first!

"we've got three soccer teams, three basketball teams, one pediatric practice and two speech/reading therapists."

Leslie, I expect you and the kids will be talking with therapists for the rest of your lives.

Everyone gets out of my way where ever I swim. It is like I have a flashing blue light or something!

That would be the other Mako who said that about Leslie, not this Mako.

Who is the editor of the Style section of the WaPo?

Hillary, who cares?

I am so happy for you pATRICK First!

(Is this like the America First crowd from the 1930's?)

Hillary, who cares?

I have a question for the Style editor.

So, what's your question?

I don't think Leslie's kids sound overbooked. Soccer's one season, basketball's another. What's the big deal?

I'm really interested in today's conversation. I can't really speak from experience here because my two youngest are so little and by the time my stepdaughter lived with us, she could drive herself to her sports/activities. But this fall we'll have one kid in soccer and one in a dance class overlapping every Saturday, so it means Mom gets one and Dad gets the other. Two kids in swim lessons, too, which for me gets the same priority as a doctor's appointment. Swimming in our family is not an optional skill.

Are there a lot of moms and dads dealing with traveling teams? I've got friends who get up at an ungodly hour on Saturdays to get her boys to hockey, friends whose kids can be up to 3 hours away to play league soccer not associated with a school. I didn't know anyone on a traveling team as a kid outside of jv and varsity sports for the high school. Is this a trend, and is it burgeoning or dying? :)

Each of my kids is allowed to have only one activity at a time. They spend the rest of their afternoons running around the neighborhood with friends-getting plenty of fresh air and exercise. My kids are in 3 different schools this year and we do have a carpool for one, but my oldest walks and I drive the two littlest myself. It's really not so bad

Each of my kids is allowed to have only one activity at a time. They spend the rest of their afternoons running around the neighborhood with friends-getting plenty of fresh air and exercise. My kids are in 3 different schools this year and we do have a carpool for one, but my oldest walks and I drive the two littlest myself. It's really not so bad

"It's been three years since I traded my full-time, in-the-office job for 100 percent flexible hours working from home. , , , The big benefit to our family is that I'm far more available to my kids, ages 10, 8 and 5. . . .our kids are in the same school . . ."

Posted by Leslie Morgan Steiner '87 | August 22, 2007; 7:00 AM ET |

What worked for us was a seven-seat Dodge Caravan. This van is big enough to carry our three children -- who were aged 5, 3 and 1 month when the oldest started kindergarten -- as well as three others from the neighborhood who all went to the same school, just like Leslie's children. It helped that the school, which all of them attended from kindergarten through high school, was a seven-minute drive from our home, which made things easier when they had basketball games or Thursday study sessions in the evenings. These days, there is only one child left who does not yet have his driver's license. I drop him off at school around 6:30 AM on my way to work. His mother picks him up in the Dodge Caravan at 10:30 PM to come home for the night.

"Have you re-arranged your professional life to tackle this aspect of work/life balance? " (Leslie)

Our family, just like Leslie's, benefited greatly by having a mother who stayed home and was "far more available" to our kids than if she had been out laying track for the railroad or driving an eighteen-wheeler all day or visiting clients to adjust fire-insurance losses. I did not have to re-arrange my professional life at all. Of course, YMMV.

Wait, Matt, didn't we decide on this blog that YMMV means "You make me vomit?" :)

Hey, don't be dissing Mommy Vans! If we did not have Mommy Vans, we could never have the Creepy Van (tm) c/w HG.

Four kids, four schools. Of course, starting tomorrow one of them is college, so that's a little easier.

You just have to plan out the logistics. Carpools, yes - especially for DS at his high school, which is quite a drive.

Afterschool/weekend activities are limited to one major one per child, plus other minor ones. "Major" means a couple of times per week without flexibility; "minor" means doesn't take up too much time and can be missed if necessary.

The big drawback is that it's very rare that DW and I are both at the same activity - we divide up who goes where. I usually get the sports (because I seem to get talked into coaching them all); she gets the music-related activities (because I can't carry a tune in a basket).

WorkingMomX, travel sports seem to be on the upswing. Our softball program is cutting down on the in-house/recreational program and expanding the number of travel teams. The philosophy seems to be that if you want to play on a team in high school you have to make the commitment. I do know of kids playing on travel teams in three different sports; that's a little more of a commitment than I'm willing to let my kids make.

And here's to the Mommy Van/Daddy Van - ours is an 8-passenger model so we can haul other kids in the carpool.

Question for the carpooling parents out there ... does anyone make their kids ride the school provided buses to get to school anymore?

And Leslie, 10 and 8 year olds are certainly old enough to ride buses by themselves.

"How do you handle the juggling act of managing your kids' after-school activities?"

First, we chose a neighborhood where everything doesn't require getting into a car. This was a dealbreaker for me (my husband didn't get it at the time, but he does now). Even if I were at home all day, I still wouldn't want to spend every afternoon chauffeuring someone somewhere. We're 1/2 mile from both the elementary and high school (and while my daughter is in Montessori school, my son is in daycare 1/2 mile away from her, so it's still only one trip).

Second, we don't do much scheduled weekday stuff. We've tried, and it's just too hectic. So gymnastics and swimming are on the weekend. We also only do one thing at a time (swimming doesn't count, since mommy and daddy both require that).

I imagine things will get more complex when they get older. When I was growing up, it used to be that by the time you were ready to play after-school sports, you were also old enough to get yourself there and back. But now it seems like kids have to start at 6,7,8 if they even want a chance to play in high school -- and you can't just tell your 7-yr-old to ride her bike to soccer practice.

So I don't know what we'll do, but I suspect it'll be a balancing act, like everything else. I'm not going to sign my kids up for a lot of after-school stuff just because everyone else is doing it -- I'm a big believer in unstructured time and learning to entertain yourself, so if they're happy with that, then that's fine by me. But if they really really really get into something in particular, then I want them to have that opportunity. So if that happens, we'll try to shift our work schedules around, maybe ask my mom to help a bit, since she already picks them up 1-2x/week.

I've found that getting to know the parents of my kids friends is really helpful. Ditto for teammates. That way if someone is really behind schedule (or caught in some hideous road closure), it's still possible for the kids to get to their practices.

I practice reciprocity, naturally. And when I can't, I make a point of bribing other parents with goodies from The Candy Bar (in Mount Airy, MD--help a neat little new business thrive!). The white birch beer, vanilla cream and orange cream sodas, in particular, buy a lot of parental good will. So do the espresso cordials!

The kids do one sport per season. I love it when they both do the same sport AND have practices at the same time, or at least nearby. You don't always get that lucky though.

My rule is not to have so many things scheduled that one parent can't handle them all. Not saying the other parent shouldn't, but that way you know you won't drown in a Sea of Committments. Yours.

I chatted with a gentlemen at the pump a few weeks ago. He has a Jetta diesel station wagon that gets 50mpg! I WANT it. I can envision kids, dogs and stuff in that easily. I wonder if I could get a privacy divider too? THAT would make it a family vehicle.

"What's that I hear? The kids trying to kill on another? Hmm, no blood shed, I think I'll raise the glass and let them work things out." Swigs birch beer from the glass bottle. Aah.

I hate it when I misspell words. I should've previewed that post. It's like nails on chalkboard. Is there some trick to going back and editing?

"And Leslie, 10 and 8 year olds are certainly old enough to ride buses by themselves"

Buses in the city? No way, I am with you Leslie. We have to drive everywhere so I don't have this problem. My daughter is only in soccer and only has it once a week. I think what is really hard about all the activities is preparing a healthy meal for everyone.

School buses--yes! My daughter, who will be in first grade this Fall, loved to ride the bus with her friends when she started Kindergarten. Now, it helps that ours is the last stop before her school less than 1/4 mile away. I think riding the bus is teaching her independence and gives her some social time with friends, waiting on the playground by the bus stop and on the bus itself.

Purposely chosen location near school--we "traded in" a larger home further away for a smaller one w/in walking distance when the weather is nice--and yes, when my work schedule allows--a short bus trip away, and the kiss-n-ride drop off is also on my route to work.

As for balancing after-school activities, I've given my daughter a choice of one activity per school term and she understands there are parameters we need to live by: I will leave work early 1x/week for an afterschool activity, but weekends are fair game; the cost can't be prohibitive (no private riding lessons, for example), etc.

sknyluv

We live just outside the school bus service zone. In other words, we live too close to school so bus service is not provided for us.

Beyond that, riding the school bus isn't what it used to be 20 or 30 years ago. There is a lot of nastiness on the bus that the bus drivers seem unwilling or unable to stop. The school boards also seem unable or unwilling to do much about it also. There are many reasons for this, one being that the cost of transporation is so expensive that kids of all ages are riding the same bus at the same time.

Scarry, I'm with you on the meal preparation. Leslie, I wish there was some way we could dedicate a day to recipe exchange for meals that are easy to prepare and healthy.

sknyluv

Yes, our kids all rode school buses. The only exceptions were oldest DD, who drove the 16-year old Ford Escort (RIP) the two miles to high school during her senior year; and DS, who goes to a private high school that's 15 miles away and thus carpools.

Once they get past about second grade, they tend to hate the school bus because it's crowded, noisy, and kids don't always behave. And bus drivers either demand assigned seats and absolute silence, or they don't care about what's happening and thus let all sorts of behavior go on (yes, including sexual activity on the high school bus).

Middle DD's biggest thrill last year as a high school freshman was that she didn't have to ride the bus because big sister drove her. Now that big sis is in college and the car's dead, anyway, she's back on the school bus. We're the first stop in the morning so the bus comes at 6:35 am, and gets her to school 40 minutes later. She's so not looking forward to that.

"Leslie, I wish there was some way we could dedicate a day to recipe exchange for meals that are easy to prepare and healthy."

Oow! Yes, please! A recipe swap!

WorkingMomX

We had chicken on the grill yesterday. It was good and fast. THen I just made some green beans and rolls. Fred is so right about the school bus.

Son is in kindergarten, no bus in the AM, but bus in the afternoon - so carpooling in the morning may happen eventually. I'm happy that since there's a kindergarten annex, he's onlyon the bus with other kids his age.

As for activities, I think it will eventually be one during hte week and one on weekends. We're Jewish, but not overly observant, however, I would like to not have activities scheduled on Saturdays - he has to attend some services anyway. So I started a Sunday soccer league and hope to do that for tball in the spring. I wille ventually sign him up for something during the week, but with the adjustment to kindergarten, it won't be soon.

In any event, if I had to spend the day in the car, I would move. When I was in third grade I was walking to and from school by myself (before that, it was with a sister). Mom wanted no part of that (and she never worked). People seem to be quite overprotective of allowing their kids to do for themselves - it's weird to me. Of course, part of the problem these days is that most elementary schools can't be walked to - what a shame.

All my activities, save for skating, which I didn't do long, I could walk to - theater, dance, etc. Sports, had I done any, would have been with the school. I am not going to be driving several hours each way, however for traveling stuff. That's insane. Yes, I had a friend in high school who was training for the olympics, so she was up at 5 or so in the AM, and her mom took her before school and she went after school to train (she ended up going to trials, but not olympics, but got a college scholarship out of it). My SIL had a similar training schedule with the gymnastics (won her entrance to ivy league school). BUT - that typically came from the kids having the desire. I am pretty sure there aren't *that* many kids out there with olympic ambitions....

School bus! As soon as she's old enough for public school, she is riding Big Yellow. Plus, no more than one activity at a time that requires driving.

I would love the recipe swap. I've not got about 10 easy meals in the rotation, and it's not chicken fingers and mac-n-cheese! Woo hoo.

hillary- Obviously, you're been sarcastic about the recipe swap. Some of us pride ourselves on our cooking ability. Some people eat out of a cardboard box. Perhaps you think cooking is below you. Maybe you only eat out and weigh 300 pounds. Or maybe you don't eat at all and only drink and smoke cigarettes. Cooking is a lost art for most families. Mine eats better than most.

atb

"hillary- Obviously, you're been sarcastic about the recipe swap."

Is there a law against sarcasm? You're pretty defensive about a lack of interest in a topic.

Leslie wrote: "My children are too young to take the bus or subway alone"

Hogwash! Your oldest is 10 already, and unless s/he has a learning disability, a child that age IS old enough to know how to ride the bus or subway alone. (I know this because I often had to, and I knew plenty of other urban kids who did, too).

It's very easy, Leslie. You just take your child on a couple of practice runs beforehand, making sure you take time to answer all of his/her questions about paying the fare, where to get on/off, and showing your child what route to walk to/from the stop, etc., etc. Re subway riding, make sure your child knows not to hesitate to go to the information/help desk if there are any problems.

And, yes, Leslie, your 10-year-old is old enough to shepherd younger siblings on bus or subway rides.

I suspect some parents' aversion to letting their children ride public transit alone really has more to do with social-class snobbery than authentic concerns.

I've been in a ballet carpool for years now with two daughters, and this year I'm not carpooling for one daughter because of carpool issues. There are some unwritten rules that weren't mentioned in the article:

1) Be on time and if you are running late, call.
2) When dropping off children at home, wait until the child is actually going into the home before pulling away. There's no good reason to drop a child off on the corner at night.
3) If you have issues with the schedule, don't wait until the year is over to complain to everyone.
4) Save your last minute changes for real emergencies.

Clarification: When I wrote about buses (10:18 AM), I was referring to public transit buses (student discount fare with ID), not school buses, which our district didn't have except for school field trips.

Hillary, did you used to have a different name here on the "On Balance" blog? I noticed that you recently mentioned a veteran who hasn't posted (at least under his regular name) for some time.

Once I hit middle school, the rule was that I had to find my own carpool or I couldn't participate. True, I didn't do sports, but this held true for school plays, newspaper, etc, until my senior year when the school allowed us to drive ourselves.

Why not involve the kids in setting up carpools????

I do agree about school buses being iffy....when I was 12 (1987....) I was beaten up on the school bus. In an affluent residential suburban neighborhood (in York, PA). In the third seat back. Full view of the driver, who never reacted.

It wasn't defensive, just dismissive. As in, most of your comments can be easily dismissed, as they have no added value, other than sarcasm. No, go ahead, call me a cheerleader.

OK to ride city bus at the age of 10? ...and supervise younger siblings too?

Sorry, If it is not ok to have children babysit others before the age of twelve. I can't see it.

My kids ride the chees crates to school but usually walk home since the schools are not that far away.

I suspect some parents' aversion to letting their children ride public transit alone really has more to do with social-class snobbery than authentic concerns.

Posted by: mehitabel | August 22, 2007 10:18 AM

Maybe some aversion is based on this. OTOH, there are plenty of authentic concerns about personal safety when riding public transit. All cities and public transit systems are not alike. One approach does not fit all. In our area, public transit is not well-developed, there are no shelters - it's not even clear where to stand safely and wait for the bus. NO kids, of any socioeconomic class, ride public transit here. In the balance between safety and independence, everyone has to make the best call, but 15 would be the youngest I'd permit my kids to ride public transit without an adult. If I was in the District, based on my observations of ambience and crime around bus stops, I would permit my younger teen to ride the Metro, but still wouldn't have her on a city bus alone.

What sense does it make to check the sex offender registry to determine whether known pedophiles live in the neighborhood only to put your 10 year old on a city bus by himself?

yes, ride city bus at age 10. What is really the big deal? I just don't understand. If the kid can read, he/she can see which bus to take, typically, if they're riding the bus a lot - they would get a pass (in NYC, there's no bus system for schools - all school children get free passes for busses/subways).
If they know where they live - what's the big deal? My 5 YO knows where he lives, so hopefully, the 10 YO knows. If not, there are bigger issues.

My sister, four years older, was responsible for walking me to and from school in first and second grades. So I was 6/7 she was 10/11. What is the big deal? She was going anyway. What is up with not giving our kids responsibilities? They can dress like they're grown ups but g-d forbid we give them any responsibility! What, do you want your kids living with you when they're 30?
It used to be that families consisted of 8 or more kids. Everyone had to help out. Why is thatsuch a bad thing?

mehitabel

Meow. I've been here since the first week.

atb
"It wasn't defensive, just dismissive. As in, most of your comments can be easily dismissed, as they have no added value, other than sarcasm. No, go ahead, call me a cheerleader."

It was a fairly long statement to be dismissive. I anxiously await the ADDED VALUE of your comments. Rah!

Posted by: gcoward | August 22, 2007 10:40 AM
Hate to disagree with the pussycat, but DITTO.

gcoward and atlmom1234, although seemingly contradictory, both make good points.

For children growing up in urban areas with well-established public transit systems, riding the bus or subway alone by age 10 is a reasonable solution to some transportation challenges.

In less-populated regions or areas without established bus-stops or even safe spots to stand while waiting, or if the service is infrequent, legitimate concerns can arise, however.

The parent has to decide what's best for the child, balancing safety concerns with the need

gcoward and atlmom1234, although seemingly contradictory, both make good points.

For children growing up in urban areas with well-established public transit systems, riding the bus or subway alone by age 10 is a reasonable solution to some transportation challenges.

In less-populated regions or areas without established bus-stops or even safe spots to stand while waiting, or if the service is infrequent, legitimate concerns can arise, however.

The parent has to decide what's best for the child, balancing safety concerns with the need to teach the child self-reliance and independence as age-appropriate.

(Oops, end of message got truncated on the first "submit").

Posted by: hillary | August 22, 2007 10:45 AM
The mystery deepens, why would hillary not use or tell her former name?

mehitabel

No way in hell would I let my kids ride public transportation in New Orleans. People have been literally murdered on it in the past.

Whene we were in Wash D.C. a couple weeks ago, we rode the Metro everywhere but that public transit system is much more developed than in other cities that I have been in.

Hillary, what did your name used to be? Mine was catlady.

Maybe I'm naieve, but i dont understand how the kids are too young for riding the bus. Is she talking about METRO or just the regular school bus?

I know several mothers who drop their kids off at school although there is a perfectly fine school bus that comes into the neighborhood. This has always puzzled me.

mehitabel: Of course, I wouldn't argue that with you at all.

And, clearly, the world is a different place than when my mom was taking the subway in NYC all hours of the day and night (and she lived inthe bronx, not manhattan, so that was a long ride). Of course, the subway NOW is more safe than it was when I was in high school. And yet, I took it quite a bit (lived on LI).

But, I get really tired of parents complaining about stuff and then you ask them questions and it's really that they don't want th ekids to grwo up, not that the kids aren't capable. We chose where we live BECAUSE you can walk places. If I had to live int he suburbs where I had to drive everywhere (and let me tell you, in Atlanta, you pretty much need a car) and it would take me an hour to get milk, I'd shoot myself.
When my kids are older, and they want to do stuff, they will be required to have a plan before we sign up for activities, whether it's that we carpool, or they can walk (really - they could walk to many activities) or bike or whatever. Even if I were a SAHM, I wouldn't be in my car all the time. I hate hte car as it is, I wouldn't want to spend more time in it.

My mom was SAHM, rarely home after school - we all had to find our own ways around. And I dont' think that was an issue when we bought our house, my parents didn't think about that aspect much, I'm sure. But we definitely thought about it when we bought our house, I assure you.

Question for pATRICK and gcoward,

At what ages WOULD you let your children ride public transit alone in your regions of the country (since neither of you is in the DC area)? What instructions would you give them in order to stay safe and feel confident? Would you feel differently if you lived in the DC area?

As Fred rightly points out (10:54 AM), one region might be much safer and better-functioning than another.

I suspect some parents' aversion to letting their children ride public transit alone really has more to do with social-class snobbery than authentic concerns.

Actually, mine comes from my own experince on the metro and the buses. I seem to attract all the freaks, like drunk guy who needs a ride, or sit to close to me person. I really just don't think it would be safe for a kid to ride the subway at 10. Who would step in if someone started messing with them or grabbed them. I have to say this and if any of you work for metro, then I am sorry, but my experince with the metro people was, "you are on your own." I also never really saw a lot of small children on the metro either.

May I bring a different cultural perspective? In France where I come from, I know of very few families, if at all, who subscribe to the American way regarding afterschool activities. Kids there do things after school, but not to the extent they do here in the US, and parents are not solicited so much as they are here. There is a lot less chauffeuring back and forth of the kids. I have not really looked into the whys and hows. It is just something I have observed.

American parents have fallen into the illusion that cramming activities into their children lives is the only way to go. I beg to differ. I also cringe at the thought of all the CO2 being released with all these mommy vans driving around nonstop.

I also need to confess that I was one of those mommies too, until fairly recently when my daughters starting driving themselves. The societal pressure is just irresistible.

marguerite manteau-rao
mother, and green blogger
http://lamarguerite.wordpress.com
"The Daily Sins of a Green Girl Wannabe"

Posted by: mehitabel | August 22, 2007 10:59 AM
unfortunately NEVER. I would not wish public transport on my worst enemy in texas.

That article in the HOME section was a waste of paper. What was a bunch of whiny upper class mothers fretting about getting their kids to tony private schools doing in the Home section anyway. It belonged in Style or Metro. There are valid conerns about logistics in getting kids and grownups to where they need to be as we've let our infrastructure wither on the vine, be it public transportation, road capacity or even public school buses.

That would have been a more worthwhile disucssion than the private school moms.

in Atlanta, it really is a class issue. We have let our lack of mass transit persist because people don't want to ride on mass transit with 'those' people and think: why don't they just get a car (well, because everyone sitting in their car just doesn't really create a city many people want to live in, really).

In a few years, rather than driving my kids to their grandparents, d*** straight I would prefer to put one/two of them on the train and have grandma/grandpa pick them up. Why not? If they know where to get off, what's the big deal? They'll learn to be independent, etc. My in laws WILL HAVE A COW. The train goes to the airport yet my in laws won't take it, they'd rather sit in traffic driving people to and from the airport (like, their kids, each other, etc - I put my dad on the train, and it's no big deal - and he's from OUT OF TOWN) HUGE waste - of time, energy, money, whatever.

Would you feel differently if you lived in the DC area?

No, your murder rate and crime rate are through the roof.

Back to the school bus discussion for a minute: my biggest concern with having my children ride the school bus is that it doesn't have seat belts. I don't understand at all why this should be. I've heard all kinds of stories about how much it would cost, but it still seems like it would be money well spent to me. It would keep the kids safe and in their seats.

My concern about having them NOT ride the school bus is that I don't want my kids growing up so "pampered" and supervised every second of their lives. A lot of the great memories I have of my childhood do not feature my parents or anyone's parents in any way. They weren't around as much as we parents are around our own kids. It's a delicate balance.

My kids, 11, 9 and 7, are in different activities. Religious ed (all at the same time) is not an option. Oldest does karate, in which she has to attend at least 2 classes per week, but clases are offered 6 days a week, so we can be flexible. Middle and youngest both participate in travel cheerleading, on different teams, with different practice schedules. However the middle one has 3 kids on her team who live close, so we carpool for the 2 practices a week. The youngest has yet to get into a carpool, but we're working on it. The oldest also does Girl Scouts, and I'm a leader, so that's something we do together. And I changed my hours, so I work 6:30AM - 3PM so I can be home to shuttle the kids around. Hubby works 8:30-4, so he gets them up and ready for school, and when he gets home, he can help. He switched from a regular 9-5 job to being a teacher, so snow days and summer vacations are covered by him. His first full day of summer vacation I had so many phone calls about how our kids are driving him nuts, I had to calmly remind him how I was home with them for 8 years, and to deal with it. It got better, and I'm sure he's going to miss their time together when school starts again.

atlmom1234 wrote: "it's really that they don't want the kids to grwo up, not that the kids aren't capable."

I was thinking that exact same thing myself, atlmom1234, but didn't have the courage to say it!

With the proviso that we're discussing regions where public transit is plentiful and reasonably safe -- I suspect some parents just plain don't want to give up being helicopter parents hovering over their children rather than teaching them gradually how to develop independence and adult life-skills (of which riding mass transit is but one). Sooner or later, though, the kids' friends will start to make fun of them for being such a big baby that they still have to be chauffeured everywhere by mommy or daddy.

Our eldest (4) will walk to school with his father in the morning and I'll pick up at end of aftercare at the school. teh programs looks very good this year- nice mix of free time, foreign languages and crafts. Aftercare ends at 6 pm. I've heard some say that it should go to 6:30 but that seems too long to me.

What is a speech/reading therapist? Is there something wrong with your kids?

On a somewhat related note, my mother taught me to read before I went to kindergarten. I wonder how many parents do that today. You know that time you spend watching television shows in the evening? How about spending it teaching your kid to read instead.

As for those who complain about driving their kids everywhere or restricting their activities because of it but won't let their kids ride public transportation, why don't you do something about it? Public transit is dangerous? Organize a group and FIX IT! Quit complaining and do something about the problem. This is America, not a dictatorship. Public transit exists for our USE. As someone else said, it is mostly snobbery, not danger, that prevents parents from making their kids use public transit.

And school buses? Don't have them? Well, maybe that's because you keep voting against levies that would raise the money to pay for a quality bus system.

"For it is of old rumour that the soul of the devil-bought hastes not from his charnel clay, but fats and instructs the very worm that gnaws; till out of corruption horrid life springs, and the dull scavengers of earth wax crafty to vex it and swell monstrous to plague it. Great holes secretly are digged where earth's pores ought to suffice, and things have learnt to walk that ought to crawl."
-- The mad Arab, Abdul Alhazred, quoted by H. P. Lovecraft in "The Festival."

The problem with 10-year-olds in D.C. walking to school or riding city buses is that degenerates and perverts who used to crawl in the shadows have learned to walk right out in broad daylight to grab innocent children. I walked to elementary school, rode city buses to junior high school, and rode the subway to high school. That was before the scavengers of sexual freedom waxed crafty to vex society and swelled monstrous to plague it. I know several families with eight or more children, and I can tell you that those children do not ride city buses to school.

yeah, mehitabel, my DH and I are already (well, since they were born!!!) having discussions about BUYING THEM A CAR when they get their licenses. I didn't get one, and he did. He's the oldest, and one of his responsibilities was to drive the younger ones around.

Well, where we live, one COULD take a public bus (we don't cause we have cars and parking's easy in the city). So, my thought is, way before they even think about cars, they will be able to figure out how to take a bus places, at least that's my goal. I mean, if they could ride their bike and/or take the bus, the world is their oyster. They feel independent, I've done my job, etc. I guess that's growing up near NYC, where I could just take a train to manhattan when I wanted and get around there once i was there. Easy as pie, independence at 14 - going to clubs in NYC by 16/17, etc. I mean, I know parents here who are freaked out by their kids taking a train to the big city with their friends for a concert - where the train is PACKED with many others who are there for hte same thing. It's not like it would be 2 AM (if it were open) and empty.

I'm wondering another thing...With all of these extracurricular activities, do your kids spend any time studying?

(You as in the general you.)

atlmom1234, It's not as thought we were thrown out into the streets to figure out for ourselves how to ride the bus to/from our destination. It doesn't take much time for a parent to teach a child how to take the bus to/from a specific destination -- a trial run or two suffices.

And for a train ride, once it's age-appropriate (note proviso!), I see nothing wrong with having the grandparents waiting for a grandchild at the other end of the trip. Along similar lines, didn't this blog have a column a few months ago re having children fly alone, and what precautions parents could take to make the trip successful?

JoshHamilton

Are you Josh Hamilton, the actor?

I know several mothers who drop their kids off at school although there is a perfectly fine school bus that comes into the neighborhood. This has always puzzled me.

Posted by: deena1946 | August 22, 2007 10:54 AM

Deena1946,

There is also the issue of the bus schedule. I know of some kids who ride the bus for 25-30 minutes each way for a school that is 6 minutes by car from the house.

Matt - you're FULL OF IT. There are NO more child abductions than there were when you were growing up. We just have news 24/7 now - so YOU KNOW ABOUT IT.
And let me tell you - years ago, people weren't put in jail as much as they are now for molesting kids - you know where they are because we just know MORE about EVERYTHING now. It's not that it's happening more - in fact, I believe it's happening LESS.

You're parents just didn't know as much about it. There were a couple of channels and that was IT

"Back to the school bus discussion for a minute: my biggest concern with having my children ride the school bus is that it doesn't have seat belts. I don't understand at all why this should be."

_______________________

WorkingMomX: the biggest reason this doesn't concern me is that the kids wouldn't stay in them anyway.

I hate to sound cynical, but it's tough enough for us to keep our teenagers in the back seat of the van buckled in, and we have (a) informants in the form of younger siblings who will rat out someone who has surreptitiously unbuckled; (b) lots of potential punishment options for those who don't behave ("if that seatbelt isn't buckled you're not driving for A WEEK!"); and (c) years of experience to know when and how someone's going to unbuckle. And it still happens.

So, picture the middle school bus. Thirty kids get on. How many will buckle themselves into available seat belts? Two, maybe three? Those who qualify as the class "goody two shoes"? Then, what kind of peer pressure will they face from those who aren't buckled in? And especially when it's more fun to not be buckled - it's easier to turn around and interact with others.

How will the driver - the only adult on the bus, remember - enforce the "you must be buckled in" rules? Does she have to stop every time a kid hollers "Joe's not buckled"? Can you see the driver trying to say "If you don't all buckle your seat belts, I'm pulling this bus over to the side!"? That will make the bus an hour late (which may be what the kids want) and elicit howls of protest from parents and schools.

No, I harbor no illusions about how widely seat belts on school buses would be used. Call me cynical, but I'd rather not waste the money.

hillary- You've got to be kidding me. You chose the I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I strategy? I generally discuss the topic, with some drift. So far I've seen you contribute nothing but comments on cheerleaders and Collin Farrel and pATRICK.

On topic, kinda- I think 15 is a little old to first ride the bus. I started at 13, I believe, in Clearwater, FL, so I could get to the beach in the summer when my parents worked. I wasn't exactly in the normal demographic, but it worked. Once I was in HS, I had friends who drove. Not a much safer choice, huh? If your kid can ride his bike alone/with friends, he can take the public bus. It's probably safer than the school bus, sounds like! Anyone have their kids in school in DC? Those kids all take Metro.

"yes, ride city bus at age 10. What is really the big deal? "

I used to ride the metro by myself to work as a teenager, and I would never, ever let a 10-year old ride alone. With a few friends, sure, but alone? When I rode the metro, I had sexual advances made to me by creepy older men on a regular basis. Some of them were clearly drunk or on drugs. I would never let my DD ride the metro until she was big and mature enough to fight off such advances.

(And since I know I'll be getting comments- I was wearing business suits- I was interning downtown).

I think it is a joke that you all think the metro is so safe even during the day. I have seen fist fights on the metro, shouting matches, drunks, (one who got slapped in the face for trying to kiss a man) and was almost knocked flat on a crowded train when I was six months pregnant.

Call me helicopter captain number if you want to, but I am not going to put the most precious thing to me on the metro when she is ten. When she is 15 maybe, but since I will never live in DC again, I really don't have to worry about it.

"The problem with 10-year-olds in D.C. walking to school or riding city buses is that degenerates and perverts who used to crawl in the shadows have learned to walk right out in broad daylight to grab innocent children."

The boogeyman is going to get me! Ahh! People watch too much television. Here's a clue - most children who are abducted are abducted by PEOPLE THEY KNOW. And if you are so afraid of "degenerates and perverts" on the streets, how about teaching your kid "don't talk to strangers?"

Posted by: atlmom1234 | August 22, 2007 11:20 AM

let it go, or we will all just ruin a perfectly nice wednesday.

Josh, I'm not sure how much studying you think a 4 year old should be doing? the aftercare program for older children includes homework time and even provides community volunteers to help the children, but since 4 years olds don't generally get homework, we just let our son take the lead as he likes. He loves to write letters and will independently ask us for paper and pen so that he can do this as he pleases. Other kids in his class like to "read" to one another-- they aren't really reading, but they tell a story based on the pictures they see in the book. I think this is great for that age-- what do you think?

This is starting to sound like the good old days at the OB.

floof- I assume you weren't 10 and interning in a suit. The good news is, most people on the Metro are like me. There is no way in hell we're going to let an adult harass a kid. On the other hand, I agree they should travel in small packs, 3-5. Safety in numbers and all.

Sheesh, even if you should encounter an annoying passenger on a bus or subway, you just get up and move to another seat. Or, worst case scenario, get off at the next stop and wait for the next bus/train. And here's a little secret: Most subway systems in this country have plain-clothes police on each train.

What did you name used to be in the "good old days" of this blog, Hillary?

I am NOT getting into the whole pedophile argument again. Do not direct any posts about it my way. It is a beautiful day here and I REFUSE to have it suck today. Besides it's my mother's birthday.

And here's a little secret: Most subway systems in this country have plain-clothes police on each train.

You've got to be kidding me?

mehitabel

What did you name used to be in the "good old days" of this blog, Hillary?

Why are you asking?

"The good news is, most people on the Metro are like me. "

I was 15. And incidentally, no one EVER intervened, even when the guy who was obviously high out of his mind wouldn't leave me alone. All the men on the car either looked away or hid behind their newspapers and pretended not to see what was going on. It actually occured to me that he could rape me in the middle of the car and none of these guys would have done a thing. Most people do not get involved, unfortunately. Kids need to learn to handle situations like this on their own, but 10 years old rarely have the physical size or the life experience to know what to do.

happy b-day to pATRICK's mom and hillary, I think I know who you are.

Anyway, I would let my ten year old ride the subway with collin farrel.

Hillary, why are you afraid to tell us your former name here?

Actually, Josh has a point, though he's making it in such a way that they'll focus on the emotion of the message and not the content. Child abduction in this country has either remained at the same level as 30 years ago or dropped (I actually think it's dropped). It's just that with the media the way it is, we hear about every one and it makes it seem like it's almost probable if we're not careful enough with our children. Culture of fear, that's what we live in/with.

hillary, I think I know who you are.

do tell

floof- That's crazy. We've seen kids split off from their parents when the doors closed between them. A bunch of adults (strangers) got it straightened out. I always keep an eye out. Maybe women are more likely to involve themselves than men. Though, I have to say, I think a 15 year old is old enough to handle it. I don't think of a 15 year old as a child, but as a teenager. 10 is young for the Metro, but 12's not.

No, Irishgirl, I'm not kidding re plain-clothes subway police.

"The boogeyman is going to get me! Ahh! People watch too much television. Here's a clue - most children who are abducted are abducted by PEOPLE THEY KNOW. And if you are so afraid of "degenerates and perverts" on the streets, how about teaching your kid "don't talk to strangers?"

How about I teach my kids not to talk to "JoshHamilton". You little perv. Let me guess. You're on a first-name basis with Chris Hansen. My God Leslie, please tell me you have the ability to report persons such as this to the appropriate law-enforcement agency.

floof

That has been my experience on the metro too. When I first started riding, I would get on after a guy who did electrical work. He is the only person I ever encountered who would seem like he would help someone.

Oh well, you guys let your kids ride the bus/metro when you want and I will let my kids ride the pretend metro (there is none here) and bus when I want. That's why you are the parent of your kids and I am the parent of mine.

How about I teach my kids not to talk to "JoshHamilton".

That was funny. No offense Josh.

"Actually, Josh has a point, though he's making it in such a way that they'll focus on the emotion of the message and not the content. Child abduction in this country has either remained at the same level as 30 years ago or dropped (I actually think it's dropped)."

You "THINK" it has dropped?!?!?! Give me a break. Get some real statistics or go home to your parents' basement you pathetic loser. You know what I think. I think you were a key figure in the 9/11 attacks. Thank God I don't need evidence to "prove" my assertion, I only need to follow your logic.

You know what I think. I think you were a key figure in the 9/11 attacks.

Not funny.

"You know what I think. I think you were a key figure in the 9/11 attacks."

I really don't care if you think it was funny. Do you have evidence to back up WorkingMomX's assertion? Or do you agree she/he/it was just spewing crap??

Scarry, I'm surprised you had trouble, as you don't have the tone of a victim, and creeps usually seek out the weak. I think you're going to raise your girl to be strong enough to let others know that if they start some crap, she's going to raise a stink. It does depend on the maturity and confidence of the kid and comfort of the parent. Truth be told, I'm more worried about something happening when they're out on their bikes alone where there may not be a good samaratan around.

atb wrote: "Truth be told, I'm more worried about something happening when they're out on their bikes alone where there may not be a good samaratan around."

Another alternative to parent transportation, school-buses and mass-transit -- and, as an added bonus, a "green" one a that! -- is the bicycle. One way to improve your child's safety is for him/her to ride with another bicyclist who lives nearby to group activites in which they both participate.

baba -- Amicule, deliciae, num is sum qui mentiar tibi?

BAN BABABOOEY666!!!! BAN BABABOOEY666!!! He is evil. He attacks other posters. He needs to be subjected to the WaPo rules. He adds NOTHING to the discussion. He is ALWAYS off-topic. Please Leslie, BAN HIM!!!!!

Damn, I am so sorry that I encouraged the blog idiot with my moment of hormonal laughter about the Josh post. It would have been funny to me at that moment if he would have said any of our names.

And, wow, an original joke about an Irish person, how did you ever think of it.

ATB, do you see now how I attract crazy people. Show them a little bit of attention and this is what you get.

Leslie don't take his post down on my account, I think the one directed to workingmomX is the one that needs to go.

WorkingMomX:

"baba -- Amicule, deliciae, num is sum qui mentiar tibi?"

Oooh. You so smart. You speak very smart language. Me no understand it. Me no match for you.

It's too bad you can't actually back up your original post you pathetic liar.

Please don't take down the post on my account. I am not easily offended, especially by someone so, shall we say, unmedicated.

What is going on?

"And, wow, an original joke about an Irish person, how did you ever think of it."

Actually, it reminded me of the hilarious Colin Quinn joke on SNL. "Scientists today discovered that having at least a drink a day was good for your health. Oh, wait a minute. That wasn't scientists. That was Irish people." Funny.

"I don't think of a 15 year old as a child, but as a teenager. 10 is young for the Metro, but 12's not. "

I think we actually agree here. At 15, I was able to handle the situation, but I know I could not have at 10. Possibly not even at 12.
I think you need to look at the individual child rather than just the age. A balsy, extroverted 12 year old might be fine alone on the metro, but a shy, frightened 13 year old might not be. It really depends on the kid. And, as the saying goes, you have to parent the child you have, not the child you want. You can do everything you can to get the extroverted kid and still end up with the shy one.

Basically, I won't let my daughter ride alone until I feel she can stand up for herself properly. She needs to be able to take care of herself, and not be in the position to have to depend on strangers who may not help her out.

atlmom1234,
As someone who grew up in Atlanta, I'm honestly horrified at the idea that you would put your children on MARTA or the bus by themselves at an early age. Before you tell me that I'm a snob who thinks that I'm too good for the train, let me mention that my father took me and my brother around on MARTA on the weekends when I was as little as three. I think the train is great for getting places without a car.
That being said, my parents NEVER allowed me to ride on the train until I was in high school. Even after they deemed that I was at an age where I could ride the train, I was often harassed by people for money, or just because I was a cute young girl. There are NO police on those trains to protect your children, and plenty of people who wouldn't think twice before hurting them or taking their belongings or money. Compared to the NY subways, MARTA is far less safe. I hope you consider how people change around unaccompanied children before you put them on that train by themselves again.

"Please don't take down the post on my account. I am not easily offended, especially by someone so, shall we say, unmedicated."

Just curious, but why do you think I'm "unmedicated"? Maybe I'm just following in the footsteps of my hero Amy Winehouse and sucking back a cocktail of K, Yay, and E. Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it???

To read the posts on this site, you would think every stranger on the street is a sex-crazed pervert just waiting to grab the next child walking! TURN OFF THE TV AND GET OFF THE INTERNET FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. The fear mongerers are turning us into a group of worriers afraid of our own shadows!!

"Leslie don't take his post down on my account ..."

And PLEASE stop with the "his". Do you just assume that anyone who is willing to tangle with the "cool" people on this blog must be a man? If not, what is it? Are you blinded to the fact that a woman might be argumentative? Honestly, what is up here?

What is MARTA?

Hillary, We'll tell you what MARTA is if you'll tell us what your name used to be.

"To read the posts on this site, you would think every stranger on the street is a sex-crazed pervert just waiting to grab the next child walking!"

Do the math genius. It doesn't require that "every" stranger be a sex-crazed pervert. It only requires that about 1 in the 1,000 persons your child would encounter in a normal subway ride be off-the-mark. Please show some semblance of knowledge before posting. Thanks a bunch!

Moving A**holes Rapidly Thru Atlanta

"Please show some semblance of knowledge before posting. Thanks a bunch!"

And to pre-empt the coming attacks, let me do it for you. "Hey Baba Booey, why don't you take your own advice." Ha ha ha. Very original.

I can't speak about MARTA, but about the Metro, I can kind of see why people would hesitate to let their children ride it alone. I remember getting into commuter mode during my 90-minute trek to work where you don't look, REALLY LOOK, at anyone just out of habit. In the 12 years I rode the Metro, I never once saw anyone harassed as an individual, though the occasional drunk would treat a carful to a song or diatribe. I would certainly get involved if a young person was being harassed. I'm sorry that happened to you, floof.

"Moving A**holes Rapidly Thru Atlanta"

I proudly take the floor to nominate for Quote of the Day.

"Child abduction in this country has either remained at the same level as 30 years ago or dropped (I actually think it's dropped)."

WorkingMomX:

You are not going to get off easy. Not if I have anything to say about it. Where are your statistics??? Please back up your comment or take it back. This is the second time I have asked you for proof and you just ignore my requests. If you want to be taken seriously, pony up.

bababooey,

Go ride the public tranport in Atlanta, it is made for people like you!

Hillary, you have no standing to nominate for quote of the day until you tell us what your name used to be on this blog.

mehitabel

"Hillary, you have no standing to nominate for quote of the day until you tell us what your name used to be on this blog."

Meow. Who died and made you Head Cheerleader?

"bababooey,

Go ride the public tranport in Atlanta, it is made for people like you!"

Wow. A public transportation system made for mothers who care about their children, who refuse to believe the government just because it's the government, who loves to spar with those who have opposing viewpoints, and above all, who loves America. You're right anon. That system is for me. THANKS!!!!!

Leslie -- Some suggestions for future topics:

conflict resolution (between children)
when your teenager gets a driver's license
how to ask for a sabbatical
date nights

And I'd still like that recipe exchange!

Date nights! There's a topic I can dig!

"mehitabel

"Hillary, you have no standing to nominate for quote of the day until you tell us what your name used to be on this blog."

Meow. Who died and made you Head Cheerleader?"

Fred, who also issues the much-coveted QOTD.

"when your teenager gets a driver's license"

Since Leslie doesn't have teenagers, she will lead off with the next best thing-herself! There will be the usual gushing about the thrill and excitement of learning to drive. Oh, and how she overcame some tiny obstacle to obtain her license, but, by golly, she did it! Her father is a hero if he taught her to drive and/or funded her lessons/car. If he didn't, he's off the hook. Daddy was a busy lawyer, you know.

The best reason to carpool over sending kids on public transit is that kids that age need supervision.

The problems I had weren't ever with unknown perverts -- it was mostly kids who lived nearby!

They'd get to walking home and somebody would grab somebody else's hat and a scuffle would break out. Or they'd meet up with another bunch of kids and a backpack would get run off with. With iPods I'm sure it's even worse.

It doesn't make one bit of difference where you live either. The incident that brought this home to me was when the son of a well-known Washington Post columnist threw another kids' violin down the sewer!

Wow bababooey666 is annoying! It's not "tangling with the 'cool' people" when you're just being annoying. And who's "cool"? What are you, 13? That goes for you too, hillary. Did you guys not get enough attention as kids? Why do you dominate the blog with garbage day after day?

Feel free to hurl the insults that you seem to cherish. I won't be replying to either of you.

On topic, I rode the city buses around Rockville and Wheaton and those areas starting at 13 or 14. The best advice I got was to not speak to strangers and to yell at the top of my lungs "Leave me alone!" if I felt threatened and to find an adult in uniform. I never had to use those techiniques, but I felt safer knowing that I had a plan. Even as an adult, when I'm on the Metro alone, I know the best course of action is to draw as much attention to the perv as possible. Like saying very loudly "I don't want to talk to you. You are obviously drunk. Please find another seat and bother someone else."

bababooey- I believe the reason people think you're male is because you use the term 'pissant,' which seems to be pretty much exclusively used by teenaged boys. And I think aggressive ranting is associated more with men as well. You may get novels by Laura, but most of the women on this blog limit the USE OF CAPS. And most of the women actually spar with pATRICK, rather than hurl unintelligible nonsense at him in a hit-and-run approach. Hillary excluded, of course.

Sometimes folks on OB crack me up. I think we see ourselves as enlightened, yet we just toss around unresearched generalizations without a care.

Some are indicating that the world is more dangerous for children (vis crime perpetrated upon them) now than years ago.

NOT TRUE, assuming you mean recent history:

http://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/phenviro5.asp

It's really not hard to google this stuff. Why spread FUD (Fear, Uncertaintly and Doubt) instead?

«What are you waiting for Irishgirl?? Too busy getting drunk to answer my question.»
«Posted by: bababooey666 | August 22, 2007 11:56 AM »

«Amicule, deliciae, num is sum qui mentiar tibi?»
«Posted by: WorkingMomX | August 22, 2007 12:02 PM »

«-- The mad Arab, Abdul Alhazred, quoted by H. P. Lovecraft in "The Festival."»
«Posted by: MattInAberdeen | August 22, 2007 11:14 AM »

Can we not all get along? Prejudiced language, like Irish getting drunk and Latin-lover seducers and Arabs getting mad, do you ever ask, who is the Arab mad at, and why? «Mentiar» mihi, I do not care if you lie to me in Latin because the truth, it will be found out anyway. Please though, let us not make mock of ethnic nationalities, this is the Washington Post, John P. Sousa, that great American, he dedicated a musical march to the Washington Post, he wrote it for his band, the US Marine Corps Band. This link, copy it to your browser, download MP3, play it. This music, while you listen to the Marine Band playing it, think of how all ethnic Americans, Arab Americans, Irish Americans, Luso-Americans like Sousa, all can be proud to be Americans, no one needs to make mock of where other fellow's ancestors came from. Yes, we can all get along.

http://www.usmc.mil/band/m_bandcd.nsf/2c27a15bfd3a6753852567d300486244/276f6cbabe39ec12852567d3004cb398?OpenDocument

Meesh, I didn't even realize Baba had referred indirectly to me as one of the "cool" people on this blog until I read your post. Hey, thanks for the compliment, Baba! (Though I'm fairly certain it was unintentional.)

I'm wondering how many people on this blog have ever witnessed or been the victim of harassment on the metro.

Abu,

Do you spend any time with your kids in the carpool lane?

I've witnessed harassment on the metro.

I've witnessed harassment at my office.

I don't think of my office as being too dangerous for a 10-year old to be there unattended.

"most of the women on this blog limit the USE OF CAPS. And most of the women actually spar with pATRICK"

Just to be clear. By your impeccable logic, it's most likely that pATRICK is a woman.

"Feel free to hurl the insults that you seem to cherish. I won't be replying to either of you"

Meesh:

You just did reply. It's so sad that you're not willing to verbally spar with those who disagree with you or who might look a little different than you. Did you grow up in a gated community? Don't bother answering. We all know you did.

"Just to be clear. By your impeccable logic, it's most likely that pATRICK is a woman."

A virago! I knew it!

"Just to be clear. By your impeccable logic, it's most likely that pATRICK is a woman."

Wait a minute. I think I misunderstood. By your impeccable logic, pATRICK is the only person on this blog who is not a woman. Now I think I know why everyone else here is so shrill!

"bababooey- I believe the reason people think you're male is because you use the term 'pissant,' which seems to be pretty much exclusively used by teenaged boys. And I think aggressive ranting is associated more with men as well. You may get novels by Laura, but most of the women on this blog limit the USE OF CAPS. And most of the women actually spar with pATRICK, rather than hurl unintelligible nonsense at him in a hit-and-run approach. Hillary excluded, of course"

Hey atb:

Let me guess. Your official title is "Department of Homeland Security, Director of Racial Profiling".

Good God you're an idiot. What are you even talking about? Wait, are you trying to be funny? Are you snickering as you type? OK, you're to be pitied. You are so lame. As a cheerleader, I'm apparently uniquely qualified to say so.

From "The Big Lebowski"

WALTER
"...am I wrong?"

DUDE
"No, you're not wrong--"

WALTER
"Am I wrong!"

DUDE
"You're not wrong, Walter, you're just an ass hole."

On the OB blog, Walter is played by bababooey666.

Oh atb:

I'm not snickering as I type. Did I hit too close to home? Are you stuck in a dead-end government job doing George W. Bush's bidding? Oh, atb. It will all get better. Don't feel sorry for yourself. Sure, you could have made better choices in your life but you were doing the best you could with what God gave you.

"On the OB blog, Walter is played by bababooey666."

And the part of Terry Schiavo is played by Mako!!

Gimme an L
Gimme an A
Gimme an M
Gimme an E
What's that spell?
Bababooey!
One more time!
Bababooey!

"Gimme a G. Gimme an E. Gimme a D. What's that spell? The long-term goal of our favorite poster, atb!"

Way to be original. You know what's not funny? Taking someone's joke and trying to change it a bit and pass it off as yours. Man, August in DC is slow...

atb

"Way to be original. You know what's not funny? Taking someone's joke and trying to change it a bit and pass it off as yours. Man, August in DC is slow..."

Cheers on this blog go waay back.

bababooey, you are a joke and you add nothing of substance to the discussion. Why do you post? From which ward did you escape? No one is interested in anything you have to say because you are so abusive and confrontational. Why don't you go take a kick boxing class? Truly, and I'm directly this at hillary too, don't bother posting unless you havve something to contribute that's not an insult at someone else or just snark.

"Way to be original. You know what's not funny? Taking someone's joke and trying to change it a bit and pass it off as yours."

Dude/Dudette:

Hunh?? Just admit when you've been served. I've done it a few times. It strengthens the soul.

Anyway, you've grown tiresome atb. I'm going to go stand over there.

This topic has degenerated on the side into something somewhat interesting: people that think DC is the most dangerous city in the world v. those of us who actually live here....and would allow our kids on the metro.

Irishgirl, were you commuting in NE DC in the early '90s in the middle of the night? The metro experiences you describe are so foreign to me as to seem almost made up! I have commuted for years on the metro (during and after rush hour), and have never seen anything beyond the constant general rudeness, crowding of the doors and idiots pushing to get out of the doors before their stop. (And the delays. Oh, the delays.) Anyway, that's my norm.

and pATRICK, really? The crime and murder capital of the country?? Again, I'd ask, when did you actually live here (if ever), under Mayor Barry when most of what is now Penn Quarter was a crack den? As far as places go, Northwest Washington (and its metro) are fairly clean, safe and mostly immune (but for some unfortunate and well-publicized blips in the last couple of years) from the kind of seemingly exaggerated incidents above. I'm almost (almost!) laughing out loud here.

Can we talk about lawyers' billables again?

wtf

"Truly, and I'm directly this at hillary too, don't bother posting unless you havve something to contribute that's not an insult at someone else or just snark."

Again, who died and made you the Queen Bee?

"bababooey, you are a joke and you add nothing of substance to the discussion."

Why thank you, wtf. That is the kindest thing anyone has said to me in quite a while. I am clearly achieving my goal!

I've been "served"? Seriously? You know, the kids aren't saying this anymore. Mos def. Tight.

Where are the recipes?

"and pATRICK, really? The crime and murder capital of the country??"

NPR good enough for you?
Washington, D.C., has the highest homicide rate per capita in the nation. One local scholar says that sociological factors, such as population distribution and poverty, have more to do with the high murder rate than do policy issues. NPR's Robert Siegel talks with Charis Kubrin, senior fellow at the Institute on Crime, Justice and Corrections at George Washington University.

"And most of the women actually spar with pATRICK, rather than hurl unintelligible nonsense at him in a hit-and-run approach. Hillary excluded, of course"

Yep, that's what makes it fun, people like Bababooey are just unhinged.

Oh atb:

You know what the other posters are saying don't you. "atb, why are you letting her drag you down to her level?? Why are taking the bait??" But you can't resist, can you atb. You're addicted. You're like Bill Bennett at a craps game. You can't resist.

Actually hillary, I'm pretty sure I speak for the blog when I tell you and babablooey that you both suck and your posts are worthless.

"and pATRICK, really? The crime and murder capital of the country??"

NPR good enough for you?
Washington, D.C., has the highest homicide rate per capita in the nation. One local scholar says that sociological factors, such as population distribution and poverty, have more to do with the high murder rate than do policy issues. NPR's Robert Siegel talks with Charis Kubrin, senior fellow at the Institute on Crime, Justice and Corrections at George Washington University.

Posted by: pATRICK | August 22, 2007 02:10 PM

That's interesting (and I mean that genuinely as these statistics change every year)- I did just try to run my own search and could not find anything but I did it in about 20 seconds. Regardless, I am confident that the murder stats (just like similar HIV statistics) are limited to certain quadrants. Living and working and even metroing (and even allowing children to metro) in NW Washington is not so dangerous. Did NPR actually break down those statistics? Just curious....

"Actually hillary, I'm pretty sure I speak for the blog when I tell you and babablooey that you both suck and your posts are worthless."

wtf, now you're really making me blush.

babablooey666

I would rather be a comatosed individual who is loved than an ass hole.

XXXOOO
Mako

wtf

"Actually hillary, I'm pretty sure I speak for the blog when I tell you and babablooey that you both suck and your posts are worthless."

Actually, wtf, SPEAKING FOR AN ENTIRE GROUP is classic Queen Bee/Cheerleader & Wannabee behavior!

Why in the H$ll is hillary so fixated on cheerleaders? Creepy, especially if she has been such a "regular".

That's right, you two, keep it coming. You must feel so proud of yourselves at the end of the day. Babablooey, you should blush. And hillary, if telling you two where to get off is being a Queen Bee SIGN ME UP. You may have exhausted the rest of the people on this thing but I just got here and I'm used to dealing with morons. So bring it on.

My daughter takes the metro red line and transfers onto the green line to meet me from her fathers house. She is 15. She told me earlier this week that she hates taking metro due to the various forms of idiots and unstable personalitites she has come across.

She is old enough and it is convienient but we both prefer that her father not use that mode of transportation for her.

wtf

"So bring it on."

Oh, brother...

Mako:
"I would rather be a comatosed individual who is loved than an a** hole."

I speak Mako. Allow me to translate: I would rather be bababooey666 after an insulin overdose than atb.

In all seriousness, that is about 20 personal attacks for the day. More than enough to cover an entire week. So enjoy your blog everyone. I'll be back next Monday. Unless Leslie sees the light and bans me permanently.

What's the matter hillary? Can dish it out but can't take it?

HALLELUJAH! Moron 1 has left the building. Now, hillary, it's your turn. We're waiting.

wtf

"What's the matter hillary? Can dish it out but can't take it?"

OMG. Classic teen behavior!

mamipicante's daughter told her "earlier this week that she hates taking metro due to the various forms of idiots and unstable personalitites she has come across."

Kinda like Hillary and Babba on the "On Balance" blog, huh? I'd rather take my chances on public transit, thanks.

"HALLELUJAH! Moron 1 has left the building. Now, hillary, it's your turn. We're waiting."

Oh good. Thank you for leaving, wtf. But we will all miss your sense of humor and ability to take a joke. Love you, wtf!

Takes one to know one, hillary.

CreamOfTheCrop | August 22, 2007 02:16 PM

Actually according to the preliminary crime stats published by the FBI for 2006 NYC leads the pack with murders at 596 and DC only had 169. There are many many cities who would hold the title of murder capital such as Pheonix or LA before DC.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/06prelim/index.html

wtc

"Takes one to know one, hillary."

C'mon. Is this the best you can do?

ALERT: Moron 1 has returned. Lock and load, y'all.

hillary is THAT the best YOU can do?

NoName-you just provided evidence to support my point-I'm not the one who called it the murder capital. I incredulously questioned pATRICK, who did (with NPR evidence to support it). Anyway, thanks-I couldn't find anything either way but was surprised to hear it. I hate NPR anyway.

Today's blog has turned into life in the cesspool lane.

On a per capita basis, Philadelphia and Camden would be right near the top.

"ALERT: Moron 1 has returned."

Welcome back, wtf! But don't be so hard on yourself.

Although I guess pATRICK was talking about per capita, not total. So you could both be right at the same time. Doesn't matter. My original point was that NW DC is pretty safe, as is the metro.

wtf

"hillary is THAT the best YOU can do?"

YOU threw down the challenge!

cream of the crop,

I have no reason to lie. I was on the red line for most of my time in DC. I saw three drunk people, one during the day and two at night. The crazy lady who tried to kiss the young boy fell down the steps on her way out and I laughed. Sorry, but she did "try" to touch my husband. It didn't work out well for her. The fist fight happened on the way home when the train lurched and a rare Good Samaritan grabbed a lady who was going to fall, she slapped him and then his wife slapped her. I guess I should say it was a slap fight.

Just because you've never seen it, doesn't mean it has not happened and I find it odd you would think I would make it up. The metro has no barring on my life now, so why would I care.

Actually, I wish I was lying about the time the lady tried to push me down. It was a horrible experience which almost landed my husband in jail.

I'm turning into Captain Google, here.

First of all, what is a "high" rate of violence?

National avg in 2005 is 469 aggravated assaults per 100,000 people.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

Divide 469 into 100,000....I'll wait.... what you get is a statistically insignification fraction. Second of all, if you look at the link what you will see is a constant decline in crime since the 1990. No doubt either Reagan or Clinton are to be credited, depending on your politics. If you are Rudy Giuliani, you probably credit yourself, but I digress.

So onto DC:
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/dccrime.htm

2005 yielded a "higher" crime rate than the nation's. True. 6,206 per 100,000 people. A little long division yields a .06% chance of one person out of 100,000 being victimized violently in DC.

So what's this tell us? "High" is relative. If you know 500,000 people there is a good chance you know someone who has been the victim of a violent crime.

Now, caveat - You could argue lots of crimes go unreported. Fine. But I could then argue that lots of domestic crimes go unreported in the suburbs. For every anecdote of your cousin's brother's wife getting her purse snatched in DC, there is an anecdote of bratty suburban high-schoolers slashing tires.

Stop with the FUD. Research and think.