Interesting topic. I've seen much more 50/50 arrangements. Takes a lot more from the parents (they can't move, etc. etc.), but the kids seem happier. But I haven't seen many new divorces lately. 10 years ago, yes, but not too many lately...In fact, I can't think of a new divorce in my friends in the last 6 years or so...Strange to think of that

Second, dammit!

It does seem like divorce is getting rarer. None of my good friends have divorced yet and I am only a year away from 40. The only divorces I know of in Washington in my age group (give or take 5 years) involve someone cheating. It just doesnt seem to be worth it to divorce any more. You learn to get along and adjust to life's differences. In most cases, unless you have a family trust, everyone's lives get harder financially and even if you do have a trust fund your life still gets harder logistically. There are just better ways to deal. I know a lot of couples who are in therapy and working on their marriages. That seems to be more the norm these days.

I don't think that I will be around today!

Most of my friends have not been married long enough to get divorced. But my FIL divorced for a second time a few years back. He has two younger children (12 and 13) and they share a 50/50 arrangement. I do think there are pros and cons. Some of this joint custody thing seems like a way to ditch child support. But the positives do seem to be there. Kids still seem to have a lasting and in depth relationship with both parents. In fact, they have a stronger bond with their dad now because every other week their dad is the care giver. A role he did not assume when he was married. The flip side is logistics is more tricky and their mother is definitely at an economic disadvantage. She is currently engaged, so her economic hardship did not seem to last too long but if she had stayed single it would have been harder for her. The other down side is when the kids get into HS, I am not sure they want to go from house to house because their parents live in different school districts and neighborhoods. Eventhough they will attend one school, half the time they would be separated from their peers. Also since the parents only see the kids half the time, all their free time is dominated by family activities. Eventually the kids will want a social life of their own. Good and bad. Balancing is hard but there are definite positives. Kind of nice, that divorce is becoming more rare.

My husband and I both have children (three boys) from earlier marriages and a little girl of our own. The boys live with us half of the time. After the divorce, I found very hard to be apart from my son half of the week (he was 3 ½ years old at the time), though he had (has) a very good relationship with his dad. Nowadays he's 10 and I still miss him a lot the days he's away, but it's easier to compensate over the phone. All in all, I'm convinced it was for the best: his father has also remarried and given him two younger siblings and I bet he would feel very left behind if we was seeing his dad only every other weekend, instead of truly being a part of the new family.
Of course it's not always easy to manage things, even if we're lucky enough to live in the same town and not very far apart (all the three families, I mean, mine, my ex-husband's and my husband's ex-wife's). There are tensions and irritations. But as time goes by, it gets easier, as everyone realises the benefits of politeness and a sensible degree of flexibility. Plus, the kids all get along wonderfully and are completely comfortable with the fact that they have two homes, two sets of clothes, two bedrooms, etc. Its their world, or the world as they know it. The logistics (which people keep asking about) is not at all complicated (even if my youngest stepson is in a wheelchair).
Just one personal thought I would like to share: I truly believe that 50/50 is the best option for the child when staying married is no longer an option for the parents. But it does takes a little bit of your child away from you, so from an egocentric point of view, sure it is a sacrifice you make. You feel a gap, regardless how much you rationalise it. I know my longing for another baby would probably not exist if I had both my son and daughter always close to me.

Divorce sucks. I survived one after a 20 year marriage; we entered a rough marriage patch where the now ex and I poorly handled our marriage problems. Enter younger attentive women (yes, more than one) into the picture and yep - you end up with divorce. The kids were approximately 13 and 15 when this all started to happen... they were scared at the thought of Mom and Dad getting divorce (separation was to get our acts together - this does not work!).. then they saw mom standing for the values she believed were necessary for a good marriage (she looked like a real bad person) and Dad being led away by someone new who didn't have as many expectations and wanted to have more of his babies. (Never mind some of the marriage problems were over his lack of attention to the two kids he already had).

I fought to save the marriage to the very end; but ex was determined to move on with new woman who respected and loved him. I allowed my ex full rights to my house even after the divorce AND his remarriage so that he could visit with his kids. Once the youngest received his drivers license and car; the ex no longer had reason to come to my house. Of course, our "relationship" declined more over this time period so this was a good thing. Both kids could drive to his house whenever they wanted; but due to their age, there was no set child visitation. I would never deny the kids their dad; they don't realize how much our marriage problems were over my advocation for my kids and their relationship with their dad.

The kids now have a new baby half-brother. They spent Mother's Day morning with the woman who married their dad (I hate to call her step-mother - she was still in high school while I was having his children and supporting him thru college).

The best thing if you are in a divorce is to always take "the high road". It is very hard; sometimes you want your kids to know the REAL truth and not what the other spouse is telling them. Anytime I fell off the "high road" - I really did end up regretting it.

Also, a divorce is a defining time when you give up 100% time with your kids and you have to share them with your ex and possibly another person.. and that hurts more than anything because I would have never dreamed that when I had kids. Families are important and I never wanted my kids to live in a broken home.

We have friends who divorced and maintained their family house and jointly rented an apartment-50/50 custody. Each parent left the house and stayed in the apartment when it wasn't their turn with the kids so the kids didn't have to lug their stuff around-they agreed the adults should be inconvenienced, not the kids. They often had dinner together at the house. I thought that was a fantastic way to manage custody especially because the divorce was a little nasty. But they both agreed that this was the best arrangement for the kids.

My parents divorced when I was eight. Now, as an adult, I know they had an "ugly divore," but we kids would have never known. They really did it the right way. NEVER did one say a bad word about the other (and they had plenty of chances).

Because of this we never blamed one parent or the other we just always thought "it didn't work out."

If you talk negatively about your ex, you are seriously doing a disservice to your kids. Kids are not mentally equipped to handle adult problems. Do not make them.

Had a close call or two the first couple years but I think we've managed to make it through a lot. The military definitely put a strain on things, even if you are not deployed...
I am not a big fan of people who file for divorce simply for convenience. I understand if there are certain circumstances like abuse, drugs, etc. but breaking your word of "till death do us part" is not something that should be done lightly.
That said, my parents split when I was 2 for a VERY good reason. Unfortunately, my dad never provided any child-support, and the gov't never went after him despite knowing where he was... It'd be nice to get 16 years of back-pay (with interest!), but I don't think that's possible, much less likely (though I really could use the money).

I'm interested to hear about all the 50/50 cases out there! I don't know anyone else besides me with a 50/50 custody arrangement so it's interesting to hear about it working out in the long run, when the kids are older etc.

One thing I've tried hard to correct is (as another poster pointed out) the tendency to make "your week" into a really mom-centered or family-centered week. Kids should have their own interests and friends and it's up to the parents to support that and not ask them to stay home all the time so the parent can get more time with them. So I do an activity or two a week but also try really hard to set up play dates and just friend time even though their friends are all near their school 30 mins away. Hopefully this will also lessen the impact in the high school years - after all, as a private school kids, my friends were routinely 30-60 minutes away and I managed to see them all the time.

I'm interested to hear about all the 50/50 cases out there! I don't know anyone else besides me with a 50/50 custody arrangement so it's interesting to hear about it working out in the long run, when the kids are older etc.

One thing I've tried hard to correct is (as another poster pointed out) the tendency to make "your week" into a really mom-centered or family-centered week. Kids should have their own interests and friends and it's up to the parents to support that and not ask them to stay home all the time so the parent can get more time with them. So I do an activity or two a week but also try really hard to set up play dates and just friend time even though their friends are all near their school 30 mins away. Hopefully this will also lessen the impact in the high school years - after all, as a private school kids, my friends were routinely 30-60 minutes away and I managed to see them all the time.

I was the product of one of the old-fashioned divorces -- my dad left, saw me periodically. But he followed his job around (the old-fashioned, transfers every 2 or 3 years kind of job). When he was just one state over, I'd take the bus to see him every other weekend or so. But when he moved away, my visits were mostly limited to a month or two in the summer. It was hard to adjust -- I never really felt like part of that family, because it just wasn't frequent enough to be normal.

When I had kids, it really hit for the first time that if something ever happened to our marriage, I had an obligation to them to try to keep us all nearby. That was a tough realization, because at the time, we were 1600 miles away from my job and family, in a place I had no desire to live. But I realized I couldn't just run home to mommy -- I would have needed to stay put and give it my best shot at letting them maintain a "normal" relationship with both of us. (Now I am back home -- and HE may be the one wanting to run away! And of course, I can't control his actions).

If something did happen, I can't see myself asking for sole custody, or messing with his time with them, or anything like that. And since we both have fairly comparable jobs, I can't see much reason for child support. Biggest issue would be whether I could maintain the house on one income, which I would like to do to provide my kids some stability (plus 1 block from my mom = even more important if everything else shot to hell). But that's my issue, not his -- it wouldn't be fair even to ask him to contribute to that.

Of course, I haven't experienced the degree of anger and hurt that is involved in all of the bad stuff that leads up to divorce, so I can't say for sure how I would react. But as long as he doesn't go over into mental illness or abuse or something similar, I think having a real dad in their daily lives would be incredibly important to them. And I hope I wouldn't lose sight of that.

Re: the military parents who lost permanent custody of their children. You say this was unfair and unbalanced. Unfair and unbalanced for who? For the parent who lost custody? I can see how this parent might see the situation as unfair. But what about for the child(ren) involved? Seems to me that a loving parent would want his or her kids to be in as stable an environment as possible without having to worry about the next deployment.

Marriage is difficult- years fly away and people change. To divorce someone over an affair of the heart/body, to divorce because you feel that person has become unattractive and not keeping up with you- to divorce over boredom in the bedroom..... All of these situations have a point and the point is - try to work at it, these excuses are built around human nature- time and age. They are not reasons for divorce and in the end of your life, when your kids will be complaining because they have to go to Moms house and then Dads house for holiday/family functions, when your grandchildren ask you 20 years later- Why did you and grandma divorce? What will your reply say about yourself? Time heals-all things pass and if you can work on your marriage and yes it is work- all things in life that provide comfort, support and productivity require work that's how you achieve success then at the end your life you will be sitting with someone who is a true friend and partner with your family around you acknowledging your great achievements. The marriage vows state - in sickness and health till death do you part- there should be another line in the good times and bad. I am sure there will be many replies to this posting- I have witnessed divorce in my family- my husband grew up with parents divorcing then repeating the same mistakes 2-3 times again, most of his family Aunts, Uncles, and now his siblings are repeating the same action that his parents took. It is sad and somewhat pathetic to watch. We both know how important it is to try and make it work and there are days when it would be so great to walk out that door and say goodbye but we are blessed in the sense that we have learned a thing or two and now witness this cycle of divorce and want no part of it.

While never having been divorced myself, in the last few years I've seen my brother, wife's brother, and two good friends divorce, all with kids. The reasons for the divorces were different, but in all cases the big issue over kids and custody popped up when one of the spouses remarried.

In my brother's case, his ex-wife remarried; her new husband wanted nothing to do with these two girls that weren't his, and my brother's been a single father to two daughters (one now 13, the other 20) for about four years. He has full custody (well, my oldest niece is an adult so nobody has "custody" but she lives with him while going to college); they visit their mother on weekends and during the summer.

In BIL's case, his ex-wife also remarried. None of the kids gets along with the stepfather and he doesn't think highly of them, either. The oldest son is now 19; he lives with his father when not at college. The two girls are 17 and 15; they spend most of their time with their father and stay at mom/stepfather's house only when it's more convenient for school/activities. The youngest son is 10; he's at his father (my BIL's) house almost all the time. BIL doesn't have full custody, but he may as well.

A good friend of mine officially has a 50/50 custody arrangement, but now that his ex-wife has remarried he finds he has the kids about 75% of the time. (Ex-wife needs time to "bond" with her new husband and prefers the kids to stay with their dad.)

This is why I never really found much use for this column. Its not family-friendly. Its all about the career woman putting job and self ahead of family and has always shown the feeblest understanding of what love and marriage really requires. That Leslie is divorcing in the end thus is no surprise at all.

Where do you people live that you think divorce is more rare?? The rate of divorce for first marriages has changed little in the past 20 or so years (it still hovers around 50%).
Go to an al-anon meeting (or, I'm guessing, AA meeting) if you think people aren't getting divorced anymore.

Two of my closest friends have divorced in the past three years, and I'm in the middle of an ugly one. The shortest of these marriages lasted 16 years.

Neither of my friends' divorces were the result of infidelity or addiction. One has a son in high school and a daughter in college; when she moved out, her son stayed at home, but he can see her whenever he wants. It's a relatively amicable separation.

The other friend had, at the time of the separation, a daughter in high school, a mentally handicapped daughter in middle school, and a daughter in elementary school. Fortunately for her, she comes from money, and she has landed squarely on her feet financially. Her ex was a lousy father when they were married, and he didn't improve once they split (he actually contributed to the need for his middle daughter's stay in an institution, because he refused to follow the program put in place by her therapist for contact and behavior modification).

In my case, my sons can see STBX whenever it doesn't interfere with work, school, or other obligations. They generally choose not to contact him, and he doesn't initiate contact very often; they resent the h*** out of him because of the alcohol, and he's probably embarrassed in his sober moments. I have encouraged them to attend al-anon or alateen, but so far they have not gone.

It's incredibly stressful, because they are legally adults (#2 just turned 18), and they are savvy enough to know exactly what's going on. They worry about me, and they want to protect me, and I worry about them, and want to protect them.

And, parents are fooling themselves if they think that joint custody/split living arrangements benefit the kids. I have taught a number of students over the years who live with this arrangement, and it's not all that beneficial for the child. We only see the confusion and disorganization as it relates to school. For example, you have NO IDEA how many times teachers in our school have assigned work when dad had the child, which was due when mom had the child, and the reason we are given when we send home a note about the missing assignment(s) is because dad didn't tell mom about the work, or vice versa. And don't even get me started on scheduling conferences, or choosing field trip chaperones! The prevailing opinion in the faculty room is that some of these parents are delusional, and some are selfish.

Children should feel stable, comfortable, and at ease; they shouldn't be confused. The arrangements that seem to work best, at least with the families we see, involve sole custody, with frequent visitation (as in 2 nights a week and at least one night/day each weekend) by the non-custodial parent.

Observer...Leslie didn't say she and her husband are getting divorced. So then are you speaking ill of the divorced troops who are deployed and at war on our behalf? You need to fall back, and fast.

To Home:

My ex-husband confessed after 7 years of marriage that he was gay. Not quite sure how time and hard work were going to heal that...

"My ex-husband confessed after 7 years of marriage that he was gay."

Obviously he was not gay. He just fanticized about having sexually perverted adulterous affairs with other men. Not a good reason to get divorced.

Home,
I'll send STBX over to you.
YOU can buy the beer, the Jack Daniel's, the vodka, the tequila...
YOU can clean up the vomit on the living room rug, the urine in the laundry hamper, the empties on the front porch...
YOU can pay the attorney (the rate doubles with each DWI), and the auto insurance (ditto for every tree you hit 'while avoiding a deer')...
YOU can check your bank balance online every morning, so you can be sure that the $1000 you put in yesterday is still there...
YOU can explain to your children why Dad was golfing instead of attending the concert in which you had a solo, or why your mom's dad took you to the football team father-son breakfast because your dad had Ravens tickets (for a game that starts 3 hours after the breakfast ends -- but TAILGATING starts at 8 am)...

Even my dad, the strictest Catholic I know (and I worked for a nun in my previous school!), is supporting me in my decision to divorce this man.

Yeah, a nerve has been struck...

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

We have one of those 50/50 arrangements and it seems to work well. The fact that my ex & I live walking distance apart and in the same school districts help. My daughter has seemed to adjust. One thing is that the year before my ex & I split she was accident prone, multiple broken bones (though the adults with her were different each time, my ex, me, the sitter, her coach). When we first split she was very stressed, but now the accident proneness has stopped and she is a lot less stressed. Both my ex and I agree that the accident proneness was her picking up on the tension between us.

As for balance in a way it helps. On nights when my daughter is at her dad's, those are the nights I can work late and I schedule my time that way as much as possible. On weekends when I don't have her are when I schedule my social life. I still miss her those days, but it allows me to focus on her and her activities more when she is there.

As for the child's social life - they'll insist. When the party invitation comes or the friends are going to movies they'll ask and as a parent saying no so she can stay home and watch TV with me sounds unfair. It is realizing as a parent you will have to let your child grow away from you. It is harder because you already see them less, but unlike the days when you would have a non-custodial parent who would only see a child a few days a month it isn't as wrenching because you have more opportunities to see them. I also remind myself how in high school it sometimes felt like days would go by and I only maybe had a chance to say hello to my father, between his work and my work, extra circcular activities and social life. So living full time with a teenager doesn't guarantee a lot of face time either

The divorce rate has declined slightly, but it's still over 40% of all marriages. What's more, the figure is skewed by the increasing number of couples who live together without marrying and then part -- in other words, relationships end that way as well.

C.W. urges people to take the high road when divorcing. Hard as that can be, eventually you're happier with yourself.

Mine was not an amicable or even civil divorce. Despite joint custody language in separation and divorce papers, no court's going to compel a teenager to spend time with the parent who left. (Not just my opinion, but that of a NoVa family court judge.) Context: two of my kids were in high school; one out of college and on her own.

The best you can do if you're the parent who leaves, I think, is to stay as present as you can (phone, email, offers of visits/meeting even when you've repeatedly been turned down or ignored) while remembering that the child's working through his own feelings. Further, the child has to deal with the reactions/feelings of the parent he's living with.

Sometimes, as a therapist suggested to me, there are no good choices; you try and find the best possible choice, and move forward with that.

You can end up feeling sorry for yourself, feeling angry that you have to be the adult. Often, that's a hint that you may not be quite as adult as you imagine; the rest of the time, it's a truism: you are an adult. Acknowledge your feelings to yourself, but remember you don't always need to act on them.

Then gently scan your brother man
Still gentler sister woman
Tho' they may go a-kennin' wrang
To step aside is human --
One point must still be greatly dark:
The moving Why they do it
And just as lamely can ye mark
How far perhaps they rue it.

May parents divorced when I was in college and I think they should have done it sooner. They were just too different and now they have met and married more compatible spouses. I agree with educmom that the 50/50 just doesn't sound like a great way to go for children/ I know kids are resiliant and they will probably be fine, but having one parent who is a constant source of love and another who is an extra dollop of love and support (i.e. visitation and phone calls, etc.)just seems like a more comforting situation than to have the kids shuttled back and forth every week.

I only know one couple who has gotten divorced-- perhaps because people in my crowd get married so late in life, there is less risk of the "Growing apart" that happens when you marry at a younger age. Plus they haven't been married long enough-- and don't have the time or energy to deal with it, as Leslie pointed out! We are in our 30s and 40s. I hope marriages last, but I know that when they don't, it can be best to just let it go.

When they returned to civilian life, they lost custody permanently because of court decisions that determined it was in the best interest of their children to remain with parent who had not been forced by military obligations to relinquish care. Nothing fair or balanced there.

This statement needs a little clarification, Leslie. You make it sound like EVERY solider has to give up custody.

"forced by military obligations to relinquish care"???

Way to say you are against the war. I thought this blog was about balance, not about political agenda.

"in 1999, his house organ the National Liberty Journal warned parents that the Tinky Winky TV character was secretly gay and morally dangerous; in 2001, he blamed the September 11 terrorist attack on "pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America."

What does STBX mean?

Home,

Divorces happen for many reasons; some are legitimate. I'm all in favor of trying work through problems while you can, but sometimes they can't be solved.

In the case of the divorces I mentioned in my earlier post:

- my brother and his now-ex wife grew apart. They both cheated. (They still argue about who cheated first; well, they still argue about a lot of stuff.) Once they each found out about it, they played a game of "you hurt me so I'll hurt you back worse". Could they have worked through it? Yeah, probably; they'll admit privately that they were stupid, but once they got started there was no turning back.

- BIL is an easy-going guy who was satisfied with his lot in life. He had a stable job that didn't pay a lot, but it paid enough and he was happy. He had the flexibility to ride in bicycle races, spend time at his kids' games, etc. That's not what his wife wanted out of life. She wanted "the good life" - a place at the beach, travel anywhere/anytime, lots of luxuries. She finally realized after 17 years of marriage that she wasn't going to change him, so she dumped him while she was still young enough and "hot enough" to find another husband who'd provide the lifestyle she wanted. A divorce, a boob job, a couple of body piercings and tatoos, and voila - she found the younger, richer man she wanted. They fly off to Europe or the ski slopes on a whim; she's much happier (and he's got the kids most of the time, so he's happier too).

- Friend #1 was a controlling jerk. Seriously, I've known this guy for 20 years, and his wife is much better off without him. He controlled all the money; she had one credit card and a monthly allowance. He made all the decisions; he'd go through her purse every so often just to make sure there was nothing going on he didn't know about. He's still shocked that she left him. DW and I keep trying to explain that you can't treat somebody like that; maybe someday he'll understand. (The good thing is that he's not dating yet. He's still too "devastated". This time, I'll have to warn whoever he dates what it's going to be like.)

- Friend #2's wife was a heavy abuser of narcotics. Don't know what got her started on it; maybe he made her miserable or something. I just know that she was big into pills, and it got untenable for him and the kids.

There are all different reasons; some legit some not. It's wrong to assert that everyone should just work out their differences and never divorce.

my fil had an affair when my husband was 4 years old & his parents divorced over it. both of my husband's parents remarried & all 4 of them would take vacations together with the children. as to what my fil would say if asked why he divorced my mil; he answers the question honestly "i made a stupid mistake and had an affair." one of the things i admire about my fil is that even after 40 years he does not gloss over the truth.

"I have taught a number of students over the years who live with this arrangement, and it's not all that beneficial for the child. We only see the confusion and disorganization as it relates to school. For example, you have NO IDEA how many times teachers in our school have assigned work when dad had the child, which was due when mom had the child, and the reason we are given when we send home a note about the missing assignment(s) is because dad didn't tell mom about the work, or vice versa"

Wait isn't my child responsible for doing their assignments? Are you saying at your school you assume the parents are responsible making sure homework is done and if it is not the parents not the child is responsible? That you don't trust the kids to tell the parents that they have homework? We have never had this problem (maybe because my daughter was in 5th grade when we split and old enough to know when the teacher said something was due she was responsible for telling both of us). Also, my ex and I do talk about school and other activities regularly. Actually my daughter got her laptop specifically for this reason - she had to start a project/paper at one house and need to finish it at another.

I've often been under the impression that the increased divorce rate is due to a increased value placed on marriage, or at least a kind of idolization of marriage. Speaking as someone still in the under 30 crowd, I've seen many divorces come quite quickly after marriage among my peers. In most cases, this is due to a phenomenon of "rushing to marraige" rather than being unfaithful, or finances. It is also, fortunately, the exception rather than the rule that the couples I am thinking of have children.

As to 50/50 custody, I could definately see how it could work well. Though I must admit that the adults who I know who were children when their parents got divorced and were part of a 50/50 custody deal all, eventually, ended up living with their mothers by the time they were in high school.

More people are divorcing because they are living longer, and as many of you posted before on this blog, children are living with us for maybe 20 years -- a quarter of our lives (optimistically). We have to think about our personal fulfilment, not just about perpetuation of our genes. My MIL divorced her husband 30 years ago. He died 20 years ago, when she was 60. Her new husband is still around, and pretty active. Do you think it would be better for HER to stay a lonely widow for the past 20 years, not even mentioning stay in a troubled marriage? Her kids did not like the divorce back then, but they feel about it very differently now, when their mother's family is self-supporting.

My parents did not divorce, but it would have been better if they did. I always knew that my late mother stiffled my father's plans and ideas. He would have been better off on his own, and we would have had better relationships. As it was, my father's bitterness about my mother influencing his decisions translated into negative feeling about his kids.

I was divorced several years ago after I found my husband having an affair with a co-worker. The divorce was very nasty and he continues to be as difficult as possible. We have joint custody with a 50/50 schedule (5/2/2). It is awful for me as well as the children. They hate going back and forth on school days and would prefer to be in one place during the week. Our divorce agreement calls for us to see a parent coordinator when there are parenting issues we cannot agree upon. Needless to say there are many, including where the kids should go to school, what sports they should play, how frequently they should be allowed to speak to their mom (for a year and a half he would not allow the children to call me while they were in his care), summer and vacation schedules, etc. He does not communicate with me about anything, even had my daughter's teeth pulled without telling me. He refuses to see the parent coordinator. So, we just continue with the status quo because I cannot afford the retainer for a lawyer. He knows this and uses it to his advantage. My kids are suffering and so am I.

I believe some divorces work when both parents can behave like adults and work together as co-parents. Clearly, not the case with my situation.

We're a former military family- I've seen countless divorces and I'm only 31 years old.

In all cases- the wives take the kids and move back home to their parents- where ever that may be: Germany, England, Pennsylvania, South Carolina. AKA, thousands of miles away from the dads.

I think military divorce has to, hands down, be the most difficult for kids. The wives have no financial choice but to move back in with her parents- they are obviously not going to move every few years with the ex husbands (the stress of moves is a big marriage issue) and the military has absolutely NO support of any kind set up for civilian wives. NONE. They won't even pay to move the kid's things to a new house! (Unless the service member gives up money for his next move)

I could write a book about this, but military divorce is extremely hard. The kids will most likely rarely see their dad (or never in some cases)Money is extremely tight.

I also read that Outlook article and it is so unbelievably sad to see these parents out defending this country to come back to their kids being gone. There is a reason they got custody in the first place!

Foamgnome,

STBX = soon-to-be-ex
LBS = left-behind spouse (usually indicates someone had a new "friend" lined up or already in a new bed)
WS = wandering spouse (partner of LBS)

dcdivorcee: just a suggestion, and you may have already done this - legal aid may be able to help, or give you some direction in the matter.

So, my divorce is about 10 years old. We've done 50/50 from the beginning, except for 1 year when my ex was out of the country. We never said anything bad about the other to our daughter. She's 16 now. Her dad and I talk almost every day. He and my live-in get along well, and I really like his new girlfriend.

We now do 1 week at each house. We did do 2 weeks at each house for a period of time. The biggest thing to do is to listen to your child, see what they need, and put your own wishes second. My daughter has all 4 of us at events, and we all help each other out.

I took her to a child therapist at one point to find out what she wanted, without her trying to please us. I also checked in at school with her teachers and guidance folks. They didn't know her parents were divorced - as they said "She doesn't present as a child of divorce". That's the best!

We have had quite a few people tell us we should write a book on how to be divorced. I'll sum it up from my family's perspective. Divorce is meaningless - you're still part of the family. What that means is that my ex is always my daugthers dad, so part of my family. I've always treated him like family.

So, we're 10 years into this experiment. The result? Our daughter is doing very well, she has both parents very involved in all parts of her life. She's thriving. We kept communication open, and put ourselves second (most of the time, anyway).

I will say that the year I had her to myself (she was 11 then), probably set us up for life. We bonded like I couldn't have otherwise - I think. We ride horses together, we both just signed up for a race (Marine Corps Marathon for her, Marine Corps 10k for me) without knowing the other did. Things like that. I adore my daugther, and am very proud of how she turned out.

I usually don't post here, but this is a near and dear topic for me.

"My ex-husband confessed after 7 years of marriage that he was gay."

Obviously he was not gay. He just fanticized about having sexually perverted adulterous affairs with other men. Not a good reason to get divorced.

Posted by: | May 16, 2007 09:03 AM

Sounds like he didn't want to be married though.

It takes two people to get married, it only takes one person to file for a divorce.

It's not slavery, you CAN get out of it.

I'm sorry for Leslie & her friends. Even if it proves to be the right thing to do (for whatever reasons), it's hard to witness and be supportive/fair. Extra dollops of good feelings towards the kids.

I appreciate all comments- I did not state in my post that you should stay - and work on it due to alcoholism- drug addiction
I referenced the "human nature" attributes of marriage that can bring down a household.
I stand by my comment.
To air you personal viewpoint educmom so dramatically and with such anger does not encourage a healthy debate or help to give insight into any opinion. You have posted an insight that many who know you or perhaps your children will now see and wonder why expose such a personal viewpoint. Given your information - then yes leaving such a man would benefit you and your family. My comment put forth was to say Marriage is work and if both parties are healthy- non violent- then work at your marriage - time changes everything and many time improves communication between partners.
This is not a blog to post "who he/she did" this is blog to gain insight and perhaps a better sense of what a marriage can be and how a even though divorce has taken place a family can remain as one.
I never understand why posting in such intimate details would better prove a point or sustains the conversation. I posted my comment from my experience and hard work put forth in may marriage.

I, like some of the other posters, am really happy to see how many 50/50 custody arrangements exist. I am dating a man with young twin boys who shares custody 50/50 with their mom. We dated for a long time before I was even introduced into the boys' lives. I have come on the scene very gradually and began spending the night in a guest room when the boys started asking me to sleep over (that's still where I sleep when they are there). We have worked with a child psychologist to help us plot our path in the most healthy way for them. We are planning on getting married and having more children, and all signs indicate the boys will be thrilled. The kids are very young, which I think has helped them adjust to the split time with parents better than older kids might. No question, it is hard on them sometimes to move back and forth, but I believe strongly that both their mom and dad have become better and more involved parents because of the arrangement. Their dad has a very demanding job but has found a way to make it work -- he doesn't use a carpool for school drop-offs and pick-ups, he spends the afternoons with them on his days with them, and he has learned to cook (admittedly he is no Michel Richard). He loves it, and they seem to love having so much Daddy time. The flip side is that he has to spend late nights after they go to sleep catching up on work, and we both work late and squeeze in all our travel on the nights we don't have the boys so that we can compensate. But in that way, we've managed to find balance. We're still working on my relationship with their mom, and to be honest, his relationship with her, but I have learned that I can only control my own behavior, and so far no one has resorted to saying nasty things in front of the children. I promote her relationship with the boys as much as I can - I help them pick flowers for her, remind them to go into her room with big hugs on Mother's Day, etc.

My parents have been married 40 years and still go out on dates and hold hands. I have four siblings who are all happily married to their first spouses. Divorce was sort of a bad word in our house, so I never expected it to touch my life so closely. But I will say the experience has made me less far judgmental. No one ever knows what is going on in someone else's house or bedroom. Sometimes there is a great deal of pain and emotional abuse hidden in a marriage that looks picture perfect to outsiders. My only hope is that people treat this topic with some respect and recognize that they can't sit in judgment on others for these choices.

Thanks for all the ideas and comments - it is great to hear what other people are finding that works and doesn't work for kids and themselves in these arrangements.

So, tell about how great it was for your marriage to have an affair. A real "bonding" moment for you?

My ex and I have had a 50/50 arrangement since our separation 10 years ago. We make it work, and I believe for our children it is the best arrangement. When my kids are with me, I focus on family activities. Yes, they do have social lives of their own, and extracurricular activity schedules that do not perfectly align with one or the other of our schedules. So my ex and I work together to try to make supporting the kids' e/c lives fairly distributed. It takes lots and lots of negotiations. Do we argue? Sometimes. But so do married couples, and we probably argue a lot less since we try to keep "our" issues separate. Our kids sometimes prefer spending time with one parent over the other. We try to make small and temporary adjustments (60/40 for six months, and then back to 50/50 or 40/60).

Dcdivorcee & educmom have brought up one of the main issues with 50/50 custody - the parents must be willing to communicate and behave like reasonable adults.

Any parent curious to know more about how kids are affected by divorce is invited to read Elizabeth Marquardt's book "Between Two Worlds."

http://www.betweentwoworlds.org/

This is a great book. Carefully researched and beautifully written. Highly recommended for both divorcing parents and adult children of divorce.

My husband and his first wife divorced while he was on a year-long cruise with the Navy. His ex-wife sent him a letter saying she wanted out of the marriage, and what's more, she didn't want custody of their child.

My stepson went to live with my husband's parents until my husband could get back to the U.S. But here's where it got ugly--the military is not kind or understanding or flexible to single parents. They would not consider reassigning my husband to shore duty to avoid long periods where he'd be out of the country and unable to care for his son. They suggested that my husband place his son in foster care so that he could continue his service with the Navy. This was their final (and only) offer. My husband appealed to his congressman for help, who eventually worked out an early discharge from the Navy.

I wonder if the Navy would have been more flexible for a single mother?

I have wondered recently why my parents didn't get divorced sooner. My mom was clearly not happy, but I guess the idea back then was to stay together 'for the children.'. What horrible advice, but today that isn't the way (not to mean you shouldn't try to work it out, but when everyone is miserable, at some point you need to throw in the towel). I will say that it is much more horrible for parents to split after the kids have had a 'stable' home for so many yrs-ie, you thought they might make it, but they couldn't.
Dh says to me all the time that he couldn't afford to divorce me. We've only been together 7 yrs but I couldn't imagine much that would make me want to split.
I worry way more about him dying than about divorce for any reason.
Educmom: my parents never knew anything about my assignments from school even in elementary. Why isn't it the *kids* responsibility-what does it even have to do with the parents?
Our close friends just got divorced and they do the splitting of weeks-it seems to be working for them even though they don't like each other very much anymore.

One other thing-tho-, my parents split when I was in college, both sisters were on their own but I was still being supported. When I got a job out of college (finally-graduated during a recession) dad was quick to tell me that I should move out of mom's apt. Not to mention I could hardly afford to just get to work and clothe myself, let alone have an apt to pay for- my sister each lived home for 2yrs after college ( and the job only lasteda few months). I thought this was horrible, but my dad wanted us to have nothing to do with mom. Mom, having grown up without a dad wanted to make sure we had a relationship with him.
The weird thing is, once mom passed away, he talks about her as if they were never separated (yes, ever have a discussion with your dad less than 2 wks after your mom has died about him suing your stepfather cause he wants the money? Much fun). It is weird, because I started dating dh after mom was gone and he thinks it is so weird when my dad talks about my mom and how it seems as if nothing ever happened (he talks so lovingly about her). In his mind it is possible that that is how he remembers it-that they weren't divorced (actually separated) at all.

Well, my sister was married to a drunk, womanizer for almost 15 years. He did and cared little for my nephew and took him out to his girl friend's house one night and drove home drunk with him. The best thing my sister ever did was divorce him. I wish she would have done it sooner, if she had my nephew may not have been messed up like he is.

I have to say that educmom has valid points some marriages are not worth saving.

PD, thx for the suggestion. I make too much for legal aid and not enough to pay a retainer. I know many middle class single mothers in the same position. We cannot qualify for aid but don't make enough to save for a retainer. It is a terrible catch 22. Meanwhile, the exes with plenty of money get away with bad behavior and the children suffer.

I'd love to hear if there are any other moms in a similar situation. I'd also like to hear comments on this 5-2-2- schedule. For those not familiar, kids are with one parent every Mon/Tue and with the second parent every Wed/Thu. Parents then switch every other weekend. So for the weekends the child is with mom or dad for 5 days at a time.

Among my circle there have been many divorces--for a while I knew more divorced couples than married--but they were all "starter marriages", begun and ended in the early twenties, with no kids in the mix. These divorces occurred for some very good reasons (addiction, abuse, serial adultery) and some avoidable reasons (incompatibilities that could have been discovered before marriage with a bit of honesty & serious conversation).

Now, many of those divorced people are remarrying & having kids, and these second marriages look a lot stronger than the first. While I obviously think divorce is to be avoided if possible, I am glad my friends got theirs out of the way before having kids. (And I only avoided divorce myself because in my paradigm it's fine to live together before marriage, which I did, and it didn't work out... some of my friends felt pressure to marry which I didn't feel.)

I would like to reiterate that the HIGH ROAD is the the way to go. I did slip off the HIGH ROAD too many times and it has really damaged whatever relationship I had with my ex. He considers the kids almost adults and doesn't feel the need to discuss issues related to the kids.

It was hard though considering that although I did some stupid things to contribue to the final demise of my marriage; I did not leave my husband for another person which caused the ultimate divorce. (they were suppose to be friends, but fell in love).

Of course I was going to be angry and hurt beyond any level I could ever comprehend. I can justify why I fell off the HIGH ROAD; but it still wasn't right.

My sister is dealing with an alcoholic husband right now. But their kids love him dearly and as a result she endures things that most of us would never tolerate. It is hard to stand by your spouse when they are totally irresponsible in their actions towards the welfare of the family and their spouses.

But the HIGH ROAD is absolutely the right thing and that is the #1 advise I'd give anyone involved in a divorce; no matter how ugly it gets.

dcdivorcee -- we do the 5-2-2 schedule as well, and it seems to work really well so far. It helps substantially that Dad's and Mom's houses are within 5 blocks of one another, so they can have the same neighborhood friends, school district choice is not an issue, etc.

Divorced mom of 1 - you have it right on. People in these situations need to be prepared from the start to deal with one another like adults. This is easier said than done when emotions like anger and resentment cloud judgment, but it is possible.

Divorced Mom - your post actually encouraged me to have hope. I am so glad to hear that your arrangement has worked as well as it has. You all deserve to be praised for your efforts to work together.

I am shocked to read that parents of young kids have "live ins"!

I enjoy having my stepsons for the weekend occasionally, but I would not like 50-50. That was one of the reasons I did not marry a great guy few years ago. He was very much into coparenting, was taking his young (3 and 5) kids on vacations with him, etc. Was flying across the country every weekend to be with them. No, ladies, I don't know if he is stil available...

I don't like 50-50 because I'm not much into talking/washing/cooking for the youn'uns. I like spur of the moment decisions, and don't care if there is milk in the fridge. Don't like to designate a room "for the kids". Don't care about their homework or award ceremonies (neither does my husband, so it would have ended up with me). The kids enjoy our financial support and occasional adventures with us.The ex seem to like it too.

Great topic today...my experience with divorce (there are many among my family members) isn't pleasant, naturally. My parents divorced when I was little and my mom remarried right away, so I grew up with a relatively normal two-parent household. My stepdad was more like a dad to me than my own father, who I went years without seeing. However, now that they are in their fifties, they are separated--(step)Dad decided he wanted to have a fling with someone else, changed his mind, but Mom had already moved on. It's ugly, and now my sister and I are feeling the terrible feelings most kids have when their parents divorce--you know, the ones I didn't feel the first time around because I was so young. I have come to the realization that there's a good chance they only stayed together because 1)she needed someone to support her financially and 2)he needed someone to mother his problematic daughter. Necessity kept them together, and now that we're grown and the situation is a bit less dire financially, they are free to grow apart.

My sister seems to have a good balance with her STBX. Neither of them are doing well financially, but he takes the kids on his weekends, and often more than that. If they need something, they go to Dad almost as often as to Mom. Naturally, he doesn't take care of them as much as she does, but that was the climate during their marriage as well. They are civil to each other and still have a great deal of affection, if not for each other, than for their past marriage and their kids. I am just an outsider looking in, but it seems to me that they've struck a balance in a situation where lots of people would have let circumstances divide them.

To any of you who are going through a divorce, slogging through custody arrangements, and finding a way to balance your children's days in two households, you have my sympathy. Best of luck.

I agree with "home" comments and insights
"Home" is not trying to say divorce should not take place- just stating insights and contributing to the blog. Yes many of the comments on this blog note "drunken bums" and how it was better to get out- That's obvious don't take an insightful comment to mean divorce should not be an option. I have noticed many times on these family blogs that the topic strays off the mark- due to someone's need to share such private remarks. I think almost everyone could contribute some kind of "disaster" story and it's important to share but why cloud the conversation so that your comment can produce a string of comments that takes the discussion off topic. Marriage, divorce and how to make it work. I think "home" has some good points that are being misconstrued just so others can contribute with anger instead of insight.

For 10:11 am - I haven't read all the posts, so I'm not sure about other "live-ins". But, I did mention it in mine. Here's how it worked. I was dating my partner for 2 years without him and my daughter ever staying in the same house overnight. When she started asking "Why do I always go to Dad's when XX comes over?" I talked to her about it. I explained that we'd be sharing a bedroom - and I didn't want her to feel uncomfortable (she was about 12 at the time I think?). She said she wasn't at all. At that point, he stayed over when she was here. We dated for 5 1/2 years before he moved in. She and he have a wonderful relationship. We moved at her pace, never forced anything in her face. Also, she was 14 or so when he moved in.

Her dad, btw, had his girlfriend living with them fairly quickly (long since over). I wasn't comfortable with it at the time, but it was *his* house, and I do not have say over his house (as he doesn't have say in mine). That's another key thing. Respect that you have different parenting styles, and don't freak over things that are done differently. The kids will pick up multiple ways of doing things. It's Ok.

For those of us with no experience with custody issues, what is a 5-2-2 schedule? 5 days with parent 1, 2 days with parent 2, 2 days with parent 1, 5 days with parent 2, 2 days with parent 1, 2 days with parent 2, etc.? It seems overly complicated - what is the reason for such a schedule?

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to BLE, good question. I thought dcdivorcee explained it well at 9:58 --

"For those not familiar, kids are with one parent every Mon/Tue and with the second parent every Wed/Thu. Parents then switch every other weekend. So for the weekends the child is with mom or dad for 5 days at a time."

The main reason it was chosen in my situation was because it allows the kids to share their day-to-day goings on with each parent equally, and also allowed each parent to fully integrate with the kids' school/activities on a more constant basis. Also, it seemed more than 5 days was a long time for the kids to go without seeing one parent, except in instances of vacations, etc. It may be that everyone decides down the road that less changeovers are better, but it seemed that at least initially, this was the best plan.

One of my girlfriends was divorced a couple of years ago, and another friend is divorced and remarried. At my previous job, several coworkers were having issues and attempting to hold on to their marriages through counseling. My former boss is separated from her husband. And I am going through a divorce that is relatively calm so far but has been pretty ugly thus far (a lot of the ugliness went away when the wrangling over the house was resolved). I have sole physcial custody, and we share legal custody. I do mostly everything, however, include care for and advocate for a son with disabilities. My daughter has no disabilities, but lately she cries a lot more. I don't say negative things about my ex around my children. I suspect he does not return the favor. He refuses to communicate with me. When he calls, I am to let my son answer the phone, I suppose so he doesn't have to hear my voice. Beyond bitter.

I stay exhausted, but I feel much better without than with him. It's great to see other couples working it out. I've certainly tried to make mine work, and I have that consolation. Now, it's time to move on.

"But the HIGH ROAD is absolutely the right thing and that is the #1 advise I'd give anyone involved in a divorce; no matter how ugly it gets."

Isn't the high road the best way to travel down most (not all) roads in life? Not much insight here.

STBX: soon-to-be-ex

"For those not familiar, kids are with one parent every Mon/Tue and with the second parent every Wed/Thu. Parents then switch every other weekend. So for the weekends the child is with mom or dad for 5 days at a time."

What a mess!! Widowhood is starting to look a lot better.

Divorced mom of 1:

No, we don't accept "mom didn't tell dad" as an excuse for missed assignments -- fourth-graders have assignment pads and are expected to be responsible for their own work. That doesn't mean parents (and students) don't try it anyway.

I was using the homework issue as an illustration of the confusion that arises when children are pulled in too many directions. Many parents DON'T talk about school, team practice, etc. with each other; I'm glad you and your ex do.

Of course the HIGH ROAD is the best road to talk in all aspects of our life.

The problem is it is too easy to get distracted from that high road. Especially during the intense emotions of divorce.

And unless you've been thru divorce; you have no idea how extreme those emotions are.

Military divorce -- and custody arrangements in general -- are indeed, a strange phenomenon.

Some things we've seen are a single mom by choice who flew her young child home from Europe to stay with family in the US every time she had a long deployment.

A friend who routinely took in her daughter's classmate when classmates dad (a widower) had duties that took him away from home.

A family at preschool that took in a classmate for five months while the mom, a single mother, was deployed.

The problem with the military making an exception for everyone who has sole custody regarding deployments is that (a.) the divorce rate is actually HIGHER in the military than in civilian society in general -- so the number of these special arrangments could easily get out of hand and make a unit less than ready for the task at hand (b.) the number of people who are single parents by choice is about the same as the civilian population -- not insignificant

And there are also more international couples (Korean, German, English, Philippines, etc. -- basically, anywhere there's a base)so custody arrangements are considerably more complicated. Apparently, not all of these countries have agreements with the US regarding custody issues, parental abductions and the like. There's really no easy solution to this one -- and the military has been working on it for years already.

To anon at 10:49, thanks for your input - really useful. Again, I would throw out that no one knows what is going on in someone else's house, OR what's best for someone else's family. When and if you have to deal with divorce and custody arrangements, I'll make sure not to call your chosenpath "a mess."

I really liked something foamgnome (I think it was foamgnome) posted earlier on about how shared custody often lets kids know one parent (usually the dad) BETTER than they knew him before the split. My dad is a very quiet guy, and I don't remember spending a lot of one on one time with him when I was little - but when I was in high school and early years of college, he started doing work that required him to live away from the family, and I got to visit him in other cities and felt like I really got to know him better. Obviously I don't mean that divorce is the best means to accomplish more one-on-one time - I'm just saying!

My parents divorced when I was in my early teens, just about 15 years ago.

They did not have good divorce. My younger sister and I witnessed lots of arguments -- shouting, name-calling, hysterical sobbing. We heard the accusations and each parents was all too eager to tell the "truth" about the other.

The divorce was long and drawn out. They fought over us. For a while I believed it was out of love, but later I began to think it was more over money. (The state in which they divorced has a high minimum percentage for child support payments.)

We ended up with a guardian ad litem. It didn't help. My mother told me not to say too much and I was too afraid to do otherwise.

I didn't see my father for years because he moved away and my mother hid his letters. Thinking he didn't love us anymore, I refused his phone calls.

All these years later, it is still a painful topic. I still wish they'd acted like adults, and not sniping kids. I still wish they'd tried to make an effort for civility. Please, divorcing parents, if you can't maintain a civil tongue, seek out help. Your kids deserve it.

"don't like 50-50 because I'm not much into talking/washing/cooking for the youn'uns. I like spur of the moment decisions, and don't care if there is milk in the fridge. Don't like to designate a room "for the kids". Don't care about their homework or award ceremonies (neither does my husband, so it would have ended up with me). The kids enjoy our financial support and occasional adventures with us.The ex seem to like it too."

This says a lot about you and your husband's lack of character. This may sound harsh, but frankly, if you don't care about the kids and their needs, you should not have married a man who has kids. And your blythe excuse that your husband does not care about them either is no defense. How could you respect a man who is completely unconcerned with the day to day parenting needs of his children. Money and financial support do not make a parent. Be prepared to be forgotten when those kids grow up and realize that their father and stepmother are selfish, uncaring, irresponsible dolts.

My parents divorced when I was 12. My dad remarried 9 years later.

Well, my mom let me know all about how terrible my dad was. He cheated on her with his secretary (how cliche, I know), he never made time for us kids (travelled months out of the year), and was an alcoholic (somewhat true).

They proceded to have an ugly battle in court that cost them each $10,000 or more. My mom got sole custody, child support, and alimony. We were allowed to visit my dad on our own accord (not without the guilt trips from my mom: "Why do you even want to see him! He abandoned us!").

Now, 15 years later (2 years longer than they were married, FWIW), my mom is suing my dad for back alimony. It seems his past employer never paid her his pension, as was agreed in the court documents. My dad will retire soon, and she's asking for half of his monthly income. And, of course, my brother and I get to hear all about it.

What makes this all okay is that they're my parents. I still love them both so much, and I hate to see them hurt each other, but I can only control my own actions. It would be nice sometime to say "Grow up! You're both adults!" But they are not perfect, so I just try to support them as best I can.

My parents are still married after 39 years of marriage. Her two sisters each have 2 divorces under their belts, while my dad's 3 siblings have all been married at least 32 years. My MIL has been divorced three times, and my BILs have been through various divorces and affairs. I only had two friends btwn high school and college who had divorced parents. Luckily my husband can see what went terribly awry with his parents.

If anyone reading the blog is having trouble and thinking about getting marital counseling, I highly recommend the book "Mindful Loving" by Henry Grayson, and finding a counselor who is familiar with it and uses it. If you go to the website, (www.mindfulloving.com, I think), I think there's a link that will let you find someone or email Grayson to ask for names of counselors in your area.

My husband and I sought counseling about a year ago and it just happened that the person who was recommended to us used this book. It was enormously helpful to us and strengthened our marriage and also strengthened each of us as individuals. On the other hand, I've seen friends and relatives go to marriage counselors and have almost the opposite happen - it seems like there are some counselors who just play the role of referee, deciding who is right about what disputes, which actually increases resentment and frustration, rather than helping the couples see the sources of the conflict and address them.

Even if you don't like the approach of Mindful Loving or want to use a book, I definitely recommend interviewing a couple different counselors to find someone who you think can really help you.

When son 1 was young(maybe 6 mos), I took him to music class. Because dh had a flexible schedule, he would take him every other week. One of the parents asked if that was part of our 'arrangement'-implying we were divorced. It was horible to me that that was the first reactio (rather than that he wanted to take son to class)-i told my sister the story about how sad it was and her first reaction was that she had a friend who divorced after child was under one year old. My reaction to that is that perhaps those people shouldn't be having children if the marraige couldn't last even that long.
But, I think it would be in best interest of said sister to divorce abusive husband. She thinks that might be admitting a mistake and goodness knows she couldn't do that (what would people say if she wasn't perfect?-well, she should hear (well she does) what people say about her now).

My husband and I have gone through a few rough patches lately- for the first time, divorce was actually thrown out (in anger, but still...) For those few hours before we both calmed down and realized that divorce is not in the equation, it was terrifying. We would have to move back home, closer to family- we'd live an hour away. I would get custody during the week, he'd get her weekends. And it would have been awful for our daughter.
We vowed then and there (again) to do whatever we could to stay together forever. Unless addiction, abuse, or adultery comes in to the picture, we will stick it out.
Bottom line, we're family. I don't have to be over the moon happy all the time. We argue, he gets on my nerves,...
I have arguments with my mom- but I'm not going to divorce her and get another one!

I think there's too much emphasis on being HAPPY all the time. You have to have the perfect marriage, perfect kids, perfect job...The topic yesterday really drove it home. Sometimes a job is just a job, sometimes, you have to do what may not be wonderful at the time.
Sometimes you just have to muddle through.

Emily

"This says a lot about you and your husband's lack of character"

By YOUR standards. There is some refeshing honesty in this post. Again, it is none of your business!

Home:

No one knows who I am on this blog. My friends and family do not know I post here.

Even if all my friends and family were to read every comment, nothing I have said today would be a surprise to any of them (including my sons). I have not shared even one-tenth of what they have witnessed.

Would you prefer I disguise myself when I go to al-anon meetings, in the event that someone I know from elsewhere might see me enter a meeting room?

I shared a (very) few of the graphic details of my former life to make the point that blanket statements with the basic theme of "stick it out for the kids" are ridiculous on their face. Every situation is different, and you should not judge until you have walked a mile in someone else's shoes. For that matter, "divorce is no big deal" statements are equally inappropriate, although I have not seen anyone express that viewpoint here today.

And, yes, I am angry. I'm also defensive. One tends to get that way after years of being called a loser, stupid, worthless, nothing, and a variety of other, more colorful insults that I don't care to share. I will heal eventually, but I have not done so yet.

Since you said right up front that you knew you were going to get a lot of responses, I am sure that you had to be aware that at least some of them would not support your viewpoint.

"By YOUR standards. There is some refeshing honesty in this post. Again, it is none of your business"

Sure, it's honest, but that does not make it any less despicable. A women who encourages her husband to have a minimal relationship with his children because it's inconvenient is not a person of good character, nor is the husband who neglects his children. And as to whether it's my business or not, people should not post things that they don't want to be commented on. They minute they post something, they are fair game to people's opinions. In this case, I am disgusted.

Home, thank you for your post. It strikes a nerve as I am experiencing doubts in my three year old marriage. But I agree that with work, things can get better. We're seeing a therapist soon. Educmom, I agree with your points too. Hang in there. Things get better.

My feeling is that each marriage is different and you have to make your decision based on what your gut tells you.

Meesh, what's that about back-pay? I didn't realize it was possible... anyone know if that is that just for alimony, or is it possible to get back child support paid long after the fact? Anyone?

" The kids enjoy our financial support and occasional adventures with us.The ex seem to like it too."

This is just a question: why did your husband want kids in the first place if he wasn't interested in parenting? It is not a criticism just a curiosity.

I can't find it now, but I think it was C.W. who said her sister is staying in an alcoholic marriage...please, please tell her to join al-anon. It will help her to cope with the difficulties that will arise in the life she is choosing. The program has literally saved my life! And, please help the extended family not to judge her too harshly. She needs all the love and support she can get.

Meesh, what's that about back-pay? I didn't realize it was possible... anyone know if that is that just for alimony, or is it possible to get back child support paid long after the fact? Anyone?

Posted by: Chris | May 16, 2007 11:20 AM
It is a legal possibility but it is hard to track the dead beat parent. Even if you do, doesn't guarantee he has any money.

Chris,
My guess is that any back child support would be owed to your mom, not you.

Meesh, your parents are lucky to have such a forgiving and understanding daughter. I don't think I have ever been that accomodating.

My parents divorced when I was in college - they did a great job at not criticizing each other and keeping the inevitable ugliness between themselves. My college graduation was the first time they saw each other after the divorce. The months leading up to it was the first time they let their emotions out to me, in the form of "Well, I'm not going to Campus Dance if your father/mother is." After trying to accomdate this for a while, I finally put my foot down. I called them both and said, "I'm tired of this, we're all adults, you can either come to events or not but I'm not going to be your negotiator and I'm not going to be the one who chooses who does what." And truly, they stepped up to the plate and were great during that weekend. Each family gather (funerals and weddings) got easier, and now that we are all living in the same state and there are grandchildren in the picture they've been very willing to do holidays and birthdays all together, which is lovely. I have a lot of admiration for how they have both moved on in their own ways.

Just to play the devil's advocate, I'll tackle the idea that that divorce may not that big of a deal (educmom mentioned it).

If you are religious, marriage is a sacrament. Therefore, divorce is a HUGE deal for them. I'm not talking about those people.

For people who are not religious, marriage is a legal contract. Contracts are broken all the time, with the usual penalties involved.

I'll say that the most desctructive part of divorce is the penalty--paying lawyers thousands of dollars to sort out the logistics of houses and cars. But handled properly, divorce can actually make lives better. So, in my opinion, if you're not religious, it is not necessary to stay in a loveless marriage. Why waste your life being unhappy? Why try to force something that's not working?

As a side note, some might think that my opinion is based on getting the wrong idea of marrige from my parents, but, in fact, I am religious and I take my marriage vow very seriously. I just think that forcing that view on non-religious people is kind of strange.

My divorce was a long time coming; I was married to an irresponsible, untreated bipolar alcoholic.

Predictably, it was ugly at first--for about five or six months. By the time we divorced, we were on friendly terms.

I have sole custody of our child, and he pays no child support. He has remarried an Australian and lives 10,000 miles away, and I have no idea if he will ever see his daughter again.

I wonder about the 50/50 arrangements...I remember back in the early '80s, Ted Nugent and his ex-wife had a similar arrangement: the kids kept the house and the mother and father split residence there in six-month intervals. At the time, I thought that was a rather radical idea, but these 50/50 arrangements are much more common now.

Chris, I have a cousin who went to court and collected on many years of long-unpaid back child support from her ex after she found out from others that he'd hit better times financially. After years of living in small apartments in public housing, she used part of the money for a down payment on a house for herself and their child. While I imagine this is a pretty rare case, still it's heartening.

educmom
I did not state "divorce is no big deal"
I have posted my comments and tried to be positive not derogatory in thought.
I have nothing more to comment back to you except I hope you and your family are able to heal. I did not post a comment to have my viewpoint win overall acceptance. I am not in need of adulation regarding this blog. As noted my comment was posted as a means to convey my opinion and experience.

I am just curious, do women get awarded alimony a lot these days? I really don't believe in it myself, but am just wondering what everyone else thinks.

Emily, I'd be just fine with it going to my poor mom.

Chris, in my mom's case, my dad payed all his child support and continues to pay alimony. She sued him for his employer's negligence. But it was easy for her to do so because (a), she knows where he is and can easily communicate with him and (b) she has the court papers that say if the employer didn't pay, it was my dad's responsibilit to do so.

In general, I have no idea how one would go about suing an absent dad who owes child support.

Thanks, 11;11!

I proved that I was taking those issues seriously when I did NOT marry a great guy who was very much into 50-50 parenting (of course, my husband is wonderful, not just great!) Somebody else who shares his philosophy will be happy and make him happier (that was hard to explain to him at a time).
Our arrangement works, we had this system from when they were 4 and 7 to present time (11 and 14). Actually, they can stay longer now, if they want, as long as they can find some food in the pantry and clean up after themselves. No maids in this house. Emily is a prude. Go wash some sippy cups.

As noted my comment was posted as a means to convey my opinion and experience

So was educmom.

Chris,
How's your wife doing?

"why did your husband want kids in the first place if he wasn't interested in parenting? It is not a criticism just a curiosity."

maybe his wife wanted them, and he was just OK with it

Hmmm. An issue close to my heart. My husband has a daughter from his first marriage, and we have tried very hard to make sure she is in the center of our family, as children should be. I knew when we started dating that the two of them were a package deal, so to speak. What I could not have foreseen was just how thankless being a stepparent can be. We've had quite a few conversations along the lines of "You're not my mother, you can't tell me what to do". I am not her mother, but when she was living in the house my husband and I shared, whether temporarily (when we shared custody with the egg donor) or permanently (when the egg donor threw her out and she came to live with us), I would have liked at least a modicum of respect. Rambling -- or maybe ranting. In any case, I think that it is critical, particularly when other children enter the picture (as my husband's and my children did several years ago) that the children from a previous marriage continue to feel a part of the family. We have often erred on the side of caution, for example, making sure that we don't schedule family vacations without seeing if she's available, even though she's out of the house now and living on her own. She is also part of the "Christmas picture" every year, even though trying to get her scheduled with the kids can be trying -- she's got a very busy social life, and with work and school, it's crazy.

Meesh

"If you are religious, marriage is a sacrament"

There are some religions which DO NOT consider marriage a sacrament.

Chris:

Laws regarding back child support vary state-by-state. Here in Arizona, if the back child support is not reduced to written judgment within three years of emanicipation of the last minor child, then the debt is considered settled. It usually falls upon our state Department of Economic Security to bring these cases to court because so many of the parents are on public assistance, and DES goes after the delinquent parent to get the money owed.

It's a statute of limitations, so it is really the responsibility of the parent who is owed to keep this in court.

I'm not sure where your mom lives or how long ago the debt was owed, but if it is substantial and if there are assets to secure, she should consider filing paperwork in court if she is able to do so.

"maybe his wife wanted them, and he was just OK with it"

Well then he should take some responsibility for actually parenting them. A man who is not interested in his children, their homework, their award ceremonies, etc. is not a wonderful man. He is a poor excuse for a father. But it sounds like Bangheera and he deserve each other. Birds of a feather.

To Scarry: Alimony (i.e., spousal support) and child-support are entirely different matters. Celebrity divorces aside, my impression is that alimony isn't paid as often (or at least in such large amounts) nowadays as it once was, on the theory that most ex-spouses are able to find jobs support themselves financially to some extent; an exception might be made for an elderly SAH spouse who was married for many decades, with the reasonable expectation of staying married to the spouse "till death do us part" until the divorce cropped up.

Actually, they can stay longer now, if they want, as long as they can find some food in the pantry and clean up after themselves.

This is sad. I wouldn't have a house sitter in my house without food, let alone my children. Don't you buy stuff for them to eat when you know they are coming over?

I share Emily's standards, and I'm sure I am not alone. Just because someone is honest about their lack of character doesn't make them any less slimy.

11:42, you're absolutely right. I knew that, but didn't know which religions, so I thought I'd err on the side of caution and be ambiguous instead of flat-out wrong. Hope I didn't offend.

Bangheera: It sounds like it is working for you and your spouse. But have you asked the kids if it is working for them? There is a big difference in being a maid and providing basic care (food). If your husband wasn't interested in parenting, he should have done something about it prior to the conception of these kids. If he failed to do that, then the children are his responsibility whether he likes it or not.

WorkingmomX
Good for you for making such an effort to include your stepdaughter in the family. I realize stepparenting is a thankless job (I was a stepchild). But I bet that in time, your stepdaughter will realize and appreciate your efforts, especially as she matures. You have set a wonderful example for her and for your own children.

WorkingMomX

"What I could not have foreseen was just how thankless being a stepparent can be"

Thank YOU for your refreshing honesty. Today is turning out to be some kind of a watershed day for this board.

"For people who are not religious, marriage is a legal contract. Contracts are broken all the time, with the usual penalties involved."

Meesh, I understand and appreciate the spirit of your post, but I will say that as a non-religious person, I view my marriage as much more than a legal contract, and so does every other non-religious person I know. While my understanding and feelings about marriage and divorce are undoubtedly different from those of a very religious person - and I do not have the religious barriers to divorce that some do - marriage to me is still a sacred relationship that extends far beyond the legal rights and obligations it entails. I have committed to sharing my life with someone, and to supporting, caring and loving him throughout our lives, and this is not something I take lightly or a commitment I would break as easily as a simple contract.

And obviously, once there are children, the equation changes again and the questions become even more complicated, regardless of religious beliefs.

Again, I know you did not mean to imply anything negative and were saying that religious beliefs should not be forced upon non-believers, and I agree with you completely on that. But I just wanted to put it out there that lack of religion does not mean that marriage or divorce can or should be taken lightly.

catlady,

I can see it in the situations you described, but half of someone's monthly income is a lot of money. Meesh does/did your mom work? I am just wondering, I am not saying anything bad about your mom. I find legal stuff interesting.

Try a university near you-they may be able to give you reduced or free rates by using them for legal advice and/or representation.

Meesh --

Ok, have to beg to differ with your 11:32 devil's advocate argument on divorce being "no big deal." I 100% agree with you that in a lot of cases, it's for the best, and the issues it raises can be worked through. But it IS a big deal to the family going through it -- it's a fundamental change to the family structure, that shoots down hopes and dreams and replaces them with a scary new unknown reality.

I don't think you're really denying that divorce can raise problems; I think your point is that sometimes those problems are the lesser of the evils, and can frequently be handled and solved if the parents act like grownups and give the kids the support they need. And that I completely agree with. But it just bugs me when I hear people say "no big deal," because it trivializes what people have to go through to get to that new happy place.

Just one little example, my mom tells me that for months after my dad left, I screamed my head off for hours every time she left the house, because I was afraid she wasn't coming back either. Am I scarred for life? Nope -- don't even remember that now (I was @ 3), have a good relationship with my dad, am happily married, etc. But it was very definitely a big deal at the time, which required a lot of work and support from both my parents to get us all through, and some work from me even decades later to realize some of the messages I had internalized from that whole experience.

Oka