Should be an interesting discussion today!

I couldn't agree with you more. Women are entirely capable of making the right decision for themselves and their families and that might be having an abortion. Not only does she (alone) know what it might mean to go through nine months of pregnancy but also what another child might mean. It is an insult for men - especially politicians, preachers, and judges - and other women - to be so arrogant to "deem" women as incapable of making our own decisions. Women who agree with these men are inevitably the same kind who accept being oppressed and subjugated to abuse from men. Don't listen, ladies, to anyone except your own mind and heart. Thanks for writing this.

I hesitate to even comment here since I know I'll be in the minority, but I disagree with Mimi that "women who agree with mean are inevitably the same kind who accept being oppressed and subjugated to abuse from men." I am pro-life and I would never, ever describe myself as oppressed and subjugated to abuse from men. I *have* listened to my own mind and heart and I disagree with abortion. I believe more dialogue is needed between the two sides and making such demeaning sweeping generalizations is not constructive.

OT: To MN: This was in regards to yesterday's discussion of name changes. You missed the original question that I was responding. CMAC asked why do women with MBAs always have a dual last name or a hypenated name? Not why do women choose not to change their names. So your answer of I didn't want to change my name because that is who I have always been, does not apply. Because to have a non birth given dual name or hypenated name means you made an active choice to change it. Do you see the difference. So my reply was it is generally because of professional reasons or because they are strong feminists (which I don't think is a slam-anyway). It was talking about a professional arena. Again, sorry if you were offended. I then ammended my statement that some women probably take on the second last name due to cultural or ethnic ties. But simply keeping the same birth given name is not the same, as you noted late in the day, as taking on a second last name.

Don't forget the movie "Vera Drake" where an abortionist goes to jail after someone she works on with a rubber tube ends up at a hospital and she's found out.

Where is Hollywood showing women in bathrooms bleeding to death after self-inflicted attempts at abortion? I guess I've missed those movies because they're in the HORROR section.

I do not think that abortion is necessarily the right thing to do but I believe it should be a woman's choice and that no woman should die because it is not available to them.

We'll all be taken to task for the deeds of our lives, but forcing women into back rooms and bathrooms to die doesn't give a woman a life to do her work in.

I just lost what little respect I had for Leslie -- her share of "scares" over the years??????? Geez, what is this, high school??? Isn't she "Ivy league" educated? I guess the tuition costs didn't include common sense. I'm in my late 30's, married with 2 kids, and I've never had a "scare."

Birth control is very effective these days -- USE IT!!!!!!

"Most working women (at least the sexually active ones) need birth control, including abortion, to plan their careers -- sometimes, you need to say "no" to motherhood in order to build your reputation, get more training or an advanced degree, accept a promotion, or simply to work very hard for a certain period of time"

Maybe this is true for professional, ladder-climbing women, but most working women in this country have jobs, not careers.

The Post online will be getting their money's worth out of you today, that's for certain.

"It is an insult for men - especially politicians, preachers, and judges - and other women - to be so arrogant to "deem" women as incapable of making our own decisions. Women who agree with these men are inevitably the same kind who accept being oppressed and subjugated to abuse from men."

You know, it is entirely possible for reasonable people - men and women - to think that life begins at the moment of conception, and that abortion is therefore murder. I don't agree with it, but I certainly think that these people are entitled to their beliefs, and I would never call them arrogant or subjugated.

Wow, today is going to be a hot topic. I have to say I have mixed feelings about abortion. On some level, abortion is really a tragic way to deal with family planning. I really would rather support other family planning methods such as the pill, condoms, vasectomies etc... But in the case of BC failing or not using, an unwanted pregnancy is a total disservice to the mother, father, and the subsequent child. I never did understand why anyone would want more unwanted children in the world. In the best case scenario every child conceived would be healthy and wanted. But we all know that is not reality. The last thing in this world that we need is more unwanted, abused, neglected, and emotionally resented children. On the other hand, I do think it is a really sad statement that professional married middle class women would consider an abortion because it was the right time, or not the ideal family size that they had envisioned, or god forbid because they would have to forego a promotion or moving up the career ladder. My husband and I have decided to have one child for a number of reasons (and money is the least of it). Time issues, the complications of life, advanced maternal age, and our daughter having significant learning disabilities at this stage have rendered our decision to have a small family of three. But if by the grace of God, we were sent another child, we would accept our second child into our home with loving arms. Yes, our lives would be incredibly hectic and probably not ideal for any of the four people involved. Yes, DH would probably have to scale back his career options. Yes, we would probably have to rethink fully funding both kids for college and vacationing every year. But those are things that you do to make your family work-IMHO. I totally recongize that a women has a LEGAL and MORAL right to control her own family size. I just think it is sad that is one reason for abortion. I totally understand abortion because you just can't financially support a child or another child. I totally understand abortion if you feel you would actually be a detriment in a child's life (abuse, mental illness, your dying etc...). I totally understand abortion in cases of rape and incest (you never consented to having the child in the first place). I totally understand abortion for very young mothers who are frankly too immature to raise a child. With great difficulty, I understand abortion if the fetus has major problems. But to have an abortion because you think you want to move up the career ladder or it doesn't match your ideal vision of your family, is really sad statement on today's values-IMHO. Again, I in no way support limiting a women's right to abortion. In fact, I strongly support making abortion, legal, safe and available to all who choose it. I just have a moment of saddness of why it is being used. I hope I don't offend anyone here. That is not my intention.

And Leslie continues the string of feminist topics that having nothing to do with balance.

And Leslie continues the string of feminist topics that having nothing to do with balance.

Posted by: ugh | June 13, 2007 07:33 AM
Actually if you read her blog today it was about balance. She is talking about using abortion as a way to balance your life to advance your career or balance your family. You need to read a little more carefully.

Didn't Christina from "Grey'a Anatomy" have an abortion? That's one show where there wasn't a convenient miscarriage. I also find it interesting that the character who had the abortion with no apparent lingering negative effects was the character who was most career-driven.

I have a friend who planned to have an abortion. As she was preparing to go to the clinic for the procedure, she decided she couldn't go through with it and cancelled. She ended up giving birth to twins. Talk about an unplanned pregnancy throwing your life out of balance !!!. She married the father when the twins were about three. SEveral years have passed and she is now the happy SAHM of three.

Of course, she didn't have a wonderful career to give up, just a job, but I can't imagine any career that would make her happier than she has been. YMMV

Foamgnome, this is a followup from yesterday-- I actually live down the street from the Walkers! That is, the folks who changed their last name to Walker since they both love walking. Their daughter is my daughters' best friend.

Maybe there are two families who have done this, but I prefer to think that it's one of those "small world" things.

How very sad this column makes me. And this is such a difficult topic precisely because so many people and their partners and mother's friends have had abortions--and people very much want to justify their own actions. I feel profoundly sorry for girls who get abortions, partly because they have been misled by people like your mother's friend.

To snuff out a human life because you want to advance in your career? Or because you don't want to inconvenience yourself? Plenty of people are "at peace" with all kinds of awful things they do, partly because they are told by others they look up to and admire that those things are perfectly fine. Abortion is not perfectly fine, it is crime against a defenseless life. Please stop perpetuating the idea that it is fine--like being the cool girl who smokes at school, you give other girls around you the idea that it is fine, when in fact it is very harmful.

Most of all--could you please give some thought to the baby and your responsibility to it? Babies are rarely convenient, but I know several women who had babies in difficult circumstances, before they were married, and their lives and the lives of their children are wonderful and they will go to their grave knowing they did the right thing. Not the expedient selfish thing.

Christina from "Grey's Anatomy" miscarried while working in an OR.

need birth control, including abortion, to plan their careers

That line literally made me choke. Talking about abortion as birth controll is apalling. We are not some third world country where women have to use abortion as such. The thought that women would be using abortion to advance their careers only reinforces ever single negative sterotype about working women. Disgusting and I'm pro-choice.

7:22, Leslie may just have a more irregular period than you. "Scares" can just be when your period is late. I have had more than one scare even though I am always very careful with birth control, just because of the irregularity of my period.

There are two unaddressed issues in this article. One is that no distinction is made between early abortion (including use of RU-486) and late abortion. Many states in the US are very tolerant of late abortions, but it is hard to see them as a matter of pure choice.

Secondly, many men get married in part or even largely in order to have children. In such a case it is hard for a married woman to ethically argue, "It is MY body and MY choice." Preferably such issues should be discussed before marriage, but since men can only be fathers with the co-operation of women, it seems wrong to say, "Men have no rights in this matter." It should be a case of respecting everyone's rights. At the least a man whose wife has an abortion he does not agree with should have the option of a divorce without costly penalties on him.

Now that I have mentioned my reservations, I do agree that choice is sometimes the right way. But it must be a choice which respects the rights of others.

The reason we see so few characters on TV shows choosing abortion is because surprise pregnancies have to be written into scripts when series actresses intentionally get pregnant in real life. Only a few series characters are pregnant when the actresses palying them aren't. Bea Arthur's character of Maude, who was 48, was the one major show where a lead character had an abortion. But that was back in the 70s when the memories of unsafe back-alley abortions were still fresh.

Foamgnome, this is a followup from yesterday-- I actually live down the street from the Walkers! That is, the folks who changed their last name to Walker since they both love walking. Their daughter is my daughters' best friend.

Maybe there are two families who have done this, but I prefer to think that it's one of those "small world" things.

Posted by: Neighbor | June 13, 2007 07:40 AM

OMG, that is funny. I love the idea but DH wouldn't go for it. We love dancing, so I guess we would have been the Dancers.

7:49, Amen, sister!!!!

I admit that I am completely shocked that a mother with 3 children could even consider abortion. I used to be neutral to abortion, I even drove my best friend to have one during college, but since I've had my own children, my mind has completely changed. I don't understand how a woman can watch a child's heartbeat on a sonogram, feel it grow inside you and then terminate it, because it wasn't convenient for the family, or your career. What if she had felt that way with one of her other children? What if your mother felt that way about you?

As for how the entertainment industry is portraying abortion, I believe that ultimately people will realize that abortion is no different than throwing a newborn baby in a trashcan, and maybe hollywood is ahead of the curve on the issue.

We have changed as a society. NO woman needs to die from a bakcstreet abortion today, and that IS progress.

Until all are wanted, and there are homes for all children, we do need abortion. It is the individual's choice.

I have never had an abortion. Knowing it is availble to me, should the need arise, is a comfort. I am very small, and not formed correctly internally. To become pregnant would be to lose my life, and the child's. Am I never to have a normal relationship with my husband? We are normal, I do use birth control, but sometimes mistakes happen.

This comment is a bit tangential, but...

There was an episode of "Third Watch" several years ago in which one of the women (a cop, whose character's name I can't recall) chose to have an abortion. It was a fascinating episode.

It's true that in the movie "Knocked Up," there is no serious discussion of Allison getting an abortion, but interestingly, it's her mother who advises her to get one, not her friends or the father of the baby. But in defense of the near absence of abortion discussion in the movie, it's a comedy whose premise doesn't work if there's an abortion.

What was more interesting about the film is that when Allison's bosses actually find out she's pregnant (7-8 months or so in), she is actually rewarded in her job. So in the end, any work-life balance issue is totally glossed over. That, more than the absence of abortion talk, is the glaring "failure" of this film to deal with the reality of women's lives.

I got pregnant while using an IUD as birth control. One month it was there, the next month it wasn't and I was pregnant. Imagine my shock and surprise! Birth control is not fool proof and all methods fail some of the time. We had a young child at the time and ended up with 2 under 2 -- not what I would have planned. I adore our 2nd child, but there are moments when I secretly wish we just had one. Things are hectic in our lives and this was absolutely not how I'd imagined things would be. But sometimes you have to take the unexpected and be thankful.

In the movie "Fast times at Ridgemont High" one of the girls had an abortion after getting pregnant the 2nd time she had sex. I can't think of another movie where an abortion was mentioned, though.

It's a personal decision, and a woman's choice. Even in the case mentioned above (married couple), it's ultimately the woman's choice because it is HER body.

The Christina character on Grey's Anatomy had scheduled an abortion but fainted while observing a surgery (performed by the father who had just dumped her) and was it was discovered that she had an ectopic pregnancy so she had emergency surgery. Later her again boyfriend asked what she was going to do and she told him about the planned abortion and he said ok. So the show writers got to go right up to the line and then not cross it and risk losing viewers.

Carrie Bradshaw on Sex and the City mentioned that she had had an abortion when she was about 20 years old.

If Leslie had become pregnant by her wife beater husband, her story might be different.

We do not live in the 19th century today. We don't need 8 kids to work farms (the priamry source of income in this country in the 1800s), nor is infant mortality an accepted, expected fact.

Far better to have as many children as you'd like, and when you'd like to give them the best start possible in life. I do believe abortion is a sad event, but should be a woman's choice.

We do not live in the 19th century today. We don't need 8 kids to work farms (the primary source of income in this country in the 1800s), nor is infant mortality an accepted, expected fact.

Far better to have as many children as you'd like, and when you'd like to give them the best start possible in life. I do believe abortion is a sad event, but should be a woman's choice.

I am glad Leslie's friend's mother had a brave face for her abortion confession, but she will never know if this woman suffered in private. Too many woman publicly express that it is "no big deal" to have an abortion then spend their lives struggling with the decision and unfortunately regretting it. The woman that brought about Roe v. Wade regretted her decision 25 years later and is now pro-life.

Leslie's column gives the impression that this is an easy decision when justified, but just the opposite is true, it is one of the hardest decisions a woman will make even under the best circumstances. Please do not make light of the abortion issue with comparisons to Hollyweird movies, it dilutes the conversation.

There is a BIG difference between getting a abortion when you are 17 and when you are 33 in a stable committed relationship. I want another child like I want a hole in my head, but if I accidentally got pregnant I would most certainly have the child. It is a serious serious thing to do and not something that should be used as a convenience.

"The message from the movies is clear: Here's another real-life subject that women (and presumably, men) are not supposed to discuss publicly"

Abortion is discussed and occurs in a number of movies (too many to list here).

Peyton Place
Godfather II

Here is a list:

http://www.imdb.com/keyword/abortion/

Carrie was 22 when she had her abortion. Samantha said she'd had 2.

read Bernard Nathanson's book, Hand of God. He aborted his own child and says he is responsible for tens of thousands of abortions. He says that having sonogram technology changed his mind. Human life begins at conception. check out human embryology websites and medical textbooks.
Open your eyes to the facts. some of you are advocating killing a life for your own convenience.

I agree with 7:49 that Leslie's phrase "have an abortion to plan their careers" is both horrifying and very telling about feminists today. This posting could have been titled "Is a career worth butchering a child over?" but of course instead Leslie goes with the angle that terminating life is all about life-style "choice." Also telling are comments by other posters that only a "wanted child" should live. Cold-blooded, sickening, and utterly selfish.

"To become pregnant would be to lose my life"

If sex is going to kill you, I suggest you avoid it.

My only comment to those having strong anti-abortion standpoints is that no one is forcing you to have one. Your viewpoint however would force a potentially life threatening event on another human being. Do you play Russian Roulette also? I do not think that anyone goes through an abortion easily. Most agonize over the decision. While Leslie's friend may have no regrets over the decision she made, she probably had to think before she acted. Why demean the decision making capacity of women, over this most intimate decision? You can make your own decision about what you would do, fitting with your own moral standing--respect another's right to do the same.

A lot of women are relieved when they get abortions.

I agree with Middle. When I was in high school and college I thought abortion was a sad thing, but supported a woman's right to choose.

Having my own children changed that. I can tell you unconditionally that having them has slowed my career, even changed its course, and that they were in no way convenient or financially easy. But they are my greatest and most profound joy.

After having my first, I would cry if I saw something on the news where a child had been hurt or killed. The thought of abortion now causes that same visceral reaction.

Before, I was a vague feminist, yet had a nagging fear that I wasn't as good as the guys. Now I feel the opposite, and pity the poor guys, who just never know what it is to have the power to bring life into the world. I support womens rights much more vocally now and am much happier and more confident as a woman.

It truly is a tragedy that some women feel they have to end another person's life. Having an abortion out of concern for your life or safety is one thing. Having it because a baby would be inconvenient or might slow your career down is horrific. No one should ever put up with a career that would make them do that. That, it seems to me, is a life that offers you very little real choice.

The Claire character on Six Feet Under had an abortion (somewhere around season 4, I guess). And a substancial part of the actual process was even depicted (the trip to the clinic, her getting ready, the choice of anesthaetics, etc.)

"So why can't we -- or don't we -- talk openly about the tradeoffs of keeping or ending a pregnancy, whether our feelings are painful, matter-of-fact, or somewhere in between?"

My observation is that most of us don't talk openly about this issue because it is so controversial and we are afraid that it would offend others and draw lots of heated debate. It's a very emotional issue for most people, and people usually feel very strongly pro-choice or pro-life. Same goes for Hollywood -- I suspect if a producer decided to work in an abortion into a major story line, that producer and perhaps the cast and production company would be sharply criticized (and perhaps boycotted) by lots of organizations and the producer/cast/etc. would risk alienating a lot of moviegoers.

I also think that the "abortion for balance" issue would upset even some of the staunch pro-choice people, as evidenced by some of the posts this morning.

Regarding "scares" or unintentional pregnancies -- I know many smart women who've gotten pregnant or experienced late/missed periods even when on reliable methods like the pill.

As for me, my two Ivy League degrees did not include family planning (probably should have). No doctor ever talked to me about birth control and my own mother was raised in an era and culture where you didn't talk openly about the nitty gritty of a woman's plumbing. I did not understand that the menstrual cycle starts the day you get your period until AFTER I had my first child (I thought you started counting 7 days after your period).

Go figure! I thought I had it all figured out and it wasn't until I was in my 30s that I even had a chance of understanding the "rhythm method" of birth control. Even in our open country, many many women and teenage girls know far less than people assume. And even if you understand more than I did, you still can get pregnant by accident -- and you need a solution.

I just can't weigh in here on right or wrong. It is a personal decision and thank the gods that it can be done in a safe and protected environment. I never want to be in someone else's shoes who has to make the decision, because make no mistake, it would be the hardest decision you have make in your life.

It's all well and good to say abortion is available and legal in the US, but in many states there are so many hoops to jump through it might as well not be. North Dakota, for example, has only ONE clinic in the whole state that performs abortions, and ND is a very large state. A pregnant woman hundreds of miles from that clinic may not be able to afford to get there.

There are other states who've instituted all sorts of rules, waiting periods, etc, to make it as difficult as possible for what is already a traumatic and difficult decision for all involved. Makes me wonder how many abortions are being done by sympathetic medical practitioners without the government (or any other busybody) knowing.

Sheesh. Leslie, you're calling this woman "brave"? For aborting a child because it was "inconvenient"? Most of us have no problem with abortion if the mother is underage, if she cannot financially support the child, if she is the victim of rape or incest, or if the child has severe abnormalities. But a married, middle-class mother of three who has an abortion based on convenience? That is something I cannot support, and I'd guess that the majority of Americans (who support abortion rights) would not support this either. I mean, if abortion is such a great way of achieving work-family balance, why have these discussions at all? Our employers might as well offer us incentives to have abortions--just think of all the health care and child care costs we would save, and we wouldn't have to fight for equality and fairness anymore! Woo-hoo!

http://teenmoms.ourfamily.com/pregnant.htm

Which of these is NOT a baby? Where is it o.k.?

How many times does it have to be said?

It is useful to share your own personal experiences, solutions, values, as they apply to YOUR OWN life. Doing so can help others view things in a new way and perhaps take a new approach to difficulties in THEIR OWN lives.

Insisting that what is right for you is also always right for everyone else under all circumstances is not useful.

I can't imagine the circumstances under which I would choose to have an abortion. I hope it's a decision I never have to make. But I am 100% prochoice. It is not my right nor anyone else's to dictate how all women must behave under all circumstances.

It is not my right nor anyone else's to dictate how all women must behave under all circumstances.

It is unequivocally not o.k. to murder someone.

"I did not understand that the menstrual cycle starts the day you get your period until AFTER I had my first child (I thought you started counting 7 days after your period)."

Yeah, that messed up our attempts to start a family for the first couple of months; after all, when you're NOT trying to get pregnant and using BC, knowing exactly WHEN you are most fertile isn't all that important. Glad we figured that one out...

Every woman should have as required reading, Taking Charge of Your Own Fertility by Toni Weschler. No morality, just pure facts and information on your own bodies cycles. I learned things I should have learned as a teen. It will be required reading by my DD.

Abortion is not a tool to advance your career or to balance your life. If your life is so unbalanced that you could not accept a mistaken pregnancy when in a loving and committed relationship, then other aspects of your life and balance need to be examined.

I am done reading this disgusting blog.

7:58 said "To become pregnant would be to lose my life." Father of 4 replied "If sex is going to kill you, I suggest you avoid it."

Is Fo4 suggesting that 7:58 not perform her so-called wifely duty to her husband?

It's funny, most of the people I have encountered who make excuses for terrorists, and call soldiers baby-killers, are pro-slaughtering of an innocent whose genetic code is in place, whose heart beats at 18 days. So far as I know, a baby would not carry out a suicide bombing. So far as I know, it would not try to take advantage of your freedoms to bring about your demise.

Our soldiers volunteer to protect you, putting their lives on the line, choosing to face death so you don't have to. When they die, a tally is kept. The dead are mourned by families, if not the nation who says they died in vain.

The babies do not have a choice. 4,000 a day. That makes Iraq look like a playground. 25,000 a week. Darfur looks like a great place to live. 109,000 a month and you're giving Hitler a run for his money. Mao would appear a saint. Murder is legal in the U.S. and the facts are irrefutable. Oh sure, you can clamp down with gun control all you want, and open the borders to criminals, but in all reality- you do far worse than anyone else, and cold-blooded at that. So why not drop all murder charges? After all, if you have a "right" to take a life doesn't the scumbag sitting on death row, or spending life in prison, who committed some gruesome mutilation?

http://www.justthefacts.org/clar.asp

http://www.abortionismurder.org/

If you are keeping abortion as an option in case of an "accident" or an "inconvenience" you are contemplating murder. No quibbling. There are no accidents. Plenty of people wait years and can not afford adoptions. Just because you do not love your baby does not mean you should murder it. Who are you to place such little value on an innocent human life? Doubly so for you who would criticize those who would arm themselves to protect themselves and others.

It is tricky to explain my views. Can you be pro-choice but anti-abortion?

I have two friends who had abortions when they were younger. One of them is fine, the other never got over it and is haunted to this day.

My mother recently told me that she thought she was pregnant when my sisters and I were in college (!) and that, though they were only 10 years from retirement and it had been 18 years since my youngest sister was born, she and my father had decided they would welcome another child with open arms even though it would totally throw off their life plan. (My parents are both pro-choice, if it matters.)

I have to comment on the people who suggest that life begins at conception, and use ultrasound as support for their position.

Have you ever seen an ultrasound of a young embryo? I have, and there's nothing resembling a human there. The "baby" doesn't have any features that even vaguely resemble human features until at least six or seven weeks into the pregnancy.

I'm not arguing with your belief that life begins at conception. That's an opinion, and you're entitled to it. But don't pretend that the embryo starts out as some kind of miniature human that's being "butchered," no matter how early the abortion is performed.

Why is no one here discussing the morning-after pill? It prevents pregnancy by preventing an egg from implanting in the first place. While the most extreme anti-abortion types object (but they also object to any form of contraception), most women have no problem with this. It's like plenty of other eggs that don't implant anyhow.

"It is not my right nor anyone else's to dictate how all women must behave under all circumstances."

It's not your right; it's Jesus' right!

body's cycles...I need more coffee.

My Catholic grandparents had 5 kids in quick succession, then a sixth 10 years later. Despite being strongly religious, they were using birth control (after the first 5), which failed, thus my dad's much-younger sister. The effect was to derail my *grandfather's* career--he had just the Navy to go to college on the GI Bill, which would have helped the family immensely in the long run, but ended up having to get a job (not a great one, as he had no higher education) and they were always fairly poor. (My grandmother had to work full time the whole time the kids were growing up to help support the family.) If the option of abortion had been available in the mid-60's I don't know if they would have taken it, but my grandmother has taken several 12-hour bus rides to come to DC to march for choice over the years, so I think she wishes she had at least had the option for herself and her family. Also, my grandmother had 6 miscarriages and knows what it's like to lose a baby, and is still a strong supporter of the right to choose.

"That is something I cannot support, and I'd guess that the majority of Americans (who support abortion rights) would not support this either. "
Posted by: Sheesh. | June 13, 2007 08:29 AM

Well, maybe I'm in the minority, but pro-choice is pro-choice. I'm not about to pass judgement on a woman for having an abortion, no matter the circumstances. Its not my place. Are you proposing every abortion should go through some sort of litmus test to determine if it would be deemed "socially acceptable"?

And I agree with those who say all abortions are sad. But I think keeping it safe, legal, and at the mother's discretion is nessecary. For those too young to know what it was like before safe, legal abortions, I suggest reading chapter 2 of Cider House Rules. The movie doesn't get into the details as much, but abortion is key to the story.

Chris,
How is your wife doing?

There was a post about women having abortions and then regretting it and then there was a post about someone with a second, accident child, and having moments of wishing that child wasn't around - I guess THAT is a no-win situation. Regret comes in many forms and it is impossible to escape.

Any man who makes a law against abortion should know that there will be regret either way in many cases. A man cannot make nor should be allowed to make these decisions for women. As far as the woman involved in Roe V Wade, it is just as likely that she wouldn't regret her decision - it doesn't really matter that in her case, that she does.

It's not your right; it's Jesus' right!

Posted by: PTL | June 13, 2007 08:38 AM

Making religion the law is what Moslems do with Shariya, and you can see where that's getting the world. Separation of church and state is the enlightened way to go.

"It's not your right; it's Jesus' right!"

And that's all well and good, if you believe that Jesus was divine. I don't, and see no reason why a long-dead carpenter should have any say in how I deal with an unexpected pregnancy.

Surely you're not suggesting that all of humanity should be forced to submit to your interpretation of religion?

A blob of cells is NOT a person.

If I showed you photos of embryos during the first 20% of gestation you could not tell whether it was a monkey, a pig, a human, horse or dog.

It wan't until the mid-19th century that aborting an embry before it became "quick" (around the 4th month) became illegal.

It wasn't until the mid-19th century that any western religion start disapproving of abortions - even the Catholic church.

It wasn't until the male populations in Europe and then the US were devastated by wars (Napoleonic and US Civil) that abortion became illegal - and men decided that women needed to breed more children.

GO read history.

For most women (and not the sort who can sit on their computers during working hours), they have no choice. They can not afford to have a child. They can barely feed and house themselves.

For many women, motherhood is not an option. They do not want children and know they can not deal with them. (Not matter how many times that fantasy that all women want children is repeated.)

FOr young women trying to get through school so they can finish and get a decent job, if they drop out, they probably will never be able to finish and most certainly won't get into the top-ranked schools. That sends them back down to the bottom of the economic ladder.

Is this person being serious? Separation of church and state..... heard of it?

Excellent article! Hollywood completely avoids the issue today. Cider House Rules & Dirty Dancing & then nothing. That's disengenuous to the realities of life that women face in their reproductive years.

I've had an abortion. I was lucky. It was legal & safe in a sterile environment (as opposed to a back alley) -- as it should be. It's a gut-wrenching decision, and only the woman can decide what's in her best interests.

I hope society (& the numerous misguided fools dictating their beliefs on others) becomes more enlightened soon so that science can develop low cost 100% effective contraceptives for both men & women. Reproductive slavery has to end eventually.

I appreciate, Leslie, that the distinction you made was between "pro-choice" and "no choice." I am 100 percent pro-choice, because I know from my own experience how intensely personal and difficult such deliberations are. I'm one of those college-educated women who did everything right and still ended up pregnant. I wrestled for a long time with my decision - promising career and the total disinterest of the would-be father weighing heavily in those deliberatons - and eventually decided that for me, the decision to end the pregnancy was one that wasn't feasible.

I'm now the single parent of a beautiful 18-month old boy, and I'm at peace with the decision I made but make no mistake about it, the sacrifices I've made to do this have been significant, in both my professional and personal lives. I wouldn't change a thing, but I'm grateful for the opportunity to have a choice, to carefully consider the options available to me and move forward from there.

People don't talk about it because it is so personal, and so many people, who in theory ascribe to "judge not, lest ye be judged," are so quick to both judge and condemn decisions they can't possibly understand. But I don't know any women, regardless of social standing or income bracket, who haven't at some point had to think about this, either as a scare or a reality.

Wow, I'm pro-choice, but I agree with 7:49: abortion isn't -- and shouldn't be -- birth control, and that line made me nearly spit out my coffee. Yes, unwanted pregnancies happen and people handle them as they need to, but suggesting that abortion is birth control like the pill is birth control is not right.

Ok, I'm a childless Gay man, but I have been a father figure to my younger sisters and nieces as they have dealt with motherhood versus professional aspirations, and these are difficult decisions being called out here. The argument about the morality of abortion aside, the big gaps that we all should be focusing on are what's missing in our work culture that de-values mothers-to-be and new mothers, particularly, in the work settings. I have worked alongside expectant women and new mothers over the last 20+ years finding none of them less competent, valuable, or able because our their childbearing.

What I have found insufferable are fathers-to-be and new fathers who do not share equally in the burden of caring for their child, along with workplace policies that do not support new parenthood, e.g. the absence of lactation programs and/or parental leave with return to rank--and adequate follow-up from HR departments to insure that new parents are not being abused by superiors. These are the issues on which everyone here should be able to unite, instead bashing one another over beliefs about conception, contraception, and abortion.

Namaste.

I can see abortion rights is a topic that gets the discussion flowing. Since so many of you feel passionately about it, here's a real chance to speak to a national audience on this topic.

Henry Rollins hosts a talk show on IFC (Independent Film Channel) and is looking for someone to speak out on abortion or some other issues -- and he will fly them to LA and make them the host of an upcoming "Henry Rollins Show" marathon on IFC

Rollins is inviting anyone to tape a short video "rant" on one of 11 hot topics and the person who does the rant he personally chooses will host the marathon.

At ziddio.com/myrollinsrant record and upload a video "rant" on one of the topics (including abortion rights, has the Iraq war made us safer? Bush's response to Hurricane Katrina, is America a dumb country? global warming, etc.)

The winner will be chosen solely by Henry. He encourages anyone to enter, no matter their political persuasion - his only requirement: have "passion and attitude!"

Of course it is birth control! If you are using BC, and it fails, and you don't want to have a child, you can get an abortion. You're using it for birth control. I don't think most people advocate using it for --first line--birth control, but, except for people who choose to terminate because of their health or problems with the fetus, abortion is birth control.

Kill a baby to make life more convenient? What sort of choice is that?

You made me cry....wonderfully written.

a bigolwoman

Thanks writing mommy. I am pro-choice but deeply sad about abortion and sick at the thought that it would be considered anything but a last, last, last resort! Kids get in the way of a lot of things, not just careers. Life is about the journey and sometimes we need to accept that we can't control everything and sometimes the path may be chosen for us without our consent. The true measure of a person is how they respond to the change in the path.

Kill a baby to make life more convenient? What sort of choice is that?

Posted by: Rufus | June 13, 2007 08:51 AM

Maybe we should start filling out death certificates and holding funerals every time a woman gets her period, because her egg died.

"Is Fo4 suggesting that 7:58 not perform her so-called wifely duty to her husband?"

Exactly! If a couple is not willing to accept the natural concequences of sex, procreation, they shouldn't engage in the activity.

It's a practicle thing. Sex is not for everybody.

I made the decision after college that if I had an unplanned pregnancy that I would not abort - the logic was that one day I wanted kids and I would be capable of supporting one - so convenience (or not) would not dictate my having a child.

This was tested when I did have an unplanned pregnancy and the father was pushing hard to abort the baby. I did not want to do that, and had my child - do not regret the descision.

I am pro-choice and after having a child am even more so. Pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion.

The reality is, which is better for us all-having abortion legal or illegal? As in, would you rather women get back alley abortions and have millions of unwanted kids in the worl? Or would you want it to be legal?

My mom helped my sister's friend when they were in college-i found out yrs later.

If you read freakonomics, the author indicates that women made correct decisions-our crime rates did not go up as expected, due to all those unwanted children *not* being born after roe v wade.

"If a couple is not willing to accept the natural concequences of sex, procreation, they shouldn't engage in the activity."

Why?

Seriously, why?

Gee thanks, father of 4 for your understanding. We use birth control, and through no fault of my own, I am physically incapable of carrying a pregnancy to term, and yet, you suggest that if having sex would kill me, we shouldn't do that.

Okay, Mr Hypocrite, are YOU willing to forego sex? I'd wager not, since you have 4 kids. What a loser.

I just lost what little respect I had for Leslie -- her share of "scares" over the years??????? Geez, what is this, high school??? Isn't she "Ivy league" educated? I guess the tuition costs didn't include common sense. I'm in my late 30's, married with 2 kids, and I've never had a "scare."

Birth control is very effective these days -- USE IT!!!!!!

Posted by: | June 13, 2007 07:22 AM

This is silly. If you are a woman, then you may have had your menses late. I know that I have--and despite knowing that we had used birth control, properly, I was still terrified at the idea of being pregnant again. One time it was a condom break. I got the morning-after pill.

Age can make your cycle irregular, so can stress, so can some meds. Being reminded that you are not as regular as clockwork is simply the way things go. Well, at least if you don't use oral contraceptives. They are not for everybody.

What the hell is an accidental pregnancy? If yo have sex then you should understand there is a chance you get pregnant. Unless one of the 2 is not sterile by some means, then you can get pregnant.

The term "accidental pregnancy" is such a cop out and insulting phrase.

Fof4: If a couple is not willing to accept the natural concequences of sex, procreation, they shouldn't engage in the activity.

Do you also oppose epidurals for women during childbirth?

I'm all for people using birth control and I suppose, effectively, that abortion is birth control. But the way it's being used just seems wrong. Fine, not the first line of defense, but when there are millions of abortions because "it's not a convenient time" or "oops," something is seriously wrong. The attitude of the described mother seems way too casual.

I completely agree with RT - pro choice is pro choice. Either I support a woman's right to control her own fertility or I don't, and I definitely come down in pro choice camp.

I don't think I have any right to judge another woman for choosing to have an abortion. I also don't really care when "life" begins - the important thing to me is that pregnant women are forced incubators for another organism, and while some pregnant women welcome that experience, others do not. I have no more right to force those who do no to go through with that experience anyway than I have the right to force a compatible donor to submit to a marrow donation or a kidney donation. It's her body, and she has every right not to use it for that purpose.

I also think that the old "but she chose to have sex" chestnut has worn out its welcome. Until we figure out how to plant that fetus in a man and let him carry it to term, I don't want to hear about how choosing to have sex equals choosing to bear a child. That's just BS, plain and simple.

OK, I didn't read every single word that has been posted so far, so maybe I missed the place where someone else wrote "Here is my abortion story."

I had one. It was my second pregnancy (number one miscarried). I wanted a child. I was married. I had chorionic-villi sampling which indicated a not-unexpected genetic problem. The pregnancy was terminated at 13 weeks. I donated blood for a research study designed to develop a non-invasive method for identifying that particular genetic problem in the developing fetus. 12 months later, I was back at the same lab having chorionic-villi sampling for pregnancy number three. The genetics were good. Our daughter is almost 15 years old. She is wonderful. I would absolutely make the same decision again.

My only regret about the whole thing is that I cannot sign my real name to this. The pro-life movement has so demonized those of us who have made this choice (for whatever reason) that to reveal my name would be to open my family to the very real possibility of emotional and possibly physical danger. Yes, I would really love it if the media would portray this issue more thoroughly. I don't expect to see that in my lifetime.

"In two summer blockbusters out now, The Waitress and Knocked Up, women face surprise pregnancies -- and never discuss ending them as an option. "

I've seen knocked up. Abortion is discussed in the movie with the character's mother. She didn't want one, which is her choice. Saying that it wasn't discussed just because she didn't want an abortion is inaccurate. The girl in knocked up is also a professional who made a stupid mistake in this day and age of aids and other diseases. If you want to rail on something about Hollywood, how about the fact that she got drunk and had a one night stand. Not the fact that she exercised her right to have a baby.

It's also a very funny movie. However, the part where her mother was trying to convince her to have an abortion made me sick.

I say the old men can keep their laws off my body, but I feel the same way for the pro-choice women as well. We all have one body and one choice, besides the baby's father, who else should have the right to push a decision on you--no one.

To the anonymous poster at 8:30am who posted the link to http://teenmoms.ourfamily.com/pregnant.htm, and asked "Which of these is NOT a baby?"

The answer is a. and b., but not c., d. or e. There, problem solved, and the entire abortion debate is now officially concluded.

(Now shut your pie-hole and go find some other arena in which you can attempt to exert your moral values on others.)

Until we figure out how to plant that fetus in a man and let him carry it to term, I don't want to hear about how choosing to have sex equals choosing to bear a child.

Yeah, let Fof4 pop 4 big kids out of one HIS narrow orifices, then see how HE feels about having a choice.

Posting anonymously because I KNOW I'll be attacked, I have had one. I wasn't young or stupid, but birth control is never 100% and I absolutely did not have the financial resources to support a child. I'm not haunted by it, though I wish it was a choice I hadn't had to make. While the idea of having an abortion because it will slow down your career is distateful to me, I would never tell another woman she had to have a child because birth control failed.

I have been married for 7 years, early 30s, no children. My husband and I agree we do not want children. Ever. The responsible thing for us to do is ensure our birth control method works. I asked about getting my tubes tied when I was 30 (and married for 4 years) and she would not even hear of it. She seems pretty liberal, pro-choice, etc., so her brisk brushoff refusing to even consider a tubal as an option until I was 35 shocked me. She said I was too young and I will change my mind about motherhood. My question is, where is MY choice? Sure, I can get an abortion but I can't proactively prevent pregnancy by getting a tubal? Pro-choice means the woman has a choice about pregnancy (I thought, at least) but it sure doesn't seem like it.

"Most working women (at least the sexually active ones) need birth control, including abortion, to plan their careers -- sometimes, you need to say "no" to motherhood in order to build your reputation, get more training or an advanced degree, accept a promotion, or simply to work very hard for a certain period of time."

Abortion is not birth control. And to say no to motherhood for the above reasons is astonishingly selfish. I am pro-choice. I believe that women should---since they are the ones who get pregnant--be responsible for birth control. Should men too? Sure--but in the real world where life might not be fair and we are the ones who will have to carry the child for nine months I would rather depend on myself.

Honest, maybe we don't talk about it publicly because some things should be private. Remember when sex was something that happened between two people, behind closed doors and wasn't some slogan you wore on a tee-shirt?

Abortion should never be "not a big deal." It should never be an easy choice. For anyone who has been pregnant, you might not agree that it is a person but you have to admit it's something--you didn't stare at the blob on the ultrasound at 8 weeks and get all excited or upset or weepy over "not a big deal."

Planned parenthood sells tee-shirts that say I had an abortion, as if it were something to be proud of? How is it something to be proud of? The need to terminating a pregnancy is most times the failure to use common sense and good judgment prior to conception...not something to be proud of.

Just because you can do something or have the right to doesn't mean you should or that you should be proud of it when you do--something the so called feminist/women's movement should remember.

There are things in life that are private. That the world need not comment on. Why is it not good enough for the law to allow you to do something--have an abortion, have premarital or adulterous or gay sex? Why does everyone want approval for their decisions and actions? Why must we be forced to listen to people who insist I advocate their choice as equal?

I tell my kids that the law should allow for abortions but I don't want them to have one or cause someone to have one. I tell them that everyone is equal under the law but I don't advocate a homosexual lifestyle as an equal choice...

The law allows you to live your life free from institutionalized discrimination. It doesn't, nor should it. compel me to like you, your lifestyle or your choices.

Our private parts and private lives are just that--private. A little more discretion and a little more thought about consequences and we wouldn't be forced to defend procedures that can legitimately be described as sticking a fork into the head of a fetus and sucking the brain out.

I am surprised that there seem to be so many pro-lifers here. Where are the pro-choice people? This is THE problem - we are in danger of abortion becoming completely illegal because the pro-choice groups are so quiet. Perhaps pro-choice groups and people are so used to abortion being legal that they think it can't possibly change. I think that many pro-choicers just don't realize that they need to stand up for a woman's right to choose every time they enter the ballot box. When I am downtown walking around, I see the pro-lifers out almost every time - where are the pro-choice groups?

Remember, being pro-choice doesn't mean that YOU have to choose to have an abortion - what it truly means is that you recognize that women have the right to decide what is best for them as an individual, no matter where they are in their lives - no questions asked.

I do feel that there should be severe limitations on late-term abortions - any one who can't decide after six months, you don't have the choice anymore. The only way that it should be legal is in the case of danger to the woman's life or where there are serious problems with the baby and it will not survive.

We can't know what is truly happening in another person's life - we cannot presume to know what is best for anyone but ourselves. There are many areas of life where this applies - not only in the abortion debate. We are far too involved in everyone else's lives and telling them what is right and wrong for them, when all the while we cannot possibly know. Life is not black and white and one size fits all - even pro-lifers need to admit this.

I think more work needs to be done to make abortion less common, but it should never be anything less than a women's choice, in the end. We risk losing too many other freedoms of choice if this is taken away.

7:58 said "To become pregnant would be to lose my life." Father of 4 replied "If sex is going to kill you, I suggest you avoid it."

Or is Father of 4 saying that every sexual encounter results in pregnancy, so therefore he's only had sex four times in his life?

I am glad Leslie's friend's mother had a brave face for her abortion confession, but she will never know if this woman suffered in private. Too many woman publicly express that it is "no big deal" to have an abortion then spend their lives struggling with the decision and unfortunately regretting it. The woman that brought about Roe v. Wade regretted her decision 25 years later and is now pro-life.

You know this only because she has since changed her mind. When she wanted that abortion, had it and took it to court she got some money. You know what she did with it? Saw a dentist for the first time in many years. The woman couldn't afford to take care of herself at the time, now she can. Now she has the luxury of second-guessing.

We all do, if we live long enough.

You don't know that the woman Leslie was speaking with had second thoughts or anguish or not. You are presuming.

Personally, I think it was brave of her (the older woman) to discuss it. You may feel she was cowardly for having had an abortion, but she is far braver than you for choosing to air the subject.

To me, outside of cases of pregnancy from rape or incest, abortion is merely another instance of people's refusal to accept responsibility for choices that they make. You accept the risk of pregnancy everytime you decide to have sex. Abortion is a way of avoiding accepting the consequences of that decision.

is most times the failure to use common sense and good judgment prior to conception

But not always.

Being a male, I am hesitant to post to a column like this, but having spent my career as an embryologist, I feel compelled to right a couple of very serious wrongs that have been posted. When does life begin? I don't claim to have the definitive answer, but medical science has declared that life ENDS when brain electrical activity stops. It is, therefore, quite reasonable to conclude that life BEGINS when electrical activity in the brain begins. This generally occurs around or during the 7th month of pregnancy. Since pain is a perception, a brain without electrical activity cannot feel pain, it cannot sense light, sound or anything else. Though it clearly has a heartbeat and is undergoing growth and forming tissues and organs, a 6-month old fetus is not "alive" in the sense that the anti-choice folks try to tell us.

I am not arguing that abortion is a good thing or a bad thing. I just am tired of the anti-choice lobby not telling (or maybe not understanding) this rather critical truth.

I agree with RT. As a matter of public health, I think abortion should be legal, safe, and available to those who choose it.

One of the tragedies here is that the full range of options is rarely discussed, either publicly or privately. For example, how many women would choose to put their children up for adoption if adoption were more socially acceptable?

In an ideal world, there would be no uplanned or unwanted pregnancies. Sadly, we do not live in an ideal world. As an alternative, there is at least a two-pronged approach: (1) educate and support women to make appropriate decisions regarding their sexual health and birth control, and (2) educate and support women to make appropriate decisions should they find themselves faced with an unwanted pregnancy.

Today, about 60% of the women who have abortions are already mothers. Most have abortions because they are thinking of their children who have already been born. Also, many of the women who have abortions are poor or have other serious financial challenges -- they worry about feeding, housing & providing medical care for the children who are already born.

What I find fascinating is that the pro-life movement has latched onto sonograms as a method of discouraging women from having abortions rather than focusing on the real problems that lead women to have abortions.

How about fighting for guaranteed medical coverage for all pregnant women and all children so women don't have to worry about paying for prenatal care and delivery and health care? How about focusing on housing for people in poverty? What about paid childcare leave for new parents as in Europe?

Also, what about focusing on increasing use of contraception and yes, sterilization for people who have completed their families? How about medical coverage for contraception? Effective contraception (the pill or IUD or sterlization) can be quite expensive.

While there undoubtedly are some women who have abortions for "balance" in their lives, it trivializes abortion to focus on abortions for a group that uses abortion at much lower rates than other women due to use of effective contraception (including abstinence) and the ability to support an additional child in the event of an unexpected pregnancy.

Planned parenthood sells tee-shirts that say I had an abortion, as if it were something to be proud of?

That's just gross. Making money off of a private, personal, often times painful decision.

Injudaism, technically, birth control is forbidden-thats why the very observant have so many kids. However, it is a husband's duty to please his wife. So in some cases it is allowed.

And abortion is not forbidden-if it would be for the health of the mother (physical or mental).
And pro-life does *not* equal against abortion. If you are anti-keeping abortion legal, say so, but everyone is pro life.
1984 much?

A little more discretion and a little more thought about consequences and we wouldn't be forced to defend procedures that can legitimately be described as sticking a fork into the head of a fetus and sucking the brain out.

That's not how the procedure works in the first trimester, Chris. Shouldn't you be protesting the tossing out of fertilized eggs that are not going to be implanted?

Where are all of the people who are pro-life when it comes time to taking care of older, unwanted children? Are all the no-choice/pro-lifers foster parents? Adopting special needs children, not just the cute little newborns?

"Do you also oppose epidurals for women during childbirth?"

No way! Why any woman would forgo this opportunity for the sake of "my grandmother did it so can I" is beyond me. I say go for it before 3 centimeters and have as pleasant time during childbirth as possible.

When does life begin? With ejaculation, according to the most militant anti-choicers.

Life does begin at conception. Just because the embryo doesn't look like a newborn doesn't mean it isn't a child in development. We don't kill children after their birth and justify it because they don't look like adults.

The only reason I will not advocate for making abortion illegal again is because I wouldn't want us to go back to the days of back-alley abortions. That's not the same as saying abortion is OK; just because I CAN doesn't mean I SHOULD.

To say that one would have an abortion for the sake of convenience, or to "build your reputation, get more training or an advanced degree, accept a promotion, or simply to work very hard for a certain period of time," as Leslie advocates, is selfish, immature and narcisstic. I am thoroughly repulsed by such a shallow, self-absorbed, and thoroughly disgusting way of thinking.

If a girl is 15 and clueless, or a 19-year-old woman has been raped, then the choice to kill the child is marginally less awful.

And, with the exception of the case of rape, using safe and reliable pregnancy prevention methods (sucn as the pill, a condom, a diaphragm, depo-provera, the female condom -- and I think the sponge is once more available) will dramatically reduce the chances of ever needing to face this decision in the first place. Wouldn't it be better for girls to have access to birth control without parental gatekeeping? Wouldn't it be better for grown women to take responsibility for avoiding unwanted pregnancy? Wouldn't it be better for men in a committed relationship to also assume responsibility for pregnancy prevention? Are there no more adoption agencies in this country?

Aren't those options preferable to advocating for prenatal infantacide, and referring to it as a birth-control method????

When I took a college course in philosophy the subject of pro-choice came up. We had several very enthusiastic, if that's the right word, discussions on this. The prof. took a vote and every female in the class was pro-choice. Every male was anti-abortion. It made me realize men seem to think their sperm is something so precious it needs to grow and flourish, although they don't think about that when they're 'spanking the monkey' alone at night. Men are not the ones who have to feed, clothe and nurture these accidents. Don't get me started on what the Pope says about abortion -- the Pope doesn't raise them and pay for them, either.

For what it's worth, the majority of people walking around on this earth now are accidents. If we're taking a vote today, I am still decidedly pro-choice. The operative word here is CHOICE. Suppose, for instance, there was an election with only one candidate. You had to vote for that candidate and live by what they stood for. Same as an unwanted pregnancy -- what if you really had no way out. That unwanted child will grow up knowing he/she was not wanted and there's nothing sadder than not being wanted by your parents. Believe me, I've been there.

"I am surprised that there seem to be so many pro-lifers here. Where are the pro-choice people?"

As someone else mentioned, pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion. And choice indicates that there are two sides to choose from. I'm pro-choice in as much as I think it should be legal. But I'm disturbed by how often people see it as the only solution.

"Or is Father of 4 saying that every sexual encounter results in pregnancy, so therefore he's only had sex four times in his life?"

He's so cranky, it's a good possibilty that he has only had sex four times in his life.

chris 1458

Our private lives are all equally valid as you stated - and that includes homosexual ones. Again, you don't have to do it or be a part of it, but it is a valid lifestyle choice - not today's topic so I hope it doesn't make a change in direction.

Funny thing about the pro-lifers is that they are the ones that promote the abstinance campains, and are not supportive of programs that support women and children that are disadvantaged... we need to have a culture of life if we are going to take away a woman's right to chose if she is going to have a child or not.

outside of cases of pregnancy from rape or incest, abortion is merely another instance of people's refusal to accept responsibility for choices that they make.

Sam Brownback is campaigning for President partly on a platform of no abortion even in cases of rape and incest.

Wouldn't it be better for men in a committed relationship to also assume responsibility for pregnancy prevention?

Why wait until they are in a committed relationship to prevent a pregnancy--one that HE may or may not want either?

Looks to me like there are a lot of pro-choicers on this blog. For what it's worth, I'm 100% pro-choice, even for late term abortions. I figure I have no business second-guessing someone else's decision on when it's appropriate to end their pregnancy. And, unlike some of the people on here, having my daughter has only made me more pro-choice.

If abortion is murder, why should it be OK in cases of rape or incest? The circumstances of an individual's origin determine whether or not it is OK to kill it? This is an argument Hitler used. To me, it is the only morally indefensible argument on either side of the debate. You can believe abortion should be OK, if you don't believe it is murder. Otherwise, you can believe it is not OK, but it is morally indefensible to argue that the circumstances that led to the fetus' origin is relevant to the decision.

"To say that one would have an abortion for the sake of convenience, or to "build your reputation, get more training or an advanced degree, accept a promotion, or simply to work very hard for a certain period of time," as Leslie advocates, is selfish, immature and narcisstic. I am thoroughly repulsed by such a shallow, self-absorbed, and thoroughly disgusting way of thinking.

If a girl is 15 and clueless, or a 19-year-old woman has been raped, then the choice to kill the child is marginally less awful."

Educmom:

What about for financial reasons? What if a couple has an unplanned preganancy and financially they cannot raise a child? Is it a responsible decision to terminate a pregnancy knowing well that the child will not be provided for or should the parents have the child anyways?

I am pro-choice for other people, but I would never, ever have an abortion unless my life was in danger and before I had my daughter I wouldn't even do that. It seems to me that my stance is often looked at as being anti-abortion by some of the militant pro-choicers. This isn't a yes or no question, there are all kinds of shades of grey.

I don't think sonograms should be mandatory, but perhaps some women want to see what they are doing before they actually have an abortion. As for Leslie and Hollywood, you can always go back and watch "fast times at ridge Mont high."

Life does begin at conception.

In that case, birth control is solely the province of the male. He's responsible for that life beginning, so he should be 100% responsible for it not beginning.

I got my fiance pregnant in college. We both were still nearly a year from graduating and getting married, barely had enough money to graduate on, had no job prospect, and no way to continue school and make enough money to support a child.

After discussing our options (marry immediately/get job/drop out of school/delay graduation), we decided jointly that abortion was our best choice. She was adamant that keeping hte baby but giving it up for adoption was not an option. Had she wanted to continue the pregnancy I would have gone along with that, but our lives would have been very, very different from what they are now. It was a mutual decision that both of us still feel was the best one at that time.

"And, unlike some of the people on here, having my daughter has only made me more pro-choice."

NewSAHM:
That is in a really interesting statment. Just curious, how so?

"And, unlike some of the people on here, having my daughter has only made me more pro-choice."

NewSAHM:
That is in a really interesting statment. Just curious, how so?

watch national geographic's In the Womb, get the book. It is a separate human life, all the building blocks are there, all is needed is time.

I think the point of those "I had an abortion" t-shirts are to show that normal, everyday women do have abortions. As a few people have mentioned, abortion is treated like some dirty little secret,and the shirts are an attempt to bring the issue out into the open. It's similar to the "this is what a feminist looks like" t-shirts.

I have a morality question for those who profess to be pro-life. Just under two weeks ago, I allowed my OB to remove the otherwise perfectly healthy fetus that was growing in my fallopian tube. Was that an abortion, since technically, she "killed" the fetus? In your viewpoint, should I have waited until the tube burst naturally, "killing" the fetus and, possibly, me?

From jefferson:
What about for financial reasons? What if a couple has an unplanned preganancy and financially they cannot raise a child? Is it a responsible decision to terminate a pregnancy knowing well that the child will not be provided for or should the parents have the child anyways?

The couple could put the child up for adoption. If the couple has no insurance, I'm sure they could probably find a prospective set of parents who would pay for the prenatal care and childbirth -- one of those couples who spend $50,000 going to Russia or China and adopting a child.

from anon at 9:24:
Life does begin at conception.

In that case, birth control is solely the province of the male. He's responsible for that life beginning, so he should be 100% responsible for it not beginning.

You make a valid point. However, since the woman has to bear the child or not, she should be perpared to prevent the pregnancy in the event that the man is not.

What age do you think is too young for your unmarried underage daughter to carry a pregnancy to term? Some guys get girls as young as 11 or 12 pregnant. Would you let her attend middle school or high school while pregnant?

It is a separate human life, all the building blocks are there, all is needed is time.

Yes, including the destruction of selected cells so that there are fingers, not paddles. What's your point? As was pointed out earlier, until there is a brain, there isn't a person.

For this, and other reasons, I am very much in favor of abortion continuing to be a legally available procedure.

I would prefer that contraception be 100% effective, 100% of the time, and that people used it perfectly 100% of the time, but I know better. If we were capable of THAT, we wouldn't ever have car accidents.

I'm all for vasectomies, too. Men who state I do not want to have children, ever, are men who best take control of that issue for themselves.

Life does begin at conception.

In that case, birth control is solely the province of the male. He's responsible for that life beginning, so he should be 100% responsible for it not beginning.

You make a valid point. However, since the woman has to bear the child or not, she should be perpared to prevent the pregnancy in the event that the man is not.

No--she shouldn't ever be in that position. He is 100% responsible for her pregnancy. So it is up to him to protect his semen from being deposited somewhere his child could be unwelcome.

But that would be so much harder than to point fingers at the female, now wouldn't it?

This is yet another reason I have such problems with the "boys will be boys" outlook. It's demeaning.

In your viewpoint, should I have waited until the tube burst naturally, "killing" the fetus and, possibly, me?

Posted by: NewSAHM | June 13, 2007 09:31 AM

Even the Catholic church recognizes situations such as your as a valid reason. If it is truly a choice, as in your case, of the life of the mother vs. the life of a child.

To the people saying how birth control is effective and available and has been for a long time?

My sibs and I are all products of birth control of one form or another. Granted, this is late '60's/early 70's birth control which may not be as sophisticated as birth control methods today, but we were not strictly planned.

Me? I'm an IUD baby. 2% failure rate.

My sister's oldest? Birth control pill baby. So is my neighbor's soon-to-be arriving baby. And several of my friends tell the same story.

Birth control isn't infallible - even the surgical kind. Both Fallopian tubes and the vas deferens can spontaneously reconnect after poorly performed tubal ligations / vasectomies. Rare, but it can happen.

The thing about life is that it wants to reproduce itself...and it will always find a way.

I just did a quick Google to see what abortion rates are in various countries. I found that the United States has significantly higher abortion rates than Western Europe, the countries that are most like us.

Does anyone think that, perhaps, the greater openness about sexuality, in general, has something to do with that? How about the availability of tax-supported healthcare? We could do a lot to reduce the rate of abortion that would be more effective than accusing people who support the availability of legal abortion of being heartless and immoral.

For anyone interested in facts about abortion, The Guttmacher Institute at www.guttmacher.org is a good source. A quick glance at their web site will tell you that it's not easy to generalize about who has abortions or in what circumstances they have them.

Lisa, sorry for the double post - I was typing my last one when your question showed up.

It's difficult to articulate why having DD has made me pro-choice, but I'll give it a shot. For me, pregnancy and parenthood have been intensly emotional experiences. There are times when I feel as if my whole being has been turned inside out, in both good and bad ways. I wanted my daighter very much, and she is one of the greatest joys in my life. But I can imagine how it would feel not to want the being growing inside of you, and not to welcome the gut-wrenching changes that come along with parethood. I'd never want someone to be forced into the experience.

Whoever said uptopic that there aren't any "accidents", since everyone knows that sex can cause a pregnancy, needs to get out more. Birth control measures can and do fail, some medications can interfere with the pill's effectiveness, even the pill (with different strength levels) may not be effective for everyone.

Or are all these failures simply, in your opinion, God's will that this woman become a mother, and therefore she's got no further say in the matter? As someone said earlier, this country isn't run by the Taliban, at least not yet.

For those who think abortion should only be available for rape and incest cases -- I worked for a large police department and in my years there maybe 2 rapes resulted in pregnancy. There are far, far more unplanned pregnancies between husband and wife or boyfriend/girlfriend than there ever were from rape and incest.

sorry, 9:32 was me.

New SAHM:
Having surgery to remove an ectopic pregnancy is not the same thing as having an abortion (big clue: you can have the surgery in a Catholic hospital -- I did). Until medical science devises a way to reimplant the fetus in the uterus, there is no way the child can ever be born, and not treating the condition will kill the mother as well as the baby.

I had an ectopic pregnancy before I had my sons. It was discovered when I began hemmoraging at a party and passed out; I was, in fact, bleeding to death internally. I ended up with one fallopian tube, which makes it all the more amusing that I got pregnant with #1 on the first try and I got pregnant with #2 while I was taking birth control pills.

Maybe your view has something to do with not wanting your daughter to suffer an unwanted pregnancy and be forced to carry it to term someday, especially while very young.

This discussion is exactly why women feel overwhelmed by children and work and struggle to find balance. In the United States, abortion is legal, most women have access to birth control, and women CHOOSE to have children. It is a personal decision. And as a personal, private, decision, it is not the responsibility of the employer or the state to provide months and months of paid materinity leave, required part-time options, etc (i.e. France).

So what if the U.S. had a different view and put forth pro-natalist policies (again, France). What if abortion wasn't legal? The women wouldn't have the ultimate, private choice to end the baby's life. If we assume that the U.S. won't conve