Wow, breast feeding again. I actually knew you could breast feed an adopted child. But I think Fred said you had to have a fairly young baby enter your family. Because the older babies won't adjust to the human nipple. I think with foreign adoptions, most of the kids are older infants when they arrive. I don't like the concept of swapping babies, personally. I would be concerned about disease spreading. Unless you know the person is disease free (like best friend or sister), it seems kind of risky. Fred, can you enlighten us.

What is the balance angle on this one? My wife breastfed both our boys for a year each. I am a strong supporter on anytime anywhere. I do think swapping is a little weird because of the risk of disease. Mothers pass so much along through their milk...how do you know for sure what your baby is getting?

a man breastfeeding a baby?

Some things just ain't right.

http://www.babycenter.com/expert/baby/babybreastfeed/8824.html

OMG, it is possible for a man to breast feed.

Mako, Where are you?

It's a dream day for the psycho Nursing Nazis!!

I'm outta here!

The New York legislature passed a law requiring employers to allow female workers (including factory/service industry workers) to take time off each day to express breast milk for their babies. These women cannot be demoted, fired, or otherwise penalized for doing this. Great news!

http://salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2007/06/19/pump_it/index.html

The New York legislature passed a law requiring employers to allow female workers (including factory/service industry workers) to take time off each day to express breast milk for their babies. These women cannot be demoted, fired, or otherwise penalized for doing this. Great news!

http://salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2007/06/19/pump_it/index.html

I'm still lauging about the recent "gifted mother" poster! Ha!

I used breastfeeding to get out of jury duty!! Didn't know there was a LaLeche pamphlet about it. I just wrote that I couldn't see how I could pump during a trial and at that point I don't think my daughter was even taking a bottle so it would have been a nightmare. I got a postponement for 8 months and by then my baby was almost weaned so it wasn't a problem. It's great news that states are passing legislation on this. I will say I never received so much as a unfriendly glance when I breastfed my children in public and my office was very supportive as well of my pumping/going to the daycare center to nurse schedule. I guess my experience was not the norm so I hope the legislation helps.

I predict that within a decade or so, there will be a new movement by men who breastfeed.

Aughdfkljlsssdhhh! (Sound of male hanging self after reading this topic.)

Men have mammary glands? I guess I have to read that article now.

It's great that laws are being passed that support breatfeeders. That's about all I have to say about this. Have a great day, everyone!

"http://www.babycenter.com/expert/baby/babybreastfeed/8824.html

OMG, it is possible for a man to breast feed."
But, but the HAIR!!

As for "wet nursing", I DID nurse once for about 15 seconds my nephew - he was obviously hungry and I was still breastfeeding my daughter. It was a definite "eww" and "uh?" experience for the both of us.

Actually, I did know that breastfeeding was grounds for getting out of jury duty. I was unable to serve on a jury because I was breastfeeding my 3-month old, and could not be away from him for the length of time needed.

I'm with Leslie: I'm all for breastfeeding wherever and whenever and I don't give a hoot about the naysayers and the people who are (sadly) grossed out. However, I completely support any woman who bottle feeds as well. I'm a former member of LLL and love that organization for the assistance and support they provided when I was trying to establish nursing with both of my children. I don't like dealing with extremists of any kind, including some who were members of LLL and those who talk about nursing nazis and so forth.

Let's hope today's discussion will be civil.

You know, I think that I will sit this one out today! (maybe)

But, having said that, adoptive mothers can nurse. The age of the baby is somewhat of a factor as is the motivation of the mother. Frieda has helped a couple of adoptive mothers lactate. She says it works better if the mother has bf before. She said that some of her mothers had to supplement.

Just so you know her opinion of swapping kids, well never mind.

Frieda does think that women should not necessarily be excused from jury duty. I can see a "case" for it esp. if the jury is sequestered.

Nazis killed people, mothers nourish babies. I once again strongly object to the term. For those of you new to the blog, my uncle hunted down war criminals in Germany in 1945/46.

Hadn't thought about the hair thing...another "eeewwww!"

But on balance, I think men breastfeeding is a really good idea for equality in parenting.

Fred

"Nazis killed people, mothers nourish babies. I once again strongly object to the term."

Once again, this is the Net! Your previous objections were impotent! You can't tell me what to think or say!

Leslie,

"But on balance, I think men breastfeeding is a really good idea for equality in parenting."

All that I have to say about that is (Fred's obscene comment was censored!)

Fred

"Frieda .....just so you know her opinion of swapping kids, well never mind"

Why are you always the middleman? Have you ever had a thought that didn't first belong to Frieda?

Can't she do her own posting? Sheesh!

"Can't she do her own posting? Sheesh!"

Very simple answer, she is a luddite.

Fred

"Can't she do her own posting? Sheesh!"

Very simple answer, she is a luddite.

So is DH. I post my own thoughts, not my spouse's. Weird.

From Roll Call earlier this week:
**
By Emily Heil
Roll Call Staff

June 26, 2007

Some women do it in Starbucks. Others in cramped bathroom stalls. And soon, the women of the House will have their very own lounge for it. The chamber will soon boast a new "lactation lounge" where nursing moms can pump and breast-feed to their heart's delight, and all in a private facility matching the one that's been operating on the Senate side for years.

The new family-friendly House locale is on the fifth floor of the Cannon House Office Building, and HOH hears the setup is pretty swanky (although the phrase "swanky lactation lounge" sure makes HOH think of a fancy new cocktail bar along Pennsylvania Avenue).

House staffers have jokingly dubbed the soon-to-be-open venue the "lactation lair."

Until now, House-staffer moms have had to either schlep to the Senate side or pop into the physician's office to do their business, but the new setup is aimed at being more convenient -- and nicer. And it's no coincidence that the project came about under the Speakership of a woman, staffers are saying. "The Speaker recognizes the real needs and sacrifices of working mothers in today's world and is committed to making Capitol Hill a family-friendly place to work," a staffer for Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) says.

The facility is overseen by the Office of the Attending Physician.

Well-appointed as it might be, HOH expects that the new lounge will not be offering half-price drink specials during happy hour.

"Very simple answer, she is a luddite."

She can read minds?

"So is DH. I post my own thoughts, not my spouse's. Weird"

Just to let you know, Frieda's thoughts are clearly identified as hers, anything else I write is my opinion.

I'm still lauging about the recent "gifted mother" poster! Ha!

You really need to get a life then!

She can read minds?

Huh? What do you mean?

Breastfeeding is fine - but it is something that should be done in private - or at least very covered up. I don't know why I feel this way but I just do. That being said - I don't have kids, but if I had a baby, I would not breast feed. I just don't have the interest in it and I know that this should be a personal choice and that kids are just as healthy - or not - as bottle -fed.

As far as swapping out babies - that is just gross. No kid of mine is going to breast feed off of someone when I have no idea if they are telling the truth or not about what is in their system. This is completely ridiculous and it is going too far - especially paying the money they are paying.

Okay, for all you newbies to the board, Fred's opinions on all things related to breastfeeding are important and valid. His wife has been a lactation consultant for a very long time, and it's not a job, it's a way of life, right, Fred? So let the man speak. And leave Freida ALONE.

I'm not sure what to think about swapping babies. I loved breast feeding, but I have to admit there is something 'gone with the wind' about it. Am I reading too much into it? Am I being too pc?

WorkingMomX

"Okay, for all you newbies to the board, Fred's opinions on all things related to breastfeeding are important and valid. His wife has been a lactation consultant for a very long time, and it's not a job, it's a way of life, right, Fred? So let the man speak. And leave Freida ALONE"

Fred can SPEAK, but he can't tell me what to think or say!

Who died and made you Queen Bee of the blog?

"This is completely ridiculous and it is going too far - especially paying the money they are paying"

I have no idea what you are talking about?

Men can breastfeed? Awesome! My MIL is still critical of me years later because I had to abandon my attempts to breastfeed my son because he wasn't gaining weight. (And before you ask- yes, I tried everything you are about to suggest. Sometimes bf just doesn't work.) Now I can tell her that she should instead be criticizing my husband because he didn't try to do it himself.

Fred can SPEAK, but he can't tell me what to think or say!
Who died and made you Queen Bee of the blog?

This person is belligerent. I say we just ignore him, his Nazi posts, his Fred and Frieda post, and all his other posts.

I have to say anon is certainly getting his/her panties in a bunch over anyone defending themselves, giving information... No one is telling what to say, but workingmomx certainly gave you some background information that should certainly give you pause. think before you post, why don't you? or is that telling you what to do also? jeeeezzzz...

i don't think I could ever convice my husband to actually try to produce breat milk, but if the baby is really crying, I'm taking a shower and the baby won't accept a pacifier . . . has anyone ever tried that? Not for sustenence, just to get the baby to calm down and stop crying?

"what a piece of work is man . . "

To WAMC

Never say never. Once that baby comes out and you experience a surge of hormones and deep love for your baby, you just might decide to try to breastfeed.

And breastfeeding IS healthier for a baby, because breastmilk passes on antibodies found only in breastmilk. This cannot be replicated in formula.

Being a stay-at-home mom/dad is grounds for getting out of jury duty, too...

On topic: breastfeeding someone else's child (not talking about adopted kids)? Not sure I think that's the way to go (actually, pretty sure that's not the way to go). Formula isn't poison; if you can't breastfeed your child, give them formula, don't ask a relative to nurse your baby! And I speak from a pro-breastfeeding standpoint. But really, the idea of someone else nursing my child grosses me out for all sorts of sanitary reasons.

There are some studies that suggest brestmilk can help the (adult) body fight cancer. Don't ask me for more details, its been years since I dealt with the issue.

But, while I was going through chemo, I had two breastfeeding mother take me aside and offer to give me some breastmilk. I graciously thanked them and said I would consider it, but was probably going to stick with the doctor's plan for now.

Even today, 5 years later (cancer free), the concept turns my stomach.

Leslie, I don't think men breast feeding would create equality in the true sense. Because the articles posted here say that men can breast feed and produce some milk. But probably not enough milk to really feed the baby. It is more of an issue of being a human pacifer. Also the quality of milk from men has not been tested. Although I don't think that would be too hard to test. Mostly, I don't think men would want to breast feed. Even if they could produce enough milk, I just don't see US men jumping on the band wagon.

Men breast feeding -- we are not built that way. It's not a factor, so condemning us for not wanting to do something we biologically can't do seems pointless.

Arlington Dad

"Men breast feeding -- we are not built that way. It's not a factor, so condemning us for not wanting to do something we biologically can't do seems pointless."

It's not pointless to the frequent man-haters on this blog!

The On Balance blog makes everything so complicated. I dont have kids but if/when I do I guarantee that my sister (whom I adore) will not be breastfeeding them. Creepy. And I would be grossed out if I learned that my aunt breast fed me when I was a baby.

I've read up on both of these issues, and I think we need to be cautious about how far we extend the "breast is best" argument. This isn't to say these aren't potentially good approaches, but they are often discussed without any warning or acknowledgement of potential shortcomings.

1) I think the induction of milk in adoptive mothers or fathers requires the use of some natural herbs that the Institute of Medicine has warned against using.I can't remember the name, but I think one of them has been linked to heart disease in adults and there is concern about what it could do to a nursing mother or a baby.

2) I also read up on the cross-nursing. Breast milk is best for babies partly because the baby has been exposed to the mother's germs etc while in the womb. Thus, the child's stomach is able to digest wahtever is coming in, and their bodies do not have to deal with foreign antibodies. The breast milk of another person would be completely foreign to the baby and may come along with another set of tummy troubles. That's in addition to concerns about disease . . .

I am not saying this to state that these practices are wholly good or bad. But I have been increasingly frustrated by how far individuals and organizations are willing to take the "breast is best" statements. They take their conclusions well beyond what the current science says . . .

About nursing someone else's baby: I personally would not offer to do this except in an extreme situation (like where the child's very survival depended on it), but I do wish I'd lived closer to a breast milk bank when I was nursing my son and had an oversupply. The donated milk is screened (as are donors) and used to help very premature babies survive.

Part of the reason I breastfed my children is because I felt it was a sort of talisman against other poor parenting choices I might make. Like, if I breastfed my child for at least a year, I might get a pass on letting them eat McDonald's "food" when we're on trips. Does any other mother who breastfed feel like this?

I don't think there was an official policy on it, but I was able to postpone my jury service in New York City when I was breastfeeding (and pumping at work). I told them I'd be happy to serve, as long as they had a private place for me to pump and there would be adequate breaks during the trial. They quickly said they didn't have any such accommodations, and they told me I could postpone as long as I needed to. That was easy! (I served 6 months later, when I was finished breastfeeding, and I got on a jury for a very interesting trial. So I wasn't trying to avoid jury service, just trying to do it in a way that worked with breastfeeding.)

As for outsourcing breastfeeding, I would be for it. There's a very long history of wet nursing (of course some of it involved rich women who didn't care for their own children because they saw it as beneath their station in life).

I read an interesting law review article a few years ago on creating a market for human breast milk. That doesn't seem likely any time soon (mainly because pumping is such a pain, or at least I thought it was). What do people think about that? Buying your breast milk at Whole Foods?

I hope my state passes legislation to protect the rights of babies to nurse in public. I am not a fanatical anything; I believe that women should feed their babies, in public, private, whatever works best for the baby. Some babies won't nurse in public; too distractable. Some babies get hungry suddenly and need to eat Right Now, and have obvious hunger pains, anguish, and misery if you try to make them wait after they first exhibit hunger signs (by which time those types of babies are already ravenous.) Some babies, like mine, could nurse in public if they were really really hungry but otherwise (once they were older and nursing only 3-4 times a day) were happier indoors in a quiet room, preferably at home. I am in the vast majority of moms who, when nursing in public, make every effort to be discreet, but if someone staring at my breasts while my baby is latching or unlatching gets a glimpse of nipple, well, shockeroo. I do have nipples. You might see a quick flash of one every once in a while if baby's head + my attempt at quick coverup with nursing bra and top doesn't obscure the view. I'm the kind of nursing mom (and my babies are the kinds of relatively calm, non-thrashing-around, non-shirt-lifting babies who have never gotten a single negative glance or comment about our public nursing.

I do recognize that there are some moms who like to be 'in your face' (literally and figuratively) about their public nursing, and it sometimes seems like this very small minority of moms is not trying at all to be discreet. But those folks are the minority. And, just because the mom is an activist or an exhibitionist doesn't mean that the baby should suffer. (The baby might indeed suffer enough when he grows up, with a mom who has a huge chip on her shoulder or a penchant for flashing her naked body to strangers, in a way that seems quite purposeful and fink-you ish. )

So YAY for legislation that supports breastfeeding, and 40 lashes with a wet noodle to anyone who tries to make other people uncomfortable with their over-the-top exhibitionistic public breastfeeding, and another 40 lashes with a wet noodle to anyone who gets their undies in a bunch about the quick flash of some discreet moms' nipples.

Breastfeeding - in public or private - IS an issue about life balance. Moms are balancing work-life issues (some public breastfeeding happens at the child care handoff spot, for working moms, or while on their lunch hour that they take with their infant --- go get kid from daycare, spend 45 minutes snuggling and BFing, go bring kid back to daycare, etc.) and for all moms, WOH, WAH, SAH, etc., it's also about the act of balancing What You Know Is Right (feeding your child) with Dealing With The Negative Backlash From Ignorant SOBs (which might drive a bf-ing mom to nurse her kid in the -ugh- bathroom. Bleah. Yuk.

Working mom:No, I just enjoyed the bf relationship with my child. My daughter loved it too. I let her eat plenty of junk now. So I guess I am a formerly good mommy-currently bad mommy.

I got out of jury duty due to breastfeeding. I showed up, told the woman I was breastfeeding and that my husband would be bringing the baby to me every 3-4 hours to eat. She asked how hold the baby was. When I told her 4 months and with some health problems she just told me to go home.

I had served on a jury while pregnant with this baby so I really felt no guilt about getting out of this. Yes, you can serve on a federal jury and it not count when called up for DC court.

WorkingMomX

"Part of the reason I breastfed my children is because I felt it was a sort of talisman against other poor parenting choices I might make."

How?

Ok, completely off subject here but I need some advice from parents who have done this job search thing before.

Recently I posted a question regarding job searching while being a mom and how to handle the interview process to weed out un-family-friendly workplace. Many of you responded and provided me with great advice. Thank you.

I have gotten some nibbles recently but have come to realize after being back in the working world for about 5 months now that I want to step backwards so I can devote more time to my family. Thus, I am actually interested in applying for positions that employers might consider me too qualified for. Has anyone ever done this and how did you handle your cover letter and then the interview? I know the question as to why I am applying will come up?

In advance, thank you!

I don't know enough to comment on any possible health concerns with regard to cross-nursing, but I do find it fascinating that everyone is so grossed out by the idea, since through most of human history it was not an uncommon practice, and one frequent reason for it was if a woman couldn't produce enough milk on her own. But nowadays instead we have the "nursing nazis" (sorry to reuse the phrase, anyone who's offended) insisting that of course every woman can effortlessly produce more than enough milk for her baby and if she's having trouble or needs to supplement with formula, well, obviously she's a selfish, bad mother. Wouldn't it be nice if we ladies were able to band together more often instead of tearing each other apart like this? To me, cross-nursing seems like a nice example of the former.

I didn't breast feed and it is not fair for people to make you feel bad if you don't. That is a very personal choice.

I believe my family is genetically predisposed to be wet nurses. Not that we are applying for the job. I have not breastfed for years but still have milk. And my mother had milk for about 15 years after she last breastfed. I produced so much milk for my first that I had to throw a lot of it away. I would feed her, pump another bottle, and freeze it. But there was no way to use all the milk. I would have gladly given it to someone who wanted it, for research or feeding a baby. It just seems that genetically, historically there are some women with a lot of milk and some woman without enought and so one nursed other babies. Now we have pumps and formula to help the over and under producing.

gmg

"Wouldn't it be nice if we ladies were able to band together more often instead of tearing each other apart like this?"

Yes, and could they please STOP bragging about their kids?! It's a big turn off and drives people away.

And I think that nursing someone else's child or donating milk to a milk bank is an intensely personal decision that should be made between the mothers involved, taking into consideration the comfort levels of the mothers, and fathers if applicable, with the idea of sharing milk that way. Obviously you should vet a potential sharer or donor for health issues, etc., but if both parties are cool with it, then what business is it of anyone else's? Lots of folks things in their private lives that would gross someone else out. And others would applaud, and most wouldn't care. That's how I feel about milk-sharing. I do not think that women who can't breastfeed should be pressured to accept breastmilk from another woman. Breast is best, but formula is a wonderful next-best alternative, and to act like it's poison is ridiculous. I hope that milk-sharing doesn't become a battleground of the lunatic fringe lactivists; I can envision a guilt campaign by the lactivist fringe to make ff-ing moms feel bad for not using a milk bank when their attempts at bf-ing failed. Ugh. Personal choice, people. I am/was/have always been an exclusive breastfeeder, really committed to it, nursed/nursing both kids til 18 months or more, but I still hate seeing breastfeeding die-hards give formula feeding moms the hairy eyeball as if they'd just caught them smothering their child or dosing them with heroin. It's formula, for pete's sake. They are feeding their babies. It's a nice thing, it's good. Lay off, is what I say to the chip on their shoulder lactivists who make ff moms feel bad or guilty. Judge not lest ye be judged. We are all doing our best. We all make different choices. Let's support each other instead of condemn each other. Isn't that what we're trying to model for our children?

I appreciate your comments. I agree that it's funny that people are so grossed out about cross-nursing. It makes me think that maybe we've (sort of) gotten past the idea that a woman nursing her OWN child is sexual, but that we haven't really moved past that issue completely.

Those of you who are grossed out by it -- why is that? Is it about disease? Germs? Or is it the concept of someone else's child sucking on a woman's nipple?

I like the concept of cross-nursing as a way of women supporting each other, but it's also important to remember that it was done throughout history because there wasn't any other alternative (formula). So my question is whether we are promoting this because we truly think it's best for the child's health (in which case, we need to consider some of the things I raised earlier) or because a small number of people and organizations are on an "everyone must be breastfed" kick. The former is perfectly reasonable, it if is indeed true that this is best for children, and the latter suggests a lack of acceptance that people may choose (or be forced into) different ways to feed their babies.

Actually, Arlington Dad, there is some evidence that men are "built that way"-- God (or evolution if you will) created humanity so that both genders have nipples, mammary glands and the ability to produce the hormones that create breastmilk. Maybe before formula was an option, it was like an insurance policy-- if the mother couldn't produce milk, at least the father could.

That said, there is certainly a strong (almost universal) taboo against male breastfeeding-- and perhaps for a good reason! Imagine that either the mother or the father could provide breastmilk for infants-- what would be the cost to society? I can see the benefits, but I'm sure that there would also be unforeseen harms also. But maybe those harms were only relevant long ago-- that this taboo (like inter-racial marriage) has outlived its usefulness?

the taboo against sharing your breastmilk with another child is easy to pin-point and is still valid-- unless it is going to actually help perpetuate your genes, don't share the precious resource (or otherwise let it go to waste) on others.

My husband loved to nurse from my breasts. Whenever convenient, I let him finish up after our baby fell asleep. I always had plenty of milk, maybe too much. LOL!

Here is a question for the blog. Is this normal? I wouldn't dare share this with my family or friends, but an anonymous blog like this one could give me an answer.

Thanx

I too would like to know about how others have handled a job search knowing that your family's needs are one of your priorities. I had received a job interview back in December from a woman who did a phone interview with me first and heard my daughter in the background. She said she understood since she also had 2 children. I was invited for an in-person interview which I thought went really well, but it did include some discussion about work/family balance that I was interested in knowing about being needed to work extra hours. I was not offered the position (which I was qualified for), so I'm wondering if they didn't think that i would give them the 110% percent commitment they would need despite the fact that my supervisor had 2 kids that I'm sure she needed to be there for. So, I'm still looking for something that might not be as time demanding (lower position than I'm currently in), but have not been called for any interviews.

To DC Mom

"But I have been increasingly frustrated by how far individuals and organizations are willing to take the "breast is best" statements. They take their conclusions well beyond what the current science says . . ."

Are you threatened by the breast and breastmilk??

The breast IS best, which has been well-substaniated by "current science." There is no need to take conclusions beyond that statement, because the statement is an end-statement.

Nutty Mama, In my last few jobs (this one I have been at for nearly 6 years), I pulled a bait & switch. When they made me the offer, I negotiated the hours down to what I needed for my family. I did the "I can do that job in 30 hours per week." The VP in charge of selecting me said he asked my references if I was that fast and they all agreed I could do the job in a lesser amount of time than most people. I also swear to be flexible, which I am, working from home and coming in on nights & weekends when necessary. I do proposals for a contractor, and I have maintained the 9-3 hours with time off for school events as needed.

I think breast-feeding is great, if you are willing and able to do it. I tried with #1 -- he was 3 weeks early (my water broke & I ended up having a C-section) and he had mild jaundice, which was not unusual in an early birth, AND my body had not started producing milk, or anything else. BTW, he weighed 8 lb 15 oz. He was given sanitized water; this was in the days before the bottle nipples that simulate the breast. Even after 4 days in the hospital, there was nothing going on -- he was most emphaticaly not interested in latching on, and there was nothing available even if he had. I thought maybe it was just the stress of being in the hospital, and having the breast pump hooked up twice a day (I felt like moooooing) and having everyone check on me every 20 minutes. After a few days at home, nothing was happening still (well, except I had to keep giving him the water they sent home, and stick him in a sunny window virtually naked -- in January), and I went to formula.

When I found out I was pregnant with #2 (when #1 was EIGHT MONTHS OLD), I decided right away that I didn't want to mess with that again. Just to demonstrate that God has a rather bizzare sense of humor, almost everything went by the book with him -- went into labor on my due date, milk expressed on schedule (but I had complications & wound up in the ICU for a few days), and I probably could have nursed him if I wanted. Oh well. Both boys are smart, well-adjusted, and were quite healthy growing up.

I would never have allowed another person to nurse the boys, because who knows what that person is passing along in the breast milk? However, I was very generous in allowing anyone and everyone in the family to give the boys the bottle. Another thing I liked about bottle-feeding was that I could make eye contact with the boys -- their view during meals was not Mommy's armpit.

I think nursing is OK just about anyplace babies are OK. The one exception, in my mind, is church. I don't think it's such a great idea to try to attend church with a baby anyway. Almost all churches have nurseries, and many Catholic churches have crying rooms, where moms or dads and babies can go and still be at Mass; I think some of the megachurches do as well. I was not one of those moms who brought cheerios and coloring books to entertain the kids either. The boys started going to church when they could sit down and be quiet for an hour. Of course, son #2 manages to sneak his phone in and text like mad during most of the service...but at least he's there, and he's quiet!

The breast IS best, which has been well-substaniated by "current science." There is no need to take conclusions beyond that statement, because the statement is an end-statement.

Posted by: | June 27, 2007 10:02 AM

But is the benefit minor in the overall picture? Most of pro breast feeding literature only shows mild benefits of bf. Even the studies linking FF with obesity have been refuted.

Jen S. -- where are you getting this? I'd be interested to read any research / history of men ever breast feeding.

It's not a "strong (almost universal) taboo against male breastfeeding" -- men don't breastfeed because men don't product milk.

Nutty Mama

"I was not offered the position (which I was qualified for), so I'm wondering if they didn't think that i would give them the 110% percent commitment they would need despite the fact that my supervisor had 2 kids that I'm sure she needed to be there for."

I wouldn't hire an applicant who permitted a child to make background noise while on a telephone job interview. I would question the applicant's maturity, among other things.

NuttyMama, I'm in human resources. I suggest that you include in your cover letter for the position that you're especially interested in the ABC position because you have worked as an ABCDEF, and your favorite aspect of the job was the ABC part of it. Now that you're back in the work force after taking time off to raise young children, you're interested in focusing your time in the ABC area, and this position appears to be an ideal fit. And try to find out what the salary range is, roughly, for this position, and if you're comfortable doing so, you might even mention in your cover letter what your desired salary range is. Or, if the job has an application (some professional jobs do, it's not all service industry jobs that do this) you can submit an application along with your resume and cover letter, and include your desired salary range (in line with the job) there. Also, try to use personal contacts. Ask friends at good companies to tell their HR people that they know a great candidate who's looking to take a job with more modest responsibilities for a big pay cut, and that you'd be a GREAT deal for the company, and make sure they tell the HR person that you are NOT looking to earn or work at the high/strategic levels that you were at before. Good luck!

gmg - as I said earlier, and I'll clarify now, it isn't the germs, potential sexual nature or anything like that, it is simply too much 'gone with the wind'...meaning it seems like something slaves did for master, or irish did for their rich employers in New England back in the early 1800s.

To anon at 10:02:

I am not threatened by breastmilk. What a ridiculous statement.

But the science behind "breast is best" is a question of whether children who are fed breastmilk by a biological mother fare better than those who receive formula. even that science has huge flaws (as a researcher, I am well aware of them), but we'll take it as a given for now.

Regardless, those findings do not necessarily geralize to the idea that ANY breastmilk (produced by anyone under any circumstance) is ALWAYS better than the alternative.

Based on your faulty logic, it would be better for a mother undergoing chemotherapy (or taking dangerous drugs that can be passed to the baby through breastmilk) to breastfeed rather than to receive formula.

You probably need to brush up on your understanding of science. You might want to look into how to engage in appropriate, civil discussions, as well.

to TMI Question?:

In my opion, NO

Teaching toddlers to be good in church with their family is bad, but some kid texting to his friends is okay? Obviously your kids didn't learn to go to church if they TEXT. I take my toddlers into church, without cheerios but with coloring books, and they understand it's a place of respect where they are quiet or removed. And why should breastfeeding mothers not nurse in church? That's less respectful than text messaging?

I'm still flabbergasted. Texting in church? Why bother to take them?

I used to think I would never want to breastfeed. Even while pregnant- I looked at various bottles, formula, etc. When my child was born, I decided to breastfeed-- and I am glad that I did. Fr us it was the best choice and I breasefed for 6 months.

I have friends who wanted to breastfeed (their own children) and for various reasons it didn't work (such as not producing enough milk.) The breastfed and non-breastfed kids in our circle of friends are all fine-- so I don't think breastfeeding breaks or makes a kid, bonding, etc. It' a personal choice that every mother has to make-- or that Mother Nature decides.

I was very lucky that I only heard positive comments from people when I was breastfeeding. I live in Austria and here the public health insurance even pays for the rental of a breastpump.

Before being a mom I couldn't understand wy some women breastfed in public-- not as a mom myself, I understand. And even those of us moms who bring along a wrap, blanket, whatever to cover up with-- well, sometimes baby has other ideas!

The interviewer called me at home after dinner time before my husband could get home to help me. Am I immature if I am not able to have a 2 year old keep quiet while I am talking on the phone?

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=&articleID=A24E0966-E7F2-99DF-322F8725F208D744

"I'm all for breastfeeding wherever and whenever and I don't give a hoot about the naysayers and the people who are (sadly) grossed out. However, I completely support any woman who bottle feeds as well. I'm a former member of LLL and love that organization for the assistance and support they provided when I was trying to establish nursing with both of my children.

Posted by: WorkingMomX | June 27, 2007 08:23 AM

WorkingMomX, This balanced (pun intended) post makes you my Wednesday hero, LOL.

In addition, I was invited in for an in-person interview despite the noice my daughter was making in the background during the phone interview, so the interview must have felt I was qualified (an mature enough) to invite me.

In addition, I was invited in for an in-person interview despite the noise my daughter was making in the background during the phone interview, so the interview must have felt I was qualified (an mature enough) to invite me.

noice should be noise

an should be and

First time on this chat, but I find it interesting that no one has mentioned the financial aspect of breastfeeding. Formula is pretty expensive - a friend who couldn't breastfeed spent $100/month on formula (Similac) and that was using coupons and buying powder at Costco. It was one of the reasons I kept pumping at work with #1 and am going as long as I can with #2. We had to supplement with #1, and I made it to about 11 months.

I'm still flabbergasted. Texting in church? Why bother to take them?

Posted by: HUH? | June 27, 2007 10:10 AM

I don't take him, actually. He gets up, showers, dresses and drives himself. He leaves for college in five weeks and three days. What do you think I should do -- ground him??

Texting like mad was an overstatement meant to be funny -- although he does sneak in some messages during the service. In my opinion, his self-directed church attendance, at his age, mitigates his texting.

Formula 100/month for 12 months=1200$
BF
good pump around 300
plastic bags to store milk around 12/month =72
extra calories needed to BF=approximately 300
Total savings $528 a year (that is a conservative estimate on food costs) Hard to really know how much people pay for food.

I guess is $528 enough money for the hassle for the middle and upper middle class? Definitely not enough for the rich to make it worth it.

Okay, peeps, saying that there's a dispute as to whether breastmilk is better than formula is like Cheney saying that there's a dispute about whether global warming exists. Puh-lease. The science, hard science, backs the breastfeeders every time. Moms who don't want to breastfeed and people who think it's disgusting love to talk about how formula is better, but you sound like idiots when you say it.

"Arlington Dad

"'Men breast feeding -- we are not built that way. It's not a factor, so condemning us for not wanting to do something we biologically can't do seems pointless.'

"It's not pointless to the frequent man-haters on this blog!"

Posted by: | June 27, 2007 09:22 AM

They are not man-haters. They are equality-worshippers. They make no secret out of why they would like to see men breast-feeding their babies: "Equality in parenthood." It's like these husbands of pregnant wives who strap something or other around their waists to "share" in what their wives are feeling.

In the long run, there is gender equality in store for each of us.

WTF:Posts some citations to back up there is more then a minimal benefit to BF.

glad to see more support for women who want to and can breastfeed. things seem to have changed from people wanting me to go hide when nursing baby #1 6 years ago to now when baby #2 can sit and eat where we happen to be. if only my mother would support the idea and not think it freakish to "still" be nursing an 8-month old.

and sometimes you get side benefits. needed to nurse my son while negotiating the purchase of a new car. we were in a quiet office so he started eating. sales manager came in to speed the car sale along and instead of getting me to agree to his too high price, he dropped the total by 4 grand (to a bit less than i planned to pay) just to get away from nursing baby (all the while baby and I were not exposed b/c baby was holding his stroller blanket).

WTF -- that hurt C.W.'s feelings.

Arlington Dad, Someone else had posted this earlier:

http://www.babycenter.com/expert/baby/babybreastfeed/8824.html

also, there was a recent story i saw on Yahoo news or something about a father in India who breastfed his infant child after the mother passed away-- he did it at first just to help stop the crying, and then he was surprized when he also started to produce milk.

Maybe this is all wrong-- can't believe everything you read, especially on the internet-- but on the other hand, the human body is truely amazing and the trend for life to find a way to continue on is remarkable! I guess i won't totally believe it until I see it with my own eyes, but on the other hand, there seems to be some fairly credible evidence that some men can breastfeed.

Sorry, yup, still flabbergasted. I teach calculus at a large state university, and am embarassed for the number of students who text during lecture. I ask them to leave, and they can return after meeting with me and apologizing. Where are these students going to learn to behave? Are they going to text during interviews or meetings at work?

I was also shocked that you find breastfeeding inappropriate for church, which should be about family.

To make this relevant, I had a student last semester who had mastitis and asked to breastfeed her baby during class, and did. I was impressed she didn't let it stop her attendance, and she was an excellent student.

According to my records on the Onbalance column

314 blog topics have been recorded.
84,617 posts have been submited.
2,146 posts contain the word "Breast" or " bf".

On the calendar year of 2006, 70 posts contained 'nazi"
This year, 2007 to date, the term "nazi" has appeared in 156 posts so far.

educmom

"In my opinion, his self-directed church attendance, at his age, mitigates his texting."

Is he texting that Jesus dude? Otherwise, there's no mitigation.

Scary. You are wise to keep that under wraps.

I agree somewhat with the cost breakdown of breastfeeding/pumping, although I used a borrowed pump and used few breastmilk bags - I expressed straight into the bottles. You're probably right that for the upper class the cost savings isn't enough, but I'm pretty solidly middle class, and $50/month makes a big difference - it's two boxes of diapers at Costco.

As I said, this is my first time here, I didn't realize most people were upper middle class. I suppose that changes the equation.

Jen S. -- I read the article on Scientific American (thank you to whomever posted the link). It cited a few very rare cases throughout history where men did indeed lactate. But the bottom line, is that it's possible but has only occurred in extremely rare cases. The way I read the article is that most men aren't built to nurse.

By the way, the "related articles" were all about the benefits of breastfeeding and potential downsides to formula (soy-based, specifically).

To the anon poster:

www.who.int/child-adolescent-health/NUTRITION/infant_exclusive.htm

www.aap.org/healthtopics/breastfeeding.cfm

www.uspharmacist.com/oldformat.asp?url=newlook/files/cons/acf2f78.htm

www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/Breastfeeding.cfm

There are many, many more. Now, your turn. Quote me some scientific articles that show formula is better than breastmilk.

Boo: I don't think everyone here is upper middle class. I just think people think that. But for a lot of people a difference of $600/year just isn't enough to justify the hassle of bf. Like I said I bf for 2 years because I loved it. Cost really wasn't the issue. Heck people pay more then $50/month for cable. I would think if FF was more convenient an additional $50/month is no biggie. But your right, for some people $50/month is two boxes of diapers and it means something to them. Sorry if I offended you.

To WAMC

Never say never. Once that baby comes out and you experience a surge of hormones and deep love for your baby, you just might decide to try to breastfeed.

And breastfeeding IS healthier for a baby, because breastmilk passes on antibodies found only in breastmilk. This cannot be replicated in formula.

Posted by: | June 27, 2007 09:00 AM

My baby came out, I felt a surge of hormones and a deep love for my baby and proceeded to feed her - with a bottle. How dare you suggest that only those mothers who breastfeed truly love their babies?

As to the rest of your comment, you're merely spouting off what you've read in parenting magazines and on blogs. Take a look at the actual research and you'll find the results show nothing more than that mixing formula with tainted water in Nigeria is a bad idea. Here's a news flash for you: before you make any parenting decisions, look behind the headlines and do some real investigating. Also consider reading something other than from sources that tell you what you want to hear and/or already believe.

WAMC - ignore the wenches and decide for yourself based on evidence and real data, not the politics of Lactation Consultants Are Us and its worshippers.

Dads can nurse? That changes the possibilities of this video:

http://www.dadlabs.com/fatherhood/dad_labs_breast_pump_101.html

Dads can pump, too!

I'm posting this for a laugh, really.

wow, GA mom sounds defensive

WTF:No one is saying FF is better the BF. We are saying BF is only a minimal benefit. There are no studies showing it is a huge benefit in the overall health for the child. Dude, take a breather. Why are you so uptight about this? If your happy lactating for your kid-great. Leave the rest of us alone.

Formula 100/month for 12 months=1200$
BF
good pump around 300
plastic bags to store milk around 12/month =72
extra calories needed to BF=approximately 300
Total savings $528 a year (that is a conservative estimate on food costs) Hard to really know how much people pay for food.

I guess is $528 enough money for the hassle for the middle and upper middle class? Definitely not enough for the rich to make it worth it.

Posted by: bf2years | June 27, 2007 10:22 AM

Don't forget the cost of nursing bras. And nursing pads. Wouldn't want to leak all over the place.

I have to agree with the person that said that children should be quiet during a phone interview. Actually, the phone interview should be conducted away from child. If husband is not able to be home then dont schedule interview for such a time. Tell husband that husband MUST be home by XX for phone interview.

My husband and I have three naughty dogs. When he has phone interviews he locks them in their crates or makes sure I am there to monitor them. you cant lock children up obviously but you can put yourself in a position where children wont be heard--period. I am not a big fan of children and it still annoys me that a local appraiser called me while her kid was talking in the background. We had business to discuss regarding a property husband and I were considering. The mere fact that this woman's attention was not directed 100% at me was irritating.

Some women also buy little sterilizing pads. But I did not include that because it seems optional. I think good old fashion soap and hot water works just as well.

HUH?:
There are lines in society. Eating in church, or feeding a baby (bottle or breast) is one step across the line. It has nothing to do with family values -- I am sure that's why churches all make provisions for families with young children to take part in worship, such as crying rooms, nurseries and the like.

Son attended a school which did not allow cell phones to be carried during the day. He was perfectly fine.
He does not text during conversations, during dinners, or at other times when it might be seen as rude.
He will not text in class, and I hope he is reprimanded if he does.

Please explain to me how it is inappropriate for your students to have electronic distractions, but appropriate for a student to come to a calculus class with a baby. That puzzles me. When my son is sitting in his college calculus class, I certainly hope another student has not brought his or her toddler to class -- I'm sure he would find that to be a supreme distraction!

By the way, how many of your students come to class with laptops? I am taking a summer class to receive a second certification, and it is an undergraduate level class. More than half the students (who all seem to be younger than 20) have laptops, and they spend their time surfing the Web, sending e-mails and having IM conversations during class. I did not see this behavior in the master's program I recently completed. How do you handle that?

Boo

"50/month makes a big difference - it's two boxes of diapers at Costco."

Disposable diapers are really bad for the environment!

Arlington Dad, I just read that Scientific American article too-- isn't it amazing? Learn something new everyday . . .

anyway, I don't know what "related articles" you are referring to-- are they in the Scientific american article? Or the Babycenter.com article? Or something else? and in any case are you directing me to them or someone else? Just a bit confused here!

Is he texting that Jesus dude? Otherwise, there's no mitigation.

Posted by: | June 27, 2007 10:30 AM

Well, he says that he is...but somehow I don't think that Jesus set up his tee time or has tips for his fantasy football lineup.

So if I get myself dressed and drive myself to church, is it okay with you if I breastfeed my infant there?

educmom: My Canadian friend became a young mother at age 19. She took her daughter to university classes till she finished. I was shocked how well behaved her two year old could be. My kid would be a raving maniac. But I guess some kids are just quiet and easily amused. I think it was awesome if it was not a distraction to the other students and the prof. It allowed her to get her degree at the normal age and further her education to help raise her daughter. Now at 29, she is married with another daughter and has a masters degree in accounting. Owns her own home and enjoys an upper middle class life. I am sure the ability to bring her daughter to class made a difference. She was just lucky she had her kid and not mine. :)

More of the story. The interviewer called me "out of the blue" and asked to speak to me about the position I applied for. I told her I was at home with my daughter and she said she just had a few questions. So, maybe i should have been more assertive and asked her to call me back at my convenience.

Jen S. -- the related articles were on the Scientic American article. That was more a general comment to the list about what time of BF information is on a reputable, scientific, non-mommy-centered site.

When my son was a baby, I breast fed him. I could have feed every baby in town, I joked that you could call me Elsie. Anyway, I had so much extra milk, I called the local hospital and asked if they could use it. I was told no, because of the fears of passing on an illness or some drug in my milk to an infant. So instead I pumped and dumped bottles of milk down the drain. When I stopped breast feeding I had a month's worth of milk in the freezer.

"So my question is whether we are promoting this because we truly think it's best for the child's health (in which case, we need to consider some of the things I raised earlier) or because a small number of people and organizations are on an "everyone must be breastfed" kick. "

Sometimes it's because a baby who is exclusively breastfed doesn't take a bottle easily, so it's a matter of convenience and comfort in the even to an unexpected or forced separation. For example, one mother I know of was hospitalized unexpectedly for several days and several friends helped nurse the baby who was refusing a bottle (she'd never had one before) and already under a lot of stress from the separation.

Educmom! The student has mastitis! It is incredibly painful and the best "cure" for it is continuous breastfeeding! Ican't believe you would denigrate a woman not only trying to feed her infant but also trying to treat a very dangerous conditionin the best way possible while continuing her education!! I'm sure no one even noticed or if they did, they were probably impressed by her dedication to her health, her education and to her child.

and for it is worth, at my church women breastfeed right there in their regular pew-- they are discrete and it is not offensive to anyone-- certainly not to God! Geez!

Foamgnome,
My kids would have been, uh, less than silent and unobtrusive as well. It realy does depend on the child -- your friend was lucky in that respect.

educmom:She did not BF her daughter in school. I think because of the timing of when her daughter was born and when fall classes started, she had already been weaned (sp?). But it was amazing that she could finish and her kid was so well behaved. She always jokes with her daughter that she already has a BA degree. She just needs to turn 22 to get it.

I don't allow laptops in my class either. Why would a student need a laptop to learn calculus?

Yes, I allowed a single mother with a very young child (2mo) who needed to nurse for medical reasons to bring her very quiet child into class, under the assumption that she would remove him if he made noise. The child was not a toddler. After the fact, I discussed this with my department chair, who fully agreed with my decision, and not one student complained.

It's easy to support mothers who are married and have plenty of money and resources. I was supporting a young single woman who decided to keep her child and get an education. Frankly, I'd allow it for any woman who was trying to get an education and be a mother. I would hope that most people would be okay with that.

Another busy day today, so I'll just reiterate my opinion: I'm all for breastfeeding, wherever, whenever, and if I'm in a restaurant with you, flop it out and nurse away (please cover yourself up, though). I'll just politely point my eyes at your forehead.

I don't think I'd ever wet-nurse for anyone, though, unless I adopted an infant. I guess in a dire emergency, I could get over the "yuk" factor and handle it, but in general, I probably wouldn't "trade babies."

How cute is baby when he or she is done nursing? Mom pulls him up off her breast, and he has that calm, contented, glassy-eyed look of satisfaction. I love that.

"because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty, who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb."

Genesis 49:25, NIV

God understands if you breastfeed in church. But he might not forgive others' intolerance of it.

Jen S:
I'm not denigrating anyone. I feel sorry for anyone with a painful medical condition (I'm not familiar with mastitis). Foamgnome's friend notwithstanding, it is generally distracting to bring a child into an arena where children are usually not seen. What did the baby do when not nursing -- one would hope sleep, but I don't know what happened.

I have attended several churches over the years (we moved a lot) and I have never seen anyone nurse in the sanctuary during Mass -- although I have seen plenty of women doing so in the crying room, whether they sat there the entire Mass or took a baby there when it started to wiggle and prepare to fuss. Do those parents who nurse in church have a pantry in their purses for the older siblings?

Do those parents who nurse in church have a pantry in their purses for the older siblings?

Posted by: educmom | June 27, 2007 11:02 AM

They do in my church. Some parents come so loaded down with sippy cups, snacks, toys, books etc...

Arlington Dad, that post made me smile. I love that sated baby look.

Just to let you know my personal position about breastfeeding. Of course I support breastfeeding wholeheartedly but I am satisfied that I have done my job in respect to child nutrition when:

1. The baby is thriving
2. The mother is happy

Frankly, I'd allow it for any woman who was trying to get an education and be a mother. I would hope that most people would be okay with that.

What about a father who had no one to watch the baby?

Let me say this once more, very clearly, then I'm done:

Don't snack in church! Don't let your kids snack in church! No sippy cups, no juice boxes, no bottles, no breasts, no cheerios, no animal crackers, no dried bananas, no apple slices, no pbj squares -- NO FOOD!! If it's inappropriate to eat anything else in church, then nursing is also inappropriate. It has nothing to do with the nursing aspect -- it all has to do with the eating aspect!

I won't argue that scientifically - breast milk is suppose to be better for your kids. But formula is also fine as well. My kids developed just fine; there was no harm done to them. Or myself as I was also formula fed. It is not fair though that my kids hear "your mom didn't love you enough or care for you enough since she didn't breastfeed you". Or that I hear that. I love my kids from the bottom of my heart and I made the best decision for our personal situation and they did just fine.

I respect people on either decision they make as far as method of feeding their child. Each person makes the best decision for their particular situation.

I mean, it's one hour!

educmom: OK, I have to ask you why your against eating in church? What is more communal then sharing a meal. I mean the eucharist in itself is sharing a meal. I guess the point should be: If you are going to eat in church, bring enough for everyone.

Oh, I wasn't offended. Maybe my husband and I do overanalyze the cost benefit of things with our children - the first year seems so expensive. I remember buying that first gallon of whole milk for my son on his first birthday - woo woo!!!!!!!!!!!!! I had to pick up my running schedule though, since I wasn't burning the extra calories from breastfeeding.

For what it's worth, if people don't want to breastfeed, then don't. It's such a personal decision.

MMMM,the Last supper . . .

Don't snack in church! Don't let your kids snack in church! No sippy cups, no juice boxes, no bottles, no breasts, no cheerios, no animal crackers, no dried bananas, no apple slices, no pbj squares -- NO FOOD!!

It's none of your business what other people do in church. Are you there to worship or are you there to criticize a mother or father trying to keep their kids in check. If you pay attention to the service, you won't notice little Johnny eating (gasp) a cracker.

To ChrEliz,

Your post is about the best statement on public bf-ing I've ever seen.

Usually, the bf-ing discussions on this blog deteriorate into snark-fests between the self-righteous (bf-ing moms) and the indignant (offended bystanders), both sides insisting that their rights are being trampled on.

Your post, in contrast, offers a rational and truly balanced view of the whole issue. I don't see how anyone on either side of the argument could disagree with anything you've said.

Of course, knowing this blog...

Educmom, while I agree about not eating in church during mass/service (generally speaking, except during communion), I don't think breastfeeding an infant counts. Infants need to nurse very frequently. Would you have the same problem with it if someone gave their baby a bottle in church?

"I mean, it's one hour!"

I think part of the argument here is that one hour to a breastfeeding baby is very different than one hour to an older child or an adult who eats solid food. First, breastmilk is highly digestible, which is why breastfeeding infants need to eat much more often than children eating solids or even babies eating formula. Second, infants do not have the self control to ignore their hunger in the way we expect adults and older children to do. A hungry infant, breastfed or otherwise, is going to cry, and an expectation that they will not is unrealistic. I don't have an opinion about eating in church, but I do think it's unrealistic to say there's no difference between asking a five year old to wait to eat and asking an infant to wait.

Just to let you know, not all churchs services are one hour. Ours is close to 3 hours long.

It is not fair though that my kids hear "your mom didn't love you enough or care for you enough since she didn't breastfeed you".

C.W. -- who said this?

It is not fair though that my kids hear "your mom didn't love you enough or care for you enough since she didn't breastfeed you".

I really don't know what circle you run in, but I have never heard that statement before. And if your kids are hearing that- I think it's time to find new people to associate with!

C.W., that's a terrible thing for someone to say to you or your children. If you post the phone number of whoever said it, I'll give him/her a call and a piece of my mind for you, and I bet a few others on this blog will, too. :)

I've never been asked by a father to bring a child into class, but I suppose (as with the mother) I would consider it on a case-by-case basis. Why wouldn't I? I'm a father, I understand the challenges.

I did allow a make-up exam for a father with a premature baby. His wife delivered 8 weeks early, and he didn't want to leave her alone and the family was far away.

It's not a contest between mothers and fathers. Parents have a particularly difficult time in school, and I respect those who try to continue their education. I'm at a traditional four-year institution, so the parents I encounter with challenges in class have children who were unplanned. These students tend to be very focused.

On another note, my church does not have a cry room, and even if it did, I do not support sequestering breastfeeding women. I'm Catholic, and if my church is against birth control and abortion, they should support families.

It is not fair though that my kids hear "your mom didn't love you enough or care for you enough since she didn't breastfeed you".

My sister heard this from several Nursing Nazis. Would you like their numbers?

CW, what an awful thing for someone to say to you or your kids.

11:26 anon: yes, I would, actually. Someone clearly needs to give them a ticket for a ride on the clue bus.

at our church generally only infants are in the pews-- when they are toddlers they are generally left in the nursery and when older they go to sunday school classes. So there isn't any "snacking" going on, just occasional breastfeeding, which I don't think it as distracting as eating and drinking because it doesn't make a lot of noise or create spills and crumbs.

If the baby does start to make distracting noises, one parent will quickly leave and take the child to the nursery. Parents can also leave babies there from the very beginning of the service, if they so choose.

i once attended a Catholic mass at a small church that didn't have a nursery of any kind and we sat in the back pew with our baby. I can't recall if I breastfed or not, but I do recall that a father had to get up and leave at one point because his toddler was being a being disruptive. Wasn't a big deal.

oops! forget to mention that the father was took the toddler with him!
I think the only reason I remember this is because I am always on the lookout for ideas on how to discipline disruptive toddlers.

I am Catholic. I used to sit in the crying room when my daughter was an infant. And yes, I did nurse her there. It did not seem to bother anyone else. When she was old enough to go to the nursery, we sent her there (with a ton of snacks and drinks). No one every complained that she eats there. She won't attend services till she can sit semi quietly. I don't think that will be for another two years. She will go to nursery Sunday school at age 4. I figure I would send her with snacks there too. I am still surprised educmom has a problem with this. Because in our nursery, they will even provide a snack if you want.

"They do in my church. Some parents come so loaded down with sippy cups, snacks, toys, books etc... "

I spend the entire time of the service craving a cigarette and dying for a drink! If I can wait, these spawn can wait, too!

I spend the entire time of the service craving a cigarette and dying for a drink! If I can wait, these spawn can wait, too!

Posted by: | June 27, 2007 11:34 AM

Maybe you should pray for patience.

I wasn't sure if DD would want to nurse. She loved it and we did it for 14 months. I was not working outside the home and every penny saved then did help.

The other night I was in the playground with 5 year DD and two other moms. I was unusual because I nursed and did not have a c-section. All the children were happy, well fed, and loved, and that is what matters.

I do not let DD eat during our religous services. They have a snack for kids right after it is over. I probably would have nursed if we had gone at the age because she would not have been able to ask for anything. I keep the same rule for the metro. I nursed on the metro but now no eating or drinking on the metro.
Even I am carrying water we stop before and once we out of the metro rail she can drink to her heart's content.

I (heart) Blog Stats.

What fun! More, more, more!

One example is when my younger sister-in-law had her kids and she was explaining to my children that breast feeding was the best thing you can do for your kids and how good it was for them, etc. etc. She knew my kids were formula fed. My kids questioned my decision to formula feed them and why didn't I care enough for them to breast feed considering all the benefits. It really put me on the spot and it did give my children a time of reflection thinking I'd failed them somehow.

One of the reasons my sister-in-law breast fed is because she is basically flat chested and she actually had breasts during this stage and she relished that. Not all intentions of breast feeding are related to the well fare of the children.

BTW, her two kids. One is very small for his age; her daughter is overweight. They are 9 and 10 years old now. Not saying breast feeding was not the ultimate for "her situation"; however, as I stated before my kids turned out developmentally just fine.

I don't really care one way or the other about breast feeding. Do it, don't do it, who cares. It's your body and your baby. Why should I be so concerned because other people don't want to breast feed?

On the eating in church issue, I don't pay much attention to that either. I don't leave my daughter in the nursery because I don't know the people in there. We do usually go to the cry room and I bring snacks, usually fruit snacks. I have no problem with a woman breastfeeding. I am Catholic but only go to church a couple times a month. I just really don't feel the need to pay that much attention to what other people do unless they are hurting someone.

cw is very defensive, also your post about your sister wanting to bf because of her breast size is a joke. Noone would go through nursing for that, no matter how flat you are. And don't be to smug about your kids being healthy because chances are they'll suffer later in life from your "choice" to formula feed.

"I just really don't feel the need to pay that much attention to what other people do unless they are hurting someone."

But, Scarry, that's just so....reasonable! How on earth will we have anything to fight over this way? :)

I think it's gross to breastfeed someone else's kid. However, my husband sees nothing wrong with it. He wonders why people think it's so gross yet they'll drink cow's milk. Why don't people get grossed out by the act of drinking milk from another animal??? :)

And don't be to smug about your kids being healthy because chances are they'll suffer later in life from your "choice" to formula feed.

Now who is being smug? You sound like an idiot.

"And don't be to smug about your kids being healthy because chances are they'll suffer later in life from your "choice" to formula feed."

The above is why you are known as a Nursing Nazi!

cw is very defensive, also your post about your sister wanting to bf because of her breast size is a joke. Noone would go through nursing for that, no matter how flat you are. And don't be to smug about your kids being healthy because chances are they'll suffer later in life from your "choice" to formula feed.

Posted by: | June 27, 2007 11:46 AM

Not sure why you view my response as defensive; just presenting the situation as it was/is. And you are right - her sole decision to breast feed was NOT that it increased her size and kept her large. But it was part of her inspiration. That is no joke.

C.W. --

"when my younger sister-in-law had her kids and she was explaining to my children that breast feeding was the best thing you can do for your kids and how good it was for them, etc. etc"

is NOT the same things as

""your mom didn't love you enough or care for you enough since she didn't breastfeed you"."

"Why should I be so concerned because other people don't want to breast feed?"

1. Because breastmilk is healthiest for human babies. Society ultimately pays when there is a higher incidence of allergies in children and minor problems with babies such as constipation and intolerance to milk based formulas. The more trips to the doctor and the more medications needed by our society results in increased health care costs to us all.

2. Because breastfeeding is healthy for mothers. Breastfeeding moms experienced a decreased risk for breast cancer. See above.

3. Because formula feeding is not good for the environment. The disposal of formula cans, the impact of producing formula, the disposable bottles - all of those things ultimately effect ALL of us.

4. Because some people just inherently care about the health of other human beings, even aside from the cost to society.

Boob feeders and religious kooks on the sameday; what a big yawn!!

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Boob feeders and religious kooks on the sameday; what a big yawn!!

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Y'all cut C.W. some slack.

and
"...also your post about your sister wanting to bf because of her breast size is a joke."

I would not be that quick to call it a joke. I personally know women (not speaking on behalf of Frieda here) who were, ah, delighted with their new figures however temporary the change was.

As far as eating/breastfeeding in Church, I think it completely depends upon your religion and the atmosphere of your particular services. In mine, we had a crying room (not sure about nursery, but think that is a great idea) and I got agitated when people had whiney/talking/crying young children in the pews and were too lazy to either take them out or take them into the crying room. Personally, I wanted the service to be quiet and non-distracting so I could focus on prayer and meditation.

Food in the pews bothers me a little because small children tend to be messy, and for *my* service I think it's important to fast until communion. However, I also understand that small children aren't making a conscious choice to worship and that parents can't always get sitters or leave children at home when they go and so if the child can eat somewhere (nursery sounds great!) quietly and out of the way, good for them. I think if your child can't sit through service you really should try to not make them go, but I understand this isn't an option for everyone. I think my church had some kind of nursery where small children were read stories during service in another room completely and would recommend that until the child can be quiet and obedient.

As far as the older child texting, I think that if he is old enough to drive himself to church he's old enough to decide how he worships and if the texting doesn't bother anyone sitting next to him (or distract) it's his perogative. We all worship in different ways and it's rude to assume he is denigrating his religion or church simply by sending the occasional text message.

To educmom - I see kids in my lectures all the time texting and goofing around on their laptops. While in some ways, yeah, it bothers me, I also appreciate that these slacker students are bringing down the curve for students like myself who study hard, listen, and pay attention. I've never had a professor forbid them. I think unless the behavior is truly distracting to the class as the whole, the lecturer can put up with it. Afterall, these students are PAYING (or their parents are) for this class and if they want to waste it by instant messaging the whole way through let them. It's college and time for hand holding is over. Plus I think it gives a stronger edge to those students who would be more diligent on their own. Just my opinion.

My mom tried to BF with my oldest sister. Managed to pop a blood vessels to the point blood was gushing, and my sister was vomiting it up. She never BF another of us (6 kids in total). Too traumatic for her.

RE: allergies - Mom has significant allergies to pretty much everything. Only one kid has mild seasonal allergies, the rest of us are a-ok and are all adults now.

"3. Because formula feeding is not good for the environment. The disposal of formula cans, the impact of producing formula, the disposable bottles - all of those things ultimately effect ALL of us."

Yet most of you use disposable diapers!!

I think it's gross to breastfeed someone else's kid. However, my husband sees nothing wrong with it. He wonders why people think it's so gross yet they'll drink cow's milk. Why don't people get grossed out by the act of drinking milk from another animal??? :)

Posted by: Kimmy | June 27, 2007 11:48 AM

Because my lips aren't on the utter of the cow? ;) Cow's milk usually cle