And very well said.

" . . . he also used to refer to every guy my sisters and I dated, no matter how seriously or for how long, as "Bruce.")

This is brilliant! this kind of concrete, specific advice is priceless to me. Thank you!

As the mother of a 14 yo DD who at the moment thinks all boys are stupid, thanks to her younger brother, I think your advice is great! We encourage her to go out with groups of friends - male and female. Right now she has a tight circle of boys and girls that hang out together - they have known each other since kindergarten. I pray that when she does start noticing boys that she can remain level headed and find the right balance.

Bruce, I have to remember that one!

Thanks for sharing your insight!

What I want to know is why so many teens these days make such bad decisions when it comes to relationships? Yes, back when I was a teenager (a few years ago...), there were these kinds of situations, but not as many and not as traumatic. Is it lack of honesty, too much parenting (as in helicopter types), not enough parenting, or what?

Your advice and motives are questionable.

Your advice and motives are questionable.

Posted by: | July 10, 2007 07:41 AM

No more than yours.

If the young one moves out at age 18 and then their relationship explodes, that's their problem. Inasmuch as it is a parent's job to care for their children, the child who moved in with their boyfriend or girlfriend made a decision to move past the "parents taking care of everything" phase of life. Eighteen is young but obviously not young enough that they felt uncomfortable living with a boyfriend or girlfriend. If that relationship ends, it is up to the child to pick up the pieces; Mom and Dad should not swoop in and save them. This is all part of growing up and will force children to seriously consider what they're doing before they do it.

Basically what I'm saying is that parents need to set and stick to tough boundaries. Why is it that when a broken-hearted child comes running back, parents welcome him or her with open arms? This is the same child who disappointed you by leaving and not pursuing the type of life (in some instances) you wanted. Eighteen year olds are not prepared to make the types of decisions 20-somethings and 30-somethings make daily; i.e., how to manage finances, balancing work and home life, etc.

"There are almost no words to describe the helpless feeling of standing by and watching your of-age or soon to be of-age child make choices that are not, to put it mildly, in his or her best interests"

Including the feeling of seeing your first grandchild put up for adoption.

But what if the guy's name is Bruce?

I am so glad that my girls are past this age. It was a struggle but not as serious as with WorkingMom X.

This is a great guest blog with good advice.

As for driver guy's advice, what should a parent do? Let the child starve and be homeless? We all make mistakes big and small. Unless the child has completely burned all the bridges, I think that the parents can welcome the child home again but terms and conditions for that young "adult" need to be outlined for both parties.

"Why is it that when a broken-hearted child comes running back, parents welcome him or her with open arms? This is the same child who disappointed you by leaving and not pursuing the type of life (in some instances) you wanted. Eighteen year olds are not prepared to make the types of decisions 20-somethings and 30-somethings make daily; i.e., how to manage finances, balancing work and home life, etc."

Sounds to me as if you're contradicting yourself there. First you say "why welcome them back" as if that's a bad thing, then you say they aren't prepared for making those kind of decisions. To which I say, why not welcome them back? They made a mistake, and as long as the lesson appears to have sunk in, I see no reason why parents shouldn't be able to accept them back into their homes.

Fred: "I think that the parents can welcome the child home again but terms and conditions for that young "adult" need to be outlined for both parties."

Why set boundaries only after the child has failed? They should be set and adhered to throughout the child's younger years so these issues don't even arise.

driver guy

"Why is it that when a broken-hearted child comes running back, parents welcome him or her with open arms?"

For the same reason that the Prodigal Son was welcomed back.

Driver guy (7:46 a.m.) has clearly never walked in WorkingMomX's shoes. The unfortunate fact is that good parenting does not insulate you from problems of the type that she described, and ineffective parenting does not mean you will encounter them. Life is real unfair. Driver guy admits that 18 year olds are not prepared to make some of the decisions they are allowed to make, but then advocates they if they do screw up, they should be tossed to the wolves. You shouldn't be an enabler, but unless you think you are perfect yourself and or would not expect help from anyone when you screw up royally (as we all do from time to time), then its not unreasonable to provide support for your child while they right themselves from a mistake. After all, the definition of home is "when you have to go there, they have to take you in."

I remember being 18 and almost making the same mistake. I was seriously considering transfering to a local (to my hometown) univeristy to be closer to my boyfriend who was still in high school. Looking back, it wasn't just him, it was general homesickness and difficulty making new friens. I'm so glad I did not do that - I stayed at Virginia Tech for all 4 years and even went back for a second 2-year stint. But, its so hard to tell teenagers anything, since no one else can possibly understand them and they know best.

FWIW, I'm now married to the same boyfriend. But I was 31 when it happened, and there was a *long* break in between where I didn't even know if he was alive.

His brother, on the other hand, got married at 19 to the girl he had dated since 8th grade. To everyone's surprise, they are still together, in graduate school, and with a happy, well adjusted kid (born 5 years after they married).

To John L: the point I was attempting to make is that parents need to be proactive about teaching their kids certain things. A well-educated (not necessarily school educated, but otherwise educated, too) child (18, younger, or older) will know that moving in with a boyfriend or girlfriend is not a good idea, financially, emotionally, etc. (Again, not necessarily true for all, but for most.)

The latter part of your argument ties in with my initial statement - that you should not welcome them back when they fail because they chose to leave and welcoming them back shows them that you're there to clean up every time they make a mess. This clearly is where we divide - you must think that parents should rescue their children every time they fumble. I think it is important for children to mature on their own, especially if they chose to leave the home at the not-yet-ripe age of 18.

Caveat that this comment comes from someone childless, but I think parents can promote a happy medium between friendship and romance in the teenage years, and though I understand where the advice here is coming from, I wonder about going to far in either direction. My parents somewhat firmly discouraged boyfriends during high school, telling me it would distract from school and that romantic relationships would come "later." Years later, I struggle with intimacy and have long pondered the effect of not getting the relationship "practice" I needed at a key time in my personal development. No one wants a "boy/girl-crazy" teen, but inadvertently making your kids feel as if the romantic feelings they naturally have are somehow "wrong" has its own pitfalls.

"...They should be set and adhered to throughout the child's younger years so these issues don't even arise."

You are correct in this. Let me clarify my comments. Boundaries should be set in childhood but when a child is in later teen years and in transition to adulthood (18 to 55 or so) the dynamics change and boundaries should change. I do not expect my 24 yr old to act and have the responsibilities of my 15 yr old.

What I am saying here is that if a adult child (18 to 55 or so) returns to the home clear conditions and responsibilities need to be set forth and agreed by both parties.

As far as these issues not arising when a child grows up, you can set all the rules you want or as few as you want, at some point the child will act contrary to his own best interest. You will not be happy with it and the child later on may not be happy with it. It happens all the time. Maybe not with the severity of this example but it does happen. There are things I did when I was that age (18-19) which weren't in my best interest but I managed to survive.

John L -- I don't know why teenagers are more prone to making bad decisions these days. It is a frightening trend. There was drama with certain kids when I was growing up, but it seems more commonplace and extreme now. Very strange and scary.

Driver Guy -- We didn't even stop to think about whether we should pick up the pieces, we just went up and got her. She was 18, no skills, broken common sense, and she was 4 states away near her mother (who I would say is a toxic parent and who was refusing to help her out when she was literally on the street with nowhere to go). She is at school now, but she is paying for most of it and it's not easy for her. She could have had it another way. But she's made her choices and that's life.

Fred -- None of us ever looked twice at a guy named Bruce. My dad just killed that name for all of us. :)

Thanks, everyone, for the great comments!

"This clearly is where we divide - you must think that parents should rescue their children every time they fumble."

Just as I expect Jesus to forgive me.

Wow, I am really dismayed by the presentation of the topic today.

It is not a parent's job to decide what is best for their 18 and older child and try to manipulate them into "choosing" that path. People learn what lessons we need at a given time - often as many times as we need to learn them. Can this be painful for a parent to watch? Of course. Can parents do things to help adult children learn a given lesson more quickly? Sometimes, but not very often.

Ignoring/being rude to/maintaining distance from your children's dates more often than not leads to your children choosing more distance from you, the parent, rather than choosing more distance from their date.

Sometimes (often) teenagers just don't have much balance when it comes to dating. The best way to support them in gaining balance is to maintain open communication lines, even if that means talking about and/or to the individual throwing your child off balance. In other words, keeping your own sense of balance about your teenager's dating patterns is critical. Remember: most people end up okay. So will your teenager.

Karen Rayne
http://www.adolescentsexualitytoday.blogspot.com

As long as I have a roof over my head, I will always be willing to share it with my children.

It's part of the unconditional love they were granted when my wife and I created their life.

"This clearly is where we divide - you must think that parents should rescue their children every time they fumble. I think it is important for children to mature on their own, especially if they chose to leave the home at the not-yet-ripe age of 18."

Thanks for trying to read my mind; I never said parents should rescue their kids every time they made a mistake. Did you not see the part where I mentioned the lesson sinking in? I do disagree with just abandoning an 18 yo that made a mistake, as you advocate, though.

My kids are very small but I think a lot about instilling in them an ability to make good choices. My teenage years were very stressful for me because I had difficulty fitting in and making friends. As a result, I focused exclusively on academics and my mother had it pretty easy. However, this is NOT what I want for my kids. As a side note, I live in the DC suburbs where every kid seems to be in a advance placement class of some kind with zillions of after school activities. The teenage angst seems to be about getting accepted to the "right" college/university.

Lil Husky AKA Father of 4

"It's part of the unconditional love they were granted when my wife and I created their life"

Right! During the whole 2 minutes of "creating their lives". What a putz!

I was that teenager that dropped out of college, on full scholarship, and moved in with my loser boyfriend. We even moved across the country. I am now a well adjusted 31 year old with a fantastic husband (met him across the country), 16 month old daughter and master's degree. My parents did everything right - supportive but not overbearing, welcomed me home when the relationship exploded. I did not go home; I was determined to prove my choices were my own and went back to school with a lot of loans and full time job. The point...some people need to learn/do things the "hard" way. I do fear that my young daughter will have the same *independent* streak, but at least I know things can work out. Also, I believe you can only shield your children from so much heartache. Nice blog entry, thanks for writing.

John L - I lived in my teen years in south Louisiana (across the lake from New Orleans), and I would disagree that teenagers make more bad decisions these days. It may just be more visible these days, or it may just be that it's more visible to you (the generic "you", not you, John L, in specific).

I graduated from a public high school in a class of 64. Of those, three girls had already had babies and two more were pregnant (only two were married). At least four of the boys were fathers. We started senior year with 76 students; we had lost 12 during the year, mostly dropouts.

A good friend of mine was an outstanding athlete; he was drafted in the later rounds by the Phillies. He never signed/went because his girlfriend was pregnant and the term "shotgun wedding" was popular among a certain crowd back then. (He also had athletic scholarships to colleges if he'd preferred that to the pros, but those were out, too.)

There were a number of extremely bright, talented kids in the area, but it was fairly common to do something stupid and have it impact the rest of your life. Watching my own kids (one just graduated high school, two more in high school and a middle-schooler) and their friends, it doesn't seem that much different to me.

My brother married his wife when they were both 18. Her parents kicked her out, because they believed that an 18 year old high school graduate was an adult; they had no responsibility for her and she was on her own. Their suggestion to her was "join the Army"; it's what her older brothers had done. Given that she didn't want to do that, she really didn't have any options - how was she supposed to make enough money to have a place to live, food to eat, etc? My brother figured out that if he married her, his parents would take care of the two of them - and he was right. I was shocked when the marriage actually lasted 14 years.

Karen, I think you are naive. No one said anything about not keeping open communication lines. Theres a big difference between that and treating your child's girlfriend like one of your peers. I think you need some balance!

Army Brat,

I hear you; when I graduated there were three girls who had babies already in our class, so I understand what you're saying. This was out of a class of 1000 though, back in 1978, but most of my friends ended up going to college. The bad decisions I tended to notice, were made later on in college or afterward.

My cousin received a full scholarship for 4 years; instead, she devoted herself to a guy we all knew was Trouble. She got pregnant, terribly physically abused (we knew and supported her as much as we could), and four kids later was able finally to "escape" him. (I say "escape" because he still tries to get the kids even though it's been demonstrated he has abused them and still tries to alienate them from her. It's been a nightmare.)

She just finished graduating in her mid-thirties with a degree in education. She got lucky (her mother inherited some money and put it towards her education). She loves her kids but wishes we had stopped her. OTOH, it would have taken a psych exam or prison to keep her from going down that road. Some lessons are hard.

I agree with mommywarvet and Fred -- good parenting doesn't shield you and your teenager from his or her own bad decisions. You can teach and live all the good values you have, consistently and honestly, but there comes a point that it just doesn't matter. From a developmental standpoint, peers become far more important than family in early adolescence.

You can send your children to the nicest schools, with the nicest families, but if your child feels 'different' for any reason -- maybe your child is beginning to suspect he's gay, for example -- he will migrate to the group of unhappy, disaffected students in his school. And if his peer group uses drugs and drinks a lot (which happens pretty often within the disaffected groups), and you or your spouse has a family history of addiction problems, all bets are off. Your child might go off to college, party too much, nearly flunk out, get caught with a small amount of pot, and be forced to start over at a community college -- which you agree to pay for, provided all the grades are A or B, and said child stays out of trouble.

Then, AFTER your child's series of poor decisions has put him in a one-down position, he might announce that he wants to get an apartment with a friend (female, non-romantic friend -- remember, he's gay) from middle school who was kicked out of a military service academy for violations of the honor code (academic dishonesty and illegal substance possession). Of course, he can't afford it, because he still owes money out the wazooby for the attorney his grandfather provided, the court costs, and the repairs to his car (that are needed because he ignored everyone's advice and didn't change his oil for 9,000 MILES), but he's going to do it anyway.

And, oh yes, if he's gay, he won't talk to you about his relationships. At all. In fact, you won't know for a fact that he's gay until he's out of the house, one way or another. You have no way of knowing what he's doing, and of course you have no real expert advice to give; all you can do is give him the same generic advice about dating honesty, fidelity, and the danger of serious commitments at a young age that you would give any young man.

You and your younger son, who plans to double-major in football and girls and minor in his own stylish fabulousness, just cannot get over how dumb a smart person can be.

My brother's daughter has just moved in with "Mr. Wonderful." Daughter is off the payroll but brother makes sure that daughter had all the birth control needed.

She will be back in the house sooner than later.

3 girls pregnant in a high school class of 1000. There have been at least 5 girls in DD's homeroom class who have been pregnant by the 8th grade!

educmom

You really need to get a life of your own...

"3 girls pregnant in a high school class of 1000. There have been at least 5 girls in DD's homeroom class who have been pregnant by the 8th grade!"

That was exactly my point in my first post. While I didn't go to school in a major metropolitan system, my high school was for the entire county and there were a LOT of bored, sexually active teens in it, but only three girls ended up pregnant in my class.

One of the girls, in fact, was a year behind my class, but with in home tutoring she jumped ahead a class and graduated a year early with us, even though she was raising a child alone.

"brother makes sure that daughter had all the birth control
needed."

It seems so creepy when a father gets involved in his daughter's sex life. Eww!

educmom

You really need to get a life of your own...

Posted by: | July 10, 2007 08:56 AM

And you really need to take your little troll brain back to your little troll hut under your little troll bridge.

Hooo-boy, this brings back some memories. I nearly pulled something similar when I ws 19. I thought I was in love and wanted to marry this guy (we'll call him "Bruce" ;-)), so I moved in with him.

Lo and behold, things fell apart and I realized I was in love with the IDEA of being in love and engaged, but not so much with Bruce.

All the while, I knew my mom didn't like Bruce (lack of potential was her problem with him), but she kept a close mouth and pretty good distance and let me figure this mistake out for myself.

In the end, I came out ahead -- I was able to keep our tiny apartment because of my part-time job, and I continued attending college.

In looking back, the reason my mistake didn't "ruin" my life (or ability to go to, and graduate from, college) was because my mom instilled in me at a very young age how important education was. This, in turn, made my want for an education to supercede any other life event. So, when Bruce and I were together, college was always a priority. When we split up, college was still a priority. When I've made other decisions in my life (good or bad), getting that education and a strong work ethic has always pulled me through.

The end point to my semi-shaggy dog story is if parents pound core values into their children's heads (whatever they may be), I think that will direct them far more than whatever other little 'side projects' life has to offer.

John L, only three girls that you KNOW of.

"That was exactly my point in my first post. While I didn't go to school in a major metropolitan system, my high school was for the entire county and there were a LOT of bored, sexually active teens in it, but only three girls ended up pregnant in my class."

You don't know how many ended up pregnant but aborted.

I graduated high school in 1974 and there were just as many, if not more, stupid decisions by teens then as there are now. I came from a lower middle class blue collar area. There was still a feeling that you should get married if you got pregnant. Families did not encourage their daughters to get abortions so as not to interfere with college, which wasn't in the future for 80% anyway. i find that some today's girls get abortions because the Parents don't want the pregnancy to interfere with the girls' futures. These parents have worked too hard on their master plans for their children to let a child get in the way.

It seems so creepy when a father gets involved in his daughter's sex life. Eww!

Posted by: | July 10, 2007 09:00 AM

He never asks, just make sure that she has the scripts paid for.

Would you rather have an unwanted child?

I graduated in a class of about 550, and we had several girls who had babies. I felt sorry for them -- even then, I realized that they had done something that severely limited their life choices.

My parents never discussed sex with us. In the 1970's, sex education in public schools was actually a lot more informative and comprehensive than it is today, so I guess they figured I learned what I needed to know.

The joke for my sister and me is the little speech from Dad: If you're out with a boy and you start doing things that feel good, it's time to stop and come home. When I started college, he trotted out the milk/cow analogy as well.

"brother makes sure that daughter had all the birth control
needed."

It seems so creepy when a father gets involved in his daughter's sex life. Eww!

------

It's a health issue. Grow up.

"My parents never discussed sex with us. In the 1970's, sex education in public schools was actually a lot more informative and comprehensive than it is today, so I guess they figured I learned what I needed to know."

I guess it depends on where you went to school. There was never any sex ed in school for me.

My daughters have received extensive sex ed in school, including information about homosexuality. There are openly gay students who don't seem to have the problems you referred to.

John L - we're probably from somewhat "different worlds". I graduated from high school in 77, and was one of only about 10 of us who graduated that year who went on to a four year college.

In that part of Louisiana at that time, the culture was not slanted toward education. If you didn't go in the service, you went to work for an oil company, usually on an offshore rig. You usually started as a roughneck; if you had skills you became a welder or electrician or whatever. With the overtime and other pay, you usually made more than your high school teachers did by three months after graduation. So it seemed to make sense to some of those folks to drop out of school, or pass up the college scholarships, or not to wait to have kids or get married, or whatever.

Now, there were some success stories. There's the guy who went into the Marines, became a pilot, and flies for a major airline while also being a highly-decorated Colonel in the Marine Reserves. There's the AF Academy grad who recently retired as a Brigadier General. One guy is a very successful OB/GYN.

Then there's the woman who had her first abortion the day after graduation. She went to a CSS as an undergrad (had her second and third abortions there), then got her PhD from Yale. Started a software company in Silicon Valley. Did very well in the dot-com boom. Had three kids. (At least two fathers; I understand there's some question as to whether it's two or three.)

And two years ago, moved back to the same little town in Louisiana because she wanted her kids to grow up in the same environment as their mother.

I think a big issue is also pressure on these young adults. Europeans notoriously have a break year in between University and high school - I fully believe American kids should do the same. What these kids most likely want is a break and if there's a boyfriend/girlfriend involved it kind of gives an excuse to do just that. the kids in Workingmomx's blog appear to be intelligent kids who got accepted into good schools. so something else is obviosuly going on with them.

I did the gap year thing and it was the best thing I have ever done. I didn't travel as much as I wanted (I should've saved more money), but I worked a couple different jobs, kept house for my family (this was a condition of not going to school right away. I did the grocery shopping, most cleaning, laundry,etc)

By the time summer rolled around I was just waiting to start school. I transferred to my dream school 1 year later on an almost full scholarship.

I plan to support my daughter fully if she wants a gap year. It can be a great transistion into the "real" world.

I don't know if the blogger could have prevented the situation, but I do think having a back-up plan and a few alternatives would have helped in this situation. Had the daughter wanted to move in with the boyfriend and stay local, maybe they should have had a local college/university on the list of places she applied to. There's the possibility they could have come up with some kind of deal - she gets gas money as long as she agrees to attend local college/university.

My situation was more the reverse (without the boyfriend) and similar for my sister. We both had out of state universities that were our first choices and that we preferred to attend. However, Mom & Dad couldn't afford the room and board for these institutions and therefore refused to cosign on any loans we might have needed to go to these colleges because it was important to them that we get our education without going into debt. In my case I did not get into my first choice so my decision was made for me, and my sister struggled for a while with accepting our parents' decision. They knew what they wanted, and they made sure we only had the means to do that. I would say we are both happier as a result since we both met our husbands in the college years.

I also know someone who commuted from home 1.5-2 hours each way to go to the same university I went (20-40 mins for me from home). So it is doable if you can get your kid a car, better that they do that AND get to stay with the boyfriend then give up completely.

"In the end, I came out ahead -- I was able to keep our tiny apartment because of my part-time job, and I continued attending college."

Were your parents paying for your education? We have told our daughters that we will provide education while they are our dependent children. Once they decide that they are adults who will live with or marry someone, then they will be treated as adults with full adult responsibilites and will no longer be supported by us. No, that doesn't mean we are overly controlling and monitor every move they make and make every decision for them. We would treat them as fully independent adult children - part of our family who we would help out in a pinch, but full support would be over. If it didn't work out, they could move back home, but would have to work and pay for school themselves.

Lurker,

I suppose it does depend on where you went to school. In Baltimore County in the 70's, it was taught very well. Of course, there were still only two sexually transmitted diseases (still known as VD -- and doesn't THAT date me right there), and nobody discussed homosexuality.

My son didn't have major problems in high school; middle school was much harder. He didn't understand what was going on, and he didn't discuss it with us. His high school guidance counselor was great, apparently. He came out to his friends in his junior year, and most of them are still his friends.

I think he had problems in college (small college in the Southern Baptist belt), although he has never discussed them, and I think that's at least part of the reason he allowed himself to nearly flunk out.

-- "In the end, I came out ahead -- I was able to keep our tiny apartment because of my part-time job, and I continued attending college."

Were your parents paying for your education? --

In short, nope. They let me live at home rent-free pre-Bruce, but once I moved out, I was on my own for bills (and I was already paying tuition on my own).

Which was fine by me -- I realized I was out of the house and I didn't expect them to pay for anything.

Funny, I did go to school in Balto county - graduated 1974. No sex ed in school, at least no formal education :). Maybe it was later in the 70's or only at certain schools.

"Now, there were some success stories."

Be careful, you sound like a true elitist snob. It's possible to become a successful electrician, welder, or SAHM.

All I wanted was to move out of the house far away, so there was nothing that was going to stop me from going to college since I knew I couldn't afford to live on my own.

My sister had moved back after college and couldn't afford to live on her own, what made me think *i* could do it? It amazed me at college, even, when girls said things like: oh, I have a boyfriend back home. It was just weird-i thought-youre young, live your life here-why worry about some guy who's not here. Invariably, said boyfriend had a girlfriend at college too.

I know someone who gave up a scholarship to an ivy league to attend a univ close to home and girlfriend. He knew after a few weeks that he made the wrong decision. That lesson stayed with him.

I definitely want my kids to be independent, but want them to know that I will always be here for them whenever they would need me. That might mean taking them in, but might not-but whose to say I wouldn't charge them rent? They'd also be required to do what they had been required to do before. No one would be waiting on them.

"Why is it that when a broken-hearted child comes running back, parents welcome him or her with open arms? This is the same child who disappointed you by leaving and not pursuing the type of life (in some instances) you wanted."

Posted by: driver guy | July 10, 2007 07:46 AM

Our children are not there to "pursu[e] the type of life [we] wanted." But they are our own flesh and blood. So when they take a wrong path or make a mistake or mess up, we take them back "with open arms" and encourage them to try something else. It is our duty to do this, and we take our duty seriously. And our children -- O fortunati! O terque beati! -- are lucky and thrice blessed to have parents like us.

Myron Magnet's book, "The Dream and the Nightmare: The Sixties' Legacy to the Underclass," elucidates the difference between the "hippie" children of the 1960's, who had parents with a sense of duty, and the children of what he calls the "underclass," who were likely to have dope addicts for mothers and absentees for fathers, neither with any sense of duty. The "hippies" could experiment with sexual freedom and dope, get themselves arrested demonstrating against LBJ's Vit-nam war, drop out of school to attend the "free university" of the streets -- but in the end, when they saw where their stupid decisions had led them, they were able to turn to their parents to bail them out and get them started on the path to responsible careers in Corporate America. The children of Myron Magnet's "underclass" thought that they, too, could experiment the same way the "hippies" did. But with no responsible, loving parents to bail them out, no one to "take them back "with open arms," they went down, down, down in a ring of fire, a ring of sex, drugs and crime -- and passed that legacy down to their own children.

Would "driver guy" really want his children to suffer the full consequences of their stupid, youthful mistakes? Would he want them to become part of Myron Magnet's "underclass"?

"Be careful, you sound like a true elitist snob. It's possible to become a successful electrician, welder, or SAHM."

Good point, and I certainly don't want to put down the skilled tradespeople (or SAHMs for that matter). My best friend from high school never went to a day of college, and is one of the most successful plumbers on the north shore of Lake Ponchartrain - runs a large business, has a bunch of people working for him, does what he wants, etc. And after Katrina, he's pretty much set (he lives far enough away from the lake that his house wasn't wiped out, and he told me recently that he could keep every person in his company working every day for the next two years without a problem).

Not everybody is cut out for college and it will likely always be possible to make a decent living as a skilled craftsman, but the level of skill required will continue to rise with technology.

Matt in Aberdeen

"Would "driver guy" really want his children to suffer the full consequences of their stupid, youthful mistakes? Would he want them to become part of Myron Magnet's "underclass"?"

That seems to be driver guy's whole point...

I loved the Bruce approach. Funnily enought I had a very good guy friend in college who approached my misguided relationships the way Cato did Carthage: he ended every conversation, no matter the topic, with "Bruce must be dumped." He was, of course, right.

I know someone with a daughter who left home to move in with boyfriend when she turned 18. Since she has a February birthday, she left while still in high school. Didn't finish, but is very bright and should be able to get GED as soon as she decides to do it.

It's been a year now with no indication that she will be coming home or going back to school. Her mother has decided to use the college money to build an addition on her house.

One of the things I don't think has been mentioned yet is having open lines of communication with the significant other of your child.

There is a world of difference between rescuing your kid every time he fumbles, and responding to a call from one of your kids when she has gotten herself into a relationship she can't safely and/or efficiently exit. It takes a great deal of maturity to admit to your parents, even tacitly, that they were right and you were wrong about a romantic partner. If one of my children (or frankly, any of their close friends) gets to the point where she is able to swallow her pride and make that call to say, "Mom, Please come get me," I will reward that maturity with a swift response.

" . . . he also used to refer to every guy my sisters and I dated, no matter how seriously or for how long, as "Bruce.
- - - - - - - -

Too funny, my dad used to call all of my boyfriends "Jabo." Never knew where he got that from. First one he chose to call by name, from the start, is my husband.

I agree with "your advice and motivates are questionable"

Kids have to take their own paths.

This seems more like parents agonizing because their own goals for their children are being derailed by those very children.

If a relationship is more important to a child than college that tells you something about how they're going to approach college.

Certainly you don't want to make your child feel that they are worthless without a relationship, but why not respect their feelings?

Trying to derail high school relationships is just as likely to push them underground. Then you miss the opportunity to know who your kids are seeing and to have that all important talk about family planning and responsible sexual behavior.

I say, back off. A lost college scholarship is not the end of the world. It is your child's life, not yours.

"Funnily enought I had a very good guy friend in college who approached my misguided relationships the way Cato did Carthage: he ended every conversation, no matter the topic, with "Bruce must be dumped." He was, of course, right."

Ha! Reminds me of Dickens' "Barkis is willin'".

Her mother has decided to use the college money to build an addition on her house.
- - - - -

Good for her!

Karen Rayne
http://www.adolescentsexualitytoday.blogspot.com

Posted by: Karen Rayne | July 10, 2007 08:17 AM

Just what this blog needs, another person whose sole purpose is to use this blog to drive traffic to her own blog.

Leslie, please consider deleting blatantly commercial posts.

So what's wrong with a good old fashioned whipping?

Obviously Rose G doesn't have kids.

Her mother has decided to use the college money to build an addition on her house.
- - - - -

Good for her!

Posted by: AFBrat | July 10, 2007 09:48 AM

Like the "Friends" episode where Monica and Chandler learn that her parents have spent the money they'd saved up for her wedding on themselves instead, because they'd figured Monica would never get married.

Here, here, RoseG. People actually get angry with me when I say if my kids don't want to go to college, that's fine with me. They'll figure out how tough it is without an education (heck, it's tough *with* an education).

I saw people in college who did nothing but party and flunk out. I thought- I'm not about to throw away this opportunity.

But I've learned that there is more than one way to do things, that if you're not mature enough or motivated enough you're not going to get much out of college, that I don't want to waste my money if my did doesn't want to go.

Educmom-tough stuff. I learned as an adult that my mom had helped my sister's friend get an abortion during college yrs since friend's mom was a little off. I was shocked, actually. I never would go to my parents ever with any issue because I figured what was the point. I'm sure you wish your DS would speak with you about all this. I hope we can keep the lines of communication open when my kids get older. Having not had that as a kid, I hope we can do it.

We had sex ed in middle school and high school. My mom even said something to me about it once as in she was glad she didn't have to discuss it cause she knew we were getting it in school.

WorkingMomX,

Thanks for a great, practical guest blog. I can only imagine how challenging it must have been for you, as the stepmom, to deal with this drama -- and show a united front -- with your spouse.

A Word of Advice - Your brother is a wise, wise man. Be patient but, whenever possible, smart parents encourage their kids to limit the severity and duration of the consequences of their foolishness.

I have two kids who've managed to do just what they want to do despite my best efforts! My take is that you can either agonize about it or you can accept it. Acceptance is a whole lot less stressful and more likely to maintain a good relationship with your child -- and that's all that really matters in the end.

Another option, knowing these romances are likely to self-destruct, is to encourage your child to "defer admission."

It's my understanding that after being admitted to many colleges you can write a letter and request your admission be deferred for a year. Don't know if that will maintain financial aid or not, but it would keep your hand in the door.

RoseG, are you advocating that a parent stand by while a child self-destructs without trying to help out in any way? I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm curious.

Also, we did think about deferrment and encouraged her to look into it, but she was delusional about what her life would be like with her boyfriend once they lived together.

"It's my understanding that after being admitted to many colleges you can write a letter and request your admission be deferred for a year. Don't know if that will maintain financial aid or not, but it would keep your hand in the door."

They won't. Your admission can be deferred, but financial aid, grants, scholarships are granted with respect to a particular academic year.

The wisdom that comes from experience cannot be denied, but is not infallible. My parents did a great job guiding me (kid 1 of 4) to put education and career first, then "boys" second. It worked-- a few years after I earned my degree and established a great career I met the guy who is now my husband. They tried to do the same with my sister (kid 3 of 4), but instead she got married at 19 and basically divorced herself from my parents rather than deal with their constant disapproval. Where I think my parents messed up is that they assumed my sister ruined her life-- my mom thinks my sister is unhappily married to a man she merely tolerates and is now stuck with, lonely, and destined to be "nothing but a SAHM for the rest of her life". In reality, my sister just finished her BA, loves her husband, and looks forward to raising her future children (and yes, being "just" a SAHM) someday. Sure she hardly talks to our mother, but I can't blame her-- my mother is constantly fishing for signs that my sister made a mistake so she can point them out and try to talk her out of the marriage. I wouldn't want to deal with that either.

Parents should help their children make good choices, of course. But sometimes a teen or young adult will choose a path their parents would not have chosen for them. When this happens, parents should recognize that this new path might be okay too, even if it isn't the path they would have chosen for their kids. There are many ways to live a good, happy life.

AL: I also was one of the kids that needed to learn the hard way.
I didn't drop out of school but I did move in with my boyfriend at 18, and then went through a spectacular split-up with lots of drama.
I wouldn't trade any of it. I did lots of stupid things, but they were _my_ stupid things. I don't recall my parents offering to let me move home but I would not have done so in any case. The feeling that I was finally alive, that I was living my own life on my own terms, was greater than anything.
To this day I thank my parents for what they did--they listened to me when I needed to talk, stayed out of my way, treated Crazy BF with admirable politeness and treated me like the adult I almost was. It was the year I grew up.

I think that many people consider 18 year olds adults, and make the mistake of expecting reasonable, adult behavior from the. Eighteen year olds may be adults legally, but many of them are not there yet, emotionally or financially. And they make dumb choices. Sometimes really dumb choices. And then we act surprised and disappointed, when if we were really smart, we would be prepared.

Which does not mean that we need to shield them from every dumb mistake they make. But it does mean that we can mitigate the consequences while still allowing them to learn life's lessons. Letting an 18 year old come back home to live is not a bad idea as long as you also make them get a job and help with the bills. Turning them out on the streets because they made some mistakes seems heartless to me. I also agree with the person who talked about the wisdom of some kids taking a break between high school and college. Not all kids are ready to go to college right after high school. If you feel that your child is not ready, why not let them live at home for a year and work? This may just do the trick and motivate them to go to school so that they won't be stuck in that rut indefinitely. Or if they are not ready to go away, I think a couple of years at the local community college may also be a good idea. Not all kids are ready to move away from home right away, and need a little time to mature.

In any case, I think these decisions have to be tailored to the individual involved. While one kid may be ready to charge full steam ahead, another may not, and waiting a year or two to let them mature fully may be the best decision you can make. Sometimes, as parents, we compete through our children and feel like failures compared to the Jones' if our children don't do as well as theirs. Which is stupid. As an adult, I know all sorts of people who did not go to college right away, or went, dropped out, and went back later. And I know quite a few who did not finish and still ended up doing well in life. And all these folks are fine, responsible, self-sustaining adults today. Sure, we make stupid mistakes when we are young adults. It's part of the maturing process. But chances are we will get through these bumps and turn out okay. A few mistakes, especially when we are young, are not necessarily such a bad thing in the long run.

Oops-i meant, if my DS doesn't want to go...

Anybody remember the one skit from "Whose Line Is It Anyway" where the tall guy pretends to be the bald guy's 15 year old daughter?

"You don't understand! I love him! You just don't want me to be happy! You never do! I wish you would DIE!"

*bursts into tears, runs off to bathroom and slams the door*

Oh, wait, excuse me, that was my little sister at 15.

I guess we all do the best we can and then we have to remember this:

Our teenagers will likely display the SAME behaviors they did between 2-4 yo. But bigger, with higher stakes.

The Wonder Years, indeed.

It is rude to insist that if a couple is not engaged, a significant other should be called by a generic name and the parents should not attempt to get close to them or be their friend.

Allowing interaction between a parent and the person your child cares about opens up communication in a way that is helpful to your young adult. In many ways a romantic relationship is at its core a friendship, and many last beyond the scope of the romantic relationship. It is immature to pretend that feelings don't exist, and I would find it very hurtful if my parents did the same to me.

I had a "boyfriend" for 5 years, who my mother referred to as "my friend" for the first couple years, which wasn't so terrible. But when it was clear that we were heading for eventual marriage (not everyone can be officially "engaged" the second they "should" be), that kind of reference would have been unwelcome, and inappropriate behavior for a parent. My husband appreciates the way my parents communicated with him, asked him questions, knew his background/future plans (Was every "Bruce" destined for nothing?), etc. Talking to him helped them trust him, and they knew that whether we stayed together or not, he was a good person to be around. If they ignored poor "Bruce," maybe they wouldn't have raelized that he was a self-mutilating, drug-addicted puppy-killer. How fabulous.

The idea that young adults should create and keep a network of friends through relationships is a big fat duh. No one wants to be "that guy" or "that girl" who only hangs out with the significant other, and when that ends, they end up alone and bored. Group activities are vital to the social interaction your child needs to thrive. But intimate relationships are also important to socialization and development, and hindering them by pretending they don't exist will be detrimental definitely to your relationship with your child, and probably to your child's ability to maintain such a relationship.

" . . . he also used to refer to every guy my sisters and I dated, no matter how seriously or for how long, as "Bruce.")"

That's simply rude and disrespectful behavior.

If you want your teenage kids to show respect for others, you need to model that respect by treating them and their friends as worthwhile individuals. This includes knowing and using their friends' names both to their faces and behind their backs. Otherwise, they pick up on the fact that you're mocking them and their feelings, and that's hardly a good foundation for healthy family interaction.

You can hardly blame teenagers for being resentful when their parents play demeaning little games like this.

Atlmom,

I do wish he would have talked with me much sooner. He does talk a little now, but only about the present, never the past. He said I get this frozen grin on my face when he talks about the person he's dating -- and I said it beats a yucky face; unconditional love is always there, but acceptance takes a little time. After all, he's known he was gay for years; I haven't.

I have this lurking fear that he did some realy dumb things before I knew what was going on, and, having no clue at all, I was not even able to give him any advice. Not that he would listen or anything -- he's very bright, and very arrogant, and I think he would have disregarded any advice I gave him anyway.

Lurker,
I had sex ed as part of the junior high home ec/shop curriculum in 1975-1977. Now that I think about it, maybe it was some sort of experiment or pilot program. Our school was not the best, and maybe they used it to test all sorts of social theories. For example, in seventh grade, all the boys took wood shop, metal shop and drafting; all the girls took sewing, cooking, and home arts. In eighth grade, shop and home ec were combined and co-ed. Everyone in the entire grade took wood shop, cooking, metal shop, sewing, drafting, and health.

I don't remember if the sex ed was that year or the next (junior high went through ninth grade), but I do remember the chart we had with all the birth-control methods and their effectiveness, and the filmstrip showing gestational development.

Another blog topic completely exhausted in a couple of hours...

"Atlmom,

I do wish he would have talked with me much sooner. He does talk a little now, but only about the present, never the past. He said I get this frozen grin on my face when he talks about the person he's dating -- and I said it beats a yucky face; unconditional love is always there, but acceptance takes a little time. After all, he's known he was gay for years; I haven't."

Educmom,

A good friend of mine had this happen with his father.

I pointed out that it would probably take his father the same number of years to accept his child as gay, as it took HIM (the child) to get around to telling him.

So...if he knew for 11 years, he should expect 11 years before his dad came to terms. Less if he was lucky.

He was lucky.

Another blog topic completely exhausted in a couple of hours...

Posted by: | July 10, 2007 10:40 AM

With your keen insight, yea, it could be.

There is lots more to be intelligently commented on here!

"There are almost no words to describe the helpless feeling of standing by and watching your of-age or soon to be of-age child make choices that are not, to put it mildly, in his or her best interests."

I do have to wonder whose interests are being served here.

Is it possible that the scholarship to the prestigious school is what YOU want, not what your child wants?

Parents nowadays seems to be pushing, pushing all the time to get their kids ahead of everyone else's kids -- all geared to getting them into the best colleges that good grades and big money can provide.

Yet it's not clear that these choices are the kids' choices; often, they seem to be choices pursued for the sake of demanding parents.

Perhaps a college student coming home because s/he doesn't want to be away from her/his lover is another way of saying, "I don't like it at this school. I'm not comfortable here. I feel ("gasp!") out of my element."

There's a lot to be said for the system in the UK, where it's common for students to take a "gap year" after high school to get some experience, feel out different kinds of careers, get a sense of how they want to spend their lives.

Right now, in this country, it seems like it's the parents who are deciding how their children's lives should play out. Maybe parents feel they're entitled to dictate since they've got such a big financial investment in their kids. But ultimately, it's the kid's life. You've done your part. Now get out of their way!

Fred

"There is lots more to be intelligently commented on here!"

What's the hold up? Bring it on!

I do wish he would have talked with me much sooner. He does talk a little now, but only about the present, never the past. He said I get this frozen grin on my face when he talks about the person he's dating -- and I said it beats a yucky face; unconditional love is always there, but acceptance takes a little time. After all, he's known he was gay for years; I haven't."

Educmom,

I am so horrified by your reaction. Does it matter that he's gay? You've known your SON his whole like and that's all that should matter.

"It beats a yucky face"????? You can't see my face right now, but it is about the "yuckiest" it can get - in reaction to the type of person you are.

Gee, I wonder why he didn't tell you sooner?? - because the only thing you can muster is a frozen grin and then telling him, "Well, at least I'm not puking over it"

What is wrong with people? Who care what gender your child is attracted to? Shouldn't it be about the type of person he is??

Question: what if you found out your son was quite the player and straight. He'd slept with tons of girls, never called them back, etc....Would you still have to plaster a frozen smile on your face? Or would you laugh it off as college boy hijinx?

Fred

"There is lots more to be intelligently commented on here!"

What's the hold up? Bring it on!

Posted by: | July 10, 2007 10:48 AM

We're waiting on you.

WorkingMomX:
I really liked your advice about friends--both to encourage group gatherings, and to mention that friends can be a support network for a kid who can't or won't be supported by parents.
I would add that parents who get to know their kids' friends can help the friends, too, sometimes in ways that aren't even visible at the time. My childhood best girlfriend told me recently how much she valued her times at my house, with my parents. Unknown to any of us at the time, her parents were having awful fights leading up to their divorce, and my parents showed my friend a safer and more stable family environment.

My advice as a 24 year old? Don't let teenagers seriously date in high school. Group dates are great, but I saw too many friends make stupid decisions because of their HS boyfriends and girlfriends. One girl in my class actually tried to talk her boyfriend out of taking a fantastic scholarship to Princeton because he would be living 1000 miles away. Thankfully, he ignored her and happily graduated from Princeton a few years ago, but this is hardly an isolated incident.

Also, seniors in high school need to realize that 99% of high school romantic relationships end the first semester of college. Countless friends went home for Thanksgiving only to dump their significant others in favor of new college classmates.

One of the best parts of college life is meeting new people, and that is where I met my fiance and we could not be happier together.

What is wrong with people? Who care what gender your child is attracted to? Shouldn't it be about the type of person he is??

Sad to say, religious right-winger Alan Keyes completely disowned his lesbian daughter. Even Dick and Lynne Cheney have more compassion.

Fred

"There is lots more to be intelligently commented on here!"

What's the hold up? Bring it on!"

I have already had my say. Maybe other have not had the opportunity to look at the "paper" yet today. And I am still looking for the quote of the day.

Believe it or not, I do not feel compelled to post a rebuttal to every statement that I disagree with or have the last words.

Even Dick and Lynne Cheney have more compassion.

Or maybe they recognize a good prop.

Even Dick and Lynne Cheney have more compassion.

Or maybe they recognize a good prop.

Posted by: | July 10, 2007 10:56 AM

You think it would be preferable for them to emulate Alan Keyes by disowning their own lesbian daughter? I think not.

You think it would be preferable for them to emulate Alan Keyes by disowning their own lesbian daughter? I think not.

Posted by: | July 10, 2007 11:00 AM

I'm simply saying that none of us know how they really feel about their daughter. We only know that they haven't publically disavowed her.

"For example, in seventh grade, all the boys took wood shop, metal shop and drafting; all the girls took sewing, cooking, and home arts. In eighth grade, shop and home ec were combined and co-ed."

What a difference a few years makes. When I was in grades 7-9, shop and home ec were separated by gender. In high school, you could take anything, but boys who took sewing and cooking and girls who took shop were teased mercilessly. And no public sex ed for either beyond girls learning about the menstrual cycle. I don't know what the boys were taught.

Question: what if you found out your son was quite the player and straight. He'd slept with tons of girls, never called them back, etc....Would you still have to plaster a frozen smile on your face? Or would you laugh it off as college boy hijinx?

Posted by: | July 10, 2007 10:49 AM

No. I'd ream him out. Using women as sex objects is morally reprehensible, and there would NEVER EVER EVER be ANY acceptance of that disgusting, despicable, UNACCEPTABLE behavior from me. EVER!!!!!

I certainly hope your spawn (is that what they call troll offspring??) never, ever come to you and say that they're not exactly who you thought they were, and that the person they are is at odds with what goes on in society in general, and that the variation forces you to actually think about your spawn's sex life (which, as a parent, you would prefer not to do, no matter if it was conventional or not), and puts you in a position in which you have to alter your expectations, your anticipated life scripts for your troll spawn, and you get SLAMMED by some anonymous NOBODY because you don't come to complete acceptance on that NOBODY's timetable.

You are vile. Go away!!

"I pointed out that it would probably take his father the same number of years to accept his child as gay, as it took HIM (the child) to get around to telling him."

I thought we were at least 30 years past this sort of thing. educmom's son knew exactly how his mom would react to this news and, sadly, he was correct. How very, very sad.

"My advice as a 24 year old? Don't let teenagers seriously date in high school."

I think that's bad advice, especially for older teenagers. Their romantic relationships tend to be really passionate, and you can't control how people feel about each other. Romeo and Juliet are archetypes for a good reason.

Teenagers will date and fall in love. That is a fact of life we just have to accept. It is possible to treat them respectfully without indulging them in ridiculous ways.

pittypat and the other childless know-it-all posters have now arrived to chastise WorkingMomX and anyone else who has raised children. Bring on the wisdom, you who have neither been there nor done that.

I think it's only natural for an 18-20 year old "adult" with newly-gained independence to make poor decisions, especially with respect to education. After all, a significant other makes you feel special and wanted, whereas at school, you are a number and you are judged harshly.

When I was in college, I certainly did not appreciate the opportunity that I had there. My grades were lousy, I did not apply myself, I drank and smoked and chased girls. It got to the point where I wanted to drop out and take some time off until I could appreciate college.

Thankfully, I had the good sense not to do such a drastic thing. What pulled me through was my job. I worked as a waiter in a restaurant, and while I was able to make what for a 20 year old was terrific money, I saw first hand what happens when 20 becomes 30, and 30 becomes 40.

I saw women getting pregnant and having babies with their deadbeat boyfriends. I middle-aged men who wasted their lives away, alone and unhappy (yes I'm aware that singles can be happy. These men were alone and definitely not happy.).

So I sucked it up. I stayed in school. My life turned out pretty well. I have no idea where I would be right now had I dropped out, but my guess is I'd probably have turned out ok in spite of myself.

Educmom-dont worry about people attacking you.

I took what you said to mean that you are thrilled that now your child is talking to you and wanting a relationship and wanting to be honest with you. I don't know how anyone could have interpreted it any other way.

Lurker: "What a difference a few years makes. When I was in grades 7-9, shop and home ec were separated by gender. In high school, you could take anything, but boys who took sewing and cooking and girls who took shop were teased mercilessly. And no public sex ed for either beyond girls learning about the menstrual cycle. I don't know what the boys were taught."

Ah, the joys of going to military dependent schools. Sex Ed was taught in 7th grade and was mandatory - no opting out for parents. We didn't have shop, but both boys and girls took fine art and home ec. The home ec classes were separated by gender, and we noticed that the boys' classes did way more cooking and minimal sewing, while the girls' classes did cooking, sewing, family budgeting, etc. ("Budgeting" on a military installation includes lessons in "the penalty for your military parent if you bounce a check in the PX is as follows".)

Typically, the more you try to exert wisdom on a teenager (aka don't give up your scholarship for your boyfriend/girlfriend) the more they resist. They seem to know everything. I remember how "much I knew" back then - I am THANKFUL to this day that I didn't get pregnant by a boyfriend who turned out to be a total loser; but I couldn't see it at the time. How differently my life would have turned out....

I went to the wedding of my 20 year old nephew a couple weeks ago - hard to appreciate the vows after observing their immaturity and knowing in the back of your mind.. this is not going to work out...Why getting married so young - he was resisting his mom - rebellious behavior.

People have to live and learn.. unfortunately.

"I pointed out that it would probably take his father the same number of years to accept his child as gay, as it took HIM (the child) to get around to telling him."

I thought we were at least 30 years past this sort of thing. educmom's son knew exactly how his mom would react to this news and, sadly, he was correct. How very, very sad.

Posted by: | July 10, 2007 11:05 AM

Please. I bet Educmom would have had a similar reaction if her son had come to her and said, "I got (name) pregnant."

When the life-script goes veering off into the unexpected and peoples' hopes, dreams and illusions are in tatters, it's only polite to give them some time to pull themselves together.

So, Educmom, did you contact PFLAG? Did you get some comfort from other parents? All of this will get easier with time and sunshine. So to speak.

I am so horrified by your reaction. Does it matter that he's gay? You've known your SON his whole like and that's all that should matter.

"It beats a yucky face"????? You can't see my face right now, but it is about the "yuckiest" it can get - in reaction to the type of person you are.

Gee, I wonder why he didn't tell you sooner?? - because the only thing you can muster is a frozen grin and then telling him, "Well, at least I'm not puking over it"

What is wrong with people? Who care what gender your child is attracted to? Shouldn't it be about the type of person he is??

Question: what if you found out your son was quite the player and straight. He'd slept with tons of girls, never called them back, etc....Would you still have to plaster a frozen smile on your face? Or would you laugh it off as college boy hijinx?

Posted by: | July 10, 2007 10:49 AM

*claps* *claps* *claps*

What a non-issue. My high-school friends who were gay came of age when there was everything to lose and no one knew it yet. I lost 2 of them to AIDS. One wasn't comfortable telling his parents until he came home to their house to die. Then he was gone.

"pittypat and the other childless know-it-all posters have now arrived to chastise WorkingMomX and anyone else who has raised children. Bring on the wisdom, you who have neither been there nor done that.

Posted by: | July 10, 2007 11:07 AM"

Well, it seems fair since all you married and child-hampered folks on the blog yesterday were advising singles on what they really want and how they should go about getting it.

You're right. I've never been a parent. But I sure have been a child, and, let me tell you, living up to parents' assumptions about who you will be and what you'll believe (much less their expectations about what you'll become) leaves some pretty big scars.

So, I do know something about what happens when you try to live your kids' lives for them. I'm suggesting that you avoid making that mistake.

"What is wrong with people? Who care what gender your child is attracted to? Shouldn't it be about the type of person he is??"

The point is that no matter what the topic,IT IS ALL ABOUT THE VERY NEEDY FOR ATTENTION EDUCMOM.

And there is a HUGE difference between needing some time to accept that your child is gay, and disowning a gay child.

I simply cannot understand why on earth a parent would disown a gay child! Don't they LOVE the child UNCONDITIONALLY???

Some of us just need a little time to get our minds around the concept. I have talked to my son about this, and he really does understand. He knows I love him, I would NEVER disown him, and I will eventually be OK with it. I respect him enough to not make any effort to talk him out of his sexual orientation, and to not minimize it as a phase. I'm moving in the right direction -- I want to completely accept it, so I know eventually I will -- and he respects me enough to let me get there at my own pace.

educmom,

My friend found out that her son was gay, and it took years for her to be comfortable with it. She explained it as a loss of dreams - no wedding, no biological grandchildren - yes, it's his life and she wants him to find his own way and his own happiness, but we all have dreams for our children and may experience a sense of loss when they don't come true. Also, being gay carries a greater risk of AIDS and being beat up by gay-bashers (it happened to her son).

No matter how liberal individuals may be, in this country there is still a strong bias against gays. DC is not the rest of the country. It is somewhat sad to realize that your child could be subject to ridicule or worse for the simple act of holding hands with their life partner. straight people do not have to worry about that. Even if you are completey accepting as a parent, you don't live in a bubble. My friend's father was one of the biggest homophobe's ever born. She felt like she was constantly walking on eggshells around her family. Should she tell and risk alienating her father or hearing nasty things about her son? Should she not mention it and hope her son would forgive her? He was gay and proud and wanted everyone to know. She only saw her father a few times a year so it wasn't much of an issue most of the time. How do you handle the inevitable questions - single - does he have a girlfriend, is it serious, is he getting married?

So educmom, I do understand that finding out your child is gay puts you in a situation that most people don't ever find themselves in. They can only imagine how they would react, they don't really know.

Educmom,

Whether a troll wrote that or not, I completely agree with him/her.

I think your reaction to your son is vile.

Being gay is the least of my worries when thinking of what my child could be!

pittypat, I find myself in a strange position today, disagreeing with you. I recognize that not every kid will go or should go to college, but I also know that there's a much greater chance of succcess on almost every level for a child who gets a degree. Given my stepdaughter's past, raised by an abusive mom who's been married many times, her best bet was to be able to support herself as soon as possible, and my husband and I are willing to work with her so she can do this. Are we enabling her by funding a small portion of her tuition/room and board? Maybe, but ask yourself whether it's in our best interests to do this. We don't want an adult kid showing up on our doorstep every 6 months looking for a handout. Boy, would that mean we didn't do our job as parents.

I fully expect that my other children will attend college. Maybe this is elitist, but it is what it is. It's how my parents raised my sisters and me, and we all turned out okay (even with the "Bruce" thing).

Atlmom,
You're right. Thanks!

Anon at 11:13:
No, not yet anyway. I know it's a good resource, and I do plan to tap into it. And you're right -- I would have reacted exactly the same way if he had announced he had gotten someone pregnant.

Isn't raising a child kind of like sport fishing in reverse? You keep them really close at first then gradually let out the line so they get a bit farther away and feistier but are still on the line. Eventually you get to see them up close for the beautiful creature they are and cut the line and let them swim away (and if you throw some chum off the back of the boat they will continue to follow you).

I actually understand Educmom. She is trying. That is all you can ask of anyone. I think my brother might be gay, although I am not at all sure. He has never mentioned it, and considering the fact that his father is as homophobic as they come, I imagine that if he is gay, it would be incredibly difficult for him to admit it to the family. My mother would also have a hard time with it, but I think she would come around in time, since this child is her baby and has her unconditional love. Still, the family dynamics would be hard, to say the least, because of the way my parents are. They will not change overnight. To them, being gay is okay as long as it does not affect them. It does not mean they are bad people. It means they were raised to believe certain things, and changing the way they think will be hard and take time. I think those of us who are younger don't see it as a big deal because we were raised in a more open and accepting time. Which is great. But for older people, it might be a hurdle to overcome.

I agree with pittypat that a difference today is that a lot of parents are more noticeably trying to micro-manage their kids (although I can recall some horror parents from years ago). Another difference is that it is much mor e difficult to make it on your own financially at 18 today -- you used to be able to go out and get a nice-paying job at an auto plant or whatever. Also, as Emily pointed out, an 18 year old may be legally an adult but the brain is not really mature at that age. All in all, I think it is necessary to give young adults a break now a days, but of course there is a limit. I don't see anything wrong with letting a kid move back in and start over after a bad decision.

Ahh, parenthood.

Where theory meets reality and goes for a test-drive.

Post college DD went through a phase of dating ex-cons. Delightful!

11:16:
That's it exactly. Tee day after he told me, I cried for an hour in the shower -- I was mourning the loss of a potential daughter-in-law, of grandkids, of the whole predictability of the life I assumed he would lead.
And I'm terrified for him -- will he end up nailed to a fence, or dragged behind a truck, or in a hospice wasting away from AIDS? Just so many more potential risks...

11:16:
That's it exactly. The day after he told me, I cried for an hour in the shower -- I was mourning the loss of a potential daughter-in-law, of grandkids, of the whole predictability of the life I assumed he would lead.
And I'm terrified for him -- will he end up nailed to a fence, or dragged behind a truck, or in a hospice wasting away from AIDS? Just so many more potential risks...

"It means they were raised to believe certain things, and changing the way they think will be hard and take time. I think those of us who are younger don't see it as a big deal because we were raised in a more open and accepting time. Which is great. But for older people, it might be a hurdle to overcome."

It is the same older people who have raised the younger to be more open and accepting. As an older person, I have taught my children to be open and accepting even while knowing that I would personally have a hard time accepting it in one of my own children. Some of us do recognize our own biases and try not to pass it down to the next generation.

To anon for this:

You are right, of course. The whole issue reminds me of the movie "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner." Different issue (mixed race marriage), but same dymanics between the generations. Change is hard.

I love that movie. It would be nice to start channeling Katherine Hepburn to deal with this!

Educmom,

You'll find the more you talk about those fears and really explore them, the faster they will recede. Best of all, you'll probably be discussing it with him before you know it. And he'll get a chance to be the leader and teacher and allay your fears. Decades before you are in your Depends.

Remember "Dune"? And the little mantra about fear?

Don't feel obliged to rush the process. That doesn't work well in most situations. I have confidence that it will come with time and some introspection. (But I bet he'd appreciate a hug, sometime.)

Diane: my mom told me that when she got married-she was 20 and dad was 24- and neither of them was supporting themselves either. It's never been easy. (I'm not attacking you by the way, so I hope you don't take it as such).

And there's nothing wrong with having hopes and dreams for your kids and then taking a while to realize they're different than you thought and take some time to understand and learn.

"Some of us do recognize our own biases and try not to pass it down to the next generation."

I hope so. EDUCMOM is a TEACHER!

I can sense a tremendous contrast in her attitudes towards metro-son and gay-son. Sad, very sad.

My friend talked to her son about whether he was experimenting, or bisexual, or actually gay. They talked about gays who married women and raised families. He said that he "couldn't live a lie". She said "Why not, other people have and your life could be safer".

It has been ten years since that conversation and they now have a great relationship. He has moved to another city that is friendlier to gays and has a life partner. My friend is happy (content?) that he has found someone to share his life with rather than staying single and possibly having a greater exposure to disease. She and the rest of her family and the son and his partner have vacationed together for the past several years, and they visit each other several times a year.

Even if your son isn't totally pleased with your reactions now, you both will move forward to find comfort in your relationship with each other.

"I hope so. EDUCMOM is a TEACHER!
I can sense a tremendous contrast in her attitudes towards metro-son and gay-son. Sad, very sad."

What is sad is that for so long, our society condemned homosexuality, and that it still does to a large degree. Educmom did not create this situation. She is a product of this situation, perhaps as much a victim as anyone else. What is commendable is that she is willing to rethink it. Judging her for the way she thinks does nobody any good. But engaging her in the subject, allowing her to express herself, and airing this topic in an honest and contructive way is the way to change the way people think about it. It may be politically correct to be a kneejerk liberal, but it's not always productive, especially if your goal is to have a more open and accepting society.

I have always been grateful that I made the majority of my most idiotic mistakes before I turned 18 -- the stakes were lower then. (The obvious exception was my first marriage at 23. No one could have saved me from that!) I wish my parents could have advised me better -- but they had their own problems. my guess is that my particular problems were overwhelming to them and they didn't know what advice to give.

My teachers and some friends' parents were always good sources of advice. I'm grateful they were there, and I'm grateful I listened to them. I think it is important for kids to have other adults in their lives who can advise them when parents can't for whatever reasons.

guess who's coming to dinner is one of my favorite movies. I love the last scene where spencer tracy makes the speech about love and life and everything. It makes me cry just thinking about it.
My DH thought I was crazy when I got it for him as a present