First again!

Yesterday I commented about how everyone says they saw warning signs after these tragedies, and yet nothing is ever done to identify these people before they explode.

The same things being said about Cho now were said about the Columbine boys.

Of 1000 people who display the warning signs seen in the VT suspect and the Columbine students, there is one shooter for 999 people who go on to live antisocial but generally noncriminal lives. We're very bad at figuring out who will become dangerous and who will not. In a society that values civil liberties, it's impossible to lock up or otherwise restrict disturbed folks who have violent fantasies because they *might* do something terrible in the future unless they've made specific threats. Although I will grant you that stalking several women moves him way up near the top of the potentially dangerous list, if he didn't hurt them (and wasn't convicted of a crime), there still isn't much anyone can do.

Yes, when I was in HS I told my parents one of my classmates threatened to commit suicide. My mother addressed it immediately with the school counselors who contacted the family. I once called child protective services based on a license plate number. I saw a mother repeatedly smack a preteen child in the head with a metal can. I don't know the outcome but I do know that they found the families name and address in a matter of minutes and a social worker was called. It takes a village to raise a child and a village to protect our citizens. I have called the police on a domestic violence case. That was the scariest thing because I wasn't sure they would come and try to hurt me. But me and my neighbors both called the police on a man beating up his wife. I never considered my actions retaliation. I considered it helping them. They clearly needed some interaction from professionals.

I think you need to be careful about advocating for contacting authorities for "red flags". What are your "red flags" may be not so abnormal or just different behavior (different culture, personality, etc). People with epilepsy are not a danger to you unless they are behind the wheel of a car. You could have had a bit more compassion.

Cho's english teacher was right about referring the guy to counseling and the school should have followed up on it. Shame on them. Writing disturbing essays in class for the teacher to see is a cry for help and should have been heeded. I'm guessing the guy was severely depressed and had a psychotic break.

But for every one sicko like this kid, there are thousands whose behavior may seem wierd, but who do not kill people. It's a tough thing. If every weird person were reported to authorities, there would be a lot of trampling of human rights.

And Leslie, with regard to the violent kid at your kid's school---if what you say is true, then he is assaulting other children and needs to be either expelled from that school or to require a one-on-one adult with him to ensure the safety of others. This isn't a "red-flag" moment, this is a felony and other children are getting hurt. One of my kids was in a camp at the age of 5. Another child bit him, not once, but twice. I told the camp that this is abnormal behavior for a 5 year old and that my child's safety should be their concern (I suspect that child was autistic or developmentally delayed). My concerns were not heeded so I took him out of that camp. If your school refuses to protect children from the violent kid, then you need to take your kid out.

I think people will always say "what if". I feel for the families of the victims and for the killer's family as well. He ruined certainly ruined his parents lives. They'll always be pariahs and I'm sure they feel intense guilt.

One Thanksgiving evening, as my wife and I drove back from a friend's home, we got behind a car operated by an obviously drunk driver. He was up on the curb, weaving from side to side, etc. We called the police with the license number, which happened to be one of the distinctive NC legislature's plates. The police refused to even check on him, much less give him a citation!

I agree that the majority of people who exhibit troubling signs do not end up killing people. However, it seems that US society in general has gotten a lot more "not my business" when it comes to other people and their troubles, especially if it involves actually taking action for someone's benefit.

Notice what the instructor told the reporters, that she went to the police about Cho, and they said he didn't do anything that warranted an investigation. Then she wanted him to go to counseling, but she couldn't force him to do so (expulsion from school wasn't an option?). When 90% of his class refuses to attend for fear of him, that should have been enough for the school to have done more than just suggest counseling for him.

I agree with Baltimore. The situations that foamgame describes are no brainers. Someone physically assaulting someone should be reported to police.

But where there is a dilemma is reporting someone for violent essays. As Baltimore has said, there may be 1000 people who write disturbing things so how do you decided who is violent and who is not. It seems to me that there wasn't anyone to put together the stalking, the writings and the gun purchase. The kid was not living at home so perhaps his parents were not aware of his issues. Tough situation.

And for those of you who are NRA supporters--this kid purchased his guns legally. He had no prior record so no "red flags. Further he purchased guns whose only purpose is to kill humans (as opposed to rifles used for hunting). Pretty sad that we are so gun happy in this country. As long as these people- killing devices are legal, we will have mass killings and suicides. IF the boy had a knife instead, many more people would be alive today.

The best book to read on this topic is Gavin de Becker's "The Gift of Fear." He gives detailed information on how to distinguish between a run-of-the-mill oddball and someone who intends to do harm to himself or others. Nearly 100% of the time, the harmful people give off plenty of warning signs. This kind of thing almost never happens without plenty of warning (I believe de Becker says that it actually NEVER happens without plenty of warning, but I can't remember exactly).

The policies of various institutions on how to deal with a harmful individual may vary, but the indicators they put forth rarely do. It's worthwhile to learn what they are.

Leslie doing her me-me-me act again. She thinks the mentally ill are "them" not "us". She presents examples in terms of her own fears, showing no concern for the people who are sick. For her, it's what threat is someone else's mental illness to her safety? Almost always, none at all. She evidently has no idea what it's like for a family to have to cope for a lifetime with a mentally ill spouse, child, sibling or even parent, but without violating that person's civil rights, and no sympathy from others for them (and the sick person often is ungrateful). Serious mental illness is a lot more common than Leslie imagines, and can strike any family, even elite ones (think of that Dupont heir who murdered an Olympic wrestler). It's hard for relatives when social services are overloaded, extreme fundamentalist ministers prescribe religion to cast out the devil (only solution acceptable to my relative's pastor), and other family members are embarrassed and weary of the sick person's behavior and refuse to be bothered anymore. Leslie, talk to mental health experts about how these problems impact society and families before you write this stuff, instead of tossing off your ignorance and prejudices on a subject you seem to know nothing about.

I reorted one of these "red flag" persons at work and was told to "mind my own business"!

Kay Redfield Jamison's book, An Unquiet Mind, is a helpful resource for anyone who's interested in exploring mental health issues. Jamison brings her own unique perspective to bear, as she not only has the psychological/psychiatric training, but has first hand experience with bipolar disorder.

Now that the tragedy has taken place, there are people coming out of the woodwork saying Cho's behavior was strange. None of these actions on their own were enough to cause concern, but taken all together they start adding up to indicate Cho had some serious problems.

It wasn't just the letters and plays; his interactions with his roommates (actually he NO interaction with them), the lack of responses to people he met on the street, his actions in the classrooms, the tendency of people to consider him dangerous (when 63 out of 70 students refuse to go to a class he attends, that's a warning sign), his refusal to get counseling, possible medical treatment for mental problems (depression), etc, if they had somehow been all put together, could have identified him as a time bomb with a short fuse, and perhaps he could have gotten some help before it was too late.

"Regular, but anonymous" brings up some good points. It is a difficult balance between someone's rights and the protection of society.

And I feel for this kid's parents. I just read that the guy was on a psychiatric medication so I assume he was getting help at some point. Mental illness is so stigmatized in this country that those who need help (e.g. depressed males) don't seek it. I agree with you Reg, but anon that there should be more compassion for the mentally ill. But don't expect a lot from Leslie, she was upset that there was an epileptic in her workplace. Her first concern was for herself and not for the welfare of her co-worker. How can you expect someone like that to even consider compassion for the mentally ill?

I wish I could remember the cite, but there's currently a case in court regarding an undergrad student who committed suicide. The parents are suing the school for "not having done more" - including contacting the parents.

But getting help for university students who are under pressure can be particularly dicey. LEgally, our "college kids" are adults, and they have a right to privacy which precludes contacting family members and parents when you see a "kid" who needs help. All you can really do is attempt to persuade the student to get the help they need -- unless the person is seen as a danger to themselves or others, but as you've all already pointed out, that's a pretty tough call. A good friend of mine had a situation where the student's parents actually called her (she's a professor) and asked her point blank "What's wrong with my child? why are his grades slipping" and she was not legally allowed to tell them that they might consider substance abuse as a possible explanation.

It might be that the Virginia Tech student's teachers, RA, TA's and the like DID see something but weren't allowed to do anything with the information that they had, due to legal issues and so forth.

John L, you're right. When put all together, this boy appears very disturbing. But whose responsiblity is it to put it all together? That's the tough question.

I would caution you about calling extreme shyness a red flag. Extreme shyness is not uncommon and the vast majority of those with this are not angry or violent. I worry more about people who are depressed, are fixated on violent games and who buy guns. The purchase of guns and the stalking are the behaviors that should have received more attention.

Been down this dark and twisted road before. Here's what it took to get my husband committed: he had to either present an imminent threat to himself or others. He had to have a plan to kill himself, or to kill others. The burden of proof was upon me and his psychiatrist--not him. And he could sign himself out after 72 hours.

Cheo had the cover of a creative writing class.

How much of what he wrote is significantly different from some of the slasher/horror films people cough up money to view? What's the big difference between him and a script-writer? A few years of living, a paycheck?

Involuntary admissions are difficult to obtain, and to mandate someone stay put.

Again, I feel badly for his victims, I also feel badly for his family. This is not the sort of thing that anyone I know hoped and dreamed of in the future, when looking at our newborn child.

I would like to second Gavin De Becker's book. I would also like to put in a plug for Lundy Bancroft's book as well (it's aimed at women in abusive intimate relationships, sorry gents).

"An Unquiet Mind" is an interesting read and well-written, but it's very often twisted into "I'm sick, I can't be held responsible", despite Jamison's own discussions of how violent she got at one point (it took several grown men to hold her down in the midst of a manic episode--she's NOT a big woman!), how she had to go about re-paying money that was squandered (her brother bailed her out, more than once), that relationships ended, badly; how hard she fought against taking the lithium that enables her to function...

My husband tries to use it as a modern version of "The devil made me do it!" Why? Because it suits him to do so. I don't put up with it.

"I Hate You! Don't Leave Me!" by Randi Krieger is another good book (borderline personality disorder) too.

There are those who feel that BPD is PTSD writ large; or possibly atypical BP.

Toe-may-toe, toe-mah-toe. The behavior still needs to be addressed.

As for those who live with the mentally ill, I thought Anne Sheffield's books were useful. I'm not as enamored of Julie Fast's book--as to me it smacks of passing the buck to the family of the individual. But that may simply be due to my BPI & BPD husband's habit of trying to dump everything on me, then blaming me for his unhappiness.

Of course, every day we play, Wheel! Of! Personality! Sadly, it seems to land on bankrupt more than jackpot. Darn.

Just yesterday when I was driving home, I noticed a driver who seemed to be driving dangerously. He ran up on me and tailgated. He did pass me and then fell behind me again. I though that he was messing with me. I got ahead of him again, by this time I was determined to stay ahead of him. I kept watching, he was tailgating others and driving on the shoulder. For the first time in some 20 years of commuting, I called 911. The state police asked if I were calling about the tan truck. I said yes. The trooper said they were already told and on their way. I just wish I had copied his tag number. Although I feel sure that someone else had.

We all have to watch out for ourselves and others!

Regular but anonymous, you are the voice of reason.

Leslie doesn't know what she is talking about. In Leslie's world, it's all about Leslie.

First off, hindsight is always 20/20. Now, what to do when we see those red flags? Maybe we should drop this recurring attitude of "when I notice a problem, I'll assume it's someone else's problem, then show anger when it's not dealt with". Why does an ill/angry/anti-social co-worker need to be reported to someone else and then ignored by the person who saw the cry for help? What the VT professor did was admirable. She showed the balance that many of us need. She took a personal interest in the well-being of another human, while keeping keeping her personal safety/professional safety by also reporting it to a higher authority. Imagine what could have happened if every person, who has retrospectively quoted on this young man's mental state, had done that as well. There is no guarantee that it would have changed anything in this case, but living a life with the mindset of help instead of blame would be much more beneficial to every person with a cry for help, not matter how small.

Okay, last thing I'll write and then I'm going to shut up (do I hear wild applause?).

"But don't expect a lot from Leslie, she was upset that there was an epileptic in her workplace."

In Leslie's defense, she didn't know at first that the person was epileptic, she knew he behaving bizarrely, she's alone, and it's frightening; and if he wasn't monitoring himself (taking his meds and eating regularly), he was endangering himself and others. That's irresponsible.

Hell, that's pretty common with people who are told to lose some weight too, or with teenagers with type I diabetes. Many of them get balky about it.

This is something ELSE that sticks in my craw. For all the attention paid to the person who is mentally ill, there is next-to-none for their family. As for the children of the mentally ill, forget it. Might as well push them off a cliff and ignore them. The privacy of the parent is all the matters--the safety of the family is a FAR distant second. If they matter at all. Mostly we don't.

I've had to inform my husband's pdoc that we had more than ONE child. After TWO years of seeing the pdoc.

NAMI still doesn't have a peer-group for the kids of mentally ill parent(s).

But there is a web site in Australia that addresses them. Children of Mentally Ill Consumers (COMIC).

When I was a teacher, there was one kid who scared me from the get-go. He was very angry and unbelievably vicious. He never attacked anyone physically in my presence, but he did go after kids verbally and he would go right for the jugular. Usually had them crying within a minute and then he'd laugh. He was in a foster home, and the conference I had with his foster mother revealed that I was unlikely to find an ally there. The school administration knew of this kid because I certainly wasn't the first teacher to report problems. About 2 months before the end of the school year, he broke into the school over a weekend and tried to set it on fire. He was put in a juvenile detention center. I'm not sure what became of him, though nothing would surprise me.

So often, teachers are the first to recognize a serious problem with a child -- even before the parents, whose love for their child can blind them to the truth. So it was with the killer at VT and one of his professors. I wish someone had been able to reach that kid before he picked up a gun. But as other posters have pointed out, for every kid who commits a violent act, there are 100 others who showed the same symptoms.

One of the attorneys here was telling me he was surprised that none of the kids tried to take the shooter down. I told him they were likely in shock. He pointed out that if it the incident had taken place on a plane, people would have reacted differently, but I think that's because anymore when people fly, we are on edge, just in case the worst happens. God forbid if our kids start arming ourselves mentally and emotionally that way just to go to school.

"Extreme shyness" is hardly what I'd call what Cho was exhibiting, though. He wouldn't talk to even his suite-mates, he never contributed in class (or was hostile when he did), never responded to any casual greetings, had no friends, rarely spoke, etc. Even someone who is very shy will open up to some people and have interests that he can share with others.

By itself shyness isn't a warning sign, but throw it in there with everything else and the picture that is painted is of someone who needs some help.

Mental health is a tricky place to go. As the child of a schizophrenic, I dealt with suicide threats and violence before I learned to read. I knew the important phone numbers (family members), and I was able to talk my mom down many times. You can tell my mom's not right, but would you ever imagine her beating her own daughter into a week in the hospital? That was my sister, but I do remember it as a five year old.

She did some very crazy things in that time, and it's very hard for a person who has not dealt with it before to see the difference between your run of the mill weirdo and a person with the potential to kill. Though that was twenty years ago and she hasn't committed herself (or been committed) in five years, I still don't trust her. My dad swears she's fine, but I still steer clear. I already did that, for way too long.

I once stood up for a friend who was being verbally abused by her boyfriend in front of many of us. The way I felt shunned by my friends after that really affected my ability to speak up, as well as my friendships with those people.

Only now, seven years later, have I really gotten to a point where I have started to try to speak up in earnest when I see a problem. I've been trying to remind myself, what do they do when no one else is looking?

Regular but anonymous and Anon too-- If you want to increase understanding for the mentally ill, your very rude attacks on Leslie are not the way to go about it. She described situations that are scary. The person having seizures wasn't lying unconscious flailing; he was walking around looking deranged and had just made horrific, furniture-bashing noises. That's very frightening. And, it doesn't sound like anyone did anything to make her feel better about it. Mentally ill people often exhibit behaviors that are very scary. You'd be an idiot not to be frightened. There is mental illness in my family too. I don't run around expecting the whole world to put up with some of the behaviors that go on. Sometimes, people need to be separated from society, in the same way as if they had a fatal, communicable disease. As for epilepsy, my brother has grand mal seizures (less than once a year), and when they happen, they are frightening, even though I've known exactly what they are since I was 6 years old, and he's usually asleep or otherwise lying down when they start. Give people a break and try educating rather than attacking.

"...Leslie doesn't know what she is talking about. In Leslie's world, it's all about Leslie."

Posted by: | April 18, 2007 08:26 AM

You know, Leslie picked an excellent topic today which could engender some actual intelligent conversation. May we hear your comments on the topic?

It might be that the Virginia Tech student's teachers, RA, TA's and the like DID see something but weren't allowed to do anything with the information that they had, due to legal issues and so forth.

Posted by: Armchair Mom | April 18, 2007 08:11 AM

I think this is the bigger point, at what point is it considered intrusion or harrasmment when dealing with a student/co-worker/neighbor? The legal implications probably keep many people from contacting whatever agency or authority they think can help. Talking to parents about their kids can be a nightmare, did the school raise the issues with Cho's parents?

I am not blaming the parents, merely showing how sticky and legally challenging these situations can be.

Okay, I lied, here I am again.

'"Extreme shyness" is hardly what I'd call what Cho was exhibiting, though. He wouldn't talk to even his suite-mates, he never contributed in class (or was hostile when he did), never responded to any casual greetings, had no friends, rarely spoke, etc.'

But JohnL, that is also pretty standard with autism. Generally speaking they don't read the social cues fast enough to participate. Temple Grandin is autistic, you may want to read some of her stuff.

I doubt anyone will ever truly know why he did what he did. Not even professional profilers are going to say that. Nor will they say they can always predict who will become violent.

"...she was upset that there was an epileptic in her workplace. Her first concern was for herself and not for the welfare of her co-worker."

And this is wrong because....? I didn't realize that everytime I find myself in a situation that concerns me, I have to first ask how the person who's scaring me is doing THEN I can call the police.

It might be that the Virginia Tech student's teachers, RA, TA's and the like DID see something but weren't allowed to do anything with the information that they had, due to legal issues and so forth.

I want to point out that unless the rules have drastically changed in the teaching profession, teachers are ethically required to report suspected issues with students -- mental health, physical health, abuse, etc. In fact, there are legal ramifications if they are aware of a problem and DON'T report it. I have not taught for some time. Perhaps someone who's currently in the field can expand.

In the realm of armchair speculation, I wonder about Antisocial Personality Disorder too. Which is basically untreatable, as the person doesn't WANT to change.

I think something that is overlooked here, is that this young man was an adult. And legally, we can't MAKE him get better, as we can't MAKE him take meds/participate in therapy/WANT to be different.

As a former teacher, I have seen so many administrators that do not want to address issues of a student with behavioral/safety problems as part of something larger, but only want to see them as isolated misbehavior. They don't want to get sued by parents or attract any negative attention to the school. Principals pride themselves on having low referral and suspension numbers and try to keep them down.
I once had a student "snap" in class and begin throwing desks and cursing. After I got him out and on his was to the office (no one to escort him down or watch my class), the other students asked me to lock the door because some were frightened he would come back. The administrator covered it up and fixed my referral form so that the student wouldn't get suspended. The guidance counselor didn't respond to my e-mail about what the student had done.
My mother, an elementary school teacher, had a student who developed a plan with another to kill another teacher with a sharpened pen. Her school administrators had them apologize and transferred the student to another school with nothing on his record.
I think its mostly that administrators don't want bad press or parents to sue them. Unfortunately, this puts everyone else in the school at risk.

Did you know that schizophrenics are actually less violent than the rest of society? It's just that when a rare one acts violently it makes the news. Leslie's older male executive was evidently epileptic, and unless she interfered with him improperly he probably wouldn't have hurt her. He must have been a very capable person to function well for many years with his meds and reach a high position in business. Leslie's lack of compassion for him is stunningly self-centered. Yes it's scary to see someone have a seizure. But part of growing up is learning to deal with things like this. Schizophrenics and epileptics used to be assumed to be possessed by the devil, and punished brutally for it. Now we know they are physical illnesses with a biological basis. Remind me never to let my hair get disheveled around Leslie, because she might get scared and call authorities to have me hauled off too.

MdMother, interesting comments. I commend the strength you exhibit in what you write. How do you function, yourself, day to day? The only mental illness I have dealt with in my family is an elderly relative who is very paranoid. Of course, it could (partly) be the beginnings of dementia. This relative has taken meds in the past, but they never seemed to totally work (nor did the therapy; she was too busy trying to outsmart the therapists). Dealing with this relative can be very, very draining.

As for Leslie, I'm not sure she knew the executive was an epileptic before she called security. And, epileptic or not, if the man presented a danger to himself (or others) with a seizure, security should have been called if for no other reason to help protect him.

"In Leslie's defense, she didn't know at first that the person was epileptic, she knew he behaving bizarrely, she's alone, and it's frightening; and if he wasn't monitoring himself (taking his meds and eating regularly), he was endangering himself and others. That's irresponsible."

Excuse me, but Leslie was rather unsympathetic when told that her co-worker had a medical condition. Sure she could be frightened and call 911, but when told that it was Epilepsy and not that the guy was being violent, she could have showed some compassion. And how does she know if he did or did not take his meds (the security team told her? what a nutcase she is!!!)? That is none of her business and there are people with seizure disorders who break through their meds. They are no more violent than the general population. And sure, maybe she could have educated herself about the condition so she could better understand rather than be scared to work at night. Shame on her and shame on those of you who defended her stupid remarks.

8:51, I think you make a good point. You can't make someone go to treatment or take medicine.

I have two friends who have depression. One takes her meds but also drinks and does "recreational" drugs, which affect the medicine's effects. The other refuses to take his medication. It seems that he'd rather be unhappy and unemployed.

Neither of them wants to change. No advice I give is heeded. What can we do?

But JohnL, that is also pretty standard with autism. Generally speaking they don't read the social cues fast enough to participate.

True. I have a son on the spectrum. His school system, when he had only the ADHD diagnosis, tried to label him emotionally disturbed. The those three disorders have some similar symptoms, and many times they can be co-morbid.

Also, there seems to be such a stigma, in this country at least, against the shy, quiet, loner type. I'm not talking about Cho, but people who are by nature introverted. I wonder why.

As far as the not acknowledging when you say hello, this is the greater DC area. NOBODY acknowledges when you say hello. So unless 90 percent of the population is a step away from being homicidal maniacs, this bit of data is not meaningful. I say hello or good morning/afternoon/evening and smile because I was raised to be polite to people I encounter, yet I am the one always given the strange looks if I am even acknowledged at all.

Disturbing writing doesn't mean anything either. Look at all the horror writers and movies... society thrives on disturbing stuff. I mean, look at Blog Stats. Now THERE is someone who needs watched, if you ask me.

People can be loners or "different," and that doesn't make them menaces. For instance not every kid wearing a trench-coat is evil, so you can't stereotype someone by that measure...

On the other hand, his behavior in the classroom where he would just stare off into space when the teacher was addressing him is just about the only potential indicator of some sort of behavioral disorder. It should have been followed up on immediately to determine why he would do that when called upon. I think everyone has zoned out in class before just because they were tired, bored, or just not paying attention, but then they acknowledge they weren't paying attention and apologize... so him just being a zombie would seem very odd and be a flag worth looking into.

As far as his Ismale Ax tattoo, perhaps that is an anagram for Islam Axe? Too obvious?

Posted by: Regular but anonymous | April 18, 2007 09:01 AM

Did you read what Kate grew up with?

What about MdMother and her kids?

Leslie isn't a trained mental health professional (and even THEY don't follow procedure when it involves THEIR loved ones), why would you expect her to say, "Oh, look, that gentleman who is gibbering and breaking furniture may be in medical distress, why don't I get closer so I see if he has a medical i.d. bracelet, read it, and THEN act appropriately?" She did do the right thing. She called security. And guess what? The individual who has the disorder (and is 100% responsible for his/her life at all times) wasn't taking care of himself.

Theory meets reality and goes for a test drive.

Not every mentally ill patient takes responsibility for their actions. That's a fact. Sometimes that has tragic consequences for the individual and the immediate family; sometimes it affects others.

Right here in Bethesda, a noted psychiatrist was murdered by a schizophrenic patient. And this doctor took on the toughest clientele. All it takes is one to hurt you. My mother was a psychiatric nurse, and was attacked by a patient who kicked her in the back and landed her in the hospital. Trained medical professional.

Would you advise that just anyone take on someone who is in the midst of a bad episode?

I don't. Call 911. I take bad episodes very seriously.

My daughter is on the spectrum too. She is very introverted and does not play with other kids. But in no way is she violent. In fact, she is very passive. Society does seem to have issues with kids who are shy. She was placed on the autism spectrum because she only parallel plays with other kids, has a speech delay and sometimes doesn't make eye contact. I think in the past we just called these kids late bloomers or shy. Now all of sudden they have a label on the autism spectrum. It upsets me because people lump my daughter with the aggressive autistic traits and that just isn't true. Cho seemed anti social versus just shy.

Hindsight is 20/20. If Leslie had known the man was having a seizure, she probably would have acted differently, but it doesn't sound like that was the case. Give her a break.

"I have two friends who have depression. One takes her meds but also drinks and does "recreational" drugs, which affect the medicine's effects. The other refuses to take his medication. It seems that he'd rather be unhappy and unemployed.

Neither of them wants to change. No advice I give is heeded. What can we do?"

Sometimes, part of the illness is not recognizing that you need help. I know someone who would take meds for a while and then stop because she was now OK. As soon as the meds stopped, the problems came back. The meds had uncomfortable side effects, so she didn't want to take them once she was healed. The nature of the illness.

I raised a "red flag" once in graduate school. I saw a student playing with a switchblade under his desk. After class another student emailed him about it, and the knife-wielder went into a tirade about how it was his right to carry it, he needs it for protection, etc. I reported it to the dean of students, and he was suspended because he continued to insist to the administration that it was his right to carry it.

This occurred in 2002. He is currently suing the university about this and other similar matters.

I think that part of the deep unease we have with situations like these is the unwanted realization that we can't stop it from happening again. As has been said already, 1000 people might meet the "spooky loner" description, and 999 of them will go on to not shoot up the school. We can try to head off these problems at the pass, but there is nothing we can do to fully prevent them. It's the natural rejection of the idea that awful things can happen at any time, and we are powerless to prevent them.

We're very, very uncomfortable with that concept. So, we search for someone, anyone to blame. It was the school--they should've recognized that Cho was a mass murderer. It was the administrators--they should've notified the students earlier of the first shootings. It was the victims--they should've rushed Cho. I think part of balance, part of living life, is the realization that there are things that will happen--awful, terrible things--and the only thing we have control over is how we respond to them.

Just to make it clear, the knife was open and he was practicing martial arts moves or something.

Bethesda, I totally agree with you. I was most offended by Leslie's lack of compassion once she found out what was wrong. By her standards everyone whose behavior is even a little bit different would need to be locked up, so as not to scare her or offend her sensitive eyes.

foamgnome, your daughter is officially diagnosed? I remember you talking about that her being evaluated.

My son does have some aggressive tendencies, but not all the time. So you can imagine my upset too!

Otherwise, there's lack of eye contact, more comfort level with adults, not reading social cues, rigidity in subject matter of discussion and perseveration with animals. He is, however, pretty social in that he wants to make and keep friends. He just doesn't truly know how, although he does manage to have at least one friend here and there. But he wants sleepovers and playdates and a best friend. Hopefully he'll get those one day.

Ismale Ax could be Male Axis.

This is a sticky situation, especially since the typical age for personality disorders to become present happens around the early 20's--passed the legal age, yes, but still under the care of any institution a person may be attending, if applicable.

I encountered a situation with a friend when i was in college. She was a History major like I was, so we had that in common. I thought she was nice, a bit clingy and narcissistic (she had a connection with EVERY guy on campus), but otherwise ok.

By the middle of the fall semester, though, her behavior had quickly escalated into a weird combination of paranoia and the notion that a particular fraternity on campus was "out to get her." And, since they knew I was her friend, they were out to get me, too...She even believed a professor was stalking me, because he called me to give me a reference for a paper I needed.

As an RA, I was trained to look for signs of odd behavior, and this definitely fit. I had no qualms informing the appropriate officials. Really, though, it was just giving more information. This was a much smaller school than VT, and word was already out around campus of her odd behavior. I just helped confirm that there was something going on with her.

I'm not sure if it was home-sickness taken to an extreme, or if there truly was a personality disorder emerging, but she left soon after I made my statement. Her parents were notified. She packed up and went home.

I don't know if there can really be a blanket plan of implementation for college campuses to recognize odd behavior. As an RA, I only had 45 residents to be concerned with; in the residence hall at VT, where 895 students are housed, I am sure the numbers under each RA are much higher. Therefore, symptoms and changes or erratic behavior are certainly easier to miss.

Perhaps the information and some of the training that is provided to RAs should be provided to all students, so that everyone has the knowledge and ability of what to look out for.

"and I didn't know what to do to make sure he didn't hurt himself or someone else in the future."

I stand by my remarks. I live with someone who is mentally ill. It is HIS responsibility to take care of himself. Not mine. I do not monitor his medications, I do not hover and insist he make appointments, or go to appointments or in any way infantalize him.

What would you suggest Leslie have done? "Oh, excuse upper-echelon employee, have you taken your meds today? Would you like a glass of orange juice?" She called security. He got help. At that point, the burden was upon him. It's not up to the rest of the world to take care of YOUR medical condition. It's up to you. If he wanted to speak with her first-hand and educate her on his condition, or what would help IF it occurred again, he could have done so.

The notion that everyone has to "empower" or educate themself on every subject is bollocks. It allows insurance companies to burden sick clients with admonitions that you "empower yourself!" rather than get advice that you are paying for. It means customer service is you wending your way through a maze of button-pushing, with no human being at the end. Periodic chirrups of "we appreciate your business!" notwithstanding.

Yeah, early stages of dementia are rough. People often get belligerant, as they just can't believe they've forgotten or misplaced or lost things--very often it becomes someone stole them. They look angry a lot. Generally speaking, the first memories acquired are the last to go. Pull out the old photo albums, get a "Grandparents Journal" and get them talking about their youth. Is it time for a home aide as well?

As for how we (the kids and I) get through it? With a safety plan and exit strategy. Got to say, it's tiresome when therapy becomes your hobby!

THE RED FLAG (by James Connell, 1899)

The workers' flag is deepest red,
It shrouded oft our martyred dead;
And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold
Their life-blood dyed its every fold.
CHORUS:
Then raise the scarlet standard high;
Beneath its folds we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.

It waved above our infant might
When all ahead seemed dark as night;
It witnessed many a deed and vow,
We will not change its color now.
(CHORUS)

With heads uncovered, swear we all,
To bear it onward till we fall;
Come dungeons dark, or gallows grim,
This song shall be our parting hymn!
(CHORUS)

If the school refers a student to counseling, and they don't go, can the school expel the student? I know that you cannot force adults to have treatment without involuntary committment, but can't there be a policy established that says you accept treatment or leave the school?

BTW, if my daughter described someone who was weird and wouldn't talk, I would probably tell her to avoid the person. I don't know that I would necessarily question his/her mental health and suggest taking further action.

As a matter of fact, she does think her roommate is weird. They do talk to each other, but have completely different interests. Should I be concerned? I think not. The other girl does socialize with others and doesn't scare anyone - she is just "weird" to my daughter and her friends.

I think one of the saddest things that I heard from one of the roommates of the shooter was that he did not go home for the entire school year.

Leslie said she was 27 when she saw the man have a seizure, so she was not a child but an adult. Surely she already knew about epilepsy from her education, or reading or TV or movies even if she'd never seen a seizure in person.

"I was most offended by Leslie's lack of compassion once she found out what was wrong. By her standards everyone whose behavior is even a little bit different would need to be locked up, so as not to scare her or offend her sensitive eyes"

This is fascinating, Regular but anonymous. You derived all that--forced incarceration, lack of compassion, offense rather than a justified fear for her physical safety--from the following sentence:

"I never felt safe working late again -- and I didn't know what to do to make sure he didn't hurt himself or someone else in the future."

Truly impressive. You must have some superhuman powers of false deducation.

Sometimes, part of the illness is not recognizing that you need help.

When you are told, over and over and over again, that your behaviour is frightening, or inappropriate and you must address it or consequences will follow--then the monkey is on your back.

The fact that my husband continues to say that we "make him" do this, or that, or we "made him" bipolar all underlines his personality disorder.

Which, no, did not rear its ugly head until after we wed. Part of BPD is mimicking the person you currently value--he was able to keep it up for a time, then it he reverted to himself. Hollow, empty, without form.

Kind of like a boggart! But with dementor overtones, I'm sorry to say. As he can ooze unhappiness and it creeps under doors and into your very psyche, if you aren't aware of it. Fortunately, his Eeyore-voice is one giveaway. So is his screaming at me that everything is MY fault...

Gosh, if I were THAT powerful as to make him UNhappy all the time, wouldn't it work in reverse too?

*sigh*

If anyone has the Personality Fairy in a bottle, send her to me, would you?

What was Cho like in high school? Did his problems emerge suddenly at Virginia Tech. He made it to college at least functioning somewhat. I haven't heard any horror stories from high school -- at least not yet. What happened to him?

I reported it to the dean of students, and he was suspended because he continued to insist to the administration that it was his right to carry it.

This occurred in 2002. He is currently suing the university about this and other similar matters.

Posted by: drmommy | April 18, 2007 09:24 AM

It's all about legal liability.

Leslie said she was 27 when she saw the man have a seizure, so she was not a child but an adult. Surely she already knew about epilepsy from her education, or reading or TV or movies even if she'd never seen a seizure in person.

Posted by: Regular but anonymous | April 18, 2007 09:32 AM

Would you recognize the beginning of a manic episode? Or would you simply think the individual is upbeat, energetic and full of enthusiasm?

You sound older than 20, surely YOU KNOW the difference in behavior between a bipolar I, bipolar II and atypical bipolar patient! Just like Leslie would, in her training in business. Wasn't there an after-school special on sociopathy?

theoriginalmomof2 : a neurologist recently diagnosed her. But she is on the high functioning end. DD does not miss social cues compared to her typical peers. Her speech is actually coming a long and she is now talking in full sentences. She says a few. I think we will be in speech therapy for a long time. We work on the eye contact but she does do it sometimes. Just not 100% of the time. She doesn't really show interest in friendships but has deep relationships with adults.

Dear regular but anonymous: actually, no, I have no idea what epilepsy looks like. And, oh yes, I really want to glean my knowledge of mental illness from TV or the movies...
I understand your point about the need for compassion, but I think you're reading a lot into Leslie's remark.

MD Mom,
I can't even begin to understand what you must have to deal with on a daily basis. You are being particularly verbal today, is it the topic or are things rougher than usual right now? Sorry if they are.

Leslie brings up an issue today that I'm very concerned about. In fact, it's one of the reasons I began searching for an anonymous parenting blog.

I've heard that there have been pilot programs that are doing mental health screening in the public schools. Essentialy these are questionaires that attempt to identify suicidal or depression tendencies of the participants. I have a fear that one of my children may get flagged, and then I will be forced to buy medications or pay for expensive counseling which I may not agree to, but if I don't, I could be charged with neglect. I've had friends and know children put on these psychoactive grugs just for, in my opinion, being annoying at worst, perfectly normal but more active than average at best. I've also noticed, that when drugs are administered over a period of time, discontinueing them results in severely unpredictable behavior.

My stance on this issue is the parents should have the ultimate authority and final decision on the psychoactive drugs or therapy that their children should or should not take. I trust the loving decisions of parents much, much more than the systematic process of the government.

Although I am firmly against treating my son with medications, I certainly realize that drug therapy is essential to the functionality of those stricken with mental illness. I am curious of those that have used medications for their children. What was the breaking point? What is the process? What are the side effects? Should I be worried? Any information on this aspect of parenting will be appreciated.

"My stance on this issue is the parents should have the ultimate authority and final decision on the psychoactive drugs or therapy that their children should or should not take. I trust the loving decisions of parents much, much more than the systematic process of the government."

The courts generally side with you on this one. But you may have to fight.

I'll avoid the Leslie-bashing for today, but point out that it can be in your best interests to understand what you're dealing with. In the early '80s while a grad student at Purdue, one of the students in the statistics class I taught was epileptic. He was very active in spreading knowledge about the condition (I think he ran the state or at least county chapter), and he came to my office early in the semester to explain what his condition was, what might happen and how I should deal with it. It was very helpful. When he started to have a seizure in my office one day, my office mates ran out in horror while I knew how to react because he had taught me. When he started to have a seizure in class, I was able to tell the other students what to do and thus control a potential panic situation.

Leslie didn't know the executive was epileptic and so calling security was the right thing to do. AFTER finding out the situation, though, rather than be afraid of working late again, she should have been MORE CONFIDENT working late because she would have known what was going on and how to react. It certainly wasn't her job to monitor his medications or take care of him, but it was in her best interests to understand that (a) there was an epileptic in the office; (b) what a seizure looked like; and (c) what to do when it occurs.

16.8% of students in Arlington Co are indentified as leaning disabled. The percentage is just too high to be reasonable. Extra LD students mean extra funding for the school system and less legal responsibility if a student does something hurtful. What you told about your children fits within the 3 sigma region.

Another important factor is the Big Pharma. In Britain only 1.5 to 2% of school age children were diagnosted as ADHD, for example, until the pharmaceutical companies started agressive marketing compain among doctors and school administrators, now it's near 10%.

Help your children to get where they want to be in terms of friends and interests, but don't try to mold them into what the Joneses expect them to be.

"By her [Leslie's} standards everyone whose behavior is even a little bit different would need to be locked up, so as not to scare her or offend her sensitive eyes."

You are so off base. Where do you get this crap? Leslie never said or even implied that. What she said is this:

"I never felt safe working late again -- and I didn't know what to do to make sure he didn't hurt himself or someone else in the future."

Remember that the man was having violent seizures. I would say that a violent seizure would be scary to anyone, whatever the cause. Leslie did the right thing. She called security and got the man help. And it is a perfectly normal reaction to be frightened by a violent outburst, whatever the cause may be.

Leslie was absolutely right to be concerned in her workplace. I was working one holiday by myself. I returned to my office from another area and someone was sitting at my desk! He hurriedly excused himself and left. I called security. When they reviewed their cameras they found that fellow had used a crowbar to break the lock on the door and enter the office. Heaven only knows where the crowbar was when I encountered him.

Bad stuff happens in seemingly safe situations, it is smart to be on the lookout.

I had a son with emotional issues and I found that MCPS was very quick to identify them. At the time we thought this was normal "boy" behavior, but we did take him for a psych evaluation. The therapy wasn't too helpful but he did a short stint on Zoloft and improved.

It is difficult for parents because sometimes I think they want to pigeon-hole students, but in our case it turned out to be worth looking into.

f04: I would not rush to think the school is requiring drug therapy. I have this anti establishment paranoid friend. He believed when DD was diagnosed with high functioning autism (on the spectrum), they would force her to take some sort of drug like Ritalin. So far, drug therapy has not even been mentioned once by the school or the doctors. They simply want educational and speech therapy. I believe these therapies are great and have helped a lot. I don't think the school or doctors are always working as drug pushers. See what they have to offer. Also I don't think the public school can force a parent to pay for expensive counseling. If your son is diagnosed with learning disabilities, the school system needs to provide certain treatments for your son. I live in Fairfax too. And I have to say I have had NO problems getting services for my daughter. In fact the opposite is true. They go out of their way to provide better care for her.

Maybe Leslie needs to create an online personality quiz for everyone: If the results do not show that you are an elitist alpha female, then obviously there is something wrong with you! ;-P

"I never felt safe working late again -- and I didn't know what to do to make sure he didn't hurt himself or someone else in the future."

Why should someone never feel safe again after a coworker has a an epileptic seizure? Would Leslie feel the same way if it was a heart attack or stroke? Yes it's upsetting, but NEVER to feel safe again is overreacting and intolerant.

Father of 4,

There are cases of people who have done violent acts AFTER being put on meds for mental issues. Some of these have been teenage boys and young men. Their families insist that there were no violent tendencies prior to certain medications. I don't know if there has been any established link. Some think the parents are unable to accept what there children have done and are looking for something to blame. Others think that the meds themselves actually altered behavior in the users.

I am in no way an expert on anything, and what I know about this is only a little that I have picked up in casual reading. If anyone is more knowledgeable about this, I would be interested in your comments.

Emily, I don't think that the point is that she called security when the first seizure occurred - I'd argue that that's sensible behavior when you don't know what's going on. It was the point about never feeling safe working late again - that's not a healthy, intelligent response to the situation. A healthy, intelligent response would have been "what was that about; what should I do if it happens in the future; okay, now I know how to handle this, life is good."

Leslie did not call the episode epilepsy. I think that most commenter are reading this into her brief description of what happened. As far as I know, and I do have reason to know about seizure disorder, violence is not a part of the manifestations of a epileptic seizure. In the seizure disorders that I have personally witnessed, the individual becomes unconscious and falls to the floor and starts convulsions. The individual does not become wild eyed and start to destroy furniture. the individual certainly does not walk or run about with eyes glazed over.

I think that Leslie had a proper concern for her safety.

Years ago, I was sitting in my car outside a Blockbuster waiting for my husband to come out. It was raining so hard I could barely see out of the windows. A lady with three little kids parked next to me, opened her car door slamming it into my car and when I looked at her, she started screaming at me and beating on my windows. She was calling me a child abuser (even thoough there were no children in my car) and accusing me of having a gun. Then she stood in front of my car and yelled some more while her poor children were witnessing all of this and getting soaked. And once she got inside Blockbuster, she stood in their window and yelled some more. I was terrified. But I did nothing. To this day, I'm still ashamed of myself for not calling the police. I only hope and pray she did not hurt her children.

"AFTER finding out the situation, though, rather than be afraid of working late again, she should have been MORE CONFIDENT working late because she would have known what was going on and how to react."

But how should she react? If it's late at night, she's all alone with this guy, and he has another violent seizure where he's walking around deranged, crashing into furniture and literally out of control, she should think, "Oh, it's his epilepsy that's causing him to have these violent seizures." And then, she should...what, exactly? If he's out of control, the knowledge that it's due to epilepsy doesn't really help her.

16.8% of students in Arlington Co are indentified as leaning disabled. The percentage is just too high to be reasonable. Extra LD students mean extra funding for the school system and less legal responsibility if a student does something hurtful. What you told about your children fits within the 3 sigma region.

Another important factor is the Big Pharma. In Britain only 1.5 to 2% of school age children were diagnosted as ADHD, for example, until the pharmaceutical companies started agressive marketing compain among doctors and school administrators, now it's near 10%.

Help your children to get where they want to be in terms of friends and interests, but don't try to mold them into what the Joneses expect them to be.

Posted by: to Foamgnome and theoriginalmomof2 | April 18, 2007 09:45 AM

Whenever I mention doubts about DD's condition, the professionals tell me I am in denial. I do think DD is slightly off but I think she is more shy and introverted then seriously out there. But I have learned to keep my mouth shut because the extra therapy has not seemed to hurt her. They have only benefited her.

Leslie didn't know the executive was epileptic and so calling security was the right thing to do. AFTER finding out the situation, though, rather than be afraid of working late again, she should have been MORE CONFIDENT working late because she would have known what was going on and how to react. It certainly wasn't her job to monitor his medications or take care of him, but it was in her best interests to understand that (a) there was an epileptic in the office; (b) what a seizure looked like; and (c) what to do when it occurs.

Posted by: Army Brat | April 18, 2007 09:44 AM

"A healthy, intelligent response would have been "what was that about; what should I do if it happens in the future; okay, now I know how to handle this, life is good.""

I would not have known how to handle it in the future, even after it happened once. The man apparently made no effort to talk to her about it or reassure her that it was not a dangerous situation. Being told that he had a violent seizure that occurs when he does not take his meds does not give me any information on how to deal with it. If it had happened again, I would have been just as frightened.

Guys, come on. Leslie did not know the man had epilepsy-she wrote that security told her that AFTER the fact. And we have no idea whether or what she did to demonstrate compassion after the fact. And let's be real: anyone who has worked somewhere where there is a hierarchy knows better than to go to the sr. person the next day and say in the office "hey, saw you thrashing about and looking dishelved last night. you doing ok? how might i help you remember to take your medicine?" Regardless of why the man seemed dangerous, it was a wake up call that working late may not be as safe as it appears. How can you possibly criticize that? Let's leave the "Leslie is an elitist and mean" junk at the door today!

If Leslie was still afraid after the incident, maybe she should have stopped staying at work late at night. It became her fault for still being afraid after she knew what caused the problem.

Leslie should have left her job if she didn't like the situation.

"If Leslie was still afraid after the incident, maybe she should have stopped staying at work late at night. It became her fault for still being afraid after she knew what caused the problem."

I still don't understand why knowing what caused the problem SOLVES the problem in this case. What was she supposed to do if this guy had another violent episode and they were alone again in the office? Stand there and say "Excuse me, Mr. Exec, I'd just like you to know, you are having this violent episode as a result of your medical condition. Carry on."

Been on both sides--doing too much, and not doing enough. Pressuring a person to get help when they're paranoid or in denial just gives them an excuse to cut you off or see you as their enemy. On the other hand we often make excuses for odd behavior, or don't notice because we're really not paying close attention. After all, we shouldn't and don't go around suspecting mental illness every time someone says something that doesn't make sense.

I don't have any advice. In my experience it's a no-win situation where both the ill person and the people around them often end up suffering.

"I never felt safe working late again -- and I didn't know what to do to make sure he didn't hurt himself or someone else in the future."

Translation: "Baa."

Extrapolation of Translation: "I feel uneasy around disabled/non-elite people and feel that in distancing myself from the problem (them), it will go away. Besides, I would not want to place myself in a situation where I might have to take some sort of action."

We fear what we choose not to understand.

I'd sure feel sorry for any epileptic who has to work with you. Forget the ADA, maybe fire them anyhow and hope for a quiet out-of-court settlement when the lawsuit comes?

We fear what we choose not to understand.

Posted by: Chris | April 18, 2007 10:02 AM

So true.

"Leslie's lack of compassion for him is stunningly self-centered."

??? Ok, I'm really not getting the Leslie-bashing. I'd have been scared in that situation, too. Heck, I'd have been even more scared after finding out that it was a medical condition -- if all people can tell you is that the problem may recur, but they can't tell you what to do if it does, and can't even tell you what disease it is so you can research it and find out for yourself, how is that NOT scary? And Leslie's fear wasn't just for herself -- did people miss the fact that she was scared in part because she didn't know how to keep him from hurting HIMSELF?

There seems to be a real knee-jerk reaction on this blog whenever the topic of mental illness comes up, with people immediately jumping all over Leslie for not knowing what she's talking about and not being sympathetic to those who suffer from it. So I find it ironic that in this case, the example that has sparked the controversy doesn't even look like a mental illness. Looks a lot more like badly-controlled diabetes to me (if you've ever seen someone experience a serious low blood sugar event, they can become frighteningly violent).

Yes, "mental illnesses" have biological bases, just like other kinds of diseases, such a diabetes. Yes, the vast majority of people suffering from any illness are completely nonviolent and pose no threat to themselves or others. But the facts that certain behaviors have a biological basis for certain behaviors, and that 99% of people with X disease will never experience those behaviors, are all completely irrelevant when you are faced with someone who IS acting violently from some unknown cause. When someone like Leslie's coworker does act out like that, he CAN hurt himself and others -- even if he would never intentionally hurt someone otherwise.

When you are facing someone behaving violently, you have every right to be scared -- especially when you've never faced it before and don't know what to do. Simply admitting that you were scared doesn't mean you think all people suffering mental illness are violent, or that you have no compassion for them. In fact, the event is even scarier if you DO care about the person involved. If you're assaulted by some unknown raving lunatic on the street (as I was once), you can just run away (as I did); you can recognize the mental illness and feel concern for a fellow human being, but your own safety is the highest priority. But if it is someone you know and like, you stay and try to help -- so you keep yourself in the danger zone precisely because you DO care about someone other than yourself. Which is what Leslie did -- she could have just left the building to protect herself, but she stayed and called security, so that they could BOTH be safe.

That seemed to me to be the point of the column -- at what point do you step in and take action to protect yourself, others, AND the person who is acting out?

Bethesda, I totally agree with you. I was most offended by Leslie's lack of compassion once she found out what was wrong. By her standards everyone whose behavior is even a little bit different would need to be locked up, so as not to scare her or offend her sensitive eyes.

Posted by: Regular but anonymous | April 18, 2007 09:26 AM

Triple agree. Rather than using her (Leslie's) experience as a teaching moment, ie "people with diabetes, medical conditions can act irrationally and crazy" she decided to focus on her fear of this man.

As for the snarky poster that assumed this man was not taking care of himself and was surprised he had risen to such prominence in this company, I am surprised at your lack of knowledge. People with medical conditions have these episodes even when they are vigilant about their health. Have some compassion.

Furthermore, my beautiful wife has epilepsy. She left her previous employer because of immature adults who would make rude comments about her condition. For example, "now we don't want to stress her out- we don't want to cause a seizure." Being eccentric is one thing, but being a condescending elitist snob is perhaps one of the worst truly anti-social personality disorders. The only cure for it is a dose of good old fashioned humble pie.

The translation as I read it is: "Wow, I am potentially vulnerable to forces and people beyond my control and I need to think more about my safety if I work late at night." Any of us would want our children, spouses and friends to come to the same conclusion REGARDLESS of why the person turned out to be dangerous (and remember, medical condition or not, he was still potentially dangerous to himself and to others).

The majority of you people have way too much time on your hand and an apparent ax to grind with Leslie. I am a lurker, but it seems to me that some people come on this blog just to complain about and berate Leslie, not to provide any actual substance to the discussion.

No where in Leslie's post does she mention epilepsy. What she mentions is a man who obviously has some sort of known problem that is exacerbated by not taking his medications and that leads to violent fits and destructive tendencies. It obviously was not the first time this had happened, since the security guards knew the situation, and it makes sense that since this was a recurring issue, she had concern for her, and other's safety.

Regardless, if you continually hate what Leslie has to say and how she says it, why do you keep reading? Why don't you just accept that you aren't going to change Leslie, you will continue to dislike her, and move on to somewhere you can find happiness? That will allow those of us that are here for discussions on balance, or just balanced discussion in general, to read and write in peace, without having to sidestep your bs.

"I'd sure feel sorry for any epileptic who has to work with you. Forget the ADA, maybe fire them anyhow and hope for a quiet out-of-court settlement when the lawsuit comes?"

Don't know where you're getting the idea that the guy had epilepsy. It certainly wasn't in Leslie's post. But I am impressed at your ability to take my statements that Leslie was justified in her fears of working after hours alone with someone who had this type of violent seizure, and turn it into "epileptics should be fired, and their rights under the ADA violated." Well done.

MD Mom,
"I can't even begin to understand what you must have to deal with on a daily basis. You are being particularly verbal today, is it the topic or are things rougher than usual right now? Sorry if they are. "

More than one of us live with a mentally ill person. It is incredibly stressful and draining.

It is one thing to be scared at first, but after you have been informed, and maybe even ask a question or two, there is nothing to fear. Army Brat spelled it out earlier.

Being diagnosted with autistic spectrum disorder doesn't label a kid negatively in a long run. Go for occupational, speech, and physical therapy by all means, it helps all kids, even the mainstream ones. But for ADHD, ODD and similar diagnoses the consequences are long term. First, there are meds for those conditions (unlike autism), and teachers are eager to recommend them to calm kids down while in the classroom. Meds have side effects. Next, for some jobs (and the Army) you have to indicate on your application if you were diagnosted with ADHD type disorders "past adolescence". If I really were concerned about my child emotional state, and he/she was not functioning properly in more than one social setting (not just in one particular classroom), I would consult a psychologist outside the school system, to avoid bias.

I meant my post to begin:
While the majority of this group is here for intelligent discussion, some of you people have way too much time on your hand and an apparent ax to grind with Leslie.

Please append in your mind. tx

Because maybe we can teach Leslie and her kind. She doesn't know everything.

Taken one at a time, none of Cho's "symptoms" would have been a clear warning sign that something was wrong with him. However, put them all together and they make a much more disturbing composite.

It's that "well, he's just wierd and none of my business" attitude among the general public that keeps the media in business. Every time one of these tragedies takes place, the news crews interview many, many people who say every time "he was just a little wierd, I had no idea he'd do that".

Yes, autism has similar symptoms as the extreme antisocial behavior Cho had. He was a senior in college, though; you'd have thought by then that he would have developed SOME socializing skills. He never changed and his behavior had even begun deteriorating right before Monday happened.

I think that VTech should have had the ability to tell Cho that, if he did not get counseling and follow whatever recommendations they wanted, he would have been expelled. In my office, if someone does not agree to attend official mandated counseling (for drug use, personal problems, etc), they can be released from their job. I see no reason why a university cannot do the same thing with a student.

Chris, the situation Army Brat describes is student with epileptic seizures. Just because the guy in Leslie's office had seizures, it does not mean he had epilepsy. AB describes a frightening but non violent seizure. Leslie describes a violent seizure that could potentially harm her or the man having the episode. You guys are missing the points. 1) we don't know if the man had epilepsy 2) there is a difference between a non violent seizure and a violent one 3) it is not Leslie's job to keep the office safe. IT is her employers job. I also think most people would be scared if nothing else for fear he would hurt himself.

What if it wasn't epilepsy? What if it was diabetic shock, or some other physical problem? How is that different enough to change the argument? It's still physical illness.

Emily, sounds like you choose to live your life differently than me. That's fine; this isn't criticism and I apologize if it comes across that way. But, having an experience like Leslie describes in my work environment would make me want to understand who, what, and why. "Being told that he had a violent seizure that occurs when he does not take his meds does not give me any information on how to deal with it." If security didn't tell me, I'd find out myself. Then I'd make a decision - quit out of fear for my own safety; try to get the executive removed or treated; or learn how to deal with it in the future. I certainly would NOT EVER "be scared to work late at night" and keep the same job.

I have a neighbor who is mentally ill. She literally looks like a scared puppy all the time. Except that on occasion, she flies into rages. One late evening, she called my house in a rage, to apparently tell me that she was not having an affair with my husband, and that I should stop parking my car on the street in front of her house. She thought that that was my way of getting revenge on her. I reassured her that I had no such suspicions, and that I had simply parked the car there because the space in front of my house was taken that day. Believe me, I never parked my car in front of her house again. I admit that I do walk on eggshells around her. You never know what is going to set her off. Do I think she is dangerous? Not really. But then again, she is the kind of person who never looks at you or responds to your greetings. Never engages in any social activity. But she looks more frightened herself than threatening. Most of the time.

But what can you do? Not all mentally ill people are dangerous, and not all dangerous people are mentally ill. I think hindsight can give you a lot of clues, but in reality, you really can't predict people's behaviour. I don't think much could have been done about the shooter at VT. Especially since he had no criminal history and made no specific threats prior to the shooting.

"It is one thing to be scared at first, but after you have been informed, and maybe even ask a question or two, there is nothing to fear. Army Brat spelled it out earlier."

Yes, if he had epilepsy. But we don't know that he did--Leslie didn't say. We do know that whatever medical condition he had made him scream, damage furniture, and walk around "clearly deranged, white hair disheveled, his eyes glazed." Sounds like a far cry from the type of seizure that involves falling to the ground and having physical convulsions.

I think that VTech should have had the ability to tell Cho that, if he did not get counseling and follow whatever recommendations they wanted, he would have been expelled.

John, unless Cho had demonstrated behavior that endangered the actual LIFE of himself or someone else, what you propose is illegal and Cho would have had an excellent chance of winning a costly lawsuit against VTech.

If an alcoholic has tendencies to get drunk and drive, putting others at risk, is it not acceptable to be concerned about this and to feel fear when you see them get behind the wheel, not knowing whether they have been drinking or not?

If a person has a medical or mental condition that causes them to become violent if they have not taken their meds or eaten, and they regularly forget their meds and to eat, causing these episodes to happen, is it not acceptable to be concerned about this person and to feel fear when you are alone with them, not knowing whether they are on their meds or have eaten?

There has been talk that Leslie was an adult and, as such, should have recognized the signs of epilepsy, if that is what the problem was. I think the bigger issue is that this man was an adult and should have known better how to handle his problem, not allowing himself to get to the state, through lack of meds or food, where he became a danger to anyone. His problem was, apparently, completely controllable, which puts the onus on him to control it, not Leslie to accept his lack of control.

SECURITY SAID (consider the source!): "the executive had a medical condition that caused violent seizures if he didn't take medicine or eat regularly."

Leslie wrote: "I never felt safe working late again -- and I didn't know what to do to make sure he didn't hurt himself or someone else in the future."

I don't see where it's epilepsy. I don't know what you would suggest she would need to do, if working late, to prevent HIS having another seizure.

If he did have another violent seizure, she would still be wise to call 911, or security, to ensure that whatever his underlying medical condition MAY be (remember, we don't know if this is epilepsy, diabetes [in which case he may have had to be hospitalized] or other!).

It's not up to us to educate ourselves on everyone else's problems. If he had taken it upon himself to introduce himself, address what had happened, and maybe advised her, that would have been a good thing.

I didn't know they were issuing medical licenses in boxes of Cracker Jacks these days. Where's mine?

My point is, knowing that the guy's behavior was a result of his medical condition means that it wasn't the guy's fault. It does not mean that the knowledge arms Leslie with the means to handle the situation should it arise again. Because of that, I think Leslie was totally justified in being scared. What she did in response to her fears, I don't know, and neither do any of us. Maybe she changed her schedule. Maybe she got additional information and felt comfortable enough to work late again. Maybe she didn't work late unless someone else was there. Maybe she went to the gym and bulked up enough to be able to physically subdue the guy if necessary. Maybe she bought a taser. We don't know.

But the fact that she was scared is a reasonable response, and doesn't make her insensitive to the needs and realities of people with mental illnesses.

Officer Krupke,
I was not trying to downplay anyone else's family mental health problems. I was not aware of yours (if you are talking about yourself)but simply acknowledging Md Mother's comments of today. No offense meant.

If you read the plays he wrote, it sounds like Cho was abused.

a college friend of mine died because his parents were christian scientist & they refused to treat his pneumonia. so, no parents do not always do what is best for their children.

I really don't understand all the Leslie bashing that goes on here. She shares her opinion/thought/experience and gets nailed to the wall on an almost daily basis. Are all of you doing the bashing really that perfect and compassionate?

"It is one thing to be scared at first, but after you have been informed, and maybe even ask a question or two, there is nothing to fear. Army Brat spelled it out earlier."

Chris --

I agree with you on the epilepsy front. The problem is, no one was able to tell Leslie that it WAS epilepsy. Medical privacy laws and all that. Could have been that, could have been diabetes, could have been a psychotic break, could have been any number of other things.

If you know what the problem is, you can research the disease and take steps to prepare yourself, as Army Brat suggested. But no one COULD tell Leslie what the problem really was -- and that's precisely what makes the situation scary. To me, hearing "yes, it could happen again, but I can't tell you what caused it or what to do if it does" is just as frightening as the first incident.

"John, unless Cho had demonstrated behavior that endangered the actual LIFE of himself or someone else, what you propose is illegal and Cho would have had an excellent chance of winning a costly lawsuit against VTech."

That's the point I was trying to make; that the information about Cho was in different places and not all together. Had more been known about his behavior by the school, then perhaps they could have put more pressure on him to attend the counseling. Perhaps also the laws should be changed to allow the schools more leeway on what it takes to expel a student.

I realize that privacy issues prevent VTech from disclosing his grades, but I wonder how he was doing in these classes if the students and faculty were as concerned about him as these reports indicate.

Cho's mother sounds like some sort of religious fanatic who was trying to force him to believe just like her. See 1st Amendment, mom.

It is possible to raise a "red flag," but not so simple for authorities to follow through with action. At GWU a few years ago, a student was expelled from campus due to a determination that he was a potential danger to himself and others. In response, there was a lawsuit against the school. In litigious times, universities in particular may be hesitant to take action against individuals.

JohnL: One article said he failed to attend one of his classes for a month. That would be a big indication something is wrong. But again with HIPA it is hard to release any medical information to outsiders. The whole situation is just plain sad.

Perhaps also the laws should be changed to allow the schools more leeway on what it takes to expel a student.

Welcome to the Gulag.

Laura's post is exactly what I think Leslie was getting at. If someone is being violent, whatever the reason, it is important to protect yourself and then others.

If your daughter asked your advice about this situation, would you tell her to get help or would you tell her to try to subdue the violent man?

And Chris, I really like your irreverant posts, but can you stop with the whole sheep thing? I hate to say it, but most of the people in the world are the "sheep" you refer to. There are some leaders and many followers in the world. The world should not be made completely of leaders. Ever hear the saying "too many cooks in the kitchen"? If there weren't sheep, would would the leaders lead?

Calling people sheep will not shame them (unless they're really touchy), so I don't really see the point of bringing it up.

Okay, spotlight off my pet peeve! BTW, I'm glad you enjoyed the Etiquette Hell site.

There are good reasons for HIPAA. The benefits outweigh the drawbacks.

Well, a seizure disorder. Admitedly, it could have been something other