first

second

second, dammit!

As I've said before, it's been my personal experience (and that of many women I know who returned to the workforce after being SAHMs) that it is not difficult to return to work after taking a hiatus to raise your kids for a period of time. It just isn't. It's all about compromise and reality. I'm sure there are SAHMs who are having problems finding work, but I would ask whether you're being reasonable in your expectations and diligent in your search.

Off topic alert: To clarify a post I made late yesterday, I do not have any strong feelings about vegans or vegetarians, whether it's right or wrong, etc. In the post, it looked like I was the one who said something about babies/children needing meat, but it was a quote from the NY Times article. Sorry for any confusion it might have caused. I just thought it was an interesting perspective.

Lori DiPrete Brown is a real airhead who let her name be published along with her foolish quotes. Leslie has to know how silly this woman comes off in her article.

"I always felt, women are going to live at least five to 10 years longer than men anyway, so what's the big deal if we take a few years off?"

"Returning to work has taught my kids the beginnings of reciprocity," she explains. "I sacrificed for them for years."

Sacrifice? Huh? Sounds like another marytr type!

sixth!

I will be here early this a.m.

I see my complaint has already been aired. I don't know if Lori is an airhead but her "sacrifice" comment is irritating and revealing.

Wow! Is that really Leslie's photo in the
Trying to Opt Back In article?

She looks like she had a facelift gone wrong.

I find this interesting. I have no reason to believe that it is difficult for many college educated women to return to the workplace after a few years off. However, I think it totally varies by the kind of work that women do. There are some professions (albeit, maybe not most) for which it is simply not possible to take off years and then return to a comparable job.

I, for example, am a university professor at a large state university. The reality of my job is such that I can't leave for more than a semester - maybe two at most. If I did, I would lose my job. And tenure-track university positions are VERY difficult to come by. When I was ready to return I could likely find myself a job teaching at a community college or teaching as a visiting professor somewhere. But, I seriously doubt that I would ever find another permanent, tenure-track position at a large university. What does it matter as long as I can still teach as a professor? It matters a GREAT deal in terms of salary and benefits, in terms of having the resources to conduct research as well as teach, in terms of job security, and in terms of the respect and status given to the employee. While I would really love to take off two or three years after the birth of my (upcoming) children, I simply can't do it unless I want to have a substantially different career track afterwards. And I've already invested 4 years of college, 6 years of grad school and 4 years on the job. I can't do that.

While academia is its own crazy world, I know that there are still other professions out there that have similar constraints. So, please don't make it sound like ALL well-educated women could take off from work and then return without much problem. It's simply not true.

Leslie,
Did you interview engineering/computer scientists and other high tech fields? I bet your results would have been drastically different in technical fields, especially those with higher degrees (MS, PhD). High Tech companies want people with specific technical skills or those directly out of college. These skills must be current within one year. If you have greater than one year gap, then all the experience/training is out the window. You won't even be put into the 'consider' pile. I have heard many hr people tell me this.
As an aside, I consider this hiring practice to be a tragic waste. Companies chomping at the bit to increase the H1B levels for technical skills when there is a pool of local women with almost-current skills that would love those positions.

"I think I am in some sort of 'job limbo'--too qualified for an entry-level position, but not able to work full time at a management-level position either" From the article.

Actually, you should start at entry level after being out for six years. You think people didn't learn new skills in the six years you were out?

anon at 8:31 -
I concur with your post.

Thanks for this. As much as I love being at home right now, I confess I've been worried about how it's going to impact my legal career in the long run. I'ts good to know that at least some women are able to go back.

Did any of the women you interviewed dicuss whet, if anything, they did to keep current in their fields while they were at home? I suspect it would be easier to find work in the long run if, say, I got involved in my local bar association now. Did you speak to anyone who's had that experience?

I was also bothered by Lori's "sacrifice" comment. I never felt like I was sacrificing anything when I was home with my sons, and I didn't make anyone feel like they were all making some big sacrifice to me when I went back.

Now, I gave up those years of earning potential -- and, gee, you know how much teachers make ;)

But I wanted to be home, because I wanted to have that time with the boys. I knew that time would end soon enough, and I didn't want to miss it. Also, I didn't think anyone would take care of them the way I wanted, and I had some definite ideas about the ideal environment for children in early childhood. Yes, a little control-freakish and selfish, but I figured I was lucky -- what was good for me was also good for them.

I never felt like I was a martyr to my family!

When I went back to work, I did sit them down and explain that there were some things that would need to change. They weren't big things -- they already had chores, so when I added a little more, it was not such a big deal. And I told them I would not have quite so much free time to spend (they were certainly OK with that). We already viewed ourselves as a family, and part of being a family is pitching in for the common good.

Lori's kids need to strap in -- they are in for one long guilt trip.

"I sacrificed for them for years. Now they ask me at the end of each day, 'Mom, what did you do today?' "

Hmmm. Sounds like she's one of those moms who will remind her kids 20 years from now how long she was giving birth to them.

And all of those damn diapers she had to change.

Hey lady, it was your choice to spread your legs. Get over yourself.

Back in January, the agency that I work for ended my division. There were forced reallocation of jobs. Not all jobs transferred very well. I got stuck working for a group that is not family friendly. I was working part time and was told I would have to go full time in 6 months. I started juicing up my resume and started looking for a new job. In the mean time, I did everything that I could for the new project. I took on a project that no one seemed to want and ran with. I actually found I liked it a lot but it only took up about 10% of my time. The rest of my time, I finished up my research from the previous area. Now my papers are going to be published next month and I would be left with only 10% work load. The whole time I have been begging for more work because I knew that my work load would end mid year. Well, I did find it hard to switch jobs going part time. I could not find anything that would allow me to do that. But I worked out a new deal with the new job. I would take all the less then desirable jobs (production) but remain part time till they can find enough work for me to justify full time. My guess is they really don't care if I ever go back full time. But only time will tell. Here is the deal, I get all the bad assignments, get huge flexibility, and it is basically a dead end career choice. It is not a problem because I personally don't want to move up. I reached a level that it is hard to move around because there are simply less jobs at this level. And it seems like no one wants part timers on great and interesting projects. It doesn't bother me to be doing work that no one else wants to do, if I can do it and leave at the end of the day. I did turn down a very interesting and career promising job last week because it involved late nights and travel. This is just one of the compromises you have to make when your a parent. I don't think you can have it all at once. Once the kids are out of school or older, you can take on more demanding jobs. But it is not so bad to take a mommy track position. I personally love it. Best of luck to all returning moms. I also wanted to say I wondered if the 97% of women who take time off includes maternity leave. I don't really consider 8-20 weeks of maternity leave as taking time off from work. A lot of women are even getting paid during that time.

foamgnome

Your post is too long.

Foamgnome -- That's a great story. It's wonderful that you've found a way to make compromises so you can have what you want. Good for you!

"I sacrificed for them for years"

Lori,

You stayed home from work on someone else's dime for years!

Jesus made the sacrifice!

In the engineering technology field, entry level positions almost always ask for both education (4 years preferred, 2 year technical school degree bare minimum) as well as experience (preferably at least 2 years current). My wife ran into this after getting the 2 year CET degree; where was she to get the experience if she just spent the last two years in school?

After months of taking temp work whereever she could get it, she finally landed a position in a small growing consultant firm, where she is now their senior designer. Additionally, her boss has said that when she does go on maternity leave, while he may hire someone temporarily to fill in while she's out, if she wants to return the position will be there for her.

foamgnome

Your post is too long.

Posted by: | May 23, 2007 09:05 AM
Sorry.

"Hmmm. Sounds like she's one of those moms who will remind her kids 20 years from now how long she was giving birth to them. "

And wonder why they never visit her in the old folks home!

She is probably a royal pain in the butt to her husband and friends, as well.

foamgnome - no need to apologize to the anon at 9:05. his/her post is out of line. We've gone through this "I'm sorry" Remember?? My first response to someone criticizing tends to be "I'm sorry" way way too often myself. Confidence woman! Ha ha ha! Have a great day!

I don't really understand all the reactions to the use of the word "sacrifice" partly because in Latin America "sacrifice" does not carry a bad connotation. La Familia is the primary social unit in Latino culture. Family gives meaning to the individual's life and he/she serves his/her family with pride. We take pride in keeping family together, no matter what occurs. Therefore, sacrifice does not mean that children are not looked upon as a burden, but rather they are looked upon as a blessing and something to be cherished, and worth sacrificing for.

The moms who responded were somewhat self-selecting. They were successful in their aims and happy to talk about it. Those who did have difficulty (such as those in certain fields--tech, academia, what-have-you), may not have been as willing to talk about their struggles.

"Sacrifice" swings both ways. Quite a few of my friends "sacrifice" and work as the primary bread-winner, when they tell me they wish they could be home with their kids instead. If the child knows he/she is truly loved, that is most important.

I liked Leslie's post, actually, and take it as a sign that times ARE changing. Maybe not in all fields, but we have to start somewhere and hopefully the effect will widen. I also appreciate that Leslie mentioned men at the end in her ultimate wish for "a cornucopia of flexible, well-paid, part-time work for men and women in all segments of the labor force".

Improving mothers' chances of on-ramping is great, but keeps women chained to the primary caregiver and housekeeper roles. If neither parent actually had to re-enter the workforce (because they never left it, but flexed down to manageable hours instead while their kids were young), that's when we'd really see the world change.

You guys are judging Lori Diprete Brown too harshly, based on that one quote. Some of the other things she said in her interview included, "I never resented the sacrifices I made for my children." But she's clearly happy to be back at work now. That's not putting a guilt trip on her kids. I think you are projecting your own insecurities onto her, unfairly.

I agree that the challenges in academia are different than many other fields. I hear frequently that university-level academic fields are notoriously family-unfriendly, for many reasons. The hope is that universities will start losing some of their most talented staff to more innovative employers, and they will (eventually) start to change.

The challenges in tech-driven fields are unique as well -- an extreme case of what I saw in most workplaces. Your skills do get outdated astonishingly quickly. But that doesn't mean you can't brush up -- the same aptitude that led you to tech in the first place will serve you well when returning.

It is really tough to stay current and network, especially given the exhausting demands of daily life with children. What I recommend is staying in touch with your friends from work, attending a handful of work-related events a year, and keeping a few industry-related subscriptions. Do the minimum in terms of networking -- otherwise it's too intimidating to keep up and you may just give up.

Also, I talked with women who chose their volunteer actitivites to sync up with their work skills. For instance, a former wash post sales rep has run her school auction for the past few years -- and double the revenue every year. This is a realistic achievement she can use in future job interviews, if/when she goes back.

I agree, it is a lot harder to return to an IT or engineering job after taking time off. I don't understand why companies do not offer more flexible/part time jobs for whoever wants them. We have a few people in my (engineering) department who do this and it seems to work out great for everyone.

It is really tough to stay current and network, especially given the exhausting demands of daily life with children.

So the rest of us who work and have children must be close to death as compared to the SAHMs. Geeze.

Leslie

"You guys are judging Lori Diprete Brown too harshly, based on that one quote."

Nope, "sacrifice" and "reciprocity" are martyr buzzwords. Don't need any more grounds.

Foamgnome, I'm sorry about your division closing and all the subsequent hassle. It sounds like one of the best things is that you've been able to keep your skills up-to-date and take on a variety of projects. While it doesn't apply to every field, as you note in your and some other cases, "Once the kids are out of school or older, you can take on more demanding jobs." Best of luck!

"It is really tough to stay current and network, especially given the exhausting demands of daily life with children."

Ha, ha ! How hard can it be?

Hi June. You've got the issue here. To me, sacrifice and reciprocity are a wonderful part of family life. Why have these concepts struck such a nerve for you?

It is really tough to stay current and network, especially given the exhausting demands of daily life with children.

Now try doing it while employed full-time.

Hear the world's smallest violin going?

Me too.

I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape if a mother says she feels like she sacrificed. I really don't get it. I was on a totally different career trajectory before I had children, a much more lucrative and professionally exciting one than I'm on now, and I chose to take another path. Was it a sacrifice? YES. Do I mind? Not usually.

Why is sacrificing a bad thing to do? Have you never sacrificed for a spouse, sibling, parent, child? And what's wrong with expecting her children to be understanding and deal with the fact that mom is going to return to work? I really don't understand the vitriol on this board, but then, I usually don't. There are a lot of frustrated people out there . . .

Part of the reason it is hard to stay current and network - at least if you are talking about staying in touch (in person)with the people I used to work with full time - is that those activities would have to occur during the day. What to do with the two kids???

I am lucky that I am allowed to work part time from home with my current firm. A friend watches them two afternoons and I work at night. I only go to the office about once a quarter. But then again, I earned this credibility with the amount of work I did back in Y2K both at the office and at home.

I could transition back to full time seamlessly as long as my group is working on the current contract. When it is up - things get much more problematic since I am a dinosauer in the computing world (COBOL).

What to do... and when... is the question...

Leslie,
Your comment about brushing up on tech skills shows you don't know much about tech skills. Learning the latest software/hardware packages (e.g., MS Visual Studio 2005, asp.net), networking protocols, enterprise systems, etc. etc., isn't something you can 'brush up on.' You can't brush up on tech skills by reading a book. You have to work on a project...which means a job, which you can't get because you don't have the current tech skills. Companies want either newbies out of school (aka those who will work insane hours) or people with 1-2 years experience in specific skills. Brushing up on a skill won't give you the experience needed to get yourself considered for a job. Networking via friends will get you considered though.

I have a friend that was rejected for volunteering to work with the computer network at the local school system...they wanted only volunteers with current skills. She'd been out for 5 years.

To NewSAHM -- I am a lawyer in a firm responsible for some of the hiring. Although I have never come across this issue, I have some ideas to break back into the practice. You can try staying current with the ABA and any industry specific group to learn of any new areas in your practice area. But perhaps you should write an article on a hot topic in your field once a year or right before you come back. This would show an employer a current writing sample and will show you are abreast on hot topics. Like I said, I have never seen this, but it would impress me.

Also, I have a boss who says (privately of course) that he likes hiring moms because they can multitask better than anyone else and never get flustered no matter what comes at them!!!

Well, semantics do matter in oh-so-many ways.

For example, telling a child that his/her conception was "an accident" or "a mistake" is a far cry from saying "you were a surprise".

"Martyr" does not have the same connotation as "supporter".

I don't know why anyone would have a problem with reciprocal. As long as those who strike the bargain agree to its terms, and neither feels as though they didn't have bargaining power, of course. If you don't feel as though you can walk away from the deal, then you have other problems to address.

And yes, the word "sacrifice" is often used by those who looking to bludgeon others into doing their bidding. It involves guilt, it involves obligation (and mind you, there is NO WAY a child can ever truly re-pay the incurred "debt" owed to their parent. They start in the hole, they stay there!).

vsac·ri·fice (săk'rə-fīs')
n.

The act of offering something to a deity in propitiation or homage, especially the ritual slaughter of an animal or a person.
A victim offered in this way.

Forfeiture of something highly valued for the sake of one considered to have a greater value or claim.
Something so forfeited.

Relinquishment of something at less than its presumed value.
Something so relinquished.
A loss so sustained.

Another reason it is easier to stay current and network when employed is that seminar fees, association dues, meeting costs, etc are often paid for by your employer. This doesn't include any in house training you may recieve. Costs many SAHP's may not have budgeted for when they decided they could live on one salary.

Leslie, those school auction things are ridiculously demanding! It really is like a full time job. I tried to do that while parenting a toddler, pregnant, and holding down a full time job and even with 40 volunteers (or maybe because of the effort of supervising 40 volunteers!) I was disappointed by how little money was actually raised given the effort so many people had put into it. Unless you have kids in school so hours of REAL free time (taking toddler to park may look like free time, but it really isn't) handling these types of events takes massive organization and hours and for seemingly little money.

But it IS a fun evening!

I stayed at home for two years with my son and only went back that early (I would have liked to stay home for at least 5 years) because I was 39 and worried I would find it difficult to get back into the work force if I waited any longer. I would definitely had stayed off work longer if I had been younger.

On the positive side, even though I had moved from the UK to the US in that time, I did get a job at a level that almost equated where I had left off with a salary that exceeded the salary I had been on.

I was disappointed by how little money was actually raised given the effort so many people had put into it.

It's kind of like those "walk-a-thon" events. If you knew how little money actually goes into the research for the disease (for example), you'd simply by-pass the event and write check directly to the AHA, or whatever.

As Foamgnome knows full well, the devil is in the details. This applies to accounting as well.

It's also a great example of why I do NOT buy things that purport to be fund-raisers for the school. I simply write a check directly to the PTA, or whatever, with a notation if there is something I would like it to be applied to directly. The school library, for example. I don't send in cookies to the bake sale, I send in a check.

I can buy my kids schlock almost anywhere, if I wanted to do so.

Clicksters, just ignore Leslie when it comes to academia, because she doesn't know what she's talking about.

Leslie wrote: "I agree that the challenges in academia are different than many other fields. I hear frequently that university-level academic fields are notoriously family-unfriendly, for many reasons."

No, Leslie, the difference is that being a tenure-stream academic isn't just a job, it's a way of life, a mind-set, a calling. Most academics have a natural inclination, dedication and passion for it. Those who don't often de-select themselves sooner or later.

Leslie wrote: "The hope is that universities will start losing some of their most talented staff to more innovative employers, and they will (eventually) start to change."

Here Leslie exhibits her often barely-concealed hostility toward and ignorance of the nature of academia, by explicitly wishing universities ill ("hope [they] will start losing... their most talented [faculty]").

Leslie, the most talented faculty would rather be in academia than in the corporate world, because academia affords a range of other freedoms that typical workplaces can't or won't, in terms of academic freedom -- the biggie, covering what one can teach in the classroom or do for research, within reason, or course -- scheduling, telecommuting, even dress and grooming. Faculty positions often have some built-in flexibility of hours beyond classroom and lab time, e.g., professional reading and writing don't have to be accomplished just at one's workplace on weekdays from 8-5; it can be done just as well if not better, say, at home after children are asleep. Now that IS family-friendly.

And, Leslie, the innovative employers you mistily imagine may offer lots of great on-site and other benefits, but they also tend to work their employees like dogs (think of Google, MicroSoft, etc.). Nothing family-friendly about that.

It's true that a tenure-track faculty member can sometimes return after several years out of the workplace in a non-tenure-track instructor/lecturer, adjunct or visiting faculty capacity or as a glorified lab technician, but those tend to be insecure, lower-paying, short-term and/or often dead-end jobs, and may depend upon "soft" money beyond the employee's control. Plus, if the you haven't kept up your reading in your field, it typically takes a lot more than mere "brush[ing] up" to get your chops back.

Volunteering can be a great way to stay up with developments in your field -- or a complete waste of time. I've had a fair amount of experience with multiple moves and here are some things I've learned:

1. It's always better to volunteer with an established group that has training, a system for documenting what you did and a clearly established hierarchy of volunteers in which you can move up into progressively more responsible positions. (For example, with Girl Scouts you can run an entire summer camp as a volunteer; serve as the Service Unit Chairman, basically supervising all the girl scout troops in your town, get free computer training, attend national conferences, write articles for their newsletter and so forth. With my child's preschool, I can cut things out of construction paper.)

2. Try to find volunteer jobs that either help you make connections (a friend of mine who's a hospital administrator routinely volunteered on weekends at a hospital while home with her kids) or allow you to do projects that demonstrate your expertise in your field (i.e. a grantwriter can write a grant for the preschool, a landscape designer can work with the architects to plan the landscaping for the new addition at the children's school).
However, I had a real problem at one of my children's schools where they had a policy of never letting volunteers do "substantive work". At one point, I looked around and there were three women with Ph.D.'s cutting things out of construction paper. Go figure. That's when I discovered the joys of volunteering elsewhere.

3. Lately, I've become involved with several volunteer boards and commissions related to our town government. I've done some projects for them, and most importantly, now know lots of important people in our current town (we move a lot) who can write me letters of recommendation and make phone calls on my behalf. Wish I'd know about these types of positions sooner. I also have an inside track on city jobs and jobs available at city contractor's.

I would imagine that being a member of your local chapter of a professional organization (for me it would be the society of technical communication) would help keep you in the loop, especially if you attend all the meetings and maybe even volunteer to be the treasurer or minutes keeper or something. Lots of professional organizations have presentations about new innovations in the field and might have conferences.

Wow Armchair Mom -- great suggestions.

Speaking of academia, I just found out that a friend of mine, an associate professor, and an M.D./Ph.D earns LESS than I do. By a cool 10%. I have a bachelor's and work in a fairly specialized area...but still! This university has provided her with an incredible match to her 401K, which is pretty much the only reason she is still working there. For now.

Anyone looking to hire a physiologist who has a strong biochemistry background? She's a steal, evidently.

Since I missed yesterday's discussion, including going off-topic onto vegetarianism -- for the record, I still eat dairy and eggs, so am not a vegan -- I'd like to contribute the following easy recipe, which proves there IS such a thing as a delicious vegan baked dessert. Of course, if pATRICK wants to put meat on top of his cupcake, who am I to stop him ;-)))

NON-DAIRY, EGG-LESS CHOCOLATE CAKE

1½ cups flour
1 cup sugar
¼ cup unsweetened cocoa
1 teaspoon baking soda
½ teaspoon salt
1 cup water
1/3 cup mild-flavored vegetable oil
1 tablespoon white vinegar
1 teaspoon pure vanilla extract

Grease a 9"x13"x2" cake-pan, or line two standard-sized 12-cell cupcake tins with paper cups. In a large bowl, mix together and sift the dry ingredients. Add the liquids, beating till just combined (do not overbeat). Pour the batter into pan(s). Bake 40-50 minutes at 350°F, or fill toothpick comes out clean when inserted in center of cake. Cool on wire rack.

COMMENTS:
Very easy recipe. Produces a lightweight, not-too-rich devil's food-type cake. Tasters won't realize it doesn't contain any eggs or dairy products. Suitable for a wide variety of vegan toppings, e.g. sifted powdered sugar, melted bittersweet or semisweet chocolate for coating, raspberry jelly, cherry-pie filling, and/or non-dairy whipped topping.

Catlady, that does sound good. Thank for reminding me - someone asked yesterday was SDA is - Seventh Day Adventist.

I think a lot of the ease of returning to work has to do with what you do for your career while you aren't working full-time. And I believe it is totally career specific how easy/hard it is to return. As a journalist who stays at home, I try to keep my resume fresh by writing freelance stories, but I also attend writing classes and (some, not enough) networking events to make sure I keep my skills and contacts fresh. I don't want to return to entry level when I go back full-time, and this is why, among other reasons, I do these things. I guess I sort of agree with an earlier poster that if you've been out for several years, you might have to start at the bottom because the skill set required for a job may have changed. I certainly couldn't afford day care if I had to start at an entry-level salary. I think moms and dads who stay at home for a time with the idea that they want to return at some point need to plan for how they'll do that. You can't afford not to!

I simply can't do it unless I want to have a substantially different career track afterwards

Oh, that's right. I want to have children and I want my life to stay exactly the same as it is. Good luck with that.

Armchair mom. How very sad that volunteering is about what you can get out of it, not what you can give to someone else.

anon for this one at 10:35 AM wrote: "Speaking of academia, I just found out that a friend of mine, an associate professor, and an M.D./Ph.D earns LESS than I do. By a cool 10%. I have a bachelor's and work in a fairly specialized area...but still! This university has provided her with an incredible match to her 401K, which is pretty much the only reason she is still working there."

This reminds me of posters from a few weeks ago who lamented short-sighted young employees who'd rather get a slightly larger paycheck right now while giving up more lucrative benefits (including toward retirement).

One of the great advantages of academic life, or even working for a college or university in a staff (i.e., non-academic) capacity, is some of the fringe benefits. E.g., tuition benefits for self and family -- talk about family-friendly! -- generally excellent retirement plans (like TIAA-CREF, with employer matching contributions), and typically more holidays and vacation time than in the corporate world.

It's not always just about the $$$.

What writing mommy said, er, wrote -- excellent!!!

"La Familia is the primary social unit in Latino culture"

Sorry, we live in America, so in our culture sacrifice must mean a different thing than it does in yours.

She has TIAA-CREF, but here's the rub. Her child will be going to college for free, elsewhere. Her husband already has his Master's and doesn't want or need a Ph.D.

Actually, I matriculated from this university, for free, as one of my parents worked for the university hospital and that used to be a perk offered to the spouse and children of a full-time employee (after so many years). That has now gone the way of the dodo, except for those who are under the "Grandfather clause".

So the benefits are outweighed by the costs, in this instance.

Again, I outearn her by more than 10%. I receive a pretty decent match on my TSP account, but not as nice as hers. But I outearn her, and I fork over 15% or more per year, and I have the cradle-to-grave health benefits, etc.

RE my 10:53 AM post, let me add that (for FT employees, at least) health insurance for the employee and his/her family is usually included in the benefits at colleges and universities, which is definitely a valuable family-friendly benefit.

catlady

"RE my 10:53 AM post, let me add that (for FT employees, at least) health insurance for the employee and his/her family is usually included in the benefits at colleges and universities, which is definitely a valuable family-friendly benefit."

Also, doctors and lawyers in academia can usually practice in addition to teaching.

anon for this one wrote: "She has TIAA-CREF, but here's the rub. Her child will be going to college for free, elsewhere."

Your friend sounds like just a lucky exception.

I'm not clear on your implied connection between TIAA-CREF and her child attending college for free. Is TIAA-CREF somehow paying your friend's child's way through college? Or did you mean to say that her child has received a full scholarship from another institution or program? I'm not sure where "the rub" is, other than that your friend's child is one of the rare few who have no need of his/her mother's job-related dependents' tuition benefit.

While their child's full scholarship is wonderful news for your friend and her family in any event, the fact is that most folks's children aren't so fortunate. Not only that, but paying for college is a major issue in most families' financial planning (regardless of whether they pay the child's entire way, or none of it, the parents or children take out loans, or somewhere in between). So for the rest of the families, an employer-provided tuition benefit IS a big deal.

I always thought professors had a good deal. They can teach a few classes a day for a few hours and be home at night with their family. My classes were never longer than an hour and a half. The rest of the day they spent doing research, meeting with students, etc. Most of my professors took the summers off except for maybe one class. I only went to a state school but it was ranked 6th in the country for technical writing, so I think the professors were top notch.

Anyway, it looked like a good deal to me and that is why I am back in school.

Catlady,

You say tenure tracked, not know much about academia, does this mean the person has tenure or on track to get it? If the latter, I can understand losing the position; you are in the middle of a process that must be completed or you must go back to the beginning.

What about tenured professors, do you think they would have the same problem?

11:10 AM correctly states: "Also, doctors and lawyers in academia can usually practice in addition to teaching."

While numerically doctors sometimes comprise the majority of faculty at a university with a med school, they often aren't in the tenure-stream, only on multi-year contracts instead, so don't always have as much job security as their non-medical counterparts who are tenured. Generally they're in their med school's practice plan. Of course, if they leave (for whatever reason), plenty of other clinical employment opportunities are still available (non-teaching hospital, private practice, etc.).

And an academic lawyer can presumably get hired by a private law-firm, or as an in-house for a large employer, or hang out his/her own shingle in private practice.

OFF TPIC ALERT -- Does anyone else just want to leave work and sit outside in your bare feet and sip a cocktail?

I agree the school auctions are incredibly demanding -- nearly a fulltime job by themselves. However, at my school the auction raises 25% of the school's financial aid budget -- pretty gratifying work. And one of the former auction co-ordinators, a mom who'd stayed home for five years, recently parlayed her experience into a job that doubled her pre-mom salary! Not too shabby.

Also agree that tech skills -- as well as many others like Sarbanes-Oxley, internet marketing, etc -- become obsolete quickly. However, your skills can become outdated even when you work fulltime. This doesn't mean you can't refresh them. People do it every day, and it's just a reality of the world we live (and work) in today.

scarry

"I always thought professors had a good deal. "

I agree. And no dress code!

devil's advocate asks: "You say tenure tracked, not know much about academia, does this mean the person has tenure or on track to get it? If the latter, I can understand losing the position; you are in the middle of a process that must be completed or you must go back to the beginning. / What about tenured professors, do you think they would have the same problem?"

You're exactly right, tenure-track or tenure-stream means either that the faculty member already has tenure, or has a position in which s/he will be up for evaluation for tenure after a finite period of time (typically 6 years, though YMMV). It's not entirely unlike a lawyer who's an associate at a firm being considered for partner.

A tenured professor who takes leave from a position generally can expect to have it held open for two years, and if s/he doesn't return after that s/he loses the job (including the tenure). A famous case occurred with Henry Kissinger's position in the Nixon administration, when Harvard gave him a return-or-lose-it ultimatum; he chose to relinquish his tenured position in favor of government. Typically, a visiting professor will fill in while a permanent faculty member is away on temporary assignment.

I was unclear. The TIAA-CREF is very nice. But her child won't be using the academic benefit at this university. She will be going for elsewhere, for free.

She earned her M.D. in Spain, so she isn't a practicing physician here in the States (Who wants to go to medical school twice?). So that knocks out that source of additional revenue.

My point was simply that it's weird to be outearning her, despite her having far more education. And that academia can have great stuff to offer, but not for everyone.

She's working on finding something else, of course, I'm just really surprised at how little she earns given how many hours she puts into teaching and research and grant applications, etc. Honestly, I thought professors would have a higher gross salary. Academic perks are nice, but they don't pay the day-to-day bills. Not everyone's child is college material either--honor roll bumper stickers notwithstanding!

OFF TPIC ALERT -- Does anyone else just want to leave work and sit outside in your bare feet and sip a cocktail?

ABSOLUTELY!!! When are where?

OFF TOPIC ALERT -- Does anyone else just want to leave work and sit outside in your bare feet and sip a cocktail?

ABSOLUTELY!!! When are where?

Posted by: KLB SS MD | May 23, 2007 11:33 AM

NOW and how about Margharitaville :) Ahhh I can almost feel the wind and smell the salty air

What is TIAA-CREF?

Catlady: Thanks for the support. Actually I like the position I am in currently. It was not as statistically rewarding as my prior position but the flexibility is there and actually a little better. But then again, I actively choose to Mommy Track. Some of my colleagues did not fare so well. Especially if they had no intention of Mommy tracking (not Mothers, no children, or just disinterested). Our current reallocations do not allow for any fast rising stars to shine. It was an ugly situation. But hey, if were in the private sector, we would be out of a job regardless if the division fell apart due to the higher ups. That is the nice thing about government. Job security rocks.

Scarry, I can't really comment on being a full-fledged professor but I taught ONE class ONE semester at Maryland and then said "Sayonara" to that. The amount of time spent prepping is unreal, worse than with middle school by far, and I only got paid for the number of hours spent in class, not prep or grading or anything like that. At the time, I did attempt to determine how much I was making an hour, but it was too, too depressing. Granted, this was a while ago and only for one semester (and I was a nervous, first-time college teacher), but my friends who are tenured professors are not wealthy people (except for one, who came from money to begin with). While they've got some flexibility, I think it's really a case of the grass looking greener. But I would enjoy hearing from those on this blog who know better than I do.

"I always thought professors had a good deal. They can teach a few classes a day for a few hours and be home at night with their family. My classes were never longer than an hour and a half. The rest of the day they spent doing research, meeting with students, etc. Most of my professors took the summers off except for maybe one class."

In a lot of ways professors do have a good deal. They have tremendous autonomy and control over their own work. But, there are a few misconceptions here. Professors may only teach a couple of classes a day. But at most state universities, teaching comprises LESS than 50% of their job. And, teaching is not what gets someone tenure. Unless you are a REALLY bad teacher, your research is all that matters. So, for the first 6-7 years of your academic career, its all about squeezing out as much research time as possible. Many professors don't teach in the summers, but that's when they do a substantial amount of their research. It is most definitely NOT a summer break. Most faculty (especially pre-tenure) are working substantially more than 40 hours a week. They may be able to do some of that from home, but they are not just lounging about with their families.

Professors who already have tenure may have the ability to curtail their hours to a more normal level. I don't know that they would have any more ease at coming back to the workplace after a long break than a non-tenured faculty would. Furthermore, the average professor does not get tenure until the late 30s/early 40s. Waiting that long to start a family is risky.

To Scarry: I don't think it's quite as cushy a life as you depict. Would that it occasionally were, though ;-)))

But Scarry's correct that there is a degree (pun intended) of flexibility in scheduling one's work-load beyond the fixed classroom and meeting times with students, faculty and on committee work. Professors who are supposedly off work during the summer may well be spending a good bit of that time catching up on academic reading/writing, though.

Re dress codes: This can vary by institution, or even by discipline within a school, or be influenced by the local culture. On a typical day you might find a professor of law or business more dressed-up than one in, say, the humanities or social sciences. And, if you're working in a lab or clinic where it can get messy, you don't normally wear your best clothes under your lab coat -- duhh!

"I always thought professors had a good deal. They can teach a few classes a day for a few hours and be home at night with their family. My classes were never longer than an hour and a half. The rest of the day they spent doing research, meeting with students, etc. Most of my professors took the summers off except for maybe one class."

It is a good deal, if research is really what floats your boat. I hate research and, after adjuncting for my advisor while he was off doing his own research in Asia for a year, I learned that I hate teaching, as well. Well, actually, I love the lecturing; I hate the prep.

There are professors out there who, after they're granted tenure, never write another thing. They're looked down upon, though.

A lot of professors have to teach at night, too. Hard to eat dinner with the family when you're running a seminar from 6-8 Monday and Wednesday.

http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_5962165

"Marriages Working Because Wives Are"

Another interesting article . . .

To anon again: Sometimes it's not solely about the money -- beyond a certain point, of course. And your friend's case (with a child receiving a full scholarship) is the rarest of exceptions, not at all the rule; for most academics, tuition benefits for family dependents are a big deal.

Foreign-born doctors and dentists are somewhat limited in their ability to practice. I can't speak generally here, but know that at least in some cases they can practice provisionally while a clinical faculty member for up to five years in a given region of the US on a temporary basis: one individual I know of has parlayed this into a career of sorts, moving every five years to a different university in a different part of the country! Most foreign-trained clinicians either suck it up and go back to school, take a lesser job, or return to their homeland (with some good American experience under their belts).

clarification to anon at 11:39
It is the amount of research money and publications that matter most in gaining tenure. Teaching credentials only count in marginal cases. -- from this tenured faculty member (who then gave up her tenured position)

WorkingMomX

"While they've got some flexibility, I think it's really a case of the grass looking greener"

Depends on where you work. I am strictly forbidden to practice law outside of my government job.

Many lawyers who work in academia earn additional income by practising law outside of their day jobs.

Leslie,
Perhaps the quote in your post didn't give a good sense of Lori's outlook on staying home. If that's the case, the fault is with the person who chose the quote ; )

However, given her statement, it seems clear to me that she was unhappy staying home with her children when they were young. For her, it seems to have been some sort of prison sentence she had to serve or trial she needed to endure, not a freely-made choice.

Lori seems to have been toting up what she's done for her kids, with an eye to seeing how much she can then get out of them in return. I find that somewhat disturbing.

It is her attitude, not the description of her time at home with the word 'sacrifice,' which really struck a nerve with me. We ALL make sacrifices for our families. We're just not all martyrs about it.

If some of us have come to a faulty conclusion, posting some additional comments from Lori which would correct the impression some of us got from the original quote would be helpful.

Armchair mom said, "However, I had a real problem at one of my children's schools where they had a policy of never letting volunteers do "substantive work". At one point, I looked around and there were three women with Ph.D.'s cutting things out of construction paper. Go figure. That's when I discovered the joys of volunteering elsewhere."

I think Armchair mom made some great points and that there's nothing wrong with having an expectation that one's talents will be used wisely. I don't mind doing some grunt work (I shelve many, many books!), but the construction paper work is pushing it. Why not have middle or high school students do that type of work?

It's the same with the volunteer hours requirements for students these days. People often don't recognize that volunteers need to be managed and trained too and that someone on staff will have to forfeit time at another task to spend time supervising. I suspect that's why some school staff end up assigning some pretty lame tasks to volunteers (both student and parent). Organizations that make the best use of volunteers usually have a paid volunteer coordinator.

When a student (especially one younger than working age) has to do six or twelve hours of volunteer work, the organization that is accepting that volunteer likely is providing more of a service to the volunteer than the volunteer is to the organization. That's not necessarily a bad thing. After all, it takes a village. . .

That was me at noon.

educmom

"If some of us have come to a faulty conclusion, posting some additional comments from Lori which would correct the impression some of us got from the original quote would be helpful."

No, I didn't come to a faulty conclusion based on the quotes.

It's too late to go back and edit the story now.

If you really are a teacher, you know that Leslie should do her own work!

I already have a family, so that is not a concern of mine. I don't recall any night classes in my area of English at my college. I took one poetry class at night, but that was about it. Most of my professors had tenure, except for the teacher with the master's degree. She was in charge of STC and we did have those functions at night, but not all the other professors came to every function.

I like research okay, it's not my favorite thing to do, but to teach what I want to teach, I have to be in a college environment. I would like to teach more and do less research. I've always wondered though what literature professors do research on? All of my professors had a decent work/life balance. We even discussed it in class a time or two.

I looked around and there were three women with Ph.D.'s cutting things out of construction paper. Go figure. That's when I discovered the joys of volunteering elsewhere."

I think Armchair mom made some great points and that there's nothing wrong with having an expectation that one's talents will be used wisely. I don't mind doing some grunt work (I shelve many, many books!), but the construction paper work is pushing it. Why not have middle or high school students do that type of work?

I didn't know that PhDs were so above cutting anything. Sometimes the paper just needs to be cut. Would you rather the teacher do it, maybe in the evening after grading papers and answering parent emails for $40 grand a year? Middle and high school students are I think at school learning when most of this stuff goes on. They aren't employees. If you want to do statistics, then go back to work. If you want to help your school or organization, then help them. I'm pretty sure they have employees working on the "substantive stuff". So glad you aren't at my school - pathetic.

"Professors who are supposedly off work during the summer may well be spending a good bit of that time catching up on academic reading/writing, though."

Sounds pretty good to a pig farmer's daughter! Where do I sign up?

Re: Sacrifices
I find it odd when people talk able making sacrifices for their kids or family. Lori implies she sacrified a part of her career for her kids. But it was her choice to have kids and to stay home with them. Yes, it may have benefitted the kids but since she chose to have kids, i'm guessing that it benefitted her as well. My husband and I have decided not to have kids. While I know I will be missing out on a lot of great things, I still see it as a choice not as a sacrifice. Why then, is parenting a sacrifice and not a choice?

40 grand a year

Where do you live that this is all teachers make? Really, I am wondering.

"40 grand a year

Where do you live that this is all teachers make? Really, I am wondering."

I didn't write the first comment, but I'll tell you in Florida many/most teachers make less than 40 grand a year! And, I know for a fact that in Durham, NC starting teachers make in the mid-20s!

scarry

"I don't recall any night classes in my area of English at my college."

I took 4 evening English courses dealing with motion pictures, "Sherlock Holmes and the Movies", The Movies of Mae West and W.C. Fields", etc.

No books to buy or study, multiple choice exams, no mandatory attendance. Easy, easy A.

Average teacher salary nationally is $47,602 and in Virgina it is $45,377. An elementary teacher with 20 years of experience has a median salary of $53K. This is from the American Federation of Teachers. Most teachers I know work during the summer teaching summer school to help make ends meet or take courses to keep up to date on their skills.

"Middle and high school students are I think at school learning when most of this stuff goes on. They aren't employees."

Well, the parent volunteers aren't employees either. Middle and high school students get sent out into the world after school to do all kinds of "community service hours." Why can't some of them do their hours for the schools? The work could be left for them to do.

BTW, I have used scissors and paste while volunteering (helped with decorating a bulletin board). Of course, I only have a Master's. ;-) I don't mind doing it in a pinch, but if that was the main use of my volunteer time, I would go elsewhere in the community. My time is limited (you can't take a pre-schooler with you to volunteer). I don't think it's pathetic for me to assess my own skills and use them where I think I can be of the most help.

OFF TOPIC but wow -- Joe Paterno (coach of the Penn State football team) shows true leadership. (Summary -- a number of his players got into a fight in the off season so he is making the entire team clean the stadium after home football games next season)

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaaf/news?slug=dw-paterno052207&prov=yhoo&type=lgns&expire=1

But just try finding out how much JoePa earns. It's like a state secret even though Penn State is a state-related school, so newspapers have had to take the case to court to see if they can find out.

"I've always wondered though what literature professors do research on?"

Critical theory. There's a lot of critical theory research and work going on in graduate English departments; my husband has done nothing but study it for the past two years. Marx, Foucault, Derrida et al. At the graduate level, you are expected to have a solid grounding in the actual literature and are now expected to start contributing to the scholarly debate about what a group's literature says about its position in the larger society.

And all of his classes except for two have been at night.

"I like research okay, it's not my favorite thing to do, but to teach what I want to teach, I have to be in a college environment."

Unless you're thinking of teaching at a community college or a limited number of liberal arts colleges, this is going to be a serious problem for you. Colleges hire on the basis of your research. They expect you to keep it up while you're teaching.

Everyone thinks that they are such a valuable volunteer. YOu cannot just walk into an organzation and expect to do the most substantive work a couple of hours a week. #1 - sometimes there are confidentially issues, and they can't allow every Tom, Dick and Mary access to sensitive information. #2 - there are often procedures and/or software/technical issues - they don't want to train a gillion people for a couple of hours a week who could quit on a dime. #3 - there are potential liability issues as well.

It seems like some people expect to be treated like the Queen of well, Sheba when they deign to bestown their valuable, skill laden time on an organization. Sometimes in volunteering, just like the real world, you need to prove yourself. If you don't want to do the kind of work that they say they need done then DON'T DO IT. Everyone would be happier if you did something else with your super valuable time.

"I've always wondered though what literature professors do research on?"

Technically, literature professors don't do "research".

"I've always wondered though what literature professors do research on?"

Did you ask them?

I will probably try to teach at a state school. I don't think research will be a problem for me, I just like teaching more. I am half way through my masters so I have a while to worry about it.

All my master's classes are at night, but my undergrad classes were not.

Did you ask them?

I thought I just did.

"I will probably try to teach at a state school. I don't think research will be a problem for me, I just like teaching more."

This is truly scarry. Hw could this ever happen? The mind boggles.

Flatly stating that Technically, literature professors don't do "research" isn't a question, it's dissing.

"Average teacher salary nationally is $47,602 and in Virgina it is $45,377. An elementary teacher with 20 years of experience has a median salary of $53K."

Ok...so this means that approximately half of all teachers in VA earn less than $45k. What is the average salary for a teacher who's worked for 10 years? For 5 years? What percentage of teachers in the U.S. have been working for 20 years or more?

"In the post, it looked like I was the one who said something about babies/children needing meat, but it was a quote from the NY Times article."

I didn't really think you came off that way. What I thought was that you were simply giving us some food for thought. The family that was feeding their infant vegan food was using veganism as a cover for abuse. Even we vegans and vegetarians are not blind to the fact that humans are mammals, and as infants, need milk (human breast milk, if possible) to survive. Thanks for the clarification, though.

I too am curious to find why people jump at the word "sacrifice." Mothers DO sacrifice for their kids, as do fathers. But they should. Parenting means sacrificing and giving up other things that you COULD have if you didn't have children. You can't always have both. What's wrong with sacrifice? It's not a dirty word, just a fact of life.

I never plan to opt out (careful with the "nevers," Laura/Mona), and I always planned on just using my maternity leave if/when I have children. BF surprised me with "you have to take a year off after they're born, and you'll be older, so you'll probably have to take two years off and have them close together." WHAT?!?! A year off for maternity leave? That just seems excessive. I thought maybe a month to heal, then he could stay home for paternity leave. Per child. That's it. I don't think I could handle being at home that long--it's just not in my personality. And I don't think we could afford to live as comfortably as we would like on only one salary (here is where all you "I sacrificed for my kids, you should too! How dare you put money first!" people tsk-tsk me).

I know there have got to be many mothers out there who weren't lucky enough for extended maternity leave and had to go to work soon after giving birth. How did you handle it? Do you wish you could have had more time at home, or were you happy with your arrangement? What is the standard length of maternity leave?

(Luckily, after spending half a day at the aquarium surrounded by screaming kids, he mentioned that he might be okay with just one. :-))

"Average teacher salary nationally is $47,602 and in Virgina it is $45,377. An elementary teacher with 20 years of experience has a median salary of $53K."

Definition of MEDIAN

me·di·an

3. Arithmetic, Statistics. the middle number in a given sequence of numbers, taken as the average of the two middle numbers when the sequence has an even number of numbers: 4 is the median of 1, 3, 4, 8, 9.

So is it median or average?

This just in: Hugh Laurie (House, Bertie Wooster) is getting knighted!

This is truly scarry. Hw could this ever happen? The mind boggles.

What are you talking about?

"YOu cannot just walk into an organzation and expect to do the most substantive work a couple of hours a week."

I don't. I'm a professional research librarian. I volunteer to shelve books at a school library. People paid to do this task in public libraries don't need a high school diploma. Book shelving is not a difficult or highly-skilled task, but it does need to be done with care. Other parent volunteers do need to be trained to do it. It doesn't take much training for a small library, but there's a reason most public libraries don't want you to re-shelve your own books. You criticize because I don't want to use the bulk of my volunteer time to do paper cut-outs. I can't draw the line at how I use my time?

If the school custodian calls in sick, should the parent volunteers clean the bathrooms? Would you? Actually, I have cleaned the bathrooms in an office during a custodial union strike. The professional women in the office decided we would take turns and not ask the administrative support staff to pitch in (though some of the admins did volunteer to help as they were using the bathrooms too).

"I volunteer to shelve books at a school library. People paid to do this task in public libraries don't need a high school diploma."

I know. I shelved books in the school library when I was in the 4th grade. It is far from rocket science.

Just to clarify on that last post--the women cleaned only the women's bathroom. I have no idea how the men in the office dealt with that particular situation.

This reminds me of the unemployment line bit in History of the World Part 1. Had to find it:

Dole Office Clerk: Occupation?
Comicus: Stand-up philosopher.
Dole Office Clerk: What?
Comicus: Stand-up philosopher. I coalesce the vapors of human existence into a viable and meaningful comprehension.
Dole Office Clerk: Oh, a *bulls#!7* artist!
Comicus: Hmmmmmm...
Dole Office Clerk: Did you bulls#!7 last week?
Comicus: No.
Dole Office Clerk: Did you try to bulls#!7 last week?
Comicus: Yes!
.....

"Average teacher salary nationally is $47,602 and in Virgina it is $45,377. An elementary teacher with 20 years of experience has a median salary of $53K."

Ok...so this means that approximately half of all teachers in VA earn less than $45k. What is the average salary for a teacher who's worked for 10 years? For 5 years? What percentage of teachers in the U.S. have been working for 20 years or more?

Posted by: | May 23, 2007 12:53 PM
No an average is if you summed up the salaries for all VA teachers and divided it by the number of teachers in VA.
The median (probably the more insightful statistic) is what you just said. That 50% of the VA teachers make above the median and 50% make below the median. States rarely post a median figure. Probably because they don't know the statistical difference between a mean and a median. Means are hard to interpret because they are often compromised by very large and very low numbers in the data.

"I will probably try to teach at a state school. I don't think research will be a problem for me, I just like teaching more."

This is truly scarry. Hw could this ever happen? The mind boggles.

Hopefully, she won't have to teach idiots like you or your children.

I shelved books in the school library when I was in the 4th grade. It is far from rocket science.

Posted by: | May 23, 2007 01:15 PM

Maybe more like brain surgery?

Mona -- I believe standard maternity leave ("to heal" as you put it) is 6 weeks for a vaginal birth and 8 weeks for a C-section. Of course, some women go back sooner, and others take quite awhile to recover. It depends upon the difficulty of the birth and, frankly, what kind of sleeper your new child is! The women I know that went back to work after less than 6 weeks were all on child #2, #3, or #4 -- they had experience in managing those difficult first weeks and were more prepared.

I prepped for my maternity leave (I took 12 weeks) by purchasing 6 novels, and worried that I'd run out of reading material halfway through my leave.

I didn't read any of them. My house looked like a tornado hit it for the first 3-4 weeks. DD slept for 90 minutes to 2 hours tops before demanding to eat again. Honestly, that first week I was happy if I had time to shower. Of course, I'd had an emergency C-section and subsequently developed every breast-feeding complication known to man, so my experience may be more extreme than most. DH did say home with us for the first 2 weeks (and did a tremendous amount of work -- I literally never changed a diaper the entire two weeks), then my Mom visted for a week and helped out some. Even with that help, I can't imagine going back to work after a month. I was just starting to get a routine going and dig through the pile of baby gifts in the dining room after a month.

Lots of moms told me I had unrealistic expectations, and I didn't believe any of them, so I don't expect you to believe what you hear from me or others on this blog. I guess some things just have to be experienced to be believed! I would take advantage of as much maternity leave as your employer offers once you're at that point.

FYI, I agree that a year seems too long to stay home if you want to work and are eager to get back. By the end of 12 weeks, I was ready to go back. DD was finally "sleeping through the night" (read, sleeping from midnight to 5:30am) and we'd figured each other out. I had a sitter I was comfortable with. The house had been dug out and we'd found a cleaning lady. I'd hit the treadmill.

But don't get complacent -- just when you think you've got it all figured out, they go and change, and you're back to square one!

Just my 2 cents.

Mona,
It wasn't necessarily the healing after childbirth, but the exhaustion of being a new parent that got me. I didn't feel like a "normal" person until about 6 weeks after giving birth. At 8 weeks I started doing some part-time work from home and by 12 weeks went back to work (albeit I only worked a 30 hour week at the time). My DH took off 4 weeks (from about weeks 3-7) to be home with us. It was really great to be home together for that time period.

Chris

"This reminds me of the unemployment line bit in History of the World Part 1. Had to find it:"

Features two greats: Bea Arthur & Mel Brooks!

DId they give you a trophy for being the 9th-best parttime book shelver too>

Mona, they have done studies on lengths of maternity leave and leave prior to birth. Actually for prior to birth, the more education a women has the longer she works up to the delivery date. The opposite is true for maternity leave following the birth. The more education a women has the longer the maternity leave. Here is the theory. Educated women generally have non physical type jobs. So the employment duties are less taxing on the body during the later stages in pregnancy. Following the birth, the reason educated women tend to take more time off is simply finances. Educated women have more cash reserves and better paid maternity benefits. I have not heard of many educated women taking less then 8 weeks. Unless your husband is going to take care of the baby (or another friend or relative) you would be hard pressed to find day care for a 4 week old baby. The more select day cares often won't take a baby before 12 weeks in this area. Some will take an 8 week baby. Don't know of any that would take a 4 week child. Also depending on if you have C-section, you won't be cleared by your doctor to go back to work till 6 weeks. I felt great after 4 but could not go back technically till 6 weeks. Even with all this, you may surprise yourself and not be ready to leave your infant any time soon. I was bored at first but by the end of maternity leave, it was a huge struggle to leave my daughter.

Vegas Mom, thanks for the info. Your story is making my uterus want to shrivel up and disappear! But I don't doubt that it's as difficult for most moms as you say. I'm sure I'm just nursing my Superman complex right now, and I'll change my tune if/when I give birth. 12 weeks seems like a good compromise to me, and I'm glad it worked for you. Right now I THINK I'll be champing at the bit to get back to work (much like right now I'm champing at the bit to start law school), but if/when I give birth, I'll probably want to stay at home a bit longer than I say now--but definitely not a year. What's he thinking?

And I'd still like to know how those minimum-wage-earning single moms who don't have maternity leave do it...but they're probably not on this blog.

Is he saying you CAN stay home for up to a year if you want, or that he EXPECTS you to? There's a difference.

The point was that I'm willing to do some simple tasks in a volunteer position. You're right--shelving is far from rocket science, but if it's done carelessly library users can't find things.

What I object to is the implication that a SAHM volunteering time is selfish to decide that some tasks aren't worth the time. Armchair mom brought up excellent points about volunteering in the context of on-ramping. Someone slammed her for wanting to "get something" out of volunteering.

I don't expect that many working parents would be thrilled to carve out time to volunteer to cut out construction paper either. As I said earlier, organizations that best manage volunteer hours recognize the need to organize that time. I think those organizations have the right to expect a certain commitment from the volunteer too. It's not worth it for an organization to invest time training a volunteer who cannot commit.

I think most people "get something" out of volunteering, even if it's as simple as a warm fuzzy feeling about helping someone else.

Re: Teaching Salaries ... Earlier this year, our local NPR station reported on a strike at Philadelphia Community College. It was reported that the salary for a full time professor with PhD in hand was $38,000 a year. That's really sad. No wonder the faculty went on strike!

Oh Mona, I didn't mean to scare you. It's hard, but it's manageable. You just need to set the bar lower, LOL.

I will say that for me, those first couple of weeks were just H-E-Double-Hockey-Sticks.

But then she smiled. That changed everything. I know it was probably just gas, but getting feedback made all the difference. It got easier managing the fatigue and craziness after that.

volunteer is just what it says. A choice. So the volunteer has the right to say no to certain tasks that he/she does not want to preform. On the other hand, if having a volunteer is more on the paid staff then the return, the organization has the right to say no to a volunteer request. As far as cutting up construction paper, I know a number of working moms that do that sort of task because they can take the work home and do it on their free time. It also is a no brainer that does not need any training or outside instructors. They get the good feeling of volunteering, the school gets all the little shapes or whatever they wanted, the non working parents can volunteer at times that are best for them, and the kids get what they need. Everyone is happy.

BTW, I have used scissors and paste while volunteering (helped with decorating a bulletin board). Of course, I only have a Master's. ;-)

I have BS in BA, so I was only allowed to watch people using the scissors!

Marian, did you catch the CTOTD yesterday?

Foamgnome astutely observed: "[The volunteers] get the good feeling of volunteering, the school gets... whatever they wanted, the non working parents can volunteer at times that are best for them, and the kids get what they need. Everyone is happy."

But Foamy, if we've learned nothing else from this blog-board, it's that the trolls loathe nothing more than win-win situations. They live to stir up dissension where sweet reason ought to prevail.

Good points too, foamgnome. I expect it's hard for a school to turn away parent volunteers, and schools probably don't have the resources to manage a large number of volunteers. A school that has take-home volunteer work sounds pretty well-organized.

When I applied for a volunteer position using my professional skills, it was like any other application process. I submitted my resume and interviewed. It wasn't the most rigorous interview I've ever been through, but it was a serious one. There was a minimum time commitment (it couldn't really have been enforced, but the organization appealed to one's sense of professionalism). I certainly didn't leave the interview thinking that my acceptance was a given.

Fred, for those of us who missed it, could you re-post yesterday's CTOTD?

Because I have certain specific education and specific experience, I have found it not difficult at all to find work. I was so surprised it didn't take any time at all - because I had planned for it to take months, yet I had a job in a matter of weeks!

As for volunteering, there are plenty of organizations that would take whatever you'd be willing to give, however you'd be willing to give it.

I was home for 3 1/2 years and by the time I was home for that long, I was itching for something more. The time went by in seconds, and my kids are wonderful, but we're all better off with mom working :)

To Mona, I think he just doesn't realize that most women don't stay home that long. I think he expects me to because he figures every woman does. His sister is due in July; I'll be interested to see if he has any opinions on her leave choices (though it may not apply, she wants to stay home full time and her husband says she "can't"). I probably COULD stay home a year, but I don't think I will want to. Whether I CAN or not, really will depend on our salaries, debt, and savings at the time.

My worst volunteer experience was delivering food baskets one holiday. There were 45 food baskets. There were suppose to be 8 volunteers plus an organizer. Guess how many showed up to deliver them? One. Who? Foamgnome. Even though I really enjoyed delivering them to the needy families. It was an awful lot of work for one person and it took me 5 times as long to do it. But then again, volunteerism is a choice. Some people honor their obligations more then others.

Fred

"I have BS in BA, so I was only allowed to watch people using the scissors!"

Same here. I have a big, big bag of B.S degree.

How dare they squander your talents! Don't they know that you have been working on an exciting, fresh translation of Proust's Remembrance of Things Past since Sputnik?

I went back to work when DD was 2 1/2. Partly because my benefits severance pay and unemployment ran out but partly because I thought she needed more friends
and stimulation than I could provide.

I have also tried to not give her guilt trips. At her current age she has asked about when she was young. The first year of her life was difficult on us all.

She was up at least 18 hours a day and most of it crying not eating, peeing or pooping. I just tell her she cried because babies do and she wanted her Mommy a lot. I said that is why she is so sweet and loving today (but fortunately
much more independent).

I went back to work when DD was 2 1/2. Partly because my benefits severance pay and unemployment ran out but partly because I thought she needed more friends
and stimulation than I could provide.

I have also tried to not give her guilt trips. At her current age she has asked about when she was young. The first year of her life was difficult on us all.

She was up at least 18 hours a day and most of it crying not eating, peeing or pooping. I just tell her she cried because babies do and she wanted her Mommy a lot. I said that is why she is so sweet and loving today (but fortunately
much more independent).

"" WHAT?!?! A year off for maternity leave? That just seems excessive. I thought maybe a month to heal, then he could stay home for paternity leave."

MONA you might be better suited just to buy a couple of dogs. I think you have no idea the level of commitment and sacrifice required for raising children.

Cultural Tidbit of the Day.
(repost from yesterday)

I mentioned that I have some paintings in my house. I just took inventory and post hurricane I have only 1 painting now. But, it is of a pueblo of the Acoma Indian Tribe in New Mexico.

What makes this place and the Acoma tribe so interesting is that the pueblo is longest continually inhabited city in the United States. This city may have been inhabited since 1150 A.D.

Posted by: Fred | May 22, 2007 05:21 PM

BTW, I do not know who the artist is but it is a local woman who obviously visted the pueblo once.

pATRICK, I keep hoping I mature in time. Clearly I am pretty selfish and not ready for children at all. But I'm assuming once I'm in my thirties, things will change. That's what I hope, anyway. We'll see, won't we?

Did your wife take off that long after she gave birth? Oh, wait, I bet your wife doesn't work, does she? Correct me if I'm wrong...

I may not be allowed to use scissors as a volunteer but I did shelve books while at college as my work-study assignment! $1.70hr!

Thanks, Marian. THat's what I'm talking about -- an organization that requires a commitment from both the volunteers and the organization, that provides a job description, and that demands a certain level of professionalism on both parts.

I'm not saying that my time is "oh so valuable" and I spend lots of time doing mundane stuff (like raking leaves at my kid's school). What I AM saying is that this particular school was paying a professional grantwriter when there were numerous people in the parent community who had these skills that would have done it for free. And in at least one case, a "dad" who was a website designer was asked to design a website, while a "mom" who was a website designer was handed, you guessed it, scissors and construction paper.

Good afternoon, pATRICK. Please check out my vegan chocolate cake recipe, posted at 10:38 AM today with a special shout-out just to you! It's an easy recipe, and the cake turns out so yummy that you really can't tell there are no eggs