The sky is the limit? I say 699 pages is the limit

wait, I was first and didn't do one of those stupid 'first!!!' things? My bad

I hope there are enough maps, as such ...

I like the coaching staff...

When does the 2008 schedule come out for the Maroon and Black.

... Beginning to really like this Zorn dude.

What about 1000 passing plays and 2000 running plays.

"We're just making sure that the pictures [displayed in coaching meetings] match exactly what we want to communicate" to the players..."

I'd say it's pretty straightforward, Coach...

http://www.burrillstrong.com/wordpress/photos/football2007/coffense.jpg

"I'm leaning [on] my coaches," Zorn said.

He should lean on his receivers. They're shorter.

(The pictures are needed to help the new coaches learn the names and numbers of the players.)

Just from looking at the pictures, I'm calling for the Rooty Tooty Fresh n Fruity Double Reverse.

Or perhaps the Cow-patty melt-down for me.

"... People get emotionally attached to players, like Moss, Portis, Campbell, etc..."

Posted by: Sports_Guru | March 19, 2008 03:04 PM

Ask about the emotional attachment to Mike Espy.

Is there any truth to the rumor that the new playbook is being written and assembled by Lorenzo Alexander?

4-12, irritatingly RELEVANT I tell ya!

Serious questions: do the free agents who have not yet re-signed participate in the voluntary workouts? Are they even allowed to do so?

"We're just making sure that the pictures [displayed in coaching meetings] match exactly what we want to communicate to the players..."

Right. Let's get the PR dude from San Francisco to help match pictures and communications -- the one that got fired for the topless honeys. "Here's how you strip the ball..."

"We're hashing over that."

Someone finally listened to bigmurf.

Lorenzo is actually putting the Playbook into a power point presentation, as well as putting copies of it into a 3 ring binder.

Wow, I had forgotten that Stump Mitchell is on the staff. Dude was hired like two weeks ago. Sheesh.

Zorn should really give up that night job at Home Depot. He has nuts and bolts on the brain.

Jason Reid and Elfin's Blog Post are sounding eerily similar over the past 2 weeks.......

Pass left - its the LAW.

BONG!

sportsguru,

i tried to argue the other day that we should trade JC with no success. in fact, weren't you one of the people telling me it was a bad idea? maybe it was someone else. anyway, JC is the exact opposite of the kind of player you want to run a WCO. Todd Collins is the ideal WCO QB. we would be best suited to start collins this year and draft a second-tier QB to groom to be our future WCO QB. This is a fairly weak draft for QBs (although there are several slated to go in rounds 2-3who would be good in the WCO) and Jason Campbell would be great trade bait for a team like Atlanta or Miami. We could definitely get Miamis 2nd rounder plus a 3rd or maybe BOTH of ATLs second rounders for JC. The Ravens are also an option.

I do not see JC having success this year, and i would like to trade him now while his value is at its highest - A bad year in the WCO and his value will only plummet. I know we like Jason, but remember what happened with Patrick Ramsey? One year the dolphins offered us their first round pick for him. Gibbs wanted to keep him - we did, he performed poorly in the offense and the very next year we traded him for a measly 6th rounder. JCs stock could drop just as fast if we don't move him now.

"I'm leaning [on] my coaches," Zorn said, "to make sure I don't do too much."

I wish I had someone to lean on to make sure I don't do too much. Usually I just have people leaning on me, making sure that I don't do too little. And, they're easily fooled.

Cindy,

You were looking good again on the Kornheiser/Wilbon video for St. Patty's day. Just thought you should know.

;)

meatshalom, dlhaze axed the same question a few threads back. Here's the answer I posted, which is a guess but better than nothing:

"dlhaze1, maybe in a few weeks (April 3) per this speculation...

http://www.nflgridirongab.com/2008/03/08/2008-nfl-schedule-to-be-released-april-3rd/"

Great handle you have, by the way. "You had me at shalom, bubbeleh."

Ask about the emotional attachment to Mike Espy.

Posted by: dcsween | March 19, 2008 03:23 PM

---------
I hit my head when I fell off my chair on this one. Thanks dcsween. Gotta go get some ice.

I like Home Depot. Maybe Zorn can hire me to be Assistant Coach - Quality Control, Nuts and Bolts

Thank God Sports Guru (what a laugh) and Seth le master (?) are not running the franchise!

Nate, I apologized (sort of) about the alumna ... alumni ... alumnae ... aluminum situation at the end of the last thread, after the beeps.

So has it been confirmed that the guy with the mug shot in the upper left corner is actually taking a little time off?

[Dorf and Cindy sitting in a tree ...]

sween, no need for an apology. You and me, we are simpatico, brother.

(Now, if you get all Rabachian in response to "nuts and bolts," that will be another matter.)

Montessori, Monticello, Montezuma.

I think Sports_Guru is still at the previous thread ... missed the beep beep.

Dorf
Do you aheva link?

"The nuts and bolts are all there."

Zornism #1: Maroon and Black.
Zornism #2: Nuts and bolts.

Here we go....

Nate, I totally will not touch that one (unless he gets traded to the Chargers). [shudder]

Hey, the writers' strike has been over for a while now. When are we going to stop having to watch "reality" TV, like American Idol five nights a week, such as? Also, does anyone have that link to Smoot's website (not the candy bar one, his regular one)?

If it were up to Sports guru the redskins would be comprised soley of infants and janitors.

Playbook...we don't need no stinking playbook!!!

Antwaan, you run to the Gatorade cooler and turn around...Cooley, stay in and block...Portis, run a butt-and-hook...Santana, go deep...and guys give me some time, so block!!!

There's your playbook! Now where's my 2 mill!!!

sween, Diddy is probably a good source for teevee programming news, once he gets back from Thai.

I read somewhere that sitcoms and lighter fare would be up and running six weeks or so after the writers got back, and the more involved dramas and heavier stuff would take longer to get going.

Not sure about when cHris Larry's stories will resume.

This appears to be a Smoot-friendly web site.

http://www.totalsatisfactionadultholidays.co.uk/?gclid=CLHG_JD6mZICFRz7iAodeB5jDQ

I would not trade Jason Campbell for the following reasons:

1) The development of a young quarterback takes patience and a steady progression.
2) Joe Gibbs mishandled his development sticking with Brunell too long.
3) If not Jason, then who for the long term...Todd Collins?
4) He will light it up somewhere else!

Having said that...JC...play better or we'll trade you!!!

Thanks NateinthePDX. I'll clear my afternoon and evening for my annual SCHEDULE FESTIVITY including steaks and whiskey!!!!!

This just in:

Cowboys fans are ball bags.

I say more trickeration involving Randel El!

Also, on Special Teams...some fake punts and field goals!

Come on, let's play to win!

Quick numbers re-traid 25% of the starters Guru_plan.
Portis 29.816
Campbell 0.140
Moss 8.685
Washington 10.415 (not sure how much of this we have left to pay)
Jon Jansen 9.250

Total 48- 58.27 mill in cap hit.

This just in:

Sports Guru is a ball bag.

I say we give skins fans voting rights in calling the plays! No fan taxation without representation

This is an outstanding offense that can withstand injuries, as evidenced by its success last season when Terrell Owens was hurt.

This is in an article on espn.com

They have to be kidding me. They were one of the worst teams in the NFL while Owens was out.

It sure is clear now that signing Jansen to that huge contract was a huge mistake. I thought it was crazy when they did it. He was obviously on the downside of his career. It is just another example of the Skins incompetence. The Steelers would never do that. We have to remember that most NFL players only have a few good years. Except for QBs and kickers 28 is old and 30 is ancient in the NFL.

Here is a compelling entry from the mock draft industry ... a SEVEN round mock draft.

http://www.newerascouting.com/home/222-seven-round-mock-draft/#more-222

You know, because there is such a high degree of precision about who the FIRST FIVE TEAMS are going to pick, it only makes sense to project it out seven rounds.

Guru, I think I get where you're coming from, the frustration that our roster is getting older and we haven't done much to freshen it up, and the salary cap prevents us from doing a whole lot about it. (And I pity you the avalanche of criticism that your proposals have elicited from the group up here.) But you gotta understand that that's the nature of the beast, dude. That's how business is done in the NFL right now.

As for the playing to win comment, again I think I see where you're coming from, and I hope Zorn shows a go-for-broke mentality, especially since it's his first season as a head coach and expectations may be a wee bit lower than usual (yeah, right).

It would be super great to see a little gunslinging, go-for-broke, letting loose on O and special teams, in the wake of Saint Joe's ultraconservativism.

"Fredo, you're nothing to me now. You're not a brother, you're not a friend. I don't want to know you, or what you do. When you see our mother, I want to know a dy in advance so I won't be here."

sween, maybe "mock draft mock industry"?

Some of you "trade JC" guys, could you please tell me what you think we could trade him for? And who is your sure-fire prospect at QB who is more likely to succeed than JC? I'm in favor of trading him for Ben Rothlisberger, but without that big contract of his. The old, cheap Ben Rothlisberger.

kochendj, Ted Washington just retired this season ... age 39 ... 18 seasons ... starting nearly every game for all but 4 of those seasons (most recently the Browns) ... at nose tackle.

Everybody else, what does "the exception that proves the rule" mean?

Sams3,

ESPN is the official web site of the cowgirls.

dc, who did that 7 rounder have as the Redskins picks in the first 3 rounds?

ESPN is the official web site of the cowgirls.

Posted by: kerzon417 | March 19, 2008 04:18 PM

Seriously Michael Eisner is giving BJ's *SJK* to Romo right now.

Sams3,

ESPN is the official web site of the cowgirls.

Posted by: kerzon417 | March 19, 2008 04:18 PM

For a moment there i forgot...

For all you armchair GM's out there consider this...

It takes time and draft picks to get younger. Credit Greg Williams and the FO for going younger on defense though:

Golston
Montgomery
Wilson
Evans
Blades
McIntosh
Landry
Doughty
Carter (29)

Still have some veteran leadership

Fletcher
Griffin
Daniels
Smoot
Springs

Once we draft Springs' replacement, we will be set.

It would be super great to see a little gunslinging, go-for-broke, letting loose on O and special teams, in the wake of Saint Joe's ultraconservativism.

Posted by: NateinthePDX | March 19, 2008 04:14 PM

---------

Nate,

I am hoping this is one of the reasons that Chris Meidt was hired. Talk about gunslinger.

I made the mistake of listening to Europe this morning on my way to work...

I hope you don't have to go a day with "Final Countdown" stuck in your head.

For some of you who will now be humming it, I apologize.

greg(b), only b/c I like you ...

1. Derrick Harvey, DE
2. DaJuan Morgan, S
3. Oniel Cousins, OT
4. [Denver!]
5. Steve Justice, C
6. Carl Stewart, FB
7. D.J. Wolfe, S

JC is the exact opposite of the kind of player you want to run a WCO. Todd Collins is the ideal WCO QB.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 19, 2008 03:33 PM

I think what you meant to say is that the WCO is ideal for Todd Collins, not the other way around. The only role Todd Collins is ideal for is being an unknown backup QB, with little to no film to study against him, in Al Saunders' system. I find it hard to believe that an ideal WCO quarterback couldn't find any starting job while hitting free agency.

Either way, you and Guru underestimate Campbell. His limits reach far higher than that of Collins, and he already has documented success in a WCO (relative to his experience). His best year in college was in the West Coast, so if he's going to make it in the pro's, chances are the WCO will be best suited for him. If you guys were calling the shots, you probably would've dumped Eli, Peyton, and Drew Brees because of one or more less-than-stellar seasons in their young careers. To even think about trading Campbell is ludicrous.

SETH.LEMASTER,

Good grief will you give it a rest about JC already. Have you forgotten he ran the West Coast Offense at Auburn. Call me crazy but I think he can handle it, in fact I'd almost be willing to bet that he will do so well you will be eating those words come playoff time.

That mock draft is ridiculous. They do not even have the Skins drafting a WR at all

greg(b), only b/c I like you ...

1. Derrick Harvey, DE
2. DaJuan Morgan, S
3. Oniel Cousins, OT
4. [Denver!]
5. Steve Justice, C
6. Carl Stewart, FB
7. D.J. Wolfe, S

Posted by: dcsween | March 19, 2008 04:27 PM

---------
And some think WR is a need!

dc, you're the man.

I hate that draft, for the record. Why would we go S in the second round?? CB, G, WR, T, is where we have more pressing needs.

2 safeties, and 1 center. wow..

And some think WR is a need!

Posted by: kerzon417 | March 19, 2008 04:29 PM

Not after we trade Betts and Moss for Chad Johnson.

Here's the "Talking Points" videos from the WaPo website.

I have a crush on Cindy Boren. No lie.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2007/03/21/VI2007032101985.html

At least newerascouting got off to a good start. It went downhill quickly after that. (Apparently he didn't hear Vinny's comments about DTs, Guards, and CBs.) I don't think he has to worry about getting a real scouting job anytime soon.

1st-Derrick Harvey
2nd-Safety
3rd-O. Tackle
5th-Center
6th-Fullback
7th-Safety

perhaps they should rename that site,
nevereverbeenascout.com

I'm already feeling dirty about admitting this, but looking at other college prospect sites, both the OT (Cousins) and the C (Justice) in that 7 round mock draft are projected to be better guards in the pros.

or - nevergonnabeascout.com

Here is another 7 rounder. Has the Skins taking a guard in round 1

http://www.drafttek.com/round12008.html

Funny on Meidt, kerzon. Good stuff.

Dorf, I used to loathe "Final Countdown," but now I can't hear those synths on the ipod in my mind without seeing GOB Bluth, usually with a smoke machine going, gearing up for some illusion or other. So I kind of like it.

kochendj is NOTFarve.

Posted by: psps23 | March 19, 2008 04:27 PM

Agree 100%

Play calling last season did nothing to help JC's stats. He has alot to learn, but will succeed IMO.

Great, Sween, but you still can't explain picking not 1 but 2 Safeties.

howtomakeamockeryoutofadraft.com

"I have a crush on Cindy Boren. No lie."

Posted by: Dorf | March 19, 2008 04:33 PM

I totally nailed it on the "sitting in the tree" line. I can hang up my hat as amateur GM and become amateur yenta. [Dorf: what you're noticing is her new do ... and that she pulls her hair behind her left ear now ... mrrrrrrooww!]

tafka, safeties, even scrubs destined for special teams, do really well on special teams ... tacklers on kick-offs, blockers of punts, such as.

Still, its an "industry" thing, so I'm not one to criticize ... these guys must know what their doing or they wouldn't be in the industry.

sween... kind of creepy.

Cindy, I don't stalk you... just admire from afar.

I can't speak for sween.

Further proof that nocluescouting.com is a joke. (There is no chance this guy will last beyond the 3rd round.)

6th Round

172. Carolina Panthers-Jeremy Zuttah-OG-Rutgers

Trading JC would be idiocy. Sure the jury is out on him and he will be turning 27 but this is basically the year where we learn if JC is capable of becoming a top tier starter or not. Giving up that option value would be a disaster as no one would pay much for it now.

That said I won't be surprised when Zorn pushes for drafting a QB again...QBs love QBs.

Greg,

2nd 7 round industry, er mock draft:

21 Albert OG
52 L. Jackson DE USC
85 Donnie Avery WR Huston
Denver
149 Martin Rucker TE Missouri
180 David Vobora OLB Idaho
213 Spencer Larsen ILB Arizona

kerz, thanks for the hookup, that one makes a little more sense, but why so many linebackers....

That said I won't be surprised when Zorn pushes for drafting a QB again...QBs love QBs.

Posted by: zornskins | March 19, 2008 04:46 PM

-------------

I am going to throw this name out again. Late Rd pick, maybe 180 Colt Brennan.

How big is this Avery guy?

Sween, You too can be part of the industry. Just use your free MS web site and make up a mock draft. That's all it takes. No logic, no real research - just a list of teams and picks.

Maybe ESPN can have a new reality show - "You Can Be A Mock Draft Guru", hosted by Mel Kiper and Todd McShay

Zorn has already said QB (backup) is a position of need. They may use one of the later round picks.

IMO, this would be a wasted pick. Draft one next year in the middle rounds.

taf, you have to have nice hair like Kiper as a pre-requisite.

Here is another 7 rounder. Has the Skins taking a guard in round 1

Posted by: dpslotkin | March 19, 2008 04:38 PM

This one is a little more interesting, only in that its a little more transparent that the whole thing is based on a computer simulation that they SAY they update based on changes in team needs due to acquisitions in free agency. That said, they coded incorrectly for the Skins, saying that the absolute #1 priority for the Skins is ONLY defensive end. Maybe it busts the simulation to have more than one #1 coded, so they should use three #2s instead (for DE, CB, and OG). They also identified some positions that were absolutely filled (i.e., no drafting), which seemed off too b/c they listed FB as one of those positions (RB, QB, and SS were the others ... and SS is probably off given the depth problems there).

Also, Dorf, maybe I'm creepy, but I do like Cindy's new do. I'm also a huge fan of hers, so my regrets if its sounds too creepy.

Donnie Avery is a 5'11 midget who will probably go in round #2. Maybe Jordy Nelson is still around in round #3. He has the height, he has the hands, and he has the (c)hutzpah.

big fan of Lisa Baden. just sayin

Is Jordy Nelson related to the dude who pilots USS Enterprise?

sween.

Me. You. Knife-fight.

Winner gets Cindy's love and affection (in theory).

Didn't someone explain a while back that Jason's successful season with the WCO at Auburn mostly consisted of handing the ball to Cadillac Williams or Ronnie Brown, who were at that time the two best running backs in college football?

Doesn't mean he can't be successful, but probably does mean that experience isn't relevant either way.

Just sayin' is all.

PDiddy,

He is now Chief Engineer.

Didn't someone explain a while back that Jason's successful season with the WCO at Auburn mostly consisted of handing the ball to Cadillac Williams or Ronnie Brown, who were at that time the two best running backs in college football?

Doesn't mean he can't be successful, but probably does mean that experience isn't relevant either way.

Just sayin' is all.

Posted by: Redcoat | March 19, 2008 05:13 PM

I don't think he was drafted in the 1st round because he knew how to hand the ball off well. I think it had more to do with his quarterbacking performance during his senior season, where he ran the west coast O. Clinton Portis and Ladell Betts are no slouches, either.

Dorf, you can keep your theoretical affection ... I'm a lover, not a fighter (he says before Dorf walks away and sween cracks a bottle on the back of Dorf's head ...).

What I don't understand about this new Zorn offense is Cooley's bit about starting out on a route and then having the liberty to find an open spot on the field. Is that just the tight end position or all the receivers? I thought Hasselbeck unloaded after a three step drop. Doesn't seem like there's that much time for (1) the receiver to "get open" and (2) the QB to find the open guy.

Maybe the 14 systems in 12 years will help Campbell pick this offense up rather quickly. I do see a ton of INT's this season for him though. He might throw 20 this season...

hasslebeck took more 5 step drops than anything. still, setting JC up for a ton of picks this year.

RC - We have Portis and Betts. 'Nuff said if we use them right.......

1. JC is the QB for the foreseeable future

2. I don't believe there is a prototypical TYPE of WC QB. You can either make the throws or you can't and JC absolutely can.

3. JZ has already said he wants JC to have more freedom to move both in the pocket and out of it. I believe the problem last year was Saunders system. The QB throws to a spot the receiver is supposed to be there. On slow developing plays that means the QB stays in the pocket until it's time to throw it to that spot. When you have three fifths of your starting offensive line on the sideline the ball gets stripped or your QB gets creamed. See all QB's that used Saunders system :

Warner - crushed so many times he now has terminal happy feet

Green - career likely finished multiple consussions

Collins - looked like a world beater until Seattle's D line exploited the Skins' makeshift OL and Collins became ordinary.

QB's and receivers know when they get to the line what the coverage will be and where the "soft' spots are likely to be based on the position of the secondary and how they will likely react to the play called. In Saunders system you had no such freedom, you had to be where you were supposed to be.

Dorf, dcsween,

Save the testosterone, boys. I appreciate your interest, but I'm over here at talent_evaluator's right now. I'll let you know if I leave.

--Cindy Boren

This is a TRUE story. I was there. Freshman year college football.

Practice was washed out. Coach decides it's a good time to have a little chalk talk, improve the leaky pass defense. Coach is no genius.

He has X's and O's and arrows and squiggles all over the blackboard, and he's explained his little heart out on how THESE changes will stop the sieve of a defense.

Okay, guys, any questions?

A DB raises his hand.

"Coach, when the right end is split outside the flanker, there's no one back there to cover him," he says.

The coach turns around, looks at the board for five minutes, starts to make a correction, stops, stares for a few minutes more and, finally, shrugs and says the words that pretty much summed up our team's pass defense philosophy for that year.

"Well, you can't cover them all."

Hope the new stuff goes better at Redskin Park.

Half the time our receivers were on the ground writhing in pain because some groin, hamstring or orthopedic related injury.

Not a lot of freedom in that scenario either.

Half the time our receivers were on the ground writhing in pain because some groin, hamstring or orthopedic related injury.

Not a lot of freedom in that scenario either.

Posted by: Dorf | March 19, 2008 05:53 PM

LMAO - Yeah it's tough to catch a pass while grabbing your hammy

The announcement of the NFL schedule in its entirety is a moving target. ... However, the opener and the first Monday night game(s) usually are announced at the owners' meetings, which begin March 30. So expect a little something that week. The rest will probably come out later that week or early the following week.

What is this I hear about the new uniforms being Black and Maroon? Where can I find this information?

And with the 3 most pressing places on our team being DE, CB, and WR in order does anyone think they will draft?

Im personally hoping for either CB or DE. Big receivers now a days are a dime a dozen.

Let me know what everyone thinks

I just went back and read all these posts. I may need a bodyguard! ... Just kidding. I know you guys are having fun.

And ... thanks Dorf!

TheCindy,

I thought you either broke the blog or scared the bloggers off. [I think dcsween is still trying to break that bottle :-)]

Here is a link to a site that says the Rdskins are going to get the highest compensatory pick of all for losing Derrick Dockery to free-agency:

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=208336

This guy seems to have really done his homework. He thinks the Skins will also get a 7th round pick for losing Warrick Holdman.

Something to chew on. All receivers drafted in the first 2 rounds since 2000. I omitted top 5 overall picks because there are no top 5 WR talents in this draft (this washes studs like Larry Fitzgerald and Calvin Johnson, but also busts such as Charles Rogers and Peter Warrick). I'm trying to mirror our draft prospects as much as possible. This is why I'm apprehensive of drafting a receiver with one of our first 2 picks.

Round/Pick/Player/Team

2007

1/ 9/ Ted Ginn Jr./ Miami
1/ 23/ Dwayne Bowe/ Kansas City
1/ 27/ Robert Meachem/ Titans
1/ 30/ Craig Davis/ San Diego
1/ 32/ Anthony Gonzalez/ Indy
2/ 44/ Sidney Rice/ Minnesota
2/ 45/ Dwayne Jarrett/ Carolina
2/ 51/ Steve Smith/ New York

2006

1/ 25/ Santonio Holmes/ Pittsburgh
2/ 36/ Chad Jackson/ New England
2/ 44/ Sinorice Moss/ NYG
2/ 52/ Greg Jennings/ Green Bay

2005

1/ 7/ Troy Williamson/ Minnesota
1/ 10/ Mike Williams/ Detroit
1/ 21/ Matt Jones/ Jacksonville
1/ 22/ Mark Clayton/ Baltimore
1/ 27/ Roddy White/ Atlanta
2/ 35/ Reggie Brown/ Philly
2/ 39/ Mark Bradley/ Chicago Bears
2/ 55/ Roscoe Parrish/ Buffalo
2/ 58/ Terrence Murphy/ Green Bay
2/ 61/ Vincent Jackson/ San Diego

2004

1/ 7/ Roy Williams/ Detroit
1/ 9/ Reggie Williams/ Jaguars
1/ 13/ Lee Evans/ Buffalo
1/ 15/ Michael Clayton/ Tampa Bay
1/ 29/ Michael Jenkins/ Atlanta
1/ 31/ Rashaun Woods/ 49ers
2/ 50/ Devery Henderson/ Saints
2/ 54/ Darius Watts/Denver
2/ 62/ Keary Colbert/ Carolina

2003

1/ 17/ Bryant Johnson/ Arizona
2/ 44/ Taylor Jacobs/ Washington
2/ 45/ Bethel Johnson/ New England
2/ 54/ Anquan Boldin/ Arizona
2/ 60/ Tyrone Calico/ Tennessee

2002

1/ 13/ Donte' Stallworth/ Saints
1/ 19/ Ashley Lelie/ Denver
1/ 20/ Javon Walker/ Green Bay
2/ 33/ Jabar Gaffney/ Houston
2/ 36/ Josh Reed/ Buffalo Bills
2/ 46/ Tim Carter/ New York Giants
2/ 47/ Andre Davis/ Cleveland
2/ 48/ Reche Caldwell/ San Diego
2/ 62/ Antwaan Randle El/ Steelers
2/ 63/ Antonio Bryant/ Dallas
2/ 65/ Deion Branch/ New England

2001

1/ 8/ David Terrell/ Chicago
1/ 9/ Koren Robinson/ Seattle
1/ 15/ Rod Gardner/ Washington
1/ 16/ Santana Moss/ New York Jets
1/ 25/ Freddie Mitchell/ Philly
1/ 30/ Reggie Wayne/ Indianapolis
2/ 33/ Quincy Morgan/ Cleveland
2/ 36/ Chad Johnson/ Cincinnati
2/ 41/ Robert Ferguson/ Green Bay
2/ 52/ Chris Chambers/ Miami

2000

1/ 8/ Plaxico Burress/ Pittsburgh
1/ 10/ Travis Taylor/ Baltimore
1/ 21/ Sylvester Morris/ Chiefs
1/ 29/ R.Jay Soward/ Jaguars
2/ 32/ Dennis Northcutt/ Cleveland
2/ 36/ Todd Pinkston/ Philly
2/ 47/ Jerry Porter/ Oakland

Evaluating this list, I attempted to try and determine who was "worthy" of their draft position. Subjectively, I asked "would the team draft this player with this pick if they could do it all over again?"

Of the 55 players (excluding the 2007 class - insufficient time to judge), I came up with 14 players that lived up to their draft position. This list includes:

2006 - Santonio Holmes, Greg Jennings
2005 - Roddy White, Vincent Jackson
2004 - Roy Williams, Lee Evans
2003 - Anquan Boldin
2002 - Antwaan Randle El, Deion Branch
2001 - Santana Moss, Reggie Wayne, Chad Johnson, Chris Chambers
2000 - Plaxico Burress

Two additional players I had as toss-ups for definite talent and flashes of production, just too many inconsistencies: Javon Walker, Jerry Porter.

14 out of 55 players doesn't sound like very good odds to me. Maybe someone can change my mind. Feel free to criticize me as much as possible.

Maybe attempting to strike a deal for someone like Chad Johnson isn't such a bad idea after all.

I am gonna say I am beginning to like the new administration in town. No big hype FA's. No smack about how great things are gonna be. Just a decent guy willing to put his ego aside and do what is best for the team.

Who knows? This may not be a great season but at least Zorn seems like he will work to find out how his players fit best into his system and then put them in a position to excel.

I like that.

14 out of 55 players doesn't sound like very good odds to me. Maybe someone can change my mind. Feel free to criticize me as much as possible.

Posted by: psps23 | March 19, 2008 07:19 PM

psps--

I can't criticize anyone who's put in this much effort. 14 of 55 is about 25%, but before we say it's high or low, we need to know about the other positions. What are the percentages of QB's, RB's, DE's, etc. that live up to their draft position? QB seems to be especially problematic and their odds might be lower. But there has to be a "safest" and a "riskiest" and the only way to know is to go through all of them.

I just went back and read all these posts. I may need a bodyguard!

Posted by: TheCindy | March 19, 2008 06:14 PM

Cindy--

Bodyguard? I'll be right over.

Sadly, I'm not sure you can apply a regression analysis to t_e's technique. If you could, you would get Blogger of the Year award. It's an aluminum foil covered paper cup with previous Blogger of the Year recipients written on it with a Sharpie. Past winners include Barno (for the infamous "Heavy Metal Parking Lot" victory) and Barno1 (for the infamous "Heavy Metal Parking Lot" revenge plot).

Cripes! I just uttered his name...will this awaken the sleeping giant, or do we have 4 months of hibernation to go?

I don't care how long Zorn's playbook is, I just hope he used a box of Crayola with a built-in sharpener.

Bodyguard as in Kevin Costner or Clint Eastwood?

BTW, I'd like everyone out there in RI land to know that I am not simply some effete fashionista who enjoys an occasional glass of champagne with his tequila.

Today I installed my very first ceiling light.

I'm sitting on the couch with my fire extinguisher just in case.

Right, diddy, and what are you watching on TV as you sit on your couch with your "fire extinguisher." Jeez, you west coasties are too much.

Cripes! I just uttered his name...will this awaken the sleeping giant, or do we have 4 months of hibernation to go?

Posted by: PDiddy | March 19, 2008 08:12 PM

Just don't say it again. Three times is the unlucky #.

I am watching the Lifetime network. It's the movie where the battered wife gets revenge on her husband.

L
M
A
O

Score 1 for Diddy!

Cindy, I don't stalk you... just admire from afar.
Posted by: Dorf | March 19, 2008 04:44 PM

Dorf, 51 yards isn't "afar"... more like "barely outside of the perimeter of the injunction".

Nate,

Yep. I'm just trying to figure out some way to undo all thats been done. Since, Vinny and Danny did most of it, I don't see it undoing.

As for the go-for-broke...it is the only way to fly. Only 1 team makes the Super Bowl, let's at least have fun trying to get there!

Visit my sports website. I have done picks 1-10 in my mock draft series. Its easy to sign up. Post on the forums. And its FREE.

http://sportsclass.spruz.com/main.asp

Also check out my NEW redskins blog

http://redskins101.blogspot.com/

Visit my sports website. I have done picks 1-10 in my mock draft series. Its easy to sign up. Post on the forums. And its FREE.

http://sportsclass.spruz.com/main.asp

Also check out my NEW redskins blog

http://redskins101.blogspot.com/

Visit my sports website. I have done picks 1-10 in my mock draft series. Its easy to sign up. Post on the forums. And its FREE.

http://sportsclass.spruz.com/main.asp

Also check out my NEW redskins blog

http://redskins101.blogspot.com/

Only 1 team makes the Super Bowl, let's at least have fun trying to get there!

Posted by: Sports_Guru | March 19, 2008 09:17 PM

They've changed it. From now on, two teams make the Super Bowl. No one wanted to watch it when only one team made it.

Sorry I did not mean to put 3 posts

LOL

I don't know who on the post blogs gets corrected more Sports_Guru or Poopey McPoop.

I don't know who on the post blogs gets corrected more Sports_Guru or Poopey McPoop.

Posted by: alex35332 | March 19, 2008 10:14 PM

As a percentage of total posts, I'd guess sportsclass100 is batting pretty close to 100%...
I'm sure that tomorrow, when he gets home from school, he can get that average down to a reasonable number.

Good grief, t_e, I busted a gut on that Super Bowl line up above. Great, great work.

anyone miss me?

cL, of COURSE we missed you. Why, I was pining for you earlier today. Look it up.

Oz Oranje!!!!!

You cold hearted bastard

Fookin Robbie Keane

Haha You're still in front of me though. I feel dirty for getting so many points from Ronaldo.

Beating my sorry a22 is the new green. Fun while it lasted!

I'm in MoFo's! The MV Dame bracket is complete. Prepare to umm, like kick my a**, or such as...

I'm sure even Diddy's velociraptor makes better picks than I do...

Of all the dirty, bed-bug ridden brackets in this town, she had to walk into mine.

SMACK, who do you have winning yours? The Cowpokes?

Three minute delay for a post to actually post. Wow. Good thing we're not going for some kind of Boren Ultimatum under these conditions. We'd never make it!

Hey MV, getting settled?

Remember when TK used to do those columns with hilarious groupings of obscure nicknames of possible final four combos. Troubadors, Conquistadors, Commodores, Platters, that sort of thing. Man I used to read those columns on the metro, in complete awe.

Now I read Norman Chad while driving.

UCLA?

Good gravy, we've got 32 people in the RI tourney pool! That's awesome.

(Having second thoughts on sending American U to the Final Four in my bracket... hmm...)

Man, TK used to be such a doggone funny writer. Did he even do a joke bracket with little throwaway lines on some of the teams, as he has in years past?

Don't get me wrong, I do love Couch Slouch. But TK was something altogether different.

Yeah Nate, he did the comments bracket...or possibly someone did it for him. No chance his penmanship is that legible.

As far as Tony goes, I say F it, let's clone him!

Yeah, Cindy probably did it, to cover for the old crotchety galoot. She's been carrying him for years. Well, her and Andy Pollin.

IS Andy Pollin really Abe Pollin's nephew?

I don't think they are father and son, but maybe they are distant relations. It does seem to be too big a coincidence that the head honcho of a sports talk radio station shares an uncommon surname with the longest-tenured owner of one of the local sports teams, but stranger things have happened.

http://www.nba.com/wizards/news/Abe_Pollin_Bio-44212-56.html

Somebody up here will know the answer for sure on whether they are related at all, I bet.

Er, maybe you could ask on the Wizards blog and get a quicker and more solid answer. Ya never know.

Good article on draft issues.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d80747a1e&template=with-video&confirm=true&campaign=ec0005

Only for real draft nerds - Pro Day workout updates:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d806b4a39&template=with-video&confirm=true&campaign=ec0005

The Rooster writes about NFL off-season conditioning:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/ross_tucker/03/18/offseason.programs/index.html

Never thought I'd see the day that someone would lament losing out on Matt Turk, especially 39-year-old Matt Turk, but I guess that's what it's like to be a Cardinals fan.

http://sfo.scout.com/a.z?s=69&p=2&c=739023

Repeat to self: we're not the Cardinals of the East. We're not the Cardinals of the East...

A lot of groupie love for Cindy on the blog yesterday...sorry I missed it. She is kinda cute.

Now if we can get an idea of how Lisa_R looks...

As long as Lisa is up here being feisty and hanging with the guys, I don't care what she looks like. ;)

Ok... so tip off is during 3rd period. I'm co-teaching in another class so my room with be void of crumb-snatchers and nose-pickers. I have planning after 12:45. I think I will be watching a lot of games today!

Hail.

I am watching the Lifetime network. It's the movie where the battered wife gets revenge on her husband.

Posted by: PDiddy | March 19, 2008 08:29 PM

Is that also the movie where the husband is a drunk and sleeps around on his wife??

I am watching the Lifetime network. It's the movie where the battered wife gets revenge on her husband.

Posted by: PDiddy | March 19, 2008 08:29 PM

Is that also the movie where the husband is a drunk and sleeps around on his wife??

Posted by: jimwell | March 20, 2008 08:26 AM

I think it was the other one -- the one where he's an introverted, deranged stamp collector who lost his job at McDonald's for back-talk to his manager.

Life/work been kickin my azz lately peeps, I apologize for my neglect.....

Quick hits

- love the quiet off season

- I love the draft as any red blooded NFL schlub, but you freaks are off the hook...keep dropping knowledge...this time last year I though you all Laron worshipers were idiots...and well..look how that worked out! RI is my mel kiper...!

- The trade JC crowd are straight foolz on almost every level. Please just shut up.....you sound like an extra from "Idiocracy"

- Go Caps!

The Caps should be playing on the Lifetime Network, what with the way they were abused in the Blackhawks' domicile last night. Five zippy, four in the first. Painful.

I agree that we should NOT be trading Jason Campbell. He should turn into a great QB.
Sorry to single you out SETH.LEMASTER, but you state "JC is the exact opposite of the kind of player you want to run a WCO. Todd Collins is the ideal WCO QB. we would be best suited to start collins this year and draft a second-tier QB to groom to be our future WCO QB."
I am curious. What makes JC bad for the WCO, and Collins good, besides your opinion? From what I see, Todd Collins looked good because he knew Saunders' system so well. Other than that he's a backup. Is there some sort of checklist of characteristics that a QB needs to be a good fit? I looked on the internet and couldn't find one. What I did find was an article by Steve Young explaining some of the intricasies of the WCO (might be a couple years old, not sure). Check it out.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/s/westcoast/popularity.html
Some of the points:
- Footwork and timing (with receivers) are they keys
- Although the West Coast offense has three- and five-step drops as its meat and potatoes, the offense becomes even more explosive when the quarterback can get more protection, drop seven steps and time his footwork with the receivers' routes. Then the quarterback can attack 20-25 yards downfield with timing.
- In Andy Reid's West Coast system, Donovan (Mcnabb) has found that he is getting rid of the ball quicker, he has a higher completion percentage, the Eagles' offense is scoring more touchdowns, and he can still run the ball every once in a while. That is when the offense gets good -- having a mobile quarterback with West Coast footwork
- It's more difficult for a veteran quarterback to learn it; If quarterbacks learned the West Coast offense in college, oh man -- it would make a huge difference. Talk about a feeding frenzy for a quarterback.
- The best West Coast coaching job I've seen was when Mike Shanahan left the 49ers, became the head coach in Denver and made it available to John Elway. Shanahan put in the shotgun (something we never did), figured out plays John could feel comfortable with, and amended the offense for an older quarterback who needed to learn it quickly. He told John, "Trust me -- I'll try to make it amenable to you, but trust me." ********Sort of sounds like Zorn talking to Cambell, don't it?
I for one am encouraged that JC will be able to pick up the offense; may take time, but I can foresee good things to come. Supposedly JC is smart, dedicated, and obviously has all the tools. Barring injury, we have our franchise QB in house.......

Is this on?

Good stuff dlh but please don't feed these people to get started on that again. I've seen SL try to sell that trade Campbell and start Collins multiple times and it gets more nauseating every time.

Not to be a dik on the start of one of the best sports weekends of the year, but was just reading on nfl.com about Univ of Texas pro day yesterday. Isn't this something our insiders should be reporting on. We're looking at WR's and Sweed was there. Not an endorsement to draft him but it said all 32 teams were represented. Would be nice to hear about it.

Re-post from up above. Maybe this can generate some discussion. Warning - it's lengthy:

Something to chew on. All receivers drafted in the first 2 rounds since 2000. I omitted top 5 overall picks because there are no top 5 WR talents in this draft (this washes studs like Larry Fitzgerald and Calvin Johnson, but also busts such as Charles Rogers and Peter Warrick). I'm trying to mirror our draft prospects as much as possible. This is why I'm apprehensive of drafting a receiver with one of our first 2 picks.

Round/Pick/Player/Team

2007

1/ 9/ Ted Ginn Jr./ Miami
1/ 23/ Dwayne Bowe/ Kansas City
1/ 27/ Robert Meachem/ Titans
1/ 30/ Craig Davis/ San Diego
1/ 32/ Anthony Gonzalez/ Indy
2/ 44/ Sidney Rice/ Minnesota
2/ 45/ Dwayne Jarrett/ Carolina
2/ 51/ Steve Smith/ New York

2006

1/ 25/ Santonio Holmes/ Pittsburgh
2/ 36/ Chad Jackson/ New England
2/ 44/ Sinorice Moss/ NYG
2/ 52/ Greg Jennings/ Green Bay

2005

1/ 7/ Troy Williamson/ Minnesota
1/ 10/ Mike Williams/ Detroit
1/ 21/ Matt Jones/ Jacksonville
1/ 22/ Mark Clayton/ Baltimore
1/ 27/ Roddy White/ Atlanta
2/ 35/ Reggie Brown/ Philly
2/ 39/ Mark Bradley/ Chicago Bears
2/ 55/ Roscoe Parrish/ Buffalo
2/ 58/ Terrence Murphy/ Green Bay
2/ 61/ Vincent Jackson/ San Diego

2004

1/ 7/ Roy Williams/ Detroit
1/ 9/ Reggie Williams/ Jaguars
1/ 13/ Lee Evans/ Buffalo
1/ 15/ Michael Clayton/ Tampa Bay
1/ 29/ Michael Jenkins/ Atlanta
1/ 31/ Rashaun Woods/ 49ers
2/ 50/ Devery Henderson/ Saints
2/ 54/ Darius Watts/Denver
2/ 62/ Keary Colbert/ Carolina

2003

1/ 17/ Bryant Johnson/ Arizona
2/ 44/ Taylor Jacobs/ Washington
2/ 45/ Bethel Johnson/ New England
2/ 54/ Anquan Boldin/ Arizona
2/ 60/ Tyrone Calico/ Tennessee

2002

1/ 13/ Donte' Stallworth/ Saints
1/ 19/ Ashley Lelie/ Denver
1/ 20/ Javon Walker/ Green Bay
2/ 33/ Jabar Gaffney/ Houston
2/ 36/ Josh Reed/ Buffalo Bills
2/ 46/ Tim Carter/ New York Giants
2/ 47/ Andre Davis/ Cleveland
2/ 48/ Reche Caldwell/ San Diego
2/ 62/ Antwaan Randle El/ Steelers
2/ 63/ Antonio Bryant/ Dallas
2/ 65/ Deion Branch/ New England

2001

1/ 8/ David Terrell/ Chicago
1/ 9/ Koren Robinson/ Seattle
1/ 15/ Rod Gardner/ Washington
1/ 16/ Santana Moss/ New York Jets
1/ 25/ Freddie Mitchell/ Philly
1/ 30/ Reggie Wayne/ Indianapolis
2/ 33/ Quincy Morgan/ Cleveland
2/ 36/ Chad Johnson/ Cincinnati
2/ 41/ Robert Ferguson/ Green Bay
2/ 52/ Chris Chambers/ Miami

2000

1/ 8/ Plaxico Burress/ Pittsburgh
1/ 10/ Travis Taylor/ Baltimore
1/ 21/ Sylvester Morris/ Chiefs
1/ 29/ R.Jay Soward/ Jaguars
2/ 32/ Dennis Northcutt/ Cleveland
2/ 36/ Todd Pinkston/ Philly
2/ 47/ Jerry Porter/ Oakland

Evaluating this list, I attempted to try and determine who was "worthy" of their draft position. Subjectively, I asked "would the team draft this player with this pick if they could do it all over again?"

Of the 55 players (excluding the 2007 class - insufficient time to judge), I came up with 14 players that lived up to their draft position. This list includes:

2006 - Santonio Holmes, Greg Jennings
2005 - Roddy White, Vincent Jackson
2004 - Roy Williams, Lee Evans
2003 - Anquan Boldin
2002 - Antwaan Randle El, Deion Branch
2001 - Santana Moss, Reggie Wayne, Chad Johnson, Chris Chambers
2000 - Plaxico Burress

Two additional players I had as toss-ups for definite talent and flashes of production, just too many inconsistencies: Javon Walker, Jerry Porter.

14 out of 55 players doesn't sound like very good odds to me. Maybe someone can change my mind. Feel free to criticize me as much as possible.

Maybe attempting to strike a deal for someone like Chad Johnson isn't such a bad idea after all, for the right price.

Posted by: psps23 | March 19, 2008 07:19 PM

The Caps have, what, seven games to squeak into the playoffs? Thank goodness their conference is so crummy, so the bar is a little lower (we could say that about the conferences the Skins and Wiz play in, too).

I for one hope the playbook takes the shape of a prolate spheroid. That would be hilarious. Like, you know, art imitating life. Or would that be form over function. Or something.

dlhaze1,

that writeup by steve young is one of the things other writers have referenced as to why JC is a bad WCO QB. his footwork is horrible. he holds on to the ball too long. and most importantly, a WCO QB has to be terribly accurate with short and medium range passes. JC is unusual in that he is very erratic on the short range, but often insanely accurate on the long bombs. this, plus JCs tendancy to holding on to the ball makes him ideal for a coryell offense.

I was kind of hoping for a torus.

Mmmmmmmmmm ... chocolate frosted tooooooooorus. gkklllllkkkkahh.

Check out this write-up. I don't know how to post links, but i will cut and paste the text to the URL and the article itself.

http://mvn.com/nfl-redskins/2008/03/16/is-jason-campbell-a-good-fit-for-the-west-coast-offense/print/

Is Jason Campbell a good fit for the West Coast Offense?

Posted By Brian Mulholland On March 16, 2008 @ 11:43 am In Jim Zorn, Todd Collins, Washington Redskins Offense, Jason Campbell, The Redskins | 9 Comments

The Coryell offense has been a staple here in the nation's capital. 22 of the past 26 years have featured a Washington Redskins offense called by a coach off of the Coryell coaching tree, be it Al Saunders, Joe Gibbs or Norv Turner. The team's records in those 4 other years were 4-12, 8-8, 7-9, and 5-11.

The team's move over to the West Coast offense and the Bill Walsh coaching tree feels a little like it is abandoning its identity.The scariest part of entering this brave new world is what it means for quarterback Jason Campbell. A quality quarterback makes just about everything else on a team easier. While the offensive and/or defensive lines may be more important as entire units, no single player impacts a team's success like a quarterback. The Redskins have flirted a few times with quality quarterbacks, but the club has been unsuccessfully searching for someone to fill the role on a permanent basis for decades. Their inability to fill this hole has been one of the central failings of the 90s and 00s.

Jason Campbell has shown flashes that he just might be the man to end that search.Campbell, however, was drafted to play in a Gibbs-esque power offense that max protects, runs alot, and throws predominantly downfield off play-action. The attributes Joe Gibbs always sought in his quarterbacks were toughness, size, arm strength, and intelligence. Jason fits that description fairly well, and likely would have done well in such an offense.

The West Coast offense puts emphasis on accuracy, timing, anticipation, quick release, and mobility. Jason fits this description less well. He does have mobility, and his intelligence implies that with time he might be able to acquire the other attributes, but as of today, it seems like a poor fit.At Joe Gibbs' second retirement press conference, Dan Snyder spoke of the premium the team was going to place on continuity. Many fans took this as a wink and a nod confirmation that Gregg Williams would become head coach, and perhaps more importantly, that Jason Campbell would work in the same system for the third consecutive year under Al Saunders. Snyder could not say so explicitly of course because of the Rooney Rule which requires teams to at least interview a minority candidate during any coaching change. It is a well-meaning rule that has surpassed any reasonable expectations for its success, but which means that teams with obvious successors sometimes have to pretend they are going through a process when their minds are already made up. This seemed to be the case with the Washington Redskins.

Turns out that wasn't what he meant at all. Snyder apparently meant continuity in player personnel more so than coaches or schemes based on the fact that he made a move with the offense that was the least continuity oriented of any move they could have made short of bringing June Jones back to the NFL. So does the Zorn era spell doom for Jason Campbell? Have the Washington Redskins sabotaged yet another potential solution to their QB problem as they so recently seemed to with Patrick Ramsey, or can Jason make the transition and possibly even become a better player because of it? There are plenty of reasons to be pessimistic, but also quite a few reasons to feel optimistic. Let's review some.

Pessimism

1) Jason is inaccurate. Jason dramatically improved his completion percentage from 53.1% in 2006 to 60% in 2007. In the old days, 60% was quite good. Today 60% is merely adequate. 65% or more is what a difference-maker will complete. But accuracy is not just about catches and incompletions, and is not what is most worrisome here. This statistic has as much to do with receiver drops, reading defenses, and other issues. No, the complaint here is about simply putting the ball on target.

Far to many of Jason's passes, especially on short and medium passes force the receiver to make dramatic adjustments to the ball. This turns what should be routine catch & run completions into difficult acrobatic receptions with little to no RAC (Run After Catch) yards. Jason flashes insane accuracy on some difficult passes, such as some of the intermediate and deep fades he threw in 2007 wherein the pass was dropped perfectly onto the outside shoulder of the receiver and was thrown early, well before the safety could get over to help. However, Jason has yet to show the ability to consistently place the ball right in the receivers frame without forcing him to break stride. The WCO demands this of its quarterbacks.

2) Jason has a slow delivery. This is another area that Jason showed major improvement in from 2006 to 2007, but more progress needs to be made. Jason is a long-armed QB, and this problem seems common to many similarly built QBs. Jason has a tendency to take the ball DOWN as he cocks his arm back at the start of his throwing motion, and arguably cocks his arm to far back. This is a very natural feeling motion, creating a windmill windup that feels like it is helping the power of the throw.

In fact, the extra motion exposes the ball to backside rushers resulting in strips. Jason was tied for 2nd for the most fumbles with Eli Manning in 2007 with 13. Only Jon Kitna with 16 had more. With only 13 starts, Jason started the 2nd fewest games of any QB with double digit fumbles (Josh McCown of OAK being the fewest). This is despite having the 12th lowest sack percentage. Those statistics certainly don't prove causation, and the sack percentage is a mediocre stat for measuring pressure, but I think it does paint the picture that Jason fumbled more often than average when contacted, and there is reason to believe his windup throwing motion was a major contributing factor.

The extra motion also slows the ball's delivery. While Jason's ample arm strength can make up for this delay on longer passes, a slower delivery gives the defenders an extra moment to react, reducing yards after catch and possibly allowing them to contest the reception.

It is also likely that the extra motion is impairing his accuracy. The more exaggerated a movement is, the more natural variation is going to creep in. Any golfer can can attest that a few centimeters or degrees in a swing can change the trajectory of the ball by yards, and the principle is the same (though less dramatic) in a passing motion.

3) Jason does not make quick decisions or anticipate receivers coming uncovered as well as a West Coast QB will need. Watching the difference in playing style between Todd Collins and Jason, one can draw a pretty safe comparison and see that Jason was tending to drop back and watch for open receivers, while Todd Collins was dropping back, analyzing the defense and making his decision before the receiver uncovered.

He knew from the responsibilities, or how the coverage was shaded one way or another who was going to come open and when. He could throw the ball so that when the receiver turned to find the football it was already halfway there. Close enough that the defense had not had time to close the separation yet. The results are uncontested catches and great run after catch opportunities. Jason has flashed this a few times on some short out routes and slants, but has not done it with consistency.

4) Jason has a million voices in his head. Jason Campbell is about to learn from the 7th different offensive coordinator in the last 8 years. This is far from the ideal formula for developing a young quarterback. It means Campbell has almost certainly spent much time each year learning a particular nuance or way of doing things, and before he could master it, was yanked in a different direction and told the opposite.

It means most of Campbell's time on the field is spent remembering which receivers are going where rather than concentrating on the nuances of what the defense is doing and knowing, almost as part of his muscle memory, what to do with the football the instant he diagnoses what the defense is doing. Instead Jason almost certainly has to think and remember on the field things that he should do by instinct because he has done them a million times in practice and games before.

5) How long is Jason's leash? Right now, I think it is safe to say that most Redskin fans were impressed by Campbell in 2007. Even the notoriously pessimistic Steve Czaban of SportsTalk 980 speaks well of Campbell on his radio shows. He flashed serious ability before his injury, and though he lost some games with late interceptions, most fans recognize that young QBs do these sorts of things.

Should Jason struggle in 2008 with the new offense and playing style, how long will fans remain patient? It seems likely that most Redskin fans will be patient, but Jason has the misfortune of having been significantly outplayed by Todd Collins last year. With a veteran who fans will suspect can get it done, how long will they wait for a youngster who is not getting it done, even when a quality excuse exists?

This is not merely academic. Should the fans start turning, and the loss column grow, how long before the locker room begins whispering and wondering how much better they would be with Collins starting. Jason has only started 20 games so far despite being about to enter his 4th year in the league. 4th year QBs are expected to start producing consistently. Campbell may not be ready to do that.

Optimism

1) Most of Jason's flaws are fixable through hard work and experience. The anticipation, delivery, accuracy, and learning of the offense are partly going to come with experience, and good coaching, but they are also going to come from hard work and repetition on Jason's part. Last year, Al Saunders, Joe Gibbs, and pretty much everyone associated with the team singled Jason out for working his tail off during the offseason to improve. Already this offseason Bram Weinstein and Larry Michaels have mentioned how often Jason has been at and around Redskins Park either working out and rehabbing or meeting with coach Zorn. It appears that Jason understands that a key element to being a high caliber QB in the NFL will be out-working the competition in the offseason. Jim Zorn may be an ideal teacher during this process as well.

2) Jason actually has a head start on the offense for two reasons. First, Jason's senior year at Auburn was run under a West Coast system. It also happened to be far and away Jason's best year at Auburn. Certainly an NFL level version of the offense is going to be more intricate and more demanding, but it is an important jump start on the terminology and other changes that are coming, and the fact that he thrived in it implies that he may be a better fit that the abstract archetypes imply.

Also, Al Saunders offense, while typically referred to as coming from the Coryell tree, is almost a hybrid of the Coryell and West Coast. Saunders places a similar emphasis on rhythm and accuracy based passing, and anticipation as Zorn will. While Campbell never excelled in these areas, he has at least been drilled and preached to about them for two years. It is a less abrupt transition than going from Gibbs' version of the Coryell all the way to a West Coast philosophy would have been. Indeed Todd Collins will probably do as much to teach Campbell as Zorn would have since Zorn will likely be busy with head coaching duties much of the time.

3) Jason has flashed some significant features of an up and coming QB. Jason showed remarkable progress from 2006 to 2007. Jason carried the sluggish Redskin offense through several early season contests while the running game struggled. He flashed the ability to rally the team late in the game to put them in position to win, even though he went on to lose a few on his own mistakes. He has shown the ability, especially in 2006 when he didn't even know the offense, to improvise when the design of the play breaks down. He has flashed the pocket presence to know when to step up in order to help his tackles run speed rushers past him harmlessly, though he actually seemed to regress a bit in this area in 2007.

Optimism vs Pessimism

So should Redskins fans feel optimistic for having a young QB who might finally end the carousel at the sports' most important position, or pessimism for the front office having pulled the rug out from under his development just as he was showing signs of coming on? We honestly won't know for some time yet. Perhaps not until 2009. Personally, I am leaning towards optimism. What about you?

psps--

I can't criticize anyone who's put in this much effort. 14 of 55 is about 25%, but before we say it's high or low, we need to know about the other positions. What are the percentages of QB's, RB's, DE's, etc. that live up to their draft position? QB seems to be especially problematic and their odds might be lower. But there has to be a "safest" and a "riskiest" and the only way to know is to go through all of them.

Posted by: talent_evaluator | March 19, 2008 08:05 PM

This is true. I would be interested in trying to determine the safest/riskiest early draft picks, specifically for our positions of need. Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now to go through that effort for DE's, O-lineman, CB's, etc. I could make this an ongoing project during my down time at work and bring it up sometime down the road. Yes, I am a geek.

ok... that was cool, i somehow magically gained the ability to post links! sweet!

Redcoat, you out there? You got that link to the Dolphins site with the debate about outside linebackers in the 3-4 vs. 4-3?

psps, there was an article on the nfl.com site last season about how safety is historically the safest pick in the first round. [Crickets has a link above that says there is a death of good safeties, guards, and tight ends in this draft.]

Ouch. Dearth.

Good article Seth. I will still go with optimism. Admittedly it is going to take some time, and my expectations are not TOO high for 2008. But I would not want to give up on him at this point. I think 2009 and beyond could be awesome with JC. If he can work out his mechanics, especially the fumbling, I think the smarts/reads will come on line. I just don't see anyone (at least anyone available for trade or draft) that could come in and do better.

dlhaze1,

i agree no one in the draft could do better THIS YEAR, but i think that an new,offensive minded HC is generally best served by drafting and grooming a QB ideal for the offense he plans to run, and letting him learn a couple years before starting.

I guess i don't lack faith in Jason Campbell as much as i HAVE faith in Todd Collins... I simply think Todd will pick up the offense quicker and play smarter football. Add to it that we could easily get the value of a first rounder for Jason, and my argument isnt so much as WHY we should trade jason campbell, as much as it is WHY NOT?

take a step back. remove personal attachments and tell me if you really beleive that this team is better off THIS YEAR with a young quarterback, having to learn his 7th offensive system in the past 8 years, who is not an ideal WCO QB? And if we arent better of this year, then what about next?

Todd still has 2 or 3 - maybe even 4 - GOOD years left in him. hes an older QB, but you have to remember he spent a decade sitting on the bench behind trent green. He's fresh. Knowing this team would be good with Collins at QB, and knowing any rookie hand-picked by Zorn would be ready to play by then - WHY NOT trade JC while we can get something for him?

We have a HUGE need for youth and depth accross most of our roster. Trading JC (combined with potentially trading out fo the 1st round) could easily yield us 7 picks in rounds two and 3 - where the real depth in this years draft is.

Bottom line (in my opinion, of course) I just dont think JC is as valuable to us as the 2 second round picks we could get for him from a team like Atlanta.

Yes, dearth. Some typos are worse than others.

I guess i don't lack faith in Jason Campbell as much as i HAVE faith in Todd Collins... I simply think Todd will pick up the offense quicker and play smarter football. Add to it that we could easily get the value of a first rounder for Jason, and my argument isnt so much as WHY we should trade jason campbell, as much as it is WHY NOT?

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 20, 2008 11:13 AM

I'll agree that Collins probably will pick up the offense faster, and probably will be a smarter quarterback. BUT, Collins will never be a quarterback that can carry a team. Not this year, not ever. He simply doesn't have the tools. He's an older version of Chad Pennington.

Jason Campbell, however, basically has no limits in terms of passing ability. Yes he struggles with accuracy issues, but that can be corrected through practice and repetition. I don't think it was a coincidence that his completion percentage jumped 7% in one offseason. Todd Collins, however, will never get a stronger arm. Simply put, there are throws he just cannot make.

Campbell has far too much upside to get rid of. Trading Campbell for a pick, then using a pick to bring in a younger quarterback would gain you nothing. Campbell already has a feel for the game, he's adjusted to the speed of the NFL, he's shown the intangibles needed to succeed (hard work, toughness, etc.), and he's proven that he can produce at this level. All he needs to do is adjust to the system.

Bringing in a new guy and you'd have to wait a couple years just for him to be at the point where Campbell's at now. It's counterproductive. You'd be holding back your franchise for a couple years just to see if this new guy COULD take the reigns. You'd set this team right back into re-building mode.

Whether you like it or not, Campbell is the best bet for this team's success, and he is the future of this franchise, for better or worse. Better get used to it.

SETH.LEMASTER you're making a lot of assumption and stating them as facts. You don't know for sure if Campbell is a good fit for the WCO in the pros because we haven't seen him in the offense as yet. Many said the same things about Portis being not a good fit for Gibb's offense but then he went on to produce a skins rushing record. If you trade Campbell who is the backup. What happens if Collins goes done? You don't quite on a player that has potential and has shown his potential in the past.

Another season, another complicated new playbook. It only makes sense to Danny and his a$$-kissing enabler Vinnie to get rid of Saunders and to demote the QB who had mastered Saunders' system, all for yet another complicated playbook. Way to go, jacka$$es!

...and he's proven that he can produce at this level.

Posted by: psps23 | March 20, 2008 11:30 AM

i should've put "albeit inconsistently" at the end of this sentence. But those inconsistencies are normal for a young, inexperienced QB.

"Bringing in a new guy and you'd have to wait a couple years just for him to be at the point where Campbell's at now. It's counterproductive. You'd be holding back your franchise for a couple years just to see if this new guy COULD take the reigns. You'd set this team right back into re-building mode. "
Posted by: psps23 | March 20, 2008 11:30 AM

-------------------------------------------

I'm not suggesting we trade Campbell for one pick, i'm suggesting we trade him for two. I'm also looking this from the perspective of Jason Campbell being Patrick Ramsey 2.0. When his value was high, the fins offered us their 1st for him and we balked. One year later, we couldnt wait to get rid of him and all we could get was a 6th. I would rather get the equivalent of 2 2nd rounders for Jason Campbell now than get next to nothing for him later. Todd Collins can get it done - atleast for a couple years. IMO, We set the franchise back by starting Jason Campbell when we could have Todd start, play better, and have his replacement and future skins franchise QB take over in a couple years. Also, A WCO QB does not need a strong arm, so i'm not worried about Todd there.

I guess it just depends on how much faith you want to place in Jason Campbell. He's a better QB than Patrick Ramsey, but my gut tells me he isnt the solution here - atleast not under Zorn. Also, i don't know why the article i quoted spoke of Campbells intelligence. I seem to remember he was one of the "dumbest" QBs, atleast based on the wonderlic test.

Add to it that we could easily get the value of a first rounder for Jason, and my argument isnt so much as WHY we should trade jason campbell, as much as it is WHY NOT?

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 20, 2008 11:13 AM

Who says we can get the value of a first-rounder for Campbell? The Raiders just fleeced the Falcons for DeAngelo Hall, who is quite possibly one of the best young cover corners in the NFL, for a 2nd and a 6th round pick. And Hall was drafted in the top 10! JC is a guy who the Redskins probably reached to get (most people had him going in the 2nd round in '05 if I recall correctly) and has limited playing experience with mixed results. The only way you get equal value for him is if you get multiple first-day draft choices (since the Skins essentially spent 4 draft choices to get him), and nobody is going to do that.

The other issue you run into is this: most of the teams in the NFL run some variation of the WC offense. So you have to locate one of the handful of teams that DON'T run the WC offense and hope they are willing to give up a few draft choices to get Campbell. HIGHLY unlikely...

And what's with all the sudden faith in Todd Collins? When the season started, I was in high school the last time he started a game! The only reason this guy set the world on fire last year (for only 4 games, I might add) was because he had studied that offense for almost a decade and nobody had any film on him (at least not in color). Hell, COLLINS probably didn't know his OWN tendencies, much less an opposing coach!

As far as I'm concerned, he's starting from scratch, just like Campbell. And while I have no doubt that he's less likely to throw the bad pick than Campbell, he's also less likely to make that sweet deep throw that goes the distance. We've got Campbell; it cost 4 draft picks to get him, the least we can do is drive him 'til the wheels come off.

Couple things:

1. I'm pretty sure the Redskins aren't trading Campbell. Can we put that one to bed?

2. Limas had his pro-day yesterday, and ran in the 4.5's, but looked good overall from what I've read, however Derrick Harvey had a workout as well, and from what was written he was very impressive, so much that the Jets at #6 are interested.

Thats all I've got.

Seth,

Lets end this discussion they are not trading JC, you have never been a coach in the NFL or College, you have no idea if JC will be able to run the WCO. You are stating an opinion as a fact, Zorn knows if JC will be able to run his offense, and if he thought he could not then I am sure they would do something. You would get know more then a 3rd rounder for JC and that is a big maybe.

Apparently Buges monopolized Branden Albert at his pro day:

http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2008/032008/03192008/364411

I guess it just depends on how much faith you want to place in Jason Campbell. He's a better QB than Patrick Ramsey, but my gut tells me he isnt the solution here - atleast not under Zorn.

Posted by: SETH.LEMASTER | March 20, 2008 11:44 AM

Admittedly, I do have a lot of faith in him. I think he can be very, very good.

I think your stance depends on how you define "the solution." Do I think he'll be the next Montana in this system? No. But do I think he can be the next Hasselbeck? Absolutely.

And to the point about arm-strength in the WCO; every quarterback needs to have some level of arm strength. Collins looked lovely when everything was going his way, but when push came to shove and he had to make plays down the stretch of the seattle game, he couldn't do it. His arm-strength wouldn't allow him to fit passes into tighter spaces, and allowed the defense to jump routes. He's fine as a game-manager, but as a difference maker in clutch situations, I would not trust him.

We should look into trading SETH.LEMASTER. I'm pretty sure he's a Cowboys fan sent to destroy us from within (think Deion Sanders in 2000).

beep beep, new thread but no news...fair warning.

If Harvey is there we should go with him, but if he showed great at his proday he will most likely be gone.

GOOD NEWS AT LAST!!!

This may come as faint comfort, but it appears we may not be the dumbest civilized society on the planet.

Apparently, in Great Britain, one out of three children think Winston Churchill was the first man to walk on the Moon. Everyone here knows Neil Armstrong was first. Churchill was second.

Well I guess we will have to disagree on Campbell. I wasnt trying to say what WOULD happen - i'm just not sold on Campbell at all. I mean, i can't really beleive Zorn is either. he doesn't like black QBs, remember? I think we will sign a white QB at some point in the draft, thereby proving Zorns racism.

Seriously though, assuming Campbell is our #1 and Collins is our #2, what round will we draft our #3 and who do you guys think will be a good fit?

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