Clare, do you have a list of laws that you think I should be able to violate with impunity? Legal immigrants are not the issue - what part of illegal do you not get? I am assuming you live in North Arlington, and basically only see illegal immigrants when you are in the park or when they come to clean your house. I'm afraid I'm not so lucky - my formerly solidly middle class neighborhood is being completely destroyed by the illegal rooming houses, yards overflowing with junk cars, etc.

Interesting.

When an Irish family moved next door to my childhood home, half the neighborhood moved out.

It's very easy to have this "we are the world" view when all you've done is spent some time with strangers in a public place. You don't live by them. You're not affected by their day-to-day lives. You're not impacted by the complaints that many people have had that surround the immigration debate. And so on.

In essence, this peice completely overlooks the bigger picture and problems that are occuring within Virginia (and other areas, I'm sure).

WaPo has an interesting article about this on the front page, and either an immigrant or an immigrant supporter (I can't remember which) said that for immigrants, their views are they're here for survival; house beautification is a distant second or third or fourth, etc., issue. Well, that's all fine and good for them, but that will have a detrimental affect on the neighorhood. And there's way too much (antecdotal) evidence supporting that to just dismiss it.

Just because you are letting your house go does not mean you are an illegal immigrant. I see several houses in my area with peeling paint and in need of a good weeding. The individuals who are living there do not appear to be illegal immigrants. I think we are so wrapped up in ourselves that we make these huge generalizations about people who are not like us and then claim we are not racist. Maybe we should start calling a spade a spade.

Lovely, thanks. I've been appalled by the rising racism I've seen lately, excused by "but they're illegal". The specifics generally cited as irritants (language, music, large families) have nothing to do with legal status and everything to do with cultural differences. And my family were undoubtedly the unwelcome "Irish trash" immigrants dispised early last century.

Lovely, thanks. I've been appalled by the rising racism I've seen lately, excused by "but they're illegal". The specifics generally cited as irritants (language, music, large families) have nothing to do with legal status and everything to do with cultural differences. And my family were undoubtedly the unwelcome "Irish trash" immigrants despised early last century.

Wow, it takes a lot of nerve to say

"my formerly solidly middle class neighborhood is being completely destroyed by the illegal rooming houses, yards overflowing with junk cars, etc.

Posted by: govgirl2000 | August 14, 2007 08:02 AM "

I have no idea where you live, but is there a specific behavior that is "completely destroying" your neighborhood? Is illegal immigration itself the problem, or is there a specific behavior you want to site?

Is it crime? Is it littering? Is it letting the houses become run down (which is probably not a crime)?

Because if you want to attribute the condition of your neighborhood to the specific action of some people getting off a boat or crossing a border, I really want to see the the logical proof behind that wonderful conclusion.

"Show your work, please" said the teacher...

I don't think it matters who is at the park--meaning what the racial/ethnic make-up is of the families that are using the park. I think the issue is that people are in this country illegally and not paying taxes that support our "lovely parks." People are welcome to visit the United States of America. But if you stay here to live, it should be legally--with al of the rights, responsibilities, and priveleges (including park access) that comes with legal residency. You could be white, hispanic, black, purple with pink pokadots--whatever???? But the issue is if you are a legal citizen, or not.

There is a difference between legal and illegal immigration. I think our country has an absolute right to control the number of people allowed to enter this country to live, work, study, or even vacation, and to screen the people allowed in.

I don't think we should halt all immigration, forever and ever. I think a brief (maybe 6-month) moratorium should be put into effect while we pursue enforcement actions against those here illegally; once we have deported those who already demonstrated a disregard for the rule of law, then we can begin processing visa applications. Those who were here illegally should be able to apply along with anyone else; their status as deportees should neither bump them to the front of the line nor eliminate them from consideration (unless they have other criminal convictions).

We can no longer afford to be the Mexican government's solution to its own systemic failures.

"Maybe we should start calling a spade a spade."

Be careful -- this is a racially charged statement. But then, on this blog today, I guess we might be in for a lot of that.

I honestly go back and forth about the immigration issue. I don't know what the answer is. It is difficult for me to defend someone's illegal actions -- even if it's an attempt to move where the money is or create a better life for the children. And yet, if I were living somewhere like Mexico or Haiti or Nigeria, I'd do everything in my power to get here. What concerns me the most is the money spent on support services for people who are here illegally.

I think we're a long way from people being asked for proof of citizenship at the entrance to a state park, however.

A related article in the Post today:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/13/AR2007081301166.html?hpid=artslot

...complete with the lady with her "This is America, speak english" sign.

With the allegations of "racism" already, methinks I won't be spending much time here today.

Posted by "thought"

"I think we are so wrapped up in ourselves that we make these huge generalizations about people who are not like us and then claim we are not racist."

Posted by "shandavegh"

"Lovely, thanks. I've been appalled by the rising racism I've seen lately,"

There are lots of productive discussions that can be had about the topic of immigration and what if anything can/should be done, but when one side asserts from the start that the other side only holds its beliefs because it's "racist" it's not likely to be productive. A shame, really.

Side note - interesting article in the Baltimore Sun - the Howard County Executive just figured out that the housekeeper he and his wife have been using since the birth of their latest child is an illegal immigrant. A reporter asked him if he knew whether she was legal or not; he said he'd check and then acknowledged she's not.

I just had a thought...what if Americans flooded into Mexico illegally, bringing our SUVs, tearing down homes and building McMansions, using the roads, using the parks--but not doing any of it legally. Meaning not paying a lick of taxes. I don't think the Mexican government would be happy with that. And do you think they'd like us "trashing up" our neighborhoods with American excess????

Mom always told me the "...spade a spade" thing has nothing to do with race:

http://www.yaelf.com/aueFAQ/miftocllspdspd.shtml

" To call a spade a spade is NOT an ethnic slur.
It derives from an ancient Greek expression: _ta syka syka, te:n
skaphe:n de skaphe:n onomasein_ = "to call a fig a fig, a trough a
trough". This is first recorded in Aristophanes' play _The Clouds_
(423 B.C.), was used by Menander and Plutarch, and is still current
in modern Greek. There has been a slight shift in meaning: in
ancient times the phrase was often used pejoratively, to denote a
rude person who spoke his mind tactlessly; but it now, like the
English phrase, has an exclusively positive connotation. It is
possible that both the fig and the trough were originally sexual
symbols.
In the Renaissance, Erasmus confused Plutarch's "trough"
(_skaphe:_) with the Greek word for "digging tool" (_skapheion_;
the two words are etymologically connected, a trough being
something that is hollowed out) and rendered it in Latin as _ligo_.
Thence it was translated into English in 1542 by Nicholas Udall in
his translation of Erasmus's version as "to call a spade [...] a
spade". (_Bartlett's Familiar Quotations_ perpetuates Erasmus'
error by mistranslating _skaphe:_ as "spade" three times under
Menander.)....

bla bla bla....

(And with that, I'm posting too much. I'm outta here.)

I meant to say "trashing up their neighborhoods..."

Actually WorkingMomX, if people are making generalizations that all people with run-down houses and who are speaking foreign languages are illegal then they need to call a spade a spade and admit that they just might be racist. Just because a family speaks Spanish in a park on the weekend does not make them illegal. It could be that they want to maintain their heritage and ensure that the language is not forgotten. My father immigrated here and because his family only spoke English once they came, he lost the ability to speak French.

I will maintain that when we make assumptions about people and say that we are not racist, we need to look at ourselves in the process and be really honest. Hurts I know.

Okay, one more.

Army Brat, FWIW, I don't believe you're a racist.

You don't need me to tell you that. But I just want you to know that all liberals aren't out to get you.

I find it puzzling to read about people who blame the problems in their neighborhoods on "illegal immigrants." How do they know that the people that they don't approve of are here illegally? Have they checked their documents? Or just glanced at the color of their skin and made assumptions?

And while we're on the topic of legal/illegal status, maybe each poster should tell us who let his or her ancestors into America... in my case, my ancestors who arrived in 1680 didn't ask the locals' permission.

Sorry, but natural resources are finite and so are the numbers of living wage jobs. I am against particularly the kind of out of control immigration that we are experiencing in the US because overpopulation not only degrades the environment, but it undercuts the wages of working people. This shrinking of pay is occuring first at the lower wage level, but will spread, as HIB visas increase. Those who claim it is racist or xenophobic to be alarmed about this probably don't themselves depend on a paycheck to survive.

barfster

"And while we're on the topic of legal/illegal status, maybe each poster should tell us who let his or her ancestors into America... in my case, my ancestors who arrived in 1680 didn't ask the locals' permission. "

Your ancestors had a lot of sex with my ancestors who were locals....

"When an Irish family moved next door to my childhood home, half the neighborhood moved out."

Awww, which is why we usually kept to ourselves. My whole hill was family until about ten years ago.

On topic, I doubt that the people who are railing about services to illegal immigrants are talking about families in the park. I would bet that it is more along the lines of social services.

I am sorry, but it's not just the social services either that are a threat to our national safety and welfare. Look at the three smart, promising kids who were killed in New Jersey. They were killed by an illegal immigrant who was out on bail for raping a five year old baby. Because he lived in a sanctuary city, the judge who let him out was not obligated to call the Feds to come pick him up. I am sorry, but we are out of control with illegal immigration and it is not a good thing for anyone, including the illegal immigrants who just come here for a better life.

"Just because a family speaks Spanish in a park on the weekend does not make them illegal. It could be that they want to maintain their heritage and ensure that the language is not forgotten."

That is an excellent point!!!! For all Clare, the original poster, knows--every single family in the park that day was here LEGALLY!

To newhere:
Hello distant cousin! Sorry about our illegal entry.

"When an Irish family moved next door to my childhood home, half the neighborhood moved out."

Why did they move out?

I tend to agree with WorkingMomX. I'm pretty torn on this issue. I also agree with barfster - sounds like people are making assumptions that an immigrant is here illegally.

Personally, I'd like for employers to be held more responsible for illegal immigrants. I don't have much sympathy for individuals who employ somebody without verifying their status as either a citizen or a legal immigrant. We employed a latin american nanny for our DS and we checked to make sure she had a valid green card and withheld her federal and state taxes and all the rest. Did we pay more for her than our "friends" who knowingly employed an illegal immigrant - yep and a lot more. And they knew it, which is why they purposely employed somebody illegally. I have sympathy for illegal immigrants trying to provide for a better life for their families. I have far less sympathy for employers trying to save a buck and taking advantage of people who they know aren't here legally.

With regard to this blog entry, I think it's a waste of tax payer money to somehow enforce keeping illegal immigrants out of our parks. They don't have a right to it (because they're illegal, duh), but we shouldn't waste time trying to keep them out. There are much bigger problems that need the attention of law enforcement.

With regard to illegal immigration in general, I like educmom's solution, although I'm sure there are lots of other good ones. Basically, our economy can't support the number of illegal immigrants living here. We need immigrant labor, though. So we need to reform our immigration system to make it easier to get in (no more waiting 5 years for a work visa) and then put a reasonable limit on it. Then we can worry about enforcing the borders, etc.

In North Carolina, we have major illegal immigration problems. Drunk driving, driving without insurance, gangs, overcrowded schools and hospitals... I'm sure for every one illegal alien who breaks the laws, there are 10 more who do their best to follow the laws of which they are aware. But there needs to be a system in place to identify illegal immigrants so that they can be held accountable for their actions. The sooner we make them legal and deport the ones who have broken laws, the sooner we can collect their taxes and track them down if they commit crimes. Just like every other immigrant (including me) in the U.S.

"Why did they move out?"

They got tired of the step dancing in the front yard. That is how we chased all our neighbors away.

Okay, I have a couple of problems here.

First, why is Spanish 'the' language of illegal aliens? There is a large contingent of illegal aliens from eastern Europe; perhaps a number of illegals speak Czech, Polish, Ukranian, Romanian. There is a contingent of illegal aliens from China with all the Chinese dialects being spoken. Just a point...

Second, actually over half of the illegal aliens do pay taxes. Since they use fake IDs, they are employed under a SS#. Thus, payroll taxes are taken from their pay.

Third, perhaps we need to look to ourselves as part of the problem/solution to the illegal alien issue. Who do you think cleans the toilets in your office building? Who do you think makes your fast food? For that matter, who do you think prepares the food and buses the plates in chain restaurants? Who do you think harvests the food that you eat? All those lovely organic veggies and fruits - who do you think picks them? And how about your "Made in the US" clothing? Who cuts the grass and landscapes your lovely world? Who do you think builds the McMansions and outer suburbs that so many of us live in?

Why did they move out?"

They got tired of the step dancing in the front yard. That is how we chased all our neighbors away.

Posted by: Irishgirl74 | August 14, 2007 09:13 AM

______________

I'm laughing out loud at my computer :-)

To newhere:
Hello distant cousin! Sorry about our illegal entry.

Posted by: barfster | August 14

No problem. Revenge on the White Man has been sweet and pretty easy.

Skylark,
The H1B visas are already having a seriously detrimental effect on the wages of technology workers. Most recently, STBX was offered a position as a contractor to work for a federal agency. However, before the paperwork could be processed, the small contracting house he was working through discovered that the main contractor on the project had changed -- the new company got the assignment by promising to cut salaries in half (STBX declined the job)...the agency is known for being an H1B contracting house. Wages in the field took a hit in 2000, and they continue to remain stagnant or, more often, decline.
People like Bill Gates are complaining that there is a shortage of tech workers, and it will get worse, but seem to be unaware of their own role in creating the problem. The number of students studying comp-sci has dropped by something like 40% -- because those students are smart enough to know that choice no longer assures a stable career! And Gates has announced initiatives to move Microsoft jobs offshore!

I can't stay away. This is one of my favorite topics.

"In North Carolina, we have major illegal immigration problems. Drunk driving, driving without insurance, gangs, overcrowded schools and hospitals... I'm sure for every one illegal alien who breaks the laws, there are 10 more who do their best to follow the laws of which they are aware."

Meesh, so is the problem (A) the lawlessness, or (B) that these people don't have a Green Card?

Lest people think I am irrational on this topic, I am not PRO illegal immigrant. I simply suspect that these illegals are scapegoats for some of our social ills. I also think, as Londonmom implied, that the easiest way to stem this problem is through the employers, because the employers are really the only people who can tell who is illegal and who is legal. You and I on the street just can't tell. Neither can the regular police.

"...major illegal immigration problems. Drunk driving, driving without insurance, gangs, overcrowded schools and hospitals"

Whew, I'm so relieved to know that none of us citizens or otherwise legal folks ever does any of these things.

Proud Papa -- You say "Mom always told me the "...spade a spade" thing has nothing to do with race"

Someone needs to tell people of color this, because I was accused of racism when I used that very statement during a large meeting once. I agree with you that while it may never have been originally intended as racist (I certainly didn't mean it that way and had no idea I was offending anyone when I said it), it is now problematic at least for some.

Also, Scarry, I am LMAO at the idea of step dancing neighbors. That should be a new event in the lawn Olympics in my community. And with the drought at the level it is where I live, our yard is probably hard enough for you to stepdance on it and make noise.

I think illegal immigrants are to our country what Jews were to early 20th century Germany. Pretty easy to pick hispanics/latinos out (slightly tanner, often bilingual) and therefore easy to blame all our country's ills on them. I'll bet the money the government spends on social services for ILLEGAL immigrants doesn't even begin to rival what we've spent on the Iraq war. But why fix our problems, or make our tax system more fair, when we can blame "them."

Unless you're native American, you were once "them" too. I know in my family's case, German was spoke as the language at home for 4-5 generations until the World Wars made speaking German unpopular and schooling made the younger generations forget it. So don't assume because a family is speaking Spanish to one another that they haven't been here for generations and generations. The problem now is that while we used to let almost anyone in (Germans, Irish, Italians...) the immigration code in the last several decades has changed so that the quotas we'll allow from Latino countries is ridiculously low. We let everyone else have their turn, but now that America is "full" please tell all these human beings they aren't allowed to have an equal shot at survival. Tell them to go back to their third world countries because they were born too late and are too dark skinned to come to this country.

And talk of the H1B visas in this conversation is totally irrelevant. H1B is what Gates uses to bring Indians over here to train, and then after a year sends back to India so they can outsource all our high tech jobs. Personally, I don't feel my job is threatened by the Latinos coming over the border and I welcome them and their contribution to society. I think by legalizing them and forcing their wages to be on the books and on par with an American worker's wages that we'll have a better country.

Yeah, I laughed at myself for the stepdancing crack. No stepdancing for me at the Irish fest this year though, to fat in the belly this year.

I'll just eat my way through the food stalls.

Let's make sure there is a Step Dancing tag for irishgirl74.

"We let everyone else have their turn, but now that America is "full" please tell all these human beings they aren't allowed to have an equal shot at survival."

And here lies one of the problems with immigration. It has nothing to do with their skin color, it has to do with them being illegal. Also, our country cannot take care of the whole world. Sooner or later other countries should have to learn to start taking care of their own people.

"We let everyone else have their turn, but now that America is "full" please tell all these human beings they aren't allowed to have an equal shot at survival."

And here lies one of the problems with immigration. It has nothing to do with their skin color, it has to do with them being illegal. Also, our country cannot take care of the whole world. Sooner or later other countries should have to learn to start taking care of their own people.

Posted by: Irishgirl74 | August 14, 2007 09:42 AM

________________

Now, if everyone in the world moved to America (making the crazy assumption that they would want to), would our planet spin out of orbit...our weight load would certainly be off balance. And could everyone physically "fit" in America?

Irishgirl74

"And here lies one of the problems with immigration. It has nothing to do with their skin color, it has to do with them being illegal."

Oh, the irony...

"We let everyone else have their turn, but now that America is "full" please tell all these human beings they aren't allowed to have an equal shot at survival."

And here lies one of the problems with immigration. It has nothing to do with their skin color, it has to do with them being illegal. Also, our country cannot take care of the whole world. Sooner or later other countries should have to learn to start taking care of their own people.

Posted by: Irishgirl74 | August 14, 2007 09:42 AM

Yes but it let your relatives in, and mine. What gives us the right to say no. When did other country's people become "their own people" when a couple hundred years ago, your relatives or mine came from another country as well. They weren't asking for social benefits, they just wanted a job and a wage. Same is true with today's illegals. What gives you or I the right to tell them no. That they are less than human. That American has been letting everyone in for centuries, but now we're going to stop.

OR...wait, wait, wait, I have a really good idea! What if we didn't have everyone actually move here? What if, instead, we took our American ideals and spread them around the globe? Yea, that's it...get every country and government to run like our wonderful government. Hmmmm....wait a second, we're already doing that. ;)

haha Kattoo that was an exaggeration of course, but I think you know what I mean.

haha Kattoo that was an exaggeration of course, but I think you know what I mean.

Posted by: Irishgirl74 | August 14, 2007 09:49 AM

____________

I did know what you mean...I'm just in a very goofy mood today...as you can clearly tell.

WorkingMomX, I'm a person of color.

I just think that people who are offended at the "...spade a spade" term when it is used correctly just are not knowledgeable about the origin of the term. If you used it correctly they were wrong to accuse you of anything. It's their mistake and you'd win in court.

Now, I have no doubt that some loons could use this phrase as a pejorative, but if you weren't doing so you were in the right.

I think this is a good example of where Political Correctness goes wrong. I think there are some valid expressions of PC -- If 2 people are not offended by the use of the n-word they still should not use it in the presence of a 3rd person who might be offended, for example.

"What gives you or I the right to tell them no. That they are less than human. That American has been letting everyone in for centuries, but now we're going to stop."

Sorry this is not what I said. I did not say that anyone was less than human or that immigration had to stop. Illegal immigration should be stopped; legal immigration is fine with me. And in case you are wondering, my family came here legally, my SIL looked it all up.

And in case you are wondering, my family came here legally, my SIL looked it all up.

Posted by: Irishgirl74 | August 14,

Yes, your family is known for their research skills...

Hey newhere what is your problem? You don't know anything about my SIL. I also don't see the irony in my statement, but you must live in your own world, so I am sure it makes sense to you.

Ziggymiles you are on the ball with this immigration issue. Everyone has a right to make a better life for their family, and the root of the problem in this country is crime and poverty, not immigration. Immigrants, both legal and illegal, have always been the scapegoats. Just a few generations ago it was Irish drunks brawling in the streets, or Italian mafioso's extorting money and whacking people left and right. Now it's latinos and muslims, next it could be Indian Hindu's or Australian aborigines, who knows?

And Irishgirl74, it's pretty naive to think that the United States is the only country immigrants are flocking to, we are not taking care of the whole world (immigrationally speaking). Pretty much every Western country is having issues with immigrants and national identity. Have you been to Ireland lately? Hardly anyone in the service industry in that country is Irish anymore, most are from eastern Europe or the carribean and are there legally or illegally due to the economic boom, and the Irish are none too pleased with it. But it's a double-edged sword, no one wants to take the lower paying jobs, so they go to the immigrants, much like in this country. Germany, Switzerland, England, and France are having similar issues with immigrants from Muslim countries, so the US is not alone in our immigration woes.

Besides the imfamous Anonymous troll weighing in with over 15,000 comments, our top 25 posters from year 2007 are listed below:

300 Maryland Mother
338 Army Brat
338 educmom
380 pittypat
388 Leslie
438 Laura
470 John L
486 cmac
496 WorkingMomX
593 Megan
603 Father of 4
685 Meesh
706 Mona
727 moxiemom
786 dotted
815 Chris
859 atlmom
964 catlady
965 scarry
1013 Megan's Neighbor
1081 foamgnome
1283 pATRICK
1310 Emily
1376 Fred
1631 KLB SS MD

To ziggy, I would like to point out two items from your posts: 1 - you said you personally didn't feel any threat or job to your employment from immigrants. That was my point, partly; that it's easy to be pro-immigrant and pro Emma Lazuras when you personally are not harmed. Secondly, in your last post you implied that we should let "everyone" in, just because there was a lot of empty space and opportunity here in the 19th century. What do you mean by "everyone"? Do other countries let "everyone" move there?

i agree there is a lot of prejudice, assumptions and generalizations characterizing the discussions about immigration.

unfortunately this latent and overt racism obscures the bigger issues, of how to continue to allow immigration (which this country has always needed and supported) without overburdening current residents.

I knew it would generate controversy but I didn't expect people to completely miss the point of my blog. I didn't say everyone at the park was illegal. There was just a wonderful mixture of language and culture that is threatened by the methods used to combat illegal immigration.

I do think that the county's vote to restrict access to public services will have a chilling effect on civic participation by legal and illegal immigrants because they will feel unwelcome and targets of discrimination. My husband after 25 years here and a PhD still has a strong accent--should he carry his green card at all times to avoid harrasment? Will my Latino son with beautiful black eyes and brown skin, born in the USA, be pulled over more frequently by police for questioning? What if it turns out his friends are illegal immigrants and they are pulled over in Prince William county for "credible" suspicion? Is my son a criminal for taking friends to a soccer game to play in a public park? This is what I fear from the County's approach to combating illegal immigration...discrimination, harrassment and segregation.

barfster:

"And while we're on the topic of legal/illegal status, maybe each poster should tell us who let his or her ancestors into America... in my case, my ancestors who arrived in 1680 didn't ask the locals' permission."

___________________________

Okay, I'll take a crack at it. This is what I know; I'm sure there's a bunch I don't know.

On my father's side, my grandfather came from Prince Edward Island, Canada in 1914. His family had been subsistence farmers there for a couple of hundred years, according to the records in the parish church. (Being on the losing side of the French and Indian Wars in the mid-1700's, they had pretty much kept to their own community. Heck, Grandpa always called it l'Isle de St Jean-Batiste.) Since he wasn't in line to inherit the family farm, it was time to move on.

He moved to Maine, and married my grandmother there. She was a member of the Plains Cree tribe, mixed with some German and Dutch. Don't know the proportions; the genealogist on that side of the family says that most of the family members were alcoholics, ministers or both, so the records aren't trustworthy.

On my mother's side, my grandfather came from Sonora, Mexico in 1922. It's my grandmother's side that came over in the 1600s without the permission of the locals. (The genealogist on that side of the family supposedly traces the line back to an illegitimate child of Lord Nelson, by way of Ireland.)

Good enough?

"And in case you are wondering, my family came here legally"

In the 19th and early 20th centuries, the US had comparatively few laws regulating immigration, ergo fewer opportunities for immmigrants to violate laws while entering the US.

OTOH, a good many of these technically legal immigrants came here, shall we say, "clandestinely," which I suspect some Americans even then resented. And the majority of these immigrants were illiterate even in their native language and spoke little if any English upon arrival (if they ever learned much of it). Even their American-born children often spoke their parents' native tongue as a second language (a phenomenon that still frequently occurs, as children often have to interpret for their parents).

A visit to the Ellis Island, or to its website, is informative about the history of immigration to the US.

ProudPapa and catlady, I didn't realize I was being unclear. Sorry. The problem, of course, is that they don't have IDs, green cards, licenses, whatever. When I break the law, I can easily be tracked down. When illegals break the law, they are much harder to track. The solution is for them to be given IDs. Ideally, we would make them legal, but a band-aid might be to issue "illegal status" cards or something like that.

Obviously those illegal acts I listed are committed by all citizens as well as illegal immigrants. I assumed that went without saying. My stepmother, a Colombian native, has a nonprofit that advocates for the rights of illegal immigrants. In her words, those are some of the problems plaging the immigrant community. It might be attributed to the fact that the law really has no recourse if illegal immigrants break laws because they are not documented.

Just an FYI for everyone blaming "Mexican" immigrants. The majority of the Spanish-speaking population who emigrate to this area are from El Salvador and Guatamala. Get your facts straight before you start labeling.

And Irishgirl74, it's pretty naive to think that the United States is the only country immigrants are flocking to, we are not taking care of the whole world (immigrationally speaking).

I didn't address immigration in other countries because I thought we were talking about this country. I also didn't say we were the only country having this issue. There are lots of other developed countries who are having problems with illegal immigration as well. I don't think I am being naïve; I was just trying to speak to the topic at hand, but apparently that makes me naïve and a racist, so I will come back on "white racist day"

To ziggy, I would like to point out two items from your posts: 1 - you said you personally didn't feel any threat or job to your employment from immigrants. That was my point, partly; that it's easy to be pro-immigrant and pro Emma Lazuras when you personally are not harmed. Secondly, in your last post you implied that we should let "everyone" in, just because there was a lot of empty space and opportunity here in the 19th century. What do you mean by "everyone"? Do other countries let "everyone" move there?

Posted by: skylark1 | August 14, 2007 10:15 AM

Most jobs aren't threatened by illegal immigration. Do you work in fast food? Do you work in janitorial services? Do you pick fruit/vegetables? Engineers aren't sneaking across the border. And would you do their job for $4 or $5 an hour? No you wouldn't. But guess what, when a company can pay someone that crappy salary to do a job they will. And if we "let everyone in" or legalize the employment in this country, we'll force employers to pay these people minimum wage. Then they will be just as likely to hire you or me because we'll all cost the same at that point. Yes I think we ought to find a way to "let everyone in." I.E.,increase the "quotas" for latino immigrants and let them work and be residents for seven years before applying for citizenship. As it is now, the opportunity for them to do that isn't there, hence why they're all illegal and apparently ruining your life.

Do other countries let everyone in? No, likely not. But this discussion is about America. If I want to argue French immigration I'll learn French and go hop on a French blog.

Oh and I wasn't saying we should let everyone in "because" there was a whole lot of empty space and opportunity in the 19th century. Actually, if you look at 19th century legislation you'll see the ruling elites at that time were VERY against immigration, especially by what were at the time ethnic minorities. There were fears the national language would become german or italian. They were afraid all these immigrants were going to come in and take their jobs, take their opportunity, and take the land that they wanted. Those that stuck around were willing to take the scraps we left them which were at the time the vast stretches of land in the west where no "civilized" person wanted to live. Well guess what, there are still scraps left.

The country isn't falling apart. The oceans aren't drying up, bridges aren't falling into rivers, hurricanes aren't flooding entire cities, and we aren't tied up in some long lasting war where terrorists are slaughtering our young men and women. Oh, well uh, everything but that last paragraph...

Meesh, I imagine one of the problems your stepmother has observed in her non-profit work is the exploitation of illegal immigrants, since they cannot report crimes or employment violations they suffer to the authorities without risking jailing or deportation themselves. I assume illegals are sometimes taken advantage of by "real" Americans precisely for this reason. Could you please share some examples from your stepmother's experience (without violating anyone's privacy, of course)?

ArmyBrat

"The genealogist on that side of the family supposedly traces the line back to an illegitimate child of Lord Nelson, by way of Ireland."

This is America, who cares about Lord Nelson?

If we are going to make laundry lists of family lines( without running a whole bunch of DNA tests), I have it on the very best authority that I direct descendent of Aadam & Eve.

Proud Papa -- I am glad to hear you say that. At the time I was mortified beyond description that someone in the meeting thought I'd made a racist statement and it was taken very seriously by my firm and there was a complaint investigation, even though the ED at the time told me he was personally certain I'd meant nothing racist at all.

Ziggymiles -- as I've said before, I don't know the solution to the illegal alien problem, but I am certain it isn't to just open the doors and let everyone in. Our social services could not withstand the demands. In the span of a few decades, I could see that America would go from being the place everyone wants to be to the place no one even wants to visit. Is there another country that lets everyone in? I'm curious.

I think ziggymiles is off-base. The problem with letting 'everyone' in is that this is no longer the country it was in the 19th century. We need to live in the present; we can't continue to do what we have always done just because we have always done it.

As I said before, our country has every right to control the flow of immigrants and visitors. We can debate the proper number of allowable immigrants from each country or hemisphere; we can discuss criteria, visa types and durations; but to say we should allow anyone in just because my ancestors came here from Ireland, Scotland, Wales and France in the early 1800s and were allowed to stay is not logical. I suppose they were lucky in that regard (although I'm sure that leaving a country because they still were abusing and discriminating against Catholics might not be considered so lucky in their opinion -- and I'm VERY sure the ones fleeing the Reign of Terror would have preferred to have lived in another era).

Wow, it takes a lot of nerve to say

"my formerly solidly middle class neighborhood is being completely destroyed by the illegal rooming houses, yards overflowing with junk cars, etc.

Actually, PP it takes some nerve to cry racism at every turn and pretend that everyone is just a nice middle class person. Illegal immigrants are generally poorer and do things like this.

Ziggymiles, the restrictive anti-immigration legislation to which you refer wasn't passed till 1924. True, there existed raging prejudice by Anglo Protestants against all others unlike themselves (other immigrants, native Americans and (ex-)slaves) for as long as the latter three groups have been here. However, immigrants were pouring into the US for a good 60-70 years before the government severely stemmed the tide with strict quotas. It was only in the late 1950s that these quotas began to be lifted.

I hear many people complaining that the problem with immigraion is not that people are immigrants, but rather that they are illegal immigrants. So they claim that the allegations of racism are not deserved, because of course, their problem is with illegal immigrants, not legal ones. But truly, how do they know that the people they are referring to are illegal, and in truth, do we really know what proportion of the immigrants in this country are illegal versus legal?

The fact of the matter is that immigrants, whether legal or illegal, have different lifestyles than Americans. They tend to have larger families, and they tend to fit more people into their modest houses or apartments. This has nothing to do with their legal status here. It is simply part of what they do to live more affordably and help each other out. And it bothers Americans, who are used to living mostly within their small nuclear families.

Immigrants also tend to speak their own language for a few generations, whether or not they are legal or illegal. I have been a legal immigrant all my life, and I speak Spanish at home with my parents. When we have large family gatherings, the older generations speak Spanish to each other and the children, and the children speak English to each other. The fact that we speak our native language does not make us illegal.

But many people, in their ignorance, will assume that because we are speaking Spanish, or because some of us have multiple generations of extended family living in the same home, or because some of us are brown skinned rather than white, or because some of us work in construction or as housekeepers and nannies, that we are illegal. To such people, immigrant is a bad word, and illegal is simply a tag that they use to justify, without much foundation, their disdain for people who come from other countries and cultures and who speak different languages. In the end, we don't know what proportion of the population is illegal. We don't know that the family next door who listens to salsa and has 10 people living in it are illegals. We just assume that they are, because it gives us a convenient excuse to look down on them.

newhere, nice comment (sarcasm intended). I was simply responding to earlier challenge to share with the blog who let our ancestors in (legally or otherwise).

And my son tells me that his Catholic high school teaches that the Adam and Eve stuff is a parable, so he (and I) would really doubt your claim of descent.

We don't know that the family next door who listens to salsa and has 10 people living in it are illegals. We just assume that they are, because it gives us a convenient excuse to look down on them.

ALERT*ALERT* BLEEDING HEART LIBERAL ALERT*

Hide your tax dollars, close the blinds,let go of your logic, you are entering the PC Twilight zone, where all common sense and reason are non existent.

You know what? I get tired of people on this blog ~acting~ as if they have been called racist sometimes.

I wanted to vent that. Because it has gone back to they very early beginnings of this forum.

Somebody makes a statement that could be interpreted as racially charged. Person 2 says that statement could be taken as racist. Instead of the first person saying, "hey please objectively explain how someone could interpret that as racist", the first person declares that they have been called a racist and storms off in a huff.

This is part of the reason we have such a hard time discussing race in this country. People on both sides fall back on insisting they are being attacked rather than actually having a debate.

Some folks were discussing rap music in this space last week and I was accused of indicating that another reader could not understand hip hop culture because that participant is white. That's just silly. No one who knows anything about hip hop would say white people couldn't understand it because of the skin color. But hey, it's an easy crutch to act like someone has slandered you.

Sorry for the rant.

All that I will say is that I absolutely LOVE the division this creates on the right. Go read what the Cato Institute has to say. As good little Libertarians, they abhor borders and believe in the free movement of people. Then go read the Heritage Foundation. As good little Karl-Rove-lovers, they hate these slimy foreigners that think they can get into this great country of ours. Let them fight it out. For those of us that are pragmatic, and like to deal with the real world, we all know what the solution is. Peace out.

catlady, you are absolutely right about them being taken advantage of. She told me a story about two young men who were day laborers who were taken to a construction site, worked 9 hours, and never payed or given a ride home. One had seriously injured his hand, but the guy who hired them wouldn't take him to the hospital. So that's part of what they do at her nonprofit. They have some lawyers who have offered pro bono work to press charges on behalf of the illegals. The organization was also instrumental in starting a grassroots campaign against drunk driving geared toward the immigrant population. In Hispanic culture, there is "machismo." This "bravery" contributes to drunk driving because men won't admit weakness by saying they've had too much to drink or that they're not able to drive. The campaign uses bumper stickers and flyers saying (en espanol, por supuesto) "Don't be stupid, man. Don't drink and drive!"

Nice topic

"ALERT*ALERT* BLEEDING HEART LIBERAL ALERT*

Hide your tax dollars, close the blinds,let go of your logic, you are entering the PC Twilight zone, where all common sense and reason are non existent."

I just barfed. Since you have loads of experience cleaning this in your pwecious car, why don't you make yourself useful and go clean it up!

Patrick,
When you actually have said something worth listening to, I will consider discussing it with you. Until then, you are officially on my stupid troll list, and I will ignore your idiot rantings.

Emily wrote, astutely: "To such people, immigrant is a bad word, and illegal is simply a tag that they use to justify, without much foundation, their disdain for people who come from other countries and cultures and who speak different languages."

A crucial question is, how can anyone tell illegal from legal immigrants just by looking and listening? Answer: No one can. So what potentially happens is that even legal immigrants (even if naturalized citizens) run the risk of suffering anti-immigrant prejudice, too, whether in employment, housing, shopping, public gatherings, and just about any other social situation.

Posted by: Emily | August 14, 2007 10:46 AM

And you are on my silly bleeding heart liberal list, so big deal.

Emily, I object to your stereotyping. In the part of Howard County with which I am most familiar, there are far more immigrants from Korea, India, and other areas of Asia than from Latin America. (In fact, you can get the elementary school newsletter sent home in Korean, Urdu, and Hindu as well as English and Spanish.) So, with that in mind, let's take a look at parts of your post:

"The fact of the matter is that immigrants, whether legal or illegal, have different lifestyles than Americans."

In some ways, yes. In others, not so different. You're stereotyping "Americans" as middle-class to upper-middle-class, suburban residents.

"They tend to have larger families, and they tend to fit more people into their modest houses or apartments."

Clearly not the case with the Koreans and Indians around here.

"This has nothing to do with their legal status here. It is simply part of what they do to live more affordably and help each other out. And it bothers Americans, who are used to living mostly within their small nuclear families."

Again, you're stereotyping "Americans".

"Immigrants also tend to speak their own language for a few generations, whether or not they are legal or illegal."

I'll agree with that. That's why the elementary school newsletter is available in different languages, and yes my kids have a number of friends whose parents do not speak English well.

"I have been a legal immigrant all my life, and I speak Spanish at home with my parents. When we have large family gatherings, the older generations speak Spanish to each other and the children, and the children speak English to each other. The fact that we speak our native language does not make us illegal."

Agree.

My brand new next-door neighbors are a Korean family with two small children. The parents arrived (legally) last year and do not speak English well; we communicate with them as well as we can and we can usually get the point across.

The neighbors they replaced were Iranian; that was the family where the father (already out of the Federal pen on parole) tried to kill the mother and almost succeeded; he's in the state pen; she's on life support and the three kids are attending a residential school in Pennsylvania.

Before that, the neighbors were a US-born caucasian couple who rented out their basement to help make the payments; there were six adults living there at one point.

So please watch your stereotypes.

I believe that when people speak about illegal immigrants putting a strain on "public services", they are thinking along the lines of the health and education system.

Not the park system. You clearly live in a bubble.

Emily wrote, astutely: "To such people, immigrant is a bad word, and illegal is simply a tag that they use to justify, without much foundation, their disdain for people who come from other countries and cultures and who speak different languages."

Actually, this is not true. It is merely her leftist dogma. People are tired of illegals draining this country and people like Emily don't have the cojones to do anything about it because they are mortally afraid of being called racist, regardless of the consequences of illegal immigration.

pATRICK, Do you find different perspectives in Texas re Hispanic immigrants (legal or otherwise) owing to your proximity to the US's southern border? A person living along our northern border might be more directly affected by, believe it or not, a sizable influx of illegal Canadian immigrants.

Proud Papa -- Why do you think people react the way they do when someone calls them racist? Speaking for myself, the complaint that was filed at my firm caused me tremendous anxiety (almost terror) and a huge amount of introspection as I tried to determine if I was really what I'd been called -- a racist. I was horrified that someone (granted someone who barely knew me) would think that, I was afraid I would lose my job, and since it was Washington DC, I was seriously scared it would end up in court because of my position within the firm. I did not engage in debate with the person making the complaint because I was terrified and literally afraid to open my mouth for fear of being misconstrued -- never mind the fact that the firm's attorney and diversity committee instructed both of us to have no "unsupervised" contact with each other until the complaint had been thoroughly investigated. As I said, the complaint was found to be without merit, but I don't know how I could have handled things differently. It still upsets me to this day to think about it.

We can argue back and forth about anecdotes all day long. "My next-door-neighbor is an illegal and they have 20 children pooping on the lawn all day long." "My next-door neighbor is a God-loving American and fought in 20 wars to save this country." Blah blah blah. Please read the actual research on the net impact of immigration. Plenty of think tanks have looked into this. Put aside your knee-jerk reactions and look at the overall evidence. If you can't do that, then just admit that you have prior beliefs that won't be changed even if obvious evidence hits you in your protruding forehead.

pATRICK - Lou Dobbs and Bill O'Reilly are having a tea party and are wondering what happened to you. They're at your favorite place, THE NO SPIN ZONE. Don't worry, only white people allowed and no one calling you racist.

ArmyBrat: you as white, "Lord Nelson" descendant - careful who you chide about steretypes. Emily is going off of vast personal experience for her own family. You citing a few more personal examples that go against some general statements is just more personal experience, and doesn't make you any better of a person.

Proud papa,

You are completely out of line with your post. I left the conversation because I don't want to go back and forth with posters that this is a race issue because for me it is not. I was being sarcastic when I said I would come back for white racist day because I feel that when talking about illegal immigration many people feel that if you are not for it, it is because you are racist. It really had nothing to do with anything that was posted to me today on the post, but rather, conversations I have had with my more liberal friends and people I have watched on TV. I saw the blog going in that direction and did not want to be involved with it.

I was going to continue to read the blog because I find this topic interesting when I saw your post. But just to make you feel better, I have been called racist on here in the past.

As for your other post about "the no snitching" trend, you never replied to me, so we could not discuss it in further detail. However, I did apologize for offending you because I really did not mean too.

Proud papa,

You are completely out of line with your post. I left the conversation because I don't want to go back and forth with posters that this is a race issue because for me it is not. I was being sarcastic when I said I would come back for white racist day because I feel that when talking about illegal immigration many people feel that if you are not for it, it is because you are racist. It really had nothing to do with anything that was posted to me today on the post, but rather, conversations I have had with my more liberal friends and people I have watched on TV. I saw the blog going in that direction and did not want to be involved with it.

I was going to continue to read the blog because I find this topic interesting when I saw your post. But just to make you feel better, I have been called racist on here in the past.

As for your other post about "the no snitching" trend, you never replied to me, so we could not discuss it in further detail. However, I did apologize for offending you because I really did not mean to.

Actually, this is not true. It is merely her leftist dogma. People are tired of illegals draining this country and people like Emily don't have the cojones to do anything about it because they are mortally afraid of being called racist, regardless of the consequences of illegal immigration.

Posted by: pATRICK | August 14, 2007 10:51 AM

What would Jesus do? I presume He has sufficient cojones to handle the matter.

pATRICK - Lou Dobbs and Bill O'Reilly are having a tea party and are wondering what happened to you. They're at your favorite place, THE NO SPIN ZONE. Don't worry, only white people allowed and no one calling you racist.

I am for LEGAL immigration if that is heavily hispanic, then fine. I am NOT for letting people in this country illegally. I detest reading people who usually are hispanic crying racism about ILLEGAL immigration. When they do this it makes them look like ,to hell with the law, I am hispanic first and screw america.

Clare -- I agree it seems most everyone has missed your point about diversity and immigration being very valuable, on many levels. prejudice hurts a lot of innocent people. what we are seeing today on this blog -- a lot of passionate (and some well thought out) opinions about the pros/cons of immigration -- is what clouds our national debates. but the fact that everyone cares so much (another kind of diversity -- diversity of opinion) is also the good news here.

Leslie, I disagree entirely with you. I don't think many people have missed Clare's point about diversity and immigration being valuable. I haven't seen anyone arguing otherwise.

I'll say it out loud: Diversity is a good thing. I'm proud to be part-Mexican, part-Native American, part French-Canadian, and part-pretty-much-every-country-in-Europe. I'm glad that my kids went to one of the most diverse elementary schools in Maryland. I'm glad that they've had the chance to interact with people from other cultures, to learn about people who speak other languages, belong to other religions (or no religion at all), eat different foods, etc.

Now, what does that have to do with illegal immigration?

pATRICK, Do you find different perspectives in Texas re Hispanic immigrants (legal or otherwise) owing to your proximity to the US's southern border? A person living along our northern border might be more directly affected by, believe it or not, a sizable influx of illegal Canadian immigrants.

I guess. We don't have to many canadians sneaking across the border in Texas. What we do have are violent smuggling rings that are turning border towns into the wild west. These criminal elements are also involved heavily in drug trafficking.

ziggymiles, do you have a point? I never claimed to be a "better person" than Emily or anyone else.

Emily posted a message that I thought contained substantial stereotypes about "immigrants" and "Americans". I responded by pointing out that there are other "immigrants" that didn't fit her stereotypes, and "Americans" that don't fit her stereotypes either.

My point was that we have to realize that there are many different types of "immigrants" and "Americans", and we need to understand that to solve the problems that currently exist.

Now, did you have a point?

"Emily posted a message that I thought contained substantial stereotypes about "immigrants" and "Americans". I responded by pointing out that there are other "immigrants" that didn't fit her stereotypes, and "Americans" that don't fit her stereotypes either."

Of course there are exceptions to every stereotype. Duh!! But that does not mean that some generalizations are not valid. And I should have specified that I was mostly talking about Hispanic immigrants, because my experience is mostly with this group.

Show of hands, please:

1. How many posters here would like to earn 10 times (or more) their present income, at least for a few years?

2. What if, in order to achieve this, you had to live for a while in another country?

3. What if you furthermore had to run the risks associated with living there illegally?

4. At what point would the risks cease to be worth it?

5. If you chose not to immigrate to the US illegally because it was illegal and dangerous, what kind of prospects would you have for rising out of Third World poverty in your home nation?

So, what the situation really boils down to is that poverty is what's driving most of the illegal immigration to the US. After all, I suspect there are proportionately a lot fewer illegals here from, say, Switzerland or Sweden ;-)

ArmyBrat, why is it that in your response to Emily, and several follow-up posts, you only refer to the white couple as "Americans"?

Unless you are native American, you're a immigrant. We all came from some place else, so get off you racism high horse. Your an immigrant too.

Mehitabel I think you are right on.

Whether you agree or not with views posted here, do you find this discussion interesting and helpful? I do.

I don't agree with illegal immigration for a number of reasons, but one thing that sticks in my mind is my experience living in southern Arizona. A few years back, the news in that area was that many local hospitals had to shut down or cut back services because of illegal immigrants (and uninsured) using the hospitals and not being able to pay. This put a strain on the local health system and increased reliance on the hospitals in the bigger cities. I also saw friends' property that was littered with trash and human excrement from 'immigrants' crossing the border. Yes, the desire to improve one's life is universal, I don't deny that. However, people who cannot/will not use the proper channels to immigrate legally make a mockery of everyone.

Whether you agree or not with views posted here, do you find this discussion interesting and helpful? I do.

Posted by: leslie | August 14, 2007 11:48 AM

No. This is hardly a new topic in America. It's the same old yadda, yadda.

pATRICK:

"Actually, PP it takes some nerve to cry racism at every turn and pretend that everyone is just a nice middle class person. Illegal immigrants are generally poorer and do things like this.

Posted by: pATRICK | August 14, 2007 10:33 AM"

pATRICK - please back up your statements.
1) "it takes some nerve to cry racism at every turn" (please provide a source or a proof point)
2) "it takes some nerve to...pretend that everyone is just a nice middle class person" (please cite a reference for someone pretending this)
3) "Illegal immigrants...do things like this. " (please provide a source or a proof point that shows illegal immigrants do "things like this" more than legal immigrants or american born citizens)

I am not saying you are wrong. That remains to be seen. I am just requesting data to back up your claims.

kimverb makes an important point, namely that our southern border states, simply by virtue of their location, bear a disproportionate share of the NATIONAL burden on social infrastructure. This is a good example of a situation that's not best handled on the local level, but rather federally.

Hmmmm..."Pooping all over the lawn..." sort of like what Bababooey does on this forum. Would someone please take a pooper scooper and baggie to him?

People complaining about "illegal Latinos" hogging the space in Northern Virginia parks may wish to add "renters" to the list. Northern Virgnia parks are largely funded through property taxes. If you are not a homeowner, or if you don't own an expensive vehicle, then you're not paying for yoru use of the parks.

jkpage:

"ArmyBrat, why is it that in your response to Emily, and several follow-up posts, you only refer to the white couple as "Americans"?"

This, sir or madam, is a lie.

Please cite one instance where I did this.

In the original response to Emily's post, I called the couple in question a "US-born caucasian couple". That is indeed what they were. I specifically did not use the term "American" because Americans can be US-born or they can be foreign-born.

Every subsequent use of the term "American" by me was in quotes in response to the way Emily used it, where she cited "immigrants" vs "Americans". It in no way referred to the discussion of my neighbors.

To repeat: jkpage, your post is a lie.

"If you are not a homeowner... then you're not paying for yoru use of the parks."

Actually, renters pay their landlords' property taxes as part of their rent.

I have to agree with newhere that discussion today is neither interesting nor helpful. People have already made up their minds on the topic of both legal and illegal immigration. It is a polarizing topic. Why do you think Congress recently failed to pass the immigration reform package? Both sides are passionate about their positions, and there is no room for compromise. I highly doubt anyone's position will change as a result of today's blog discussion.

I think we have 2 different discussions on immigration, and they often get mixed up.

One topic is illegal immigration. I don't think anyone is for that. The solution, of course, might be different according to your particular viewpoint (close the border and deport illegals versus amnesty and make legal immigration more accessible or something in between). But whatever you think must be done, I tend to believe that no one is saying that the current situation with illegal immigration is good for anyone, including illegal immigrants.

The second discussion is more nuanced, and stems from the idea that many of the trappings of immigration, including things like crowded housing conditions, cultural differences, overburdened infrastructure, crime, poverty, etc. are primarily caused by illegal immigrants. The truth is that these things are part and parcel of immigration itself, and not solely the result of illegal immigration. So the movement to close off certain services to illegal immigrants will not really fix the conditions that people are complaining about, and instead, result in stigmatizing immigrants in general, even when they are legal, and even when they are American. Wrongly assuming that certain conditions are the direct result of illegal immigration will solve no problems, and will only serve to scapegoat groups of people who are different, whether racially or culturally. If you want to fix the problems inherent in immigration, such as poverty, lack of education, and crime, then you have to find other measures that strive to include and educate immigrants, rather than shutting them out and isolating them even further.

Here's another question: What do you do if your child makes friends with a classmate who's an illegal immigrant?

"People complaining about "illegal Latinos" hogging the space in Northern Virginia parks may wish to add "renters" to the list. Northern Virgnia parks are largely funded through property taxes. If you are not a homeowner, or if you don't own an expensive vehicle, then you're not paying for yoru use of the parks."

Since you don't seem to have a handle on the use of sarcasm, I can't tell if your post is serious or not. But please tell me it's not. Surely you have just a basic knowledge of economics. Property taxes are reflected in rental rates genius.

Catlady, to play the devil's advocate, lots of crime in this country and in other countries is born of poverty. The difference is that we don't look the other way when people are selling drugs or stealing. But we allow illegal immigrants a free pass. This is a double standard and completely unfair.

I understand the poverty in some of the places immigrants are coming from. I've seen it with my own eyes. It is not the people's fault--it is the fault of the government for not providing for its people. However, there are legal chanels to enter the U.S. When there are legal channels to success, the illegal channels are wrong. I think we need to reform our immigration policy to make it easier for legal immigration, but for now it's what we have to work with.

Okay, now I really have to work.

There is nothing wrong with immigration - in fact, that is one of the greatest aspects of American society - the great "melting pot" and we are lucky to live in a diverse society.

ILLEGAL immigration is a different story, not because illegal immigrants are less moral or worse individuals than Americans, but because generally speaking they do not pay taxes and do not have access to health insurance and drain our social services, etc. But am I in the minority in that I don't blame the individuals as much as I blame employers who knowingly employ illegal immigrants and weak government policies that don't allow for temporary work visas for certain types of labor?

Let's face it, we are all to blame to a certain extent because we want cheap products and accordingly we need cheap labor to produce those products. But at the same time we want these products to be made by "Americans" - not illegal immigrants or shipped overseas. At some point, something is going to have to give.

mehitabel, how old is the child in question? And how do you know the friend is an illegal immigrant?

I'm asking seriously, because I think my answer differs based on whether my kid is 6 or 18 (because my kid has different levels of understanding).

The other question is because if I don't know the friend is an illegal immigrant, the question might be moot.

The answer is NOT "run report this to the authorities and get this family deported."

"Here's another question: What do you do if your child makes friends with a classmate who's an illegal immigrant?"

Truly, how would you know. Would you ask to see the kid's green card of birth certificate before a play date?

bababooey666 | August 14, 2007 12:05 PM

Wait a minute did bababooey666 actually post something that makes sense?!

Meesh, the main problem with is that it takes so long (sometimes 8-10 years) to get clearance to immigrate to the US legally -- while life (and the poverty that the applicants are suffering) goes on in the meantime. Too often a potential legal immigrant would simply run out of patience with the present system.

I liked clare's post because it focuses on the GOOD things about immigration. I always hear about the bad things-- the depleted resources, the increased crime, etc. that it is wonderful to hear someone voice appreciation for the various immigration communities. If I had heard about this plan to limit park use to citizens and legal immigrants, I probably would have been opposed to it anyway. But my opposition would have been rooted more in the "hassle" and delay that I would expect such a scheme would cause ME (i.e., "great-- now I have to remember to bring a passport to prove citizenship laong with the bug spray and sunscreen"), not so much because of the greater loss-- the bigger picture that Clare's post paints.

So many people seem to complain about immigrants failing to integrate into American society-- but how can this actually happen if the can't participate in our "Typical American" activities like going to the beach with the family for a picnic?

"Truly, how would you know. Would you ask to see the kid's green card of birth certificate before a play date?"

C'mon Emily. Haven't you been reading some of these posts?? If the kid is a little on the brown side, and if he sounds ominously like Speedy Gonzales, then he's an illegal immigrant. My kid was playing with a small child one day and as soon as that child uttered "Andale! Andale!" I was on the phone to CSIS. You can't be too careful!!!!

Bababooey,
Of course your're right.

By the way, I retract my post yesterday saying your were an alter ego of CBC. Sorry for slandering you.

Oops. Make that the USCIS. Would have been easier if they had stuck to INS.

"Truly, how would you know. Would you ask to see the kid's green card of birth certificate before a play date?"

How to make friends for Dummies.

Actually, PP it takes some nerve to cry racism at every turn and pretend that everyone is just a nice middle class person.

Posted by: pATRICK | August 14, 2007 10:33 AM

pATRICK's posts PROVE that everyone is not a nice middle class person. Speaking of fear, pATRICK is afraid to admit that "nice" and "middle class" are not synonyms. A little more Sunday School attendance might teach him that Jesus directed us to look at what is in a person's heart rather than his bank balance in order to determine whether his character was as it should be.

Down here in NC there is a growing awareness and resentment of the illegal immigrants in the state. Several of the small, rural farming communities have found their original population, in fact, outnumbered with a sudden influx of immigrants (illegal, legal, who knows?), and it is causing no small amount of problems.

Just in the last few months here in Raleigh, in fact, there have been several prostitution rings broken up involving illegal immigrants, at least 4 crashes with fatalities involving drunk immigrants (again, legal, illegal, who knows?), and an upsweep in crime of various types involving the Latino population.

Every day in the paper or on TV you can read/see stories involving suspects with Hispanic names; again, legal, illegal, who knows?

At the same time, however, you look around at all the construction sites, and what do you see? Hispanic men, building houses, businesses, landscaping, whatever. Legal? Illegal? Who knows? Same with lawn care businesses; our subdivision employs one that has a team of Hispanic men to maintain the common areas; are they illegal? Who knows?

Now go look at the farms; NC has a HUGE population of migrant farm workers who tend and pick the food every one of us buy and eat from the grocery stores. Most of them are illegal; the farmers pay them cash and provide them subsistence housing so they stay out of the government's eye, and they're willing to work for a lot less than a legal citizen would accept.

Take a look at the streets in Raleigh; there are a LOT of businesses that have multi-language signs, both English and Spanish, because they know there's a growing Hispanic population here and they want to cater to them. Some do more than that, in fact; when the ONLY sign in the storefront is in Spanish, it's obvious who their customers are.

What am I saying? I guess what I'm saying is this country does have an illegal immigration problem, but building a fence isn't going to solve it. Neither is conducting house to house searches, or asking for "papers" to prove your citizenship, or just opening our arms and saying "come one, come all" either.

It's a difficult issue but one that needs to discussed openly and honestly by all parties to try and find something that will work.

Emily wrote: "Would you ask to see the kid's green card of birth certificate before a play date?"

LOL!

But seriously, Emily, you hit on a crucial point, namely re anti-immigrant backlash in general. Legal immigrants are often automatically suspected of being illegals just because they're immigrants, because they resemble the illegals.

An employer might decide to avoid the risks of hiring illegals by not hiring any immigrants whatsoever, or anyone at all of a particular ethnicity or race associated in the public mind with illegal immigration -- even if that person is a legal resident, or a native or naturalized American citizen.

Extending this logic, I worry that some children will be carefully taught (to cite the song in "South Pacific") by their "good American" parents to avoid making friends with children of backgrounds publicly associated with illegal immigration, whether a small child playing with a fellow preschooler or a schoolmate, or a teenager dating a classmate.

I am appalled at the bigotry so often seen in these blogs. I do understand frustrations with cultural differences, but they are just as pervasive between north and south, east and west, as between north america and south america.

My husband is an illegal immigrant. Guess what? He lives in Your middle class neighborhood, mows the grass, keeps the music down, works 10 hours a day, AND HE PAYS TAXES!! Imagine working illegally, paying into social security, medicaid, etc and perhaps NEVER seeing that money again. He pays your retirement people! As do many illegals. They OWN homes!

My husband cannot change his status to become a legal resident because the laws have changed. Used to be you could pay $1,000's in fines and wait here. Now you can't. You can't pay and you have to leave for 10 YEARS! I love him too much, so if it comes down to it, you'll loose an
"American" citizen. But really, there is no difference between him and me; except a piece of paper.

I know plenty of US Citizens that I'd like to have deported.

No one mentions all those people here legally. Who have to jump through hoops, pay loads of money, and they're sitting and waiting for the next step in the process. But somehow we want to just allow people here, who broke the law, to stay? To get some sort of visa? Above those who have been following the rules for years? That, somehow, doesn't seem fair.

And when people say: but those are jobs Americans (or others here legally) don't want - then I say: Well, then pay what people are willing to do the job for - so our prices will go up, but they will reflect more of reality. Cause now, yeah, the prices for certain things might be lower, but you are certainly paying for it, by having illegals using the system for things (like, breaking the law - i.e., criminal acts once they are here).

You broke the law in coming here, we've been lax in enforcing it, but hey - everyone knew the day might come when they'd be kicked out of this country. There is wonderful diversity everywhere one turns here - by people here legally - really. And it should be celebrated, certainly.

stilldoinhim -- So you know plenty of US Citizens that I'd like to have deported? Too bad, guess what? They're LEGAL. Your husband is not. When the day comes (and it is coming) when he disappears and you don't know where he's gone and weeks later are contacted by him from his country of origin, maybe you'll realize what a stupid decision you made. Don't look for sympathy here. You are aiding and abetting a criminal. Face it.

Today's discussion has been at least implicitly focusing on impoverished illegal immigrants from south of the border.

However, there are also illegal immigrants to the US from other parts of the world. Canadians can simply drive or walk across our very long, sometimes porous northern border. They are typically undiscernible in appearance from Americans (read: WASP), and if like most Canadians they hail from within 100 miles of the US border, their accent and culture may not differ too greatly from those of our most northerly Americans. They're often here to work.

Illegal immigrant Europeans typically arrive in the US as airline passengers, entering as vacationing tourists, then obtaining employment and overstaying their deadline (some don't even initially intend to stay, except then they land jobs). Even if English isn't their native language, these illegal European immigrants may speak it a little (or more), have probably had at minimum a JHS or HS education, and are likely literate at least in their native language, which makes acquiring English easier.

Illegal immigrants from Asia may or may not be formally-educated as well as the illegal European tourists, but they also often enter the US (often with a west coast POE, due to geographic proximity) via jet as tourists, then get a job and stay on.

Not the usual illegal immigrant stereotypes.

"American" citizen. But really, there is no difference between him and me; except a piece of paper.

That's a good one. Keep telling yourself that.

I think illegal immigration works well enough for both immigrants and US citizens that it will continue long into the future.

It works for the immigrants who make a better living for themselves, even though they are treated as second class citizens. Eventually their offspring will become voting citizens and strengthen their cultural influence in their community.

It works for the consuming citizen who directly benefits fro