Although online predators are a risk, probably particularly for teens, the big risks continue to come from people teenagers know - and that parents may even trust already.

I wish we could get away from this fallacy that predators are either a) nameless, faceless voids behind the computer or b) someone you "won't like."

That said I think the rules are a good set of rules but they really don't adress the issue of internet safety. Internet safety includes:

- setting rules around giving out personally identifying information, photos, etc.

- helping teens be aware that how someone presents him or herself online may be a total construct (critical thinking is important here - what's in it for them?)

- ensuring that teens do not go to meet anyone they have met online unsupervised, ever.

- engaging teens in their community beyond the 'net so that it doesn't become their main or only social circle (as a tool for communication with an existing social group I think it is fine)

- talking to teens about what they perceive as the risks - teens are sometimes way more up on this than we are

Also a program like IMPACT can provide really solid training for young women.

My 9 year old and I talk a lot and have spoken a little bit about what she thinks about boys. And I quote "basically, I think they are just unnecessary and gross". Which is exactly what she should think at her age. I hope that we can maintain the same level of openness we have now as she gets older. I have no advice to offer today, but will be looking for some!

The one rule of thumb my husband and I use for gauging our daughter's friends is the more polite they are to our face, the less we trust them. Politeness is important but it should seem natural. When kids "act" polite (it is an overdone kind of politeness) then they are typically hiding something or waiting for you to walk away so they can steal or break something.

I have to disagree. Some parents really just want to raise little gentlemen and little ladies.

I recently visited a friend of mine who has an 8-year-old son. When the little boy came home from school, he walked over to me, extended his hand and said, "Hello, Mrs. Soandso, I am pleased to meet you. My name is Soandso." I said "Pleased to meet you too! How was school today?" He said "It was good, Mrs. Soandso, thank you ..."

"Extremely" polite? In this day and age, incredibly so. 50 years ago, pretty standard. My friend is a first-generation American and wants to raise her son to be a gentleman. And so, the incredible (and cute!!) politeness. He's not an Eddie Haskel, he's just a well-raised and well-mannered kid. I wish there were more kids and parents like that.

momof5 - just five words of advice - enjoy it while it lasts!

All kidding aside - my two boys were like that, open, easy to talk to, seemed to like to hear what I had to say. All that changed overnight, in middle school.

All I can suggest is that you be patient and be there for them. They do eventually come back. And they are listening. Seems to me that when they do start to date, or even just spend time hanging out with friends, all those lessons will play a part in how they act.

And (I guess not surprisingly, but I was surprised) much of their behavior mimics how their parents act. If you are polite and treat people with respect, they will too. If you avoid "bad" situations (alcohol immediately comes to mind), your kid will probably try it anyway but probably won't do much more than that.

My youngest is now almost 17 and things are pretty good. I trust him (most of the time!). I have always insisted that the boys introduce me to their friends so I feel pretty good about who they are with.

fr 21117:

>...Politeness is important but it should seem natural. When kids "act" polite (it is an overdone kind of politeness) then they are typically hiding something or waiting for you to walk away so they can steal or break something.

And how do YOU know that for a FACT? Ever stop to think that there ARE kids in the world who are NATURALLY polite?

I don't know what the problem with acting polite is. That's just part of our culture.

I mean, really. "Hi. How are you doing?" "Fine. Yourself?" "Can't complain." It's all just politeness protocol.

When you ask someone how he's doing, are you really looking for an answer? "Well, I caught my wife in bed with her ex from college, my son has a stomach bug and puked all over me last night, and my dog urinated on my bedroom floor. Life pretty much blows donkeys right now."

No, you didn't want an answer. You were only being polite. Don't feel bad. Personally, if I spoke my mind all the time instead of being polite, I would never stop swearing at people. I dare say I'm not the only one.

This is how society functions. With people being cordial to one another, following protocol. I don't know why you expect anything different from a teenager.

One thing I will never allow is for other people to refer to my very young kids' friends of the opposite gender as "your boyfriend" or "your girlfriend". (Yes, it's already happening, even though they're only around 4 and 6! I cannot stand it.) While it seems like my stepdaughter came out of the womb boy crazy, her egg donor perpetuated it by never letting her just be friends with a boy -- it was always the coy looks and singsongy questions "so, is Travis your boyfriend?" To a child in Kindergarten, this sends a very strong message that boys are only good for one thing. And it turned out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I had a very, very frank discussion about dating and s*x with my stepdaughter a few years ago while she was still in high school, and had a hard time keeping my hair on while I heard about FWB (friends with benefits) and the casualness of oral s*x among friends and on school property. I also heard plenty about those so-called virgins who have declared they will abstain until marriage, most of whom appear to be willing to do everything, stopping literally just short of penetration, and that only in one orifice. (I wonder if this will even get posted.) Anyway, it's clear to me that things are very different now from when I was in high school 25 years ago. Keep those lines of communication open with your kids, please!!

WorkingMomX - hard to believe they posted your comment! (I kind of got a kick out of it, reminded me of when I asked my 16 year old if X was Y's boyfriend and he said "No, they're just f* buddies).

Nothing is sacred anymore...

My DD has OWL (Our Whole Lives) from the Unitarian Universalist church - the elementary and high school classes. They teach self-respect, sexual health and enjoyment (at an age appropriate level) and most importantly gives them all the tools they need to have healthy relationships. If it wasn't for those classes, and the strong relationship we have with her, we'd be very worried. We are also the 'cool parents' that drive her around with her friends, so we've met them all, spent time listening to them talk amongst themselves (they seem to forget that the drivers can hear them) and feel really good about the people she spends time with. None of this was accidental, or easy to build - but was worth the time.

Holy Hannah Montana, jjtwo, I would have had to have my lower jaw surgically affixed back onto my body if one of my kids said that to me! Good for you for keeping it together.

I'm telling you, I ought to switch careers and become a therapist. There's money to be made in the rising generation, that's for sure. Talk about intimacy issues.

I had a very, very frank discussion about dating and s*x with my stepdaughter

Posted by: WorkingMomX | January 16, 2008 10:43 AM

Ummm. Is there some reason you are scared to type in the word "sex"?

Yup, I'm scared I'll be censored by the powers that be on this blog. But apparently, I'm getting this one confused with "On Balance". It's a free for all here in comparison.

We really hammer home that this girl is somone's daughter, someone's sister...is this how you would like one of your friends to treat your fill-in-the-blank? Girls only allowed in son's room with door open. Emphasis on treating girl with great respect and only doing that which they would do in front of me. It's worked for us so far...

The mothers of the FWB (friends with benefits) teens run the PTA and soccer stuff in my neighborhood...

Jake, I wish I had extra money so you could head up a study on the correlation between being a QueenBee mom and having a daughter who's someone's FWB. That would cause a sea change in some of the ridiculous behavior of a certain population . . .

I don't have teenagers, but have heard from friends who do that there is a lot of pressure to have f---buddies and to have oral sex.

Hey, when did we find a cure for all sexually transmitted diseases?

But a point I want to bring up is this....for every parent that is vigilant, there are two who don't really care. These are the ones who let their daughters dress like hookers when going to school or let their sons refer to girls the way I refer to my female dog.

And don't think it doesn't start until high school. My sister, a teacher, just had two students in her class suspended for simulating oral sex . They are in the third grade! From what I hear the parents thought it was very funny.

We weren't allowed to bring friends home. Our house was private space, nobody who was not a relative not allowed in the house. No sleepovers at anybody else's house, either. We had to be home after school and at the dinner table every night. My older sister had a 10:00 curfew for dates; severely whipped when curfew was broken. Her boyfriend was the son of people my parents went to school with. In that small town, everybody knew everybody's parents and grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins. (Some teachers taught 3 generations of the same family.) I left home at 19 without any dating experience. To this day I equate dating with beatings. When was the last time you whipped your kid for coming home late?

You people seem to be incredibly thick even though you claim you're educated. (Notice some of the grammatical errors of Stacey when she's a 'editor' at the Compost.) You don't know the difference between race and nationality, education and intelligence, or sex and love. The discussion a few days ago about discussing sex with your kid never mentioned the word 'love.' Get it into your brains that teens engage in sex solely as a physical exercise. It means no more to them than blowing their nose or taking a dump. Most teen boys can't recall the name of the girl they had sex with the night before -- or even 20 minutes before. Or even during sex, for that matter. Same goes for some of the girls you people are raising.

Working MomX

"Jake, I wish I had extra money so you could head up a study on the correlation between being a QueenBee mom and having a daughter who's someone's FWB."

"That would cause a sea change in some of the ridiculous behavior of a certain population . . ."

No,it wouldn't.

The Queen Bee Moms were Queen Bees & Wannabees long before junior high...

I think the key to being able to lay down rules that your teen will abide by is to have a great relationship with them. As one poster pointed out, this doesn't happen overnight nor is it easy. Another poster pointed out for every 1 parent doing it right, there are 2 parents that just don't care. That's why it's imperative that you invest in your children's lives. We always encourage our boys to invite their friend over. Dinner, to watch a movie, to play PS2, whatever. The more you show you care and are willing to go the extra mile, the more inclined they are to trust you. Sorry...I'll get off my soapbox now...:)

I have a theory as to why today's teens are engaging in oral sex, anal sex, etc.

They learn in church they aren't supposed to have sex before marriage. They hear the "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" lectures and Bible Studies. They fill out the True Love Waits commitment cards. They believe that if they aren't having "penetrating" sex it isn't sex so it's not wrong. You want this behavior to stop? Stop shoving all this stuff down their throats. Don't depend on the church (or school) to tell your kids not to have sex. Have open and frank discussions with your children. Tell them the consequences of sex, all of them, emotional, physical, spiritual. Give your kids accurate information so they can make informed, mature choices.

I would like to add to the rules: apply them equally to both your boys and girls!

I was the oldest, yet my younger brother did not have the same rules as I did, just because he was a boy (our parents told me this explicitly). He was given much more freedom to do whatever he wanted, with little or no rules.

Age or maturity did not enter into the equation at all, only gender. It was not fair at the time, and I have not changed my opinion on that after all these years.

Why should someone get censored for talking honestly and legitimately about the topic at hand?

I would much rather see the flamers that contribute nothing get censored!

I think one of the best things to do is for the parents to have a healthy relationship. Clearly not the only thing, but a HUGE example for kids. I'm raising two boys, and hopefully they will learn to respect women and not treat them poorly. Of course, you never know.

But kids learn by what's around them - and they can hardly learn healthy relationships from those closest to them if those people aren't in healthy relationships (which is one reason what my sister is doing to her three precious children is so sad).

WorkingMomX - I was definitely speechless after he told me about the f-buddies (he did censor himself and actually said f, not the whole word. He followed up by saying "you know what that means don't you? Even if I hadn't, I think I would have lied and said I did, not a good feeling when your kids know more about sex than you do. I didn't know what they were talking about when they called another mom a MILF. But I digress.). What has amazed me is how open all of the kids seem today with talking about sex in general. I think that's our fault, we have brought them up to feel comfortable talking about anything, so when they bring up something like this we shouldn't be surprised.

But I can't help but imagine what would have happened if I had said things like this to my Mom when I was his age.

Boy am I making him out to be a problem kid! He's not actually, he is really very good, I think he just likes to pull my chain.

Within 2 years of a teens age is too much of a gap for a dating guideline. A 15 year old will be interested in what a 13 year old will not be. An 18 year old is pretty likely to score with the 16 year old.

I volunteered with a County-run program that helped battered women. What amazed me are the 'red alert' behaviors exhibited by abusive men, and women still got involved with them, lived with them, had kids with them, and couldn't get away from them when the men became extemely abusive. At that point, they had no place to go, nobody to watch the kids (they ALWAYS come equipped with kids) while they work minimum wage jobs. It's a horrible situation to get yourself into.

Teens should be taught in high school (or earlier) what these red alerts are and to steer clear of potential abusive relationships. OJ Simpson is a text-book example of an abusive male. The leader who ran the anger management classes said OJ was guilty from Day One.

Red alerts I can think of off the top of my head (this list is not all inclusive):
1. Extremely jealous
2. Extremely territorial
3. How does he treat other women in his life, like his mother, sister, female teachers?
4. Threats to destroy something you value, like a photograph, pet, any property.
5. Abusive behavior toward small animals.
6. Stalking -- following you, listening in on phone conversations, checking odometer on your car.
7. Showing up unexpectedly when you are out somewhere with friends.
8. Hitting, punching verbal abuse, roughhousing that is a little too rough, slapping, or threats to do so.
9. Forcing you to have sex when you don't want to.
10. Isolating you from other people, especially your family and friends so they don't witness the abuse.

Obviously men/boys who grow up where this behaviour is in the house don't know any better. Girls who grow up in this environment also think violence in the home is the norm. "Gee, I guess I have to take a beating from my boyfriend because my mom was a punching bag for somebody, too."

Break the cycle of violence. If teenaged boys are behaving like this at 14, 15 or 16, they will continue it into adulthood. Girls in high school should be taught to not get involved with these guys.

Meredith Neale: I think that your theory (blaming churches for oral sex, anal sex, etc.) is complete bunkum. (Figuring that word won't get me censored.) If you have an anti-church (or anti-abstinence program as taught by churches) bias, that's fine. But don't blame it for everything.

Rather, I think that there are a number of factors that play into it:

- kids are constantly warned about pregnancy. Well, you can't get pregnant engaging in those activities, now, can you? So, there's a "safety" issue.

- kids are taught in school, in religious education classes, etc. about sexually-transmitted diseases. Little to nothing is ever said about STDs from oral sex or anal sex. So, a lot of people seem to think that those are safer activities.

- darn it, it just *feels good* when you engage in those activities, and you can tell people that you're still technically a virgin.

- those activities, most especially oral sex and, for lack of a better phrase, hand jobs, have been discussed so thoroughly in modern media that any and all stigmas have been removed.

- Different activities are treated differently in a number of contexts. Here in Canada, "massage parlors" are referred to as "rub and tugs" because it's generally not illegal to give "manual stimulation". After all, that's just massaging a body part, and if something occurs that's part of nature, well, it isn't fundamentally different from your muscles loosening up when your shoulders are rubbed.

(Sigh) Okay, that should be "abstinence program as taught by churches". Very few churches actually run ANTI-abstinence programs.

Next time, proofread before you post!

Interesting re: the church thing.

When out of college, I was going on a 'camp' weekend run by the Jewish community center's singles group. So my friend was asking me about it cause her church would keep boys and girls far away from each other.

not so on these weekends. The point is to get Jews together with other Jews. There's no preaching or whatever - there were fun activities, it was hardly a free for all, but those in charge were hardly going to send you back to your cabin if they found you where you shouldn't be.

It was a totally different perspective.

"Here in Canada, "massage parlors" are referred to as "rub and tugs" because it's generally not illegal to give "manual stimulation". After all, that's just massaging a body part, and if something occurs that's part of nature, well, it isn't fundamentally different from your muscles loosening up when your shoulders are rubbed."

Man, I've got to visit Canada.

Funniest thing ever was the day last year after my students had had the "what's happening to my body?" videos in class (I taught 5th grade last year). There was this one VERY good church-going girl who was trying to describe it to me: "It...was very gross...but very informative, too."

My mom always talked to me about sex (she didn't trust the school because they had D.A.R.E. and that lost all credibility for the school with her), but she NEVER talked to me about dating, except to say I would be allowed to date when I was 30. I was completely dysfunctional in high school, but had a steady stream of beaux in college.

My stepdaughter was born in fairly ignominious circumstances, and her father is more than a little protective of his baby girl (she's 4, and he trips OUT when she talks about her little "boyfriends" at school or shows interest in family friends), so I believe all of the various stages of "the talk" are going to end up falling to me. Hopefully, I'll manage to balance the discussions better than my mother did.

maybe no one will read this, but I feel like posting anyway. I actually feel that we should not treat boys and girls equally -- let the girls go out late, but keep the boys in! One girl and 100 boys might equal 1 baby, but 100 girls and 1 boy equals 100 babies. I think I read that Eddie Murphy has 8 kids by three different women, and some other sports person has 9 by 8 different women.

As a 22 year old newlywed who was a virgin (and not just "technically" a virgin) when I got married, I'd like to offer some advice. Not that I know much, but I've had many conversations with people my age and younger concerning dating, sex, etc, and have seen/heard many things that break my heart concerning how young people think of themselves and have been treated or allowed others to treat them.

Teach your daughters that they are valueable, beautiful, and don't ever need a man to fulfill or satisfy them. Raise them in such a way that they won't feel the need to show off their bodies wearing practically nothing to get the attention they so desperately desired from you growing up - give them healthy attention, not letting the tv or internet raise them. Teach your sons that girls are valueable, not objects, that they should be respected. Teach them to treat and view all girls as their sisters, not as potential mates. That will all come naturally, later, but they need to respect girls if they are going to be a good mate. Finally, don't be your child's friend - be their parent. Be open and honest with them and be willing to have difficult conversations with them.

On another note, I know a several single moms who got pregnant when they were teenagers. Don't have the mindset or teach your children to think that getting pregnant is the worst thing that could happen to any young girl - it certainly isn't. The young women I know have completely changed their lives around from partying, doing drugs, etc. to responsible mothers. They were all looked down upon and shamed because they were the ones who actually got pregnant and kept their babies even though everyone around them was having sex, too. STDs are far more common, dangerous, and less detectable then pregnancy.