Sorry, but this essay does not ring true.
It reminds me of the makeshift memorials that arise whenever there is a shooting, or the T shirts commemorating someone who died too young. Both to be forgotten in a week.

Yes, this was a terrible incident that we will probably never explain, nor be able to prevent a re-occurrence.

This is a sad time for our nation.

On the other hand, have we forgotten the victims of 9/11 and Hurrican Katrina?

How about our 3200+ dead in Afpghanistan and Iraq? And the tens of thousands wounded and disabled?

Isn't it time to get rid of the NRA.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Well, almost all gun owners aren't in a well regulated militia. A well regulated militia is NOT necessary for the security of a free state. Hence, no need for guns. Get rid of them.

"Well, almost all gun owners aren't in a well regulated militia. A well regulated militia is NOT necessary for the security of a free state. Hence, no need for guns. Get rid of them."

That is like saying we should get rid of student visas because the shooter was here on one. Guns are not the problem, crazy people are. Many people in other parts of the country use guns to hunt with and use the animals they kill to feed their family.

I am terribly sorry this happened but if you take away guns, only the criminals will have them.

My heart goes out to the families. It is truly a sad day in America.

My prayers go out to the victims and their families. Also to the entire VT community.

To anon April 17, 2007:

Isn't it a litle early to start spouting off on your personal agenda. Have some facts:

(1) The guns were stolen.
(2) The person with the guns was a criminal.
(3) The victims were unarmed.

As people have said numerous times before: When guns are criminalized only criminals have guns. And the innocent die because they are unable to defend themselves.

If we really want to reflect, I suggest that today's blog be closed to comments. We can resume the insanity tomorrow.

"Isn't it time to get rid of the NRA."

In a democratic society, it is never an appropriate time to eliminate the ability of citizens to support organizations that lobby for those citizens' preferred laws. Squelching speech with which you disagree is the solution only of dictators.

Isn't it time to get rid of the NRA.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Well, almost all gun owners aren't in a well regulated militia. A well regulated militia is NOT necessary for the security of a free state. Hence, no need for guns. Get rid of them.

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It has been about a year since a similar college shooting in Montreal. Canada has gun laws and is rarely accused of aggressive culture problems.

I don't disagree with your politic... just your timing.

Amen. Close the blog. I am a mildly frequent poster, but support this. Classes are cancelled at Tech, why not cancel this?

The press doesn't shut down, if it did, you wouldn't know what was going on in the world.

The gunman was a student who grew up in Ffx county, attended FCPS schools, and his parents still live here. He is probably a US citizen, and was definitely not on a student visa. It is quite likely that his family has lived here for generations. He doesn't represent his ethnic group, he is an individual like you and me.

Amen. Close the blog. I am a mildly frequent poster, but support this. Classes are cancelled at Tech, why not cancel this?

Posted by: to 8:40 | April 17, 2007 08:44 AM

another speech squelcher - the favored solution of tiny minds.

This has been such a shock. My heart goes out to those in the Tech community, the epicenter of this horror. What a sad time for our country as well.

I believe greatly in freedom of speech. However, I would like to respectfully ask that debate over gun laws be saved for another day. Let this be a day of honoring those those lost, hurt, and grieving, and let us reserve our comments (if any) to those that are non-provoking and kind.

What does it signify when kids see this story on the news, shrug, and say "Well, that is fewer people than died in 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina," then continue eating their Cheerios?

My university was considerably smaller than VaTech's, but was also an engineering college and an integral part of the small town it was in the middle of. Universities are open campuses, available to all and not insulated or isolated from the larger community around it. Many students live off campus and walk/bike/drive to their classes daily; this kind of tragedy is nearly impossible to prevent without turning these campuses into fortresses, which I doubt anyone wants to try and do.

Several of my coworkers and many of my wife's are alumni of VaTech; my sympathies go out to the entire campus and especially those who lost loved ones yesterday.

"Guns are not the problem, crazy people are?????" Really? Could a "crazy person" with a butter knife do this kind of damage. The scale of the carnage is a result of the fact that guns and ammo are so easily available in this country. One can search for meaning in this tragedy, but the real lesson is that WE NEED MORE RESTRICTIVE GUN LAWS.

Before today, the words "gun" and "firearm" appear in 136 posts by 63 different contributors.

Top 5 listed below:

4 Megan
5 CMAC
5 pATRICK
6 Texas Dad of 2
7 Megan's Neighbor

How are the parents out there explaining this to your children?

Was it just a bit unnerving to put them on the bus this morning with yesterday's events on your mind?

MoCo Mom, until we know more about how the shooter got his guns we won't know if more restrictive gun laws would have prevented this tragedy.

I hope and pray that the Hokies are able to pull together and be strong. The world grieves with you all.

'How are the parents out there explaining this to your children?'

the younger ones know the gun man is dead, so they are safe from him. their thoughts are now on other matters.

the older ones are presently finding out that their high school alum is among the dead. FCPS has counselors available.

my lessons for my children:

cherish your family and friends

seek community support

act quickly in a emergency to try and save yourself and others

bad stuff happens. try to cope and move forward.

My heart is broken for the grieving students and faculty, friends and family. For the parents especially.

Leslie, for a future blog, I'd like to see a discussion of the new book "The Feminine Mistake". There's an article on today's WaPo:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/12/AR2007041201849.html?hpid=smartliving

Yes, Silence, you are absolutely correct in indicating that we don't know the origin of the guns. However, it is reasonable to suppose that one of the reasons we have such an extensive market in illegal weapons is that "legal" weapons make their way in to that market when they are stolen or otherwise lost by legitimate owners. The number of weapons in circulation does not CAUSE such violence, but it does increase the probability of its occurrence.
This is an immeasurable tragedy, but we need to take a look at all factors in the tragedy -- availability of weapons is only one, but it's an important one.

I went to graduate school there,getting my degree a few years ago.

I am stunned, shocked, and a little numb.

All I can do is pray, and donate if they set up a fund to contribute to.

This morning's news says the guns (a 9mm and a .22 caliber pistol) had their serial numbers obliterated. That would make the guns impossible to sell legally, or at the least, make it difficult to identify who the legal owner was.

While this is a shocking and horrible tragedy, it is sobering to think that this type of event happens nearly every day in Iraq. Hard to imagine...

What a horrible thing to occur.

My youngest child has no idea what has happened (I didn't see fit to have the news blaring about it, endlessly) and my eldest is aware that it happened, that the shooter is dead and that there will be questions answered and more questions raised.

I doubt that there will ever be answers "enough".

I feel so badly for those who suffered losses yesterday.

Leslie wrote: "In the wake of yesterday's events, any sense of 'balance' seems difficult to find."

Well, yes and no.

Outside the immediate Blacksburg region, most people still have to work or attend school. There and everywhere else, most of us still have to do whatever we do -- continue our home lives, family responsibilities, etc. For various of us, today meals still have to be made, basic household chores done, children cared for, some people may even have to finish their income tax returns.

It's just that our hearts aren't in it.

To "not on student visa"

Looks like you need to check your facts. From CNN and NBC4:

"He has been identified as Cho Seung-Hui. He was enrolled as an undergraduate student in his senior year as an English major at Virginia Tech. Cho, 23, a South Korean native, was in the United States as a resident alien with a residence in Centerville, Va."

He was not a citizen and did not grow up in the US. As a resident alien it was illegal for him to possess a firearm of any kind.

Silence wrote: "I suggest that today's blog be closed to comments. We can resume the insanity tomorrow."

I'll refrain from calling you the vile names you richly deserve, but merely point out that it is totalitarian states that seek to suppress the free flow of information and commentary whenever something bad happens. We must keep communicating -- civilly, I hope.

Our free press -- which so many are too quick to malign -- will bring us information as it is discovered; the free market motivates them to compete to bring it to us as quickly and accurately as possible. Do they ever make mistakes? Sure. Who doesn't (besides a few sanctimonious anonymous snarkers)? But the news media try their best, which is better than most of us could do under the circumstances, and in the long run we will find out and start to understand more.

Yesterday Chris asked, in so many words, who and why (we already knew the what, when, where and how). This morning we're starting to find out answers to his questions, and this likely can bring a little more comfort.

"How are the parents out there explaining this to your children?"

My child is a college freshman (not at VA Tech, but knows people who go there) who has lived through 9/11, DC area sniper, student at same high school murdered when friend laced soda with cyanide, classmate killed when hit by car, classmate died of heroin overdose, acquaintance killed on a high school football field during a large fight involving baseball bats - the last three within the past year.

We pronounce our love and sorrow and let our child know that feelings should be discussed and not held in.

WARNING OFF TOPIC TO MEGAN

Megan-I will copy this as an OT on todays blog as well. To answer your question, the reason the new testament lessons does not apply to the old testament readings because the old testament is one interpretation of the God of Israel. Like a previous poster said the new testament represents a new covenant with the God of Israel. But it is important to note that Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish prophecy of the Messiah. The Jewish Messiah was suppose to be a great military and political leader who would restore the state of Israel. Jesus did not do this. What Christians do believe is that Jesus transcended the Jewish prophecy and offered salvation to all who believed in him. Hence creating a metaphorical state of Israel in the after life. But it is also very important to note (and often missed) is that the Christian church of today looks more similar to the ministry of St. Paul rather then Jesus' ministry. Jesus very much believed to be his follower one needed to be Jewish. What Paul found was the gentiles (non Jews) did not like the idea of circumsion (the covenant or the law of Abraham). Well they were not getting enough converts willing to be circumsized or former Jewish people. So they opened up their membership to gentiles and dropped the requirement of circumsion. Thus dropping the concept of being Jewish as a follower of Christ. Remember Jesus was considered the King of the Jews. The Christian church started to divorce their association with their early Jewish roots some time prior to the Nicean council. Then the idea of our early Jewish heritage was pretty much down played or basically lost. Again, only girls are born into the Jewish faith. Even Jewish males need to be brought into the faith through circumsion. In short the old testament pretty much depicts a hard a$$ kind of God while the new testament offers a kinder gentler approach. A little tangent too is that if you read any of the banned books of the bible, you will learn that monotheisim (belief in one God) was really an evolutionary concept. Even to Abraham (the grand father of monotheisim). There were other gods, namely Baal. There was a great battle between Baal and the God of Israel and guess who won. So the idea of one God took a while to mold into our modern belief of being a singular entity. Even the God of Israel according to Abraham resembles Baal and some of the other pagan gods of his time. So one idea is that the old testament god was just a misinterpertation of the one true God. Or simply or more accurately the relationship between the God of Israel and his people changed. Again the bible is a story about the relationship of the God of Israel and his people. It is not meant to be an historical account of events.

Posted by: adoptee | April 17, 2007 07:50 AM

So, Adoptee, where does the Greek Orthodox church fit into this? My quick skim of your last posting doesn't seem to address the schism that led to the Orthodox vs. Roman churches.

(For the record, I suspect the Orthodox Church is vastly closer to the followings of Jesus than the Roman.)

Posted by: | April 17, 2007 08:32 AM

The Orthodox split came a lot latter then the St. Paul's letter to the cornithians. St. Paul traveled to Europe to spread the gospel. He went to Greece (Cornith) aroudn 51 AD. The Orthodox church as we know it today started around the 4 century. But the Orthodox church, like the Roman church believe they are part of the Apostolic succession which begin with St. Peter. Just because they trace their roots to the ancient church, the actual division between the orthodox and the roman church occurred a lot later. Remember in the early church, it was not really functioning as one united philosophy. There were a lot of splinter groups for centuries. It is easy to see that when you read the current biblical text and the Gnostic gospels. Remember it was the ecumenical council that set up five regions of the church:Rome, Jerusalem, Constantianople, Antioch, and Alexandria. Each of the five synods had their own customs and traditions. Eventually those five branches molded into two main philosphies: Roman church and the Orthodox church. The Roman church was the Latin rite and it's seat was Rome. While the Orthodox was the Greek rite and it's seat was Byzantine. But that happened way after St. Paul's ministry. That official schism was during the 11Century.

Posted by: adoptee | April 17, 2007 09:10 AM

(For the record, I suspect the Orthodox Church is vastly closer to the followings of Jesus than the Roman.)

Posted by: | April 17, 2007 08:32 AM
I don't know about this. I know you don't have to be circumized to be part of the orthdox church. But as far as the difference in the sacraments and the history, I don't know a lot about the Orthodox church. They do keep closer to the date of Easter and other holidays. But as far as the major teaching of Jesus, I don't know if it is a lot different then the Roman church.

Posted by: adoptee | April 17, 2007 09:23 AM

Maryland Mother's instincts for handling news of the shootings age-appropriately WRT her children are right.

The National Mental Health Association offers these guidelines for helping children deal with tragedies like yesterday's at Virginia Tech, and other school shootings. Their toll-free information line is 800-969-NMHA. See more at:
http://www1.nmha.org/newsroom/system/news.vw.cfm?do=vw&rid=103

NMHA recommends:

* Talk honestly about the incident, without graphic detail, and share some of your own feelings about it. It is important for children to feel informed when they see their parents and other adults reacting to a crisis.

* Encourage children to talk about their concerns and to express their feelings. (Some children may be hesitant to initiate such conversation, so you may want to ask what the child has heard about the incident and how they feel about it.) Validate the child's feelings. Do not minimize his/her very real concerns.

* Limit television viewing for younger children, especially those of preschool age. It is very difficult for young children to process the images and messages in news reports.

* Let children know that such tragic incidents are not common, and that on a day-to-day basis schools are safe places.

* Empower children to take action about their own school safety. Encourage them child to share with an adult their concerns about school safety or specific incidents (such as bullying, threats or talk of suicide). Let children know they can talk to you anytime they feel threatened or fearful.

* Recognize what may be behind a child's behavior. Younger children may react directly to the school shootings by not wanting to attend school or participate in school-based activities. Teens and adolescents may minimize their concerns outwardly, but may become argumentative, withdrawn, or allow their school performance to decline.

* Keep the dialogue going even after media coverage subsides. Continue to talk with children about their feelings and discuss actions being taken to make schools and communities safer. Open dialogue about safety issues will encourage children to share future concerns with you or another caring adult.

* Seek help when necessary. If you are worried about a child's reaction or have ongoing concerns about his/her behavior or emotions, contact a mental health professional at school or at your community mental health center. Your local Mental Health Association can direct you to resources in your community.

"The press doesn't shut down, if it did, you wouldn't know what was going on in the world."

Closing the blog for the day is not shutting down the press.

Scarry hit the nail on the head. If you outlaw guns, then only the people who could care less about breaking yet another law- criminals- would have them. Look at DC. If you make guns illegal, then you will just create easy pickings for criminals who have guns and crime will actually flourish! You will be severely impeding a person's ability to defend themselves. The lesson learned from this tragedy should be one of firearm awareness. Guns are not going away no matter how much we wish. How best to deal with them then? Either get one of your own with which you can defend yourself and others, or be prepared to be a victim, or at most an unarmed opponent (ie- you can play hero). If you are in a group setting of like-minded people who are willing to take a big risk, you can rush a gunman. A few will no doubt be shot, but you can potentially save more lives if it is apparent that they have the means and will to kill multiple people (notice multiple weapons/ammo). Otherwise, you can abandon everyone else and make a run for it... and hope you don't get shot in the back. If the attacker is aggressive and just wants to kill the odds are in your favor if a group rushes the attacker and ends the situation ASAP- as when they are overwhelmed/killed help will be able to arrive sooner to patch you up if you have a non-lethal wound. Otherwise you leave yourself at the mercy of a lunatic gunman. It's blunt, but there it is.

Faced with a crazy man who is trying to kill as many people as possible, I would like to have my own gun, or at least a group of people willing to make a stand to show the world that we will not be intimidated.

My brother treated some of the wounded yesterday at the Blacksburg hospital. My young nephew and his HS girlfriend are planning to attend VA Tech next fall. I think we are all saddened and dismayed. I don't think shutting down a blog will help at all. People need to grieve and talk about it on their own terms. My heart goes out to all of the families touched by this tragic event. I hope we all did go home and hug our kid last night (suggestion from moxiemom). I know I did.

"He has been identified as Cho Seung-Hui. He was enrolled as an undergraduate student in his senior year as an English major at Virginia Tech. Cho, 23, a South Korean native, was in the United States as a resident alien with a residence in Centerville, Va."

Could this be true? If he was a resident alien, he should have had finger prints on file. The police could not match his finger prints to their data base.

Maybe all the VT students should be armed, so they could defend themselves. I'm sure none of them would use the guns to hurt themselves or one another any other times, right?

Hi Catlady,

Well, another reason I minimize the re-playing of the event is that it fosters learned helplessness.

Happens to grown-ups too, which is why I can remember being VERY VERY upset with my husband when he kept watching the re-play of the 9/11 footage. He refused to turn it off, he refused to go pay attention to anything else (life, for example) and it got him really upset (bipolar & borderline, let's not forget those) and it's not like he could change anything. But it made him a frighfully nasty dangerous person to be around.

Poison in, poison absorbed.

I'm not advocating ignoring the events either, simply not subjecting yourself to them endlessly. It'll make you crazy (crazier) and possibly ill.

I fail to see the logic behind the notion that tougher gun control measures lead to only criminals having guns. It gives me the impression that the US has reverted to the wild west where everyone should be carrying a weapon.

There are lunatics everywhere in the world, but the main reason that such tragedies occur here is because it is relatively easy to get a weapon.

official said Cho's backpack contained a receipt for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm pistol.

Maybe it was a legal purchase.

Chris,

I think one of the last places I'd want to see guns carried around is on a university campus. Way too many emotionally immature adults there, not to mention the possibility of drunken misbehavior involving firearms.

Here in NC it is legal to carry a licensed firearm in public, and has been for years. I have yet to hear about a situation where an armed citizen successfully stopped a crime from taking place, however, despite the constant railing by the NRA that a gun-armed society would be far more crime free.

The Washington Post website states that the gunman came to the US as a young child. He did attend FCPS schools. He is a resident alien, which is not the same thing as being here on a student visa. Someone on a student visa is here while they attend school. The visa does not allow them to live here permanently. As a resident alien, he is legally allowed to live in the US indefinitely. His family has relocated to the US. They have longstanding ties to this community. An individual committed this tragedy, not a culture, not a legal status, not an immigration classification, not a nationality or ethnic group. An individual.

According to the reports he immigrated here as a child - that may be the reason his fingerprints aren't on file (I am only guessing - but maybe there is some immigration expert among the blog contributors who would know)

Adoptee, great post! Many people forget - or don't know about - the historical underpinnings of Judeo-Christian religions.

Maryland Mother, After a while, back in 2001, it was determined that the repeated airing of the images and video of the planes hitting and the twin towers collapsing was harmful to at least younger children, who were unable to grasp the difference between repeated attacks and mere replays. While adults were able to grasp this distinction, I don't think it did us much good after a while, either -- after we'd seen them enough times to be able to remember them in our memories. I'm so sorry to hear that it affected your husband (and by extension everyone around him) the way you describe, although I'm sure his pain was authentic, too. At least with the Virginia Tech shootings, there aren't such violent iconic images to haunt us.

Adoptee, great post! Many people forget - or don't know about - the historical underpinnings of Judeo-Christian religions.

Some of us don't care, as we think it is all a crock of sh*t. Or used as la Orwell's Animal Farm, "All animals are created equal. Some are more equal than others."

Foamgnome said: "He has been identified as Cho Seung-Hui. He was enrolled as an undergraduate student in his senior year as an English major at Virginia Tech. Cho, 23, a South Korean native, was in the United States as a resident alien with a residence in Centerville, Va."

Could this be true? If he was a resident alien, he should have had finger prints on file. The police could not match his finger prints to their data base.

Posted by: foamgnome | April 17, 2007 10:12 AM

Foamgnome, my older daughter was a resident alien until Feb 27, 2002, when a law was passed that made all adopted children citizens. She never had her fingerprints taken. Her photograph is on her resident alien card, but a photograph wouldn't have helped in this case, since his face was obliterated when he shot himself.

There are lunatics everywhere in the world, but the main reason that such tragedies occur here is because it is relatively easy to get a weapon.

Posted by: MV | April 17, 2007 10:16 AM

I agree with you MV. I'm pretty sure they have crazy people in Europe too (just look at Parliament) but the reason this doesn't go down there is the limited access to guns. The nutcase in Holland who killed VanGogh, the director, had to do so with a knife.

"although I'm sure his pain was authentic, too"

It was authentic, but it was also self-inflicted.

Even if he immigrated as a child, his fingerprints should be in ICE's database because they don't change. The Immigration and Customs office is really not the most reliable government office. They do lose people's biometric information.

"An individual committed this tragedy, not a culture, not a legal status, not an immigration classification, not a nationality or ethnic group. An individual."

I made no comments about his ethnic group or nationality. You are the only one talking about that issue. I heard on the news he was here on a student visa and was using it as a comparison to saying lets get rid of guns. You need to get a grip, everything cannot be made into a race issue.

Catlady, I hadn't intended to trample on anyone's right to free speech. What I had in mind was a time-out in honor of the victims and their loved ones, and a chance for more information to come out about the shootings. There is definitely plenty of room for debate here, but it helps to know what we're debating about.

10:22: Thank you for these links. I have only skimmed them but plan on printing them out and reading in more detail. I find the historical and literal studies of faith fascinating subjects. I admit to only having about a 4 th grade understanding of the Orthodox church and the Great Schism. It is amazing what I do remember about 4 th grade studies of the Great Schism and my later 8 th grade study of the Protestant Reformation. I can still remember my diarama(sp?) of Constantianople the New Rome.

One of the lessons in the wake of last fall's school shooting at West Nickel Mines, PA., was that the families of the victims reached out to the wife and children of the dead shooter -- who were not only also bereaved but whose family member had done something so horrible that he was reviled widely by the public fort it.

While I cannot fully know the grief of any of the families of yesterday's victims, at least they are easy to sympathize with. The shooter's family are presumably good people, too, but their undoubted pain and sense of shame are beyond my comprehension.

"An individual committed this tragedy, not a culture, not a legal status, not an immigration classification, not a nationality or ethnic group. An individual."

The gun didn't kill anyone either, the person did.

We entertain ourselves with violence. Without handguns, life would be hardly exciting.

To to Chris, if that is your name... if campus law at VT students are not allowed to have guns on campus, how did THIS particular VT student have one on campus? My point is that people like this guy break laws on purpose. In fact, I'd be willing to say that most criminals know they are breaking the law... :-P
An alternative I proposed, for those unwilling to carry a gun at all times, just in case there is a crazed gunman, is for a group of the unarmed to rush said crazy gunman in hopes that they managed to overwhelm him before he kills even MORE people.
You can either be a victim, or be willing to do something about it.

There are three types of people- sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs.

Run a search for the following article (it is a great read and maybe just maybe coudl open your eyes):
On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman

I guess it shocks me that we don't finger print resident aliens. I can understand little children (and I know he came as a small child). Hmm, maybe we should change the process.

Without toy guns, how would we entertain our children? Toy Knives?

Chris you are the type of person who I would want by my side in case of emergency.

Chris,

Again, putting guns in the hands of underrage students (most freshmen/sophomores are under 21) would seem to me to increase the number of shootings, not prevent the few that take place. You're just parroting the usual NRA mantra that guns in everyone's hands will make society more safe and polite.

Down here in NC allowing citizens to carry firearms in public hasn't changed a thing wrt reducing crime.

most freshmen/sophomores are under 21

18 is the legal age in this country.

Silence wrote: "There is definitely plenty of room for debate here, but it helps to know what we're debating about."

Definitely.

Perhaps some of our chatters who WOH can let us know if they think there's too much, too little, or just the right amount of discussion of yesterday's events in their workplace -- and how they deal with it if they think it's not the right amount for them (since not everyone has an office door to close).

Those of us WAH today at least have more control over the amount of exposure: we can turn off our radio or TV, or log off news or discussion websites.

Silence, I mean this kindly, but if it sometimes hurts too much to discuss what happened yesterday, then you don't have to, or you can take a break for a while -- it's OK, because we all process these thing differently. We also need, as you say, to define the issues, especially in terms of "balancing" personal life and work -- and above all, we need not to snark, especially now.

I find two things disturbing. The first is the idea that the fact that the shooter was an immigrant is somehow relevant to anything. The Colombine shooters and Timothy McVeigh were as American as apple pie, and this did not prevent them from committing horrific crimes. Evil can come from any person. Immigrants don't have a monopoly on it.

Second, after digesting some of the horror of yesterday, I wondered how the gun industry is able to sleep at night. Like it or not, these kind of large scale massacres would not be possible without guns. Study after study has shown that the prevalence of guns in society is associated with increasing rates of suicide, homocide, and intentional deaths. Those who say that stricter gun control would only cause criminals to be the only ones with guns are seeing things clearly. Unless we become a society where everyone carries guns (like in the wild west), less strict gun control is not going to provide victims with defensive weapons anyway (they didn't yesterday), and criminals are going to have more access to guns because legal weapons are going to get lost or stolen and get into the black market where they can acquire them. There are lots of studies that show that prevalance of gun ownership is just more dangerous:

See the following website on firearms research: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/pdf/litreviewfirearmdeaths.pdf

These are some examples:

Miller M, Hemenway D. The relationship between firearms and suicide: A review of the literature. Aggression and Violent Behavior. 1999; 4:59-75.
Major Finding: This review of the scientific literature on the relationship between gun ownership levels and suicide rates finds that the vast majority of current evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for suicide in the US.

Miller M, Azrael D, Hemenway D. Household firearm ownership levels and suicide
across US regions and states, 1988-1997. Epidemiology. 2002;13: 517-24.
Major Findings: The authors analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and suicide across 50 states over a ten year period. After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, across the United States, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of suicide, particularly firearm suicide.

Miller M, Azrael D, Hemenway D. Household firearm ownership levels and homicide
rates across US regions and states, 1988-1997. American Journal of Public Health.
2002; 92: 1988-93.
Major Finding: An analysis of the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period, and found that after controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Kellermann AL, Rivara FP, Rushforth NB, et al. Gun ownership as a risk factor for
homicide in the home. New England Journal of Medicine. 1993; 329:1084-91.
Major Finding: This case-control study found that after controlling for various
characteristics (e.g. neighborhood, race, age, living alone, drug use), keeping a gun in the home was strongly associated with an increased risk of homicide victimization. Virtually all of this risk involved homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.

Wiebe DJ. Firearms in U.S. homes as a risk factor for unintentional gunshot fatality.
Accident Analysis and Prevention. 2003; 35: 711-16.
Major Findings: In this case-control study comparing subjects living in homes with guns to those without (and adjusting for covariates), the relative risk for dying from an unintentional gunshot injury was 3.7 times higher for adults living in homes with guns. Having handguns in the home was associated with the largest effect estimates.

Hemenway D, Azrael D. The relative frequency of offensive and defensive gun use: Results of a national survey. Violence and Victims. 2000; 15:257-272.
Major Findings: Using data from a national random-digit-dial telephone survey, we
examined the extent and nature of offensive gun use. Firearms are used far more often to frighten and intimidate than they are used in self-defense. All reported cases of criminal gun use, as well as many of the so-called self-defense gun uses, appear to be socially undesirable.

A followup to my last post:

While rushing an armed gunman when you are unarmed is certainly a last resort action, there are alternatives to carrying a gun yourself.

Pepper spray, mace, stun guns, etc, are all legal and can be used to incapacitate even someone with a firearm, without risking those around you. My wife carries one of the above self protection devices and knows how and when to use it if the need arises.

Something else that some of you might want to read is Tom Shales's fine article on yesterday's media coverage, "Bad News, Broken Slowly":
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/16/AR2007041601841.html?hpid=topnews

Does this news makes a practical difference for some families? Does this info tip the scales against large campuses in favor of small? Single sex and closed off vs. co-ed and open? Or even make people decide to encourage their children to skip college and go to technical school on-line or something? My child is only 3 so, although it is terrible news that certainly made me hold him a bit tighter this morning before school, it hasn't had any substantal effect on our lives.

"The first is the idea that the fact that the shooter was an immigrant is somehow relevant to anything."

Emily it has nothing to do with it, which was my point about the student visa. One thing doesn't automatically quantify the other. Allowing law abiding citizens to have guns in this country has nothing to do with this shooting. I used the example to try and show the absurdity of it, but apparently, that is lost on some people who have an agenda.

"Emily it has nothing to do with it, which was my point about the student visa. One thing doesn't automatically quantify the other. "

I beg to differ with you on this point Scarry. Study after study has shown that prevalence of gun ownership by law-abiding citizens is in fact associated with a higher rate of suicide, homocide, and unintentional deaths. Comparing gun ownership to the issuance of student visas is a ridiculous analogy.

Pepper spray, mace, stun guns

Actually, those are pretty tightly regulated. Binaca just doesn't have as far-reaching a "blast".

And no, this doesn't change my world anymore than the DC sniper incidents did. Personally, I was peeved more than anything else--as my risk of getting killed in a traffic accident is still far likelier than getting shot by anyone besides a family member. Family and friends are still the most dangerous people around.

Note: "Mace" brand and "Pepper Spray" are used interchangeably for the purposes of this article.

New York: New York residents may only purchase defense sprays including Mace or other brands of pepper spray and tear gas from licensed Firearms Dealers or licensed Pharmacists in that state.

Massachusetts: Massachusetts residents may only purchase defense sprays including Mace or other brands of pepper spray and tear gas from licensed Firearms Dealers in that state.

States Where Pepper Sprays Have Some Restrictions

Michigan: Click here for All Michigan Approved Pepper Spray & Mace. OC Pepper spray can be no stronger then a 2% concentrate (Different companies can sell different concentrations.) CS is the only Tear Gas accepted and can be no larger then 35 grams per can. No combination spray allowed.

Wisconsin: Pepper only. No Tear gas, UV Dye or combination sprays. OC can be no stronger then a 10% solution. Can must be between 15-60 grams only. Must have safety feature.

Adoptee, great post! Many people forget - or don't know about - the historical underpinnings of Judeo-Christian religions.

Posted by: MV | April 17, 2007 10:24 AM

Isn't that the truth. I always joke that the Protestant faith (my own heritage) thinks Christianity started with the reformation.

But on todays topic-Tragic says it all.

'Does this news makes a practical difference for some families? Does this info tip the scales against large campuses in favor of small?'

No. My son still wants to start at Va Tech next fall. It's still a great school.

I'm really annoyed with the media people who keep squawking about what the authorities should have done differently. They were doing the best that they could with the information that they had available.

Emily you are missing her point.

http://www.stungunsupply.com/store/catalog/Laws-And-Restrictions-sp-4.html

Pretty comprehensive list of where you can't own certain items and the penalties you will face if caught.

I disagree with today's first poster. I don't know anyone who has forgotten the victims of 9/11, Katrina, the Holocaust, Darfur, Iraq or other tragedies of the last 100 years. The reality is that life resumes. This doesn't mean the victims are forgotten by everyone.

I also think it is important to come together during a time like this. Silence is one way to honor people and events. But connecting with others via conversation and community is also important.

"On the other hand, have we forgotten the victims of 9/11 and Hurrican Katrina?

How about our 3200+ dead in Afpghanistan and Iraq? And the tens of thousands wounded and disabled?"

Or the hundreds of thousands dead in the wake of the 2004 tsunami? Oh, wait...if it doesn't happen to us, we don't care.

My nephew and his girl friend still plan on attending VA Tech this fall. I don't think you can say this one tragic event is a reflection on the school as a whole. It could have happened on any campus.

Foamgnome, legal residents are fingerprinted.

MV: Someone said their infant child who was adopted was not finger printed but was considered a legal resident. Maybe we only finger print adult legal residents.

Comparing gun ownership to the issuance of student visas is a ridiculous analogy.

I don't think it is ridculous at all. I think it is silly to say that if we got rid of guns in this country there would be no violence. I grew up around guns and the people who use them. Yes, there were accidents, but no more than car accidents, swimming accidents, or any other kind of accident. My great uncle was stabbed to death for ten dollars in an alley, no gun there. My other uncle was almost killed by a drunk driver. People kill people and if they want to kill people, they will find a way whether we outlaw guns or not.

"I don't think it is ridculous at all. I think it is silly to say that if we got rid of guns in this country there would be no violence."

I never said there would be no violence. But the violence that would happen would not be as lethal or easy as with gun ownership. Physically, it is a hell of a lot harder to stab someone to death than to shoot them from a distance. Yesterday's shooter at VT would have done vastly less damage with a knife than with a gun.

Emily, if gun owners are the ones who keep killing themselves with their own guns, it seems to me that the problem will eventually go away.

Emily, I'm with you.

But they are not just killing themselves, are they? Yesterday's shooter killed a bunch of other people also.

Emily, if gun owners are the ones who keep killing themselves with their own guns, it seems to me that the problem will eventually go away.

Posted by: | April 17, 2007 11:18 AM
Unfortunately, they don't all kill themselves to save us a trial. I know that is a very un christian attitude. But I do feel the least they can do is commit suicide.

Sure those items I mentioned are regulated; they can be used by criminals to commit a crime just as a gun can. I purchased the one I gave my wife from a gun dealer; no big deal. I showed them my ID and made the purchase.

The point I was making is they can be used to defend yourself without risking those around you, at least to the level of using a gun (in an extremely stressful condition, I might add) to defend yourself.

Might I also point out that, in cases where police have to use their guns to stop a criminal, often the number of shots fired doesn't match the number of times the criminal is hit? Sometimes those numbers are very, very different, and that's from people who train with their weapons and know how to use them very well.

Now imagine how difficult it would be to successfully use a gun in a life threatening situation by someone not trained to use it nearly as well as law enforcement officials are.

I'm not for banning all guns, but this "give everyone guns and these kinds of tragedies will stop" attitude is IMO wishful thinking.

But guns are so quick, so effective, & negates the need for lots of physical strength.

Since the dawn of time, people have found ways to kill each other. Yes, guns can make it easier to kill a large number of people in rapid succesion, but so can bombs, chemicals, a speeding truck, etc, etc.

This incident was horrific and I, for one, with my pregnant hormones, am still shedding tears over it. But no matter how awful it was/is, I'm still a strong believer in the freedom to bear arms.

Gun control is no control - and as previous posters have said again and again, when you outlaw something (no matter what it is), then the only people who have access to it are criminals!

"Pepper spray, mace, stun guns, etc, are all legal and can be used to incapacitate even someone with a firearm, without risking those around you."

Careful with this--these things are only legal in certain jurisdictions. I accidentally carried a small martial-arts keychain into the airport and got into what could've been some major trouble. And I'm talking about something more innocuous than a stun gun or pepper spray. Everything turned out okay, but the police officer notified me that the keychain is illegal in most places, even if bought from a legitimate martial arts catalog. So be careful who you advise to carry such things.

That said, almost anything can be made into a weapon. I have a string of beads that would never do much damage, but when used stings like crazy. Aimed in the right direction, it could certainly temporarily blind someone. And when I reflected on what I would do if someone managed to get into my place of business and start shooting, the rows and rows of flammable, acerbic chemicals immediately came to mind.

Guns are convenient, but they are not the only weapons.

Some folks are claiming this type of thing doesn't happen outside of the US. FYI:

Scotland, March 1996: Thomas Hamilton shoots 16 children and their teacher dead at their primary school in Dunblane, Scotland before killing himself.

Yemen, March 1997: A man with an assault rifle attacked hundreds of pupils at two schools in Sanaa, Yemen, killing six children and two others.

Germany, March 2000: A 16-year-old pupil at a private boarding school in the Bavarian town of Branneburg, shot a 57-year-old teacher, who later died from injuries.

Germany, April 2002: Seventeen people killed after a gunman - a former pupil - opens fire in a school in Erfurt, eastern Germany. He then turned the gun on himself.

It should also be noted that gun ownership is strictly regulated in all of those countries.

Another post questions why electronic key cards were not used to restrict access to the buildings on campus. Since the shooter has been identified as a student he would have had his own key card to gain access, so how would that have helped?

The only way to have stopped this madness would be to have armed guards at the door of every classroom. Is that the environment you want your children in?

Stupid pregnant brain... succession. See, I can spell. =)

"when you outlaw something (no matter what it is), then the only people who have access to it are criminals!"

Perhaps, but so what? If guns were more strictly controlled, guns would be incredibly hard to get a hold of (like in Europe and Canada). So what if a very few number of criminals got a hold of them. We would still have vastly less numbers of gun crime victims than we have now. We would also have less accidental deaths, as well as suicides and homocides between family members. In other words, we would still be much better off than we are now.

OK, history buffs please correct me if I am wrong. But wasn't the original intent on the right to bear arms was to protect people from the established government or tyranny of government. It was not meant to protect citizens from unlawful citizens.

"As people have said numerous times before: When guns are criminalized only criminals have guns. And the innocent die because they are unable to defend themselves."

This is a specious argument.

It works only if every citizen carries a gun -- a truly terrifying prospect.

The problem is the NRA and its steadfast refusal to give an inch on gun control. Few in this country advocate eliminating gun ownership altogether. Guns for hunting game have a long-established history in this country. (I personally find hunting nauseating and immoral, but I do recognize the right of a citizen to have a hunting rifle if he wants one.)

But the NRA refuses to accept the idea that other kinds of guns should require tight controls or be unavailable to non-military personnel.

Why does anyone outside of the military and law enforcement need an automatic weapon? And why shouldn't every gun-owning person be required to register with the state? You have to have a license to drive a car; why not to own and shoot a gun? (Or does the NRA think that, if the founding fathers had had a crystal ball, they would have included automobiles in the Second Amendment as essential to a "well-regulated militia"?)

If the NRA would stop trying to stifle the national conversation about what makes for reasonable gun laws, if it would stop resisting every effort to bring sanity to the gun culture in this country (why, in god's name, shouldn't buyers at gun shows have to wait for a security check?), then maybe legislation could be crafted that protects the majority while guaranteeing the minority a regulated right to own a gun.

Scarry, it is also silly to say that by arming everyone that violence would be reduced. As Emily posted, the evidence points to the contrary.

"But wasn't the original intent on the right to bear arms was to protect people from the established government or tyranny of government."

Yes, but when the government lets child molesters, rapist, and murders out of jail aren't you protecting yourself from their tyranny?

Check out www.Boortz.com for a great discussion regarding why outlawing guns doesn't work so well.

Click on neal's nuze

Ok, to those of you who think that we ought to have tighter regulations on guns -what would the restrictions be? No private citizen is allowed to have guns? My father, who has been an avid hunter for over 40 years, who has never pointed a gun at a human in his life, would he have to give up his rifles?

Would police officers be allowed to carry them? Our armed forces?

I'm not trying to be glib, I'm just honestly wondering where the line would be. Should we be like England, and have our "Bobbies" just carry batons?

Hey Adoptee - thank you! Clearly I need to find some good books on the history of christianity, it's interesting stuff.

"But wasn't the original intent on the right to bear arms was to protect people from the established government or tyranny of government."

Yes, but when the government lets child molesters, rapist, and murders out of jail aren't you protecting yourself from their tyranny?

Posted by: | April 17, 2007 11:40 AM
Now come on. Do you really think the goverment does that on purpose or is it more likely a weakness in our judicial branch and a lack of evidence collected from the law enforcement agencies?

John L, you are putting words in my mouth. I am not parroting anyone. I merely pointed out the options available to ANYONE in life: being armed and resisting, not being armed and resisting, not resisting, or running away. As guns are not going away, the choice as to which option you want to embrace are up to you.

Again, read the article
On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman

It puts everything in perspective.

I have the utmost respect for people who choose a life of non-violence, but I for one would kick myself eternally if I had a chance to do something to save a life and did not do it- be it armed or unarmed. Why be a sheep who only looks to others for help? I once ran 3/4 mile with a hole in my lung. You know what? It sucked and hurt like hades, but I finished running. It sure beat lying down and dying because nobody was around to help me. Baa all you want. The sad truth is, there is not always someone there to help you and you may have to face a situation alone in life. Do you have the mindset to overcome that situation, or will you crumble? Again, I have the utmost respect for people who choose a nonviolent life, or feel safe relying on others for protection, and I pray they may live a long peaceful and productive existence, but that is not the same as ignoring the possibility of something going wrong.

My pitty is for those who habitually lash out at the sheepdogs and say they are not needed. Someday such people, if they have their way, will find themselves defenseless and alone- with no training or resources available to fix things... what would you do? Lay down and die? Run away if possible?

Furthermore, stun guns are not legal in all states/ counties. I did my research before moving to the area and wanted to get my wife something... Nor are they necessarily effective. If I have a gun and you have a stun gun, guess who is going down first if there is even a few feet between us? Possibly you can cover the distance, maybe even with a gunshot wound, but unless you have a group of likeminded people willing to make a stand, even more people are going to be dead.

As far as "can be used to incapacitate even someone with a firearm, without risking those around you." Anything you choose to do in the face of a gunman puts yourself at risk. Don't delude yourself. If you want to play hero, armed with even another gun, you are taking a risk and putting others at risk depending on the mental state of the gunman. Resistance of any form is about taking a risk to take control of a situation and mitigate the overall risk that a mad gunman represents. Pepper spray? Oh yes, maybe effective- IF you are able to take the time to use it before or after getting shot- depending on your injury and willingness/ ability to keep moving with one for the sake of others. Personally, I've had habanerro in my eyes. It hurt like hades, but would not have stopped me from doing something I was focused on doing- which to place myself in the mind of a sick individual with a gun would have been an act of retaliation. In reality, a few deep breaths allowed me to clear my mind and seek milk to pour in my eyes.

Too many movies fights for you- if you are going up against an armed oponent odds are you will receive a life threatening injury. To me, I'd risk it if it meant taking down an armed oponent who was intent on murdering myself and those around me anyway. Real fights are over in seconds or minutes and nobody walks away without serious damage. So kiss your pepper spray before you go to bed, but remember, determination to overcome a situation is your ultimate weapon. I'll go down snarling with tooth and nail and nobody will ever hear a baa from me. Do what you like, but don't insult those who you may one day rely on for protection, it's rude. ;-P

MV I didn't say to arm everyone. I don't own a gun, but people have the right to if they want to. What about the people who use it to hunt for food. A very real issue where I come from and out west.

I am not sure what kind of restrictions would work. But it should be at least as hard to get a gun as it is to get a driver's license. I wouldn't go so far as to keep policemen from having them. I also think it should be okay to hunt. I don't see the need for anyone to have automatic weapons.

scarry,

gun control does not mean outlawing all guns. I am in favor of outlawing automatic and semi-automatic guns. They are not necessary for hunting or self-protection.

"(I personally find hunting nauseating and immoral, but I do recognize the right of a citizen to have a hunting rifle if he wants one.)"

I find the idea of hungry kids nauseating too.

Foamgnome, as I said, ICE is not good in following their own rules or in making sure that their files are in order.

Scarry, I'm right there with you. My father has been a hunter his whole life, and he regularly gives the animals that he kills to local shelters, and they use that meat to feed countless people who would otherwise not have food.

I was taught how to use a gun when I was a small child. I'm a decent shot. Do I own a gun? No. But am I gonna tell another law-abiding citizen that he shouldn't? Heck no.

dlm79 --

For answers to your questions on line-drawing, please see my post at 11:38.

Everyone keeps saying how easy it is to get a gun. Aren't there waiting periods and background checks and things? Maybe what we need is stricter observation (if that's the right word) on shops that sell guns, to make sure they're following the rules.

I find the idea of hungry kids nauseating too.

Posted by: scarry | April 17, 2007 11:47 AM

Vegetarianism.

Scarry I think that you're talking about two issues: the right to have a handgun for hunting purposes, and the right to bear arms period. While I don't agree with hunting per se, I recognize that people have a right to hunt to feed their families. I do, however, think that we should have tougher gun control in this country...and I don't think that everybody should be armed.

It is true, that if we were all vegetarians, we could vastly reduce the number of hungry people in the world. It takes a lot more resources to raise beef than to grow crops that will feed people more efficiently.

pittypat ~ I can agree with you in part. Automatic weapons are probably a little excessive for your every day Joe.
But law-abiding citizens (and this is what I keep coming back to) DO register their guns and DO have permits and DO follow the rules. So your argument about having a license to own a gun doesn't really hold up.

It is true, that if we were all vegetarians, we could vastly reduce the number of hungry people in the world. It takes a lot more resources to raise beef than to grow crops that will feed people more efficiently.

Posted by: | April 17, 2007 11:52 AM
This is true. But veggies burgers just do not taste as good as beef hamburgers.

I find the idea of hungry kids nauseating too.

Posted by: scarry | April 17, 2007 11:47 AM

Vegetarianism.

Wow that is so easy. I wish I would have thought of that. Let me go tell all the poor people back home about it. Any suggestions on where they should get their free protien for half the year?

It takes a lot more resources to raise beef than to grow crops that will feed people more efficiently.

Cows aren't wild. I am talking about deer, elk, rabbit, and turkey.

No, I don't think that you have the right to an automatic weapon. I don't know anyone who has one.

All those pro-gun people arguing for guns -- you are no doubt responsible with your weaponry. But to believe that everyone out there would be just like you -- locking up your weapon, separating ammo from the weapon, gun safety, etc. is, as many have pointed out, wishful thinking.

Do you really want your preschool teacher to be packing, for example? Perhaps she gets a little too fed up with little Johnny one day and threatens him by showing him the gun in her drawer. Next thing you know, little Johnny sneaks into class during lunch, finds the gun and accidentally kills himself.

A crazy, but entirely possible scenario if everyone was encouraged to have guns. Guns are not a "tool". They are meant to kill, and have no other purpose.

Think about cars. Some of us are responsible drivers. Some are not. It's easy to accidentally kill someone when you are driving a car, particularly when you are drunk. Cars are not weapons, but they are more highly regulated than guns.

from the bleakly named childdeathreview

n 2000, 174 children (0-18) in the United States died from unintentional firearm-related injuries. Unintentional injuries are usually caused when children play with guns or are hunting.

Unintentional injuries from firearms represent less than two percent of all firearm deaths in the U.S. But of this two percent, children and adolescents are involved in 55% of the deaths. The majority of the injuries occur to children playing with or showing the weapons to friends. The easy availability of firearms is believed to be the number one risk factor for unintentional firearm deaths.

--------------------------------

I am not sure how to search for how many children are protected by gun owners... that seems much more difficult to track.

I'm just numb. I graduated from VT in 1998. Like catlady said, we go on. It's hard, and I put one foot in front of the other. I don't know why it is affecting me so. It just hurts, a lot.

Where are criminals getting their guns? I strongly believe that at some point in time most of the guns in the hands of criminals were obtained in a legal manner.

"What about the people who use it to hunt for food. A very real issue where I come from and out west."

And such and important need for living in out here.

How many people die each year in vehicle related accidents?

Let's ban cars!

The poor people back home eat what they kill? That's news to me. The poor people back home where I came from eat more McDonald's than wild game.

It's a long-standing fact that it costs more to raise beef for human consumption than wheat, vegetables, and legumes. A veggie burger may not taste the same as a beef burger (I wouldn't know), but it's inherently healthier. I don't see the point of defending the beef industry, with our obesity problems the way they are. That's like getting a cavity filled while eating Skittles.

Disclaimer: I am NOT now, nor have I ever been, Blog Stats -- I clearly lack his/her computer skills. Also, my knowledge of foreign languages is limited to those using the Roman alphabet (in which English is written), and it's pretty easy to pick out the name of Virginia Tech in any of these languages.

So, last night and again just now, I took a quick check of all the Roman-Alphabet international pages offered by Google News to see if the Virginia Tech shootings were being reported in other countries.

Last night, all but one page carried the story, and all but one of those that did carry it had it in the upper two screenfuls.

Just now, every single page carried the story, and all but one of them had it in the top screenful (the one that appears when you open the page).

Interestingly, this morning some nations were featuring the fact that the suspect was a Virginia Tech student, while others were headlining his national origin. A few merely stated that the suspect had been identified.

So, this is not merely a domestic news story, but one of worldwide concern.

And such and important need for living in out here.

What?

As far as outlawing guns, again, only criminals will have them. It may be trite, but it is true. There are too many that exist right now to get rid of them all... In any case do you honestly think they are that complex a piece of machinery that illegally manufacturing them could not easily be done? Besides, a bullet is little more than gunpowder in a shell with a projectile of lead... Maybe we will go back to muskets and swords? In "honest" society there might be fewer mass casualty incidents, and those so armed with swords might more easily overpower a crazed lone gunman with an automatic or semi-automatic... but again such a scenerio involves a criminal with an illegal weapon to begin with. If you take away EVERYONE'S option to defend themselves, you create an environment in which there will be a greater time gap between when a gunman has control, and when authorities have control... meaning more time for the gunman to kill. Then you forget the possibility of foreign hostility. At present everyone resents the America where everyone can have a gun. What happens when that image goes away? Do we proclaim our vulnerability- even if it is imagined- and thus invite attacks? Terror is coming anyway... live in denial all you want.

"n 2000, 174 children (0-18) in the United States died from unintentional firearm-related injuries."

That's more than 5 times the number of people who were killed yesterday. And somehow, we don't have a day of national mourning for these tragic deaths, because they happen one by one. Even so, their obscurity makes them no less tragic than yesterday's killings. Perhaps even more so, because they are almost unrecognized.

For anyone who's interested:

"Dr. David Schonfeld, Director of the National Center for School Crisis and Bereavement, will be online Tuesday, April 17, at 1 p.m. to discuss how the survivors of the Virginia Tech shootings will cope and grieve, and what can be done to help them."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2007/04/16/DI2007041601159.html

Well Scarry, I can certainly see supplementing their diet via hunting, but if they are that poor, are they also receiving food from the food bank, or via WIC or something?

As for guns, well, they make it a lot easier to take down deer, squirrels, geese, people, etc. from a distance. But not everyone really needs them around the house.

If interested, I found this:

Combining your plant proteins at each meal will ensure that you get all of the essential amino acids every day. Here are some combinations of plant proteins that will provide you with all of the amino acids you need:

Grains plus legumes. Try black beans and rice.
Nuts and seeds plus legumes. Lentil soup with a serving of almonds on the side.
Corn plus legumes. Try pinto beans in a corn tortilla.
There are lots of possible combinations.
Try whole grain pasta tossed with peas, almonds, and your favorite sauce.
Whole wheat toast with peanut butter will give you a complete protein.
Bean soup with whole grain crackers.
Corn tortillas with refried beans and rice.

"Where are criminals getting their guns? I strongly believe that at some point in time most of the guns in the hands of criminals were obtained in a legal manner."

Where do drug users get their illegal drugs?

Wow that is so easy. I wish I would have thought of that. Let me go tell all the poor people back home about it. Any suggestions on where they should get their free protien for half the year?

Posted by: scarry | April 17, 2007 11:55 AM

Start planting their gardens now, and put up surplus. Give other surplus to family, friends, neighbors, foodbanks.

"And such and important need for living in out here.

What? "

Sorry, one-handed typing.

Regarding the comment "What about the people who use it to hunt for food. A very real issue where I come from and out west."

And such an important need for living out here.

This is true. But veggies burgers just do not taste as good as beef hamburgers.

Posted by: foamgnome | April 17, 2007 11:54 AM

Oh you poor thing.

The poor people back home eat what they kill? That's news to me. The poor people back home where I came from eat more McDonald's than wild game.

Yes, Mona deer season is a big deal where I come from. Dead deer in trucks, in yards, etc. (yuck) Although it does taste good is prepared right.

Lots of people try to get two, including my brother, so he can give one away to people who want it. I had a professor in college who told our class one time that elk kept her family alive one winter when her husband was out of a job.

for scarry, you're making me hungry! It's true, you can get protein from a vegetarian diet. I had anemia and wasn't getting enough protein BEFORE I became veg, and now I get plenty. The problem was, I wasn't taking care of my body and making sure I got enough nutrients, and now I do. That is something we should all be doing, vegetarian or not, instead of mindlessly throwing french fries and chicken nuggets down our collective gullet.

And such an important need for living out here.

Are you being sarcastic?

I am talking about deer, elk, rabbit, and turkey.

No, I don't think that you have the right to an automatic weapon. I don't know anyone who has one.

Posted by: scarry | April 17, 2007 11:58 AM

You could use an automatic weapon to turn those animals into fresh hamburger for Foamgnome.

Around here, more deer are killed by running in front of cars than are killed by hunters.

But it's a real pain to get the paperwork done so you can take them off to be processed. Not to mention difficult if your car has been totalled.

Then again, there seems to be an almost limitless supply of unwanted cats & dogs.

Dim 79 suggested that we ought to ban cars because people are killed in automobile accidents. But is killing the PURPOSE of automobiles? No, the purpose is to transport people. By contrast, the PURPOSE of a gun is to kill. Period. Whether it is used in a homocide, suicide, self-defense, battlefield, that is its sole purpose. That is the difference.

Considering the tragic and contemplative day today is, I thought to offer the following:

Desiderata
===========
Go placidly amid the noise and haste and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender, be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly and listen to others,
even the dull and ignorant; they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others you may become vain or bitter,for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.
Keep interested in your career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs,for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is. Many persons strive for high ideals and everywhere life is full of heroism.
Be yourself.
Especially do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love,
for in the face of all aridity and disappointment
it is as perennial as the grass.
Take kindly the counsel of the years,
gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline be gentle with yourself.
You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars.
You have a right to be here.
And whether it is clear to you or not,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive him to be,
and whatever your labours and aspirations in the noisy confusion of life,
keep peace with your soul.
With all its sham and drudgery and broken dreams
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

---The poor people back home eat what they kill? That's news to me. The poor people back home where I came from eat more McDonald's than wild game.

Yes, Mona deer season is a big deal where I come from. Dead deer in trucks, in yards, etc. (yuck) Although it does taste good is prepared right.

Lots of people try to get two, including my brother, so he can give one away to people who want it. I had a professor in college who told our class one time that elk kept her family alive one winter when her husband was out of a job.---

That is just sad. It's sad that no one is tackling poverty in this country.

"Let's ban cars!"

Yeah! But only famblee vans and S-MOO-Vs. They're the worst drivers of all, those EntitleMoos!

By contrast, the PURPOSE of a gun is to kill. Period.

Unless you are using rubber bullets. Then the purpose is to stop you.

But you know--it also takes the KNOWLEDGE that a gun will kill you to do it quickly. The Maori warriors were getting peppered with bullets and it took a lot to get them to drop--they just kept on coming. Until they figured out that those little things would kill you. That slowed them up considerably.

Montgomery Mom - I was being sarcastic. Sheesh.

My main point is - and has been - that we shouldn't go overboard.

Especially not now, when so many of us are grieving and the natural reaction is to lash out.

i want gun control, but I certainly want people to have access to rifles, long guns for hunting and self-protection in their homes. I came VERY close to getting such a weapon after hearing about the terrible behavior of police officers "defending" their town from those trying to flee the chaos and tragedy of New Orleans.

So I am pro-"long" gun, and anti- handgun. If we could eliminate all handguns, it would be great-- and I'm talking about police officers too. but that's a pipe dream, so instead, I'm in favor of very tightly regulating handgun ownership-- as in, if you have one, you are required to attend training every month or so.

I have great respect for police officers-- i used to be one-- but I know all too well that they are only human.

Why haven't I taken that step to purchase a long gun for my house? I just feel like it would change something in the home-- that it would bring in powerful negative energy. It would be like adding a new member to the household, even as it lies unloaded in the attic-- but waiting for some tragedy to befall my little world where it can then be put to terrible use. Isn't there some maxim for fiction writers that you don't describe a weapon in a novel without being aware that the reader will expect that weapon to be used at some point? I'm not ready yet to have the element written in the book of my life.

The Maori warriors were getting peppered with bullets and it took a lot to get them to drop--they just kept on coming. Until they figured out that those little things would kill you. That slowed them up considerably.

Posted by: | April 17, 2007 12:12 PM

Let's hear it for genocide.

"If I have a gun and you have a stun gun, guess who is going down first if there is even a few feet between us?"

That depends, Chris. Are you aiming the gun at me when this little scenario starts? Are we both standing up? Are you distracted? Am I within 20' and have a clear path to you? What kind of gun are you armed with? Let me set the conditions and I'll bet on me. I also noticed you didn't mention the various incapacitant sprays; give me one of those and my odds go up even more.

Self defense experts will tell you that a gun isn't a panacea to your safety and can actually make you less safe (false confidence). Under certain conditions, an assailant that can get within 20' of you can reach you before you can aim the gun at him, much less shoot him. If he's got a knife, you could be as dead as if you didn't have the gun.

And yes, I've read that article. Let me just say I've had to act in a stressful situation, and I found I wasn't a sheep.

Chris, umm, aren't you extrapolating a little too much - it's quite a jump from gun-control laws to inviting terrorism attacks...

Also, I think you're assuming, as someone else noted, that everyone (who owns or will own a gun) is sensible and trained in the use of firearms, and doesn't panic under pressure (say, when confronted by a gunman or in other potentially threatening situations). But that, I don't believe, is the case.

You sound trained (military, etc) and have the mental preparedness for that kind of situation, but most people don't, which is, I think, is the problem.

You can still get black-powder guns via mail order. No background check necessary.

50 caliber bullets have a LOT of stopping power.

You spend way too much time worrying. Get on with your daily life instead.

"Any suggestions on where they should get their free protien for half the year?"

Scarry,

I wasn't the poster who suggested vegetarianism, but I can certainly answer your question.

Beans.

Dried beans are one of the cheapest food sources and one of the best protein sources humans can eat.

Beans provide high-quality protein equal to that of animal flesh but have none of the artery-clogging fat that makes meat such a nutritional hazard.

So, tell the folks back home that dried beans are the way to go. I've got oodles of recipes to get them started!

Now is not the time for the gun control debate or to place blame on anyone. Now is the time to hug your loved ones and appreciate those around you. There will be time for reconstructing events and debating the cause after the dead are buried.

Chris,

I'm not trying to get into a male sexual organ waving contest with you over this issue. You made it clear in your first post that in your opinion, armed citizens would have been able to stop this tragedy from happening yesterday:

"Guns are not going away no matter how much we wish. How best to deal with them then? Either get one of your own with which you can defend yourself and others, or be prepared to be a victim, or at most an unarmed opponent (ie- you can play hero)."

Obviously 'playing hero' (taking on a gunman unarmed) was a poor second choice to you, but you left out the nonlethal options I suggested. As for what I'd have done, since I wasn't there I don't know, but I doubt I'd have passively stood around waiting to die (sheep).

How you went from my comments to your last paragraph in your long response back to me I don't know, but that paragraph certainly looks like you're making some comments that are both condescending and patronizing. Of course you know nothing about me, but they were still pretty insulting.

"Kiss my pepper spray",
"too many movie fights for you",
"don't insult those who you may one day rely on for protection, it's rude"

How about taking a deep breath yourself?

Great post, HappyDad...sure seems like the current discussion can wait.

Out of respect, if nothing else.