First, at last!

Second -- ha!

Third... I hope!

OT from yesterday:

atb:

I don't know about where you live, but we are told to call 911 EVERY TIME we want to contact the police. Every single time. Even if it's something that happened two days ago that I need to report. EVERY TIME. The police tell us that, the civic association tells us that, the city council people tell us that.

If you want to report anything *anything* and need to speak with the police - call 911 - not the local precinct.

That's why I called 911. We are told to by everyone.

Atlmom,

I bet that kept up up all night didn't it? You just had to get back on this blog and say something.

911 is for emergencies. EMERGENCIES.

You don't call 911 when you need a Band-aid.

Actually, I have been first many times. I am first in the heart of Frieda and she is first in mine. Although, she did say last night if it were a choice between my car and her, I would choose the car. I said emphatically no! She said how about your boat and me? I said that is a different story.

Focus, please, people!

Leslie, this is an interesting topic. My husband and I feel like we have a strong 'partnership' in our marriage. Even after working in our business together for 9 years...our marriage has never been stronger. We were both independant before we got married (I was 26 and he was 32) and continue to support each other's need for solo activities and interests (i.e. he needs his 'guy' time and I need my 'girl' time). Having 2 kids certainly makes it harder, but I have found honest communication has been the #1 positive factor in our ever-growing relationship. I also saw that was what was missing in parent's marriage, which ended in divorce after 16 years.

The key to a long lasting marriage is Valium.

or Wellburtrin!

I am going to be happy forever since I plan to work and have no kids after I get married! WOOHOO!

Just kidding, sort of, that is my plan, but I thinkt that, as others have said, the issue is communication and both working together - my fiance and I always talk about how we are a team and look at things that way - as someone who used to be like Leslie I guess and give and give and give, it's so refreshing to have a teammate to spend my life with!

Happy Friday!

To some extent, I believe that people make a choice to be happy with what they've got, and then they are happy. It's sort of the "wanting what you have instead of what you don't have" thing. I was at home for four years before returning to work within the last 18 months, and I don't see a discernable difference in my husband's and my relationship -- and neither does he (we just talked about this recently). Things are more chaotic, but we knew that would be the case.

Childless couples: well, I have to say that if a couple is well matched, and doesn't have children, I can see how in a study they would appear to be happier than couples with children. Life before children is all about you and your spouse/significant other and what the two of you want to do together or separately. Life after kids is completely different, and as we've seen on this blog, there are many who just feel like they don't get enough time to pursue their own interests once kids enter the mix. I do think with childless couples, it's a case of not knowing what you're missing. I DO NOT MEAN that childless couples aren't truly happy, because I think there are many kinds of happiness, and a person just needs to find their own. Hope this is clear, probably not as I haven't yet had my morning cuppa.

Actually, Slach Dot Com is wrong. We just had a police officer in our town urging us to use 911 any time we need the police. He said calls to the non-emergency number just get routed through 911, anyway.

On topic, I find it surprising that marriages without kids are happier. At the risk of sounding schmoopy, having a child has brought so much happiness into our lives that it's kind of like the bar has been raised across the board. Though I loved my husband before we had DD, having a child with him has made that connection even deeper. And there are few things sweeter than seeing him cuddle DD on his lap and read to her.

As far as whether it's possible to have equality in a one-income marriage, I think it is (of course, I'm biased). The key is to approach things as a team, and for each partner to recognize the other's contribution.

"* In 1980 as well as 2000, childless couples were generally happier than those with children.
"

That's been true since Adam & Eve. Look how bad Cain turned out!

I firmly believe that DC area housing prices will fall 40%-60% before all is said and done. People will be talking about real estate like its the plague.

"On topic, I find it surprising that marriages without kids are happier"

I'm not. I know many childless couples who are quite happy in long term marriages.

Studies also show that couples with children tend to have better marriages when their children leave home.

And I agree, happiness is largely a matter of choice.

I think we are over-analyzing these statistics a bit. Married couples that don't work and have no kids see a lot less of each other, and when they do see each other there is less to fight about. Its that simple...

jj

"Married couples that don't work and have no kids see a lot less of each other,"

How's that?

I didn't mean to suggest that childless couples are unhappy. I certainly don't think that's true. I'm just saying that having DD has made us much happier overall.

Happy before kid, happy with the kid, but now I am a little nervous about how the new kid is going to change the dynamics of the house!

However, I can't picture myself without my daughter and neither can my husband. I think happiness is relative to the people or person involved. Some people are happy without kids, but I would not be one of them. Are working no kid marriages happier? Who can judge that? There is no statistic in the world that can judge my marriage or how me and my husband feel about each other or our children.

The reason that childless couples seem happier is that they don't have the conflicts and tensions that having to bring up children can bring to a marriage. Think about two people who may have even slightly different ideas of how to bring up children and you have friction. While clearly children bring so much joy and purpose to life, they also bring fatigue, sacrifice, and conflict as well (add in meddling in-laws and I'm sure it gets worse).

But when both parents have jobs/careers, both have at least close to the same "power" in the marriage (perhaps not fully equal). Economics can be the driving force in decision-making and a feeling of purpose and independence. I'm not knocking the stay at home parent option--it's just true for most that he or she with the money, has the power. And if you add in an educated stay at home spouse without (or diminished) power, there can be tensions.

And Leslie, I don't quite understand what you mean by "selfish". I think you are falling into the trap of ascribing a negative term to something that is probably not negative at all. Expecting (or demanding, your word) equality, time for yourself or whatever you meant by it is not selfish.

NewSAHM,

Actually Slach Dot Com IS correct. Small towns can afford to have ES deployed for most things but for bigger cities and localities 911 is an emergency service and should be used for such.

'I do think with childless couples, it's a case of not knowing what you're missing.'

I think you have this entirely wrong - it may be for some, but for most, there are reasons why they do not have children - they know they are not well-suited for parenthood, etc. I may be missing out on some things, but I know that I have other things because I don't have kids. I think that the strength it takes to hold firm to one's choices and instincts deserves some credit. Personally, I think our marriage is better because we don't have kids - if we did, they would be my job entirely considering my husband's job and how many hours it requires. There's no way I could make up the difference in pay if my husband was to take a less demanding job and I did find a job. With kids, we would need the money (we do without the kids - tons of student loans) so its just a vicious cycle.

I don't think its fair to say that people who do not have children don't know what they are missing - because most of see it on a regular basis and truly, I haven't felt that I have missed out on anything by not having to to change diapers for two years and stay up all night with a fussy kid and have to worry all the time about things about the kid. Really - why add more stress to my life? We KNOW.

Oh YEAH-- what working mom said. when there are kids in the picture everything just becomes so much bigger. Yes there is more happiness, but there are so many more things to get stressed out over. i was nearly in tears a few days ago because my husband's reaction to the news that we were having a girl baby didn't meet my expectations. If it had just been that he wasn't as thrilled about me or something I did, I can take that in stride-- I'm a big girl, ya know? But when it's your child, you get this momma bear reaction-- and I know that my husband has had the same with regard to this perception of my faults as a mother.

The faults of your spouse become far more important when you become parents. That adds stress.

also, perhaps really happy couples don't have kids because how could it make them any happier? That was may mind frame when we got married and it took a bit of persuading by my husband to convince me that things can get even better. I'm so glad he did! Life is harder but so much sweeter.

Working Mom -- You and I are in agreement that "selfish" is not a bad thing, but I have to say there is A LOT of pressure on women to be unselfish, sacrificing, understanding, giving, subservient wives...always thinking first of others, neglecting their own needs, etc. Our society has an ideal of a "perfect wife" and I see women who give up too much of themselves to try to make their husbands happy, with results that are disastrous for women, kids and even husbands. Because in my experience, this kind of stereotype is not necessarily what men want in a wife.

'I do think with childless couples, it's a case of not knowing what you're missing.'

This kind of comment really ticks me off because for most people, the decision to not have children is arrived at just as seriously as the decision to have children is for others - the decision to have them should be the biggest decision one ever makes - more so than marriage, even, as the well-being of a completely dependent human being is at stake. Both decisions offer pros and cons - and believe me, there are a lot of people I see out there who never should have had children with the way that they take care of them and treat them and so forth.
May I have regrets about not having children? I most likely will, at some point, but I know I would have regrets if I did. Please - don't ever say that to someone again. Its just not very nice and it makes your choice to have children a superior one - which it isn't. Both decisions are perfectly valid.

I agree with working mother's 8:29 am post. I'm not sure there's a "happier" for childless marriages, but certainly there's one less (very big) thing to disagree about. I also agree that the SAHP has one "inequality" inherent in the situation, that the SAHP is not bringing in money by definition. I suspect this is the source of many a disagreement, in part because often the WOHP does not fully appreciate what the SAHP does, because let's face it, we're all conditioned to focus on the need for money. Having said that, I do believe you can have an "egalitarian marriage" even when there is one SAHP. But it takes lots of work on both sides. Several of my friends have been very successful.

Regarding Leslie's question about the key to a long-lasting marriage: I believe that appreciating the things your spouse does (and communicating it), agreeing to disagree at times, and recognizing that nobody is perfect are a few things central to happy and long-lasting marriages. Of course, all these things relate back to the true key, good communication.

Not to fuel the fire, but childless people really have no idea what it's like to have kids. I used to think that was just parents poo-pahing me, being condescending, but it's actually true! I've never felt the kind of love I have for my DD, and that includes the love I have for the nieces I'm very close with, my parents, and my husband.

I can easily see how married people who have an equal share in the work and don't have kids, both by choice, are very happy. It sounds great!

I agree that happiness is, in many ways, a choice. I know happy and unhappy married couples, with and without kids. The unhappy people seem to complain about everything but they always complain to someone besides their spouse.

'I do think with childless couples, it's a case of not knowing what you're missing.'

Some folks are afraid to have kids - for reasons other than the fear of the two-parent, healthy kids in the suburbs lifestyle you seem to assume. Yes you do make many sacrifices for your kids but from the outside but your happiness is not too hard to understand either. Every once in a blue moon you get parents on this board coping with serious health issues and kids who may never be able to care for themselves. Were any of the parents here ever scared that they couldn't handle the real adversity their kid might face? and I am not talking about junior being rejected from harvard...

There is a difference between childless couples not knowing what it is like to have kids - I think no one would disagree with that, but statements that such couples do not know "what they are missing" tend to have a more judgmental ring to them, which is where the fighting may begin this morning as this blog travels off topic rather early!

That's right America- Stop having kids and you will be happy! Look at Europe! Being overrun by people who have publicly stated they want to take over is fun!

Disclaimer: I'm not saying have kids if you don't want to, I'm just saying I think it's large scale social engineering to push not having kids, whether for happiness, global warming, or any other excuse.

"and believe me, there are a lot of people I see out there who never
should have had children"

For some strange reason, the term "Nazi" just popped into my head.

I knew that saying "not knowing what you're missing" would irritate people. Oh, well. Can't please everyone. But please understand that I don't mean everyone should have kids or that you can't be truly happy unless you have them. I mean that for me (and frankly I'm paraphrasing for every parent I've ever spoken to on the same subject), I had NO IDEA before my first child came into my life about the sheer joy I could find in another person's mere existence on the planet. It is similar to falling in love with your spouse/significant other, but exponentially so much greater that it almost does not compare.

I do not say and I do not believe that a person must have children to be happy. Like I said in my original post, there are different kinds of happiness. I'm sorry if you took it to mean that happiness with kids is superior to happiness without them.

NewSAHM,

Actually Slach Dot Com IS correct. Small towns can afford to have ES deployed for most things but for bigger cities and localities 911 is an emergency service and should be used for such

No, that is not what he said. He said it is for emergencies period, so he isn't right either.

I guess it depends on how long you have been married and the age of the children. My children have given me my greatest joy, but also my biggest disappointments and heartache. DH and I were living together/married for 7 years before children who are now in late adolescence. We were happy with no children, we were happy with small children, now we fight a lot, and most of it is about the children. I love my children dearly, but sometimes I wish I hadn't had them.

Chris

"I'm not saying have kids if you don't want to, I'm just saying I think it's large scale social engineering to push not having kids, whether for happiness, global warming, or any other excuse."

Dr. Laura, and all of the other ultra-conservative republicans, would disagree with that definition of a happy marriage. They believe the husband should be "the man"...go out and earn the money and provide for the family. And the little woman should stay home, raise the kids, give her hubby "guy time" with a smile on her face, shower and change her clothes and put on make-up before her hubby comes home (provide "badaboom" whenever her hubby wants it), make dinner, take care of hte kids...etc. That is the definition of a happy marriage from that side of the political aisle.

This blog has jumped the shark. Same thing has been said over and over and over with declining quality.

I really hope my life never comes to wishing I didn't have my daughter. Of course, that's easy to say when my greatest joy is waking her up in the morning and seeing the world's brightest smile. That sounds like some family counseling is in order. I wonder how families come to this... So sad...

BTW, we have both worked forever, no SAHP. I don't know if our marriage will survive all the tension. Kids are almost out the door to college, and I hope that we can resurrect what we used to have once the kids are gone.

I am sorry and I don't mean this in a snarky way, but unless you are in charge of the care of children, you have no idea what it is like to have them. You can look to your friends changing diapers or hear them tell you about the latest round of an ear infection, but you really don't know.

If you don't want them good for you, but you have no idea what it is really like to have them.

Tedious Texas guy --

I am really looking forward to your guest column!!!!

I guess it depends on how long you have been married and the age of the children. My children have given me my greatest joy, but also my biggest disappointments and heartache. DH and I were living together/married for 7 years before children who are now in late adolescence. We were happy with no children, we were happy with small children, now we fight a lot, and most of it is about the children. I love my children dearly, but sometimes I wish I hadn't had them.

Posted by: anon for this | May 25, 2007 09:00 AM
________

Late adolescence is just rough on parents...and it is rough on the marriage. But you need to make sure you and your husband stick together! Soon, your kids will be out on their own...doing, either to your happiness (or chagrin), their own thing. And it's you and your husband who will be growing old together. So, make sure you get out together, that you get weekends away together...and that you do things together that don't involve talking about (or fighting about), the kids. This is just a stage...and IT WILL PASS!!!!! Have faith. And when your kids are in their 20's, you will like them more than you do now. I promise! Hang in there :)

I guess it depends on how long you have been married and the age of the children. My children have given me my greatest joy, but also my biggest disappointments and heartache. DH and I were living together/married for 7 years before children who are now in late adolescence. We were happy with no children, we were happy with small children, now we fight a lot, and most of it is about the children. I love my children dearly, but sometimes I wish I hadn't had them.

Posted by: anon for this | May 25, 2007 09:00 AM
________

Late adolescence is just rough on parents...and it is rough on the marriage. But you need to make sure you and your husband stick together! Soon, your kids will be out on their own...doing, either to your happiness (or chagrin), their own thing. And it's you and your husband who will be growing old together. So, make sure you get out together, that you get weekends away together...and that you do things together that don't involve talking about (or fighting about), the kids. This is just a stage...and IT WILL PASS!!!!! Have faith. And when your kids are in their 20's, you will like them more than you do now. I promise! Hang in there :)

Father of 4 -

Can you honestly say that every parent you have ever met has been a good parent? I didn't say that some people should have been stopped from having kids - I just said that there are some parents who are not doing the kids any favors. That's all I meant.

"I firmly believe that DC area housing prices will fall 40%-60% before all is said and done. People will be talking about real estate like its the plague."

40%-60%?! A little drastic don't you think? How did you come up with a figure like that, i'm curious to know. DC has always been an expensive place, I don't see why things would change all of a sudden now.

Chris, I agree:

*it's large scale social engineering to push not having kids, whether for happiness, global warming, or any other excuse. *

I'm sure you would agree that it's also social engineering to push couples to reproduce, whether for happiness, population replacement, economic support or any other reason.

I say that as someone who might regret her choice in husband, but has NEVER regretted her decision to have children.

A few other posters have said it, but it bears repeating: You are as happy as you choose to be.

Besides, if those DINKs didn't exist, who would we all envy?

In my experience, if you can ask for what you wan and need from a partner who respects you and can ask for what he/she want and needs, you're in a solid relationship that will deepen over time. And that can ride out the complexities and strains of children, stepchildren, wicked puppies and anything else life throws at you...

In my experience, if you can ask for what you want and need from a partner who respects you and can ask for what he/she want and needs, you're in a solid relationship that will deepen over time. And that can ride out the complexities and strains of children, stepchildren, wicked puppies and anything else life throws at you...

WorkingMomX

Are your kids teenagers yet?

"I really hope my life never comes to wishing I didn't have my daughter. Of course, that's easy to say when my greatest joy is waking her up in the morning and seeing the world's brightest smile. That sounds like some family counseling is in order. I wonder how families come to this... So sad...

Posted by: atb | May 25, 2007 09:04 AM"

You're right - it is easy to say when the children are young and bring nothing but joy. After your children are grown you may have a different perspective. I was in your shoes at one time, but things can change drastically. I hope it's better for you, and this time in my life may turn out to be like childbirth - after it's over, you forget some of the pain :).

Saying that having a baby has brought your marriage to the pinnacle of happiness is definitely the first sign of people who have just embarked upon the long hard slog of parenting.

Kids grind you down and spit you out. They are relentless. They eat, poop, interfere, interrupt, you have to train them ENDLESSLY, the stakes are so damn high and you know it--so the stresses & strains of differences in philosophy increase exponentially. It's nothing personal, they're not out to get you, but they have no idea, nor do they care, how hard & expensive it is to raise them and prepare them to be independant adults.

I love my kids, and they are doing well in life, but quite honestly, they have NOT been good for my marriage.

I don't doubt that most marriages with two incomes and no kids will fare much better in the long run.

"Having said that, I do believe you can have an "egalitarian marriage" even when there is one SAHP. But it takes lots of work on both sides."

I don't think it takes lots of work. It takes a comfort level with what you are each doing and a respect for the other side - the SAHP can't get hung up on the annual report of "How much is a SAHP worth?" or other such nonsense. He/she can't demand that the other parent who spends 10 hours out of the house each day also do 1/2 of the housework and childcare. And the WOHP can't throw the fact that he/she's the only income producer in the face of the SAHP.

But that stuff isn't work, it's being at ease with your decisions and respecting your partner.

again - I think some of us are more afraid of autism than ear infections when we aren't sure we can handle kids. From what you say on this board you don't know what that is like any more than I do. We all make decisions on a next step on imperfect information. You do not know what is like to devote your 30s to a nonprofit organization & give more than you might have been able to with kids. We each only get one life - so why waste time trying to decide if you are happier than someone else?

WorkingMomX: I know we kid-free types don't know ALL of what we're missing, namely the goo-goo eyed joy of parental love. What we DO know is that we're missing out on the hard stuff: diapers, competitive child-rearing, saving for college tuitions, dealing with teen drinking and sex, trying to keep our bosses and our children happy at the same time, etc.

How do we know we're missing these things? Because parents are forever ranting and whining about them on this and other blogs.

IMHO, if parenting were really all it's cracked up to be, the joy would outweigh the challenges and the internet would not be full of parents whining and judging each other.

I've only been married for 8 years, but so far the secrets to my happy marriage (at least, *I* think it's a happy marriage) are:
- Remember to "date" your spouse. You can't every day, but try.
- Remind your spouse, with your actions, how lucky he/she is.
- Remind yourself how lucky you are, so that they don't have to.
- Air your grievances, but fight fair. This is your spouse, not some punk in a dark alley or that gutter-sniping back-stabbing co-worker.
- Lean on your spouse when you need to, and be his/her support when they need it.
- Grow. Together. But that doesn't necessarily mean "growing together."
- Guys: Pick up your socks. Gals: Remember that socks on the floor is NOT a sign of the apocalypse.

To anonymous -- My stepdaughter is a teenager. Why do you ask?

You're right - it is easy to say when the children are young and bring nothing but joy. After your children are grown you may have a different perspective. I was in your shoes at one time, but things can change drastically. I hope it's better for you, and this time in my life may turn out to be like childbirth - after it's over, you forget some of the pain :).
_______________

Again...I want to say HANG IN THERE!!!!! I have a very good friend who's going through your stage of life right now, and it is rough. She has one child who wants to commit suicide, another who stays out all night (both in highschool)...plus, two kids who are still in elementary school...and her husband travels all the time! And she doesn't have family close by. It just is a tough, tough stage... but you're not alone!

After 30 years together, it has come down to respect for each other, and clearly communicating our expectations.

Whoever, if anyone, stays home, or works, deserves respect for their role and contriubtions to themselves, their marriage, and their family.

This is based on the partners expectations of each other. Are they clearly communicated, and have you reached a workable consensus?

As newSAHM said, I also don't believe that whoever earns more (or anything) would be resentful (I know u didn't sat that, but I think it was implied?). To us, we look at what comes in and what goes out as ours, and we have it together.

As for leslie's point of view, I so agree. I see my sister's abusive marriage where she plays the martyr and shows her husband how much she does for him and the kids, etc, and it will never be enough. The more she does the more he's likely to get angry with her (they are two very unhappy people-and maybe that's the point-they were unhappy before marriage and kids, they are still unhappy-so it's not like any of the situations made them unhappy-maybe unhappy people are more likely to get married and have kids to try to make themselves happy?)

"We each only get one life - so why waste time trying to decide if you are happier than someone else?"

I think I'm going to print that one out and hang it on the wall! Very well said.

"We each only get one life - so why waste time trying to decide if you are happier than someone else?"

I think I'm going to print that one out and hang it on the wall! Very well said.

Saying that having a baby has brought your marriage to the pinnacle of happiness is definitely the first sign of people who have just embarked upon the long hard slog of parenting.

To quote Dwight, "False." I've been helping to raise my stepdaughter for 10 years, and now have two younger children. I know about parenting through the teenage years. Some of it sucks, some of it's great, but I wouldn't change a second (except for maybe the time I allowed her to ride a roller coaster until she puked all over me when she was 14).

I really think you need to step back and take a look at what you just said. I never said parenting was all rainbow days. But tell me, those of you with kids, would you have it any other way?

test

There is something to be said for simply being honest with yourself and each other. In my experience, the happy marraiges are the ones where spouses feel comfortable in their disagreements (so that they can face challenges without arguing) and are supportive of each other's goals. The "balance" that I tend to see there is one of being both supportive and asking for help at the same time.

I work with the college age crowd...

I am going to do a bad job describing this but -
I am pretty sure there is a miraculous point somewhere in the 17-21 year old range where the vast majority of teenagers become a joy to be around again. Hopeful and excited to learn and try new things - without the peer pressures of HS?

"You do not know what is like to devote your 30s to a nonprofit organization & give more than you might have been able to with kids."

No, I do not know what autism is like and I hope I never have to find out. I never said I did, which is different from saying "I know" what it is like to have kids from watching other people.

Also, please don't make assumptions about me. I am in my 30s and work for a non-profit. You can find another way to try and make your point now.

kattoo,

Thanks for the encouragement. We are hanging in because it is close to the end, but I'm still not sure the marriage will survive.

"But you need to make sure you and your husband stick together!" Unfortunately, we don't agree on how to handle the teenage problems, and this is a major source of conflict beyond the problems themselves. Your thought is nice, but I really can't make sure my husband does anything, including sticking together. I can only change myself, and frankly, I believe in my outlook concerning the kids more than his.

Putting on armor now for all the "you should have decided this before you had children" Well, guess what, our ideas of raising children were compatible while it was still theory. In reality, we both shifted in philosophy somewhat, unfortunately the shift was away from each other.

Experienced mom said it best - we love our children but they are NOT good for our marriage.

First, I think that it is a bit bogus to compare happiness between childless and "childed" couples. These are just two totally different propositions. I do even know if there is a universal definition for happiness.

As far as relative happiness in a "childed" marriage, I think it depends upon how far up the family trail you are. Certainly, the first few years brings great joy as you see that smiling pile of pooh turn into his own little person who can dress and toilet himself. The teen years are far tougher but with a few flashes of what the child can/might turn out to be as an adult. Although the parenting trail never ends until the death of a parent, the adult years for the child can turn into immense satisfaction for the parent (or some continuing pain).

Frieda and I are at that point where 3 are out of the house and the teenager is still with us. We shake our collective heads about the 15 yr old saying we have to go thru those teen years again. But for the two girls, we derive immense satisfaction from our parenting efforts. (We still worry about the older son.) Just yesterday, AF dau called and said that three of her sergeants told her to tell us what an outstanding job we did raising her. At 21, she is strong, independent and has a plan for her life which she is currently executing. Not every young airman is like this.

How can I compare our happiness in raising children compared to a childless couple who have the opportunity to fulfill themselves by their actions? Can I say that I am a better person or happier than childless who can pursue philanthropic activities that I do not have the time or money for? I cannot.

As a wife, married 49 years, and having experienced alot of ups and downs in that time, first trying to emulate a sacrificing Mother, and then coming to my senses,I'll share what worked and didn't in our lives
. Leaving my teaching job to raise 3 kids, and then, fortunately, able to find a great job for 10 years afterwards......my husband and I have seen it all. Our marriage improved markedly when I worked outside the home and had a little more prestige (and earned money). It's a relief not to feel "beholden", however generous your husband is.

Down with sacrifice and too much understanding!
Up with independence (including money), frankness and some good conversations of any and all kinds.

As a wife, married 49 years, and having experienced alot of ups and downs in that time, first trying to emulate a sacrificing Mother, and then coming to my senses,I'll share what worked and didn't in our lives
. Leaving my teaching job to raise 3 kids, and then, fortunately, able to find a great job for 10 years afterwards......my husband and I have seen it all. Our marriage improved markedly when I worked outside the home and had a little more prestige (and earned money). It's a relief not to feel "beholden", however generous your husband is.

Down with sacrifice and too much understanding!
Up with independence (including money), frankness and some good conversations of any and all kinds.

As a wife, married 49 years, and having experienced alot of ups and downs in that time, first trying to emulate a sacrificing Mother, and then coming to my senses,I'll share what worked and didn't in our lives
. Leaving my teaching job to raise 3 kids, and then, fortunately, able to find a great job for 10 years afterwards......my husband and I have seen it all. Our marriage improved markedly when I worked outside the home and had a little more prestige (and earned money). It's a relief not to feel "beholden", however generous your husband is.

Down with sacrifice and too much understanding!
Up with independence (including money), frankness and some good conversations of any and all kinds.

Sixty-seventh!!! Finally! :)

WorkingMomX,
Stop defending your choices and trying to get all of the other Moms to back you. If you are happy, then you should be satisfied with your choices...not trying to defend them.

Of course having children is great for those who choose to...duh!!! It's what you wanted in the first place. But, if you don't want them, then why would having them make you happier?

Kid Free in Alexandria

"How do we know we're missing these things? Because parents are forever ranting and whining about them on this and other blogs.

Pet owners do the same thing. Brag and whine.

You do not know what is like to devote your 30s to a nonprofit organization & give more than you might have been able to with kids.

Yes, but is there a real demand for that sort of feeling? Give me a break. Besides, there are a lot of nonprofits that have a negative impact on the world. Judicial Watch comes to mind.

"We each only get one life - so why waste time trying to decide if you are happier than someone else?"

Yes, because she said she was happier then childless couples. Can you read?

But tell me, those of you with kids, would you have it any other way?

YES.

And this is despite the fact that after 20+ years of raising two kids, they are out, about and doing fine. We did a good job of raising the children to be reasonably well-educated, respectiful, productive members of society. But no, it has not been good for our marriage.

Although I love my children dearly I do not think that they improved our marriage, particularly in the beginning. Yes it was fun to have a baby, but they bring a whole slew of work with them.

I think equality and respect count for a lot. It justifies the feeling of partnership.

My manager is divorcing from someone he married in college. She never finished her degree, which I find very unusual in this age. I've only hear his side of the story, but I can not imagine why she is leaving. She has everything to lose and they're basically splitting up their debt. Material girl that I am, I'd be trying to work it out.

I can only surmise that the feeling of respect and equality is such a strong driver that she is willing to accept the decline in living standards and security to establish a life where she feels valid.

"You're right - it is easy to say when the children are young and bring nothing but joy. "

Yes, it probably once was nothing but joy for the parents of the one million people sitting in prison in America!

To: Anon for this

Go for counseling before you decide your marriage is kaput. All I can compare it to is when our child was an infant, and I actually packed my bags, took our child and left! I was sure our marriage wasn't going to survive...all we did was fight! But we got past that stage and it's much, much better now. If your marriage was good at some point, I think it can get good again...you just might need a counselor to go and discuss it with, so you can both air your point of view.

To Who?

I am not defending my choices. I feel no need to do that. I am defending my words. Do you get the difference? As for being satisfied with my choices/life, etc., I am one of those always happy people you've been warned about. Achtung, baby!

Childless couples usually have more money, which may also be a reason they are happier. Money problems is a big cause of divorce.

I've never understood how they've quantified "happiness"- is it as simple as asking "Are you happy?" "On a scale of 1 to 5, rate your happiness level"?

To me, the definition of "happiness" is fluid. What made me happy 5 years ago is not what makes me happy now. I'm more stressed out now, married with 1 child, than I ever was before kids. Of course that appears to make me less "happy", but it's not true at all.

I think parents get greater BURSTS of happiness, if that makes sense (rather than being just regualrly happy all the time).

I think being a parent has made me more happy than I could ever describe- a happy that I don't think non-parents can feel.

Some days I am so overcome with joy and happiness and how lucky am I to have an amazing healthy child and great husband-

Some days I want to run far far away and never look back ;)

It's just stressful.

But wonderful- and yes, that makes me happy.

I can only surmise that the feeling of respect and equality is such a strong driver that she is willing to accept the decline in living standards and security to establish a life where she feels valid.

Posted by: RoseG |

There may be more going on behind closed doors than you aware. Alcoholism, abuse, mental illness, who knows.

But if she is willing to sacrifice financially in order to be independent of him, I seriously doubt this is over trivial matters.

It could be, of course! I almost hope it is for trivial stuff, because the alternative is so extra-unpleasant.

kattoo - "Go for counseling before you decide your marriage is kaput"

OK- now you are starting to get annoying -LOL. I was not asking for advice. I was commenting on my situation that marriages with kids are not necessarily more happy.

Anyway, how do you know that we are not already in counseling, or that he and I even care enough to want to save it?

WorkingMomX
"Always Happy" people don't tell everyone that they are always happy...

WorkingMomX
"Always Happy" people don't tell everyone that they are always happy...

sorry I was lumping your comments with some of the others saying that nonparents couldn't understand the joys of parenting. If you accept that, I would argue that (thankfully) don't think many parents understand the sheer pain that parenting can also bring. There seemed to be a lumped assumption that people were scared off by dirty diapers not by some of what I think are the scarier things. I also don't doubt you contribute more than I do to the world - but I have a few friends who travel to far reaches of the world fighting for kids who have a nothing we (again thankfully) don't know here. The "don't know what they are missing" rings hollow for me when I think of them. I don't think we necessarily disagree - I just feel like there is often one conversation about apples and another about oranges.

17% of working women outearn their husband by $5000 or more in 2005.

I wonder by what percentage they outearn their husbands, overall. 1%? 10%?

At what point do the men (overall) feel uncomfortable knowing their wife outearns them? One dollar? 5%?

When is it statistically significant?

Who?

Well, then, meet the woman who breaks the mold.

Did I miss something about oral sex and a sore throat yesterday? Is it worth reading the entire day's postings?

kattoo - "Go for counseling before you decide your marriage is kaput"

OK- now you are starting to get annoying -LOL. I was not asking for advice. I was commenting on my situation that marriages with kids are not necessarily more happy.

Anyway, how do you know that we are not already in counseling, or that he and I even care enough to want to save it?

Posted by: anon for this | May 25, 2007 09:42 AM

_________________

As for your questions, you're right...I don't know if you're in counseling, or if you both want to save your marriage. And I'm sorry if I'm being annoying...I'll shut up now!

"Did I miss something about oral sex and a sore throat yesterday? Is it worth reading the entire day's postings?"

It starts at 2:52 with a post by Mona.

Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.

It's all a matter of what's between the ears. Now, make up your mind and shut up about it.

When this country was run by real men we had a 3% divorce rate and we created the world leader and untold prosperity for those who worked for it, we are now controled by women and we have a divorce rate in excess of 50% our position in the world is in the toilet, or children rank at the bottom in wellness worldwide, and we are economically about to become a third rate country. Way to go girls.

Curiouser, when my wife was working, she outearned me by about 40K. It was awesome.

mcewen

"When this country was run by real men "

Please give the names of some of these "real men".

And now the world is run by fanatical fundamentalist Moslems who repress their women. Do you prefer their way to the way the US is now?

to to scarry

You don't have to say you are sorry. I would never say haha, you don't know what you are missing, have three or four kids. I think you just got me confused with someone else, which is easy to do on this blog, I have done it myself. And on the contribution to the world thing, I am sure we are probably even in that matter with maybe you edging me out because you have more time to do things for people. I also hate to think about what your friends see when they visit other countries, they are truly good people, much better than me.

Anyway, it is not a contest and I understand your feelings about being told you are missing something. I heard it all the time when I lived in Utah and was trying to finish my undergraduate degree. One doctor even told me at the age of 26 that I was going to be too old to have kids and that if I wanted them I better get on it before God decided I didn't need any.

This blog has now jumped the shark for the second time this morning.

This blog has now jumped the shark for the second time this morning.

Posted by: | May 25, 2007 10:04 AM

_____

What are you talking about?????

And now the world is run by fanatical fundamentalist Moslems who repress their women. Do you prefer their way to the way the US is now?

Yes, who stone girls to death for falling in love with the wrong person. I will take a 50% divorce rate over that anyday.

Leslie, the failure of my first marriage has alot to do with the happiness I now have in my second. Being more selfish in choosing who I married the second time around has made all the difference. I deliberately choose someone who was very emotionally stable and giving, as opposed to someone who needed mothering. My husband is the type of man that most women tend to overlook while seeking out someone reminds them of their father. Unfortunately most of us have fathers that expected and needed lots of coddling and compromise from the women in their lives. We go out their looking for a masculine figure who ultimately turns out to be a manchild. I'm hoping my daughter will know better. Maybe the next generation of men will be a little more comfortable assuming a fair share in the caretaking responsiblilites of the relationship. Maybe the next geration of women will know to value those qualities when they see them rather than chasing after the high school quarterback (not that their's anyting wrong with being a high school quarterback, if he's willing to help mom with the dishes then we'll take him too).

Leslie, thanks for putting into words what I've been trying to describe for years - I learned -- the hard way -- that there is no value in being a "perfect" wife. Being endlessly giving, and understanding, and doing all the shopping, cooking and cleaning (not to mention money-earning) and remembering my first husband's mother's birthday did nothing for the success of our marriage. That's exactly how my first marriage worked. My husband was responsible for sitting on the couch and watching TV. I was responsible for everything else. It was exhausting and miserable.

scarry

"I heard it all the time when I lived in Utah and was trying to finish my undergraduate degree."

What community college did you attend?

And now the world is run by fanatical fundamentalist Moslems who repress their women. Do you prefer their way to the way the US is now?

Yes, who stone girls to death for falling in love with the wrong person. I will take a 50% divorce rate over that anyday.

And who stone girls for going to school just to learn to read and write. Now Afghanistan has an entire generation of young women who illiterate due to the Taliban's reign of terror.

I think the happiness question may have more to do with couples having the same goals -- or just wanting the same things in life.

If two people who don't want kids get together, and they have chemistry, common interests, and respect for each other's alone-time needs, chances are they'll have a happy marriage.

Likewise, if two people who want to have children and whose prioities are roughly the same -- and who have the chemistry, common interests, etc., etc. -- hook up, they're likely to have a good marriage, as well.

It's all about pursuing what you believe in together.

We have decided not to have kids, but I don't believe that because of that, we'll automatically be happier, or more miserable, either. It takes work, no matter what.

All I can say is that for us, we know it was the right decision. We're both able to recognize that it simply isn't for us. And we discussed it extensively before we even got engaged.

I have the utmost respect for most parents who do seem to keep it all together. I know from the bottom of my heart that I would be a terrible parent, and that would be so unfair to everyone involved.

I think people need to recognize that there are pros and cons to each lifestyle. Why does it have to be a competition? I don't see it as having the greener side at all. This was the right decision for us, and it's not for everyone.

And in regards to marriage itself, we all need to remember that in a union, there are two individuals with very distinct personalities. You may have a lot in common, but you are still your own person, with your own thoughts, opinions and ideals. Getting all of that to intermingle and for the two individuals to be genuinely happy is a wonderful, precious thing.

Curiouser, when my wife was working, she outearned me by about 40K. It was awesome.

Posted by: 1975

Do you remember by what percent she outearned you?

Sharon

"My husband was responsible for sitting on the couch and watching TV."

Hey, that's my husband! Small world.

"Getting all of that to intermingle and for the two individuals to be genuinely happy is a wonderful, precious thing."

Very well said!

If I may, I would hazard to say that "rare" should also be included in your list.

1975- Did she quit to raise kids? It sounds like it would have made more sense for you to quit!

I made about $20K more than DH when he was working full time. Neither of us cares.

Obviously, we don't know what it's like to walk in someone else's shoes, but there is a common understanding between parents about what it's like to be a parent. I'm sure brain surgeons and astronauts feel the same thing with their colleagues.

I have to say, I'm a much happier parent and wife when I work. That much I do know.

What community college did you attend?

I didn't go to a community college.

The true concept of marriage is simple, but rejected. Marriage is the unity of two souls. In any marriage ceremony this is the key premise and purpose. Otherwise we may say that the marriage is merely anthropological.

An anthropological marriage allows, or usually implies full and equal access to a partner either for procreation, protection, sex or for benefitting the welfare of offspring. This is most reasonable.

Americans understand anthropological marriage perfectly, but few know or ever experience perfect marriage. A single affair outside the marriage is of course allowed, providing the marriage is understood anthropologically. But is it possible to have an affair outside the marriage when two souls are enmoltened into one? Well if it is, then by default, it was and will remain a merely anthropoligical marriage, a Darwninan marriage.

The bold sassy article that stimulated all of these comments, I opine, was written either because it was believed to be true or because it made good news-reading. Either way it exposes the authors lack of knowledge about love. Love is unconditional, and the foundation of marriage.

Now in the article that I read, the author noted how she did this and that and the other. In fact it seemed as though she kept a tabulator going in the back of her head (remember the song "No Charge?"). But didn't she understand that love is unconditional when she got married and put on the fancy dresss and played the part of a bride? Why do you think it's such a big day? Marriage is supposed to be forever! Why? because love is unconditional: it is not limited or conditioned by time, space, economics, likes or dislikes....

If love is conditional, then it isn't love but the satisfaction of a current desire, and this is an athropological affair, not a spiritual one. Hence her first marriage was anthropologiacl by nature.

In a seminar I once remarked that if one understood marriage, then those married would only have a single vote. Obviously I was laughed at, even by those that were married. But in the shadows of that same afternoon a few people who laughed at me in public came and asked what precisely I meant.

I said that if they sought to understand what I meant, then they knew nothing about marriage, in the truest sense. Didn't they read the vows?

Scarry,
The correct answer is, "I went to X College/University"...Then you would be actually answering the question without sounding put off by the notion that you might have attended a community college.

"I heard it all the time when I lived in Utah and was trying to finish my undergraduate degree."

What community college did you attend?

Utah says it all, wouldn't you say? So many of the people there really & truly women to earn that Mrs. degree and then disappear into the background, bowing & scraping submissively.

A friend of mine is a professor in Salt Lake City, and she's regularly surprised by how few of her female students actually take their education seriously.

"I've never felt the kind of love I have for my DD, and that includes the love I have for the nieces I'm very close with, my parents, and my husband."

"It is similar to falling in love with your spouse/significant other, but exponentially so much greater that it almost does not compare."

Maybe this is the reason why childless couples are happier--they're not ranking their love or comparing the love for their kid to the love for their spouse.

I know that if my husband had a kid and told me that he loved him or her more, I would think "what, so I'm just here to do half the chores?"

I could never dream of ranking who I love most in this world. I love my husband and parents and brother equally, meaning I would die for each of them.

Off topic alert

from wbal.com - trying to suck even more fun out of childhood -

"The Baltimore County school system has instituted a policy on school sponsored field trips.

The system has now made up a list of what officials call high risk activities that can not be a part of the trips or events anymore.

Officials consider them too dangerous or risky for kids to take part.

Michele Prumo, Manager of the Office of Risk Management for the Baltimore County School System tells WBAL Radio amusement park rides, pool parties, water sports, skiing, snow boarding and moon bounces at school fairs are now banned. The list contains about twenty such activities."

I answered the question. He asked me what community college I went to and I said I didn't go to one. I have nothing against community colleges and actually went to two branch campuses while attending the college. Maybe the poster should be less specific in what he asks if he wants a better answer.

For example: Scarry, what school did you go to?

We've been married 19 years, both have doctoral degrees, and are childless. We have never missed it!

I am not a judgmental type, and so if having a family is the best thing that happened to you, bless you. If not, you can also find happiness being childless.

My greatest perplexity comes with some acquaintances who told us they have children to insure that those children will be there to take care of them in old age. Nothing is certain--children sometimes die before parents, are debilitated, or have no interest.

I echo what an earlier person said--you can be happy either way.

Maybe this is the reason why childless couples are happier--they're not ranking their love or comparing the love for their kid to the love for their spouse.

Meesh, one more example of how you just don't get it!!

curiouser...61%

atb...she hated her job, worked 70+, and always looked forward to raising children at home. So, while it might have "made sense" based purely on dollars, there's a lot of other reasons why it made no sense. In the ensuing years, I've 'caught up' to her old salary, and we're doing just fine.

I would suspect that there is a genetic/biological factor as to whether a woman (or man?) wants children or not.

I have NEVER had the desire or interest or urge to have kids. I am married, and very, very happy and fulfilled.

I get that my friends want and have had children, and how fulfilling that is for them.

But that's not the right choice for me or my husband. And we never have pangs about it - to the contrary, we thoroughly enjoy our adult space and freedom.

Times are changing, women no longer always automatically assume that they must have children to be fulfilled, and more women are making the choice to NOT have children. Look at the statistics.

My hope is that one day every woman and man will have the self knowledge about whether they do or do not want to have children, and not make that decision based on "I didn't realize I had a choice" and societal expectation and pressure.

yangpu6

"In any marriage ceremony this is the key premise and purpose" ad nauseum.

Congratulations!
You win the Bozo award for the biggest bag of b.s. on this blog!!! (Where's that German from yesterday?)

Meech- Forgive me, but I have to say it: spoken like a non-parent. ;-)

There's another element to this discussion that I don't think anyone else has mentioned yet.

While some parents insist to child-free couples that they can't know the joys they're missing by not having kids, I wonder how many parents, having had children, truly need to believe they're happy with the choice -- since, really, there's no going back.

Is it possible that at least some portion of parents may regret the choice but cannot bring themselves to admit even the tiniest doubt to enter their minds? And that, to forestall the horror of admitting to themselves that they made the wrong choice, attempt to persuade as many others as possible to adopt the same path?

There is, after all, security and comfort in numbers.

And, before you all start yelling at me, please understand that I'm not suggesting that this might be the case with a majority of parents.

If children make marriages "less happy" then how do you explain the fact that so many couples have more than one child?

We got married when I was only 22 and have always considered it one of the greatest strengths of our marriage that we had the luxury of time together BEFORE having kids. We know who we are, both as individuals and as a couple, and that is the source of our greatest strength. It takes awhile to figure out who you are and what you want from life. If you have kids with someone before you've both figured yourselves out, it's going to be a substantially harder road.

yangpu6- Of course love is conditional. That's all I have to say about that.

No, wtf, I certainly and happily do not get why people rank their love. It's a completely foreign idea, and I'm happy to stay ignorant of it.

That being said, I'm not enjoying the "childless people don't understand xyz" tone the blog has been sporting recently, especially today. It's frankly insulting. See everyone some other day.

I'm one of 6, so I've gotten to observe all my siblings' marriages. One of my sisters has five kids, the oldest of which is nine. Her life IS the kids... her marriage comes second and I don't think she as an individual even ranks on her priorities scale. Therefore, she's unhappy.

Happiness has little to do with kids/no kids. It has to do with your attitude toward life and the circumstances you find yourself in. Guess what, if your husband's an abusive alcoholic and you just gave birth to a hydrocephalous baby that will die in the next few weeks, no, you're not going to be happy, regardless of your attitude. But there are alot of people in similar circumstances, some happy, some miserable, due to their attitudes.

Meesh, its not about loving more, its about loving different. If my child and my husband were drowing and I could only save one. I would without hesitation, save my child and my husband would want me to save my child also. Its something different and literally impossible to understand until you have it.

Children can expose the faults in a marriage - they demand money (food, clothing, etc) and time.
If you have maid service and/or lawn service and/or eat out most nights the fact that one of you is expecting the other to do for them instead of pitching in is less obvious. Also, if one of you is selfish and expects to be the center of the other's world and always come first the fact the baby/child sometimes needs to take precedence can be a rude awakening and if you take it out on your spouse it can harm the marriage. (And by take precedence I mean a partner who is to tired to do all the same things they did before childern because of the effort of parenting, a partner who interrupts activities because the baby is crying and needs to be fed, or changed, etc.)
All this adds up to a couple who may have been happy before the kid(s), but whose marriage is suffering after the kid(s).

Will someone please define "jump the shark"? I suspect i will love it if I only learn what it means.

I am a SAHM with two children, I have a post-graduate degree and worked until our second child was born. I take care of our kids and house and a 2.5 acre yard and there is always something that needs taking care of. But, I do have the luxury of taking extra time to read the Post if I feel like it.

I don't see why it's considered wrong and sacrificing to cater to one's spouse, anticipate his (or her) needs, do what I can to be sexy, remember his mom's bday, etc. My husband works hard and has a killer commute. I don't always have the energy do do everything or do it great, but I try and I know my husband appreciates it. I am showing my appreciation for the sacrifices HE makes so I can stay at home.

It doesn't have to be a Marabel Morgan type arrangement where it's done because the wife must submit to her husband. It can be done out of love.

As for the kids, well, they're here, so why worry about whether childless equals happier.

pittypat...that is a well documented consumer behavior (I know, children aren't purchases), but increased stakes (higher cost, less ability to return) usually increases post purchase satisfaction ratings.

One hundred ninety-twelfth!

The key to a happy marriage? Nooky, and lots of it. Those darn kids can wait...

married young- You also took a great risk, since younger marriages fail more often, as you often grow apart. You were smart not to have kids. I agree with having couple time, but that doesn't always work if you get married in your mid-30's or later.

pittypat- It's possible. But is it really so wrong to make yourself be happy? Good luck convincing people to have kid or not, though! Anyone who thinks it's sunshine and rainbows, whether they were convinced of it or always believed it, is stupid and will be very unhappy with the decision.

Jumping the shark refers to the point at which an otherwise enjoyable experience becomes stupid.

It comes from the Happy Days episode where Fonzie jumps over a shark on water skis. (Fonzie wears the skis, not the shark.) That was the point that Happy Days should have just gone off the air instead of trying to salvage the show by ever increasing stupid storylines.

1975,

I think you're right!

It's the same behavior you see at plays and concerts. Audiences often give standing ovations b/c they want to believe that the performance they just saw was worth the obscene price of the tickets to see it.

the experienced mom comments today are not from me, but I do agree!

pittypat, I went through a phase when I was pregnant where I became absolutely convinced that I would not love my child once it (we didn't know the gender) arrived, and that this was how most moms felt but they didn't tell anyone because they'd be shunned from society. I also felt like the only reason people had one child was a kind of "in for a penny, in for a pound" decision. Totally hormonal.

Thank you so much for the jumping the shark explanation. I hope I can remember to use it. I love your writing style and dry wit.

"I know that if my husband had a kid and told me that he loved him or her more, I would think "what, so I'm just here to do half the chores?""

As a parent, I think a little differently on the subject. I don't know that I rank my love for my son as higher on the scale of love than that for my husband, but when push comes to shove, I would choose my son over my husband, and I would expect my husband to do the same (ie, choose my son over me). I figure that both my husband and I are adults and can look after ourselves. Our son, however, is a child, and he needs his parents to always look to his best interests first. So in that sense, it would not offend me if my husband told me that my son was a higher priority than me--in fact, I would expect this of him.

this blog is usually more fun after it jumps the shark!

Pittypat said: "Is it possible that at least some portion of parents may regret the choice?"

I presume it would be very difficult to know, as of course admitting something like that would be taboo - but a search online brought up a program by Dr. Phil where mothers admitted that they did regret their choice to have children. They clearly do exist...

I would guess that there are people who regret not having kids, people who regret having kids... and people who are happy with their choices to have, or not have kids... And people who have mixed feelings on the subject.

I'm just thankful that I knew (at the very core of my being) that I didn't want children, and was lucky enough to have the freedom of environment, that having children or not, actually "was" a choice for me.

I wish that for every woman. To know that it is a choice, and for her to know who she is, so that she can make the right choice for herself.

"Jumped the shark" has come in handy at work lately. I've used it to reel in meetings that are getting way off topic and need to be ended.

Two other favorite phrases I'm probably overusing these days:

I say it's spinach, and I say to hell with it. (source, anyone?)

Cheese-eating surrender monkeys. (source, anyone?)

"I say it's spinach, and I say to hell with it. (source, anyone?)

Cheese-eating surrender monkeys. (source, anyone?)"

Know the source, hell, I don't even know the phrases.

Cheese-eating surrender monkeys. (source, anyone?)

The Simpsons.

Meech- I'm not trying to be insulting. There is plenty I don't understand because I've never experienced it. For instance, depression, suicidal thoughts, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, migraines. OK, those are all bad things, but the point is, I accept that I don't know what it's like and take their word for it. I respect your choice not to have kids. If you and your SO are in agreement, then you have one less huge thing to have disagreements about. As far as me ranking love, you're exagerating. I love a lot of people, but the kid is over-the-top, and that's not such a bad thing. I will say, my marriage comes first, but then, that's what's best for the kid, too.

Annapolis- You don't sound like a doormat, and I think that makes all the difference. You do all of that out of love, not fear.

I had a "successful" 30 year marriage during which we raised two wonderful children to adulthood, shared happy times and supported each other through tribulations,. My spouse left because of unhappiness with life and is now happily married to a second spouse. I am contentedly single for now. I have purposely not used gender nouns, because this seems to be such a common event. So, does a "succesful" marriage have to last until death, or can it be defined in other terms?

Childfree is the way to be. If you want to watch something grow, plant a tree. If you want companionship, get a pet.

Your children will not take care of you in your old age -- they'll choose your nursing home and spend your money to pay the bills.

It was good til it was bad then it was over is much more preferable than it was miserable for years and years and then we finally got divorced. The first was a good marriage, for the most part, and the second wasn't.

If children make marriages "less happy" then how do you explain the fact that so many couples have more than one child?

That is a really good question. I think it gets back tot he idea that if you are really happy and married, you may not want to mess up a good thing with bringing kids into it-- or, conversely, that those who are married and miserable may believe that the marriage could be improved by having kids. And maybe the happiness factor does go up, but maybe they still aren't as happy as those married and non-childed (is that the PC term?) couples are.

And while we are asking if perhaps childed people are just saying how great having kids is because there is security in numbers and they are just trying to pysch themselves into believing it is the right choice for them-- couldn't the exact same be said of non-childed couples? that they are rating their happiness as higher than they really are out of defensiveness? Out of a desire to build strength in numbers?

For some reason I doubt this, but perhaps it is just "the grass is always greener" reaction!

Anyway, it's a question that I'm sure crossed the minds of many others when reading this article-- were these non-childed couples being completely honest about their happiness?

If children make marriages "less happy" then how do you explain the fact that so many couples have more than one child?

Posted by: fabwm

For the same reason that so many re-marry. Hope trumping experience.

I can not imagine our life without 5 year old DD. She is the light of our lives.

Child rearing is not for everyone. I hate going to events where children are running wild and the parents are doing everything in their power to ignore their own children.

Even when I let my DD run it has limits. You may run to the bush but not behind.
Mommy must be able to see you at all times. Yes, I will give you water if
we have not had lunch no ice cream.

I enjoyed my time as a stay at home mom.
Now I enjoy my special time with her after work, in the mornings, and on long weekends. For some reason she is looking forward to going to the car wash tomorrow.

anon,

I feel for you. Kattoo, thank you for the words of encouragement you've given to anon. I can sense anon's despair. She appears to need some good female companionship. someone to go through this ordeal with her. Where I am from female relationships tend to be very close ( non-sexual for those who are wondering), they can be a great source of strength/buffer when one goes through life's difficult cycles. The only thing I can offer you at this point anon is some words of encouragement - hang in there, this too shall come to pass. I am sadden I can't offer more.

Sorry, Original Experienced Mom, I didn't realize the moniker was taken! I should've guess it though.

Someone said: "If children make marriages "less happy" then how do you explain the fact that so many couples have more than one child?"

I would presume for some couples, having another child was a very happy and natural choice...

...for others (and I know that this was the case with a friends of mine) they believed that it was important for their child to have a sibling. I got the sense that it was more about the right thing to do for their first child, than about whether or not they wanted a second child. (Societal messages if you will.)

So I guess that raises the whole debate about whether it is good or bad to have an only child

NewSAHM,

Actually Slach Dot Com IS correct. Small towns can afford to have ES deployed for most things but for bigger cities and localities 911 is an emergency service and should be used for such.

Posted by: EMT | May 25, 2007 08:30 AM

I was going to make the same point. The large counties in the DC Metro area like Prince Georges, Montgomery, Fairfax and even Prince William do not tolerate the "my cat is stuck in the tree" calls to 911. If you are in a small municipality it may be common, but try it around here and you will find yourself with a citation. Comparing small departments to large departments is like apples and oranges.

i still say it's spinach & i still say the hell with it.

cartoon from the new yorker (i think) said by a baby sitting in a high chair to its mother

back to subject, i qould question the stats. wasn't there another survey done that showed that marriages where the spouses were in more traditional gender roles were happier than those more "equalitarian" marriages. the suspected reason was that people in the more traditional roles knew their place & role in the marriage & were less likely to question themselves.

If children make marriages "less happy" then how do you explain the fact that so many couples have more than one child?

Posted by: fabwm

It is not something that happens the minute the child is born. Having children is an overwhelming experience in both good and bad ways. In my case, the marriage was wonderful while the children were small. It didn't go south until the children both were in school and life in general was more complex.

Having a failed marriage after 20 years; I know a lot NOW of what you need to have a good marriage. #1 is commitment from BOTH spouses. Commitment to the marriage vow; to the other spouse. Respect. Love. COMPROMISE. Making time for each other. Marriage takes two people to make it work. Your spouse should always be the top person in your life; even above your kids although you should love your kids as the result of your love for each other. Must have empathy!

Marriages break down when people get selfish and forget their vows. People change. Life circumstances changes. People do get tired and stressed. It isn't sex and happiness all the time. You help each other out thru the tough times. You made a vow to love each other and put each other first - if you do - your marriage will survive.

but psssttt... another secret to the marriage lasting MORE EASILY!!! BEFORE Marriage - Find someone pretty compatiable with yourself. similar principles on money, religion, politics, child raising (that is hard because what do you know about child raising until you raise one), methods for settling conflict, etc. The more compatiable you are; the easier. But opposites do attract so for the opposite qualities of your mate - learn from them and respect them and COMPROMISE.

And never let the sun set in anger with each other. Kiss each night before going to bed. Always.

We got married when I was only 22 and have always considered it one of the greatest strengths of our marriage that we had the luxury of time together BEFORE having kids. We know who we are, both as individuals and as a couple, and that is the source of our greatest strength. It takes awhile to figure out who you are and what you want from life. If you have kids with someone before you've both figured yourselves out, it's going to be a substantially harder road.

Posted by: married young | May 25, 2007 10:39 AM

How long were you together before having kids?