I wonder if teams qualifying for international tournaments should get extra allocation money to offset the salary cap.

It would give a greater advantage to the better teams (that year / the previous year), but it would help success internationally and it would actually reward teams for doing well. It would also help to establish an elite culture, seen in other leagues, where good performance provides monetary rewards and a better team.

I'm not even sure you can say the roster size is 28. 10 of those spots are "developmental" which means they have to have a job on the side and can't focus completely on their soccer play. The other 18 spots definitely do NOT have a high enough average to make the teams competitive over a long season with lots of potential for injuries.

We saw this at the end of last season when both Chivas and DC had injuries to their forwards. While both teams were definitely the best in the league, they didn't have the backup to handle those injuries.

Wouldn't it make more sense to tier the two competitions (ala Champions League and UEFA Cup) in whichever order to open it up for more teams and remove the strain from those few?

So if you looked at last year's standings you'd have - DC, NE, CHV and HOU in the CCC and NY, CHI, KC and DAL in SuperLiga?

Not sure if this solvces the real problem on calendars. With the MLS playoffs and CCC being at exactly teh same time. Lets see someone pull that double?

>>"in their sparkling-new, publicly financed ballpark">>>

You mean "amusement park", don't you?

I mean with batting cages, a video game complex, a HD scoreboard (!!??). The District should get a rebate from MLB.

MLS/DC United just needs to play its roster and realize that some of these international fixture are more important. You don't realize what you have until you put them on the field...that is why Burch & Mediate are playing now. If B&M were any good (as determined by MLS/DC united last year) they would not have been on developmental contracts. Teams should not have to wait for injuries or call ups for players to get opportunity especially when teams are playing at least 2 games a week.

Why did they start this Champion's League this year? It makes no sense to get it revved up now with such a heavy calendar. I understand the need to get a winner by the Spring for the World Championship, but they could have started next year and abbreviated everything.

I'd start as many reserves as possible in Superliga. I have a feeling this will be it's last year.

Good idea, Steve, . . . . pass it on to Garber.

""Wouldn't it make more sense to tier the two competitions (ala Champions League and UEFA Cup)""

I couldn't disagree with you more Goff. I like how you worded about the Nats.
I am sure you will share it but any new progress on reaching Pachuca - DCU partnership club thing?
Sitll no deal or buzz about the Jersey sponsor? I know this has brought up almost everyday but I am hoping to buy a new Gallardo shirt with full DC logo on it.

Of those at Nats Stadium/Amusement Park on Monday night( Attendance - 20,487), do you have any idea how many parked at RFK and took the free shuttle? Any upcoming shared-RFK lot issues when DC United hosts Pachuca while the Nats also have a game on Wednesday night 4/9?

I'm in the camp that if the CCL is going to be the primier tournament in the region, then you can't expect teams like DC to also play in the SuperLiga. There's to much fixture congestion.

I think MLS needs to think long and hard about who is going to qualify for what tournament.

Agree completely. And K. Payne makes a good point to.

Re: Nationals low attendance...Crappy teams with no stars playing on a crappy weather night with the college basketball finals on..this was probably expected. Baseball crowds are usually down across the country during the school week. It will pick up.

-------
I'd start as many reserves as possible in Superliga. I have a feeling this will be it's last year.
-------

The reported $1 million prize money for SL makes it a desirable trophy for MLS clubs. I don't know what kind of line-ups we'll see in July, but I'd imagine the MLS teams would like to win.

And with MLS/SUM/FMF/Univi$ion all backing the SuperLiga tournament, I do think it will stick around for a good long time (and there's nothing stopping the organizers from "improving" the tournament by including some name European/S.American clubs at some point for the summer club invitational.

Tickets go on sale today for US Soccer people for Argentina/US. They just give a password (so if you do a little digging you can find it, its not hard).

I'll hopefully be in the upper tier US supporters section. Here's to hoping its more than 2 of us...

WRT 20K at the Nationals game - according to Kasten it's all good, as the stadium staff can't handle a crowd any bigger than this yet anyway. Good times.

I doubt any of these teams were forced by the league to participate in all these tournaments. They know the drill. Any fixture congestion problems are the responsibility of the individual teams.

If the Gnats had 20,000 there last night my name is Kent Brockman. Padding attendance figures for the amusement park already? So, why was it so important, Mr. Tony Williams, that baseball come back to DC? Why was it so important that we, the residents of DC, paid for the whole stadium without filthy rich MLB or its filthy rich owners paying for anything and then not even giving something as simple as community service back?

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Re: Nationals low attendance...Crappy teams with no stars playing on a crappy weather night with the college basketball finals on..this was probably expected. Baseball crowds are usually down across the country during the school week. It will pick up.
-------

exactly, everything needs to be put in context. and they were playing the non-marquee "Marlins."

but that is a heck of a list of excuses, and Nats attendance should improve. but perhaps that stadium is "too big" for the crowds that will regularly be going to it.

If United ever gets a stadium (their planned 27K seats seems like a better/appropriately-sized model that will lead to better game-day atmosphere).

Baseball will always have a place as the US's past-time, but I do think soccer/MLS has the real potential to catch up with (and perhaps pass, at some point -- maybe in several decades) baseball/MLB in this country. And should United/Clark build a stadium at Poplar Point, DC might be a very good indicator of that changing future.

That is of course until the Cubs or Phillies come to town and everyone talks about how great the Nats games are.

I doubt any of these teams were forced by the league to participate in all these tournaments. They know the drill. Any fixture congestion problems are the responsibility of the individual teams.

Posted by: Mastodon Juan | April 8, 2008 10:26 AM

Easy enough for you to say. Your team QUALIFIES for nothing by WINNING nothing. We QUALIFIED for SuperLiga and the CCL. There's no way out of those tournaments. We'd have to suck like the Red Donkeys to not be in these tournaments. Hell, we'll play our reserves in the hopes of getting knocked out of the US Open Cup to clear the schedule a little bit.

I doubt any of these teams were forced by the league to participate in all these tournaments. They know the drill. Any fixture congestion problems are the responsibility of the individual teams.

Posted by: Mastodon Juan | April 8, 2008 10:26 AM

Easy enough for you to say. Your team QUALIFIES for nothing by WINNING nothing. We QUALIFIED for SuperLiga and the CCL. There's no way out of those tournaments. We'd have to suck like the Red Donkeys to not be in these tournaments. Hell, we'll play our reserves in the hopes of getting knocked out of the US Open Cup to clear the schedule a little bit.

Now, this is why the MLS regular season is only important if you are fighting to be Team #8 and Team #1 - 1 Gives you CCL and SuperLiga berths. #8 gives you another shot. If you're in the Top 8, it's useless to care otherwise.

MLS needs to AXE the Playoffs and MLS Cup. Push for the single table and single champion so as to add the importance to matches that they should have so teams aren't having to spread out the roster (ie. pick where they can rest the big guns because the other team is Toronto/Derby County).

If SuperLiga sticks around (and it's likely to given the commercial success and it's the arm of the two biggest leagues in the region) and eventually is a way for MLS and FMF to decide which teams will go to Libertadores since they hate the InterLiga and you toss in a Champions League, where's the need for the playoffs anymore.

From mid July through November, the Top 4 teams are going to be playing almost every 4 days. It's nice that the SuperLiga teams have light July's but still.

People are going to tell me that a single table is hard to do and won't enjoy the atmosphere that it does in other places in the world. My only point is that in 2010 you're likely to have all teams in their own venue except for the Revs and Seattle. (Wow look where MLS has come). You'll have 16 teams. That's 30 matches, home and away - totally balanced. That's what MLS is asking teams to play now and look at the fixture congestion that is building.

MLS has three years to figure out their CBA (DB's annual salary pays the living wage of Developmental Guys), get the US Open Cup a respected place, and get a Single Table going with people looking forward to the international competitions (CCL, SuperLiga, SudAmericana, Libertadores) rather than the MLS playoffs with the "Marquee Game".

Is it safe to say that D.C. United will let the Kickers or the Raging Rhinos or whoever win the first round of the us open cup?

As much as I hate to say it, I am rooting for the nats to sell out every game. The better they do, the more the city will see an investment in United.

Knowing about the congestion and being in a position to do something about it are 2 different things. The MLS salary and roster caps are not designed for that type of schedule. Every MLS team is 1-2 key injuries away from disaster as it is.

Wouldn't it make more sense to tier the two competitions (ala Champions League and UEFA Cup) in whichever order to open it up for more teams and remove the strain from those few?

So if you looked at last year's standings you'd have - DC, NE, CHV and HOU in the CCC and NY, CHI, KC and DAL in SuperLiga?

Not sure if this solvces the real problem on calendars. With the MLS playoffs and CCC being at exactly teh same time. Lets see someone pull that double?
Posted by: Steve | April 8, 2008 10:07 AM
xxxxxx
I thought of this many times as well. This would at least help reduced fixture congestion for the top clubes like DC United while it allows other lower ranked MLS teams to expose to the international eyes. Not copying all EURO version but whatever works best for the clubes they must adopt it. Otherwise, putting sames clubes on all these competions will hurt the league in general because of the lack of roster talent the salary cap forbids bringing quality players. When you present not so great teams on the international spot it feeds poor league concepts towards MLS.

I've been saying the same thing that Steve brought up with the Superliga since the new Champions' League was announced. It makes all too much sense to just tier the tournaments. In fact, host them at the same time like in Europe.

The teams that don't get out of the qualification round should get bumped down to the Superliga with the next best clubs from different leagues instead of just MLS and FML. Have 2 groups of 4 teams play just 1 leg with the top 2 from each group advancing. Then, the 4 teams that finish 3rd in the group stage from the CL gets bumped down to play the 4 teams who advance from the Superliga.

That would mirror the UEFA Cup and still give teams a chance for international trophies, while at the same time keeping the tournaments competitive. I knew I couldn't have been the only one to think of that...

Roster shouldn't have an impact, as long as the MLS clubs begin to think 'european' (I hammer that issue here, I know).

Euro clubs have their 'league' side and their 'tournament' side (Rafa-style rotations aside). Basically, they save their best 11-16 for the matches that truly matter, given their position in the table versus the tournament, all in view of the silverware at hand.

The MLS playoff structure renders the regular season as a pointless exercise. The regular season ONLY matter insofar as one team gets the Supporters Shield - which has not intrinsic value other than ensuring a spot in the the international tournaments.

Any coach who risks their DP in a worhtless match against the Columbus Crew rather than save them for a match against Pachuca, Chivas, etc. should be fired. Soehn was smart conserving Gallardo in the Toronto match. REGULAR SEASON MEANS NOTHING, especially this early in the season (DCU has multiple Supporter's Shields and correspondingly empty MLS Cup shelves to show it).

The top MLS clubs should gear all their resources toward success in the international tournaments. They will garner no reputation abroad for beating the Crew or RSL...international recognition (and marketing $$$) will only come by competing with, and beating, top-flight teams from overseas.

Oh Goff, why did you open up the stadium can of worms again? But as long as you did, let's not get carried away with the idea that "DC residents" paid $610 million for the stadium. The stadium is financed with bonds. The bonds are paid off MOSTLY by NEW taxes on DC businesses, NOT DC "residents", with additional money from in-stadium taxes and stadium rent (i.e. stadium users). Supposedly DC recently figured out (as part of the DC United "process") that they taxed the businesses more than they needed to finance the bonds, which in the curious fashion of governments will not be rebated but is now "surplus" for them to do with, apparently, whatever they want. So unless you are a DC business with over $3 million in gross annual receipts, or a stadium user, I don't think you paid for anything. If I'm wrong, please let me know. I'll actually feel better about it.

Easy for you to say Juan with your total crap, not qualified for anything New Dork Red Balls.
Baseball attendance will pick up with the weather and the end of College hoops and the NHL, and NBA approaching their end.
The idea of tiering the tournaments to include consolation teams would make the most sense and allow for everyone to "feel the strain" of play outside of their regular league games.
Off topic a little but does anyone know if they'll be doing the United Drives donation thing tommorow night at RFK? website say "regular home games" but...

So, the answer to fixture congestion is to become an isolationist soccer country that doesn't care about the international status of its leagues or clubs and an abberation in world soccer by not participating in international club tournaments- right Juan, that's just stupid.

I don't know how they could give teams an opportunity to acquire more depth just for these tournaments. If you get extra roster spots for the tournament (1 season for the group with a continuation for the spring knock-outs or nect years group) you face the issue of what to do when the team isn't in it again next year. You cut back, say, 5 temp senior 'tournament' roster spots in a year making it that much more difficult to cut down and add the following year. The 5 spots would make it easier to provide more proven depth, granted, but they cause more trouble when they are gone. Better to improve depth league wide with permanent roster expansion for everyone and not just 5 teams (including Toronto as the presumptive Canadian entrant- now wouldn't that be fair- a team with an easier path to the Tournament gets the same benefits for performance as teams that achieved much more do on the basis of geography, and more than teams that finished above them).

I agree with everyone on the tiering of the tournaments.

Another good point to be made for this concept is that exposing the second-tier teams (KC, Dallas, NYRB, etc) to more international competition will just elevate the play of the league as a whole. You could argue that by repeatedly playing against the top Mexican teams like Chivas and Pachuca, the top US teams like Houston and DC are only going to get more experienced and improve each year. The rich get richer as the saying goes. I'd like to see MLS give some other teams a chance to prove themselves on the international scene. Hey, it worked for LA last year.

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Supposedly DC recently figured out (as part of the DC United "process") that they taxed the businesses more than they needed to finance the bonds, which in the curious fashion of governments will not be rebated but is now "surplus" for them to do with, apparently, whatever they want.
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If that is indeed true (and it might be), and that fact helps DC United get a new stadium in Poplar Point, then I have no problem with the DC Govt (and even MLB and their role in bringing baseball back to the city).

now, if just more people would get out and enjoy that new ballpark (er, family amusement facility) and United keeps moving toward a new stadium in Poplar Point, that will be a grand and positive redevelopment on both sides of the Anacostia. Just don't be surprised if the United stadium is deemed more of a success (and a more affordable one) than the Nats stadium

but at this point, at least the Nats stadium exists; so they got that going for them.

Well, "they" should build a stadium, "they" should pay the MLS players more money, etc. Who is "they"? Where is that money supposed to come from?

"Somebody somebody has to you, you see,
then she picked out two somebodies, Sally and me."

Steve,

Any word on the jersey sponsor for D.C. United? I want to purchase their jersey, but I'm still waiting for the sponsor.

Also, is there a deadline given by MLS for D.C. to have it's own stadium. We need it desperately.

20,000 is pretty impressive for two bad teams in playing in freezing weather in a game broadcast on free local TV. I can't think of too many things I would have sat outside for three hours for last night.

does anyone actually have an idea of what Pachuca's salary is, even roughly? It seems a given that it is bigger than United's, but how much bigger, any specifics? Even a ballpark figures for individual players like Gimenez, Caballero, Chitva, etc...

I think any exposure to international competition is great, so I'm all for Super Liga and Champions League. I just think that the "superior" MLS teams should prioritize what is important. International title or Domestic titles???

On an unrelated note look who is back in MLS...one more person I love to boo at RFK!

http://www.univision.com/content/content.jhtml?chid=4&schid=0&secid=368&cid=83584

K. Payne is right. Seriously, they need to tier the tournaments. Of course, that poses a dilemma, since SuperLiga, I imagine offers a richer payday. Presumably, though, CCL will be the #1 ranked tourney, at least in prestige. Besides, I don't think the MLS clubs have to worry about the relative paydays. We won't be winning either tourney very often.

Those that think these ought to substitute for the MLS Cup playoffs are out of their minds. Did you see the turnout for the Harbor View match. Maybe the hardcore can get into such tourneys, but most Amrican fans would want to watch the Revs and the Fire in the playoffs than the Dynamo and Saprissa. I know that even the MLS playoffs have smaller crowds than regular season matches, but that's due to weather only.

Tiering the tourneys would lessen extreme roster pressures. It would also give the second-tier teams an incentive to get stronger reserves. The fact is that the depth here stinks. The Mexican clubs have more talent in the top 11, but their real strength is they're deeper. When MLS starts paying a decent, living wage to reserve players, they might have some decent players in reserve.

Virginia Blue Blood, yuddaman. Mr. Garber will see you now.

I doubt any of these teams were forced by the league to participate in all these tournaments. They know the drill. Any fixture congestion problems are the responsibility of the individual teams."

That's fine in a league with no salary cap. If you can point to a league with a salary cap that competes in 3 international competitions with a limited roster, and does well, knock yourself out.

Somebody please explain this sponsor nonsense to me. I keep asking why this intense interst. Now we have someone openly admitting he's waiting to buy the jersey until the sponsor's name is on it? Why? Why are you more interested in being a billboard for VW or Audi, than for just plain old DC United? For my money, I'd rather get the jersey before it becomes a commercial billboard. On the other hand, I usually shy away from buying clothes that advertise the label/designer, too.

can't wait to see that Cabo Verde under 20 side! just kidding. should be a fun tournament. anyone notice that Marcelo Balboa is one of the assistant coaches?

Portugal also hosts the under 18s in May for a tournament in Lisbon.

Add the nation's limping economy to the reasons why not many people were at the game last night. Of course, the economy probably isn't hitting DC as hard as it is hitting us here in Florida.

Anyways, I don't buy any of the reasons. DC simply isn't a baseball town. I'd be curious to see a comparison of attendances at Day 2 of all new ballparks since 1990. Despite cold weather (Cleveland) and bad teams (Milwaukee, Pittsburgh), I can't imagine any of them were this bad.

I would like to see them get started ASAP on Poplar Point. For the Nats' opener, I parked at the Anacostia metro. Sheer brilliance on my part. A couple of dozen other fans had the same idea. Otherwise, an empty lot to park in, and uncrowded train to Navy Yard. However, after the game, I had the bright idea to walk across the bridge. This kinda freaked out the traffic guard who thought I was nuts.

I didn't feel unsafe, but it's a longer hike than it needs to be, because you have to walk way out of your way once you get over the river. Whatever development goes in there should include a direct pedestrian route from the bridge to the Metro.

"The stadium is financed with bonds. The bonds are paid off MOSTLY by NEW taxes on DC businesses, NOT DC "residents",

Business pass their tax burden on to.....customers...ie: DC Residents.

US U-20 squad. 3 palayers from Hertha Berlin. Somebody's doing a lot of U.S. scouting. Also, 3 players from FC Dallas -- and not youth players -- draftees. What are we to make of that?

As for those trying to compare the Nats to other cities with new parks -- it's apples and oranges. Those cities all had long traditions with an established fan base for the team. The Nats had big crowds that first year -- not just opening day. The Nats have some talent on the way -- they will start to win, and they will start to draw.

funny, i don't remember any of this kind of "concern" last year when the galaxy was prostituted by aeg, espn and mls throwing them in every lame tournament, stacking the schedule to get beckham in every city possible, etc...

no, last season i seem to recall nothing but scorn and derision for the galaxy's hubris and pitiful performance.

If there is one to come, without the shirt sponsor logo isn't a complete DC Jersey but I want a completed one. It's one way to show as a proud fan of the league and the individual player and ofcourse spread the game around. Doesn't mean I am marketing for the sponsor even though inadvertandly does.

Is Superliga viable without the top tier of MLS? Last year the Mexican teams weren't particularly enthused about adding more games to their schedule and it being invitational last year a number of teams I believe declined the invitation until we went down the standings to reach Morelia. There is a good chance Mexico just won't care at all to have a tourny vs the second tier of MLS or only send smaller teams instead of your America's and Chivas's in responce.

And prioritize games? You prioritize games by relying on your depth and the MLS rules make it difficult to acquire depth. This not only causes problems on teams with lots of games but also on teams with injury crises. I'm sure that Columbus would have welcomed being able to have more depth in 2006 & 2007 when they were struggling with multiple injuries.

A temporary bump just doesn't work for me. An allocation encourages further front loading. Temporary roster spots go away once you fail to qualify for the next go round and force ugly choices. You also have to deal with the fairness issues to the teams that just missed it vs a team that was way off (Toronto) that might participate in the tournament. All teams need more depth, it is just more evident and predictable for those in international tournaments. New league wide rules making the establishment of depth easier would be a good idea all around.

"Business pass their tax burden on to.....customers...ie: DC Residents."

Yeah, and what about DC business's that are owned by DC residents? Maybe I'm a little dense but it seems to me that would be no different than a taxation of residents. Furthermore, I'd say it's even worse because it's a tax specifically on hardworking residents that have the balls to start their own business within the district, when they could have an easier time doing so outside of the city lines.

Strained rosters _and_ strained fan bases.

What will the attendance look like at Superliga and Champions League games, and/or will it canabilize regular season matches?

I'm all for more competitions, but as a fan it's asking a bit much. At least most of it will be on TV somewhere, right?

If the Revs played in Boston, I'd be a season ticket holder. But getting out to Foxboro (45 minutes on the weekend, but longer in the summer and during the week) is a pain, and most fans have a limited dollar amount that to allocate to the Revs.

@are you mad?

I would wager that the businesses paying the bulk of the stadium receipts tax are business-to-business service providers whose clients are not primarily in DC, or companies owning commercial real estate in DC, not businesses serving individual DC residents directly or indirectly in any manner that would allow them cleanly to pass on these charges to "DC residents." Instead of straining for a reason, just acknowledge the naked reality that the mayor wanted a baseball stadium and he taxed the deep pockets because he had the power to do so. I'd also wager that the DC government has a luxury box or two at the new stadium for their trouble.

Adios Superliga. Your usefullness is history. Hasta la vista!

One other curveball to throw out there is the Pan Pacific Championship (I'd rename it the PP Cup if I were them). If they add New Zealand and K league sides in addition to J League, A League and MLS teams as Australian reports are saying, you're now looking at group play (2 groups of 4 or 3 groups of 3, I'd guess).

Since PPC is about Asian exposure and Superliga & CCL are American (north & south) exposure, they serve different purposes, thus I don't see PPC dying yet. Plus with cities like Vancouver, San Jose, LA, Seattle, as well as venues in Japan, Australia, Korea, and New Zealand potentially bidding on hosting, it could be interesting.

Tiering tournaments means that the PPC would get the some measure of the 5-8 teams. Maybe superliga gets 3-6 (or top 4 teams not in CCL group play) and 7-8 and Open Cup winner go to PPC, whatever. This might be okay when MLS has 18 teams, in terms of quality.

Still the problem with congestion is that if you are in the top 8, you make 2 additional tournaments (playoffs and CCL/Superliga/PPC). If you are in the bottom 10, you have no extra fixtures at all, save the US Open cup. Maybe they could have the non Playoff teams have playoffs for the PPC slots.

Anyway you look at it, there will be roster issues for the top teams. However, giving them more money to spend (relative to teams 9-16) hurts the potential for parity. tough decisions for league management, but more soccer for us.

My only point is that in 2010 you're likely to have all teams
in their own venue except for the Revs and Seattle.

-----------------------------------------------

And DC... At this point, the likelihood of DC playing in it's own stadium in March 2010 is pretty remote.

I doubt any of these teams were forced by the league to participate in all these tournaments. They know the drill. Any fixture congestion problems are the responsibility of the individual teams.

Posted by: Mastodon Juan | April 8, 2008 10:26 AM
---------------------------------------------

Ah yes...so sayeth the Red Bulls fan...

@edgeonyou

Technically, United has RFK to itself right now, but I take your point.

@edgeonyou

Technically, United has RFK to itself right now, but I take your point.

Posted by: JB | April 8, 2008 12:16 PM

Yes dC United is by themselves at RFK now but do you know how much money the team is losing renting RFK???

Euro clubs have their 'league' side and their 'tournament' side (Rafa-style rotations aside). Basically, they save their best 11-16 for the matches that truly matter, given their position in the table versus the tournament, all in view of the silverware at hand.

Posted by: Erick | April 8, 2008 10:38 AM

---------------------------------------------

The big problem with MLs teams taking that approach is the severe dropoff in the the "product" -- quality of play. The top Euro teams have such extreme depth that their "B-squad" will be able to play very elegant and entertaining soccer. I'm not really into Euro soccer, but I feel like whenever I look at match reports, I see plenty of country-capped players not on match rosters or as unused subs.

When MLS teams field their "B-squad" the quality of play is usually pretty weak and not that attractive for the fan. That's why you get MLS teams crashing out of the US Open every year and why you would have a real problem convincing people to pay money to watch.

For me, fixture congestion gives reserve players an opportunity to "show their quality" (to quote Faramir). I might be wrong, but I think Liverpool the other day started 8 different players from their previous game.

RE: the Argentina game, how does one enforce the "neutral" seating?

I feel that the main reason why MLS has a lack of depth on their teams is due to NCAA soccer not preparing players enough for the next level. Look at players who skip college are usually the better ones. (except Quaranta)

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@duh

Why the snark? I was simply pointing out that, for the purposes of scheduling, United no longer have to contend with conflicts in their stadium, as the Revs and Seattle do/will. You're the one who brought up revenue and profitability. Having said that, I'm as keen as anyone on United getting a SSS.

MLS has bitten off more than it can chew. If DCU is considered one of the deeper clubs in the MLS, then you can bet MLS will bomb out of the non league tournaments. Add in Open Cup and the fact some teams may lose up to 3 players to the Nats for qualifying come Summers end and I really have to wonder how much research was done by Garber and officials other than looking at $$$ the league earns by entering and possibly winning these Cups. As has been said before with watered down rosters for some of these games who the hell wants to pay to see subpar Futbol? Yes the exposure will be nice but if the play suffers so will the league ultimately...just my 2 cents

If the MLS is really serious about keeping a busy and an ongoing international schedule maybe they ought to think about a single table format and ditch the playoff system. That frees up some space on the calendar. Just food for thought

I say the first thing is to have the developmental players thing thrown out the window and give the players what they deserve... money for their work. Jersey sponsors and higher attendance should increase the amount that can be given to the players. CCL is extremely important. The SL is ridiculous and should go away. Instead, we should have participation in the Libertadores. That will put more money in pockets all around. Not many European players come to this continent to play. MLS can afford big name players now and the whole continent will want to watch them play in their stadiums.

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=========================================

Why do people pay top dollar for such seats? I consider them the worst seats in the house. Would you want to watch a game on TV if all the cameras were in the first two rows?

Also, the Revs and Sounder owners own the stadiums they play in, so revenue and profitability issues are kind of moot.

how can we expect more depth from MLS Teams when Half the team makes less than 25,000!

The answer to the fixture congestion problem is two-fold.

One, the league needs to keep increasing the salary cap. Here's hoping it doubles with the new CBA and new deep-pocket owners pushing for more good players.

Two, teams need to start making decisions about what is important to them. In England, the big four regularly roll out reserve squads and benchwarmers for FA Cup and Carling Cup games as they focus on the Champions League and EPL title.

Basically if DC United is going to be good enough to qualify for all these tournaments every year, it is going to have to pick which games in which to roll out all-reserve squads to play against real competition. They may lose, but setting priorities on what is OK to lose is part of the job of management.

I brought up the stadium issue merely as support for being able to control the dates of play. As it is to some extent now and at various times in the past - the MLS had to schedule around EVERYONE else first.

We all know that venues and dollars are the most important. But venues and date control are just as important to the product on the field.

The question that comes to mind for me is that, if MLS raises the cap significantly, what kind of players will get the benefits?

Will we see more quality foreigners signed on Emilio-style deals just below DP territory? Most teams are already close to their full allotment of 8 foreign players, but adding 1-2 truly good players per team would be a notable increase in quality and allow the fixture-congested teams that many more players that they can actually trust in games that matter. On the downside, that means a lot of cap room chewed up by a couple players, while developmental/senior minimum guys are still eating ramen.

Will we see MLS teams try to raid USL sides for their best players? Former MLS players playing USL-1 soccer have said that each USL team has 6 or so MLS-quality players, which to me would mean a range from "respectable starter" to "respectable sub". With a big cap bump, this could be a strategy some teams adopt, but it would also require a few more roster spots (something like 32-35 instead of the existing 28). A strategy like that would allow a team to have a few injuries and still have solid players on the field and subs' bench. It also wouldn't require too big of a cap bump, since we're talking about guys that would earn under $100K. Having seen USL teams against MLS teams, there are definitely good players down there that could make a difference.

I believe the key for MLS teams to succeed in these tournaments regularly (while also being able to do well in MLS) is to combine these two strategies, which would require a cap bump and larger rosters. I'm not talking too much here...$1 million more cap room, 4-7 more players per team. That leaves room for another notable foreign signing, 3-5 more solid role players to fill in the gaps, and some left over to raise the developmental pay above the poverty line.

My thoughts on the matter are:

You cant have the best of both worlds. It seems that MLS is struggling with its identity here. It seems like they want to take that next step and become an league that participates in international competitions, but they dont allow the funding neccesary to compete. I'm just not sure how you're going to do that and stay credible if we dont revamp how the league works.

Conceptually, the idea of "tiering" international competitions is a good one for MLS to give different teams exposure, experience, etc. So, I agree with people who have suggested that. The problem is that the CCL is where the champions (at least the SS and MLS Cup winners) should go and so SuperLiga seems like it should be the second tier (like the UEFA Cup). but, as has been mentioned, in terms of payoff (the prize money for SuperLiga is much higher) and potential revenue (it's much easier to sell tickets and TV time for a game against a Mexican squad than against one from Jamaica or Guatemala) then SuperLiga is probably the preferred competition to participate in. It dosn't hurt for a team to get greater exposure among Hispanics in the US either. So, you might encounter a situation where DCU qualifies for the CCL and not SuperLiga and say "why can't we participate in SuperLiga -- we earned that by winning the Supporters' Shield and would prefer to go".

Also, keep in mind the interesting situation that if MLS teams get a fixed bid to Copa Sudamericana, then teams in the CCL will be excluded from that givent hat the schedules overlap. Any MLS team participating in the 2008 Sudamericana will not be one of the CCL teams.

Oh, as as for the point of the MLS teams "choosing" to have the fixture congestion, they probably were not able to choose to be in the CCL -- CONCACAF has been pretty adament about having champions actually participate which is why Mexican league teams hadn't been able to turn down the CCC in order to play in Copa Libertadores. I suppose an MLS teams could turn down SuperLiga, but as mentioned, that's probably silly in terms of potential profit and exposure for those teams.

that 20K at the Nats is tickets sold not actual people attending. On TV it looked like less than half that number. I thought the shiny new ballpark itself was supposed to be a big draw. DC supports winners. The Caps have pitiful attendance unless they are winning. Until the baseball team starts winning it's not likely to fill the stadium on a regular basis. At least their small crowd should make it easy enough to get to RFK tomorrow and get home afterwards. I suppose our crowd will be fairly smallish as well.

Dan in FL says... "DC simply isn't a baseball town."

----------

I don't think I agree. DC has had a crappy team for its first three years and no history or tie to the team. In fact, many DC area residents are baseball fans -- but of other teams in MLB, not the Nats. Also, many local fans have been Orioles fans for years and so that doesn't change overnight.

But this *will* change with time. At some point the Nats will start winning and be a good team and will build the fan base. As is, they drew ~24,000 a game over 81 games last year for a bad team in an old stadium. That's not a bad start to building a fan base.

Surly, I am hardly a baseball defender, but MLS has been known to pad attendance figures, too.

USA-Argentina:

$292/seat for lower bowl midfield and $195/seat for mezzanine midfield?

For a friendly? WTF?

I know Argentina is a REAL GOOD TEAM (TM) but seriously, a friendly on a Sunday night?

Ugh.

That said, being the geek I am, I bought two cheap seats in the upper deck at midfield. After the Ticketmaster 'convenience' charges (and the $5 charge for emailing them to me) my total was $169.

@WNT Fan:

If the tax is on businesses whose gross is more than $3m/yr, a viable gas station pulls in more than that. Don't kid yourself. Business taxes hit DC Residents and no amount of your sophistry can change that.

That said, the baseball stadium is not going away, unfortunately, and likely its success, as much as I hate to say it, is likely to enhance DCU's stadium chances.

Can we please halt the comparisons to the Premiership?

1) Liverpool reserves do not equal DCs reserves. Its a silly comparison.

2) Club prioritization - the big teams in England can 'not care' about cups becaseu they have they have already built their reputation, fan bases and endless revenue streams. Since MLS is trying to do that still as well as earn they're way into more illustrious competitions (Copa Lib) then they would have to prioritize away from the league schedule and what kind of message is that?

Thinking about it, if you want to improve quality at different parts of the roster different strategies are needed. Divide teams into three roughly equal groups of players (1-9, 10-18, 19-28) and the way you improve those players is different.

Players 1-9: The players who are certain to start if healthy. Ways to increase the quality: 1) Another Designated player, 2) Raise the non-DP ceiling, 3) Raise the cap, 4) Raise the international spots allocation, 5) Give out more allocations.

Players 10-18: Players who might finish out the starting team, most frequent subs. 1)Raise the senior roster salary floor, 2) Raise the international spots, 3) More Discoveries, 4)Allow more international loans, 5) Raise the cap.

Players 19-28: Players who are mostly potential and play in reserve games. 1)Raise the Developmental salary, 2)Increase the senior roster spaces, 3)Better reserve league system, 4) Team Academies.

There are piecemiel steps on all of these, but 10-18 and 19-28 should be getting more attention than 1-9 right now.

Perhaps MLS is pushing for more international games because they have already decided to bump up the salary cap in the next CBA. They'll up the minimum pay for all developmental contracts, and--as a bonus--all developmental players get to meet bi-weekly with the Commish at Outback Steakhouse.

I agree with many of the posters that the CCL and the Superliga should be tiered. Have the top four teams, or the top three and the MLS Cup champs, get into the CCL. Then have the next four get into Superliga. Make sure the schedules are cleared for those teams, like this year when DC United has no league games in July because of Superliga. Then maybe down the road have the top finishers in the Superliga get into the Copa Sudamericana, and the top finishers in the CCL get into Copa Libertadores.

Also, when MLS raises the salary cap, teams will have a better chance to compete. Right now Mexico has the advantage.

USA-Argentina:

$292/seat for lower bowl midfield and $195/seat for mezzanine midfield?

For a friendly? WTF?
==========================================

Does anyone remember what the price range was for USA-Argentina @ RFK in '99? I believe the lower end was pretty close to $35 that they're asking for this year's contest, but the most expensive seats were probably closer to $80 or something.

I'm afraid that U.S. Soccer will ever again let a side of Argentina's caliber appear in this area, at RFK, FedEx, or anywhere else, unless the local organizers agree to a price structure similar to that at Giants Stadium on June 8.

Make that "never again."

This has been a fun discussion...

MLS is clearly growing. I think all the international tournaments are great, and provide extra potential for $$ and glory for MLS teams and players. I also want to keep the things that make MLS uniquely American like MLS Cup and the All-Star game. And I still think Open-Cup is important. A more crowded schedule is better for the owners and the fans and ultimately allows owners to put more money back in the teams...

So now owners have to put more money back in the teams. Everyone agrees that developmental contracts are a joke, and the salary cap should be increased across the board, but especially for the lowest paid players. We generally see pretty solid players at the $100K and above range and can even bring in some internationals at that level. Where MLS is really lacking is in keeping exciting American youth players and giving them experience. Montes, who scored the two goals against United for Pachuca is just 20. Fans will be more excited to watch the next rising stars, and MLS should also be able to earn more by selling players on huge transfers to European teams. The tougher schedule will force MLS coaches to play the young guys more often and bring them up faster (e.g. we haven't seen Quavas Kirk yet). The current "developmental" players should be the youth academy players in the future. Maybe pay for their education or something.

I think the league should still focus on keeping parity in the league and not give preference to teams in more tournaments. I do like the idea of a tiered setup suggested above. The more MLS teams in international play, the better.

20k? Wow, it took the O's -years- to go below that magic number...

I'm a baseball fan. That the Os are winning now and nobody is going to those games is hilarious. That franchise has burnt a lot of bridges.

This is a great thread - thanks Goff for starting it so provacatively. This falls in the category of problems that it is good to have - do I want to see my team play more, and perhaps not as well, or less, and perhaps better?

Lets distill some key points. First, while raising the salary cap would be the easy solution, it seems unrealistic given what we know about the league's finances. So what are the alternatives?

Tiering the Super Liga below CONCACAF is a good idea, but leave it to the clubs. If DCU does not want to play both the Super Liga and the CONCACAF cups, let it pass on Super Liga, and give the next club the option. I think one reason MLS has been so thin below the top 11 in the past is because depth has not been necessary. You only need to look at the DCU roster moves this offseason to see that clubs can adapt within the salary cap - we have a lot of depth. For example, we have yet to see Kirk play, and his salary I believe is over $100 K. So not every "reserve" is making $12 k and working on the side.

The most important thing I think for MLS is to prove that we belong in these tournaments. I think that is the league's priority, and I think its the right priority. A couple of things that can be tried are (1) lengthening the season a bit, and (2) shortening the playoff schedule. While I would like to eliminate the playoffs and go to single table, it seems unrealistic. But they can be changed to give far more meaning to the regular season result. As we have all complained about previously on this site, the current playoff home-home format gives no home-field advantage. That could be dramatically changed, and some additional time freed up (probably for the same teams) for other competitions, by going to a single-elimination format, and having only the top six teams in the playoffs, rather than eight, with the top two getting a bye into the second round.

If the O's keep winning people will eventually start to believe and go to the games. But the fanbase has been beat down by 10yrs of losing, one week isn't going to make the difference, especially not with a team that on paper looks bad, in a good division.

Also, everyone hates Angelos, as much as Nats fans hate him, O's fans hate him worse.

WHAT A GAME that Liverpool and Arsenal just played. AMAZING. Liverpool win 4-2, but only in the last five minutes. Arsenal were set to go through on the away too, but they couldn't hang on. There was crazy drama in that game.

If United had received a stadium grant and it had opened simulaneously with the Nats stadium, you can be positive that the first 5 games or so would be sold out (we're assuming the stadium would seat about 25,000)

Roster sizes are big enough (28), but salary limitations leave clubs without the quality to compete over the long term. MLS should be commended for lining up international tournaments for its clubs; now it needs to provide the means to succeed.

Didn't embarrased mention something about salaries this weekend?

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