Primeira!

dos!

dos!

"I am valuable, but how do I persuade potential employers of my potential contributions?"

Good question. It seems that you aren't valuable to the places where you have been applying. You now have to find the right employer. A place where you are valuable.

I understand how expensive the cost of living is in the Ramsey, Bergen County area. Can you take a job to get your foot in the door, then mentally tell yourself to be prepared to move on to the next opportunity?

It is difficult to get the perfect job the first time, but there could be a connection through co-worker or customer leading to something better.

Thank you, Karen, for having the courage to write this.

No, you shouldn't be "used up" at this age--and can still contribute.

I don't know what the answer is--but until people are willing to bring the situation into public consciousness, nothing will change.

I wish you all the best. I could easily be you in 12 years.

Are you able to show these potential employers that you're current on computer skills and admin? We have hired a person who was staying at home for years and her computer skills and admin skills (word processing, efficient work) are incredibly rusty, we have to overcome that hurdle before she can be of real use to us. If she had not had a connection to our company we probably would have passed her by because of this fact.

Maybe your resume needs a revamp? Maybe you need to go thru a job placement agency? Maybe you need to start out at an "re-entry" level position and work yourself back to a higher income bracket?

I feel for you because I know you are fighting against a ton of preconceived notions of how people in their 50's should be. Are they old or young? No one seems to agree. There are 2 people in my family that are both 55. One has yet to retire, has no plans to and is very healthy and has a youthful spirit. The other was counting the days to retirement, insists she's an old lady and she shouldn't work and needs tons of help because "she's an old lady". You are probably up against people your own age who think you are too old to start working again now. I think once you hit your 50's you reach a decision point--do you see yourself as useful with many years left to live or are you just going to sit down and wait for those years to pass you by. When you believe you're old, you will act that way and everyone will believe it. You sound like someone with a great work ethic and tremendous initiative. Someone will definitely see that soon.

For one, I don't consider an paralegal certificate to be an 'advanced degree', and neither will anyone who interviews you (I seriously hope you're not touting it as such). Secondly, for someone with a BA, $30K sounds about right, especially for someone out of the workforce for so long.

I think part of the problem is you're asking for more than you're worth. I don't mean that personally -- I mean that "nowadays," a Masters is the new BA. If you're having a hard time finding work you enjoy or not getting the salary offers you feel you should be getting, you might want to reassess what you're bringing to the table versus what the other applicants have.

I, in part, understand what Karen is going through. Being that I am over 50 companies are somewhat willing to hire me as contract staff but would never think of me as a permanent hire. It matters not that I have been at this job for 5 years, am told that I am a valuable part of the team and have received 2 raises in the last 12 months.

I did have a break in employment after 23 years with a company and no company was interested in me coming from the "unemployed" ranks. I went part-time at a disgusting job just to have work to do. This apparently was the key to making me more attractive to potential employers as I was doing some kind of work. Now life is good but I am aware it could vanish overnight and have made appropriate financial decisions to soften the impact when the axe falls.

Ksren, the only answer to your problem is persistence. I was in a similar situation and it took me two years to find a job in the field I am trained for. Ignore the people who say you may not have good computer skills. They are people who have jobs and think that a person who has trouble finding one has large and obvious faults.

Karen, Those of us who write professionally have likely had different experiences from one another, so I hope that some of the other writers who post to this group will also share their experiences, in order to provide you a wider view of the life.

Most writers I know have a specialty (or maybe a couple of areas) to which they dedicate their work. You don't mention whether your employment search has been in a specific field of expertise, or whether you're just generally looking for a writing position. In the latter case, you may be competing against candidates who have experience, probably recent experience, writing in that field -- which puts you at a disadvantage not directly connected to your age. Clearly one of your fields of knowledge is arthritis, so I wonder whether you might have better success limiting your job search to at least the health sciences (if not specifically to the field of arthritis).

Everyone can sympathize with your desire to find a position with good pay and benefits that rewards your abilities to the fullest. But as the poster at 7:34 AM noted, you might not find your perfect job on the first try: the pay might be too low, the benefits too few, the subject matter not interesting to you, the work conditions less than desirable. But if your husband is still able to provide for you both monetarily and in terms of benefits like health insurance, it might be worthwhile in the long run for you to accept a less-desirable first job if it has the potential to "get your foot in the door" professionally, including helping you network with more writers and employers. I realize your probably find this disappointing advice, but it may be the realistic way for you to proceed right now.

Do your higher education accomplishments predate parenthood? If so, you might consider returning to a local college or university either to take a few courses to brush up your skills and update your knowledge, or to discover a new field of interest (I parlayed the latter approach successfully, although YMMV). Although this requires an initial investment of time and money, the return is potentially substantial.

One of the great advantages of a writing career is that, once established, it need not end at the traditional retirement age, but instead flourish for as long as you're able! So, best of luck to you in your pursuit of fulfilling work.

It could be her location -- Ramsey NJ may not be happening econimically. My guess is that the DC employment scene would be different. I think location counts for a lot more then people realize.

Karen, you obviously are not valuable for the type of jobs you apply to. Maybe 20 years ago $60000 was big money to manage, but now even people who earn less than $30000 a year (at whom you sneer) are managing much more serious amounts (think CVS floor managers),
"I am over and done with to many" -- it's "too many", and I don't care if it's a typo. For a paralegal/writing/office person you should be capable of catching the typos.

I would recommend going into another family business with low overhead, like you supposedly did with your husband. No benefits, but good savings plan (Keogh). Should have bought low-cost medical insurance for small business long ago, it's hard to get in your advanced age.

I'm afraid your attitude shows. Nobody would put you in charge of recent college graduates and pay you more then they are getting.

Ramsey is a bedroom suburb of NYC, with access both by rail, and the George Washington Bridge. Hard to think of a larger, more diverse job market in the US.

"The time committed to community service, chairing the high school graduation gala"

You must be joking!!!!!

Hard to think of a larger, more diverse job market in the US.

Posted by: Geography | July 17, 2007 08:09 AM

Maybe it's so big that it's overwhelming?

Taking care of children with health issues is incredibly taxing and time consuming and certainly has to make balancing much more difficult. Both of my kids arrived early and the first year for each is such a blur of waiting rooms, insurance issues, waiting on hold for doctors, appointments and worry. Truly working full time seemed impossible (how many times can you take off for doctors appointments?) and so I worked part-time at a job that were not ideal but worked for my situation. Now I have part-time work I like, two healthy kids and most, but not all of the insurance issues resolved.

My advice go temp you have to start somewhere. Get in the door anywhere if you like the place and it is a good fit you will have much more of a chance of getting the positions you consider fulfilling. Good luck.

Dear hiring manager,

Please do not correct people's writing. It is, in fact, "I am over and done with to many" - as in "to many people, I am over and done with."

It's not, "like you supposedly did," it's "as you supposedly did." Helps explain your low expectations in worklife.

You are probably right, but if the writing style of her cover letter and resume is too convoluted, she is not getting the interview. You, on the other hand...

I'm da boss!

"Dear hiring manager,

Please do not correct people's writing. It is, in fact, "I am over and done with to many" - as in "to many people, I am over and done with."
"

No, correct people's writing ONLY when it's wrong. When it's correct, leave it alone. :)

You should have gone to law school...

You have a twenty year employment gap! Some people may think 52 is "too old" but really, the last time you worked in an office environment (besides for your husband) was 1987--before Microsoft and the Internet. You said you have jobs/job offers of "only" 30K a year--with a BA and such a huge gap of paid employment, that sounds pretty good! I graduated with my MA a few years ago and earned 35K, with no experience gap. Take the job at 30K that most interests you, get some experience, go back to school, and THEN expect more. Think of yourself as someone just out of college--that is how employers are looking at you.

I would suggest you hire a career coach to go over your resume, help you with interviewing techniques, and generally assist you with presenting yourself in the best light. A skills-based resume can help people understand the value in the volunteer jobs you've held. In addition, though I hate to suggest it, I tend to agree that you need to work on your attitude a bit. It's hard when everyone is saying "no," but you need to look upbeat. As for those wrinkles, they're fine, but please don't emphasize them! A little high quality makeup never hurts; it reinforces the positive attitude.

hiring manager-- "to" IS the correct word-- it's not even a typo, you freak!

Karen, perhaps you could consider going into business your self? You seem very capable and if others aren't seeing that, thenjust hire yourself! PErhaps as a free-lance writer?

Good luck!

Karen, I know personally of 2 women in your shoes and what worked for them was temping. In both situations, it led to a solid, well- and benefits-paying job. Good luck!

Hiring manager, I bet you only hire young people because no one with any experince would put up with you.

Hiring manager objected to the sentence, "I am over and done with to many." The word "to" is used correctly.

At the end of the comment hiring manager said, "Nobody would put you in charge of recent college graduates and pay you more then (sic) they are getting. The correct word is "than."

Good luck, Karen. Be careful to take advice from knowledgeable people.

Karen really should contact the Post's Martha Hamilton who writes about employment and ageism etc in the Sunday Business section. Recently Ms Hamilton wrote about how some of her former Post colleagues who had taken early retirement got "fabulous" new jobs, were "Fending off job offers." None of them are in business for themselves, that takes enormous energy and capital and is often not viable for anyone out of the workforce for long. These are people in their 50s and 60s. Perhaps she would have some ideas, or write about the situation for others like Karen, which is probably very common.

"Hiring manager, I bet you only hire young people because no one with any experince would put up with you."

But people with EXPERIENCE will!

But people with EXPERIENCE will!

No, they won't.

Karen, if you're interested in paralegal work, what about law school? If you go to a state school, it's much less expensive than a private law school, and graduating from law school would immediately level the playing field for you. You'd go in as a first-year associate, but with first year associates in most markets making more than $100,000, such a position could have an immediate impact on your economic situation.

I agree that temp agencies would be a good idea for Karen, and that $30 thousand is probably a realistic wage because of the gap in employment and the competition. And I think the comment focusing on writing about medical issues, esp arthritis is also an excellent idea. She probably has the potential to soar above people like "hiring manager" who just wants an excuse to insult someone, under the guise of giving advice.

I don't know what types of jobs you have looked into, but here are some thoughts of mine.

1. Non-profit fundraiser- you've done a lot of community service and managed a budget. Taking care of 2 children with health issues may help with raising money for a company like the March or Dimes which I know has an office in White Plains, NY. That should be within commuting distance for you.

2. Be self employed as something like a Mary Kay or Avon Representative.

3. Event Coordinator- the work you did in the community and with your children's schools may help in this area.

These are just some thoughts. Good luck!

Does anyone else think her situation has more to do with being out of the work force for 20 years as opposed to ageism? I am just wondering because if she is trying to find a job as a medical writer or a technical writer, she is going to have to go take some classes.

Technical witting is very different from regular writing and requires either hands on training or skills taught in a class. I am not trying to be mean, I am just trying to point out that there may be another reason besides her age. I am 32 and would hire a young person right out of college with a degree in technical writing as opposed to someone with a 20 year gap. If I was presented with a young person right out of college and a 52 year old with 20 years experience, I would probably hire the 52 year old depending on what the job position entailed.

I am sorry to here about your children, I can't imagine how hard it was to take care of two children with arthritis.

I do hiring for a law firm, and in all honesty, Karen, I would look at your resume and discard. A twenty-year gap is too big for someone to re-enter the paralegal world. The practice of law has changed dramatically in the last two decades. My advice to you: take one of the offers. $30K is great for an entry level position, and let's face it, that's where you are right now. If you can, morph that job into one you want at the salary you require. Are there any junior paralegal jobs available? You could take that, and then grow into a more senior paralegal. Good luck to you.

What about a real estate agent?

My mom is going through the same thing. She's actually 60, but desparately looking for work. She has a Ph.D. in a social sciences field but hasn't been able to find work for over a year. Even contract and temp positions. She has looked all over the country--she is willing to move. The only gaps in her resume are due to unemployment.

I firmly believe that ageism is to blame. My advice to her is kind of worthless because we have totally different problems finding work.

What's the solution?

Karen, it might be worthwhile to go back to school long enough to update your paralegal certificate, if that's the type of work you want to do. So many things have changed for paralegals in the last twenty years - using online research sources (like Westlaw and Lexis), word processing on computers, electronically filing documents, etc. - that it might make you more marketable for you to make clear that you know how to do that stuff. It does take training, so the employers will most likely want to know that you can do it coming in the door.

This is what happens when you are out of the workforce for 20 years.

"This is what happens when you are out of the workforce for 20 years."

Yeah, that sure was stupid and lazy of her to stay at home and care for her chronically ill children. What kind of a mother would do that?

It wasn't a judgement, just a fact.

This is what happens when you are out of the workforce for 20 years.

Posted by: | July 17, 2007 09:11 AM

Not always.

"Secondly, for someone with a BA, $30K sounds about right, especially for someone out of the workforce for so long."

30K sounds like it might be a starting point for someone out of the workplace for 20 years (I'm with those who say you have to start somewhere) but I have a hard time accepting it as reasonable with a BA. I've got only a BA and have been making over 6 figures for about 5 years. I've made more than 30K a year since about 1994.

That said, it's my experience, not my school, that commands the salary. 20 years out of the workplace? Better leverage the stuff you can do that no one else can. There's lots of office managers out there with more recent experience. And most entry-level writing jobs pay badly.

I am very sympathetic to Karen's situation and I understand why she was out of the workforce for so long, although I can't imagine how very stressful life must have been with two sick children.

My 2 cents:I've been an associate at a big DC law firm (never a partner or hiring person, so take with a grain of salt) and I would be surprised if they hired someone who was coming out of law school at age 56 as an associate with a 20 year employment gap. The competition can be brutal and most large firms hire associates who are willing and able to work 80 hour weeks for 8-10 years for the opportunity to have the opportunity to make jr partner and a few more to make share. Corp people-same thing? It's not as easy as walking in the door with a law degree. I'd say consider local government positions-maybe administrative support to the school board or local disability agency. Maybe a paralegal at a disability advocacy org. That might combine your interests, experience and contacts. Good luck!

Karen,

what about taking a couple of word processing courses or doing it online and working as a secretary? Here in DC, we are desparate for secretaries (especially with any IP experience), but it you can type and are well organized, places would be willing to teach their specialty (like IP). And secretaries make quitre a bit more thatn $30K and provide beneifts. Now, that maky require you going into NY, but its worth a shot

"I think part of the problem is you're asking for more than you're worth. I don't mean that personally -- I mean that "nowadays," a Masters is the new BA."

I totally agree with this. If this had been as much as uttered while I was in college, I don't think I would've found it so hard once I was out in the real world.

The truth is, having a Bachelor's doesn't go as far as it used to. Even for women. And in some fields, even more advanced degrees are not producing so much in regards to salary.

I finally learned and accepted that having the degree will not guarantee getting a job. It's work experience and determination. In one year, I went from one job to the next with an $8,000 salary increase. I don't think that's too shabby. And with the need to survive, I really can't be picky.

It's not a matter really of being offered less than you're worth. You are worth more, but in the ever-changing workforce, you have to prove it. Also, the types of credentials you have might not match what is needed for the jobs to which you are applying.

Sometimes taking a step back to reassess is the best thing you can do. You'll probably view it as making a compromise or sacrifice, but $30 k is better than 0, right?

I just posted at 9:21 and I am so sorry for all of the typos -- I will proof more carefully -- wow -- sorry again

"This is what happens when you are out of the workforce for 20 years."

Yeah, that sure was stupid and lazy of her to stay at home and care for her chronically ill children. What kind of a mother would do that?

One who does not value her career, obviously.

I am really surprised by this. This woman was retired for 20 years and now wants to get back into the workforce. Certainly $30k per year is low, but I'm not yet 40 and have run three consulting businesses (plus an ebay sales company making 4 digits per year) and of course holding a full-time day job since 1993- that's why I'm not making $30k per year. I cannot believe someone retired so young and didn't, you know, write a book or start a small part-time company or 12 years ago when ebay.com started, why didn't they open up some kind of small resale company like I did? I mean, for years in the 1990s I would resell items I found at garage sales for twice the cost I paid. Did you just see everyone else start their own company and shrug?

I am pretty liberal, but I see the problem here is that the author is unwilling to start her own company and expects someone else to have already started a company for her to work in. This is the United States, my view of the American Dream is for people to have all the opportunities to get out there and make something of themselves. So start your own company and stop looking for someone else to do it for you.

The fact that you think planning the high school gala is worthy of mention is, well, cute in ways. A friend of mine is a full-time manager and in her spare time at night runs her elementary school PTA and planned a teacher appreciation dinner, spring carnival, holiday pageant, thanksgiving food donation thingy- on top of a regular job. Your expectations of yourself are so low that you think the gala is, like, you know... worthy of mention without realizing that there are some schools where all the parents who organize these things do so on top of regular jobs.

I mean at a recent picnic a stay at home mom told me she wanted to find a nice job at 6 hours a day. I reminded her that I work at least 90 minutes of overtime work at night 7 days a week- so I put in, lets say, 50 hours or more each week. She scoffed that she didn't want to work for that kind of a company. What other kind of corporation is out there that doesn't require at least 45 hours a week for mid-level managers and above?

My gut just tells me to stop relying on someone else to have a company you can work for, start your own.

One who does not value her career, obviously.

Posted by: | July 17, 2007 09:23 AM

I completely value my career. I went to college and law school and have worked very hard to build my career. But if my kids had those issues, I would have quit in a heartbeat to be there for them and do what needed to be done. After that situation was taken care of (they grew up and did not need day to day care), I would look for what to do now. I admire Karen very much for all that she sacrificed. That is truly amazing in my opinion. I really sympathize with what she is facing and hope that we can offer some concrete assistance!

I see the problem here is that the author is unwilling to start her own company and expects someone else to have already started a company for her to work in.

Must be hard to find employees for your own company. Not everyone can be a company of one.

"Your expectations of yourself are so low that you think the gala is, like, you know... worthy of mention without realizing that there are some schools where all the parents who organize these things do so on top of regular jobs."

Good summation!

Babysitters make pretty good money and you have experience with special needs kids.

Thanks for a great column. I have this fantasy about moving from part-time to "serious" full-time work in my fifties when my kids are in college. I'll read this as a cautionary tale.

I'm curious as to the remarks about physical appearance. You state that interviewers see wrinkles and that that affects their perception of your worth.
My friends and I have had this conversation -- about whether you should have a face lift or Botox in order to give Human Resource Managers a glowing impression of your youth and vigor. I undestand even some men do things like that before going on job interviews if they're older. What do the rest of you think about this? How importance is physical appearance and how far should people go to look younger to employers?

I firmly believe that ageism is to blame. My advice to her is kind of worthless because we have totally different problems finding work.

What's the solution?
-----

Form a consultancy. Sell your services as a consultant and not a full-time employee. That doesn't solve health insurance, but it will solve employment.

"Karen, if you're interested in paralegal work, what about law school? If you go to a state school, it's much less expensive than a private law school, and graduating from law school would immediately level the playing field for you. You'd go in as a first-year associate, but with first year associates in most markets making more than $100,000, such a position could have an immediate impact on your economic situation."

Oh my God, please don't tell her to go to law school. MISTAKE. I don't know where you live that first-years routinely start in $100,000 positions, but speaking as a veteran of law firm hiring, I can tell you that the only people who routinely waltz right into those positions are top-tier graduates - Ivy League grads or the equivalent. The law firms that pay those salaries are notoriously snobbish when it comes to hiring. People from state schools may or may not be able to get good jobs after graduation - it's a crap shoot. People who graduate at the very top of their state law school classes are in okay shape, but the rest of the class has to hustle. Add to that the ageism she would surely encounter as a brand-new associate in her mid-fifties, (because the big-money firms expect longgg hours - the thinking is, can a 55-year-old keep up with the 25-year-olds right out of law school?) and she's looking at several thousand dollars worth of debt, even from a state school, and possibly no job. So going to law school would NOT necessarily level the playing field. In fact, it might leave her worse off than before. Unless she can 1) get a full-ride scholarship to law school, *and* 2) guarantee that she will have good enough grades to make law review, I would strongly counsel against going to law school.

Again, I speak from experience. I'm reporting the attitudes I encountered at several law firms, although I don't condone them.

you know? I mean? thingy?

Are you kidding? Small wonder you have to be your own boss, because no one (except maybe "hiring manager" would offer a decent job to an inarticulate twit like you.

Must be hard to find employees for your own company. Not everyone can be a company of one.
----

Right, but a paralegal CAN act as a consultant. A friend of mine is an IT expert with 20 years in the business. Before ageism hit his career (he stayed in tech too long before moving to management) he started acting as an IT consultant for lawyers defending computer-related cases. He bills $175 per hour for that work and did at least 5 cases that I know of. Google the word "consultant" or "Start your own consultancy" and see what the results are. This is an online world in 2007 and all barriers to entry have been removed- people in poor cities in India run their own consultancies online for $5 per hour- and they're super-successful. Are you saying we don't have the smarts to compete with that in our own country? I'm saying think outside the box to succeed.

When I was hiring, a lot depended on the energy level of the person interviewing. If the energy was high, we found a place for them. If it wasn't, we had difficulty justifying the hire.

As someone stated earlier, there are young 50-somethings and there are old 50-somethings. My parents, both in their seventies, go galavanting around the world and are both high energy. They still work full-time because they are able and both enjoy their work. My in-laws are old in their seventies and do not go anywhere outside of a 30 minute drive. Even that exhausts them.

How you are will come across in the interview very quickly. That goes for anyone looking for work.

I think he gave her good advice, everyone is not a writer and even some writer are casual on this blog.

So, get a life and give her some advice of your own.

I don't know where you live that first-years routinely start in $100,000 positions, but speaking as a veteran of law firm hiring, I can tell you that the only people who routinely waltz right into those positions are top-tier graduates - Ivy League grads or the equivalent.

This is not true. The firm I work for hires primarily from tier two and even three schools and the starting salary for a first-year is $135K. And I live in Raleigh, NC.

That said, I would not recommend law school as a good career move for a 52-year old, unless you're willing to work until you're 75 to make it worth your while.

How importance is physical appearance and how far should people go to look younger to employers?

Posted by: Armchair Mom | July 17, 2007 09:28 AM

You're only going to keep looking older as time passes, so it'll take more and more effort to hold back the floodgates of aging. Illegality of age discrimination aside, I personally would want to know if a boss thinks such superficiality of appearance is important, because I wouldn't want to work for him or her.

It sounds like you're facing the same barriers that recent college grads face. You basically have to convince someone to take a chance on you. It maybe that you're sending off entitlement vibes because of your (unrealistic) expectations. Also, if you're still a caretaker for your children and you're letting potential employers know that, they may be worrying about absenteeism. Those are HUGE red flags for an employer.

I suggest adjusting your short term expectations for type of work and salary. Do one of the dull jobs that pays $30K with no benes for a year or two. Work your butt off, make contacts, try to get a promotion or a better job. I know it's frustrating at your age, but you really aren't going to become any more attractive to an employer until you get some recent experience.

You may want to contact your college's career and alumnni offices. GWU probably has a decent network. The can give guidance and help establish contacts.

I'm with some of the other posters - while I really feel for the author, and I'm positive she hasn't just been sitting around for the past 20 years -- a 20 year employment gap is HUGE, and any skills you acquired during those years from taking care of children or chairing galas just don't count in the workplace today. Her work experience 20 years ago was probably so vastly different from what she might encounter in the workplace today, that I wouldn't blame an employer from totally discounting it. Additionally, I do agree that she's overselling herself a bit - a paralegal certificate just isn't that big of a deal.

Although I agree that age discrimination is a big problem, in this particular situation, I really doubt that age has all that much to do with it. Employers probably look at her as someone with zero experience and a basic degree, so when they see that she might be a worthwhile candidate based on her drive and dedication, they offer her an entry-level position - for which $30k sounds about right. If she's as good as she says she is, she'll quickly get promotions and raises, but you can't expect to just leap back in without proving yourself. :(

Please stop telling her that $30K is a good offer. This is what she said:

The only interviews I get are for jobs that pay less than $30,000 a year and offer no benefits.

LESS than 30K. No benefits. It is NOT a good offer. Please read more carefully.

because no one (except maybe "hiring manager" would offer a decent job to an inarticulate twit like you.
----

you honestly have no sense of humor do you? Ok, great, you saw my joke but it didn't penetrate your head that it was a joke. Dude, lighten up. sheesh. Keep reminding yourself... these are comments... in a blog...

I could be wrong, but issn't she saying that she was only out for 10 years? It sounds to me like she spent the last ten years working the back office in her husband's firm. I think that the problem might be how she terms it. It doesn't matter that the back office was her husband's or the guy/gal's down the street - list it as a viable work entry and let the explaining happen when and if it needs to in the interview. And list each major volunteer opportunity as a job as well. If it took your time, and considerable amounts of it, and required skills and management, then it counts as a career event.

He bills $175 per hour for that work and did at least 5 cases that I know of... people in poor cities in India run their own consultancies online for $5 per hour- and they're super-successful.

You've just contradicted your own advice.

Your advice surprised me. I've never been to law school or been an associate, but from reading this blog, it seems that the lawyers have incredibly long workweeks. even though the eventual salaries may be high, I think that many people in their 50's would think more than twice about taking on the expense of law school. As a 50-year-old, I don't have the inclination to work 60-80 hour weeks. I do not have one foot in the grave and am capable of lots of hard work, but at my age, I really am not interested in the very high level of work activity that lawyers seem to do in the early stages of their careers. Without that, can you really make the big bucks?

I have worked since age 18, so I am looking forward to retirement, not starting a new career. Someone who has been out of the work force may be eager to push themselves as hard as law students and associates.

My recommendation would be to take any job that you won't hate so that you can at least get a recommendation from a current employer for your next position.

I have been working for 32 years in various positions. Some I have liked a lot and some have been awful, but there has been nothing that I actually 'loved'. You can find something that you don't love completely and still feel good about the job and yourself.

Well, if Karen's problem is not the 20 year gap in her work history, it must be ageism. Some companies will employ older workers and give them advancement opportunities, but many employers have attitudes like those of the hiring manager who posted above. How can we combat this? Does consistant publicity about age discrimination help or hurt the situation? Is it worse for women than men? Would be interested in what others think?

You are getting the door slammed in your face because prospective employers believe that because of your age, you are going to ask for too much.

It turns out they were right. You are asking for too much.

When on earth did we get the to the idea that over 50 is old and no longer useful?

As a baby boomer, I can identify with you Leslie. I feel like a lifelong student, constantly trying to improve my education and resume just to keep up, but
as soon as an employer looks at you, or if you list employment that goes back more than ten years, you are perceived as a dinosaur that's ready for Medicare and a nursing home, no matter how skilled you are.

The same thing happened to my mother when she turned 50, at the hospital where she worked for over 20 years, and was at the top of the rung in her classification and pay level, management went through every dept. that wasn't unionized and fired every employee over 50 with trumped up charges and replaced them with young recent graduates with little experience and low pay.
Instead of fighting back, most (all women) had second incomes and they opted to retire early, except my mother who went to the NLB with her complaints to no avail and no backup. You have to be able to prove intent.
It was sad that so many do not fight age discrimination and most employers know that.
America throws out workers after the age of 50 like last weeks garbage, in search of cheap, young labor with no benefits.

Did anybody notice she doesn't want to do anything physical? I suppose there are health/weight issues, which employers can see or anticipate, in addition to age? SpEd teacher assistants have decent pay and great benefots. She can get teacher cert in reasonable time while on the job (my sister did such career change after being a tire shop manager for many years.) Babysitting or nanny? Plumber apprentice, and I'm not kidding: our appartment building just hired 70 y.o. guy for the job, at $25/hour. Basically he is a helper to (much more highly paid) plumber in case the latter needs extra pair of hands. The lady is too proud to get her hads dirty or sick and tired of kids after raising two? People out here are willing to pay for her labour, not for her intellect.

Try working for a government employer - local, state, or federal level. The pay isn't always great but they offer benefits. I also think they are more careful of not discriminating or even appearing to discriminate based on age.

To DCer - while starting your own company is definitely a good option, it is not for everyone. I am also in my 50s and do nothing on eBay - buy or sell. Why would I ever start an eBay business? I would hate having to store the merchandise and pack it all up to ship it out.

I spent my life shopping in person being able to touch and smell. I like it. I'm not afraid of trying new things, but I'm sure I'm not alone in sticking with things I like. I only say this to point out that what works for some doesn't work for others.

"Does anyone else think her situation has more to do with being out of the work force for 20 years as opposed to ageism?"

I totally agree. With that much of an employment gap, the only opportunities are going to be entry level. I think a lot of good advice has been given here already.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that she doesn't indicate she has a specific job/career in mind. She would probably have a lot more success if she figured out what she wants to do. Then she could focus on getting the training, making contacts, tailoring her resume, etc. to those specific jobs.

She needs to have a goal that's much more specific than "a job that pays decent with benefits".

Karen, I feel for you; that's a tough situation. My only advice is to look beyond the typical want ads and monster.com job searches. (You may be doing this already, so I apologize if this is redundant). It seems to me that your resume is unusual, and most of the big companies who have advertised are looking for people who fit in a particular box -- X degree, Y years' experience, Z skills, etc. And people like you who don't fit neatly into that box will get dinged without even having a chance. Unfair, shortsighted, sure. But if these folks are getting 100 resumes for every position, they need to find some way to winnow it down.

My firm does tend to hire people with more unique histories and life stories. But we're a small shop, and we typically don't advertise for positions; if a really smart person comes along, we'll snap her up if we can find a way to make a position, but we're mostly dependent on people we know referring potential new hires to us (ie, people moving cross-country from another firm we work with).

It seems to me that you have likely made a LOT of contacts with the unpaid work you have been doing over the past 20 years. Might you be able to ask some of them to let you know if they hear of a position that suits your skills (again, if you haven't been doing so already)? I know my husband and I have had the best luck with networking -- not glad-handing schmoozefests (ish), but just building relationships with people we work with. My husband has gotten every job since his postdoc through word of mouth from people he worked with, and I found my current position that way (I wasn't even looking -- was b*tching to my stepmom about how boring my job was, and she kept telling me she knew this really, really smart lawyer in my field and I should really go talk to him).

Obviously, you then have to go land the job yourself. But even getting a foot in the door, with a built-in recommendation from someone your potential employer knows and trusts, will give you a leg up over everyone else who just sent their resumes in. I suspect that's even more critical for you, because you don't have a current employer in the same line of work who can tell your potential new boss how great you are. So having some sort of referral would really give them some confidence that you really are as good as they hope you are.

Remember, the folks who do the hiring are risk-averse -- no one will remember the three superstars they hired, but that one lazy do-nothing that it took the company 18 months to be able to fire will be permanently etched on their boss' brain. :-) Because you didn't follow the typical career path, they will see you as a risk. If someone else doesn't work out, the hiring guy can defend himself by pointing to his 3.8 in his major, 4 years direct hands-on experience, and great recommendations. But if you don't work out, it'll be, well, gee, she didn't work for 20 years, that didn't give you a clue? Thing is, people hiring for the typical career path want to see resumes with the typical career path, because it's safer for them. Since you chose to hop off that path 20 years ago, it's going to be very tough to hop back on it now. So either you need to be willing to start over at the beginning and take that $30K, or you need to look beyond the typical approach (smaller firms, creative interpretation of positions you're interested in, using word of mouth, setting up your own business, nonprofits, etc.).

No one has mentioned Linda Hirshman's controversial (here) Get to Work Manifesto. This is part of what she's talking about. Women quit paid work and then are suprised or frustrated or impoverished later when they need money. I hope this can be a lesson to younger women considering dropping out of paid work--time flies and you can't pick up where you left off.

Having said that, there are many good suggestions here for the poster. The 30k job would be a good start. Plan to be there a year or two to beef up your resume. Pick one where you can acquire additional skills and responsibilities for a paid employer (what I call bullets--resume bullets) that will make you more desirable to your next employer. Temping is also a great idea. Temping will get you into a variety of places and many employers who use temps make them permenent offers. Temping also gets current paid experience on your resume fast. Also, make sure you are looking your best. An updated look that includes hair, eyeglasses, wardrobe, accessories, etc is critical.

As hard as it may be, try to lose the attitude. I know it's hard when you feel something is not fair, but it is hurting your job search. If people on the blog can pick up on it, interviewers can too. Good luck.

As a person who has done a lot of hiring and interviewing, here's what I hear from her: "Based on little more than my 30-year-old college degree and paralegal certificate, I have concluded that I no longer have to prove myself to anyone, I am too good to take an entry position and work my way up, and if you do hire me and I do not rapidly advance within your company, I will become a poisonous force in the office or perhaps file a lawsuit against you." Yikes!
Here's my suggestion, and it works whether you are 20 or 60. Take the best job you can find; work hard to show you are valuable; then, after a reasonable period of time (perhaps 9 or 12 months), explain to the employer that you want to move up or out, and do it in a classy way so that you can get a reference if you don't get a raise or promotion. Managers in the current economy are desperate for responsible, educated workers -- we are at functionally full employment in this nation, remember? -- and if you prove yourself, you will be rewarded within twelve months. Yes, bad employers exist, but only a small percentage of people are economically irrational, so if you are good and you are creating value, you will quickly find someone to reward you. And remember, contacts and context are everything. If you take an entry job, you will get many non-salary benefits such as experience with modern office environments and a network of co-workers who can vouch for you (even if the boss doesn't) and who can tell you about new, better opportunities in the same firm or outside it. This is what people mean when they use cliches like "get back in the game." Think about this from the employers' perspective: why would they want to take a chance on someone who doesn't seem to be confident that, starting from an entry position, she can demonstrate her value to the company?

The postings so far have left out the most important factor. "It's not what you know, it's whom you know." I got my job because my employer knew me and had seen my work. My son got his job through someone he knew. So did his wife. In fact, the same fellow arranged the job interviews for both of them. My former girl friend got her job at the hospital where her husband practiced medicine.

This business of "resumés" and "credentials" and "experience" and the like is all well and good, and certainly you have to have them. But in the last analysis, the bosses promote the people they play golf with, and they hire the children of the people they play golf with. A "friend of a friend" who is willing to give you a chance to prove yourself at his company is worth more than a stack of resumés and a non-Harvard degree.

Working Mom X, can't speak for Raleigh, but 9:31 and Milano are accurate about large northeast and mid atlantic firms. You are not likely to be an associate at a large NY (or DC) firm without going to a top tier school unless you are an absolute standout and even that would be rare. And first you have to get into and graduate from those top tier law schools. They're not giving away 165k starting salaries.

"This is what happens when you are out of the workforce for 20 years."

Yeah, that sure was stupid and lazy of her to stay at home and care for her chronically ill children. What kind of a mother would do that?

One who does not value her career, obviously.

DCer - your tone is completely condescending and not even remotely helpful. The fact that you can't seem to understand why everybody didn't start and Ebay business when you did is as silly as asking why everyone didn't marry a terrific spouse who is a high earner. This woman is asking for help not criticism of things she did or didn't do 20 years ago. I would also argue that volunteering while caring for chronically ill children is a lot more taxing than doing so on top of paid work. At least with paid work you get vacation time. I think it is laudable that while her family was in such need, she was still willing to extend herself. Until you walk in her shoes, give her a break.

Posted by: | July 17, 2007 09:23 AM

Or one who truly values her family.

Maybe take a year to earn a Master's in Journalism?

My son just got a job as a paralegal/legal assistant. He graduated with a degree in liberal arts in May. It pays about $30K.

He never did any internships or office-type things over the summer so he has about zero on the experience chart.

So I think that $30K probably is about what you should expect.

With my son we said, "take it." Getting started is the most important thing. We will subsidize his auto insurance/car for awhile to help him along.

It is no fun to be over 50 and job hunting. There is always someone younger who will work for less or be perceived to put more time in to beat you out.

One totally crazy thing I would hope is that you are coloring any gray hair, and making an effort to fit into something size 14 or below. It sucks, but those kinds of things make immediate impressions and when you are up against twenty-somethings you have to think about it.

Why does everyone keep saying this woman has been out of work for 20 years? She said she managed a back office. From my experience working for a small, family-run business, that takes a lot of work!

Definitely brush up on your computer skills! I have had hired, then had to let go, women in their 50s and 60s who claimed to have computer skills and then approached the keyboard as if it were a monster they would attack them if they made a wrong move. Very frustrating...

Matt in Aberdeen, you are completely correct about the importance of networking. But that's not going to help her until she figures out what she wants to do. Are you going to recommend someone for a job when their goal is "a job that pays decent and has benefits"? Of course not. Not to mention you won't even know who to recommend them to.

On the other hand, say you have a friend who has a strong desire to get into event planning. Then you can say "I can talk to my contact at the company we hired to plan our last department event and see if she can help you." It's so much easier to network when you have a concrete goal.

«No one has mentioned Linda Hirshman's controversial (here) Get to Work Manifesto. This is part of what she's talking about. Women quit paid work and then are suprised or frustrated or impoverished later when they need money. I hope this can be a lesson to younger women considering dropping out of paid work--time flies and you can't pick up where you left off.»

«Posted by: used to be a career counselor | July 17, 2007 09:57 AM»

Linda Hirshman, her lesson is Do not be a Staying In the Residence Mother, be a Working Outside the Residence Mother because that is the only way to get money and power and money and power are all that matter. Also, Only one child is Linda Hirshman's lesson because with more than one child you have to move to Suburbs where there are not convenient Chinese take out restaurants.

Why does everyone keep saying this woman has been out of work for 20 years? She said she managed a back office. From my experience working for a small, family-run business, that takes a lot of work!

Maybe because the company revenues never got above $10000 a year and mostly were used for tax write-off. If HMs don't throw her resume right away they Google the company.

"Why does everyone keep saying this woman has been out of work for 20 years? She said she managed a back office. From my experience working for a small, family-run business, that takes a lot of work!

Posted by: | July 17, 2007 10:04 AM"

Because that's how she described it:

"I was going to stay home for 10 years until my two kids were settled in school. Ten became 20 when both my children developed spondyloarthropathy"

I agree with you that she doesn't actually have a 20-year gap. But how she presents herself may play a part in her problem finding a job -- if your "personal story" is that you stayed home with the kids for 20 years and "helped out" as you had time, an interviewer is going to look at you differently than if you present yourself as having spent that time running the office for the family business.

"Definitely brush up on your computer skills! I have had hired, then had to let go, women in their 50s and 60s who claimed to have computer skills and then approached the keyboard as if it were a monster they would attack them if they made a wrong move. Very frustrating..."

This is where implementing a simple typing or Microsoft test would come in handy. Employment agencies do it all the time.

It seems hard to imagine age discrimination going away on the benefits front while companies are self insured.

I agree with other posters that your energy in interviews is key. You can overcome the age by showing your high energy and a good attitude through your appearance - the first impression is important. Invest in a good haircut and color and a makeup lesson and good products for your skin. Also check that your wardrobe is modern and flatters you. I've witnessed interviewees as a receptionist and appearance is key: if they looked bedraggled or rough around the edges, they didn't get a call back and the interviewer would comment on it later. Might sound shallow, but part of the decision to hire is if they would enjoy working with you, and looking good (as in you take care of yourself and find yourself worthy of the effort) cannot hurt. Good luck!

Karen,

I think it's great you are looking for a career. Please don't give up! I returned to work after a 10 year gap. My new employer only cared that I could do the job, not that I had been out of the workforce. That said, the salary (p/t with benefits) is extremely low, and there have been moments when some younger people assumed I didn't know the technology (which I do -- I've kept up with all of it).

At the same time, you just need to find a career where there is high demand and hiring managers are relieved to find someone competent and who can get along with others. (People skills are still in demand!)

There are some careers that will be in demand nearly everywhere: development (fundraising) for example, where your breadth of experience will help you.

It's a real career, and if you plan on working another 15 years, you have time to develop a long range plan.

Or, telemarketing, or telesales. It may not look glamorous, but there is a demand in many places.

I'm a few years behind you, but in the past year, I've jumped back into the labor pool and am ready to look for yet another position.

I would also look at not-for-profits and universities. There are a wide array of choices there.

As an added note, my mother worked when the youngest in our family went to school, so she was 41, but her "real career" started at 49. She retired at 65.

Don't give up! Hang in there!

We all have to reasonable expectations when job hunting. The employers would be more impressed if you'd take one of the lower paying jobs. I've taken time off for kids and gone back to work and I'll probably do it again. Get your foot in the door and prove what you can do.

Try working for a government employer - local, state, or federal level. The pay isn't always great but they offer benefits. I also think they are more careful of not discriminating or even appearing to discriminate based on age.

ever apply for a government job? it can take a year or more to even get a response, let alone an interview. Having filled out many of those gov't 'skills knowledge abilities' apps, I can tell you that a govt job may be a wonderful thing but you need to know someone inside to wade through all the red tape and long wait to even be acknowledged. Karen should apply but she should expect a long wait.

To Hiring Manager:
When Karen said she was over and done with "to many" she was correct. You are wrong when you say "too many". I can't believe I have to explain this to you but here goes. Karen meant that to many people she is over and done with--not that too many or an overabundance of people found her over and done with.
If you are going to anxiously pick apart Karen's writing and typing, you owe it to her and yourself to at least be correct about it. Now let's ask the question: who would want to hire you? Gee whiz.....

I second the "government job is not a good option" comment. If you know someone who wants to hire you, great. Otherwise, not only is the application process impossibly long and Byzantine, but the people doing the hiring are even LESS willing to take risks on people they don't know. You think it's hard to fire someone from a private sector job, try doing it from a civil service position.

I second the "government job is not a good option" comment. If you know someone who wants to hire you, great. Otherwise, not only is the application process impossibly long and Byzantine, but the people doing the hiring are even LESS willing to take risks on people they don't know. You think it's hard to fire someone from a private sector job, try doing it from a civil service position.

Posted by: NotAMom | July 17, 2007 10:20 AM

Karen's already been job-hunting for two years. If she'd applied right away to the government, she might have a job by now.

"I could be wrong, but issn't she saying that she was only out for 10 years? It sounds to me like she spent the last ten years working the back office in her husband's firm."

I read it as she considers calling an plumber to fix the leaking toilet to be "consulting with vendors." I don't mean that to be snarky, but I seriously thought she was just phrasing household running tasks in work terms.

For reference, I worked as a technical writer for years, then went to law school. Now I write briefs most of the time, and short stories and plays in my spare time.

Do NOT go to law school. That is a terrifically bad idea. It is expensive, and the time you will have to recoup that money is not enough to make it worth the trouble. Also, if you are interested in a creative job this will crush your soul. Hiring good paralegals is very tough - hiring lawyers is pretty easy. If you were willing to USE that Paralegal credential, and do a little bit of updating on training, you could almost certainly get a job as a paralegal. Trouble is, you want to write. That is an extremely competitive field, a bunch of young people will work for very little. That's your competition, and apparently they want it worse than you do. You are going to HAVE to take a job for a low salary to get your foot in the door. That is what all of us have done: you may have paid your dues, but it was in the wrong place.

What I'd recommend is that you get a paralegal job if you need money, and do some writing on the side. Work up your portfolio, get things published, and bring that portfolio with you to look for a writing job. If you seriously want to retool, then work at the retooling like a job.

As for the paralegal gig, I hire paralegals. I like women in your age range: back then, there were fewer options for women, and I know that those women are smarter and more capable than what I can hire out of school these days. I can get more person for my money! I will always prefer to hire a woman in your age range -- call it sexism or agism -- than some young snap who doesn't know how to work.

So that would be my advice, and I have gotten jobs as a writer (although you probably wouldn't consider what I did very sexy - I was well-paid and quite successful at it) and I do the writing that I enjoy in my spare time. What most people think of as "writing jobs" aren't the kind of writing people think will be exciting, as a rule. What's critical to the writing world that you can demonstrate as a paralegal? Working on deadline and excruciating attention to detail. Working for demanding people, and knowing how to be a team player. Get your feet wet back in the game as a paralegal, work on the dream in your spare time.

The employers are the ones with the jobs and the power to offer or withold them.

While there might be larger societal or organizational issues at work, the job of the hiring manager is to use his or her experience to hire who they believe is the best person to do the job. It is not to be fair to a certain class of workers, it is not to give people a chance, it is not to contort themselves to see a candidate's experience in a way that allows the candidate to get what s/he wants.

I hire candidates who I think can do the job - so if someone isn't getting hired, it's because I think they can't or there are other candidates who I think can do it better. I'm paid to accurately predict that. So - while issues of whether that is right or wrong are "interesting" and of interest to the candidate - they really aren't to the hiring manager. The candidate is either able to persuade me they can do the job or they can't.

He bills $175 per hour for that work and did at least 5 cases that I know of... people in poor cities in India run their own consultancies online for $5 per hour- and they're super-successful.

You've just contradicted your own advice.
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How? By saying that everyone can start a consultancy? You are aware, right, that I was talking about two different positions, one who can appear in court as an expert witness, and one who will do your medical transcriptions. I get it that people like to be funny and everything, but your post makes no sense. I contradicted nothing.

HR people are notorious morons when it comes to the English language. I was once rejected by an employment agency because I wrote in my cover letter of a desire to "effect change". The functionary at the agency gave it a red mark because she thought "effect" could only be a noun and it should be "affect". Never mind that "affect change", MUCH LIKE "over and done with too [sic!] many" makes absolutely no sense.

Look, the author needs to accept the first job she is offered that has benefits (even if it's $20 or $25K). If she is as ambitious and trainable as she says, she will rapidly rise above her desired $30,000 threshold or find something better.

Karen if you haven't already tried it, you should rewrite your resume as a functional resume (instead of chronological). You list everything by skill or by project so that what you do is highlighted instead of any gaps. Also I have found that calling people that I have applied to and saying something like "I really wanted to work there because..... and I think I would be a good fit because a, b and c" helps a LOT.

By saying that everyone can start a consultancy? You are aware, right, that I was talking about two different positions

Yes. Very few people who do this will be able to charge $175 unless they have an unusually high level of expertise. There's a far greater risk that a person starting their own business will initially have to compete against the $5/hour Indian.

You might want to skip looking for Federal jobs, since as other have mentioned, the hiring process is slow, however, you might want to try state and local government. The pay is not as high as the private sector, but usually the benefits are pretty good - and offered to all full time people.

I had a state government job about 10 years ago. The hiring process was very similar to a private firms. Nothing like a federal job. County government would be an option too. Depending on where you, the breadth of opportunity may be as great as in state government. (I'd bet you could find almost all the same positions in Fairfax County gov. as you could for the state of Virginia.)

I commend the writer for taking time for her kids. I'm a 20 something with arthritis and can't imagine having had to deal with it when I was a child or how hard it would have been for my parents.

That being said, I've been in a position where I needed a job and couldn't find anything that was commensurate with my skill or education. Regardless of the reasons, I decided to take the best job offered. If you need a job, you can't be above taking something below your skill set or pay wishes. At least it seems the writer's husband is able to provide health insurance. When you need a job, you have to take what you get, even if it means being underemployed. Then you just keep looking. Try to figure out how your job can parlay into something better.

I understand that she's frustrated because she believes that she's being discriminated against. Well, I'm young, so I can't understand completely, but I have faced other discriminatory issues - youth, illness, gender, etc. The thing is, if it is discrimination, unless you can prove it, it doesn't help to dwell. If its that the job market is tight and employers are leery on taking a chance on someone with a large employment gap, then start working. Show them that you have the skills and are willing to work hard. Most employers take notice.

Why would I ever start an eBay business? I would hate having to store the merchandise and pack it all up to ship it out.

I spent my life shopping in person being able to touch and smell. I like it. I'm not afraid of trying new things, but I'm sure I'm not alone in sticking with things I like. I only say this to point out that what works for some doesn't work for others.

------

right, but one undercurrent of this discussion is that society has changed as radically as it did from 1966-1970. Everything has gone online. You don't have to change, but first, I just turned 40, and second, isn't this article about someone's resistance to change shooting them in the foot?

So, you don't want to make money on ebay (and you can't picture using a wholesaler so you don't have to store the stuff and pack it yourself, fair enough, that's complex and I mentioned garage sales), but that doesn't mean the next hiring manager has to respect your dislike of online commerce, right?

Sting Ordered to Pay $51,000 to Ex-Chef

LONDON (AP) -- An employment tribunal ordered Sting and his wife, Trudie Styler, on Tuesday to pay a former chef $51,000 in compensation after she won a sexual-discrimination claim against them.

Jane Martin, 41, won her claim in May. She said she was fired after she became pregnant.

At a hearing earlier this year, Martin said she had worked for the 55-year-old pop star and his wife for eight years, cooking meals for them and guests including Madonna and Elton John.

She said Styler grew unhappy with her after she became pregnant in 2005, making her work long hours and growing angry when she took time off work because of illness.

Martin, who accused Styler of having a "grandiose ego," left her job under disputed circumstances in April 2006.

The panel at an employment tribunal in Southampton, southern England, said in its May ruling that Martin had been unlawfully dismissed by Lake House Estate, Sting and Styler's management company, and was a victim of sexual discrimination.

Sting and Styler said they had already launched an appeal.

Silly question, but does her husband's job provide any benefits (I'm thinking health insurance)?

I think it may be time to simply take a job, while pursuing a better job. If you still haven't found one, after 6-9 months you may be in a postition to negotiate for more money, or benefits.

Karen, I empathize with you COMPLETELY. Also am a woman in her fifties, thirty years of Federal Government experience, including two in the Executive Office of the President in the mid-1990s. After leaving the USG, the only work I could find was as a temp or contract worker without benefits and, while they'll never admit it, employers DO practice age discrimination, particularly in regards to mature women. I continue to apply for positions, but after over a year of being interviewed by twentysomethings who think I'm at death's door, it's getting to be a little frustrating!

right, but one undercurrent of this discussion is that society has changed as radically as it did from 1966-1970. Everything has gone online. You don't have to change, but first, I just turned 40, and second, isn't this article about someone's resistance to change shooting them in the foot?

So, you don't want to make money on ebay (and you can't picture using a wholesaler so you don't have to store the stuff and pack it yourself, fair enough, that's complex and I mentioned garage sales), but that doesn't mean the next hiring manager has to respect your dislike of online commerce, right?

Posted by: DCer | July 17, 2007 10:39 AM

I still prefer buying clothes that I have tried on. The rise is different, brand-to-brand, and the cut matters greatly.

Anyone see the obama girl and guillani girl videos on YouTube - funny, funny stuff.

If it is ageism (and to some degree, it probably is), then you may want to consider how to update your look.

Are the clothes really dated? Does your resume look 20 years old? Is your make-up too brightly coloured and thus harsh? Would it be worth your time and money to get your hair lightly colored (lighter than your original hair color)?

Plus you may need to demonstrate that you have kept current on certain things. Microsoft, for example. Hit that community college and take advantage of some classes.

Definitely work your community. You volunteered, you know many people, don't be humble. Let people know you are looking for a job, what kind of job you are looking for, and keep at it.

It's frustrating, it's demoralizing, but eventually you will get something. You may have to bite down on the sh*t cupcake and take a 30K or less job, for 6-12 months. Either you will negotiate a raise and benefits, or you will find something that is more appropriate.

Best wishes.

DCer - your tone is completely condescending and not even remotely helpful. The fact that you can't seem to understand why everybody didn't start and Ebay business when you did is as silly as asking why everyone didn't marry a terrific spouse who is a high earner. This woman is asking for help not criticism of things she did or didn't do 20 years ago. I would also argue that volunteering while caring for chronically ill children is a lot more taxing than doing so on top of paid work.
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I think we can all agree that working as a garbageman, lifting heavy cans and sweating in the hot sun is way more taxing than working in an office, right? I think we can all agree that effort counts for zip in this world, right? We do have that understanding, correct, that we're talking about earning money and not expending effort, right? We all agree that there is no connection between effort and salary, right?

then why bring it up?

I am not suggesting that an ebay business is the answer to everyone's job plans, obviously. obviously! I barely made enough last year to declare my side business on my taxes.

And I think we all know if a family can live in Bergen County on one salary then it's HIGH so I suspect she did marry wealthy already, but I fail to see the connection between that and putting forth the effort to start a business.

What I'm trying to say is that the era of a one-job life is over, long over, and if the government dismantles social security then we're really in trouble. Everyone should have two jobs or at least have a spouse with two jobs. Because if you do not, then you can end up in a situation where you get fired at age 60 and no new company wants to take a chance, so you have to go solo until medicare kicks in.

Like it or not we are all on our own. Unless we vote in politicians who will increase the safety net, then all we have is ourselves.

I do not think I'm being condescending by suggesting the author turn this "back office management" job she said she had into a real consulting gig. If her skills are real then she can do this. If I'm being condescending, it's that I think she doesn't realize that two-earner families also share back office management duties and have the same skills and experience she has, rendering those skills suspect.

What jobs I've found and taken in the past two years are part-time work with no benefits. The work is unfulfilling and monetarily insignificant. So, tell me, what now? I am valuable, but how do I persuade potential employers of my potential contributions?

Well, do they have any full-time positions? If yes, then you simply need to start treating the jobs as though you are a full-time employee. Keep a record of what you have accomplished that was above-and-beyond the job description.

You don't persuade them with words, you demonstrate with your actions (and your record-keeping on what a whip-ass employee you've been).

I have been in the staffing industry for 12 years. Karen's main problem is not her own, it is that there is heavy competition in the NJ market. If she wasn't hired, it does not mean the interviewer saw her as completely without value. However, I'll bet the hiring manager found someone with more relevant experience. The person hiring is obligated to hire the best qualified individual for the job. In most cases, Karen just is not going to be the most qualified. No judgement as to what she should/should not have done for her children. It's just a fact. The solution is to be persistant. Don't stop interviewing - keep going!

Employers take shortcuts in evaluating people - some would say stereotype or judge on appearance. But it's true.

Everyone needs to be aware that if you look dowdy or out of date in clothes/hair/eyeglasses it telegraphs "I don't pay attention". Or if you are wearing ill-fitting or rumpled clothes or your nails are a mess, it says "not good on details".

As for the back office experience, again with shortcuts, I would think immediately that a husband's business with help from the wife at home with two children who are probably a handful isn't necessarily a fulltime job or one that provides lots of experience. (I would think that the person must be great at multitasking and tuning out noise! :-) ) I would worry that not being in a "traditional" office environment could mean that there's not a lot of recent experience with deadlines, dealing with difficult people, demanding bosses, etc. You'll have to sell this one carefully to highlight what you did do and learn. How many hours? How many employees in company?

I can certainly sympathize with Karen. After 11 years as a translator in Japan, I came back to the U.S. Based on the experiences of other returned expatriates, I knew what to expect. U.S. businesses would regard the skills and experience I gained in Japan as of "no value" regardless of how much I believed I had to offer based on them. If I was lucky, I could get a job for a Japansese auto firm or bank (fields in which I have no interest).

If you think foreign language skills are valued by U.S. business,think again. Why should they pay you for having professional-level fluency in a foreign language when they can hire all the native speakers they want for no extra? As for the cultural knowledge gained from an extended period overseas, forget it. American managers don't even know that they don't know anything about differences in culture, nor do they grasp how understanding those differences could help them succeed overseas. Sorry, I had to get that off my chest.

Anyway, I knew I would be back to square one. When I came back to the U.S. I went back to school and got a B.S. in chemistry, and when I graduated I knew that I would have to take an entry-level position just like the 21-year-olds I went to school with (with whom I could keep up just fine, by the way). I did get a job, but it is not nearly as fulfilling as I would like it to be -- welcome to the real world!

In my opinion, U.S. businesses today don't give a hoot for your potential -- only if you can do exactly what you want for them the minute you walk in the door. If you do analytical chemistry, for example, they only want you if you know how to operate the same type of instruments they have, for example. They wouldn't hire Max Planck unless he was experienced in using Waters or Agilent or whatever.

To some extent they have to be that way, to some extent I think they are shooting themselves in the foot. Frankly, I think there is an unrealistic cult-like mentality in the business world here in the U.S. today; I think we have lost sight of our good old American pragmatism.

"I think we can all agree that working as a garbageman, lifting heavy cans and sweating in the hot sun is way more taxing than working in an office, right? I think we can all agree that effort counts for zip in this world, right? We do have that understanding, correct, that we're talking about earning money and not expending effort, right? We all agree that there is no connection between effort and salary, right?

then why bring it up?"

I brought it up because you were pooh poohing her volunteer work by saying that many people do volunteer work on top of their paid jobs.

Your suggestions weren't condescending it was your tone and the incredulity with which you mentioned her (and everyone's) failure to start an Ebay business based on garage sale items.

I have so much respect and sympathy for this author, but before she unfortunately realized that her children were going to be chronically ill, she had already decided to take ten years off of work. That is a very long time to be out of the workforce, and while she was playing SAHM, others of us have gone on to further our careers. I do not have much sympathy for the SAHMs that choose to quit their careers (and I am talking about choosing to not work even though their children are healthy, not like the author's children who are chronically ill) and then want to whine and complain about how hard it is to get back in the workforce.

oops 10:58 was me.

Karen,

I am a manager in a federal government legal office and have hired a number of people who are "older" for both paralegal and administrative assistant positions, based on the education (which you have), obvious intelligence (both emotional and otherwise) and good writing skills. But they must know how to use current computer equipment and programs such as Word and Excel. If you have not already, you need to take a course and get a certificate to show you know how to use the basic programs. An employer does not want to have to train you completely in up-to-date technology skills. With that, a smart employer would be wise to give you a change. Age discrimination is illegal but it is also not smart, because some of the best people I have ever hired have been in their 40s or 50s. They tend to be more reliable and to develop more institutional loyalty than the Gen X and Gen Y crowd. Good luck with your search.

And I think we all know if a family can live in Bergen County on one salary then it's HIGH so I suspect she did marry wealthy already, but I fail to see the connection between that and putting forth the effort to start a business.

That's like saying if you live in Bethesda, MD, you married wealthy. We don't know when they bought their home, we don't know anything about what lifestyle they've led through the years.

Case in point, when my parents bought their home, they got it for less than 26K. You couldn't touch it for less than 400K today. Did they KNOW it would appreciate that much through the years? Nope. Back then, it was not "the place" to be. They simply were able to afford it.

Let's all start our own an ebay sales companies, and sell stuff to one another