From the article:
"We know that they are the scientists and engineers and inventors and entrepreneurs who keep America at the top of the heap."

This is all well and good; however, we aren't getting the best and brightest from other countries. We are getting the destitute and desperate that drive down income levels by accepting meager wages from wretched companies that hire them.

I see Fischer can no longer demagogue on this issue, now he must at least bitterly acknowledge that people who believe in law and order are not against immigrants. Must be hard for his mushy headed sentiments. to be reconciled with reality. Too bad, he hasn't shown this level of balance in his previous columns. The whole lib media, has reached a new low in the immigration coverage. I didn't think it was possible but they've gone and done it.

"Remember America, you'd be nothing without these illegals getting you rich, you jerks!"

xxoo

--The liberal Media

Contrary to the national media, nonHispanic Americans are clear about this issue. Poll after poll has shown the majority do not support illegal immigration or the businesses that hire them in order to depress wages. The problem, as always, is that politicians are more hungry for corporate dollars to fund their reelection campaigns than they are to represent the citizens of this country. America is truly America, Inc., at this point, or the laws would have been enforced long ago.

At least you added the disclaimer that Democrats are not all of one mind on this issue. Kaine's win and the Democrat "trending" of Northern Virgina (in effect for quite some time in Arlington and Alexandria) are a result of many issues. I for one am a life-long Democrat who was disgusted by Kaine's campaign spokeswoman stating (in response to the Herndon issue) that illegal immigration wasn't their business or concern, yet I voted for Kaine. This attitude of turning a blind eye to mass violation of the law angers me, and I will likely vote against any candidate in any race who is not in favor of restricting public funds for illegals or who discourages enforcement of immigration law.

You wrote "Americans cherish fairness, and somehow it doesn't seem fair to grant privileges of citizenship to people who took it upon themselves to jump past those who are lawfully waiting in line to get into this country." See, you like many others are couching your speech in politeness. Hint: it doesn't just *seem* unfair - it is not fair, plain and simple! This point, more than racism, nativism, or other reasons, is why most Americans do not favor the do-nothing, know-nothing attitudes of our current officials, and will not be swayed by illegals marching or boycotting.

Thank you, Herndon citizens.

We know that they are the scientists and engineers and inventors and entrepreneurs who keep America at the top of the heap."

This just shows that the media is incapable of even getting simple facts right in the immigration debate.

Hey Fischer, want to tell the truth of what some undocumented workers at the marches were saying in reference to reclaiming US territory:

"We didn't cross the border, the border crossed us"

How about the organizers of the rallies who have made public comments that the US stole California and Arizona from Mexico and that latinos have a right to take it back from America?

How about the pro-communist organizations who organized almost every pro-illegal rally. Wanna report on that?

How about the Mexican flags? How about the spanish only language usage?

Instead of skiping work and school to jump around in the street, the Citizens walked the walk in the voting booth. I sure hope our National leaders were paying attention.

I will believe that people are serious about illegal immigration when they turn out people like Jane Napolitano in Arizona and dont vote for Ted Strickland as governor in Ohio. In Ohio skin color of the candidate will trump immigration, oil prices and other issues...mark my word.

There are many points in this article I would like to take issue with, but I will sum it up this way: regardless of how the Fishers and fellow-travelers of this country attempt to paint the picture, the American people reject the premise that we should open our arms to illegal immigrants and grant them the "rights" that they say they are entitled to. To enter and stay in this country is a priviledge and at the discretion of the American people, not because an individual was able to walk across an unguarded border. Hoefully the politicians on the national level (and that includes the President) will take heed of the voice of the American people.

To James:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

The people of Herndon has neglected long term forecast of the situation. The day laborers are not going to go away when they close down the new day laborer site, they are going to start congregating somewhere else, maybe back at that 7-11, maybe somewhere else; it seems prudent to help them assimilate into the community by allowing a central site to help them learn English so people can stop complaining about lack of knowledge of English in these "poor and destitute." And to teach them to become Americans and teach them these so great American values that I can't seem to find in previous post.
It really doesn't take a first year philosophy major to know that we might have the next Albert Einstein, or Sergey Brin in our midst, as we might also have Mao Tse Dong or a Hitler, but the personalities of each depends on how Americans may show compassion and mercy to seed benevolence in possible future leaders.

It does not help the reporting or discussion of a complex and emotional issue when the Post fails to make the distinction between illegal and legal immigration.

Here is the lead sentence from Fisher's column:

"The good people of Herndon have spoken, and in the privacy of the voting booth, they appeared to send a clear message: They do not want their town to cater to illegal immigrants."

Accurate enough. Now, here is the bold-face headline:

"In the Privacy of the Booth, No to Immigrants"

It is factually incorrect, leaves out the single most critical word, and is inflammatory. It would get an F in Journalism 101.

Some of the advocates in the immigration debate deliberately blur this critical distinction, in an effort to tar anyone who is concerned about the effects of illegal immigraton as an anti-Latino bigot. But it doesn't help matters for the Post to fall into that trap through careless headline writing.

First, the title of the article needs to be changed. It should say "No To ILLEGAL Immigration." Amazing how Mr. Fischer keeps trying to hide the fact that these people are illegal.

Typical Liberal.

"Remember America, you'd be nothing without these illegals getting you rich, you jerks!"

Spoken like a true uneducated, illegal immigrant!

As an avowed liberal who feels compassion for illegal immigrants who come to America with high hopes for new opportunity and a new life, I appreciate Marc's observation that many of us are conflicted on this issue. Most of the vocal anti-immigration chatter comes from the mouths of nationalistica nd seemingly bigotted conservative wingnuts, which further clouds the issue.

But despite any of these factors, in seems to me that in the end, illegal immigrants have broken the law and put a strain on our communities and social services, and this is unacceptable. The fact that they seem to think they have the absolute right to illegally enter the country and then stay here makes me wonder what other laws they feel they have the right to flaunt at their convenience. Further more, I do not understand the goal of the current latino immigration movement: do they suggest that we ignore illegal immigration entirely, and simply open the borders and allow anyone who pleases to walk into the United States, undocumented, and stay here? That's what current illegal immigrants have done, and they apparently brazenly believe they had/have every right to do so. (Count me in as a member of the "backlash", I guess...)

I embrace all immigrants who respect the rule of law and appreciate the heritage of our nation, its government, and our culture. As much as I'd like to welcome every immigrant with a dream, however, we simply can't accomodate the entire world, and as a matter of good public policy, we can't support criminal behavior (like illegal entry into the US).

My solution? Grant one-time amnesty to those illegal immigrants already here who have found jobs and have made efforts to learn English and function as normal everyday citizens. Kick the rest out and build a wall to stop new illegals from coming in. It sounds draconian, but sometimes reality trumps feel-good compassion.

Wow! I read Marc's post as wise and conciliatory. I can't begin to say how sad the responses make me . . . and how unrealistic and poorly informed some of the authors seem.

The belief that, as a nation, we have either the will or the ability to simply stop illegal immigration, or that it would be wise to do so, doesn't seem justified by the facts on the ground.

How I wish we had an effective leader who could speak to all of us in a way that would acknowledge these conflicts as Marc has done and discuss the issue of immigration in the context of economics and in terms of our history and our national values.

Memo to the MSM

Quit saying immigrants say illegal immigrants

We are not xenophobic. We support immigrants. We do not support taxpayer dollars being used to help ILLEGAL immigrants.

Without expressing any opinion I do have a few questions for those who call for full enforcement of existing immigration laws, mass deportations, etc. How much are you willing to pay for this? Would you support a tax increase to effect this? How much? Until a majority of citizens answers these questions "Whatever it takes, as long as it takes, until the job is done" this issue will be with us. And remember, any such policies would be carried out by our super efficient federal government, so add 50% and 20 years to your first estimate for completion. Unless of course the contract is let to a private firm, say Haliburton, in which case add 200% and one lifetime.

Being a legal immigrant who has been waiting in line for eight years and real close to getting my Green Card and silently complaining to the already overwhelmed INS/USCIS to expedite the process while being politely reminded that immigration is a priviledge not a right it really pains me to see ILLEGALS demanding something as a right which is a priviledge for every other immigrant.

Marc,

You're out of touch. Get off the soapbox and quit your sanctimonious sermonizing. You're not the one who had illegals sitting on your lawn furniture at 6 AM waiting for the illegal alien hiring center to open. You pay no cost for the Herndon center, so shut up about it.

As christian, Jew, Arab, or any other religion, how do you expect to be in union with "God" and a part of the holy "church" when we divide and descrimate against other human souls based on arbitrary national borders. These lines on the map, languages, cultural insignificancies, divide humans and keep us from becoming a united brotherhood of souls, of becoming a unified church. Illegals are christians, they love and care for for wives, families, children, and parents equally as yourself. They get as hungary as you do when they don't eat. They have dreams of establishing a household, of earning a decent wage that can support a family and give their children a future. They aspire to have meaning in their lives. How different are they from you, personally? They speak a different language. That can be learned. They were born on another side of some line in the sand. Lines can be redrawn or wiped away entirely. They are human, spiritual beings much like yourself. So why do you wish to push them away, make them suffer, distroy their aspirations for a future life. Because of a line in the sand. The Roman empire was once defined as a line in the sand. What happened to it. All lines in the sand change over time. The human element does not. Our forefathers saw this. They devised the Bill of Rights to protect what they consider universal human rights given to us by God. How close are we to God when we create artificial barriers between his children? What is a family if brother fights against brother? The name of our country, "United States of America" does not define a citizen or grouping of people, because all of north America and South America is America. All are considered "Americans." So, why do we divide if we define ourselves by an inclusive name "American." It just shows we are double faced. We act as we are an open society, but the other face is close minded, racist, and uncaring.

This whole thing reminds me of a line from a political Satire a long time back.

Press: What do you plan to do about the issue of illegal liquor?
Politician: Make it legal.

If we are in favor of enforcing the law, lets start with motor vehicle laws. This morning 95% of the motorist on the roads were illegals. 95% were breaking the speed limit, tail gating, driving in HOV, failing to yield, failing to stop completely at a light or stop sign, failing to slow down at a yellow light. Vehicle accidents cause tens of thousand of deaths a year, most could be prevented if motorist obey the law. Thousands more are injured. Billions are lost due to car accidents. Yet, where is the public get heated up to enforce these laws.

All of you are hypocrites.

BTW, does everyone notice how the media are always trying to say how "ambivalent" and "conflicted" the views of Americans are on illegal immigration, when the polls are always crystal clear? We want a wall, we want employer enforcement, we want an END to illegal immigration. And we're going to get it. No confusion, Mr. Fisher, and no ambivalence.

You at the Post have a "thing" against writing illegal as the modifier for immigrants in this issue. Why is that so?

Give me a break, Mark. People going 10 mph over the speed limit on their way to work aren't the same as people breaking into the country and using billions of dollars worth of taxpayer-funded resources.

And BTW, you wanna talk car accidents? Illegals have VERY high rates of drunk driving. Another reason to build the wall, enforce hiring laws, and end our illegal alien problem! That's what Mexico does with its illegals -- we can do it too. Si se puede!!

After the protests/boycotts & the latest elections, I'm just wondering again, why is that the US can't enforce it's laws when it comes to Illegal immigrants ? People say there are 11 million illegal aliens & it would be impossible to deport all of them. Here's a NEWS FLASH - there's over 280+ million residents in the US, yet we effectively enforce traffic laws every day ! Apparently the US gov't will enforce it's laws, but only selectively.

You are right, going 10 mph over the speed limit is much different. At higher speeds, the rate of fatally killing someone or causing an accident increases. Illegal immigration does not risk killing anyone. It might actually prevent their children from starving. However, speeding puts you and other innocent people's lives at risk. There is a monumental difference. Any way, a law is a law, right!

RJB, sorry for using your name. It was an accident.

The title posted on the web page was "In the Privacy of the Booth, No to Immigrants", while the actual vote and the clear intent of the voters was No to ILLEGAL Immigrants, quite a different sentiment.

Of course, the article itself says in the first paragraph, "in the privacy of the voting booth, they appeared to send a clear message: They do not want their town to cater to illegal immigrants."

The Post can't even make a headline that reflects the content of the story 3 lines down in the article?

The problem - the word illegal.
The thought of laws being disregarded.
Stealing, because you need the food. Oh it's okay.

Solution - decrimialize the person. Will send a mix message to american children. We can change the rules if a lot of people complain.

Although you clarify your the meaning of your title in your article, it would be more helpful that you include the word "illegal" to immigrants.

The American people don't oppose immigrants, they welcome them. They oppose ILLEGAL immigrants, no matter where they come from.

When the "illegal" is left out when speaking of illegal aliens, it portrays the Americans as a xenophobic lot. Nothing further from the truth.

Dear President Bush:

I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this.I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports,immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here.
So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.
2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might
need, whether I use them or not.
3. All government forms need to be printed in English.
4 I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.
5.. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.
6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the
flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.
7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and
lunch.
8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy
access to government services.
9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any
effort to learn local traffic laws.
10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the
memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all
police officers speak English.
11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals
on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not
want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.
12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes,
and don't enforce any labor laws or tax laws.
13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice
and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might
place on the economy.

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him
nicely.

However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P.

Thank you so much for your kind help

One reader posted the strawman that full enforcement of immigration laws would mean mass deportations. What a canard. Enforcement of the laws against employers would mean that EMPLOYERS would be subject to penalties for breaking the law, and that illegal aliens would gradually leave through inability to find jobs. Yes, this would be slow. Yes, this would mean verification systems and better ID, but we need that anyway. We know that a lack of standards and verifiability for identification, and the inability to share information is behind our intelligence failures. If our credit card companies and reporting bureaus can do this, why not the federal government?

As for Orgon's plea to humanity, well, perhaps he should be directing his pleas to the countries that these illegal aliens come from. I have total sympathy and a willingness to accept true political refugees, but economic migrants are the responsibility of their homelands, not mine. Illegal aliens show, from their first step in this country, that they do not have the same values that we do, namely respect for law and order. How many illegal aliens does it take until that lack of respect pervades our country?

How nice of you to write this article. You finally reported some truth! The people of America are sick and tired of illegal aliens claiming they have a right to everything! Sick and tired of it. They want to take back California, Arizona and Texas. More to follow! You guys in the liberal media won't even call the protests what they are...which is protests by illegal immigrants! In my opinion, they have no rights. I say round them all up at these work areas and any protests and deport them back! We are flooded with paying for their way here! We are sick and tired of being pushed around. The politicians do not represent us they represent the minority in this country and I have had enough as I have had enough of watching and reading liberal media articles and news!

For anyone wanting to send a message to their representatives about border enforcement, check out this innovative site:
http://www.send-a-brick.com/

I'm sorry, but I didn't see Mr. Fisher take a positon one way or the other on this issue, despite people on this blog saying that he's a mushy-headed liberal on this.

25% of the voters have spoken.

Another way to look at it 13% of the registered voters of Herndon have said that they don't like a day laborer center.

I have a solution to the financial mess of states. All American citizens who drop out of highschool should not get any public benefits. If a citizen can't even graduate highschool, why should they get free medical care, welfare, food stamps, child tax credit, etc. They are a drain. They are lazy bumbs. Let them rot. While we are on this point. If I pay taxes and for medical insurance, then why do I pay for some to get medical care free, legal or illegal? I'm sick of it. All lazy bumbs and lazy employers should be made to contribute their fare share. It is not of legal vs illegal. Its that there are lazy bumb businesses and american citizens that are parasites to society. Also, all those who cheat on taxes should by put in prison. This will get our finances in order better than kicking out hard working illegals.

One thing I never see in this discussion is - what if the illegals were Irish? Or Italian? Would we be having quiet as strong a reaction? What if the illegals spoke fluent English? As long as some posit arguements along the lines of "I can spot an illegal a mile away", I will never feel truly comfortable siding with the anti-immigrant faction in this.

Also, I don't hear alot about raising federal taxes to properly fund our border patrol. These things cost money, and as long as we propagate the myth that it doesn't, I can't see how we can move towards useful, measured solutions.

Marc, I agree with the other posters. The headline title of your blog entry is EXTREMELY misleading. The people of Herdon said no to ILLEGAL immigration, not to immigration. Please change it to reflect the content of your article. This is the major flaw in the debate on this issue - the failure to distinguish LEGAL immigration from ILLEGAL immigration.

That was my point yesterday is it really a mandate when less than 10% of the people vote

Mark,

It's a sign of how weak the pro-illegal arguments are that the best you can do is throw up these straw-man hypotheticals to try to confuse the issue. If you think people who go 10 mph over the speed limit are just as much criminals as people who sneak into the country and use our schools, hospitals, prisons, roads, etc. without permission or paying for it, you're in a very small minority.

And actually, people who go 10 mph over the speed limit *are* punished more than illegals. I got a $50 ticket for going 11 mph over the speed limit on Macarthur Blvd -- and it probably paid for some illegal's food stamps (I see them cashing their food stamp checks all the time at Safeway).

It's an outrage already. Build the wall, employer enforcement, and watch our illegal problem self-deport.

Right on Herndon! You stepped up to the plate and set a precedent. We do not reward law breakers such as illegal aliens. I am sick and tired of this country losing billions, and spending billions because of illegal aliens. They have no right to work here, protest here, free hospitaliztion, overcrowd our schools, steal our Social Security numbers, etc. They are ILLEGAL. There are millions of people waiting to enter this counntry legally, that will take their jobs in a second. How about we all protest in Mexico? We're tired of supporting you Vicente Fox...take them back, or we'll send them back! This is not over. America has spoken!

I think some people who are making the distinction between "legal" and "illegal" immigration don't realize the extent to which the problem is created by the laws, not by the immigrants.

The interesting thing about the election is how close it was; of 2600 votes, only 130-200 votes separated winners and losers. The demographic trend suggests that many young Hispanics will be becoming voters soon. Many pro-immigrant voters are simply surprised that the change hasn't already affected majority sentiment; the status quo isn't likely to last much longer.

I agree with some of the others, the headline on this article is very misleading. The voters did not say NO to all immigrants, just illegal ones.

Al, Fred and several others of you are correct--the banner over this blog item should have had the word "illegal" in it, and now it does. Headlines are of course shorthand, and sometimes they're too short. Thanks for making the case for the change.

Why is there any fretting over what may happen to the illegal aliens if they close the Herndon center? People are getting concerned that they may once again congregate in front of the 7-11? Just DEPORT them! Why is this so complicated? The have no rights. Get rid of them, and keep them out once they're gone.

Join me in burning the Mexican flag this "cinqo de mayo" (May 5th to Americans). When did "Cinqo de Mayo" become an American holiday? I don't want to hear any more about this crappy piece of mexicana. Burn the mexican flag, baby, burn.

The entire debate of calling the 12 million people already here "immigrants" vs. "illegal immigrants" strikes me a deeply ingenuous. A government that does not enforce laws on the books and allows undocumented people to enter the country for decades and becomes systematically habituated to the cheap labor and economic prosperity that they bring has no moral authority to retro-actively label these people as "illegal". They are illegal because our (changeable) laws describe them as such. It used to be illegal for black folks to eat at a white lunch counter. The sit-ins were "illegal" but civil disobedience and rational discourse changed the hearts and minds of the people and thus the laws.

While we can argue about whether or not they SHOULD be here, the fact remains that they ARE here. A sudden withdrawl of this pool of labor would devestate the economy and our (mostly) comfortable middle-class standard of living. The immigrants are here. Integrate them. Encourage them to Americanize. Move them (and their children) up the economic foodchain.

Laws are fluid and often require change. Since deportation is not an option for those already here. We must integrate and move on. The debate should be about rationalizing (legalizing) our demand for labor. Let people-skilled and unskilled-have a chance to improve the Country.

Orgon said:

Mark,

It's a sign of how weak the pro-illegal arguments are that the best you can do is throw up these straw-man hypotheticals to try to confuse the issue. If you think people who go 10 mph over the speed limit are just as much criminals as people who sneak into the country and use our schools, hospitals, prisons, roads, etc. without permission or paying for it, you're in a very small minority.

I don't think this was Marc Fisher. It's not likely Marc would have misspelled his own name.

As a legal immigrant who filled out the immigration forms, paid the filing fees, spent years patiently waiting in the immigration queue, got a physical, got an AIDS test, and finally traveled hundreds of miles to get interviewed by a staff at the American consulate, I AM OUTRAGED AT THE ILLEGALS!

They simply walk across a border and claim the right to stay?

That is a slap in my face!

No THS, there's a poster named Mark on this thread, not Marc Fisher, who spells it with a C.

Marc Fisher: thanks for changing the headline on the blog post. But on the front page of WashingtonPost.com, it still says ""no to immigrants," which is false.

How long would any of us continue to buy metro farecards and walk through the turnstyles "legally" if, day-after-day we observed others joining us on the train after we watched them jump over the turnstyles?

Ellis Island symbolizes an orderly, lawful, process.

"No THS, there's a poster named Mark on this thread, not Marc Fisher, who spells it with a C."

Yes, that's the point I was making.

THS wrote:

"The belief that, as a nation, we have either the will or the ability to simply stop illegal immigration, or that it would be wise to do so, doesn't seem justified by the facts on the ground."

I don't mind people disagreeing with me on illegal immigration, but if you're open borders, just come out and say so, instead of relying on this "we can't do anything to stop illegal immigration" garbage.

Sure we can. For $4 billion we could build a fence on the entire US-Mexico border. That's the amount we're wasting in Iraq every month. Then for a pittance the government could enforce its laws and go after a few employers for real -- no need to spend much new money or pass new laws, since they're already on the books.

Without jobs and with a fence in the way, the flow of illegals into the country stops quickly. Those already here largely self-deport after their jobs are gone. Problem solved, very quickly, very cheaply.

So if you want open borders, try to make your case plainly. There aren't many convincing arguments in favor of open borders or our current "system," however, which is why people try to fall back on the weak "we can't stop illegal immigration" argument.

Build the wall. Si se puede!

"Ellis Island symbolizes an orderly, lawful, process."

I'm curious about what happened at Ellis Island. Were there standards people had to meet? I know there were health checks of some sort, but all the stories about people arriving with $5 in their pockets suggest there were no income requirements. Certainly there were no education or language requirements. Were visas required? Did people become citizens if they met whatever minimal requirements were imposed on entry to the U.S., or did they have to meet some citizenship requirement after living here for some time? If so, what were those requirements?

I'm not saying that the standards that were used in the early 20th century should necessarily apply, but it would be interesting to know what was required to be "legal" at various points in history. Certainly many of the earliest European immigrants simply showed up, stepped ashore, and started making their way as best they could.

The people of Herndon did not vote. Of the population of 23000 only 3000 thousand voted. That represents 13% of the population. Of the 3000, 58% were for the incumbent which represents 1740 people.
How can you say that this is a vote of confidence ?
The Minutemen are a bunch of racists and they are very similar to the KKK. They should not be doing the job that the government should be doing.
We have an immigration system that is severely broken. The Kennedy-McCain bill in my opinion will not even stop the illegals from entering the country.
There must be another way to fix the immigration issue.
The INS is in a huge backlog since 2001. Can you imagine how much more congestion there will be in their system if the new Bill gets passed.
In the past the government addressed the illegal immigration issue by giving illelegals amnesty in various forms, but it was a form of amnesty. So if you are an illelegal immigrant, why not wait for amnesty. It will happen.
Regarding the protesters, I have sympathy for them. They are the people that are keeping the country running. However they have broken a law by coming here illelegally in the first place.
If you apply the law in some areas and do not do so in other areas it leads to lawlessness.
The government needs to fix the immigration soon and the issues on the table right now do not.

Ben wrote:

"A government that does not enforce laws on the books and allows undocumented people to enter the country for decades and becomes systematically habituated to the cheap labor and economic prosperity that they bring has no moral authority to retro-actively label these people as "illegal".

Wrong. A government has every right to enforce its laws, even if enforcement has been lax in the past.

"It used to be illegal for black folks to eat at a white lunch counter."

Right, and that was an injustice. So Ben, tell the people what that situation has in common with millions of people breaking into our country and demanding costly benefits they have no legal or moral right to. We're waiting.

"We're conflicted, and so our votes conflict with one another."

No, my friend. You may be conflicted, because you must serve your masters at the politically correct Washington Post; we are not conflicted. Mass Third World immigration, legal or illegal, is insanity.

See how easy it is when you don't have to play the "on the one hand, on the other hand" game that is required of you?

I think one problem associated with understanding the effects of immigration on the U.S. is that the costs are focused, but the benefits are diffuse.

That is, we can fairly easily determine the immigration status of an ER patient, a criminal defendant, or even a school child, and we can then calculate the cost in public services of dealing with that person. It's more difficult to calculate (or, at least, for non-economists to observe directly) the benefits in terms of increased GDP, social security taxes paid by people who cannot collect benefits, and other taxes (e.g., sales taxes).

One recent study, conducted by a highly skilled economist, showed that the benefits slightly outweighed the costs. The same study indicated that the presence of illegal immigrants in the labor force suppressed wages by 3-5%, but only for citizens who had not graduated from high school. Another study showed an 8% effect for the same category of workers.

Other reports have indicated that patterns and rates of assimilation for Spanish-speaking immigrants (mainly w/ regard to language learning) are fairly similar to those of immigrants from other locations--Asia, for instance.

I think those concerned with the "billions and billions" that illegal immigration costs do not really have all the facts.

Kill the immigrants.

Instead of worrying about Illegal immigrants maybe everyone should turn their faces to the war in Iraq. Seems to me that this is a more important topic then anything going on in this country.

Also weren't we all immigrants at one point?

Enforce illegal immigration laws all you want. Just don't complain when a head of lettuce costs $8. And criticize the employers/enablers who make illegal immigration possible and attractive.

I was never an immigrant.

I'm guessing Joyce is a pro-open borders troll.

Herndon resident: no, we weren't all immigrants at one point. It really speaks volumes about how arrowless the quiver of pro-illegal arguments has become when they have to fall back on semantic games like Mark's speeding analogy above and the whole "no human being is illegal" crap. Try immigrating illegally to Mexico and let us know what happens. I'll be sure to visit you at that prison in Chiapas.

Chris writes:

"Enforce illegal immigration laws all you want. Just don't complain when a head of lettuce costs $8."

Still waiting for quality pro-illegal immigrant arguments to roll in. Needless to say, a head of lettuce will not cost $8 if we enforce our immigration laws. It may cost a dime more temporarily, but then US agriculture will mechanize quickly, and the cost will likely be lower than it was when illegals picked the lettuce.

The massive influx of cheap labor illegals have provided over the past few decades has severely disincentivized American agribusinesses from investing money in mechanization of their harvesting processes. This would change with enforcement of our laws.

Si se puede! Build the wall.

A country cannot control immigration without first securing it's borders. It's 4.5 years since 9/11 & our borders are still not secure ! When will our representatives get a clue !

Why do I keep hearing this babble about compassion and sympathy for the plight of illegal immigrants and nothing about the long term cost of paying for the compassion and sympathy?

Most illegal immigrants from Mexico are unskilled labor. As a result these immigrants will be a drain on society for minimum 20 years. And this is assuming they get assimilated and hopefully their kids graduate and become productive members of society in 20 years time. IF they pay any taxes on their wages, their net cost in medicare, school services, housing costs will still put them in a net negative cost on the community. Should we make them legal and allow them to import their extended families, we would be facing a bigger net drain on our resources. I've read studies that the illegals are a 1% net economic gain for the US but none of those studies incorporate the costs in social services for the illegals and the low skilled citizens they displaced.

If 11 million US citizens illegally crossed the border into Mexico and marched in the streets of Mexico City demanding rights as a Mexican citizen, there would most likely be 11 million US citizens rotting in the corrupt Mexican jail cells. Well maybe only half the marchers since the other half would have bribed the cops.

Mexico should quit using the US as their social safety net and fix their own screwed up system.

"It may cost a dime more temporarily, but then US agriculture will mechanize quickly, and the cost will likely be lower than it was when illegals picked the lettuce.

The massive influx of cheap labor illegals have provided over the past few decades has severely disincentivized American agribusinesses from investing money in mechanization of their harvesting processes. This would change with enforcement of our laws."

I would be interested in learning which crops are susceptible to mechanization of the sort you describe. American agriculture is already heavily mechanized. Given the cost and uncertainty associated with human labor and the incentives to machinery manufacturers to invent and market machines, I'd be surprised if many of the tasks now carried out by agricultural laborers--mainly picking fruits and vegetables--could be effectively mechanized. My father is a farmer, who uses "stoop labor" for only one task. Recruiting and housing people for a job that takes only a couple of weeks is not always easy. If it could be mechanized, I think it would be.

This is not a Democratic v Republican issue. Recently under the auspices of Frank Wolfe, the Herndon POlice Chief was sent to El Salvador to a conference on gang violence:
http://www.timescommunity.com/site/tab5.cfm?newsid=16544371&BRD=2553&PAG=461&dept_id=511691&rfi=6

These people contribute very little to our society. If meat packing plants need workers, let them recruit in the rust belt areas with high unemployment. What about recruiting people for industry who used to have jobs in the Mississippi delta and pay them relocation expenses? I have no symapthy for chicken processing plants. I have even less sympathy for somebody who hasn't run a vacuum in 5 years. One fellow who was very briefly a day laborer advised against hiring them since most who are of good character and reputable do not stay in that labor pool very long.

Note the machete mutilations over the last few years.

Where are these people so set upon the rule of law when our own president is breaking UN rules with his Iraq ´preemptive strike´ or violating Geneva conventions with torture in prisons, or our own laws with internal spying and Guantanamo detentions? Do they realize the USA became free by ignoring British laws and powerful by breaking treaties with its own indigenous people, or forcing Mexico and Spain at the end of a gun into giving up its territory, which is SURPRISE full of citizens atuned to Spanish culture. Go find some real family values and human compassion in your failed conservatism which only honors the rich and powerful. Its laughable to call for a 'great wall' of the USA... like hungry people care where governments draw lines. Look where it got China... a quick Mongol invasion but a fine modern tourist attraction! That's what you want to spend tax dollars and public policy on, a future relic. Like hopefully what the neocons in this country will soon become if the country ever returns to its real values... hard work and the American Dream of economic success, which is all these poor people seek. Maybe Herndon will build its own city wall and return to a civic model abandoned in the middle ages!

Marc Fisher --

Again, thanks for changing the blog post headline. But the headline on the front page of WashingtonPost.com still says:

Raw Fisher: A Clear Message: No to Immigrants. That is obscene, since that wasn't the message at all. The message was no to *illegal* immigrants.

The Post does this all the time, so forgive us we don't think the headline writer was just pressed for time. Marcela Sanchez, Ruth Marcus, Emily Messner -- they're *constantly* trying to blur the distinction between legal and illegal immigrants. Do they think their readers are that stupid?

To say this is an issue of "law and order" or that people should be penalized for breaking the law is simplistic, ignores the historical record and does not ask what I view as the real question: why are the immigration laws the way they are now so as to make these folks illegal in the first place?

Immigration laws have not always been the way they are now; our country as a long, sorry history of allowing "desired" groups in, while keeping "undesirables" (first, the Irish and Eastern Europeans, later Asians, now Latinos) out - a distinction almost always drawn on racial and/or religious lines. Then, as now, the same arguments were made against the "illegals" - they would steal jobs from Americans, etc. Ultimately, those fears turned out to be unfounded and America became a richer, more vibrant place because of them.

(As an aside it is very ironic, to say the least, that, after the ancestors of white Europeans took the Americas from their native inhabitants, we now seek to penalize immigrants coming into this country who by and large are descended, in whole or in part, from those Native Americans from whom we took the land in the first place).

I have yet to see a satisfactory explanation of why we should be so eager to declare the (mostly) Latino immigrants illegal and punish them when, in the past, we have willingly opened the floodgates to white Europeans. To say, as some have said, this is not a racial issue or one of prejudice, is a joke.

THS,

We put a man on the moon -- decades ago -- so I think we can mechanize the harvesting of lettuce heads and oranges. The problem is that big ag has little incentive to mechanize since they have a constant pool of very cheap labor (whose social costs big ag does NOT pick up).

Take away their cheap source of labor, and American ingenuity will get the heads of lettuce plucked real efficiently. Japan has been mechanizing many of their industries since the 1970s instead of relying on cheap illegal immigration, since they wisely realize that the social costs of allowing massive thrid world immigration into their country far outweighs the benefits.

Hispanics are trying to demographically take over America, and if anyone takes issue with that they are decried as "racist."

Here's how the takeover happens:

1) Millions of hispanics (who have more kids than the average American) illegally enter the US.

2) The hispanics then demand proportionate representation in the professional world (affirmative action) and political arena. They insist that since they have large numbers that it's racist to not have an equivalent representation in these areas.

3) With greater political clout the hispanics then snowball this phenomenon. They create greater pressure to open our country up to their "raza," and around and around we go.

4) Before you know it they will have taken over. Because in a democracy, POPULATION (demos) EQUALS POWER.

Epilogue: The majority hispanic USA becomes a Third World country, and is ruined.

Mike DC,

Assimilation takes time. We've had historical periods of high immigration followed by periods of low immigration to allow the melting pot to work its magic.

The people on this thread (except for troll Joyce) aren't anti-immigrant. They're anti-illegal immigrant. Too many immigrants is like having having too much spice on your food: it ruins the meal. Just the right amount of spice is wonderful, however. Right now we've got way too many illegals, and it's time to put an end to that so America can remain great and not slide into thrid world status. If you think that's an exaggeration, I've got lists of cities in the Southwest for you to visit.

To Soulie:

If somehow 12 million, say, Lithuanians managed to sneak into the country and then demanded citizenship, I guarantee you the liberal media would scream bloody murder.

I believe I read an economic study that showed farm labor was ~6% of produce costs so $8 lettuce seems unlikely. The WP article Sunday talked of the benefits of illegals' labor as did another poster. It seems to me that the benefits go mostly to the upper class and corporations and that the middle and lower classes carry the burden. For example, illegal groundskeeping workers make it affordable but I can't afford even that and must do it myself. But a hospital that provides free care to illegals has to pass that cost on to all - including me. The Sunday article talked of cheap labor at a pricey DC restaurant and how without that labor it would be too expensive. Well it's too expensive for the middle and lower class already so where's our economic benefit. And please, WP, be honest and truthful and use illegal when writing about the issue.

For one, I think if the undocumented were canadians, we won't be having this issue. And I can't help but think that most of these "right wingers" who are now aligning with extreme groups like the KKK, would've stood against Civil Right marchers.

We've all fallen short of his mercy...

Kill the americans! You don't like that so much do you!

Radical organizers,anti-American groups,
gay and lisbion groups,illegal immigrants, and terrorist groups do not speak for
AMERICA.
All that they have accomplished is,
WAKENING A SLEEPING GIANT.

Orgon you are incorrect about Japan. Their population demographic is starting to shift heavily towards old retirees. They NEED a big immigration boost in order to find employees who will pay for the pensions of all those retirees. The social cost of their zealous anti-immigration policies is coming back to bite them.

THS, recently a new machine to harvest cranberries was just introduced. It was a simple spring device that was a vast improvement over the previous machine since it did less damage to the plant. There are machines that will harvest fruits but less efficiently than pickers and more costly. Tomato farmers complained that they would go out of business without cheap labor. When their source of labor was diminished, they quickly produced a machine to harvest their crop and are now still thriving. Just because a machine has not been envisioned does not preclude it from being developed at some future date. With enough incentive, anything can be accomplished in the land of opportunity.

We need immigration to keep a vibrant democracy alive, we don't need waves of illegal immigration seeking to suborn the foundations of that democracy.

Sly Domber,

Please let us know who's been "aligning with extreme groups like the KKK". I'm really curious to know.

Again, the weakness of the arguments on the pro-illegal side is striking, especially in contrast to the simple logic on the pro-enforcement side.

Game over. Herndon is just the beginning and the politicians know it. The wall is on its way.

And why did the WP bury in the Sunday paper the news report of the conviction of a man guilty of bringing hundreds mid-eastern men into the country through Mexico? Maybe none were or will become dangerous, but isn't this a security issue worth interjecting into the border discussion?

Frankly, I think people who are here illegally and then demonstrated and went on strike for their "rights," overplayed their hand. It would be offensive in any country, including the Latin American countries from which many migrants originate, for illegal migrants to demonstrate in the streets in a foreign language demanding their "rights" as citizens when, in fact, they are here by subterfuge. It's ironic that some Central American countries actually round up and expel illegal aliens from another, neighboring Central American country; but that discussion is for another time and another day.

At the same time, the hypocrisy shown by many native-born Americans who on one hand employ illegal migrants and then decry their presence here, needs to stop. What I advocate is: control the border, enforce the laws, and then decide how many people from which countries you need here and for what purpose and certify individuals for work. As for undocumented migrants that are already here: the federal gov't needs a policy of accommodating only those that are needed in the numbers that are needed, certifying them for employment, and placing severe penalties on employers that hire noncertified workers. These iniatives would end the bitterness that is infesting our national policy debates.

Mexico can have Texas back if they want it, but Arizona is rather nice - let's keep that one.

i am the daughter of a hispanic immigrant (legal) and i am completely disgusted by the extreme nativist sentiment i see here. i was born and raised in this country and i've loved it like no other. this is my home but i don't feel welcome anymore. i feel scared i'm going to be attacked by one of you people. i have a college degree from a prestigious university and i still get questioned if i'm even legal! i speak perfect english and write very well...my test scores consistently put me in the top 90th percentile of students. if anything, my spanish is a bit rusty! and still i feel threatened...

what are you people so scared of? i mean, really...what the heck are you so freakin scared of? and don't give me the tired "oh they're taking away public services" crap because you're the same people that say that about "lazy blacks" or "welfare queens" even though they (and immigrants) have jobs and put more money into the economy than take from it. please give me some educated thoughts instead of inane babble...

PTT,

Funny, the Japanese don't feel they "NEED a big immigration boost," as you put it. They realize that immigration would tear up the fabric of their fragile, rules-oriented society, and they haven't allowed that to happen. And they have indeed become the world leader in robotics as they creatively find ways to avoid mass third world immigration.

...I believe that "we" has been used far too easily, in this article.

For one I don't believe the immigration system is "broken".

Just on that issue alone, what would you change about it, and why?

It could be faster, but then, have you ever had a background check?

These things take time and money and you should be glad -very glad- that the US government is willing to do them at no cost for each and every person who applies for a US visa.

Still, as they say in the US courts, it is what it is, and one must work within the system, yes?

And it is not like an illegal cannot get a work permit or residency here. And if you consider it "broken" for that reason, that is something I'd agree with.

But they should AT LEAST TRY to be here legally.

Instead of trying to get the law changed or skipping across the border.

To THS

Yes, Ellis Island was a "gate," people working there were "gatekeepers" and people seeking entry - most of them - passed through the gate.

The presence of detailed records and absence of any "notorious Ellis Island riots" is ample proof that things were orderly.

Between 1979 and 1994, the UN and our State Department administered the Orderly Departure Program ODP and oversaw the relatively smooth introduction of 500,000 Vietnamese into our Country, with the assistence of faith-based organizations and sponsors.

I am just trying to get the concept of orderliness into the dialog.

Of course a mob at the Bastille does not want to discuss the topic of order or orderliness.

So, however the outcome falls, make it an orderly process. My spouse completed all applications, paid all fees, waited six years after lawful entry to our country and was Naturalized a year ago.

The process will require patience.

Disgusted,

Thanks for your post. Would you elaborate on why you "don't feel welcome" in the United States anymore? I'm curious to know.

Also, I hate to be the one to break this to you, but you certainly don't "write very well."

Mexico set to legalize personal amounts of pot, cocaine, heroin

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/04/28/mexico.drugs.ap/

Is this the kind of family values you mean when you say that they don't stop at the Rio Grande President Bush ?

Let's say it one more time....Americans aren't against immigrants but they ARE against ILLEGAL immigration. For some reason, the ILLEGAL part gets left out repeatedly by the media and politicians. We respect the rule of law, even if our so-called leaders don't. How can parents teach their children to be law abiding citizens when their elected officials fail to even acknowledge the laws and those who break them?

How do you legalize most of 12 million (estimated) illegal immigrants, with no documentation or background information?

Isn't that a core reasoning why the proposal is that illegal immigrants return to their native countries and re-enter legally and documented?

Vice versa, if I were an illegal immigrant, what would motivate me to leave a job where I make 4 times more? Isn't it obvious the existing laws and enforcement are simply a joke?

And unless we're talking about blanket immunity for ALL illegal immigrants, than isn't that all the more unfair?

Orgon, some Japanese towns are now paying women to have kids. What does that tell you about the desperation?

When 3 workers pay for 1 retiree and in 20 years 1 worker pays for 1 retiree, what do you think happens to the budget? Just look at our Social Security problem now. Japan has a much more extensive and costly social welfare program. Ponzi schemes depend on more new players each generation and since Japan is facing a net population decrease, the gig is up unless they find more new players somewhere. Hey look that means immigration.

Someone has to pay those social security taxes and robots don't do that.

Wow...I don't recognize this country I was born in and have long come to love. I am pro-open borders, I am opposed to any kind of fence separating our country with any other country. I am willing to spend tax dollars to help folks in this country who are here by whatever means. I am concerned about security, but I am not paranoid. Stopping illegal immigration will not radically change our economy, but improving, expanding, and expediting the legal immigration procedures will greatly improve our country.

Oh, and Herndon voters, I have come often to your town for various events, including the Herndon Festival and other activities. I am going to think twice now. I don't want to do anything which will support the prejudice I see expressed by this recent vote.

Thanks.

Hey "Disgusted,"

If you feel threatened then its because you sympathize with the illegal aliens. You're hispanic, and you probably don't mind the thought of a hispanic takeover. If you feel disgusted then its probably because you disgust yourself.

Don't deny the fact that hispanics are trying to take over this country.

wow, so much to read, but I spy a good question amongst the muck.

"To say this is an issue of "law and order" or that people should be penalized for breaking the law is simplistic, ignores the historical record and does not ask what I view as the real question: why are the immigration laws the way they are now so as to make these folks illegal in the first place? "

well, ignoring the historical record for a brief moment, they are illegal because they entered the country illegally. They do not have a visa to work in the US. They don't even have a visa to enter the US.

Now, why is this?

This is where the historical record comes into play.

However, given that, they still are illegal, the moment they decided to sneak in, and, they are illegal as they work here illegally. It is not just one or the other, it is both together. If they could not work here they would not come here, but, they came here, illegally, and they work here, illegally.

It is like a robber who then keeps the goods he steals. It's not just one crime.

Now they want the title so they have legal ownership of the goods.

Mexico and most of the countries in South America have emigrated so many citizens to the US that the USCIS (renamed INS) quotas for emigration visas for these countries are very low. And as well, so many of their citizens have overstayed their visas, and been denied visas for other reasons (technical), that their approval rate is so low that they are not on the VEP list. The Visa Exchange Program countries can just walk to US points of entry and present their passport and come in.

It is not a complicated issue. It is an issue of ignorance (much of it purposeful), and an issue of widespread lawbreaking.

These people would not be worried about being illegal, if they would be legal or if we continued to turn our heads to their being and working here illegally. But they don't want to be legal, and we are not tolerating their illegal activities. It's that simple.

If they wanted to be legal they would leave, or at least APPLY for US residency. There is a way to do this, and it does happen.

It just does not happen "like that".

not nearly as easy as it was for them to sneak in across the border and find a job.

WAY more complicated than that.

And that is the issue now.

PTT writes:

"Orgon, some Japanese towns are now paying women to have kids. What does that tell you about the desperation?"

France is doing it, too. It's called the natalist movement, and it's not "desperation" -- it's a rational national reaction to a problem (low birth rates). It's far more desirable -- and cost-effective -- than importing tens of millions of illegal immigrants.

Whoa Joyce it's not that serious, and when did America become so "fair". America was built on sneaking arcoss borders, but in the past we sailed over on ships, stole food and made it a holiday.

I see lots of post about our tax dollars being spent to help illegals find work. Where do you think they spend the money? Then I read about the wages being lowered because of illegal workers. Thats BS because you folks wouldn't do those jobs if they offered decent salaries and good benifits. I just don't see most backlashers working in the fast food industry, but I do see plenty of soccer moms pulling up in drive thru's buying happy meals for the winning team.

At the end of the day it's about survival, as a Black man in America I learned this a long time ago. You work hard and provide for your family. If it's legal thats good, but if you have to hop a fence and work for $7.00 and hour then do it.

You can't justify a pro-illegal stance by making up stories about the anti-illegal people breaking the law.

I would like to see the illegals legalized, but I don't wink at the law and hire the illegals, and I am more than willing to pay what it takes to support legal workers.

I'm not winking at any laws and I don't like the implication that I am.

Let's say it one more time....Americans aren't against immigrants but they ARE against ILLEGAL immigration. For some reason, the ILLEGAL part gets left out repeatedly by the media and politicians. We respect the rule of law, even if our so-called leaders don't.

To PTT: Robots will pay taxes in the not too distant future, then become self aware, rise up and destroy us all - saw it in some movie once.

BTW, folks, America didn't "steal" this land from the Indians -- we won it through war.

If you've got a problem with that, realize that most dominant ethnic groups in most countries right now also acquired their land that way.

Not "stolen" -- "won".

ps

to "disgusted"...

clearly you are the one who is scared. Not me.

you should find the courage to confront the obvious answer to your own questions.

If so many of your fellow Latinos were not here breaking the law on a daily basis and hiding behind each other, then you would not have so much to worry about, yes?

You have just seen millions of Latinos marching the streets and demanding US citizenship for illegal aliens, for people who have invaded our country and who continue to break our laws on a daily basis and you ask why *WE* are scared?

This is not about US being scared. It is about LATINOS being scared. That the bill is coming due for the milk that their illegal relatives and friends are stealing.

Just as it is not about anti IMMIGRATION.

It is about anti ILLEGAL immigration.

If your friends can stay here legally, more power to you. But that is a weight we all have to carry and it simply is not fair or right for Latinos to get a pass just because they march or threaten to vote. Obeying the law is a part of being an American citizen. No one should get an exception to the law, and those who break it must expect the consequences.

And if you truly want to be an American, you have to accept this.

Whoah. Nothing in all my posts supports waves of illegal immigration.

I AM against using Japan as an example of good immigration policy. Their policy is xenophobic no immigration allowed at all. That is why the US and NOT Japan as you incorrectly suppose leads the world in innovation. Our universities and research centers our populated by the best minds the world over because of our acceptance of LEGAL immigration.

Paying natives to breed is moronic. The stupid ones already breed too much so why would you give them more money? So they can create more welfare kids? The smart ones would calculate that your one time payout is peanuts compared to the cost of raising a college educated child.

Once again, illegal immigration bad. Legal immigration good. NO immigration stupid.

Mexicans are leeches. They are parasites sucking the lifeblood of our country.

Why can't these latin american countries fix themselves? If these people are "in search of a better life," (as they always say) why can't they work at improving their lives at home?

If they came here and tried to actually assimilate I'd probably feel more sympathetic to them. But the fact is they are colonizing us. WHFS is now spanish-language. There are probably four spanish-language channels on basic cable alone. I can't use a phone or ATM menu without first specifying that yes, I want to proceed in english.

Face the facts- they don't want to come and be Americans. They want to come and reap the benefits of the nation we have created (and then proclaim in their marches that they built this nation) and change America to accomodate them and their ways. I don't like that. I don't like the fact that if I have a problem with this de facto hispanic INVASION that I am condemned (as a racist). It actually waters down the meaning of "racism" if this is all it takes to be one.

PTT writes:

"Once again, illegal immigration bad. Legal immigration good. NO immigration stupid."

I agree that we benefit when we skim the smartest people from countries around the world, as we do now via selective, high-end immigration. But that's not what we're arguing about here.

My point was that Japan has resisted immigration pressures successfully via mechanization for mundane tasks as opposed to bringing in immigrants to do them.

Marc Fisher:

THANK YOU! -- for changing both the headline of your blog post and the headline on the main page of the Post's website to reflect that the vote in Herndon was a strong anti-ILLEGAL immigrant message, not a strong anti-immigrant one.

You go up a click in my esteem. Can we get you to educate Ruth Marcus on this extremely not complex distinction, or would that be pushing our luck?

Blame the catholic church. They told those people to replicate to the point where the Mexican government can no longer guarantee jobs for everyone.

Dear Disgusted:

On a personal level, I've been through this before, so my best advice to you is that it's best to be calm. You are born here so you have a leg-up on the rest of the world. Despite it all, the U.S. still has the best to offer of all the nations.

Unfortunately, and as sad as this is, you had best get used to the angry feelings of non-Hispanic native-born Americans (and, yes, many Hispanic native-born Americans in our midst feel anger an illegal migrants also). The backlash you are experiencing happened in the 19th century to the Irish and after that to Poles, Italians, and other immigrant groups. Why would it not happen now?

My advice to you is to develop a thicker skin and please, oh, please, learn to punctuate your sentences the right way. If you are feeling like you have to be "better" than other people to prove your worth, like you have to prove yourself, that's absolutely right. That's just the way it is.

I learned English at a very young age and despite straight A's and 740 on my verbal SAT, my high school teachers still expressed surprise that I spoke and wrote English well. Education, self-confidence, and an appreciation for what America has to offer will ensure your success. Your success, in turn, will serve to promote the causes of "your people."

Best regards to you.

What do you expect from left wing bleeding heart liberals... This is all about ILLEGAL immigration, not legal immigration, but that`s how the left wing media lumps it together... The people of Herdon have spoken, and are fed up, as are most of the American people... Come November, the American people will speak and the traitors in Washington will be thrown out of office as well!

James wrote: "This is all well and good; however, we aren't getting the best and brightest from other countries. We are getting the destitute and desperate that drive down income levels by accepting meager wages from wretched companies that hire them."

We are getting less of the best and the brightest engineers and scientists from other countries because it has become so difficult and cumbersome for them to receive work visas.

My partner has been working for eight years to receive his green card, all the while paying taxes, contributing to the local economy (i.e. 'shopping a lot'), and not sending one dime out of the US. Meanwhile, there are workers here illegally who may receive amnesty (and their green cards) before him? How wrong is that?

Know that there are a lot of legal immigrants who do not support the illegal immigrant movement here.

wow...this is too emotional for me. you ask why i'm scared? because all i see is HATE in your posts. And i see FEAR on your side of brown people. i bet you think all those mexican gardeners will rape your daughters and eat your children. Idiots!

I'm done with you people. I have work to do, student loans to pay off, a real life to live. oh and CC...let's see...you're white i'm guessing? of course you don't have to be scared! White people are in power...get over yourselves.

frankly, you people are gettin on my last nerves and i'm done wasting my time. posting on this blog will not change anyone's minds. let's all get back to work now. peace out...

All of us who were blessed enough to have been born in this country need to keep in mind that we "native" citizens did nothing to "earn" our citizenship. Of all the events in our lives, the one over which we have the least personal control is the time and place of our birth. True, at some point, someone in our ancestry came to this country, hopefully legally, but that could have been several hundred years ago by now (over 300 in my case.) So any "earned" initial citizenship by an immigrant ancestor has long since been diluted by generations of fortunate timing and placement.

I'm not in favor of illegal immigration. I just think that we native-born citizens need to avoid being sanctimonious in talking about this issue, as though we are somehow responsible for our own citizenship status and that automatically makes us superior to people who were born elsewhere.

The federal government has abdicated it's responsibility.

However, the federal government will not be "addressing" its responsibility if it passes something like the grotesque McCain Kennedy or Hagel Martinez bills, which will radically EXACERBATE, not ameliorate, the problems of the sort experienced by Herndon.

Local governments would then be compelled to get involved way more than they already are.

The "are" in my first paragraph should read "aren't", as in "we **aren't** getting the best and brightest..."

(Clearly I'm not the best and brightest poster today)

to all:

and what is really clear is that it is far easier to skip across the border and find a job picking lettuce for 40x what you would earn 100 miles to the south, than it is to go to college and study 4 years or more to be a scientist or a computer programmer, and then apply for a visa and wait for years and years to get one, or to find an employer who is willing to get an H1 visa for you in some field that Americans would love to work.

These people are ONLY getting here to work in shit jobs that almost no one already here wants to work especially at the salaries offered...or, because they are qualified to do a job that few Americans can do or would do at the salaries offered.

Whichever way they come here.

But one way is legal and also requires a lot of time and hard work, and the other way?

Butt-simple and quick.

Now let me ask you one more time. Why are so many of the poor and ignorant in South America slipping across our border illegally?

Because hundreds of thousands of Americans are offering them what is to them, a lot of money to do it...and, our government is not making it difficult for them to do it, as a result of catering to both the business interests that exploit low-wage immigrant labor, and the business interests in South America that want American money sent to them by illegals.

Right, or wrong?

Is it really so complicated for all to see this?

Financial repatriations to Mexico is the #2 industry in Mexico. Not considering the drug trade. America is almost exclusively a service industry, now. We thrive on abundant, cheap labor. On millions of ants doing what the big bear can't do.

We're becoming the Shanghai of the Northern Hemisphere.

People you are going to have to wake our leaders up the only way they will be woken up. Vote against anyone who supports amnesty for illegals.

Or else you might as well just open the borders.

But before you do that, I'd take a good look at South Africa first. Once it becomes acceptable for the majority to take what it wants from the minority, the minority will have nothing. Not even a house, that they can call their own. The concept of personal property and personal rights will be lost entirely in this country.

If someone...probably a Latino...wants something, they will just take it, and dare you to do anything about it.

No one has even mentioned the TB and other diseases these illegal invaders bring into the country. And to that other person who claims they no longer feel safe, leave. I'm sure you will be much safer in Mexico.

Mike_DC writes:

"I have yet to see a satisfactory explanation of why we should be so eager to declare the (mostly) Latino immigrants illegal and punish them when, in the past, we have willingly opened the floodgates to white Europeans. To say, as some have said, this is not a racial issue or one of prejudice, is a joke."

Sure, it's racial. Just like the National Council of La Raza is racial -- their name is "The National Council of the Race". Just like the "Brown Power" signs we see at the recent marches are racial, as are the "Stolen Continent" and "Whites go Back to Europe" signs are racial. Just like the Congressional Hispanic Caucus is racial.

As Richard Cohen wrote in the Post yesterday, "the raceless world is a myth."

...oh, and the #1 industry in Mexico is oil production.

Funny, I thought having a lot of energy reserves was supposed to be good for a countrys' economy?

I guess they don't use a lot of manual labor to pump oil and ship it to the US.

Fisher wrote in his column:
"We insist on shopping at prices that can only be sustained by using illegal labor. We hire workers with a wink and an averted eye about how they got here and whether they're legal."

Wrong and wrong.
1) People will pay the lowest price. Some companies however try to get that lowest price by hiring illegals at lower wages. That is not he fault of the consumer.
2) Employers who hire illegal workers do not do so with a wink/nod. If the company obeys the law and submits the SS# the employee provides, the SS Administration will inform the employer that the SS# does not match other information the employee provided with that SS#, or the SS# is invalid. So no matter how you look at it, the employer KNOWS they have an illegal as an employee. No wink/nod, deliberate and itself a violation of law.

Herndon's reaction is just the tip of the iceberg. The protests for alien criminals did them in as it will do in any politicians who work to give them amnesty. It woke America up and we are finding people in our collective house we did not invite, refuse to leave, and want half the house. Nothing will make an American madder.

I agree with Scott's comment, illegal immigration should not be posed as a "we are virtuous because we are legal and they are not because they are illegal".

Rather, it is a question of this:

If the United States continues to refuse to enforce its immigration laws, it will cease to be a nation.

And if that happens, it will lead to unspeakable human rights horrors that make the "humanitarian" concerns of today's open borders advocates look like utter trivialities.

Orgon,

Virginia repealed red-light cameras, and DC repealed the speeding cameras. Imagine the outrage if cameras were used to catch you each time you broke the law, $50 each day. How about if they change the law where it was no longer a minor crime but one punishable by time in jail? Speeding kills and is barely enforced. Period. You have no argument. Illegal immigration does not kill anyone. And for the poor american citizens who can no longer pick fruits and lettuce, or cut beef, they can either get their GED or go to college. Use their head a bit instead of mailing bricks to senators.

cc writes:

"But before you do that, I'd take a good look at South Africa first. Once it becomes acceptable for the majority to take what it wants from the minority, the minority will have nothing. Not even a house, that they can call their own. The concept of personal property and personal rights will be lost entirely in this country."

It's true. Ethnic majorities everywhere tend to oppress ethnic minorities. Actually, any ethnic group that can get on top will do so -- check out Bolivia, where the Indians have finally organized themselves to kick the Europeans out of power. And what's Morales's first course of action? Take more power from the Europeans, in the form of nationalizing the gas fields.

Folks, the US has extremely enlightened policies towards its minorities compared to the rest of the world. The question is: if the US were to become majority Hispanic, would the same enlightened policies be extended to the white minority? Check out Bolivia and let me know what you think.

To Orgon,

Which war did America win the land from the Indians? Was it the forced removal of Cherokee Indians from their land in Georgia called the Trail of Tears or was it the Louisiana Purchase, which doubled the size of the US, but left a lot of Indians out of luck in regards to their native home. No, you must mean the war where America first enslaved the Indians for cheap labor. No, maybe you are talking about the war, where thousands of Indian women and children were raped and killed by our patriotic Pilgrims. Or the war where again our patriotic colonial Americans knowlingly gave small-pox diseased blankets to Indians to exterminate them.
So, please give me an example of the wars where America fairly won land from the Indians.

Mark,

Speeding kills, but where do you get that it is "barely enforced"? People get speeding tickets all the time.

Again, if you have a real pro-illegal immigration argument, then let's have it. Quit wasting my time with philosophical meanderings about speeding tickets.

I disagree about Minutemen being 'racists'.

The group of illegal immigrants they are guarding against (along the souhern border of the US) happen to be majority, if not entirely, Latino.

Learss,

All of the wars and battles you mentioned, and more. The intentional small-pox blanket thing is a myth, by the way.

Look, we had better weapons than the Indians and we took their land. This onlt seems to bother people when whites do it. How do you think the Aztecs, Maya, and Incas formed their empires? They beat the living snot out of surrounding tribes and either absorbed by force or eliminated them.

Pick 10 countries at random, and in 9 of them, the people living on that land now are not descendants of the original settlers there, but rather descendants of people who exterminated the original settlers.

Read this article, "Massacres Paid Your Mortgage, Dude": http://www.exile.ru/2005-July-01/war_nerd.html

Again, people only seem to have a problem with land taken by force when the color of the skin of the takers is white. Double standard, baby!

Last time I checked, Los Angeles, San Diego, Las Vegas, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, San Antonio, San Francisco, Montana, Colorado, Florida, etc. all have Spanish names. I guess Spanish was fashonable at some time or the west was originally colonized by the Spanish. Did Texas originally suffer from illegal American immigration? Did the US take the west from Mexico and paid them the equilavent of today's 650 Million dollars. Reminds me of the Dutch buying Manhatan with some Pots and Pans. So, the US robbed Mexico in the first place under a foreign policy called "Manifest Destiny." Who said right-wing religious nuts didn't exist back in the 1800s.

"Somehow it doesn't seem fair to grant privileges of citizenship to people who took it upon themselves to jump past those who are lawfully waiting in line to get into this country."

That pretty much sums up the only relevant issue. Nobody in this debate ever seems to consider the rights of the millions of people who are patiently waiting in line for years and years. They want to study, re-join their family, or otherwise pursue their dreams. Yet they can't get into the country legally, because the quota of visas is so low. And the visa quotas are low because the nation is swamped with illegal immigrants.

Illegal immigrants effectively steal the visa slots of law abiding applicants. We should secure the borders, and adopt a zero tolerance policy toward illegal immigrants already here. They should be deported and given a visa application to get back in line.

Disgusted,

" i speak perfect english and write very well..."

No,you don't write very well. You do not represent a college educated person at all.

"frankly, you people are gettin on my last nerves and i'm done wasting my time."

There certainly is fine quality education represented in those words!

And what type of reference does "brown" mean? Are you so narrow-minded that you think only Hispanic people are brown?

"We know that they are the scientists and engineers and inventors and entrepreneurs who keep America at the top of the heap."

I have yet to see any illegal immigrants who fit into those descriptions. Foreign intelligentsia come here for an American education, and often return home afterwards.

Expanding on my earlier point, note that the Incas would have been pleased as punch to sail to Spain and take over all of Iberia; the only thing stopping them was that they lacked the technology to do it.

Orgon,

Everything I mentioned previously were not wars or battles, there were forced removals and exterminations. Maybe you should re-read a history book before you call the Trail of Tears,sanctioned by President Andrew Jackson, a "war" or "battle". So you say the rape and murder of thousands of Indian women and children was a war. Please explain that to me.
Just because massacres has occured numerous times in history doesn't make it right. Additionally, its not a race issue. Since, Europeans colonized many countries, they are criticized first in regards to their past actions. Also, many of the effects of past colonization are still being felt in numerous countries.
In addition, I would not agree to the actions of Mayans, Aztecs, or Incas.

If we don't control illegal immigration now, we will have far worse problems with MS-13 gangs and crime in general. Get them out of here!

Mark,

I wish I had time to read all the previous comments first, but I'll offer mine anyway.

The Post used to have an advertising slogan that, "If you don't get it, you don't get it." Unfortunately, I feel that the Post simply does not get it when it comes to illegal immigration. This issue should be a simple matter of verifying employment eligibility documents (which needs to be computerized these days). Period.

Maybe the limits on immigration from Mexico and other countries south of the border were put in place for a good reason. I've read recently in the Post that an estimated one-third of our young people do not graduate from high school. Adding millions of unskilled immigrants from Mexico and other Latin American countries (or anywhere else in the world) creates an oversupply of unskilled labor and other problems that come with it. If some people are too cheap to pay a fair wage for services, that's their problem - let them do without.

Dear Disgusted:

Except for the phrase pointed out by Lyn and one or two other minor glitches, your writing is OK.

But do learn to capitalize when you are writing in any setting other than IM or in email to people you know very well. Using lowercase letters to begin sentences in those formats has become conventional, but it's not conventional in other formats.

That approach is especially likely to cause problems for you when you are writing to older people. That's very likely what has set off some of the people who have criticized your writing here.

The backlash against the protests by ILLEGAL immigrants (wanted to make sure the Post understood the ILLEGAL part) is beginning. Americans are fed up with their elected officials and fed up with the liberal Media who promotes the causes of the illeg