So that what is worng with Marc he spent many years in a single sex high school. Catholic High School, Marc. has the Pope sent you the letter excommunicating your sorry liberal butt? You must have attended one of those very liberal Catholic high schools. Marc did you have joint prom with Blessed Mary High School the all girls high school where the chicks were bigger and uglier than than the boys at your school who played football on the offensive line? Do you still make your poor wife dress up in the Catholic School girl outfit? Does your pulse quicken when you drive by the local Catholic high school to check the girls.

Vaherder, why don't you find a kiddy blog and play there.

Maybe that's what Mongomery County needs to ban next.Proms.

I appreciated the thought-provoking article by Marc Fisher, and was apalled and offended by the derogatory attacks personally directed at him by Vaherder.

Never saw this blog before, but "prom" caught my eye and here I am. I truly think that the prom is about spending as much of your parents' money as humanly possible to (for the girls) look and feel like a princess for a night. For the boys, it's about the hope of getting lucky or drunk. I chaperoned two proms when I was a student teacher/teacher, and this is the conclusion I sadly drew . . .

Adult Blogger: I'm not sure Vaherder should be allowed near kids, even on a blog. It's clear that he cruises the local high schools.

Though I am still trying to figure out what "worng" means in Vaherder's idiotic diatribe, it is clear that he spends too much time bf'ing his sheep to have any clear thoughts.

Hook up culture? But I thought that only happened at the AA meetings that Pat Collins reports on? Are you saying that that sort of thing happens in the culture in general?

Pat didn't say anything about that sort of thing happening in the culture at large, only in evil aa cults.

So the Times must be lying.

I was in high school about 8 years ago and I knew plenty of kids who dated. Kids did travel in packs as well, but within the group of kids there were often one or two boyfriend-girlfriend couples. People who dated seemed to have a steady girlfriend or boyfriend rather than dating different people. It seems like that's still the way it is, according to cousins I have who are in high school now. I never got the impression in high school that dating was considered "uncool", and I don't think it's like that today either.

Most people who go to prom still have a date and it is most desirable to have one. The difference is that you don't have to stay home if you don't have one. Plus people have more realistic expectations. Your date is just that, a date for the evening. Often it is a friend.

I think what has changed is the boy/girl dynamic. There is a greater comfort level between the sexes so it isn't a nerve wracking experience to go with a guy you like as a friend because you've spent a lot of time together just hanging out in the past. What my best guy friend and I do, is considered "dating" by our parents, but we just see it as hanging out or going to see a movie with a friend.

Well, when my (co-ed) crowd went (my prom was six years ago), we kind of went as a pack, but it was sort of like we paired off as far as "this person gets first dibs at you, if you don't want to dance they can ask someone else and vice versa" and there were four guys that went in my group who I had promised a dance to since we'd been friends a really really long time (and their dates knew this & were cool with it, I had even gotten ready at their houses!). I don't think the two setups are really so opposite, since generally people danced within their groups/cliques (you'd never ever see the jock dancing with the nerd, but you'd see a jock boy dance with a series of jock girls, for instance).

I never dated in high school. My mother used to beat my older sister when she came home from dates, including prom night. Not wanting to get beaten, I didn't date but nobody asked me anyway. Had clear skin and straight teeth, too. Go figure. It wasn't until I left home that I started to date but since I had my own apartment then those men suddenly decided to stay in and have a wrestling match. Such monsters, so I put the kibosh on that. What do people do on dates anyway? Haven't a clue. Never experienced that agonizing primitive adolescent ritual.

I think going to the prom with your 16 friends is an improvement over the old date-pairs. It's a time to get dressed up and have fun.

I remember always being picked last for the kick-ball team. I wouldn't wish the sitting at home with no date thing on anybody.

MoCo should ban date-pairs at Proms, not Proms.

My prom (which was 7 years ago) was a little bit of both. My core group of high school friends stuck together as far as limo rides, dinner seating, and all of that went, but we all had dates too. I brought someone from another school and most of my girl friends brought dates from different classes (it's a Junior Prom in the town I grew up in, not a Senior Prom), so the size of the group was pretty much dictated by the girls (as most of the guys didn't know each other anyway). I have a cousin who went just last year and brought her best friend (also a girl) as her "date" - the two had a blast and didn't have to worry about anything more than having the right dress!

That was me barely 4 years ago. My parents forbade me from dating until I was 16. So did a lot of peoples' parents. So kids go out in large groups from the early teen years on to get around this. You can usually identify the pairs in a large group of teens.

The group dynamic benefits singles by not requiring they have a date who means something to them, whether it is at prom or just the movies. I went to my prom with my ex-boyfriend (the $80 per pair tickets had already been bought when we broke up). Had we not been in a group that night, it could have been very, very awkward.

where did all these weirdo commenters come from?

anyways, Marc, you say that the prom season articles could have been written every year since 1940. I think the "hook up" trend articles could have been written every year since 1990. I once read either you or Howie Kurtz say "give a reporter to data points and he can write a trend story." Kids still date. Other kids just hook up. I don't think one is destroying the other. Prom still matters.

Vaherder, perhaps you've ingested a tad too much lead paint?

Prom was a bore in 1972, stuck with one guy you didn't really like. Prom now, with 16 friends, and girls dancing with each other all night in bare feet? Mucho fun.

Wow, this subject brought out some odd comments.

When I went to high-school dances, we would go as a group of couples, and usually only one of these couples were people who were "dating" in the traditional sense. It was just more fun to do dinner and pictures in a big group than to do it alone. I'm not quite sure what the big deal is; it's a dance, something thrown by the school for the kids to enjoy. It's made into this huge rite of passage/excuse to spend $300 by outside forces. If people would stop making such a big deal about it, a lot of the problems associated with it would go away.

Ah good to have you back VA herder - as judgemental, ignorant, and unable to spell as ever. Agree with him or not, at least Marc went to a school that taught him how to write and form sentences. The best thing about your posts is that it's fun to imagine them being spoken aloud by the Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer from SNL.

VA Herder - you're just jealous b/c the only female action you've ever gotten is from your collies.

Marc, Kids still have proms for the same reason that we still have formal weddings, costing thousands of dollars and where the bride and groom expect and receive many gifts. It's just as silly to give a toaster to a couple that's already cohabitating as it is to rent a tux for an event where you just hang out with your buds.

However, that did not stop my wife and I from having a wedding with all the whistles and bells, so I guess I can't criticize. :)

Someone nailed it... nobody should stay home on prom night. These kids have taken our advice over the years: don't leave anyone out. So, the kids who want a date have one, and the kids who don't get to go out & dress up without feeling weird. I wish it was like that when I was in HS!

I didn't want to miss my dance in the late 70's so I went with a neighbor just to be with my crowd. Had to sit and watch the love of my life with someone else, and even sit at the same dinner table with him. It would have been 10x more bearable to be there surrounded by a bunch of girlfriends. I say the prom has evolved in a much more positive direction!

i read that some high school & i forget where, has decided to ban non-dating people from attending the prom. i didn't attend my prom. i might have gone if it had been ok for dateless girls to go but, on the other hand, didn't much care. i still don't feel like i missed out on anything.

Stugats, you keep insulting collies like that and I`ll send you to the vet on a stretcher!

Things haven't changed that much, Marc. I went to the prom with a group of mostly single friends, but believe me, I had date envy. Besides, I don't think taking someone to a "once in a lifetime event" (that's how the limo and dress companies sell it, anyway) is viewed in the same way as asking if they want to go to a movie without the rest of the group.

Sorry Lassie - didn't mean to ruffle your fur. But why do some of your kin choose to work and obey someone (va herder) that is less intelligent than they are?

I skipped my prom (not because I didn't have a date, I had a long term girlfriend from another school and we just weren't interested) but disagree with the earlier assertion that guys are just going to get drunk or lucky. Most decent looking guys I knew in HS were having sex long before Prom, so that was no motivation. It was just a right of passage that many felt necessary to attend.

Transgender and other sexually confused adolescents, whose batteries are upside down, need proms too! Go Hillary 2008!

Transgender and other sexually confused adolescents, whose batteries are upside down, need proms too! Go Hillary 2008!

Transgender and other sexually confused adolescents, whose batteries are upside down, need proms too! Go Hillary 2008!

I just want to see one prom like what we see in the movies. You know, where the nerd or nerdette gets voted Prom King/Queen and then fights the lead Cheerleader/QuarterBack and kicks their butt.

Or maybe where the "Cool Kids" Drop Pigs Blood on the "outcast" girl and she goes all Carrie on their asses! Now that is a PROM!

Floyd - are you really Tweek from South Park?

Just waiting for some aspiring journalist to ask the Hildabeast if she's ever had intimacies with another person of the same sex; understanding Bill did not have sex with Monica. Rosie O Dimwit, Michael Moron, and St. Bill Maher want to know, dammit!

Maybe the Prom is a ritual, like a Fourth of July parade? Everybody likes a party.

Who's Hildabeast? Are you talking about Condi?

Duh! - Hildabeast = Hillary Clinton

The Prom Date is not dead. My daughter just attended a prom this year and went with a date. However, they went as a group with several other couples, most of whom were arranged dates of convenience, with no real relationship behind them.

True enough, most of the time these days, the kids go out in groups. Generally speaking, I think that puts less pressure on them to get intimate or go through the histrionics of teenage romance. So, I think the current social arrangement of going out in groups is a good thing.

The Prom still serves as a good social experience for them to learn the ins and outs of formal wear, formal dining, and the other amenities of etiquette. They spend far too much time in T-shirts and flip-flops eating at too many theme restaurants.

So, as I said, the Prom Date is not dead, and that's a good thing. I also think that the practice of going out in groups is a good thing, too. Let's keep them both.

Hildabeast + JaReno = Chelsea

One aspect of the promi ritual that endures: When the date or posse come by, all dressed to the nines, to pick up their friend, the parents step up and ask.....

`Got any naked pictures of our son/daughter?`

`If not, wanna buy some?`

The parents then take out a portfolio of their son/daughter`s naked baby on a blanket pictures to show the crowd. Great fun!!! The crowd gets a good laugh, and the parents get to turn the tables on their kid and embarrass them.

Hannie hit it - Kids have taken our advice and don't want to leave anybody out.

I like that.

I graduated from a boys' Catholic High School before most of you bloggers were born. We had dates from our communities or girls' schools. We drove our dates to the prom in our fathers' ugly sedans or station wagons. Never heard of a limo. It was hard enough affording the tux, corsage, outrageous dinner tab, etc. No one I know was spending parents' money for this gig. Also, no one I knew got drunk or laid on prom night. We drove to OC at dawn and slept on the beach. That is as wild as it got back in the day. As someone else said, everyone was having sex already (don't believe that urban myth about Catholic girls being easy)so Prom night was no big deal from that standpoint.

I graduated from a boys' Catholic High School before most of you bloggers were born. We had dates from our communities or girls' schools. We drove our dates to the prom in our fathers' ugly sedans or station wagons. Never heard of a limo. It was hard enough affording the tux, corsage, outrageous dinner tab, etc. No one I know was spending parents' money for this gig. Also, no one I knew got drunk or laid on prom night. We drove to OC at dawn and slept on the beach. That is as wild as it got back in the day. As someone else said, everyone was having sex already (don't believe that urban myth about Catholic girls being easy)so Prom night was no big deal from that standpoint.

As a third year college student I can say that prom is still just as stressful, even if you go in a large group. Kids want to go in groups simply because the more people the more fun.

As for dating, it is different. Of course -- and that has been affected by the new comfort level between the genders. What high school and college kids have become are serial daters. Very few relationships last past the three months point or even the three weeks. But that doesn't mean dating is gone. Some of it is how over-schedule our lives are. Do we have time for dinner and a movie with that cutie? If it's a movie about the situation in Darfur and we make dinner as a chemistry experiment, then we have time.

As a third year college student I can say that prom is still just as stressful, even if you go in a large group. Kids want to go in groups simply because the more people the more fun.

As for dating, it is different. Of course -- and that has been affected by the new comfort level between the genders. What high school and college kids have become are serial daters. Very few relationships last past the three months point or even the three weeks. But that doesn't mean dating is gone. Some of it is how over-scheduled our lives are. We can't date and go to soccer practice, clarinet practice, newspaper club, learn to drive, etc. I know that was my situation. Do we have time for dinner and a movie with that cutie? If it's a movie about the situation in Darfur and we make dinner as a chemistry experiment, then we have time.

I went to prom 8 years ago and both times that I went I did not have a "date." The first year I decided to go at the last minute with a group of girlfriends and the second year I decided to "go" with one of my friends who was a foreign exchange student and also a girl--neither of us thought about getting dates, so we went together, met up with one set of friends for dinner, another set for the dance and yet another set for the school-sponsored afterparty. While plenty of people I knew went as "couples" it was completely normal for you to go stag, go with friends, whatnot. You all ended up hanging out together anyway.

For the majority, it about getting drunk or getting laid--we just wanted to have time to socialize as a big group at a special occasion outside of school and celebrate your time together. Whether you go with a "date" or not, I thought the idea of prom is just that.

Correction: "it was not about getting laid..."

I seemed to miss a few words there.

I think it is great that kids go in packs to the prom and to homecoming. It beats missing your senior prom just because you didn't have a date! My daughter goes with the pack, and they have a great time, and dance with whoever they want to. Even if some of the kids have dates, they still usually go as a group. I think it is a great turn of events, and says good things about our kids today.

I didn't notice one thing different about prom discussions this year that didn't happen in 1984 when we had a "new wave" prom, many women went in groups and two guys went together and I mean slow-danced together. That was 23 years ago! I feel so freaking old.

When my son's prom was held last year, it was widely understood that the after prom party to be held at "Johnny's" house was to include drinking - incredibly with the tacit approval of the parents, whose attitude seemed to be, "well better to have it happen at our house, where we can keep an eye on it". Aside from the fact that abetting in the delinquency of a minor is a crime, it seemed to us a shocking and sad state of affairs. At considerable trouble we held an alternate party at our house, much to the gratitude of many - since they understood that drinking would not be allowed. We gathered up a bunch of games, good food and received what I took to be genuine thanks from the prom-goers, who I think we relieved not to have to be "cool" by getting wasted and puking all night.

There's a time and place to get wasted and puke all night, and that place is college.

It cracks me up that anyone would waste this much hot air/thought/etc. on a fluff piece about prom! :0)

Lighten up everyone! Vaherder was joking and I found it funny. Guess that makes me immature, but at least I don't take myself too seriously and know how to laugh.

I feel bad for anyone who was forbidden to date! I enjoyed it thoroughly!!! I hope my kids will too when they start to date . . .

There is definitely a difference! Back then, I assume, it was a more serious matter. Perhaps after highschool a larger percentage got married back then. These days marriage is more often waaay after higschool. So there isnt the need or urgency for formal dating, or serious dates to proms. When I was in highschool thre was always the few couples who dated serious but the majority of kids did not date like that. Hookin up is the norm for college as the guys usually prefer it at that age, and arent ready for relationships. More traditional dating like bakc in the 50s doesnt come into play till you are graduated and in the real world.

oh yes...and the Prom was definitely an excuse to try and get drunk and stay out past curfew for many. having a date just made you look more popular. sadly enough..

The large groups and dating couples are not mutually exclusive. At least, when I went to prom six years ago the large groups more or less were groups of friends who got together to share a limo since limos were so expensive and hard to hire on Friday or Saturday nights at that time of year. I was actually booted from a group of 32 because there were not enough seats in the bus that they rented. That group included both "dating" pairs and those going stag.
Also the whole hook-up culture issue is not black and white like most people seem to think. Just because it may be prevelant now it does not mean 100% of kids fall into that catagory. If you want to analuze the phenomenon then you have to take all of the data into consideration

Someone solved the "drinking parties" at the houses of parents who "wanted it at home" on my block. A party started, I went out to see what was going on and the parents explained that it was "ok" and they were watching the kids, when the cops showed up. the parents had real explaining to do to the police. If any parents I know have a drinking party that MY kids are getting invited to, I will, under no uncertain terms, alert the police to the address of this party and the intention to serve underage drinkers. It ceases to be a parenting issue and has become illegal at that point. I mean, I have friends who told me stories about heated arguments about these parties at PTA meetings where NO ONE considered calling the police. why not? It's not like it's a moral issue. It's strictly a legal one.

Ah the prom. Mine was 11 years ago this month. Back then I was a dorky and skinny nerd and I had never had a date. The girl who went to the prom with me was one of the hottest girls in the school - she went with me as a mercy date. There were three couples all together - myself, my best friend (he still is), and a good friend of ours who was an exchange student, and our respective dates.

I didn*t mind the mercy-date-hotness though because it made all the meathead jocks super jealous. To this day I will never forget that. It was also the first time I stayed out till the sun came up - a precursor to my current life as a club DJ in the nation's capital.

Marc, is there something you can do about deleting the silly comments that have nothing to do with what you wrote? The Post doesn't print every LTTE, they shouldn't post every ridiculous off-topic comment either. It really brings down the whole point of this blog, which is to facilitate some kind of intelligent exchange of views. Much more of this and I'll just skip the blog altogether--I'd rather not, but wading through 5-6 bitter, random attacks on you or the political bogeyman or -woman of the week is a waste of time.

"Whomever"--you know, there is a middle ground between teetotalling and "getting wasted and puking." Of course underage drinking is illegal--but it's also something of a rite of passage and yes, your kids will probably do it. I cringe as much as anybody when parents try too hard to be their kids' buddy and buy them kegs or whatever, but condoning a very limited amount of drinking in your home is acceptable, IMO. My parents taught me how to drink when I was still underage, and I never ever got "wasted and puking" while I was in HS. (College, OTOH, was a different story...)

What a retarded article. Seriously. I love it when adults view teenagers as these alien freaks who need to be tracked by anthropologists with PhDs. Teenage cohorts don't change much from year to year. Really. If you can remember yourself at that age, that's how kids mostly are.

Kids date as much as they ever did--which is to say, not much. It's hard when you ahve no car, little, money, and a curfew. Kids have always hung out in packs. Kids still have girlfriends and boyfriends.

Prom is therefore as relevant as it ever was--not very.

NYC, exactly what part of your post contained an "intelligent exchange"? If we're wasting your time, DON'T READ THE CHAT.

My high school senior prom was in the dark ages, 1956, in Hershey, PA. The "senior" prom was exactly that, a prom for our high school seniors. There were no outsiders; if your "steady" was a junior or attended another school, tough; you found another date from the senior class or went "stag" (or whatever the female equivalent is/was.) The prom, which included dinner at the Hotel Hershey and a dance band, cost us nothing. (For many of the farm-raised, small town kids, the dinner may have been the first dress-up, eat-out experience of their lives.) The senior class had fund-raisers--car washes, bake sales--throughout the year to cover the cost of the prom. Individual costs were limited to renting a tux, buying a dress, flowers, filling the gas tank (at 30 cents a gallon) or whatever. After the dinner-dance, we went to classmates' homes for informal parties where the risky behavior might have been for the guys to smoke a cigar or maybe sneak a beer or two. I know that many of you will say "how boring," but, as Uncle Walter would say,"That's the way it was."

Quoting: "Generally speaking, I think that puts less pressure on them to get intimate or go through the histrionics of teenage romance. So, I think the current social arrangement of going out in groups is a good thing." End quote.

This is totally wrong based on what I have seen. A pairing relationship breeds a certain sense of responsibility, accountability, and decency. Teens going out in groups exhibit some of the most horrible behavior I have ever witnessed, and part of the problem is that each one knows the group will back them up. Even worse, the limit just gets pushed and pushed further into territory no decent human being should enter.

A certain level of intimacy, in the true sense of that word - can be a good thing. Drunken vulgar obnoxiousness without any consequence - parental, financial, legal, or even social - is not.

"NYC, exactly what part of your post contained an "intelligent exchange"?"

Um, the part where I responded to the topic? You know, the topic of underage drinking? You, uh, have been reading what the chat was about, right?

"If we're wasting your time, DON'T READ THE CHAT."

Chill, my little man...unless you have some kind of problem with intelligent, on topic conversation, I don't understand why you're acting so pissy. If you feel personally attacked, hey, DON'T READ THE CHAT.

Now, back to the topic...