First...

So lame and now that I've done it once, will never do it again.

My wife never asked her mom for advice on our marriage. There were too many differences between her parents' marriage and ours, and my wife recognized that very quickly. Plus, her mom's 'advice' always came with a heaping dish of guilt, covering all the traditional issues.

It took years before her mother and my wife dropped this mom/grown daughter friction and became friends, and it took some growing on both their parts before it took place. Her mom had to realize her daughter was perfectly capable of making her own decisions and didn't want unasked for advice. My wife had to realize that every time her mom spoke to her, there wasn't a hidden meaning or guilt trip underneath the surface of the words.

IMO, it seems that the author of today doesn't need to ask her mom for advice; what she needs to do is kick her
suddenly-lazy husband out of his chair and get him back into realizing just because he got married, doesn't mean he acquired a cleaning lady in the bargain!

Chasmosaur, Being married for almost 17 years, I can tell you that The partner with the biggest emotional problems controls the terms of the relationship.

Have you tried throwing tantrums, crying, stomping out of the house and slamming the door, seeking therapy, joining a bowling league, smoking or getting drunk?

Before seeking more bad advice from your mother, you may want to try 1 or all of the above...

And then a dirty dish in the sink, or a smelly pair of socks under the bed won't seem like much of a problem at all.

I don't get this at all

I see the generational gap in parenting as much as in marriage. The safety issues alone make it seems as if we are 100 years apart and not just a generation. Car seats until the kids are 100 lbs. When we road home from the hospital in mom's lap. Bike helmets, knee pads, elbow pads make my parents laugh. Seat belts all the time, even when just going the the grocery store has taken some explaining. But they do it because I am the mother now and they respct that but they think we are a bit paranoid and need a lot of laws to raise our kids. The only safety issue that totally freaked my mother was putting the babies to bed on their backs. She was convinced that I had taken total leave of my senses. And would hawkishly watch my back sleeping daughter while she napped.

I am that older generation and boy, you would never have heard that kind of advice from me! Working families? 50 - 50 on the chores and that includes the outdoor work. It is good for the kids to see that and take part. The tricky thing about giving advice is to not seem interfering to the other spouse. That can erode the entire family relationship. So, one must be careful how they approach the subject. Humor is always good!

I think the most complex relationship is between a mother and an adult daughter. But I also find it the most rewarding. I don't think I feel a lot of guilt from my mom. But there are a lot of generational differences. It just takes some time for the older generation to accept our way of doing things. I don't ask for marital advice from my mother specifically. She has given me a lot of words of wisdom a long the way. But marriages are really different for each couple. So I am not sure general purpose marital advice from mom would apply to all situations. Best of luck getting your husband to clean. Mine is a total slob too.

Chasmosaur

"most of us go to our mothers for advice"

Who is "us"? It's not me.

Try figuring out why you are a doormat to your husband. Are you also a doormat to your friends, family members, and others?

You are setting the pattern of your relationship with your husband for the rest of your life.

If you don't want to be a servant, don't be a servant!

Don't turn into a nagging, whining shrew!

And give a LOT of thought before you have children with this Bozo.

Best of luck getting your husband to clean. Mine is a total slob too.

Well, divorce him!

I don't think it is a generational difference but a question of perspective. My mother doesn't really understand or love my husband so why would she be a good source of advice on how to get along with him? I have found my mother-in-law better for this type of advice.

After all, she raised him and knows him pretty well. My husband is also chore-challenged. The apparent unequal attention to housecleaning and chores is not a family thing--his brothers are models of neatness and cleanliness. My mother would have told me that my husband is a lazy and poor husband and I need to stand up for myself(probably she would welcome a divorce). But my mother-in-law pointed out that my husband is well-meaning but with a high tolerance for mess and rather unobservant. Combine that natural tendency with growing up with live-in maids and you get my husband. He is what he is.

So.. she says, pick the two or three things that really get your goat and focus on those (towels on the bathroom floor and plates left on the table) and insist that he change those bad habits. For the rest, just ask for help instead of expecting him to instantly see the need and do it on a volunteer basis. If it is too much trouble to ask (take out garbage, sweep floor, etc) then I should just do it myself. My husband is not my father (naturally attentive to household details and submissive to my mother) and I need to adapt my expectations and behavior to that reality.

Almost 20 years later I am still occasionally frustrated that I am still asking for what seems the most obvious chore-assistance and go a little beserk (2-3 times a year) but generally we have moved beyond this. He does do a reasonable job when asked to do a chore (it takes a long time due to lack of habit and isn't always done as I would do it). I should probably ask more and do less but I am who I am also (semi-enabler) and have to take some responsibility.

I have a wonderful, amazing mother too- at one point, she supported the household while he was in business school and she finished up her master's degree when she had infant twins at home. My parents married when they were 23 and 24 (the norm for "back then") but didn't have kids until they were 31 and 32. They've been very happily married for 39 years and are more in love now then before- I can only oray my marriage is as successful. But I would NEVER ask her for marital advice- I don't want my mother in my marriage or knowing any issues. She's also more conservative and traditional than I, so if I have gripes, I talk to my friends.

Cliftonmom is right about the safety issue. Granted, I was a small child back when cars didn't even --have-- seatbelts, but my mom would let me stand in the front seat right next to her when she drove around. One day, her mom was with us as we went to the store, and I was standing on the bench seat between them, watching the world go by.

We stopped at a traffic signal and the car behind us didn't stop in time and hit us, not hard, but hard enough. I went flying over the seat, ending up with my feet sticking up and my head between the front seat and rear seat. My mom was of course very concerned and asked if I was ok (I think I was 4 or so).

The first words out of my mouth were "I lost my marbles".

Hey, it was the truth! She had bought a bag of marbles for me, and the bag had slid under the front seat when I made my flip. Of course, that's not what --she-- thought I meant!

I generally don't ask either my mom or my mother-in-law for marriage advice. For one thing, I don't think it's fair for one spouse to complain about the other to family members. Those complaints can all too easily be the only thing a parent hears about the marriage, and can ultimately lead to the parent having a much poorer opinion of the spouse than is warranted (a lesson I learned the hard way with my first boyfriend).

For another thing, my mom is psycho, and was a bad spouse, to boot. When I told my mom I was engaged, she gave me one piece of advice (aside from "don't get married! You're ruining your life!"). She said I should open a secret bank account in my name only, an squirrel money into it every payday. While I understood her point about financial independence, I wasn't willing to start my marriage with a lie. I smiled and nodded and ignored her.

I love my mother tremendously, but she drives me insane. I'm not sure why, and it would probably require more therapy than I have money to figure it out. She is a curious blend of traditional, almost Puritanical values blended with a sort of ditzy, happy-go-lucky girl next door. She's the life of the party wherever she goes -- voted most popular and best dancer in her high school graduating class ('61). We are very different people, though probably not as different as I think. She would be very happy if I was still a SAHM -- she was, and she thinks it's the best way. (She cried when my sister put her daughter into daycare at 4 months.) My mom was thrilled that I chose to breastfeed, since she was a founder of a local La Leche League chapter when I was a baby. I definitely know her opinion on things, whether I've asked or not. I haven't had to ask her opinion about marriage because my husband and I are blessed with a wonderful relationship and our problems have yet to extend beyond the occasional spat.

My mother-in-law thinks I am nuts. She raised four children using a combination of benign neglect, lots of golf, and alcohol. (Okay, so maybe not the best role model, but she survived raising my husband and his brothers and I'm pretty sure I'd be lodging at a home for the insane after that lot.) She once sent me an article about the benefits of breastfeeding and scribbled "What a CROCK! I fed all my kids right out of the formula can." Lord knows I do not ask her for advice!

"For one thing, I don't think it's fair for one spouse to complain about the other to family members"

Your friends don't want to hear the gripes either.

I never - or very rarely - asked my mom for marital advice. Maybe because I never had to - she often gave me her opinions on things anyway. But eventually we talked as she discovered that the things she disapproved in my brother's marriage, I was also doing. She had to reconsider the "generation gap" and how things were done.

In any case, how the spouse behaves is none of mom's business. It's really up to the couple how to work things out. We also married later (in our mid 30's) so we had our siblings' marriages as role models (both good and bad). I asked them when I wanted input and chose elements of what they said.

My parents have a terrible marriage -- my dad's really controlling and my mother does everything he tells her to. (Think Archie and Edith Bunker). Can't imagine asking them for marriage advice.

But on the other hand, we've moved like 8 times in the last ten years, so it's not like I know anyone in my community really well or can discuss this with anyone else.

But do people still do that -- after a certain age? IT seems to me like it's OK to air all kinds of personal details when you're dating, but after that, communication regarding marraige pretty much shuts down with the girlfriends. How much do most of you reveal to your girlfriends anyway about your marriage?

(I'm thinking of that experience that I've had at least a couple of times where I've known someone forever, and it's only after their marriage crashes and burns and ends in a big fiery divorce, and THEN they sit you down and say, 'let me tell you what that marriage was really like' and that's when you hear about the alcohol, the drugs, the affairs, the debt, the abuse and so forth. Stiff upper lip and all that.)

NewSAHM, right on the money about not complaining to family members about your spouse. I actually don't complain about my husband to anyone except the occasional comment to my very best friend. It feels like a betrayal, even at that level. It always makes me uncomfortable when people at work or even friends really start ragging on their husbands/wives. It's like they've made me part of the conspiracy or something . . .

Would you like your husband discussing the details of your marriage with his mother? or any other third party?

Frieda's mother died before marriage but Frieda did have the perfect MIL, my sainted mother! Mom always told Frieda that I was not good enough to marry her.

Seriouly, my parents never interferred with us. They did not ask one time, "where are the grandchildren?" They did give us help when we asked.

Certainly, my parents were not perfect but a lot better than some of the parents that we hear or read about.

Best of luck getting your husband to clean. Mine is a total slob too.

Well, divorce him!

Posted by: | May 22, 2007 08:01 AM
Who would divorce their spouse based on a cleaning issue?

I am so amused at the thought of asking my mother-in-law for marriage advice. Her unsolicited advice when we got engaged was that she had been his personal maid and secretary for the past 25 years, and I could now take over. I said that he could now learn to do these tasks himself (while thinking that if she'd done her job properly, I wouldn't have to teach him to do these tasks). Luckily my DH was appalled by his mother's advice too.

But sigh, now she thinks I took her advice because I did the taxes. She sees it as I did his taxes for him. I see it as I did OUR taxes because someone had to do them. And because I'm the one who knows about financial management, as that was another thing they neglected to teach him.

I don't actually discuss DH with my friends, either, except for superficial things about parenting styles, etc.

It does bring up one issue, though. Where there is a problem, you can end up feeling pretty isolated. I don't know what to do in that type of situation (and luckily, it's only happened to me once). I still feel like it's better for a couple to work their troubles out together, but boy, would I have liked to spend some time discussing the matter with someone else.

foamgnnome

"Who would divorce their spouse based on a cleaning issue?"

A number of people divorce their spouses when they become "part of the furniture" or a "live-in servant".

Good morning...

I just wanted to extend apologies for not using my real name. It is remarkably easy to find using Google between its distinctive nature and my work. I try to keep my personal activities separate from my professional presence on the Internet. I hope you can understand.

Also - to whoever said I was a doormat - didn't say I was. I asked my Mom how she dealt with that particular problem because my Dad is something of a pack rat and cluttery kind of guy. The worst of the behaviour (at least in my husband) is corrected.

Basically, he grew up with an extra adult in the house (an older but early retired family member). She would - and still does - out of boredom go into everyone's rooms and clean since she doesn't have a whole lot else to do (big shock for me during the first family visit, let me tell you).

So he and his brothers didn't always have to pick up after themselves because most mornings she would quite literally go into their rooms in the morning while they were eating breakfast to STRIP beds and immediately throw PJ's and linens in the washer. It was like having maid service.

Since I told him I'm not a maid service, he pretty much confines his clutter to our closet. Works for me ;)

And to those who have said don't ask your mother about stuff - I've learned not to ask her about big things and she's not really "in" my marriage at this point. It was an early, rookie mistake ;) However, my husband travels for business a lot back in DC and they actually see him more often than myself. He lets things spill. Then I get a phone call and I'm back discussing parts of my marriage I'd rather keep private.

I actually have to run out today - all-day client meeting thing - so I unfortunately won't be able to do a whole lot (if any) responding. So I'll just go ahead and let my ears burn today ;)

"Who would divorce their spouse based on a cleaning issue?"

Nobody that's capable of maintaining a good marriage in the first place. I can think of few issues more petty. Drinking out of the milk carton? Peeing in the shower? Putting the toilet paper "over" rather than "under"?

Father of 4,
Why do men pee in the shower? My guess is because they can but it is just gross. I mean the toilet is right there.

It's worse with the parenting than the marriage. My mom is having fits that I'm not giving up my (hard fought and hard earned) career to stay home with the baby. Guilt trips every time we speak. But in my world, none of the professinal women I know stay home - it's just a totally different world, and one that she simply isn't going to understand.

Kathrina

How on earth does your MIL know that you do the taxes?

Best of luck getting your husband to clean. Mine is a total slob too.

Well, divorce him!

Posted by: | May 22, 2007 08:01 AM
Who would divorce their spouse based on a cleaning issue?

Posted by: foamgnome | May 22, 2007 08:37 AM

Oh...it's definitely grounds for divorce! So is leaving the cap off the toothpaste, not putting the toilet seat down, leaving underwear on the floor, etc. Lots of reasons to get a divorce. But are they good reasons? Maybe.

It's a woman's job to cook, and clean, and take good are of her husband. That's her genetic destiny.

I rarely asked my mother for advice. The few times I did try to talk to her, she gave me the standard suck-it-up speech that typified her generation. Besides, she adored STBX, so if there was a problem, it HAD to me me. She has yet to admit she was wrong in any way about him. Oh, well. I love her anyway, and if I want to make her feel included and helpful, I ask her for gardening advice.

About seatbelts: We also grew up not wearing them; my mother drove a '66 Mustang, and I don't think it had rear seat belts. My sister was a stander -- she stood for every family vacation (and, in those days, we took car trips, like everybody else). So, I didn't wear them either, even when I started driving.

Well, when I was 20, I was borrowing my dad's Buick to go on a trip to the mountains the next day with STBX (we met in college). I had a Beetle in college, he had a motorcycle, and we were camping. Anyway, I fell asleep and hit the back of a truck. I don't remember the accident, but witnesses said I went through the windshield face-first, then was flung into the back seat. However, I DO remember the 43 stitches it took to reattach my nose, all without anesthesia (I had a concussion as well). Fortunately, no bones were broken. The most prominent lasting effect is from the near-total absence of nerve endings and blood vessels in my nose. It's sort of like a thermostat -- my nose gets cold and red if the temperature goes below 65 degrees in the house.

So, I am incredibly neurotic about seatbelts. If you get in my car, you better put on your seatbelt. I won't even turn on the engine until you do; I don't care how old you are. My friends, coworkers and parents have all heard the abridged version of my little lecture. I even wore mine when I was on the way to the hospital to give birth, and I was HUGE. My sons and all their friends have heard the 'nose story' in far more detail than I related it here (nothing like a little 'blood & guts' to get boys to listen to you), and NOBODY gives me an argument.

It's a woman's job to stay home, cook and clean for her husband, make sure he has lots of "guy time" out with his friends, give him sex anytime he asks for it, take care of the kids, make sure he's not "bothered" with too much of the mundane tasks, etc. Then it's the man's job to go out and make money, and to buy his wife some flowers and gifts to keep the little woman happy. That's how it's supposed to be...just as Dr. Laura.

"It's a woman's job to cook, and clean, and take good are of her husband. That's her genetic destiny."

Lucky me, I don't have husband!

"Why do men pee in the shower?"

1. Keeps the toilet a little cleaner, - no spatter.
2. Don't have to worry about putting the seat down (good husbands consider this)
3. Environmentally friendlier - saves a flush.

I mean, who doesn't pee in the shower? After the hot water relaxes the bladder, you're telling me that someone will hold it until their shower is over? Then, especially for girls, isn't it more gross to ssquat on the seat with a wet butt?

"How on earth does your MIL know that you do the taxes?"

Well, FIL and DH are on the phone. FIL asks DH, "Have you done your taxes yet?" DH replies, "My lovely wife did them weeks ago". No reason not to answer truthfully when asked.

Chasmosaur, given the fruit loops that sometimes post on this blog, and the recent article detailing the stalking of people who post with their real names on blogs in general, I would recommend that guest posters NEVER use a name with which they could be tracked. I think it should be the norm, unless you're a writer and want to be known for what you post . . .

I totally don't understand the issue of having a husband who is a slob. Especially for those of us who marries in our early 30's or close to it, the men lived on their own for a period of time. So, it is not as if they don't know how to do laundry/dishes.

As for me, we each take care of things. If one of us is working late, the other takes care of the house and makes dinner. "Traditional roles" really don't matter. I thought this is one of the good parts about waiting until later to get married. It is easier to achieve balance with someone who has already cared for himself. No?

chamosaur asked a simple question, "how do others on this board cope with the generational gap?"
i'll give my simple answer, i don't ask my mother for marriage advice, specifically. she and my dad have been married for 50 years in october, i'm celebrating my 29th anniversary this year (got married when i was 19). i knew what it took because i'd seen my mother and two grandmothers have long, successful marriages...hard work, not caring who gets credit, ignoring the small stuff--and i hate to say it but lots of the 'stuff' of life is small, fighting fair, sharing values but maybe not sharing every single interest. the number one thing for me was that i'm too stubborn to quit and i respect the person i married, which was one reason why i married him. i try to remember that when he leaves his infernal cups of water throughout the house!

"I totally don't understand the issue of having a husband who is a slob. Especially for those of us who marries in our early 30's or close to it, the men lived on their own for a period of time. So, it is not as if they don't know how to do laundry/dishes. "

Some husbands may know how to do housework, but they DON'T WANT to do housework if they can find a maid who will do it for them.

I see this big generation gap, and I think my mother does too. She quit college to get married at 20 (!), and embarked with my father on his diplomatic career. She raised kids overseas with domestic help and did not hold a full time job, just a few volunteer positions, until I was nearly done with high school.

If DH and I were to have kids (not likely), we would be where many people on this blog are: juggling kids and jobs and trying to mitigate the potential negative impacts of that juggling act.

Thankfully I think my mom gets this, and that's why she isn't nagging us for grandchildren.

Well, my parents divorced, so I don't ask either of them for marital advice.

I do complain to my mom, though. She's my best friend, and she's the only person I would want to complain to. My other friends are either unmarried (and have no useful advice) or have kids (and have much bigger issues.) When I complain about my hubby not cleaning or not listening, she just nods. She knows that I just want to vent and spares the advice (which would surely be "most men are complete pigs.")

We do get advice about kids, though, from both moms. When we talk about our decision not to have kids, both moms are 100% behind us. I guess they know us well enough to encourage us not to have kids. They also both seem to have lost whatever tolerance they had for little kids.

"How on earth does your MIL know that you do the taxes?"

Well, FIL and DH are on the phone. FIL asks DH, "Have you done your taxes yet?" DH replies, "My lovely wife did them weeks ago". No reason not to answer truthfully when asked.

A simple "yes" would have sufficed.

It's a woman's job to cook, and clean, and take good are of her husband. That's her genetic destiny.

Posted by: | May 22, 2007 08:53 AM

Only in your dreams. Not gonna happen, though.

Men do know how to keep house but as soon as we are married, someone insist:

1) No more eating over the sink

2) No more paper plates and plastic silverware

3) No more sniff test to find out if clothes are wearable

4) No more bare walls--walls must have pictures or something on them

5) Curtains/Blinds must be opened/closed every day

6) More furniture is required beyond a frig, TV and lazy boy chair

7) Blankets can no longer do double duty as sheets

8) Meals have to be (at least) warmed up in the house versus take out

9) Glasses or cups must be used to drink liquids

(There are some more things which have been mentioned earlier)

So you see that men know how to keep a house but women demand other "unnecessary" stuff in the household that need some sort of cleaning/maintenance.

"Let's face it -- most of us go to our mothers for advice, as much as we may or may not want to."

You lost me with this opening sentence. Why do some people feel the need to view their personal choices as representative of the norm?

"How on earth does your MIL know that you do the taxes?"

Well, FIL and DH are on the phone. FIL asks DH, "Have you done your taxes yet?" DH replies, "My lovely wife did them weeks ago". No reason not to answer truthfully when asked.

Posted by: Kathrina | May 22, 2007 09:03 AM

Instruct DH hereafter to answer "Yes" and provide no further info, no matter how much his father asks. It's none of his father's business, except in the remote possibility that his father is paying your taxes (yeah, right).

Instruct DH hereafter to answer "Yes" and provide no further info, no matter how much his father asks. It's none of his father's business, except in the remote possibility that his father is paying your taxes (yeah, right).

Posted by: TMI | May 22, 2007 09:22 AM

Controlling much? Katrina and her husband can decide for themselves how to communicate with their respective parents without your advice on communications.

Armchair quarterbacks rarely have marriages and relationships worth emulating.

Is it that time already?

I would never ask my mother for marriage advice either. She would tell me - as she did with my first marriage - to "suck it up ... these are the cards you've been dealt so you have to live with them." When I divorced my first husband because he was a huge slob among other problems, my mother told me I'd be alone for the rest of my life. But I remarried. So I typically ask my Rabbi for marriage advice and stick to gardening and cooking topics with my mom.

"Armchair quarterbacks rarely have marriages and relationships worth emulating."

Such as you.

Mako; When the blog starts out with a dishes/laundry complaint, and the guest writer leaves, and KLB/Fo4 go back and forth about peeing in the toilet, the blog has surely tanked.

Let the jump contest begin!

The best advice that my mother ever gave me was "Your marriage is unique. Nobody else can give you advice that will work for you because everybody else's marriage is very different from yours. Only you can decide what will work and what won't." She's right. Nobody can tell you how to be successfully married, only you can set the rules and only you can enforce them.
Take heart, we're all stumbling through this.

I don't see a gap here. Your Mom said she tried to support your Dad because he worked hard. She respected what he did to support her and you.

She also ran the household with the same dedication. Your Dad picked up after himself because he respected your Mom.

If he'd ditched his job he would have heard from her plenty! If she's not had supper ready she'd have heard from him! They had their positions and they lived up to them.

Is there any better martial advice than that? Respect and love your spouse as you wish to be respected and loved. Act in a way that will help them to be happy. Times may change but being a good partner is pretty timeless.

"Armchair quarterbacks rarely have marriages and relationships worth emulating."

Such as you.

Posted by: | May 22, 2007 09:42 AM

There's nothing quite like the insightful comments of a troll to enhance our understanding of the issues.

"So you see that men know how to keep a house but women demand other "unnecessary" stuff in the household that need some sort of cleaning/maintenance."

Agreed. I actually got married at 23. I only lived on my own for a year. My ex-wife never lived on her own. But she decided to have problems with the way I do housework. Of course, sometimes it the man who has higher standards for neatness and lower tolerance for another persons's relaxed attitude.

In any case, I think it's something plenty of people overlook even when they don't get married till their 30's. They are such a great person until you start living together and then suddenly there is a need to treat the other person like a child and "train" them simply because the other person is not as neat as you or is not bothered by the same things. I say whoever gets bothered by something first should take care of it. There's nothing wrong with asking your spouse to do it, but he/she certainly has the right to refuse to do it or do it 2 months later. If you can't handle that, and feel the need to "train" or treat your spouse like a child, then perhaps it is a divorce issue.

On Complaining about your husband - I try not to do it to our friends. It really is none of their business and our good friends know all of our quirks anyways, so there is no need to point them out.

Fred - those 9 tips for new husbands have been printed out and will be lying on my husband's pillow when he comes home tonight. We have been arguing about putting up pictures in the living room for 10 years - some things never get resolved!!!

Well, mom passed before I met dh, but I would love to know why she stayed with dad for so long, why she married him in the first place, etc.
I would never ask anyone in my immediate family for advice as they are in their own abusive marriages. When my sister was pregnant, mom actually said to her that she shouldn't go back to work after baby-that she should stay home. How nice. I had a similar thought, actually-but would never have said that to sister because it would only make her feel bad (however, sister has no second thoughts about telling you exactly what she thinks at all times). I found mom's advice odd, tho, since mom raised three independent women to go out and get jobs-we weren't taught to cook, expected to clean, etc.
I wouldn't ask mil for advice either. Since it is one set of rules for me and another set for her daughters (she lobbied for me to stay home after ds no 1 (I did but not because of mil) and yet said nothing when her daughter did not even stay at home after she had no 1-it was a fabulous idea then).

I don't really ask my mother for marriage advice. I don't think she would know how to advise me. She has been a SAHM since her children were born, and was initially appalled that my husband and I worked out an arrangement in which I work and he takes care of the kid. Even so, my relationship with my mom is good. While I don't seek her advice on my marriage, we spend time together and talk a lot. She is very invested in her grandson. She treats him differently (a lot more indulgently) than she treated her own kids, and some things she does I just don't do at home, but I pretty much let her do things her way when she is in charge. I am not about to criticize the childraising skills of a women who raised 4 successful children. My son knows that there is one set of rules with grandma, and another one with me, and everyone seems happy that way. There is a generation gap, but that's okay with me. We don't have to think alike on all things. We just have to respect that we are different, and not try to change the other person.

foamgnome - it was a JOKE. (not a metaphor though)

Controlling much? Katrina and her husband can decide for themselves how to communicate with their respective parents without your advice on communications.

Armchair quarterbacks rarely have marriages and relationships worth emulating.

Posted by: | May 22, 2007 09:27 AM

Following your logic, the husband's parents should have more input into a marriage than the wife. You suggest a wife is controlling if she objects to her husband telling their personal business to his parents.

In fact the controlling people in this case are the husband's father who asks his married adult son whether the couple's taxes are done yet (NOYB), and the mother who later brings up the topic to her daughter-in-law. Why is this controlling? Because it's none of the parents' business (assuming they aren't footing the younger couple's tax bil).

The son is an enabler who wittingly or otherwise provides his parents ammunition to lob at his wife. For a marriage to succeed, a spouse's first loyalty must be to his/her spouse. To me my marriage is better because my spouse respects our privacy and doesn't blab our personal business to our parents. YMMV.

Disclaimer: In the case of abusive marriages and relationships, all bets are off, since the abuser is by virtue of his/her behavior NOT being loyal to the other spouse in the first place, so the target of the abuse may be justified in choosing to tell his/her parents, in the process of seeking help to correct or escape the abusive relationship.

I think it's a really interesting question though - who DO you ask for advice?

My mother is not someone I ask for advice from for a wide variety of reasons, although she offers it on a regular basis. :) I don't really have a village elder/mentor in my life on a personal level. Mostly I muddle through on my own and vent to friends who are far removed from any situations (like over the internet).

I get a lot of -information- from the 'net including this blog. But I don't really have a great source of wisdom - I often feel like we are just making things up as we go along.

I blame the pace of change - as a society we have a lot of wisdom about how to handle physical limits in monogamous relationships, for example, but not so much around emotional ones (perhaps because men and women were more segregated in their spheres of influence in the past), and really not a lot of experience for weird things like are flirty remarks on AIM or in blog comments the same as flirting with a waiter in front of one's spouse, etc.

Sometimes I feel like I spend energy muddling through vaguely new things (My spouse on his Blackberry during vacation: thing to be upset about, or not?) and I think poor me. Of course then I think of my mother's generation going through the women's lib movement and totally revamping their lives and I realize that maybe the Blackberry question is minor in comparison.

Nice topic!

"Because it really bothered me that even though my husband and I both had similar, 60+ hour per week jobs, five minutes after I moved in he mysteriously decided he was no longer responsible for doing any domestic chores and turned into a slob."

Chasmosaur,

I can't understand why you were having this discussion with your mother instead of with your husband.

You're a mature, intelligent career woman. Having decided to change your life in a significant way by getting married, you embarked on what should be a wholly new experience shared with -- and negotiated with -- your husband.

Your mother has no place in this situation.

Please rethink how you're managing your life and your marriage. If you and your husband are to have a partnership, then the two of you must be each other's "primary" person. There's no room for mom in this equation.

Chasmosaur: Grow a spine.

"For a marriage to succeed, a spouse's first loyalty must be to his/her spouse. "

Bingo!

Following your logic, the husband's parents should have more input into a marriage than the wife. You suggest a wife is controlling if she objects to her husband telling their personal business to his parents.

Posted by: | May 22, 2007 10:16 AM

Logic certainly has not place in your post or the conclusions to which you've jumped. Both sentences above are absured and have nothing to do with what I posted. The person who is controlling is TMI and you, 10:16.

To recap, TMI posted the following: "Instruct DH hereafter to answer "Yes" and provide no further info, no matter how much his father asks."

Any poster who orders someone, in this case, Katrina, to "instruct" her spouse how to behave, communicate, or where to pee, is acting like an armchair quarterback and inciting trouble between two spouses who get along fine.

If you don't understand the difference between offering your personal experience or opinion as food for thought, and acting like a quarterback directing the plays in other's marriages, you do in fact have a problem with logic, communication and vocabulary.

I don't ask mom for marriage advice (not married), and when I mention some minor slight I might feel in my relationship, I get the "Well, you just tell him to XYZ" or "Well, he shouldn't be doing that!" I tend to go to girlfriends more than mom, but who knows once I actually get married.

As far as cleaning issues, BF is the neat one. When we discuss our future places of residence, he preemptively tells me he wants me to do more around the house. Inevitably, this comes off to me as "I want you to do more than me" when what he means is "I want you to do more than you do now." Then I get defensive and feel like he's trying to assign me a role based on my gender, when what he's trying to tell me is he doesn't want me on the couch eating Cheese Doodles while he's scrubbing toilets. We've both found communication to be an excellent tool in avoiding major conflict, but it took us a year of screaming phone fights to get to this point. But I guess that's what dating is all about, right? ;-)

My parents were married almost 40 years until my dad passed away too young. They had some tough tough times. Observing their marriage made me set "my" standards for "my" marriage. However, I failed to see how strong my mom was during those "bad" times of her marriage until my marriage failed. My parents were the happiest after the children were grown then I'd ever seen them. I wished I'd seen that in my mom and dealt with issues better. I admire my mom for never interfering in my life. How I wish I'd dealt better with issues in my marriage - just like she did. Divorce s u c ks.

My mom is awesome. Sometimes we don't appreciate people as much as we should.

"five minutes after I moved in he mysteriously
decided he was no longer responsible for doing any domestic chores"

Well, a man should at least get something out of that 2 months salary he spent on that chunk of carbon.

Does YMMV=you make me vomit? I have been trying to figure it out for weeks!

F04, YMMV.

Your mileage may vary. But I like yours better.

YMMV = your mileage may vary

OT to atlmom--

From yesterday, I didn't take offense at your comment about the art course. I was responding to the "basketweaving" commentor, and I meant to be tongue in cheek. I don't find you to be snarky at all. I enjoy your perspective.

I have to admit that while I didn't choose an art class because I thought it would be an easy A, I was a bit surprised (hey, I was young and naive) that effort and/or achieving one's potential as limited by talent didn't carry more weight grade-wise.

I do agree that it's ultimately unwise to complain to parents or friends about our spouses (especially parents). It is much better to confront the offending spouse directly and deal with the problem than to complain to other people. Plus, when it comes to the average marriage difficulties, it is disloyal to trash your spouse to your parents and friends. Imagine how you would feel if your husband or wife talked about you to his or her parents behind your back. This just causes more problems and divides families. I have a brother in law who complains to his family about his wife. She is not really that bad, from my perspective, but he is a really baby. His family hates her. And then he wonders why his family and his wife can't get along. Most people think he is easygoing and nice because he doesn't set any boundaries and always pleases whomever he is with. But I have lost all respect for him because I can see that he has no backbone.

"As far as cleaning issues, BF is the neat one. When we discuss our future places of residence, he preemptively tells me he wants me to do more around the house. Inevitably, this comes off to me as "I want you to do more than me" when what he means is "I want you to do more than you do now." Then I get defensive and feel like he's trying to assign me a role based on my gender, when what he's trying to tell me is he doesn't want me on the couch eating Cheese Doodles while he's scrubbing toilets. We've both found communication to be an excellent tool in avoiding major conflict, but it took us a year of screaming phone fights to get to this point. But I guess that's what dating is all about, right? ;-)"

Well, actually, no. Not in mature, committed, communicative relationships that aren't doomed from the very beginning.

Mona,
I love it!! We have a new acromym. I always hated the standard "your mileage may vary" phrase. You make me vomit is sooo much more meaningful. Thanks!!!

CMAC

I do not do wall hanging stuff. Even after the hurricane, I did not put up the paintings (yes, we have real paintings), prints (Monet and Manet), tapestries, and other stuff. Some one else did it. Not me.

"Well, actually, no. Not in mature, committed, communicative relationships that aren't doomed from the very beginning."

I'm curious as to why you make it sound like you think we are doomed from the beginning. I can see why you may think we are (he is) uncommitted, since he's broken up with me a few times. We have talked about that several times and are still working through it. And it's true that we can both be very immature. But we've lasted over a year in a difficult, cross-country, mixed-race, mixed-religion, mixed-socioeconomic-status relationship with no major damage, and we still love each other more than ever. I know that can't compare with many of the 20+ years of marriage some people are experiencing, but it's a good start. Tell me, why do you think we were doomed from the beginning?

I interpret Chasmasaur's mom's advice as you should be selfless in your marriage and work for your spouse not against. I haven't been married very long, but my father made very clear to me the importance of this when I was getting married. I don't think it should be about comparing who works more or harder, because your dedication should be unconditional towards your spouse.

Oh please - hire a cleaning service.

Mona,

Ignore 10:40 a.m.

While the road you're taking to relationship enlightenment may be rocky, the fact that you've learned to hear what your BF is really saying and that you're aware that sometimes you hear these comments very differently from how he means them is proof that you're willing to do the self-examination necessary to any good partnership.

If you BF has the same inclinations, it bodes well for your future together.

As far as advise goes, I don't think I ever asked for marriage advise from my mom. I can't specifically remember. Some things may have come up, but since I don't remember, I guess it wasn't earth shattering. But, I do recall my mom helping me learn how to live in a house. Places I never thought I had to clean, tips about basic house-owning. I thought that was great. I did a lot of stuff in my house growing up, but there was a lot I didn't know about.

Sadly, my mom died while I was pregnant with #1, so I never got to learn all of her secrets of childrearing. I think I would have really enjoyed her perspective. We were able to go baby stuff shopping, and she was so excited about all the new gadgets. So I heard lots of stories about when I was a baby as we shopped.

She wasn't a big 'advice' giver, but she was a great listener, and I learned a lot from her.

My first generation gap issue with my mom came up when I asked her to come visit as soon as we have the baby so she can help teach me how to take care of it. She was nervous about the prospect because she was scared all her knowledge was completely obsolete. Given that she quite successfully raised two kids, I thought it was cute.

Sorry about the 'advise'/'advice' typos. I'm a horrible editor.

Chasmosaur, easiest solution is to hire a maid to come by once or twice a week. If you are both working 60+ neither one of you is going to want to be doing much around the house. Find a cleaning service to drop your laundry off with and pick up take-out a couple of nights a week.
For the day-to-day picking up have a twenty-to-fifteen minute clean up session every evening, let him decide what he wants to be responsible for. Take a cooking class together or buy a good cookbook and make a couple of meals on the weekend that you can derive some decent leftovers from during the week. It's possible that this problem has nothing to do with male/female role issues. The guy has probably always been a slob and just did a good job of hiding it before you got married (they do try to impress). I think your actual question was about the generation gap with your mom though... I can't even begin to give you any suggestion about what to do there. I've always seen my mom as being such a DOORMAT. I guess you could say that I'm a little bit more take-charge. I tell my father he's just lucky he got my mom and not someone like me, becuase when you get right down to it she is the one that made my family work. Alot of women of that generation see it as their job to be the architect of everyone else's happiness. Sometimes I find myself wanting to look down on my mom for being so docile, but I think that is a big mistake, she did chose the life she has created and she deserves more credit than that. Just admire her handywork. Women like that prop up the world of emotionally-handicapped childlike-men (whom I would prefer to take a verbal whacking to) and keep it all running smoothly.

Prairie dog, I'm sorry to hear about your mother. I bet having fun with you preparing for your first made her last year very enjoyable.

And thanks for the vote of confidence, pittypat. I tend to agree with you, but if anon at 10:40 would like to lend a little insight, I'd be happy to hear why s/he is so pessimistic.

Although I don't ask my mom for marital advice, per se, we do complain together my darling husband's very minor shortcomings (ha!) and the hilarious, totally unsafe and ridiculous things my dad used to do with us kids. She's a woman, a mom and a wife, and she totally understands where I'm coming from.

I don't ask my Mom for marriage advice. My parents have been married close to 40 years, but they're a mess! They love each other, respect each other, and tease each other, though, and that's taught me a ton. I do ask baby advice. They raised "good citizens," and I hope to do the same, though we'll be stricter.

If I need marriage or general life advice, I ask DH to ask his sister. She's not perfect, but DH's side of the family is very wise, and I respect that wisdom. There is NO WAY we'd ask DH's brother or my brother or sister. And his parents are great, but their experiences are SO different from ours. There's a huge gap, there. His Mom was raised with a dirt floor by an Assembly of God minister. She couldn't show her ankles. She's turned out amazing, and sometimes her advice is incredible, but she floors me with some of the stuff she comes up with!

How about this approach to the TMI situation on who did the couple's taxes:

Kathrina ASKS her husband how he feels about his mother reacting as though she (the wife) had done her husband's taxes for him, rather than for them as a couple. Either he thinks his mother's behavior was entirely appropriate, or not. If not, Kathrina can then ASK him for his SUGGESTIONS on how they can prevent MIL's behavior from recurring.

If Kathrina's husband thinks nothing was wrong with his mother's comments, then Kathrina can use "I" statements to rationally express her thoughts on the matter, in order to try to PERSUADE her husband to recognize her viewpoint as valid.

"if anon at 10:40 would like to lend a little insight, I'd be happy to hear why s/he is so pessimistic."

Mona,

I don't think s/he is pessimistic. I think s/he's just snotty.

But kudos to you for having a much more open mind than this old lady! :>)

"I totally don't understand the issue of having a husband who is a slob. Especially for those of us who marries in our early 30's or close to it, the men lived on their own for a period of time. So, it is not as if they don't know how to do laundry/dishes."

Actually, my husband was still living at home when we were dating (it's a cultural thing). Surprisingly he's not the slob in our house....I am!!! I'm working on being less of a slob :-)

I generally don't talk to my mother about problems we're having because I don't want to ruin her relationship with him. I have talked to his sister and mother on occasion.

My wife's mom refused to let her do anything for herself; I had to grow up in limited space among two parents and three siblings in a 1100 sf home. Consequently, what I see as "clutter" my wife sees as "her stuff, organized as I want".

It's caused some disagreement between us, since I learned early on to keep things organized or they'd disappear. She sees any attempt to tidy up as "messing with her stuff". So, I build her cabinets and desks and drawers to put "her stuff" in; so far I've had mixed results. She does use them for storage, but it also seems as if more stuff just keeps appearing...

A correction on my earlier post: the house eventually got to 1100 sf. When I was growing up it was actually closer to 900 sf. My dad and us boys enclosed and insulated the back porch, and my older brother moved out there, then it was 1100 sf.

TMI, As opposed to your initial comment, your revised approach neither orders Katrina, nor recommends that Katrina talks to her husband as though he is 5 years old. Any approach that combines respectful communication with real listening skills is bound to contribute to a stronger marraige than the approach you initially recommended. Eliminating the shouting and condescension suggested by all-caps is also a good idea.

"Why do men pee in the shower?"

When I found out that my DH peed in the shower I wasn't sure if I could love him so much anymore, so I went and asked my mom about it. She said it's okay, dad did it too, that it's a man's genetic destiny. And now were very happily married again.

Eliminating the shouting and condescension suggested by all-caps is also a good idea.

Posted by: | May 22, 2007 11:17 AM

Touchy much?

How do you know if someone else pees in the shower, assuming the shower water washes it down the drain, and assuming the pee-er doesn't tell you?

"Why do men pee in the shower?"

When I found out that my DH peed in the shower I wasn't sure if I could love him so much anymore, so I went and asked my mom about it. She said it's okay, dad did it too, that it's a man's genetic destiny. And now were very happily married again.

Posted by: mammamia | May 22, 2007 11:20 AM

This is just weird on so many levels.

Men pee in the shower because it saves water and avoids getting the floor of the bathroom sopping wet when we get out and walk over to the toilet. It all goes to the same place anyway.

Also because we can.

On truemomconfessions, many women also say that they pee in the shower!

Chasmosaur,
I don't ask my mom for too much advice, for the very same reasons. But I do look to my sisters and friends (and vice-versa) precisely because of the generation gap. We are all around the same age, and can relate to each other's problems--in marriages and relationships. Ultimately I look to my mother for help with my daughter rather than for marital advice.

And I don't think sharing marital problems with your close friends is a betrayal to your spouse. Sometimes there are issues that our spouses don't undertand and it's easier to discuss it with other women who can sympathize and give you a new perspective about it. I rather we be open and aware of our issues together rather than take valiant attempts to keep them under lock and key.

Father of 4,
Why do men pee in the shower? My guess is because they can but it is just gross. I mean the toilet is right there.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | May 22, 2007 08:46 AM

__________________________________

Asking Father of 4 why men do something is like asking Paris Hilton why women do something. Not exactly a typical (or even adequate) representative of the gender.

ellenb

"And I don't think sharing marital problems with your close friends is a betrayal to your spouse."

Would you like your husband to share marital problems with his close friends?

On truemomconfessions, many women also say that they pee in the shower!

Posted by: | May 22, 2007 11:31 AM

Shhh!!! the men aren't supposed to know that!

"Men pee in the shower because it saves water and avoids getting the floor of the bathroom sopping wet when we get out and walk over to the toilet. It all goes to the same place anyway."

Why not pee before you get in the shower?

ellenb

"And I don't think sharing marital problems with your close friends is a betrayal to your spouse."

Would you like your husband to share marital problems with his close friends?

Posted by: | May 22, 2007 11:36 AM

Exactly! Many women live this double standard.

Why not pee before you get in the shower?

There is the efficiency issue and the water saving issue!

anon @ 11:38

Sometimes, as Fo4 said, the shower helps relax the bladder and we just need to go right then, rather than prior to getting in the shower.

"Men pee in the shower because it saves water and avoids getting the floor of the bathroom sopping wet when we get out and walk over to the toilet. It all goes to the same place anyway."

So does poop.

You and I will NEVER be houseguests in each other's homes. Yuck!

So does poop.

Has the blogersation ever degraded so badly before?

Wow, I feel so normal now. The mother/daughter relationship is the most complex and I do not feel it will ever really be explained.

I do not ask my mother for advice on my marriage. This is something very private between my husband and me. I do recognize that my mother is a wonderful listener that would give me the shirt off her back. (I would of course pay for this gift with a heaping pile of guilt to be dished out a later date).

The generation gap is large even though our age difference is not. My mother grew up overseas and did not relate to life when I was young and does not have a true grasp even now. What she does have is a shoulder and two ears. She listens when I too talk of the messes from my husband, who was raised in a 50's style household when his mother cleaned, cooked and did the laundry and the house was always perfect.

I have found that while she doesn't truly understand or grasp the dynamics of my marriage, she is looking out for my best interests. I will always be her child and she will always want to protect me, even if it is so I won't be taken advantage of.

Mona -- I suspect the 10:40 comment comes from different expectations/experiences. Personally, if I had spent a year having repeated screaming fits with my (future) husband, we wouldn't be married now. We're generally not yellers, so if it had gotten to that point for us, it would have signified very, very bad things. On the other hand, my SIL and BIL tend to be the Bickersons -- there's always something going on, always that undertone of annoyance. When I first met them, I thought, dang, THAT can't last. But they've actually been together almost 20 years now -- that's just their style. The only important thing is whether how you two behave works for the two of you.

Advice from mom? It's an interesting topic. Usually it's the other way around -- my mom dotes on her granddaughter, and my daughter knows how to work it, so it's usually her asking me how to rein the girl in (I do get a kick out of watching my daughter get away with all sorts of crap that I would have been booted for even THINKING as a kid).

I've also learned to filter what she says, because what she wants for me isn't always what I want. She grew up in the 50s with very limited career options, and while she's been very successful on the paths that were available to her, she does take great pride in my career -- and doesn't understand that I might not be interested in maximum, A-1, top-of-the-ladder career success.

For ex., early on in my marriage, I mentioned that I might go part-time if/when we had kids. She didn't like -- "well, I always managed a full-time job AND a child, even as a single mother, so I'm sure YOU can, too." I wasn't sure whether to laugh or get angry, but just told her that she really didn't have much of a clue. She was a college prof; yes, she worked VERY hard, but mostly at home on nights and weekends -- so she got to see me a lot, and didn't have to worry about after-care and all of that. Very different from working lawyer full-time and commuting into DC from Rockville. I also suggested that if she really wanted to understand how hard it is, perhaps she should talk to my stepfather, who has been getting up at 5:30 AM to take the train to DC for almost 20 yrs (and who works for the government and so has it "easier" than I would have).

Of course, being a mom, she's managed to turn my own part-time status into a success on its own -- now she sees it as I must be REALLY smart to be able to be a part-time partner. :-) And it's really, really nice to know there's one person on the planet who is going to turn anything I do into more evidence of how smart and wonderful and special I am (I'm thinking she should be the lawyer here, given her amazing ability to twist any fact to suit her own purposes).

Chasmosaur, I have been having the same issue with my parents--while I would love to seek their wisdom on some of my problems, I know that they haven't experienced some of the situations I'm in.

As with many of the other posters, I don't want to trash Mr Bee to our friends, most of whom are mutual friends. And, I am not much for venting. I don't want people to agree with me and complain together--I want to discuss a problem with a view to finding a real solution.

As a result Mr Bee and I are in marriage counselling. It isn't cheap but so far, it's really great. It's been four weeks and already we are finding it a whole lot easier to communicate and we're feeling closer than ever. I don't know what people did before marriage counsellors--my guess would be other people in objective positions like spiritual leaders would have filled this role (and likely still do for many people).

What do you mean? My dh never thinks there are problems...he's very happy! And if there were problemss (which there aren't), I'm always understanding. But I guess he has to talk about something with his friends, so I think it's fine.

Total b.s.

My spouse is totally confident with himself and doesn't mind and neither do I.

My in-laws are extremely involved and interfering in the marriages of their two daughters. DH and I saw this pattern early on and made a strong commitment to not discuss our marriage with our respective families. True, it can be lonely when you come upon a bad situation. But I shudder to think what meddling would have occurred if we would have involved them in some of our issues. I don't think our marriage would have survived.
This is clearly the case with my two SIL's. Their mother speaks with them by phone 5 or 6 times a day. She knows every intimate detail of their marriages and despises and demeans their husbands. Every time there is a fight they're on the mommy hotline and it creates a new rift between MIL and spouse.

My parents had an extreme meddler in the form of my dad's mom. They had to deal with lots of manipulation and game playing. (Grandma just happening to be driving down the street when I'm walking home from 2nd grade, offering me a ride and then grilling me about my parents and grandfathers lives.) They have adopted a hands off policy. They love us, they would be there for us in a true crisis, but if I had ever tried to involve them in routine conflict and pulled the "I'm going home to mom and dad" stuff, they would boot me right back to my DH. It's worked for me for the past 15 years.

So does poop.

Has the blogersation ever degraded so badly before?

Posted by: | May 22, 2007 11:45 AM

The difference is that the toilet has a much larger pipe, typically 4" diameter to conduct waste solids where a shower has only a 2" pipe. The 2" waste pipe is only suitable to conduct liquids.

"Why not pee before you get in the shower?"

I would rather save time and pee while I'm washing my hair. Its a more efficient multitasking solution.

Also, the question "Have you ever peed in the shower?" is a great honesty test for perspective mates. There are 2 types of people:
1. People that have peed in the shower.
2. People that lie about it.

Of course, being a mom, she's managed to turn my own part-time status into a success on its own -- now she sees it as I must be REALLY smart to be able to be a part-time partner. :-) And it's really, really nice to know there's one person on the planet who is going to turn anything I do into more evidence of how smart and wonderful and special I am (I'm thinking she should be the lawyer here, given her amazing ability to twist any fact to suit her own purposes).

Posted by: Laura | May 22, 2007 11:46 AM

I think that's really great. My Mom (and Dad) is very proud of my career, even if it's not very exciting both of them have been very encouraging. Sometimes I think just the fact that I am employed is enough to please them. Must be a generational difference to value employment that much.

Men peeing in showers- is that the same as a Golden Shower?

"Father of 4,
Why do men pee in the shower? My guess is because they can but it is just gross. I mean the toilet is right there."

OK, I'm female, but I don't see what is so gross about this. It's not like they leave a puddle.

"Why do men pee in the shower?"

For the same reason they pee in the pool.

OT:
To marian: oh, I wasn't upset or anything. I was trying to make a point and someone blasted me for something not related to the point (I don't think it was you). It was actually funny to me. Cause I did have friends in HS who took all the art classes. They could-and they went to art school. I could probably not have gone to the art schools since I took as little art as possible. So all my point was was that the schools look at the courses you take and not just the grades. Certainly not that art is easy-cause for me is definitely *is* harder than calculus! To make, I guess, not to enjoy.
I feel like I have to watch how I phrase everything!

Men peeing in showers- is that the same as a Golden Shower?

Posted by: | May 22, 2007 11:52 AM

No, not the same thing at all!

I am willing to fess up, on this anonymous board, that I, a woman, have been known to pee in the shower. I prefer not to, but sometimes I just forget to go until I'm too wet to turn back. But I hurry up, b/c sometimes hubby will need to finish getting ready, or maybe want to join me.... how's that for TMI!

and studentsaltmom

"So all my point was was that the schools look at the courses you take and not just the grades."

And there are school districts and students too poor to offer or take AP courses. What then?

I have never peed in the shower. Are you serious that some people can't wait 5 mins? Or are these the folks who take 30 minute showers (don't get that myself)?

I have never peed in the shower. I have, however, peed standing up, even though I'm a woman. Gotta love the "toilets" in Northern Africa and even parts of Europe. "Place feet here" over a hole . . .

One thing I learned in the military - don't pee sideways on a hill as your boots get wet.

KLB SS MD, Next thing you'll be telling me is that you've never peed in the ocean either, right?

Father of 4,
Ocean is different than a pool or shower.

"One thing I learned in the military - don't pee sideways on a hill as your boots get wet."

Or in a bedpan.

I don't ask my mom for marriage advice. She is the kind of person who would hold a grudge against DH for any minor infraction. So, I only tell her positive things about him. I learned this lesson early on in our relationship. I still think she wishes I would have married someone else, even though DH is the best guy and the love of my life. So, I am careful never to say anything remotely negative about him to her.

As for your problem with messiness, hire a cleaning service. We have done that. We're both messy and don't like to clean. Problem solved.

And then a dirty dish in the sink, or a smelly pair of socks under the bed won't seem like much of a problem at all.

Posted by: Father of 4 | May 22, 2007 07:28 AM

Besides, you don't have to look at the mess like she does!

Let me guess, the next gift you will get your wife is a new bucket to match that mop you got her for Christmas!

KLB SS MD, as far as peeing and the ocean go, I heard that urine is a good firsthand treatment for a jellyfish sting...

Laura, that's great. My dad came to visit this past weekend from out of town and he took a train from the airport to my office. I took him to my office to show him around. It is a new job I got last summer.
He didn't even ask what the company name was, let alone what I do, what business we are in or anything like that. I wasn't surprised-it's not like I met him yesterday, but it is a little disappointing every time something like that happens.

From a profession standpoint, I need to refrain from comment on everyone's shower habits. But I am snickering here at my computer...

Laura, you may have a point there. Some people think people should never have loud arguments. I figured it was just natural for us, considering our six-month, pre-relationship friendship was often spent debating certain topics. I also thought it was in part because of our personality differences. I have never dated someone like him and I know for sure he's never been with someone like me. So it took some time for us to get used to each other, and after some temper flare-ups, we're now at a point where we can better understand each other. He has a harder time calming down, but I have a harder time communicating my thoughts in a way he can understand (my thought processes are convoluted and rambling, much like a maze, whereas his are straightforward like a math problem). However, we are both aware of our problems, and are making great progress at solving them. And the occasional loud debate keeps things interesting!

On another note, I just ate fresh strawberries and bananas smothered in chocolate sauce for lunch, while the rest of the department is at a barbecue wolfing down charred, ground-up cows. I'm so not jealous.

The Google adds are just spot on for today's blog:

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EWWW! I have not peed in a shower/bath/pool/ocean since I was about six!
I 'go' before I get in (to any body of water).

Well, at least now I KNOW I'm prissy.

Father of 4, Did you ever think the day would come when the celebrity with whom you'd be compared is Paris Hilton?

"On another note, I just ate fresh strawberries and bananas smothered in chocolate sauce for lunch, while the rest of the department is at a barbecue wolfing down charred, ground-up cows. I'm so not jealous."

Well, I'm exremely jealous. there's nothing like a good barbeque.

"She is the kind of person who would hold a grudge against DH for any minor infraction" LOL - I once had a huge fight with Mr xyz and went to Mom's house. I don't really remember what I said to her, but I distinctly remember her saying "Well, I hope you two make up because I really like Mr xyz" - so much for looking to Mom for sympathy :).

EWWW! I have not peed in a shower/bath/pool/ocean since I was about six!
I 'go' before I get in (to any body of water).

Well, at least now I KNOW I'm prissy.

Posted by: educmom | May 22, 2007 12:42 PM

Where do you think all the sewer water eventually winds up?

Father of 4, you're right about the two types of people. Everyone pees in the shower, myself included. I mean, what more reason do you need other than it saves the 4 gallons of water it takes to flush the toilet!

I complain about my husband to people and he complains about me to people. We complain about each other to people in front of each other. It's all in good fun. I guess that's because we talk about the serious problems with each other. For example:

In front of other people: "Why is it so hard for him to remember to do his laundry? I mean, he has actually run out of clean clothes!"

Only to each other: "I feel like you don't listen to me when I ask for you to do chores."

From reading these commemts, it seems like whether or not you confide in your parents has a lot to do with the type of people the parents are. I would not complain to my mom if she were a shallow, bitter woman who would use my complaints as ammo to bash my husband. She is a wonderful person and would never use what I say in confidence against me.

As for your problem with messiness, hire a cleaning service. We have done that. We're both messy and don't like to clean. Problem solved.

Posted by: Lilly | May 22, 2007 12:28 PM

I'm glad that solved the problem for you. I suspect you are both willing to live with the mess in between visits from teh cleaning service. I am not. HouseCLEANING is solved by hiring a cleaning service. Messiness, laziness and pack-rat-itis is not.

I have no interest in picking his dirty dishes up from the porch or the living room and transporting them to the dishwasher. I am not the sole designated loader or unloader of the dishwasher. I will not pick up all of his dirty laundry off the floor and strewn around the house and carry it to the laundry basket, then tote the laundry basket down to the laundry room. I never had a roommate expect me to pick up after her or him, and I had a number of roommates of various dispositions and cleanliness styles over the years. Why should my spouse?

Peeing in the shower is gross? Well, I always knew my hygeine standards were a bit different ...

I know this has been discussed before, but who decides if the problem is really that he is a slob or if the problem is that she is a controlling neat-freak?

I don't care if coats and sweaters are hung on the back of chairs, but I have a friend who thinks everything should be hung up or put away the second it comes off your body. Some people never make beds, others can't leave the room until the bed is made. My neat freak friend thinks a book or magazine should be put on the shelf as soon as you close it. She gets upset if her husband leaves it on the coffee table. I think her husband is quite neat and she thinks he is somewhat of a slob.

This is an area where people have different standards. You have to find a compromise that you can both live with.

CMAC

I do not do wall hanging stuff. Even after the hurricane, I did not put up the paintings (yes, we have real paintings), prints (Monet and Manet), tapestries, and other stuff. Some one else did it. Not me.

Posted by: Fred | May 22, 2007 10:42 AM

Fred - At least you have the prints and paintings - we are not even that far! There are a couple strategic mirrors and pictures of the kids but our living room is bare. Every time I print out a nice print my husband rolls his eyes.

There are a couple things that lead to fights in our house, hanging pictures (other that the living room of course), painting and Xmas lights. Late November usually has one or 2 very cranky days when the lights from the previous year are pulled out, tested, thrown away or hung and new ones are bought. It drives me crazy!

I'm glad that solved the problem for you. I suspect you are both willing to live with the mess in between visits from teh cleaning service. I am not. HouseCLEANING is solved by hiring a cleaning service. Messiness, laziness and pack-rat-itis is not.

I have no interest in picking his dirty dishes up from the porch or the living room and transporting them to the dishwasher. I am not the sole designated loader or unloader of the dishwasher. I will not pick up all of his dirty laundry off the floor and strewn around the house and carry it to the laundry basket, then tote the laundry basket down to the laundry room. I never had a roommate expect me to pick up after her or him, and I had a number of roommates of various dispositions and cleanliness styles over the years. Why should my spouse?

Posted by: | May 22, 2007 01:01 PM

You should get a divorce, I'm sure your husband would be much happier.

Meesh, I totally agree with you. What are family and friends for if you can't share with them what's important to you. Hopefully, the marriage is on top of the list and seeking advice or discussion on how to deal with issues and getting feedback is part of the improvement process.

I can't imagine that mentioning who did the taxes, dishes, mowing, sweeping, and/or scrubbing needs to be a closely garded secret in any family because "it's none of their business".

I get plenty of free advice from my friends, family, and of course, this blog. No need to hire a marriage counselor for us.

But I do caution about sharing personal marital information to neighbors

Come to think of it, I can't remember the last time I asked my mother for advice on anything! I love my mother, but tempermentally we are very, very different. The fact that we have lived in different states for over thirty years doesn't lend itself to our being confidantes, either. No ... When I need advice on life issues, I definitely turn to friends!

Murphy

"Come to think of it, I can't remember the last time I asked my mother for advice on anything! "

Same here and with a lot of people I know. Even less people ask their FATHERS for advice.

You should get a divorce, I'm sure your husband would be much happier.

Posted by: | May 22, 2007 01:07 PM

1:07, I can't imagine what would make you think you are qualified to comment on other's marital happiness, or recommend divorce to resolve minor marital differences. Maybe if you got laid more often, your comments would be less nasty.

anon at 12:54:
well, I don't swim in my toilet, if you catch my drift...and I have a well & septic, so I know exactly where my waste ends up.

I think I'm going to get that chemical for the pool that changes color if someone pees in it (for my pool, not the ocean).

I'm starting to feel like Felix Ungar!

"You should get a divorce, I'm sure your husband would be much happier"

Thank you for the advice, Hall Monitor.

Well, urine is basicly sterile. Much more so than if someone spits or snots in your pool. But I still think it's gross, too.

Well, urine is basicly sterile. Much more so than if someone spits or snots in your pool. But I still think it's gross, too.

The excrement topic has j