I've had to fight the impulse to send Mike Q a case of whiskey. IMO, he deserved to die drunk.
AA's fourth tradition grants groups autonomy except in matters that affect other groups or AA as a whole. Midtown has affected other groups and the fellowship; they have compromised AA's reputation as a safe haven for all who seek help.
Other than dropping Midtown's meetings from the roster, there's not much Intergroup or General Services can do but, hopefully, let them wither & die.
In the meantime, be warned. Midtown may be associated with AA, but what they practice is not how many sober alcoholics' define sobriety.
Of course, I only speak for myself...

This somewhat amusing saga of "Mike Q." seems to have gotten a bit more airplay than it is worth. There are hundreds of AA groups in the Washington D.C., area that follow AA's 12 traditions and are strong in carrying AA's message to the still suffering alcoholic.

The Midtown "group" - group of what I am not quite sure of - seem to have very little to do with Alcoholics Anonymous. There are other "recovery fads" that I have seen come and go in my 27-plus years as an active member of AA; Rational Recovery immediately comes to mind.

I hope that those who broke the law in Midtown are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I also hope the general public better understands that Midtown is not representative of AA - and in my humble opinion, is not even a part of AA.

Good riddance to con artists and sexual predators like Michael Quinones.

Hey Marc,

I have a question for you. For all your interest in the "controversy" surrounding this story, have you ever attended any of the meetings in questions, or any meeting of AA for that matter?

Just wondering

AA member, what's your point?

Tom,

If thirty people called Marc and told him that the sky was blue, and he procceeded to write about that as fact, how would he ever really know what color the sky is if he never actually goes outside himself. Sounds more like sensationalized reporting than infromed fact based reporting is what I was getting at. How can such an "esteemed" member of the press convince anyone, that he knows what the real story is if he has never seen it with his own eyes?

He even admitted in his Power Talk/Hur blog that he never even attended the meetings in question. How informed is that?

AA Member is of course correct--as some Midtown members know, I was invited to attend their sessions incognito, an invitation that Post ethics rules require me to decline. We do not believe in reporting via subterfuge. Yes, there are times when it's enticing to sneak into some meeting and pretend to be something other than a reporter, but that's simply not honest and we don't do it.
So I relied on good old reporting: I spoke to dozens of people who devoted years of their lives to Midtown. Some left the group in disgust, some were drawn out by exit counselors and family members, and some remain in the group and continue to defend its approach and actions. In addition, I spoke to police investigators, lawyers, counselors, psychiatrists and others in AA and out who have watched Midtown for many years and have close experiences with it. That's the way most news stories are reported. Ideally, every story will include firsthand observation as part of the reporting, but that's not always possible, nor is it, in a story like this, necessarily of much use. As members of Midtown are quick to note, many of the more coercive aspects of the group are evident not from the meetings themselves, but from the close social connections and job and living arrangements that members are lured into. Going to a meeting wouldn't give a reporter much insight into that.

How informed is what?

Why would an alleged scam artist and sexual predator like this Mike Q. dude (and his cronies) go after a middle-aged, balding man like Mr. Fisher? It looks to me as if Fisher's reporting has multiple sources that have given ample testimony to the type of conduct that has occurred over the years at the "Midtown Group." And much of this conduct -- that has nothing to with AA seems -- to be focused on Quinones and his cohorts allegedly coercing young, impressionable women very early in sobriety to part with finances and sexual favors. My only hope is that a grand jury will soon return indictments against this bunch of creeps.

Come on, Marc. In today's world of gotcha cable news and Internet bloggers, we all expect you to go undercover as a 17 year old woman who is fond of drink.

OK, now I can't get that image out of my mind.

Good reporting.

Well, I'm just glad that I'm sleeping at night, sober and happy. I wonder if the people who have provided the slander for this article are sleeping at night happy and sober. My thought is that it is dobtful. But they'll remain in my prayers anyway.

If you believe all that mess...
I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

When they came for the old timers,
I remained silent;
I was not an old timer.

When they kicked us out of the meetings,
I remained silent;
My spirit is not in the meeting space but the meeting itself.

When they came for the traditions and heart of AA,
I did not speak out;
I was just a young member who in my heart is following the traditions.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

I will continue to live as I know is right - my life is between me and God - not some random BS newspaper.

Copying the "when they came for me" prose decrying the silence of people during WWII is beneath contempt. Your situtation is not remotely similar and constructing a parallel that says otherwise is despicable.

Or are you about to be packed into a freight car and hauled to the gas chamber?

Thanks for the background, Marc! That was illuminating.

Actually that phrase has been used for many groups having nothing to do with WWII including the Catholics, Protestants, and the mentally ill. Also, due the slander and gossip many people are dying. The resentful and the newcomer alike. I think it's important to recognize that. When those who carry this awful bag of lies drinks and dies perhaps then you will believe it's important to tell the truth about the situation.

Marc,

I thank you for your respose above. I gotta tell you though, and maybe its just me, I have a problem with reporters and members in the media who have reported on this "controversy" pressuming to know anything about AA and its traditions.

I can go a block down the street and talk w/ sales guys at a honda dealer. I can then go to the chrylser deler, the lexus dealer, then over to the ford dealer. They'll all tell me how and why they are the best and how and why the "other group" is wrong and all about how they treat thier customers badly.

Doesn't really make me much of an authority on cars and how the how cars work does it? The reason I had asked whether or not you had attended Midtown or any other meeting was because I was interested in knowing wether or not you actually know what the 12 steps and traditions are in AA. I guess since it wasn't important for your story to do any back checking on AA as a program of recovery, I guess that should tell everyone what it needs to.

Your original article titled" AA member leads members away from Traditions' talked about the unusual adaptation to AA that Mike Q created. Midtown was an established AA meeting back in the 50's, long before Mike Q even got sober. Besides, there are no leaders in AA, onlt trusted servants.

To be fair, I think you should have asked Rev. Goff what it is really like to be in thier "huge" fellowship hall standing shoulder to shoulder in August with out any air conditioning.

When my son called to tell me he's not coming over tonight because he's going to a memorial service I asked if it was for Mike Q.

He said, "yes."

I told him I'd read about him on this web site. He said, "oh."

I said, "I know if you act with integrity, work the steps and follow the traditions that you will not be one of those people they talk about who take advantage of people."

The fact that my son called me, was at work, and even has a drivers' license is a tribute to the Midtown group. Of his pre-Midtown friends one is in jail and the other stepped in front of a train and is dead.

The only reason I can read this and not be outraged that it's sensational is that I know that the program works, and that people who haven't been there don't have a clue about it.

I never met Mike Q and I imagine that I might not have thought he was the greatest person, but I have to wish him eternal peace because he was a part of a group that has saved one life that is very dear to me.

Midtown AA is not going anywhere Midtown will continue to grow and save lives as it did mine because I will "pass it on".

Indeed Midtown will not go anywhere and it will continue to thrive. It's because the people there are happy and know how to have fun in sobriety. Others see this and look on in envy. Alcoholics are envious, paranoid and spiteful creatures. This evidenced in these blogs and in the the articles about the group. Most of the things in these articles could be construed one way or the other. I guess the one thing Marc Fisher forgot was to check the credibility of his sources. I don't want to say anymore, but the people he quoted in his articles literally had ulterior motives while they were supposedly undergoing this torture in Midtown. Oh, I guess they didn't mention THEIR part. That would change, rather discredit the story entirely. Wouldn't it.

The one thing I know about AA in the DC area is that it is BORING. And the people you're hanging out with this year will most likely be gone next year; either no longer going to AA, moving away somewhere or even leaving and getting drunk. Alcoholics rarely stay in one place very long, it's their most outstanding trait. Rarely do the ever see eye to eye on anything. Another one of their outstanding traits. Hehhemm...

But then there's Midtown, a place where you know people will always be doing something active and sober. True some of them have a stupid elistist attitudes, but criminals they are not. Breakers of traditions they are not. The accusers are the breakers of the traditions, not them. Read the damn traditions again, this time read the black parts on the page. :|

A stupid assumption on every haters part is that people came to Midtown without a choice. Most of the members there chose to be there because they know how bad their case is. Regular ho-hum DC AA just wasn't cutting it. What are you going to do for the other 23 hours of the day? In most of the AA groups in this area, the answer is nothing. Feeling crazy want to drink, too bad, you'll just have to wait for the dreary meeting 15 hours from now.

What goes on there is a miracle to some and a nightmare to others. But one thing that is certain, you won't find it anywhere else in this country or in any other. Midtown saves the lives of people who could not get sober anywhere else they tried. Thank God Midtown is there. Thank God.

" ... What goes on there is a miracle to some and a nightmare to others. But one thing that is certain, you won't find it anywhere else in this country or in any other. "

This reminds me so much of Jonestown.

Thanks for confirming many of our suspicions, "indeed" ..

Marc,
First of all thanks for the great reporting. I'm a long-time member of the program and a former resident of D.C. Along with a ex-Midtown buddy, I attended a number of Midtown meetings and events to see what with my own eyes what was going on. To their credit, Midtown does two things extremely well; they help the young alcoholic develop a social network and learn that you can have fun in sobriety. This is something I am often dissappointed with in our other groups...it seems to me that often the older members can fail in demonstrating this to younger alcoholics...that you can be sober and still enjoy life.

On the other hand, I saw enough suspicious and sometimes downright creepy behavior in Midtown groups that sent me running for the hills. Meetings definitely had the flavor of a personality cult centering around 'The Q' and his lieutenants. I've found their slight perversion of the program to be disturbing. It was obvious from day 1 that these changes were meant to beneift 'the Q' and his guys. I have to be honest. I have seen this type of predatory behavior very occassionally in other groups.....of course, AA is a microcosm of the world. My issue is the scale and systematic nature of the abuse. In most groups, AA old-timers will often intervene personally to address the situation. Obviously, when the old-timers are the ones taking advantage, this is tough to correct.

I DO empathize with the parents who feel a debt to Midtown for saving their child. It's hard for me to argue against them. I think Midtown is better than no AA, but there are many great meetings in the DC area. Unfortunately, one needs to try out many sometimes to find the good ones.

In my opinion, the best way to help your child is to know something about alcoholism. The Big Book of AA isn't only for alcoholics by the way. If a parent wants to REALLY know what the program is all about (and not just take Midtown's word for it) you can learn alot about the principles through AA's website (www.aa.org) or by reading the Big Book of AA.

Blessings to everyone fighting this pernicious disease.

I know there are many people that have been saved by the work of members of Midtown. I also know of people who have been harmed by members of Midtown. Which I guess makes AA no different than other organizations. If Mike Q (or any of the other surviving members of Midtown) had (have) done anything illegal then prosecute them.

Since Mike Q had a service at Blessed Sacrement I am assuming that he was Catholic. So now if Mike Q has done anything wrong it will be from a far higher authority to determine his guilt.

Mike Q and Midtown are a part of AA but they are not AA. My own home group has its share of "interesting" people. Heck, AA is about only place I know of that having jail in your C.V. makes your story "better".

As long as the primary message in Midtown is: don't drink, practice the principles in all of our affairs, say your prayers, talk to your sponsor, attend meetings, and help another alcoholic who still suffers than Midtown is doing the work of AA.

I pray that Mike Q is in a better place.

Marc, thanks for your reporting on this story. As an "old timer" (a phrase I hate but it is true) I was impressed you were able to get such a good feel for what our program is about and the essential way in which Midtown has perverted it.

It's interesting why AA has not reigned in this outlaw group; you allude to the concept of anonymity and the fact that AA is not really an organization but an amorphous movement, a fellowship based on the principles of moral behavior and individual honest and integrity, and one without actual rules or membership lists. Those are true reasons, IMO.

Our concept of anonymity in the public media is one grounded in the concept that we should be governed by "principles, not personalities" and the idea that if everyone is anonymous in the media, the AA name will never be drawn into public controversy. Indeed, some Midtown members have vehemently argued in the blog posting to your first article that anonymity should shield lawbreakers. Let me assure you and every non-AA member who might be reading that real AA members obey the law. We are not a secret society and do not shield lawbreakers. In fact, it is strongly suggested that every member take responsibility for and make amends for his or her actions, past or present, that harmed someone.

The concept that anonymity should shield a "charismatic" "leader" who "runs" an AA group for years is, to any real AA member, highly ironic and offensive in a way that might even be difficult for a non-member to fully appreciate. AA has no leaders, only "trusted servants" who serve as volunteers for short periods of time; they serve the other members and they "do not govern". (For example, members volunteer to make coffee, line up logistics and the like.) Given that we do not accept outside contributions and take in a minimal amount to cover basic expenses like renting a room at a local church or buying nominal refreshments, and give the rest away, there are really no decisions involving money. The emphasis is on meetings and discussing our issues. Each person may say basically what he or she wishes without any crosstalk or criticism. No one tells anyone what to do.

This last emphasis, focusing on oneself and not interfering in others' lives, is possibly the biggest barrier to AA in trying to do something about Midtown. As most people know from common experience, those who overly criticize and try to direct the lives of others frequently do this to avoid looking at and working on themselves. Alcoholics (and most everyone in AA regards alcoholism as a lifetime condition, even after many years without a drink) seem especially susceptible to try and direct the lives of others, and so are especially on guard for any hint of this in their own behavior. This makes many, many members reluctant to intervene in the Midtown situation, given that they fear it might bring out this kind of behavior in themselves and lead them back to alcohol. It's also our tradition that each AA group is independent, except when its behavior harms other groups or AA as a whole. (The qualifying clause is often overlooked, however.)

So our fellowship is especially vulnerable to those who wish to pervert it.

Many Midtowners argue that they have a fun group of fellowship, that they don't drink, that sexual relationships heal, and similar arguments. Well, to some extent that is true. However, what's the price? Many members, especially young females, have been harmed by sexual abuse and predation, and they are further harmed when they are called liars and thieves, and subject to unrelenting verbal abuse and threats to reveal the secrets they have revealed as part of their "treatment". Many other members, by virtue of paying for their sponsor's vacations and doing domestic and yard work for free for years, are being exploited. Many members who have been pressured to quit psychotherapy and drop their medications (and many mental illnesses are organic illnesses, not simply emotional problems) are harmed tremendously. (One person I knew went off all his psychotropic medication at once and committed suicide two days later.)

And yet we're told that Midtown is "fun". Well, it's certainly fun if you are a male getting as much sex with numerous young women as you want, if someone else is paying for your vacation, and if someone else is doing your house cleaning and yard work for free. However, it's not recovery. It's not sobriety. It is not Alcoholics Anonymous. It is parasitic and it is exploitative. And the predators and parasites of Midtown, whose "program" is diametrically opposed to essentially everything AA stands for, have no right to call themselves an AA group.

Mom of AA wrote:

"The only reason I can read this and not be outraged that it's sensational is that I know that the program works, and that people who haven't been there don't have a clue about it."

What about the people who have been, or whose children have been there, and have been harmed or exploited?

Why on earth would a 60 yr. old man surround himself with underage girls?

That doesn't seem at all odd? And that some of those young women would make allegations of impropriety seems entirely outside the realm of possiblity?

Midtown has long been, and seemingly continues to be, operating outside the tenets of AA. If you wish to call yourself an AA group then don't act alarmed when people expect you to follow the principles of AA.

For example: Midtown's part in all this?

Amends to anyone? Individuals? Other AA groups? AA as a whole?

Explanations on why there is even a "group" called Midtown? Not a meeting...a GROUP. AA doesn't do that.

Explanations or denouncements of Mike Q as "a leader." AA doesn't do that, either.

All the rationalizations, denial, minimizing, and finger pointing are not necessary if Midtown is following the principles of the program. But don't take the name of something decent and change its message against its will and not expect that you won't be asked to be accountable for that.

Eventually, we all die.

And God sorts it all out.

AA butNotMidtown, I'm also not Midtown and have never been. I have over 20 yrs.

Can you really think that if the activities described in the articles, posts, and (for me) the personal accounts of people I know and trust are even remotely true, that Midtowners could be "practicing the principles in all their affairs" and "helping the alcoholic who still suffers"? Truly?

I have a friend who was in Midtown some years ago and defends it, rationalizes its behavior (no one who knows her can figure this out, actually). Anyway, after a spirited exchange with her during which she defended Midtown to the skies, she added at the end "But I hope Mike Q burns in hell".

I believe that heaven and hell are on earth, not in any afterlife. And on earth, Michael Quinones created a hell for many desperate people who were suffering and went to his group for help.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with mind games and rape to take your mind off drinking!

For those who have been influenced by Mike Q, the ones furiously defending Midtown or Mike Q, I feel truly sorry for you. Mike will meet his creator, his God, or his Devil. We dont know. But look at the facts and question for yourself. You do not need a reporter to question, a police officer to question, an ex Midtown member to question, or a priest, a therapist, a mother or a dry cleaner. The steps of AA and the traditions of AA are there to guide an alcoholic to become a useful productive member of society. For those that held Mike is such esteem, When and Where did he become a productive member of scociety OUTSIDE OF AA? or with his own FAMILY? Does any one ever question that??
There was a man preaching the miracles of AA, when he NEVER EVER made amends to any one in his own family?? isnt that the 9th step? Amends, to make whole, at least attempt. He did have 2 wonderful kids that he NEVER made time for. He had at least 2 ex wives, many girlfriends and 100's of sex slaves.
He did not hold a job for any length of time (3 years max) been bankrupt a few times SOBER. This man appologized to no one, a self rightous ass.

So for those that have followed in Mikes footsteps, God be with you, or may you find a real man to follow now.
Are you not questioning why his own children did NOT attend his funeral? This was not a man that had love in his heart. If there was no personal gain either financial or sexual he had absolutely nothing to do with it, and that included his family. This was not a sound man or a good man.

for those parents thinking that Midtown was a miracle, AA is a miracle, not midtown, not Mike Q. I fear those that aspire to be like Mike, to think there are possible clones of him is a dreadful thought if not a nightmare.

exexex, thank you! I didn't know that Michael Quinones was such a failure in life and that his children didn't attend his funeral. I knew, of course, that he lived with teenaged girls for years, that he lived with a 19 year old girl up to his death.

To the parents of children who thought Midtown was a miracle, I only agree with exexex that AA is the miracle here. And it truly is a miracle that the twisted and perverted version of AA practiced in Midtown worked at all. I hope that your children will now be able to free themselves of this group and find the real AA so that they may live a sober life.

I do not celebrate the death of anyone but I know that the DC recovery community is better off without Mike Q (real name Edward Quinones, Jr.). If he was such a great man, why did he go by his brother's name? Why did he reject his own family? I am acquainted with members of his immediate family. When I heard he had died, I called them to confirm and offer condolences. They were unaware of his death. His son had not been allowed to see his father before his death. I do not think they were even aware of the recent services, which would explain their absence. One of them thought he might be sent back to Puerto Rico where his mother lives. Was she at the memorial services?

The Q group (which became the Midtown groups) had a reputation for being sexual predators when I got clean 20 years ago. AA refused to address the improprieties and enabled Midtown to develop. I noted with interest the posting here from the person who said all of non-Midtown AA was so boring, that people don't stay there and the real recovery is in Midtown. This is classic cult thinking - us vs. them, we are the only ones with the real message, etc. If the rest of AA and other 12 step fellowships are so bad, then how do you explain how AA has survived prior to Midtown or Mike Q and how do you explain why the non-Midtown groups are full of people with over 20 years in recovery?

I challenge Midtown to show they indeed follow the traditions of AA. First, open up membership of your groups to any alcoholic with the desire to stop drinking, not just those who have sponsors that belong to the group. Let any alcoholic vote in your group conscience. Second, open up your group financial records to other members of AA. Third, attend some non-Midtown AA meetings on your own, not with a Midtown entourage. Meet and talk with members there. You don't have to mention Midtown, just talk recovery. Or are you afraid of what you might learn?

It's my understanding that AA and it's members generally don't debate; not in private nor in public. I'm sad that folks reading these articles and the blog postings will have their opinions of AA tainted. Alcoholics Anonymous is a gorgeous program of action for the treatment of Alcoholism. I could never repay the debt of sobriety, the sobriety of many of my family members and friends, but, if I'm lucky, I will die trying.

I'm a well travelled AA member and have been to meetings all over the country. I've been to a couple Midtown group meetings and found them largely just like other AA meetings. I'm grateful for the tools I have to get over my own personal resentments, worries, concerns and fears and not have to take them out in public or media.

Folks, please be aware that this is a public forum and our words matter.

Take good care,

Kirk

It's my understanding that AA and it's members generally don't debate; not in private nor in public. I'm sad that folks reading these articles and the blog postings will have their opinions of AA tainted. Alcoholics Anonymous is a gorgeous program of action for the treatment of Alcoholism. I could never repay the debt of sobriety, the sobriety of many of my family members and friends, but, if I'm lucky, I will die trying.

I'm a well travelled AA member and have been to meetings all over the country. I've been to a couple Midtown group meetings and found them largely just like other AA meetings. I'm grateful for the tools I have to get over my own personal resentments, worries, concerns and fears and not have to take them out in public or media.

Folks, please be aware that this is a public forum and our words matter.

Take good care,

Kirk

It's my understanding that AA and it's members generally don't debate; not in private nor in public. I'm sad that folks reading these articles and the blog postings will have their opinions of AA tainted. Alcoholics Anonymous is a gorgeous program of action for the treatment of Alcoholism. I could never repay the debt of sobriety, the sobriety of many of my family members and friends, but, if I'm lucky, I will die trying.

I'm a well travelled AA member and have been to meetings all over the country. I've been to a couple Midtown group meetings and found them largely just like other AA meetings. I'm grateful for the tools I have to get over my own personal resentments, worries, concerns and fears and not have to take them out in public or media.

Folks, please be aware that this is a public forum and our words matter.

Take good care,

Kirk

i got sober in the dc area almost 20 yrs ago and i watched the reality of the mid town group and what they practised. about 17 yrs ago i met a young lady at a mtg at mont general hospital who had gotten involved with the midtown crowd almost from day 1. she was shaking and crying because "they" had told her that she could no longer take her prescribed meds for her depression and bi-polar disease because if she did, she would be "using" and therefore not sober. she desperately wanted to be sober so....she did as she was told. at about 90 days she found a gun and blew her brains out. what i remember best was a midtown "member" saying...."well, i guess she wasn't ready yet". not a bit of remorse.
EVERYTHING that you have printed about the Q group is the gods honest truth and the only ones who will write defending the group are their own members.
keep up the good work

Kirk,

Thanks for your thoughts. As a member with over 20 years, I was horrified to read of the activities of the Midtown group in Newsweek, on the front page of the Sunday Washington Post last month, and to see numerous local TV news stories. A criminal started and is underway. Churches started kicking out meetings. All this happened before any debate on this web site.

I understand a national TV news show is doing the story as well. You seem to getting into this forum late here. I suggest you read the original article and comments at http://blog.washingtonpost.com/rawfisher/2007/07/midtown_group_aa_group_leads_m.html

Yes, many meetings at Midtown aren't very different. But the reality just beneath the surface is sickening. Since the articles came out, I have talked to many people I've known for years, some of them victims of the organized sexual abuse in Midtown, some who confirmed the other exploitation and tactics referred to in the story. I'm afraid this is something AA can no longer ignore.

Midtown is not AA. It is a twisted and perverted version of AA where "service work" means having sex with your sponsor, "selfless" means paying for his vacation and doing his house work and yardwork, "going to any lengths to stay sober" means stopping prescription drugs, breaking off from family, not going to any meeting not a part of the Midtown group, and much more. These are not sensational charges in a tabloid, but researched statements that many members have confirmed since the stories came out through their AA network - stories that many victims had left in the past but now confirm. And it's still happening.

The blame for all this can be left at the feet of the male leadership "hierarchy" at Midtown. The only way the public will blame AA for this is if we now do nothing.

Correction: "...a criminal investigation started and is underway..."

If some of the defenders of Midtown sound juvenile in these comments, it is because they are, in fact, juveniles. That's the problem.

Anyone who travels in DC AA, not under the cult spell of Midtown, knows exactly what is going on with that group. One need only meet a few young female refugees and chat with some AA folks who have been in Washington for a decade or so.

The facts are established. The question is: what does anyone do about it? Relying on Intergroup or New York has never worked. Is it possible for a group of people with long term sobriety to attend all the Midtown meetings, week after week, to spread the genuine message of AA? Can any group of mature adults match the perserverence of an army of 19 year olds?

Kirk wrote: "It's my understanding that AA and it's members generally don't debate; not in private nor in public."

You're right. We "GENERALLY" don't.

Except that in this situation there are minors who are being exploited by older men in the name and guise of AA.

The media has written about it and broadcast it at the local, national, and international level.

I believe that we AAs need to speak out that this is NOT our beloved organization.

That we do not CONDONE what is happening in Midtown.

And explain, not only to the general public, but to Midtown members themselves, where their group has departed from AA principles.

Midtown members are discouraged from attending other AA meetings.

They do not have certain AA-approved literature available to them at their meetings.

They have been told so many things "in the name of AA" which are either half-truths or patently false, that they really don't understand why others condemn or question thier actions.

And they will NOT stick around for any face-to-face discussion once they learn that you are not a Midtown supporter.

And it's been going on for decades.

This seems as good a place as any to explain why they are so "misunderstood" (as they so often claim). To explain what others have seen and experienced. To explain what AA really says about things like sponsorship, finances, medications, and traditions.

If they've never heard that AA frowns upon men sponsoring girls (as I have personally witnessed), then they can't even begin to understand why people think there is something wrong with their group's behavior.

If they haven't been exposed to the ideas in the Traditions, they have no idea how unusual it is that a GROUP of meetings all fall under one umbrella name: Midtown.

If they haven't been allowed to serve at a local or regional level, they have no idea how strange it is that their meetings (which number in the 100s), make no donations to AA. Or perhaps what a "prudent reserve" means w/ regards to group funds.

Most of the people I've met from Midtown are decent, kind people who have little idea of what sets their group apart. They have been told a set of lies about jealousy, resentment, and ignorance regarding anyone who questions or criticizes their group. Most of us are none of those things.

Barring the issues of minors not being able to truly consent, and the use of the AA name, I would be fine with ADULT Midtowners doing whatever they're doing--provided they are making an informed choice.

If they freely choose to give all their money away and sleep with predators, who am I to judge.

Just don't call it AA.

And don't do it to kids who don't know what's going on and can't legally consent to it regardless.

I was once a Midtown member, "ex-Q", and I can honestly and soberly state that all allegations against Mike Q and the Midtown Group are COMPLETELY and UTTERLY TRUE!!!! Mike was a vicious and manipulate dictator of human minds, using A.A. principles as a means for his own self-fulfillment and sexual exploitations. I can say this, because he was my sponsor. I entered the group knowing full well about all the rumors of the group, and was slowly "brain-washed" into their cult-like activities. I was not aloud to associate with friends I had known in the A.A. for years that were not part of the "Midtown" or "Q" group, and that I could only go to meetings with Midtown group members. I was "appointed" a sponsor and not able to chose one for myself. I had at one point 18 service positions in A.A. that keep me estranged from my family. I was told that I needed sex in order to be happy. I was told to stop taking prescribed medicine, that all I needed was the steps and my sponsor. I was told to get Mike Q. as my sponsor and did so. I was sexually approached by Mike several times, and when I turned him down, I was shunned by him and members of the group, not allowed at his beach house, and forced to do yard work, clean his house, not go one trips, ignored my members and friends and made to feel extremely shamed.

"But then there's Midtown, a place where you know people will always be doing something active and sober." I feel so sorry for the person who wrote this and for the people that are still being lured to believe the lies created and dispelled by a sick, perverted man whose only self interest was sex and servicing himself.
Mike and his appointed soldiers used A.A. money and money from A.A. members in the group to finance extravagant vacations in Mystique, California, Florida, and the Islands. Mike bought fancy cars, fancy clothes, and even expensive bed linens with money from members from the group.
I had the displeasure of working very closely with him and witnessed and over-heard many conversations and meetings with members of the group, and they were not AT ALL in line with what A.A. practices.

MIDTOWN and MIKE Q. are an abomination to A.A. and I truly pray that the group with cease to exist now that Mike is DEAD! I am forever grateful I left the Midtown group, and I am grateful and sober member of A.A.

I think DCC and Jane need to get a grip. They are so quick to shout down anyone that offers any kind of different opionion, wether they be from midtown or not.

Why don't you try reading the black parts of pages 60 to 64 in the big book? Just because some has a different opinion, one that you may not agree with, doesn't make either of you right. No matter how justified you believe you are.

Holding onto so much spite and anger really is unhealthy, you may want to take a look at that.

Trying to help people and spread a positive message of recovery is one thing, being spiteful and ugly while doing so, is entirely another. But then again anger, justified or not never really is that attractive, is it?

Ex midtown member,

Where do you go to meetings? Maybe I'll come by and check it out sometime.

My 29 yo brother's recovery from drug abuse is due to his involvement with Midtown. Midtown is largely made up of young people and I think it's helped my brother to be around young people who don't drink/use drugs. It's hard to find that elsewhere! Of course, he's a guy, and I don't have a female's perspective, but I hope everyone remembers that this group has helped a lot of people - my family will be forever grateful.

(blank), I'm unclear what you mean that Jane and I "are so quick to shout down anyone that offers any kind of different opinion".

Can you give an example of this? Because I haven't shouted at anybody. My argument is that the sexual predation of young women who come to AA for help only to be exploited should end now. The exploitation of members should end now.

One of the most evil traits at Midtown is twisting the meaning of AA slogans and literature. "Service work", "selflessness", and "going to any lengths to stay sober" always end up boiling down to having sex with your sponsor and giving money to your sponsor for his vacation or other large purchases. And you talk about "unhealthy"?

The post directly above yours, from "Ex Midtown Member", is from a person whose sponsor was Mike Q, whose real name was Edward Quinones. Perhaps you can address that post rather than making your vague criticism.

If you are interested in something pertinent from our program which explains this controversy, perhaps you could consider the Responsibility Statement we all subscribe to:

"Whenever anyone, anywhere reaches out for help, I want the hand of AA always to be there; And for that, I am responsible."

I take this seriously. I don't want young people, or anyone, who come to AA for help to be exploited and exploited by predators masquerading as AA.

(blank) wrote: "I think DCC and Jane need to get a grip. They are so quick to shout down anyone that offers any kind of different opionion, wether they be from midtown or not.

Why don't you try reading the black parts of pages 60 to 64 in the big book? Just because some has a different opinion, one that you may not agree with, doesn't make either of you right. No matter how justified you believe you are.

Holding onto so much spite and anger really is unhealthy, you may want to take a look at that."
****************

Firstly, I'm not angry or spiteful. Perhaps you are reading a tone into my words that isn't there. I'm concerned about this issue. If there have been children abused then that angers me. But I'm definitely not spiteful and angry about what I perceive to be Midtown's operating outside of AA's principles. Concerned and looking for clarity--but not angry.

Secondly, shouting down? I've asked questions welcoming dialogue and information on this and the other blog repeatedly. I'm very interested in what Midtown supporters have to say on the matter. Most of the responses, however, have been violations of the user agreement, and have not addressed the questions I've posed.

Finally, differing opinions are fine. I've yet to insult, degrade, or attack those with differing opinions. Supporters of Midtown have NOT responded in kind. That is also in black and white for anyone to read.

But the fact of the matter is, is that Midtown does not seem to operate under the guidelines and principles of AA. Those aren't principles I've made up. I didn't write the sponsorship pamphlet where it suggests that we use same-sex sponsors. I didn't write the Tradition that states we do not create outside groups within AA. I didn't write the step which says we make amends to those we've harmed.

So I'm extremely interested in hearing HOW exactly the defenders of Midtown reconcile their claims that Midtown is simply another AA group, with the fact that their group openly tolerates men sponsoring women, calls themselves "Midtown," and jusitifies IT'S behavior with regards to multiple people making some very serious allegations against it.

If those things aren't true, then please show me.

If they are....then those are instances where Midtown is operating outside the AA guidelines--and that's a problem.

Listening eagerly......

You are basing your report on a Myspace page? You truly are pathetic reporter Mark Fisher. Your comment about the moment of silence came from a girl known as Onley Amanda, although she now likes to be called Mandie. Ask her about the people that helped her? Or are you just reading her comments on Myspace?

Mark, please. I am begging you... Grow up. Leave this man's life alone. He died and he will be missed. I hope when I die I will have affected so many people's lives.

ALl... Mike passed away a week ago. Apparently, you have not heard. But he is not around to investigate, harrass, stalk (yes he was stalked by some of you) bother or slander. He is at rest now. Maybe you should all do the same, give it a rest.

Thanks Huhhh, Mark's reporting has been disgusting.

For the record, Midtown's malfeasance was discussed at a Regional Service Assembly meeting BEFORE the original Post article, or any knowledge of it appeared.

Of course your not clear Jane and DCC, exactly my point.

Actually, Mark has done a great service to the community by bringing the atrocities of Mike Q. and the members of the Midtown Group to the attention of the public. Many people have wanted this for a long, long time. Thank you Mark for your reporting. Thank you for this Blog. Thank you for your previous Washington Post article on Mike and Midtown.
Also, thank you to the AA members who have and hopefully will continue to bring Midtown's Malfeasance to the Regional Assemblies.
Mark, you are awesome and an excellent reporter. :-) Thank you!!!!!!!!!

Sorry I spelled your name wrong Marc.
Still think you're an awesome reporter.
Thank you again for your article and this blog.

Dear (blank), I asked for an example to back up your vague and inchoate charge. Where is it?

I think it's interesting that (blank) illustrates perfectly two points from yesterday. The first is that Midtown supporters utilize the "ad hominem abusive" attack in which they attack a person making an argument rather than the argument itself (cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) I have read both these blogs in detail (this and at http://blog.washingtonpost.com/rawfisher/2007/07/midtown_group_aa_group_leads_m.html) and have not seen a single instance where anyone from Midtown has even attempted to refute any of the charges. They have also not answered a single factual question raised by others.

The other point this illustrates is the general reluctance of AA members to get into controversy or to even appear to criticize another person. (blank) tries to make use of this general attitude to counsel me, expressing mock concern about my health and advising me to do a certain reading about anger. This is just another example of Midtown turning good AA advice and slogans into cover for the predators of Midtown.

It's interesting to me that in the face of a rising tide of ex-Midtown members (and by the way, I'm not one and found out about this through the Post article but I have since talked to trusted friends who had been abused but had been embarrassed to discuss it prior to the article) who are coming out with their personal stories of incredible abuse, (blank) focuses his or her selective attention only on those who oppose the abuse.

If (blank) were as reasonable a person as he or she is presenting himself or herself as, wouldn't (blank) show some concern for the victims of the abuse or the predators and parasites who perpetuate it? Wouldn't he or she at least have any interest in whether these incredibly serious charges are true?

Very moving.

I sincerely hope that when you die at least one of your children, or your mother, or just anyone from your family, comes to your funeral. Unfortunately that wasn't the case with Edward Quinones, Jr. aka "Mike Q".

I also sincerely hope that you affect other's lives. But I hope it's positively, not negatively like Edward Quinones, Jr. did.

By the way, does anyone know why he went by his brother's name? Just curious.

(My post was to Huhhh.)

The accusations against Mike Q and his lieutenants concerning sex, money and abuses of power are correct; and the few people defending them are either brainwashed or they are liars.

Oh, and I seriously doubt that the group will dissolve because there's still plenty to be gained by people like Jack, Arno, John, etc. They've clawed their way to the top of the pyramid and with Mike gone the power is there for the taking.

It is rather disturbing that not one post (that I can recall) from any Midtown supporter has addressed the allegations with anything other than, essentially, "So what?" "That's not my problem." "But there's been a lot of good," or many, many personal or character attacks.

That, in and of itself, is not in keeping with the behavior AA suggests for its members.

The point is being made over and over again: Midtown, and its members, have some sort of program, but it is NOT AA.

Either fix your program/group to be in line with AA, or stop using the AA name.

If the behavior and conduct on this, and Marc Fisher's previous blog page, are any indication of what Midtown is like, I simply don't find the allegations of impropreity and abuse to be hard to believe.

If you can't "practice the principles" on a website blog, you aren't going to convince me that you're practicing the principles in other areas.

"By the way, does anyone know why he went by his brother's name? Just curious"

Oh that's a VERY interesting question. Perhaps someone should look into the matter. Who knows what might turn up...

I have been a member of AA in the DC area for over 10 years, however, I've never hit a Midtown meeing nor had I met Mike Q. Having said that, this controversy should be put to bed. The co-founders of AA wrote the traditions to protect ourselves from ourselves. We all have our own program and our own meetings. It is not my responsibility to rescue AA'ers from a meeting that I may feel is harmful to them. My responsibility is to be there when an alcoholic walks through the door of one of my meetings.

"It is not my responsibility to rescue AA'ers from a meeting that I may feel is harmful to them."

I totally agree.

Except in this case it's MINORS.

Whole different kettle of fish...

If we AAs stand by, silent, while children are exploited in the name of our program, then that's wrong.

And b/c this issue has been made public already, to stand by in silence now, I believe, affects the reputation of AA as a whole.

How are we a program of attraction, if we hide, defend, and/or ignore those who exploit children in our ranks?

With Midtown it seem's like the cure is worse than the disease...(if your a young female at least)

What would Bill W. do?, your position is not uncommon in AA. Certainly our primary responsibility is for our own meetings and to preserve our own sobriety and help other alcoholics who walk thru our meeting's doors to achieve sobriety. I have no disagreement there.

I disagree with your position but understand it. I just feel this is hurting our program as a whole and hurts many individuals in the name of AA. I think our traditions assume that everyone in our program is honest, and clearly that's almost entirely true but not 100% true. And we assume that bad meetings will wither away, leaving the true AA. In that Midtown has been abusing women for over 20 years, according to much evidence that has accumulated, that doesn't appear true either.

I agree with many others in this forum that this is a very sad state of affairs for our fellowship and poses some hard decisions, both moral, as to our responsibility for others we don't even know, and for our own sobriety, which potentially can be damaged or lost by some members who might get too much into adversarial conflict in this matter.

I come down on the side of getting involved. At the worst time in my life AA was there for me and I want our miraculous program to be there for others in the future. No one can predict the future but it seems to me that if good members of our fellowship (and that's almost everyone, in my experience) now do nothing our program is in danger and we will live to regret it.

Jane D is absolutely right. People have stood by in silence long enough and let this happen. I left the group a long time ago, THANK GOD! Reading all this commentary as well as the Post and Newsweek articles brings me great happiness that the exploitations of Mike Q. and the Midtown group are finally getting publicized and hopefully there will be repercussions on the group other than their losing meeting space in Churches. At the same time it makes me so sad for all the young members who are caught in the lies and deceit of the Midtown group. Midtown has gotten even worse. It is not surprising. Mike was a predator, and the other top leaders mentioned, are predators of the worst kind. They prey on those who come into a group seeking help and hope. Those who are lured into the group are lavished with phone numbers and movie parties, dances, and social activities, only to be cohered later into sex and mind manipulation. Many of the "young people" that are attracted to this group are under the age of 17. Many of the Senior members who have exploited the members in the group are twice, three, four times their age. Many of the young people who come into the group also come from abusive backgrounds, be it sexual abuse, abusive parents, abuse from the streets, etc. and it leaves them as easy prey for these people. I witnessed it over and over. Mike was the master and trust me, although he is dead, he instructed his soldiers and their girlfriends, now wives, well enough to carry on. I pray for an end to all this sickness. A.A. does not deserve it and neither do the newcomers.

If members of AA feel so strongly that something should be done about the Midtown Group, then become a GSR and/or attend the next WAIA Board of Directors meeting as well as the Washington Area General Service Assembly meeting. If not, there's always Al-Anon.

Isn't one of the traditions of alcoholics anonymous anonymity? The anti-midtown group has been posting names all over their blogs of members.

Also funny is the person who runs that site is like 40 and married to a 21 year old. Went after her when she was a teen.

Renee is Shawn. Shawn is the creator of http://www.myspace.com/thefallofmidtownliars. Shawn is a long term Midtown Member who has spread his lies throughout the internet, while posting my full name, posting pictures of me and videos of my wife, on the internet. I attempted to post my response to what he, and his group has continued to do, but the author of this blog has not accepted it for posting (yet?). I shall try once again, for Shawn had paid no attention to any Traditions that I am aware of, while he has continued his offensive, through his smear campaign Midtown propaganda endeavors. A worse example of a human being you would find most difficult discovering, and he's well established within the Midtown collective. Go figure...

First of all, I have to admit that I was wrong about who created the Myspace profile, "fallofmidtownlairs". I had assumed that it was "sickgirl", because she was (at one point) its only friend and supporter and because of the previous emails that I received from her that were overtly negative and all too frequent. Although I cannot understand why anyone in A.A. would accept a friend request by such a site, I have to make amends to her for calling her out as the creator, now that it has been proven to me that she is not. I am sorry that I called you out as the creator of that slanderously fictitious profile sickgirl. Unfortunately, you allowed yourself to be used by what has been proven to be a Midtown Group member, to help strengthen Midtown, at the cost of A.A. as a whole.

The creator of the "fallofmidtownlairs" Myspace profile is a long term member of the Midtown Group; a group that has represented itself as a cult, and has behaved as such, for over 20 years now. The name of its creator is Shawn. Shawn is a typically weak willed Midtown Group member who has been conditioned to become and remain completely dependent on the Midtown Group. I can say this without any reservation for he, himself, has (publicly) gotten on top of his Midtown soapbox and described how he couldn't stay dry from alcohol without the Midtown Group, and if truth be told, he could not and he did not, when he tried. Perhaps, if he was introduced to A.A.'s program of recovery to begin with, he may have had a real chance to recover from alcoholism. I cannot say.

Myspace, with the help of some very concerned and highly agitated friends of mine were able to track the exact residential address of the thefallofmidtownliars profile creator (Shawn), by several methods; one of which was a means of tracking, known as "pinging". I'm not going to pretend that I understand the exact process, or the small pains that they took to secure all of the other information involved, but the result points to one person, and that person is Shawn, who lives in a typical Midtown Group Home, near Seven Locks Road. Sickgirl obviously does not live near, or around Seven Locks Road. There are two other Midtown informational sources that have confirmed that he was the creator.

These helpful individuals were able to discover several other identities that Shawn currently uses, in order to spread his Midtown Propaganda. These online identities are, but are not limited to:

onegoodlookinthemirror@gmail.com

timparsons1@gmail.com

timparsons2@gmail.com

AndynMaryland

www.doitsober.com

MySpace URL: http://www.myspace.com/thefallofmidtownliars

And "Easy", also of Myspace, who happens to be thefallofmidtownliars only real friend.

There are several other web addresses that are documented, but those show the exact identity of Shawn. Out of my respect for A.A., I would prefer to handle this without revealing his full identity. He did not respect my identity, by any stretch of the imagination, when he posted my full name on various web addresses, as he stated that I was stalking and 13 stepping my wife when she was 16. What Shawn knows, all too well, is that she was preyed upon when she was 15/16 with less than two weeks experience in A.A. A Midtown Group member who was in his 30's preyed upon her, as he had with numerous 14/15/16 year olds, over a period no less than 10 years... To suggest that this pedophile was the only one (in the Midtown Group) who behaved as such, would create a large laugh throughout many other A.A. groups, as well as within many Midtown meetings. Every time I hear people saying that that never happens, I want to spit in their face. To be sure, when I first read Shawn's shining example of his spiritual program, I and others, wanted to do worse than that to him.

The truth is that many of these females that were preyed upon or basically raped, before or after their 16th birthday, have such a level of disgust over what was done to them (by the Midtown Group-as-a-whole) that many of them choose to walk forward and attempt to wash themselves of that horrible experience. Remember, it's usually their sponsorship lineage, and their "closest Midtown friends" that led them to that (possibly ongoing) horrible experience, then it was their sponsorship lineage, and their "closest Midtown friends" that manipulated them to suck it up and hold it deep inside of then, less they be ostracized from the only higher power that most of them have been manipulated to become co-dependent on. Don't even mention the fact that the judicial system is not gentle with those who have been victimized and want justice. Most of them, and for damn good reason, have little interest in being victimized twice.

Every time Shawn emailed me, over a period of 6 months, he used the name onegoodlookinthemirror. I initially assumed that it was Sickgirl because she was sending her emails through Myspace, at around the same time. When I finally blocked him, he began emailing my friends, with personal information about me, which included pictures of me, and previous Myspace comments, that I had posted up to six months before he had emailed me. To suggest that he is overtly obsessed with me would be a vast understatement. Unfortunately, his obsession didn't stop with me, nor did the harm stop with him. He has had help from other Midtown Group members, who have (for the most part) apparently worked independently of one another, in order to publicly discredit ex midtown members who have spoken out against the group and the harm that they provide to A.A.'s vulnerable Newcomers.

Shawn, as well as (at least) three other (confirmed) Midtown Group members (of whom I will not identify by name at this time) have continually posted the contents of previous Midtown Group member's personal 5th steps or intimately private conversations on the internet, after those that confided in them were ostracized from the Midtown Group. Need a recent example? On the internet is a (less than two week old) posting from one of these 4 Midtown Group members who heard, in an extremely intimate and private conversation, how another (now ostracized) member drank the bath water of his Guru. This was discussed, at depth, in full confidence that this Midtown Group member would not disclose that which was meant to be heard by him and the higher power of the person who was discussing this with him. Unfortunately, for most of the Midtown Group, the group itself is their higher power, so the established hierarchy of the group hears a great many of these 5th steps and extremely intimate and private conversations . This behavior was first established by Mike, who encouraged his trusted Lieutenants to tell what was discussed in their pigeons 5th steps. I remember seeing this when Mike was my grand sponsor, over 20 years ago. That behavior, as well as others, have only become more refined since then. What these Midtown Group members have done, in regards to this behavior (out of many), as it relates to A.A.'s principles, is criminal.

This is one of the ways that the Midtown Group attempts to discredit the members who are voluntarily or involuntarily exiting, as they are being ostracized from the only higher power that they were motivated to rely upon. You see, if those exiting members thrived outside of the care of their self made higher power, then Midtown's hypothesis that anyone who left the group will drink, would crumble, and as a result, the fear that holds a great many of them there, would no longer work. Keeping them distracted by sex, (false) status, (false) security and humorous activities can only keep the young people there distracted for so long. I cannot even begin to calculate the amount of harm that these Midtown Group members have consciously implemented; all so that their self made higher power could thrive and temporarily relieve them of their thirst for alcohol and destructive habitual tendencies. What most of them have chosen to ignore, is the entirely new and destructive set of behaviors that their new group, as a whole, have helped them to implement.

Here's a little personal information about the thefallofmidtownliars profile that a few Midtown members already knew of.

One the date of its conception, Shawn, several other Midtown members, Anna and I shared a single cabin at a spiritual retreat, hosted by A.A. members, both inside of and outside of the Midtown Group. These A.A. members endeavored to create a growing sense of unity throughout our local fellowship, as our differences continued to rise and climb, because of the Midtown Group, its philosophy and a great many A.A. members having difficulty accepting or understanding it. On the second day of the retreat, while I was conducting an 11 step workshop, Shawn created thefallofmidtownliars profile. The reality of the situation is that he was not alone in this creation. Several other Midtown Group members knew about this at the time, or very soon afterward. Another reality is that a Midtown Group member called me a couple of days afterward, and expressed a sincere disgust over what was done to Anna and me. For this, I thank him. It made me remember that there are individuals with character left inside of the Midtown Group, and that I have to remember this fact.

That Saturday night, as a true musician and I played music together in front of a beautiful fire, I also made fireplace treats for those sitting around the main musician. I approached Shawn with one of them and offered it to him unconditionally. He accepted it without gratitude, as I would have expected from him, then I continued playing the drums on a true musician's guitar case. That night, Anna offered him and the other Midtown group members blankets, because it was getting colder. One of them accepted a blanket with gratitude, for that person was ill prepared for the night weather. The next day he stayed physically inactive in the hectic kitchen as people worked around him, in order to make breakfast for everyone there. He video taped my (then) fiancée climbing on the chef's rack (in order to help stabilize the chef's working environment), hoping that she would fall. When he sarcastically asked her a fairly stupid question, she chose to ignore him and he posted that on the internet as well.

When he created that site and posted various other lies about her and I on other internet web sites, he knew, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that Anna and I were not only coming up on our Birthdays in a couple of days, but that we were to be married in less than a week. As with most alcoholics with untreated alcoholism, he remains in a state of conscious misery, and as with most alcoholics who are fixated within this constant and horrible state, he would prefer that others remain there with him. In a large way, I do feel sorry for him. To be within his head, alone at night with his eyes closed and nothing but his misery to distract him from himself, would be a state of being that I would find unbearable indeed.

In ending, I would like to offer the clearest case of hypocrisy that I have ever seen in my entire life and I'm offering it up to you, for your viewing displeasure.

View for yourself, just how hypocritical and dishonest this Midtown Group member is. Remember, he is NOT acting alone. On www.doitsober.com (of which he is the administrator) he wrote this message and then stated that an A.A. member outside of the Midtown Group wrote it. I highlighted the parts which are overtly hypocritical and dishonest. In essence, Shawn created the site to defend the Midtown Group, then wrote a defensive letter to that site, then stated that it wasn't himself who wrote it. After which, a couple of months later, he created thefallofmidtownliars. A greater monument to hypocrisy you will never see.

I really enjoy this discussion. I have noticed how many of us have gone back to AA's traditions in our responses. That's a beautiful thing. It shows how powerful and timeless these traditions are. As any AA member knows, these traditions are but guidlines....although like the steps, guidelines many of us take damn seriously! While I agree with 'WWBD' in principle, I have to say that my interpretation of our 10th tradiiton, 'Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy,' IMHO has to do with AA as a whole entering public debates. I don't believe that it covers individual AA members discussing AA in a public forum.

I agree that we have to be mindful as to not damange the name and image of AA, but on the other hand, the practices of Midtown have already damaged our fellowship, and I believe that it is the duty of long-time AA members with experience in the program to provide positive information as to what AA is and isn't. We do exactly the same thing in our Public Information practices where we go out to the public and provide positive info on who we are and what we do. In my opinion this discussion is no different.

This stuff goes on all over the meetings, it's called 13 stepping. Just last year there was a woman up in Germantown who killed herself due to this stuff. Guys hounded her, not because of looks, but because she couldn't stay sober and was easy when she was drunk. Many guys with double digit sobreity were even bringing beer over to her house to get her drunk to get laid.

Alice, it's horrible that this happened in Germantown. Now if you make this a premeditated, assembly line procedure which is done to all newcomer attractive females, by assigning them to older male sponsors, and by twisting all the AA slogans and traditions, you have Midtown.

Well, I'm pretty sure they don't try to get the women drunk, I will grant them that.

Anonymous, I agree. This debate is not about "outside issues". It is expressly about preserving our program. This blog debate probably has one-twentieth of one percent of the non-AA audience that the Newsweek and Washington Post articles had. It seems to me it's quite helpful in bringing out many varying opinions and in showing the character of those who hold the opinions. For that reason I wish the Washington Post *would not censor any comments* as they have been doing. We know what we are going to get here if we criticize Midtown. We ought to be each free to express ourselves and draw our own conclusions, just as we are in an authentic AA meeting. Hopefully, everyone can hold the profanity and the worst abuse, but for those who cannot, their language expresses their character far more than their content.

I also strongly believe that the only way AA could be harmed here is if real AA members do nothing, and in five years we are reading about even more sexual predation and exploitation at Midtown. It's a black mark against us that the predators have apparently been working their abuse for twenty years. To have it continue now would be disgraceful.

What Would Bill W. Do? wrote: "If members of AA feel so strongly that something should be done about the Midtown Group, then become a GSR and/or attend the next WAIA Board of Directors meeting as well as the Washington Area General Service Assembly meeting. If not, there's always Al-Anon."

I think many people who live in DC are getting involved at that level. And have been for some time.

Not everyone lives in DC, though. That shouldn't preclude anyone from calling for answers with regards to these issues.

I find your "Al-Anon" comment very strange.

The suggestion that one is co-dependent because s/he is concerned about whether or not a cult-like group (Midtown has been on cult watch lists for years), carrying the AA name, and accused of preying on children is actually doing these things, is very strange to me.

If this is, indeed, happening how can we stand by and do nothing?

How can we have anything less than a ZERO-tolerance stance if criminals are in our ranks, using our program of love and honesty to prey on children?

How are we supposed to discern where the truth is if we don't ask hard questions and hold the situation up to the light?

If wanting to know whether children have been exploited in the name of AA makes me co-dependant, then so be it, I suppose.

I frankly can't fathom why anyone would object to investigating and denouncing criminal activity with CHILDREN. Or suggest that others who do so have some issues.

I will not keep quiet when I know that our program is being perverted and twisted by a small few, and presented as AA so that pedophiles can have sex with children.

And when all one needs do is stop into a Midtown meeting to see that these men routinely and openly sponsor underage girls, have a history of romantic relationships with underage girls, and have opportunity to be alone with underage girls in private settings........well, it sure doesn't look good. And it makes these allegations seem a lot less far-fetched than they otherwise might.

I think people (AA or not) deserve some answers from this group.

These are very serious issues.

If their members are 100% innocent, then at a minimum they ought to be very carefully looking at what they have done to get themselves in this situation. And working to fix it. Because this has not all just "happened" to them.

And neither has it just happened to the rest of AA. We all bear some part in doing an inventory and making amends.

Because, out of this, AA's name has been publically linked to cult tactics, pedophiles, dispensing dangerous medical advice, and more.

I don't think AA's name ought to be linked with those things and now ALSO linked with a membership who doesn't care if they're happening or not.

I strongly agree with Jane D. ZERO TOLERANCE should be our policy. In addition to all the other abuses, children have been molested in Midtown.

I have contributed to and followed these two blogs for several weeks and I can't think of a more succinct statement about this whole issue than Jane's last two sentences:

"Because, out of this, AA's name has been publically linked to cult tactics, pedophiles, dispensing dangerous medical advice, and more.

"I don't think AA's name ought to be linked with those things and now ALSO linked with a membership who doesn't care if they're happening or not."

Thank you, Jane D.!

So what are you going to do about it? Does it upset me that young paople are being exploited, yes! The police have been involved, yet they can't dig up any evidence to prosecute these people. So what can you do about it?

This group has been going strong for many, many years and I'm sure the issue has been talked about at the area committee meetings. What have they done about it? It all goes back to the 12 Traditions. What are you going to do about it?

Al-Anon is not just about co-dependency. It's about living and let live. We are powerless over people, places and things. If you have the courage to change the things you can, do it. So what are you going to do?

What would Bill W. do?

I have no idea what the solution is.

For my part, I hope that my participation in this forum will expose even a few Midtown members to some specific reasons why people believe they are not practicing the principles of AA in several areas.

Reasons, which are not based on spite, anger, or resentment. Truly it's the principles before personality, for me.

If one Midtown member can hear that it might be advantageous for their group to do a formal Group Inventory and carry that idea to the group, where some self-examination and healing can occur that would be a wonderful start.

If the idea that they could begin to work with other AAs (at the local level and beyond) to make amends for this public relations situation hasn't occurred to them as being something to consider, then I hope they can read that here and consider it.

As I've said before, many parts of our program have been twisted or omitted in Midtown. If Midtown members do not know that there IS an AA approved pamphlet on sponsorship which clearly suggests that we use same-sex sponsors (and if that pamphlet is not displayed at the meetings they are attending, then how could they ever know that?), I would hope that that information here could help them better understand what they are choosing, and why people are critical of their practice of men sponsoring women and girls.

Also, I think it's important the if any of the general public is reading, that at least some sober members of AA clearly state, "We do NOT condone, endorse, or defend the type of behavior this group has been accused of. Further, we welcome ANY investigation into their actions--and our own--which will allow the truth to come to light."

Other than that, I'm praying about it and trusting that the truth will come out.

DCC, Jane, WWBD - There is IMO some really healthy debate and important discussion going on in this blog. This is really important stuff and Jane/DCC, WOW, what a team...your points are sooooo right on. If enough old-timers and people with interest and time started going attending their Sunday night meeting, could they bring change from the inside out? How many would it take? Seems to me that's the only way its going to happen. After that, start a new intergroup...they've been half the problem by completely ignoring you.

Atlanta:
"If enough old-timers and people with interest and time started going attending their Sunday night meeting, could they bring change from the inside out?"

What a shame and sad this is here and not possible with todays sponsorship system which is not even mentioned in the Big Book.

There is many clones breaded by the system
One day I hope one can of being true to thy self instead of being a clone.

It is impossible to be true to thy self when looking for the truth in others.
The sponsorship system is an institution inside of A.A.

sory to say this - this a washington post blog - yes about an aa member, and a renagade group, but the debate on what to do, with all the aa slogans are really going above the publics head. So if you are indeed trying to reach the masses, please step out of your AA slogans, jargon, or parot talk and take the debate to an AA platform. Not the post. I am sure AA has websites for these type of discusions. The public does care about abuses that have occured, but really dont care about how AA or Midtown will fix themselves post Mike Q's death. people will want to see justice, as needed, to serve the public.

sorry - I thought the AA debate was out of touch.

Question, how long have you been off your meds? It wasn't a good idea.

Yes, they were supplying this woman with alcohol left and right. One even showed up at her doorstep with a fifth of whiskey. I have heard many woman say they found booze daddies by coming to AA.

exex, I think probably almost everyone reading and participating is an AA member, although I recall you are not (at least if you are the previous exexex :-)

I think we do need a place to discuss although the sites I've visited don't seem to have nearly the depth of discussion we are having here. I also think the extraneous comments like that above ("how long off meds") and the unpleasant ones keep us reminded of what's at stake.

But I think that 'what would bill do' is absolutely correct. We should organize and do something. There was a post yesterday which I'll find by an Xer that had ideas on how Midtown could improve - I believe they were to allow Midtowners to go to outside meetings, account for their money, and allow any AA member to vote at a group conscience meeting. I was kind of shocked that such things are apparently prohibited now, though I guess I shouldn't be.

I have been in contact with folks here by receiving email on midtownfeedback@yahoo.com and I welcome more. I'm trying to get some things sorted out in my life now but I can make some time to do some work here...

For the peroson who said "I hope Mike is in a better place." Well we all know that Hell is warmer than Costa Rica! He can keep that eternalk tan!

Booze Daddies??? That's just gross. And I'm really sorry to hear about that woman in Germantown...that is so sad.

I would like to add that I hope the new leaders of the Midtown group are monitored somehow...these guys are Q's disciples afterall and I think many of us already know what some of these guys are capable of. So I hope that the people who have been attacking this problem head on continue to do so. Your work is important and I believe it will save lives.

All of the allegations are true. I've sponsored at least 10 women out of this group. Most of the horror stories are the same with a little variation between STD;s, taking meds away, multiple abortions, financial exploitation and 5th-step distribution to the leader (Mike Q) called "Full Disclosure".... But all had a common denominator..sex with assigned older men in the group. I have been sober in AA for 18 years and I have never heard of Full Disclosure, in fact quite the opposite.
Is there a solution? Not as of yet. As long as they continue to infiltrate WAIA and H&I, AA as a whole wil suffer greatly! More will be revealed!

good riddance

It is what it is who can be the watch dog another self proclaimed sponsor. Is there any non drinkers on the board? If there were surly this group would be removed from the directory as some kind of justice and an example to others who promotes in A.A.

ATTENTION ALL WOMEN STILL IN MIDTOWN (and any others looking for a good women's meeting):

I attend one of (if not THE) strongest women's meetings in the area: STEP SISTERS on Thursday nights at Good Shepherd Church in G'Burg at 7:30. It's very close to 270. There are SEVERAL women there who used to be in Midtown. There are SEVERAL more who very recently left Midtown and are trying to start over. They are broken, confused and full of fear. But they are trying, and they are willing one day at a time to make a positive change.

Step Sisters is a group of strong, spiritual women committed to working the Steps of A.A., practicing the principles of A.A., and passing on the message of hope instilled in them from working the program outlined in the Big Book of A.A. We are about 40-50 strong right now, and growing.

Step Sisters is focused on THE STEPS. We don't come and dump about our day. We don't stray off topic. We don't whine about the problem. We are not full of self-pity. We stay focused on the solution and we share openly about how a Higher Power is working through us to help others in the spirit of love and service.

I have attended MANY women's meetings in the area and I can honestly say that not one holds a candle to Step Sisters. I know how to talk about how my relationship sucks or my boss is a jerk or the guy in traffic cut me off or my family doesn't understand me. But how does that help YOU? I have a responsibility as a woman with double digit sobriety to bring a positive message of recovery to those still suffering and to keep my complaints reserved for my sponsor and my H.P.

If you are looking for a way out but don't know where to go or how to start: YOU ARE NOT ALONE.

I know from talking with these women how hard it is to leave Midtown. Leaving essentially means giving up most of your friends, your sponsor, your boyfriend, and a way of life ingrained in you from Day 1 at the Midtown Group. It's also hard to hear A.A. slogans and jargon and discern what is true and what is not. I believe certain members in Midtown knowingly (or unknowingly) use these phrases for their own selfish, controlling purposes. So to hear them in regular meetings can be nauseating and confusing. But keep coming back...eventually you WILL BE returned to sanity and you WILL SEE the difference between Midtown and regular A.A.

I also empathize with how extremely painful and difficult it is to leave the only home group you've ever known, especially when other meetings aren't necessarily full of people who will be your instant friends or who will know where there are 5 fun things to do this weekend. But recovery is also about asking for help -- there isn't always going to be an onslaught of A.A.'ers reaching out to you. Sometimes we have to reach out ourselves, let people get to know us, open our mouths and share that we are in pain. We can help you. Life doesn't have to be full of fear. From working the Steps they way they are outlined in the Big Book, you CAN be released from fear.

Lastly, A.A. HAS NO RULES: You get to pick your sponsor; SHE is not assigned. Your sponsor should not share your 5th Step with ANYONE w/out your permission, period. You get to pick who you want to open your legs for (if anyone). You get to pick which meetings to go to! You get to decide who to trust and who not to! You get to decide which service position to take (hopefully at the gentle guidance of a sponsor who genuinely cares about your well being). You get to decide who to live with. You get to decide where to work. And yes, you can function and do things that feel right in your gut WITHOUT GUILT.

Real A.A. has no leaders, no hierarchy, and no dictators who preach how they think you should be working your program. I cannot stress this enough. Any guilt or shame inflicted upon you by other members of Midtown for ANYTHING you've done or said, or any questions you've raised about the group, no matter how small, is total B.S. and a way to control you with fear tactics and the threat of relapse. Come out of the darkness and into the Light! We are here for you in the Fellowship of the Spirit.

SO PLEASE JOIN US NEXT THURSDAY. We would love to meet you, and become part of your new, healthy, FUN network. Let us love you until you can love yourself again!

"This is really important stuff and Jane/DCC, WOW, what a team...your points are sooooo right on."

OMG, this is too funny. Bwa-ha-ha

Oh you are so right, no, no, you are even more right. Yes, yes, I know I know, I am right and you are right, and this blog is soooo helpful. Look what we have accomplished so far, so much more to do. So glad you're here, you are so right, did I already say that?

Midtown should be banned, everyone there is sex crazed, raping children (Mind you, there are only two people in that group under 16, one male/one female). They stole the treasury of waia, one of them highjacked a plane flew it to Mike Q's house, and then put a box of AA chips along with the entire WAIA and Midtown treasury inside the plane, then flew it to Cuba, stole Fidel Castro's (our hero) cigar AND his beard, and then gave it to the British Royal Family.

Then they gave cookies to everyone with sexually suggestive slogans like, "Have a Nice Day" "Keep Coming Back" "Live and Let Live"

Who do they think they're fooling with these cookies? I think we all know what "keep COMING back" means, disgusting they are to put the word 'coming' on a cookie. SEX freaks. "Have a Nice Day", we all know that is sexually suggestive and really is just code for "I think That You and Me Should Begin a Relationship That Includes Intercourse, By The Way, Nice Beret"

Do you see these concrete examples I'm giving here? If this isn't evidence, then what is?

A correction:

I think my post came across as stating that Step Sisters is the only healthy women's meeting in the area. True, of the ones I've been to in the area (I'd say about 20 or 30), it (is in my opinion only) the healthiest. But as was so lovingly pointed out to me just now, Step Sisters is not the ONLY healthy women's meeting in the DC area. Each person needs to discover what works for them. Sorry for tooting the Sisters horn!

I relate to you 'ha ha'. I attended Midtown one time. After the meeting one time, I was having a conversation with a male member there and we were talking about ex-presidents of the United States. I shared that my favorite president was Kennedy, and then he shared that his favorite president was Eisenhower.

Then later I thought, "Oh My God, Eisenhower is some kind of Midtown code". It really means Eisenhower late for the gang bang.

Damn, I'd been had! That was the last time I'd ever go there. On my way out someone asked me if I was okay and then said that, and I quote, "don't worry, it gets better, keep coming back".

Disgusting.

Does anyone really take seriously the notion that compelling newly sober girls to have sex will in any way help them stay sober? Seriously? Does this sound like some old charlatan gratifying himself while cloaking it beneath the banner of sobriety, Jesus Christ, take your pick. So long as the girls in question are not minors and the act therefore criminal, Michael Quinones and those who continue his methods may be sociopathic but still entitled to do as they please. But it is anathema to the program of AA found in the Big Book and everywhere else. They should call it something else.

From a friend:

Please join us at Language of the Heart. We meet Saturdays at 9am at St. John's Lutheran Church on Aspen Hill Road. Since I have been to both Step Sisters and LotH, I can safely say that LotH is another healthy women's meeting.

ha ha and Yup, I relate to you so much. I had a Midtown experience too. I was out of detox and went to one of their meetings. First thing that happened was someone greeted me at the door, AND it was a guy. He shook my hand and smiled at me. He smiled, what a freak! This guys standing there at the door shaking people's hands and smiling at them. Sex sex sex. So obvious. Then someone else walked in and he shook their hand too and he smiled at them TOO. He did this to everyone that wallked in the meeting. I called the police immediately but then realized that the number I'd been given for the cops was really the rejection hotline. So I got mad and hung up.

At the time, I had no place to live and I ended up having to crash at one of the Midtown members houses for a night. I slept on the couch at a house, and when I woke up the people that lived there started talking to me about sobriety and AA stuff. Then they gave me towel and told me I could take a shower. So I did. When I got out of the shower, they had prepared for me a hearty breakfast for me to eat. So I did. I ate the breakfast and it was good. Sex freaks. I was just waiting for the moment of truth here because I had heard all the rumors.

Then I realized that I was in the moment of truth already. THAT BREAKFAST HAD BEEN PREPARED REALLY FAST. No one, I mean no one does it that quick except for McDOnalds. So I looked around the room searching desparately for the Ronald McDonald clown to come popping out at any moment. He never did. THERE WAS NO CLOWN!

I started to freak out, my heart began racing rapidly and then I lost it. I bolted out the door and ran away as fast as I could and immediately called the police on this group for the second time. But the police did not answer. Instead I got the owner to local bakery, wrong number again. So I ordered some lemon blintzes to be picked up later that afternoon. I never went back to Midtown again.

I hope this story has helped some of you. :)

Soberindc stated "Lastly, A.A. HAS NO RULES: You get to pick your sponsor; SHE is not assigned"

A.A. has no rules? then right away they say WOMANS "ONLY" MEETING again separating the woman from the fellowship again under a good cause of course the sick judgments of another and the weak and weary follow. Your sponsor is not assigned? Are you tell me that sponsorship is not promoted in A.A.? Is an out right lie. New comers are tormented that if they don't get ONE they will get drunk and "YOU" are one of the tormentors, promoting a meeting that keep other genders out.
Do you really think you are you helping alcoholics? or are you trying just helping yourself?
A.A. is to carry the message to anyone anytime anywhere. What your actions are doing, is beyond any practical logic of help.

We don't pick your sponsor, but we will inseminate others to the end to get a sponsor.

Why all this sponsorship craze stuff? womans ONLY meeting? and on and on?
Why not JOIN A.A.? If one will read the simple 5th grade text Big Book, uninterrupted by others, on ones own. An A.A. fellowship will come, "Its in a vision for you in the Big Book" . Not this sponsorship crap having to administer the steps to someone already here and keeping out others already here.

The third TRADITION states "YOU ARE A MEMBER IF YOU SAY SO" "SIMPLY MEANING " YOU DON"T HAVE TO BE SPONSORED. WE ARE NOT ALLIED WITH AN INSTITUTION or INSTITUTIONAL WAYS
Bill W saw your sect types coming, that's why the Traditions were needed, but don't speak of them in the heavy sponsored meetings around, you will fell the group will not any couscous. The Outside sponsorship system is only spreading cancer and propaganda in A.A - Someone forgot that the help comes from one "THAT ONE" is God, not and the outside sponsor.
Trust in him "before" you clean house not in the proclaimed system that claims it. Opening you own eyes, and ask yourself for once, who have I really helped here, as if I was the one who even did. Sectioning others off from the fellowship of the whole to The sponsorship system is crazy.
Bill W say it clear we are not allied with any sect. Sponsorship and Stage meeting SECTtion others off from the whole.
IF YOU DON"T GOT IT - YOU WILL GET IT. Got It !!!

I feel sorry for people who use humor as a defense mechanism to evade the Truth. I guess it would be better if it were funny humor.

So because YOU had a good experience there, it's outside the realm of possiblity that someone else (many people, it seems) had a different experience?

And you find it appropriate to belittle women and girl's claims of sexual misconduct?

Nice.

Even if these women and girls are pathological liars who have fabricated this entire ruse, you still have a responsibility to conduct yourselves appropriately. Yet, the Midtown members/defenders here seem to be behaving in a way that is NOT in line with AA's principles. Odd.

How you get "midtown should be banned" from the posts here is beyond my comprehension. That's quite a straw man.

Again....how is Midtown dealing with this publicity situation?

And if you don't think they have a responsibility to deal with it, could you explain why.

Timewilltell: the women's meeting in Midtown consisted of meeting at Mike Q.'s house. Mike led the meeting and the newcomers sat on the floor. I'm sure Mike had lots of experience as a woman so he was the logical choice to lead the meeting each week. Since he's 6 feet under I guess there won't be anymore women's meetings at Midtown, so no wonder you are down on women's meetings. How can men have any control over their women if they're meeting only with each other? And you're right! There is no logical way anyone could get and stay sober by going to gender-specific meetings. Thank God you reminded us of this vital fact. By the way, either repeat High School Spelling or get off the crystal meth.