Swamps of Jersey

Dulles Toll Road. Beltway. I-95. Jersey Turnpike. Meadowlands -- what better way to spend a beautiful Sunday? Before I depart, a few not-so-deep thoughts:

*Did Tommy Smyth really say on BSPN (in case you missed it on the Insider the other day, ESPN has changed its change to become the Beckham Soccer Programming Network) that people will be asking each other where they were when Becks made his debut? Was he being sarcastic? Did I miss the context?

This was not Neil Armstrong taking a giant leap for mankind. Considering Beckham's meager minutes and few touches, I'd say it was more like former U.S. defender Desmond Armstrong making a giant back pass for mankind or former DCUer Stephen Armstrong scoring a giant goal for mankind in Charleston's Open Cup upset of Houston.

*Did Dave O'Brien really say that Michael Essien was part of the Ghana side that eliminated the United States in the second round of the World Cup? So Bruce Arena got the Americans though group play, after all. Someone tell Sunil.....

Please tell me if I heard these things incorrectly.

I could only tolerate bits and pieces of BSPN's fawning and cheerleading last night, but am curious to know what you thought of the presentation and broadcast. For me, the HD broadcast was very nice to watch and the HDC setting seemed electric. The fact that BSPN is putting a serious commitment into soccer should also be encouraging to all supporters of the game in this country.

Meantime.....

Young Freddy might be out of here sooner than we thought. Some insight into the situation in today's SLC Tribune.

Things are happening in Cleveland -- yes, Cleveland -- thanks in part to Drew Carey and a stadium plan.

I will rejoin you from Giants Stadium an hour or two before kickoff -- traffic permitting -- with the lineup and some notes.

By Steve Goff |  July 22, 2007; 8:54 AM ET Misc.
Previous: D.C.'s Stadium Woes | Next: Matchday 16: DCU at RBNY

Comments

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The game has no dignity as presented by BSPN. It's treated like a food eating contest or a skateboarding event.

Nice Pic quality tho!

Posted by: JkR | July 22, 2007 9:24 AM

Don't know how many people here read the BBC.com footie stuff, but two links for ya:

This first one featured Terry Cooke and Danny Dichio on the relative quality of MLS. Lots of great quotes about the play, refs, fans, atmosphere, etc:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/6222526.stm

This second one is a nice little op-ed about how people who talk about Beckham as a "savior" of soccer in the US are woefully misinformed as to its current popularity:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/6904077.stm

Posted by: edgeonyou | July 22, 2007 9:37 AM

I think we might be neighbors.

And we might as well brace ourselves for an NHL type expansion over the next 5 years. I feel like we're gonna be seeing 2 new teams per year for a while.

As for the game on BSPN last night. I enjoyed it. I agree with everything Goff said, but I'm still just happy that they're paying attention to the sport and the league. This is what they do with all the sports they care about, so why not us too? It's better then the alternative.

Posted by: lawrenceterp | July 22, 2007 9:45 AM

About last night:

I think Smyth was deliberately and sarcastically being over the top with the "where were you when" comment because his BSPN bosses told him to maintain the hype.

I hate the cutaways to him and continuous references to him, but it's a friendly and they showed gratuitous shots of Eva Longoria.

No shots of Bianca Kajlich, but I wouldn't have recognized her anyway.

Nice cross to Kirk (?) when he came on. Spot on.

Donovan could have been a hero, but it was a big game in front of a large audience and he didn't have time to kiss his fingers before the header.

Bobby Boswell remains the only American to score on Chelsea.

Posted by: I-270, Exit 1 | July 22, 2007 9:46 AM

as a soccer fan, parts of the broadcast made me cringe, however I wish the first quote from soccer insider was in celebration for MLS and those that made last night possible. The spectacle was incredible, Beckham's stamp on this league is awesome. The publicity from last night is incredible for MLS. Who knows about tomorrow for the league but this night should be celebrated as a huge win for MLS and the future of soccer kid across the country.

Posted by: Francisco | July 22, 2007 10:10 AM

Do we really need another team in Ohio?

I really hope MLS makes its demands on the Adu transfer reasonable so as not to scuttle this one like they did EJ's transfer. Starting off in Portugal would be great for Adu, much better than starting in the EPL.

Posted by: G-Dub | July 22, 2007 10:19 AM

Sorry, Steven, but I WILL fondly remember where I was when Beckham made his debut.

I know it has become fashionable to denigrate and dismiss the hype, but I still think it was one of the biggest moments (if not THE biggest) in MLS history.

I guess Tommy and I should apologize for our excitement.

Posted by: Elliott | July 22, 2007 10:22 AM

I can think of only two explanations for Tommy's "giant leap" moment: the first is that, as suggested above, he was being facetious; the second is that something very mysterious happened and Tommy's body was briefly possessed by the mind of Brent Mussberger.

Posted by: Mitch | July 22, 2007 10:29 AM

tommy's comment HAD to be facetious. i got a chuckle out of it as it never crossed my mind that he was being serious.

Posted by: antonio | July 22, 2007 10:34 AM

Can you really call what BSPN is doing a serious effort? If they were really putting in a serious effort they would use a play by play guy that knows the sport and would make sure that such basic facts as what round the US lost to Ghana were correct. It's especially poor considering that O'Brien called that game for BSPN.

The pic quality was nice.

I was surprised at how critical Wynalda was last night. I would have expected that BSPN/MLS would've muzzled him so as not to ruin the spectacle. It was nice to see Landon get ripped on by an MLS broadcaster as earlier in the broadcast they weren't even convinced that Becks would be taking over free kick duties from Landy.

Posted by: Anonymous | July 22, 2007 10:46 AM

Although I think it's incorrect, I think I can explain O'Brien's error. Some people actually call the qualifying stages for the World Cup the first "round." The group stages of the World Cup finals are then the second round, followed by the round of 16, quarters and so on. I'm only attempting to explain what I think he meant, not that I think it's accurate. Of course he could just be an idiot.

Posted by: Luis | July 22, 2007 10:54 AM

A solid ten minutes of "coverage" of the game on Sportscenter, but never showed the only goal nor mentioned another player, not even the one that took Becks to the ground. It's like Fox News' coverage of a Bush press conference -- all celebration, no substance. (not that I'm under any illusion that it was an important match, but they show 30 or 40 meaningless home runs every night...)

And btw, McBride and Bocanegra have both scored on Chelsea.

Posted by: bbarrie | July 22, 2007 10:55 AM

Steven,

I'll start off by offering mountains of sincere praise for the tremendous success and unprecendented info source that Soccer Insider has become.

With that said, I urge you to resist the temptation towards cynicism and sarcasm that seems to consume so many sports writers.

I've been a religious supporter of DCU, MLS, and all things soccer Americana since the '96 revolution (and even before). And I'm typically quite skeptical of media hype and senseless celebrity "cheerleading." But I found last night's spectacle to be one of the most purely thrilling milestones in American soccer since I witnessed Cruyff and Pele on the field thirty years ago. What say we overlook a few rough edges in the media coverage and focus on the monumental progress in economics, player quality, and league development that last night's episode represents?

On a similar note, not to sound overly harsh, I would sincerely appreciate more insights on the DCU stadium debacle outside of the over-used "Zzzzzzzzzzz." This is a complex and critical issue for our home team that warrants some probing journalism to be better understood by the concerned public. As mentioned in one of the BBC Sport links posted above, MLS is aiming for near league-wide profitability built on the foundations of soccer-specific stadiums circa 2010. Where does that leave DC if we can't ink a deal over several years of effort? Should we really be concerned about losing our team to Loudoun, Balti, or Philly?

So thanks again for some outstanding work of late, and I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in the cup for what I think could make it even more valuable.

Cheers.

Posted by: speculation | July 22, 2007 11:00 AM

Putting up with the type of moronic overhype that has accompanied Beckham's arrival is the price that we hardcore soccer fans have to pay in order for the sport to reach the point we want it to reach in this country. We all, in the long run, dream about the same thing: a top-flight American league, significant fan and media interest, and an Ameican national team capable of winning a World Cup. We can't get there without the money and interest of the casual fan. So, yes, in the short run, we'll have to put up with Dave O'Brien, mid-game Jennifer Love Hewitt interviews, and fans who show up late and don't understand the offside rule. But in the long run we'll get a stronger, financially healthier, more popular league, which will lead to a higher level of competition and better American players.

Posted by: Jeff M | July 22, 2007 11:14 AM

As I remember it, O'Brien just said that Essien was part of the Ghana team that "knocked the U.S. out" of the World Cup, which is essentially true because we needed a win to have a chance of advancing.

Posted by: Matt | July 22, 2007 11:17 AM

Please, can we all pray that the Cleveland deal does not go through.

Posted by: Peter | July 22, 2007 11:36 AM

I'm happy that Becks is here, but it would be nice if his team could string a few passes together.

Posted by: So Md | July 22, 2007 11:44 AM

Did anyone see the ChelseaTV broadcast of the game? Much, much, much superior to the BSPN production. Granted, I don't think that exact style would fly with Americans, but man it would be leaps and bounds beyond the balogna we get with BSPN.

I'll continue to say this until someone either punches me in the face or listens, but ESPN MUST MUST MUST change the angle from which they broadcast the games. When you get so up close and move the camera as much as they do you ruin much of the experience of watching the game on the tube. You can't see off the ball runs, you can't see the team movement in build up, and it makes it much harder to appreciate penetrating runs. If I could change only one thing about how ESPN produces MLS games, this would be it.

Next to that, I'd take the booth down to two commentators. I'd keep Waldo as the color commentator. We don't really get along, he and I, but he's opinionated enough and I think hate him or love him he brings talking points to the game. He also manages to stay away from this gimmicky off the field stories. After that, I'd go searching around MLS local broadcasts/international sources for a PBP guy. ESPN will manage to kill every game until we get a decent PBP commentator. And sadly, there really aren't too many quality options. But Rob Stone and DOB ARE NOT OPTIONS. Sorry, they are unacceptable. Sean Wheelock would be someone that I could bite the bullet and stand, especially over the current staff. But we need to do better, and ESPN would do well during the offseason to send some PBP guys across the pond to observe and learn. Hopkins is first off the bench for either position and retains his sideline reporting position indefinitely. He's one of the first quality guys we've had at any level from within ESPN for MLS reporting.

If these changes were made, there wouldn't be much left to do. I've seen some pretty good first half recaps on Thursday nights after half time, and in general the graphics etc are quality. It's just that the two aformentioned problems are so important that messing them up takes what could be good production on ESPN to a farce on BSPN.

All of this being said, it really was a great thing for American soccer. If the Galaxy can maintain themselves on the LA A-list of events, they'll be well on the way to creating a reasonably well off "superclub." Clearly their roster isn't there yet and I think everyone is awaiting the upcoming grapplings with the salary cap but we'll see what happens and I'm sure the league will "bend" to make it happen.

Also, here's hoping the league gets full price for Adu and he's off the Benefica sooner than later. Seems like it's time, and that it'll be best for all parties.

Posted by: RJ | July 22, 2007 11:54 AM

Some good comments above, but I take umbrage with anyone who thinks that Alan Hopkins should remain. He's completely useless in the vein of all other sideline reporters who ask the same stupid questions in all other sports. And no more interviews in the middle of play (Comcast is very guilty of this too, interviewing coaches mid-game, what kind of nonsense is this).

Posted by: Anonymous | July 22, 2007 12:06 PM

I wouldn't know about the audio presentation; if you mute the front audio channels on BSPN, you can't hear announcing.

However, I'm not sure if BSPN's strategy of focusing on celebrities in attendance and massive hype will be noticed by those consumers who decide what they view based on recap show reports and hype. Anyone who watched SportsCenter last night saw Beckham early, and Beckham-related entertainment segments later. However, analysis (if you want to say last night's game could've had any) was lacking.

What I'm trying to say is... PTI needs 5 good minutes of the Goffer.

Now, we United fans could use some good news today. Maybe something about DCSEC's price for RFK Stadium land...

Posted by: B.A. | July 22, 2007 12:08 PM

You know, I will remember where I was when Becks made his debut. So will my son, a 10-year-old select soccer player. (He's away with family, but he watched it on TV.) I bet most U.S. soccer fans will. It was a moment. We have memories. They click.

Posted by: soccer mama | July 22, 2007 12:29 PM

all the soccer broadcast bashing is getting kind of old. it's not that bad. in fact, i guess i'm not as uppity a fan as most people appear to be out there, b/c i really enjoyed the coverage on ESPN. the production quality was good, i enjoyed the banter, and while the game wasn't the best contest it still entertained me.

maybe it's b/c i'm also a fan of other american sports broadcasts that have similar formats. i mean, do you guys complain about NFL games, NHL games, and college football games on ESPN too? b/c it was just as quality a broadcast as those. keep up the good work ESPN.

Posted by: soccer fan | July 22, 2007 12:47 PM

The high point of the night was when they were interviewing Drew Carey and he called ESPN out for interviewing Pablo during the build up and first goal of the all-star game.

Posted by: Colm | July 22, 2007 12:47 PM

Benfica is far and away the best choice of the three for Freddy. Celtic and Spurs play in leagues that are just too physical for Freddy´s physique. I lived in Lisbon for awhile and got to watch Benfica quite a bit. The atmosphere - especially for the Benfica v Sporting derby - will help out. Benfica is usually in contention for Champions league or UEFA Cup play.

The Portuguese league, while essentially comprised of three or four high quality teams and the rest as also-rans (similar to Scotland in this respect) depends much more on technique than physicality and/stamina. The Portuguese Primeira is loaded with imported Brazilians and a fair number of Africans, all of whom are technically deft and show some flair. It will give Freddy a chance to play to his stengths.

Benfica went after Eddie Johnson in a big way, but MLS screwed him and would not sell. Of course dumbass E.J. later extended his contract with MLS...bad move.

Freddy wont be the first gringo to play in Lisbon though...Jovan Cirovski played for Sporting and GK Zack Thornton played a season at Benfica.

The kid needs to go, NOW. A good showing at Benfica will get him looks from bigger clubs. He is 18, plenty of time to put in two or three great seasons, and still be very young.

Posted by: Erick | July 22, 2007 12:47 PM

Speculation...well said.

I was snickering at the hype until ESPN started showing some of those stadium shots of the packed house and the views from the Goodyear blimp. Those were priceless in conveying the seriousness of the sport to the casual viewer. When was the last time the Goodyear blimp was overhead for a soccer game in this country...the 1999 Women's World Cup final?

And I very much agree that if Steve doesn't see it in his charter to dig into the stadium issue that is so critical to this team, then The Post needs to get someone on this aspect of the story. In the long run it is more important than any particular match and the story leading up to that match. Note that one of the TV stations cared enough to get Barry to comment on the latest stadium news (he's not pleased) and tried to get the FO to comment (it wouldn't). Where is something similar from our hometown newspaper?

To me the interview highlight of the game was of Drew, when he had a hard time not being distracted by wanting to watch the action on the field and where he chided TV coverage about missing action because they were cutting away for one reason or another. Great stuff.

Posted by: seahawkdad | July 22, 2007 12:56 PM

I agree with the comments about coverage. O'Brien is the worst and is always unprepared. Wynalda isn't bad. I will say this many times --let the game breathe. I felt suffocated by all the talking. That said, we should start an email movement to force ESPN to give MLS a weekly show. Fantasy football has its own show.

I have a question --does anyone know who the guys that usually call the Bayern games on GOLtvEnglish (the one man british guys; not O'Donnel, Schoen, or Hudson)?

Posted by: jkr | July 22, 2007 1:03 PM

best comment last night came from Drew Carey. He blasted ESPN about talking to people when action is on the pitch and cited what they did when JPA scored at the All-Star game. Based on that, give the man what he wants.

Posted by: jkr | July 22, 2007 1:10 PM

Electric atmosphere is right. I was at the HDC yesterday and it was really something to behold (once you got past the $20 for the cheapest parking and the red carpet entrance for celebrities). I know I'll remember it. But then, I was there...

Posted by: Robert | July 22, 2007 1:27 PM

For those who think people complaining about the broadcasts are uppity, just because you enjoy all the bells and whistles doesn't mean we don't have legitimate gripes because BSPN doesn't actually show us the entire game. Yes the production is well done, BSPN never has a problem with that. It's also one thing to constantly talk during the action, which is annoying (same for other sports, if it's not BPB or simple analysis of the game I don't want to hear it), but at least you're watching the game. It's another thing to cut away from the action entirely, whether its for an interview or the all too common close-up focus on one player while the ball is elsewhere. These are legitimate problems with the telecast because BSPN just isn't as deft with its soccer coverage in comparison with other sports, where timeouts and breaks in play are common.

I didn't actually watch the Cheslea-Gals game, but the Drew Carey comment sounds great. I wish more people would call them out if they're being distracted from the game.

Posted by: G-Dub | July 22, 2007 1:33 PM

Interesting news about Cleveland. I hope the town can support a team!

I've withheld judgement on ESPN's coverage of Beckham until the conclusion of yesterday's game. I feel this network is misguided in its coverage of Beckham by focusing too much on the "entertainment tonight" topics and not enough on soccer, especially when the games are being played. Specifically...

ESPN should be highlighting more what Beckham contributes to a soccer team and how his key contributions are really specialist functions (e.g., passing long distances with accuracy, free kicks) as well as examining Beckham's play overall; they did a little of it but not enough.

They missed huge opportunities to talk about the Chelsea team, its world class coaches and players and what they contribute to soccer: Drogba, Essien, Lampard, Terry, Makelele, Shevchenko, J. Cole, Cech, Carvalho, Mourinho, to name just ten. What great contributors to the game! It would have been interesting for Americans to hear what Lampard, Terry and Cole had to say about playing with Beckham on England's national team and his characteristics as a player. Again, they did a little of it but not nearly enough.

Lastly, ESPN got even further away from commenting on tonight's game in any sort of intelligent way. It was an embarrassment and I can't believe they are not turning people off. The same was true during the All-Star game with Celtic present and some of the best players in MLS.

I would have much preferred listening to Derek Rae and JP Dellacamera than the six they had on yesterday. Sometimes I can stomach Tommy Smyth but yesterday he was deplorable. I'm usually okay with Eric Wynalda and I give him greater bandwidth because at least he stands up for soccer. The others were as bad as Tommy.

ESPN's Beckham coverage outside of the 90 minutes being played can be whatever plays to the general public but I expect a lot more from the actual game broadcasts. Enrich the game experience and share the great aspects of world soccer for a potentially new fanbase don't turn it into vapid banter that barely focuses on the game, soccer as a sport, and the players on hand including Beckham.

Posted by: 12th man | July 22, 2007 1:41 PM

I encourage everybody who's complaining about the announcers to do what I do: watch the game on mute, and send emails to ESPN to let them know you're doing it. I don't know if it makes any difference, since Nielsen can't tell whether you mute a show or not, so ESPN still gets the ratings either way. But hopefully, if ESPN hears that enough viewers aren't listening to the broadcasters plug whatever inane show they're pushing these days, maybe they'll do something to change it.

Posted by: Kenobi | July 22, 2007 1:45 PM

I actually did make an attempt to listen to this game, but every time they went off on some celeb-based tangent, I hit the mute button. I seriously hope Wynalda was being sarcastic about Posh's sunglasses.

Posted by: Kenobi | July 22, 2007 1:48 PM

1. I think people who actually follow mls football will know where they were but the rest of the public? not really. it's not the coming of the messiah.

2. I'm ok with Smyth but I think the others announcer are pretty horrible and that's why if i have a choice i watch the games on spanish language channels.

3. Stadium plan: DC gov will always go with private developer using all private money w/o subsidies. I think the team should look at RFK site, H street Corridor, or Petworth.

4. I hope MLS lets Adu go for a reasonable price (7.5 mil!?) and agreed, he should go to the spanish or portuguese top flights.

Posted by: rosado | July 22, 2007 1:54 PM

I like the British articles linked by edgeonyou. In particular, I think the US media greatly over-exaggerates the need for Beckham to "save" the sport. Soccer is healthy in the US and will not die from the mistakes of the NASL. Even the Post's own Wilbon says that soccer has surpassed the NHL as the fourth sport in the US. Furthermore, all the Jim Rome and Kornheiser types who love to bash it are aging and out of touch. As the newer generation of Americans who grew up accepting soccer get older and take the place of such mouthpieces, then the popularity of the sport will only increase.

I second the nomination of Goff for Five Good Minutes on PTI. Let's get this done!

Posted by: Not buying the hype | July 22, 2007 2:05 PM

Where was I when Beckham made his debut? It was a FRIENDLY FFS... who cares? I absolutely deplore watching matches on ESPN, thankfully most matches on ESPN are also on Univision/Telefutura, and even if I can't understand the majority of what is said, I don't have to contend with the circus production values.

It's nice to see the Cleveland proposal, but I'd much prefer to see Philly, Seattle, Portland, and Vancouver hit the league before them.

Posted by: AlecW81 | July 22, 2007 2:14 PM

I like bits and pieces of the ESPN broadcasts. I don't like ESPN. I like that ESPN shows the games. I don't always like the announcers or the commentary. I like that it was HD. I didn't like the camera angles. I like the ESPN build up. I hated the overhyping of a meaningless match. I like that there are no commercial breaks. I hate SportCenter at 30, interviews, and worthless graphics removing the game from the screen.
Waldo is a love or hate guy and that is why he works for the MLS broadcasts. I tend to hate him, but I'm glad somebody is critical of Landycakes. Hopkins is beyond useless. At least he wasn't standing in the rain last night. We don't need the sideline people and the roving reporters interviewing celebrities. Drew Carey actually trying to watch the game and mentioning ESPN cutting away from the matches for interviews during prior games made me laugh.

Yes, it's a chance, it's a gamble, but nothing to promote soccer in the past can hold a candle to what is going to be happening now to promote the sport. What kind of mayor would I be if I turned that away?

Posted by: sitruc | July 22, 2007 2:41 PM

1) How did RSL beat Everton? Findlay is saving RSL from death.
2) Posh Spice is hot
3)My soccer team beat Armstrong's team.

Posted by: Garret | July 22, 2007 2:45 PM

Where was I when Beckham made his debut? It was a FRIENDLY FFS... who cares? [...]

Posted by: AlecW81 | July 22, 2007 02:14 PM


Right ... because, you know, one of the best sides in the world plays friendlies in the US with such rich subplots (Terry faces Beckham, will a huge star play through an injury or won't he, will an inferior US club find a way to hold its own for 90 minutes against some of the world's best) all the time.

Posted by: Jonathan | July 22, 2007 3:12 PM

I love Drew Carey.

What would be wrong with Cleveland getting a team? I grew up in Ohio and EVERYONE plays soccer there. I just don't understand how Tampa and Miami couldn't support teams. It blows my mind that there is no MLS in Florida.

This hype makes me nervous. Becks is a big deal, no doubt. But when you build him up to be the Messiah of MLS, there is nothing he can do except be disappointing. It feels like Freddy Adu all over again.

Posted by: Crewgrrl20 | July 22, 2007 3:48 PM

I'm also from Cleveland . . . the city supported its indoor team quite well in the '80s, and the local paper covered the games in a decent manner. The Wyandots (my team name suggestion) would outdraw NYRB, easily, for whatever that's worth. Brad Friedel could kick out the first ball.

Posted by: gringo | July 22, 2007 9:27 PM

Section 138, row V, seat 6. Right behind the LA Riot Squad (frequently heard to be chanting "support your local team!").

Yeah, I was there too. I haven't heard that much screaming -- just for Becks tying his shoelaces! -- since the last "Dancing with the Stars" broadcast. Paying to park in a dirt lot with a yuppie food coupon ($20) blew, though.

But I did get a nice action picture of Becks' first significant touch -- the pass to Kirk.

It'll be interesting to see how the crowd in Columbus reacts to Beckham...I'm going to be in Ohio around that time.

Thought: How would a team in Cleveland affect the Crew, if at all? Wondering what the demographics are as relating to out of town (Cleveland, Cincinnati, Dayton area) fans vice local Columbus supporters.

Posted by: SportzNut21 | July 22, 2007 9:59 PM

ESPN is just kills games off for me. Repeatedly.

Posted by: Mr.Bill | July 23, 2007 2:01 AM

a trusted lackey is reading this blog to me, because I gouged my eyes from watching the broadcast. I pulled off my ears to satiate the pain from listening to the inane droning on the "savior". I even pulled out my tongue after licking the screen. Perhaps, self-control would have been more appropriate. Live and learn.

Posted by: JSF | July 23, 2007 7:13 AM

Benfica is at the table for Adu but I would be surprised if the trigger is pulled so soon. Italian media has been reporting that Parma is interested and if Rossi isn't sold to them by ManU, they are prepared to offer $10 million for Adu and, as much as it is possible, assure him of a starting spot.
No offense Portuguese fans, but Serie A would be a MUCH better platform for Freddy and Parma has a good record of fostering young talent.

Posted by: papa bear | July 23, 2007 7:19 PM

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