you forgot to mention how DC has played one more game then the Quakes and how DC is officially the worst team in the league!

Streamers enveloping the CK taker was cute at first, when it was serendipitous, but as a calculated activity it is tiresome and intrudes into the game. Gotta stop it.

Bah! Nonsense, Goff. You're losing your objectivity when you start playing hypotheticals; they've been doing it for nearly two years with nary a suggestion of anything heavier than a plastic cup hitting the pitch, and yet you assume that someone will eventually take that as license to chuck keys?

Hate to break it to you, but banning streamers or tossing anything else hasn't stopped that in other countries. In fact, you're a hell of a lot more likely to be hit with keys in a British stadium, where there's zero tolerance for tossing anything, than at BMO, where they have a relatively benign alternative.

As for interfering with play, teams can already be penalized for delaying the game; if refs were worried, they already have jurisdiction to clamp down on it.

Is it just me, or does everyone keep hitting refresh oin the Soccer Insider expecting to see "Tom Soehn Fired"?

Anywho, I agree that the streamers are distracting but I think they are harmless. I don't think anything should be done until a battery or bottle is thrown. They (TFC fans) have shown that they can do that responsibly. Until a Guatamalan type event occurs, I think they are fine as annoying as it is.

Current state of DCU is a result of Payne's poor decisions and mismanagement.

Absolutely agree with Goff's opinion on the streamers. In Garber's response to Wilbon's critisism, he claim that it is not an issue as long as it doesn't interfere with the play. Anyone watching a corner being taken by the visiting team at BMO can clearly see that it is a problem. Why is this being allowed to continue?

No way, Goff, we need to reproduce the worldwide game in every aspect! This includes:

1. Streamers
2. Hooligans in stands fighting each other
3. People getting trampled and crushed
4. People getting shot

Otherwise we'll have no legitimacy as a real futbol league!

As for the Houston game, ugh...poor Bobby...

D.C. United is recognized as the league's premier club because of it's success, dating back to 1996. Kevin Payne has been in charge of the club since Day 1.

There has to be a connection.

I understand the "what have you done for me lately" attitude. We're fans, and we want our team to win all the time. But it's not going to happen.

MLS is a marathon, not a sprint. I'll grumble at every loss and poor peformance, but I'm reserving my "he's gotta go" decision until season's end.

Yeah Dan, that's a logical leap: from pieces of ribbon to skinheads beating the hell out of each other.

No reactionism here, hardly. Jeez, for once a U.S. pro league doesn't react like a bunch of children scared of a civil suit, and the public is now so brainwashed into believing that safety to the point of absurdity is the same thing as civility and sportsmanship that they don't even notice.

Steven, don't sell San Jose short. They have more points than us *and* a game in hand.

Thx,

Jay!

I agree, what TFC is doing is bad for the league. The MLS should focus on mimicking the EPL. I do think streamers, smoke, etc are appropriate after goals, a victory, etc.

There are valid arguments against hurling streamers. But the notion that it's dangerous, because allowing people to throw obviously harmless streamers might lead to people throwing dangerous projectiles, is unsupportable nonsense.

------

Bah! Nonsense, Goff. You're losing your objectivity when you start playing hypotheticals; they've been doing it for nearly two years with nary a suggestion of anything heavier than a plastic cup hitting the pitch, and yet you assume that someone will eventually take that as license to chuck keys?

Hate to break it to you, but banning streamers or tossing anything else hasn't stopped that in other countries. In fact, you're a hell of a lot more likely to be hit with keys in a British stadium, where there's zero tolerance for tossing anything, than at BMO, where they have a relatively benign alternative.

As for interfering with play, teams can already be penalized for delaying the game; if refs were worried, they already have jurisdiction to clamp down on it.

Posted by: jloome | May 23, 2008 9:30 AM
-------

Got to agree with jloome here.

Yeah Dan, that's a logical leap: from pieces of ribbon to skinheads beating the hell out of each other.

No reactionism here, hardly. Jeez, for once a U.S. pro league doesn't react like a bunch of children scared of a civil suit, and the public is now so brainwashed into believing that safety to the point of absurdity is the same thing as civility and sportsmanship that they don't even notice.

Posted by: | May 23, 2008 9:53 AM

Yet you'd be surprised, maybe even horrified, by how many MLS fans actually would welcome those things. Some of them simply becuase that is what they see in other leagues.

-----
acts that physically interfere with play and possibly risk injury to a player cannot continue.
-----

Goff, if you're telling that to MLS, you may want to tell that to MLB as well.

You can't stop fans from trying to catch baseballs in fair territory (or foul territory that an MLB player can reach), so it seems strange to what to prohibit MLS fans from having some safe/harmless fun.

Once it turns unsafe or starts to cause real harm (which a few seconds delay during a restart does not do), then worry about prohibiting the streamers during play.

Currently, no harm no foul, in my opinion.

Streamers enveloping the CK taker was cute at first, when it was serendipitous, but as a calculated activity it is tiresome and intrudes into the game. Gotta stop it.

Posted by: JkR | May 23, 2008 9:24 AM

Reminds me of the Florida Panthers and their plastic rats. I'm betting after another year of this the league will finally clamp down just like it took the NHL a few seasons to do soemthing (I think after a player got bloodied by being hit by one of the thrown objects)

I don't mind the streamers so much. Course, it's not me down there taking a corner.

My question, how long have Payne and Kaspar been with the team? If they've been around since '96 then I'd say no way you can lay this poor start at their feet. This team has been way too successful through multiple coaching staff changes for the current situation to be chalked up to talent acquisition and contract management. Now, I'm willing to give Soehn his time, but if I'm still looking to make changes at season's end (or even mid-season) that's where I would start.

I hope Pareja stays with the U-17s we need someone who actually knows how to dribble and control the ball teaching those kids.

With so many new players, DC United is essentially an expansion team too. Yes, it was Payne's decision on most of the turnover, but he also expects his coaching staff and players to be able to get it together, so to speak.

I think that '08 United is similar to that of the '96 United. Unfortunately, the rest of the league doesn't have the same learning curve to get over.

In the end, United may suffer through the MLS season, but they may end up doing very well in the '08/'09 Champions League.

San Jose played some good attacking MLS soccer last night. Jackson is a speedy dude and they deserved that win. With that said, I am glad they won so the reality of DC in the basement will hit the FO that much harder and prompt them to...

FIRE SOEHN!!!
FIRE SOEHN!!!
FIRE SOEHN!!!
FIRE SOEHN!!!
FIRE SOEHN!!!
FIRE SOEHN!!!
FIRE SOEHN!!!
FIRE SOEHN!!!
FIRE SOEHN!!!
FIRE SOEHN!!!
FIRE SOEHN!!!
FIRE SOEHN!!!

Did you guys watch the game on Wednesday? And see solid, unrolled spools or streamers hitting gallardo in the calves during the run-up to take a corner?

And even though they're light, they still have tensile strength and you can see people getting their feet tangled in them.

I think players should just refuse to take a corner until the ref's assistant and the ref can stop the interference with play.

The fact that we have been passed by San Jose, who has a strikeforce that would not be out of place in my oft-mentioned indoor league, is depressing. I guess that's what you get when you let in over 2 goals per game.

moreno4prez:

Part of me thinks that Soehn will lose his job if we lose Saturday. The other part of me remembers that Rongen and Hudson were allowed to finish the season, even when it was clear that their respective teams had little chance of even making the playoffs. Payne's M.O. includes patience, but with McFarlane and Chang in charge, who knows how long he has to turn it around.

Yeah streamers are great. Why don't we bring them down to a Caps or Wizards game at Verizon and throw them on the rink/court.

Wilbon is right, it's strictly bush league. Beyond getting hurt (a valid concern), it is physically interfering with the game, different from aurally or visually. I've got no problem banning stupid boom sticks (or Jumbotrons or canned music) either, but at least they don't interfere with the physical action of the game.

A more serious safety issue at BMO is the concrete apron. Gallardo and Dicchio both took bad spills Wednesday. That's insane. Someone is going to get badly hurt there before too long.

I don't think that you can say that streamers are dangerous, or that they would necessarily lead to the hurling of heavier projectiles. After all, if you're going to throw a beer bottle or a rock, you're dumb enough to do it without any crepe paper encouragement.

That said, anyone who watches a game played up on the Canadians' plastic carpet can see that opposing players are clearly being hassled into shanking corner kicks. The process of untangling their legs and clearing the area around the ball wastes time and is an unnecessary distraction.

Streamers during corner kicks might be a cheeky TFC calling card, but I wonder if the league would be as forgiving to DCU fans throwing cups of water (or, more realistically, cheap beer) or Chicago fans throwing buckets of confetti.

Its clear that the purpose of those streamers is to negatively affect the play of TFC's opponents by interfering with the game on the field. That goes above and beyond an acceptable home field advantage.

Old WNT Fan: you said a mouthful on the concrete apron. I was thinking the same thing sitting there and watching. My heart was in my throat when Gallardo took his spill.

Oh, sure, side with Wilbon.... just because you want to get on PTI...

Just kidding. I agree it's a slippery slope. But, I still think it's kind of funny and unique to our game. I think it's only a matter of time before some idiot throws something at a player taking a corner anyway, so maybe it's better that it be a streamer rather than a bottle.

Have you heard anything about LA going after Henry? How come they get the chance? MLS is really trying to build a Cosmos-esque team on the West Coast, isn't it.

"I'm not going to go as far as Wilbon and call it minor league, but acts that physically interfere with play and possibly risk injury to a player cannot continue."

I'd love to see nets strung up in those corners. Streamers have always been a part of MLS supporters groups, but if TFC fans can't influence results with sheer passion, they shouldn't be allowed to do it with crepe paper streamers hitting the players, the ball, or its flight path.

The TFC streamers nonsense should be stopped. It's not an issue of injury, of course it doesn't hurt physically, but it's an interference with the play of the game. Would it be okay if they waved a giant flag right over the corner spot during a corner kick? I mean, it won't injure the player, so why not?

I see it as an interference with play, and it adds nothing to the atmosphere of the game (except for the TFC fans who are giggling uncontrollably when they do it. Hee hee hee.)

I'd like to see a player taking at corner in Toronto to pick up one of the unrolled streamers and chuck it back at the fans... ain't gonna happen, but it'd be a sight!
I don't mind the streamers so much, but I think it's kinda silly (and it does interfere with play). I would rather not see them thrown at players. Last year I was at a Carolina USL game and they had the streamer thing there as well. They would throw it at the goalie though.

Why, oh, why can't DCU start winning so we can talk about other things?

San Jo's strikers were firing away and apparently they have been all season.
Joe Cannon is solid. Wish we had a goalie that was solid. Maybe we do?
What's his names goal(the first one) was sick. I wonder if Dichio's goal is gonna be up for goal of the week...
Last nights game was surprisingly fun to watch especially after Ching put one in and they were pushing for the draw. The flyin' Hawaiian came real close with his head right at the end.

i agree with goff on the no streamers during the game idea. i said this to my wife during the game. i, too, saw the unrolled streamers and they have the potential to carry keys, rocks, etc. now i don't think that TFC fans are malicious, but it only takes one bad egg to spoil the bunch. we shouldn't agree to wait until someone gets hurts, that's silly.

I'd say the negative impact of streamers on the visiting team is less then the negative impact of the crowd noise at the loudest NFL stadiums, where crowds often induce false starts on critical plays.

It's not like we score from CK's anyhow...

during the telecast on Wednesday, Rongen or the other guy brought up the point that the streamers could eventually end up hurting TFC because if a team has a lead on them, and is taking a corner, they will get to waste extra time clearing off the streamers. And echoing a previous comment, I too would like to see a player simply refuse to kick until the area is cleared. It seems to me that an official would have a hard time booking a player for time wasting when he doesn't have an acceptable area to kick from. A situation like that may force the League to make an official ruling on "fan interference".

How about police in body armour and shields to protect the CK taker?

When any team has as much turn over as United has had this past off season, there does take some time to get into the rhythm with your other players.

Weds. game, we should have come away with a tie, 0-0, or possibly we might have won the game. I think some of the players were frustrated and had no confidence in the team/certain players *cough*Wells*cough. It was a fluke thing, but the team did come together and played stronger than before.

I do believe there are some communication issues, maybe due to language differences, but that should not be an excuse.

We have a lot of talent on the team, but maybe, just maybe, our bench is not as strong as we would like for it to be.

"You can't stop fans from trying to catch baseballs in fair territory (or foul territory that an MLB player can reach), so it seems strange to what to prohibit MLS fans from having some safe/harmless fun."

I don't see the parallel between a fan reaching into fair or foul territory and several of them throwing objects.

Have fans tried this "tactic" on TFC players when they are on the road?

I just noted the mention of Gallardo's fall on that slippery stuff. He SLAMMED hard man! Very sketchy, never mind the streamers fix whatever that booby trap is!
After reading about the guy dying after hitting the wall I have payed alot more attention to the danger just off the field.
Reminded me of walking down a wet loading dock ramp in Italian mountain biking shoes, and busting my ass and getting super dirty back in the day.
Gallardo's tougher than we think.

For this weekend's game at RFK, I suggest we:
1) Find all of the Bryan Adams cassette tapes we can
2) Pull the tape out of all of the cases
3) Throw the tape at TFC players taking corner kicks

This way, we punish TFC and the nation of Canada for giving us Bryan Adams.

The scary thing is if a player does get hurt, what are the repercussions? If I were the Leaque, I'd have a zero tolerance rule.

If a player or referee ('cause they're more likely to get targeted) get hit by an object thrown from the stands, the home team loses the game via forfeit and the next home game must be played in an empty stadium.

That would totally suck for the players and fans, but that's what I would do.

why do people make the distinction that as long as it's just streamers and not batteries or bags of piss it's ok? it still interferes with the play.

what if i brought a super soaker water gun and shot it at a player right when they run up to take a kick? i mean, it's just water!! they spray water all over themselves in the same way any time a trainer brings water bottles on to the field!

I gotta give NE credit they have certainly been scouting these youth tournaments and going after the best players they can get their hands on (Mansally, Nyassi and now Welcome). Welcome was a beast during the CONCACAF Olympic qualies.

Does United even send scouts? It seems that aside from the players that have sort of geographically fallen into our laps (Freddy, Bobby, Tino, Beninho and Chris Albright) United hasn't gone after a lot of young stars, Mapp is the only one that comes to mind.

One thing that frustrates me about our reserve system is that for the most part we have a bunch of scrubs that will never amount to anything playing there. We've only had what 1 or 2 players graduate up to the senior team. So why not take a chance on bringing some youth stars from overseas (Africa, Asia, Central America still offer good values from the U-17 and U-20 levels) and develop those guys for the future? If they fail it isn't any worse than what we have now, but at least they have an upside to speak of.

The reserve team should be filled with guys with actual potential so that you can reload rather than rebuild.

Streamers during corner kicks might be a cheeky TFC calling card, but I wonder if the league would be as forgiving to DCU fans throwing cups of water (or, more realistically, cheap beer)

Posted by: Matt In Silver Spring | May 23, 2008 10:21 AM
-----------------------------------------------

Where at RFK is this cheap beer you speak of?

*Celtic wrapped up a third consecutive Scottish league title, edging out Rangers. Watch the team bus roll back to Celtic Park:

---

Indeed. Hail! Hail! Wearing my hoops shirt around the office today. Gotta love casual Fridays. :)

what if i brought a super soaker water gun and shot it at a player right when they run up to take a kick? i mean, it's just water!! they spray water all over themselves in the same way any time a trainer brings water bottles on to the field!

Posted by: pat | May 23, 2008 10:51 AM
---------------------------------------------

But that's magic water!

"Sorry, but I agree with Post columnist/TV pundit Michael Wilbon on this one. Yes, I find it fun and unique, but inevitably someone is going to include a bottle in their handful of streamers (intentionally or not) and an opposing player is going to take a knock on the noggin."

OK Miss Manners....

This post clearly shows that Goff has indeed "Jumped The Shark".

The streamers, while they ticked me off a bit on Wed. (although my temper could very well have been directly caused by the team playing with the VW logo on their chest), are still not as big a deal as people are making it out to be. Escalation? Anything can escalate to a dangerous point. Soccer is associated with hooliganism and rioting, so I suppose to prevent that from happening here in the good 'ol US (where fans of other sports are not violent) we should just ban soccer altogether. Heck, while we're at it there is a chance that the Earth could be hit by an asteriod or some other rogue space debris - I say we find a way to make the Earth stand still to reduce such an incident. Whether you allow streamers or not will not stop a determined idiot from throwing something dangerous at a player, so the argument for escalation is rather thin in this case.

On the issue of the image of the league? I'll take streamers any day over a big fat empty stadium. Plus, I am not an advocate of having all American sports look and feel the same way.

On the Payne hate? Maybe I'm missing something here, but I just don't get it. This team that we call inept (and one can make a very good case for that) is still good enough to earn more draws than loses. It's not like Payne went out and bought a varsity team. There is some talent there, in fact enough talent to not be dead last in the league. Do we need better players? Heck ya, but so does Man U, Chelsea, Real Madrid and evry other team in the world. [To all those selective readers: I am naming those teams to make a point, not to equate any MLS team to any of those great teams.] My point is everyone wants to imrpove their side. Sometimes it works and sometimes it does not. Heck, even us FIFA '08 fans know how cheesey the game gets when you upset the chemistry of a side by introducing a new player (stupid AI). We are hurting in certain positions and have been stubborn in the way we build our team (hate the draft, Agentine man crushes, etc.) Yeah I'll lay that at the FO's feet, but this is the same FO that built some highly respected teams that have won championships and competed formidably in MLS at in international tournaments. In fact this very side beat the regional Champs and gave them a run for their money away in Mexico. Yup, you gotta hate that evil Payne.

Soehn is the problem, any way you cut it. We wanted CCC really bad this year. We lost it and he just never seemed to get these guys right afterwards. I don't hate Soehn personally, heck I don't even know the guy. But we have to take a good strong look at the state of this team now, compared to just a few months ago. The pieces are there (we could use better pieces, yes, but we have pieces nonetheless) and it's Soehn's job to make them work, and he has not, in my humble opinion.

Streamers for celebration, sure.

Streamers that are intended to distract or cause disruption of play, no.

There's a big difference in the posts that claim that streamers are thrown "all over the world" (true) and "all over the world they are thrown at corner kick takers" (false).

For all the great stuff the Toronto fans have brought, the heads of the supporter's clubs should act more responsibly.

Streamers during corner kicks might be a cheeky TFC calling card, but I wonder if the league would be as forgiving to DCU fans throwing cups of water (or, more realistically, cheap beer)

Posted by: Matt In Silver Spring | May 23, 2008 10:21 AM
-------------------------------------------

Where at RFK is this cheap beer you speak of?

Posted by: edgeonyou | May 23, 2008 10:57 AM
-------------------------------------------

Ha ha. Perhaps I should rephrase: low quality beer.

"Don't try to ban streamers, that's impossible. Instead seek out the truth. And then you will realize, there are no streamers."

"

Streamers for celebration, sure.

Streamers that are intended to distract or cause disruption of play, no.

There's a big difference in the posts that claim that streamers are thrown "all over the world" (true) and "all over the world they are thrown at corner kick takers" (false).

For all the great stuff the Toronto fans have brought, the heads of the supporter's clubs should act more responsibly."

BS: If anything the heads of the other leagues supporters clubs should step it up a notch.

ITS CALLED HOME FIELD ADVANTAGE. YOU KNOW THE SAME CRAP THAT HAPPENS TO UNITED WHEN THEY GO SOUTH OF THE BORDER.

We all need to step it up and stop complaining like a bunch of little girls.

Come on Joe Doc. If you wanted to disrupt the TFC players, *play* Bryan Adams music while they're taking the corner kicks - especially the movie themes.

We are gonna throw Crabs with streamers attached to them at the Toronto players this weekend during corner kicks!!!

why do people make the distinction that as long as it's just streamers and not batteries or bags of piss it's ok?
___________________________________________

Is this a serious question?

"Have you heard anything about LA going after Henry? How come they get the chance?"

Because no one else is being bold enough to challenge MLS rules.

"MLS is really trying to build a Cosmos-esque team on the West Coast, isn't it."

Probably but there is no reason other than money and Henry's interest that would prevent DC United from going after him

Henry > Emilio

BMO feild is a joke.
1. Plastic grass sukcs no matter what it's called-
Try slide tackling on that stuff on a hot summer day.....ouch. Or how it looked like they were playing on wet pavement on Wednesday. Idiotic.
2. Streamers are ridiculous and childish- I don't care what they do anywhere else in the world. MLS has no need for interfernce in the game. Let me throw a streamer at a batter as a fastball comes at him? Let me throw a streamer at a wide reciever as he goes for a catch in the endzone? Wake-up people!
3. Pavement around a feild is dangerous- Anyone see Gallardo bounce of that pavement after he was pushed by the TFC player. What moron had that idea?

Please MLS, remove TFC and BMO from hosting any future games. It's a joke.
(so is our season so far).

I've given a lot of thought to the awful season and I've concluded what's really wrong are my expectations. It was ridiculous to think that we could a new GK, new central defenders, a new mid field that presents a new way of managing a game and expect everything to come together immediately. Granted, there is no excuse for being in last place, but I think I should have recognized the season for what it is. A transition to a new team playing a new type of game.

Worst of all, I realized I gave in to my inner Alexi Lalas and thought Lot's of Foreign signings = Good. The league has developed beyond that. Which is a good thing.

So I for one am not going to call for anyone's firing unless we keep trying to do the same loosing thing, only harder. So long as they keep mixing it up and trying to find that right blend then I'll chalk it up to a rebuild.

"Is this a serious question?

Posted by: | May 23, 2008 11:08 AM "

yes, when they are throwing unrolled spools of streamers as they did on wednesday, it's a serious question

OT, two soccer-related documentaries are playing at the AFI Silverdocs festival in Silver Spring next month:

"Football Under Cover" is about the Iranian women's national team, and screens with the short doc, "Kick Like a Girl" about a Utah youth team:
http://www.silverdocs.com/festival/films/2008/football-under-cover/

"Kicking It" is about the Homeless World Cup held in South Africa in 2006:
http://www.silverdocs.com/festival/films/2008/kicking-it/

Get your tickets soon!

"Don't try to ban streamers, that's impossible. Instead seek out the truth. And then you will realize, there are no streamers."

Ha!

Post of the (very boring) thread.

"A more serious safety issue at BMO is the concrete apron. Gallardo and Dicchio both took bad spills Wednesday. That's insane. Someone is going to get badly hurt there before too long."
-Old WNT Fan

REPPED. i couldn't believe that when i saw it. who's stupid idea was this???

soehn probably should be gone, but not sure who a good alternative would be. i'd be totally down with carlos quiroz, but i doubt he'd do it...

i think streamers should be allowed in pregame, after goals, and postgame, but not corners or run of play. homefield advantage is all well and good, but that is truly detrimental to the game and against the spirit of fair play.

Bravo, Goff. But I expect nothing less than the best from you. Still, you leave out the most important reason - if grown men and women have to resort to such juvenile behavior, they shouldn't be admired.

Throwing streamers at a player is so junior high.

For this weekend's game at RFK, I suggest we:
1) Find all of the Bryan Adams cassette tapes we can
2) Pull the tape out of all of the cases
3) Throw the tape at TFC players taking corner kicks

This way, we punish TFC and the nation of Canada for giving us Bryan Adams.

Posted by: Joe Doc | May 23, 2008 10:50 AM

***

Now, now, the Canadian government has apologized for Bryan Adams on several occasions!

Soehn is the problem, any way you cut it. We wanted CCC really bad this year. We lost it and he just never seemed to get these guys right afterwards. I don't hate Soehn personally, heck I don't even know the guy. But we have to take a good strong look at the state of this team now, compared to just a few months ago. The pieces are there (we could use better pieces, yes, but we have pieces nonetheless) and it's Soehn's job to make them work, and he has not, in my humble opinion.

Posted by: Kosh | May 23, 2008 11:01 AM

----

Well said. While not the only problem right now, I have long felt that Soehn is just plain a bad game day coach. Period. And he is worse the higher the stakes are, which is why he has failed so spectacularly in both the international tournaments and the playoffs last year. Soehn is conservative in his tactics to begin with, which is bad enough because it does not fit United's traditional style of play. But he gets even worse in the big games. Take the CCC for example. When we went down to Pachuca, he put in a game plan based on fear of altitude and lack of fitness and frankly we got the result we deserved. It was appalling to watch us cower like that against a team we had no reason to fear. Last year, at Chivas, same thing. I lay the blame for the CCC collapses squarely at Soehn's feet. He didn't prepare the team adequately to play (fitness) and didn't inculcate the correct mentality amongst the players. Granted, we pulled one back at home vs. Pachuca, but it was too little too late. All that did was prove this group of players could play with the best, if properly motivated. Since then that has not happened and that again falls at the coach's feet.

Soehn must go. Sooner, not later.

Way off topic, but I noticed the link to something called the Homeless World Cup. First time I've heard of it.

This isn't a soccer competition made up of homeless people, is it?

***

Now, now, the Canadian government has apologized for Bryan Adams on several occasions!

Posted by: EdTheRed | May 23, 2008 11:23 AM

I'm holding out on them apologizing for Celine Dion before I can forgive them

Even though the streamers are cheesy and I've tired of them, it really annoys me that everyone is so reactionary in response to them.

The slippery slope argument is flawed shouldn't be used in rational discourse.

The point of homefield advantage is that the players don't play in a vaccum. Nobody has a problem with the crowds at LSU or OSU being so loud that the offense can't hear and thus jump off-sides, that is the crowd having a very real impact on the game yet it is also one of the most cherished aspects of american football.

"they will get to waste extra time clearing off the streamers"

I keep wondering: why doesn't a player taking a corner kick wait until the streamer supply is exhausted before trying to put the ball into play?

I know they have a lot of streamers, but all it would take is one visiting player doing nothing for five or ten minutes to get this nonsense to stop. ESPECIALLY if the away team has a one goal lead late in the game.

I'd love to see it happen, and I hope the refs would back the players who don't want fans to interfere with their corner kicks, and not caution an away player for "time wasting."

"Kicking It" is about the Homeless World Cup held in South Africa in 2006:
http://www.silverdocs.com/festival/films/2008/kicking-it/

Posted by: edgeonyou | May 23, 2008 11:18 AM

DC connection with this movie, Caps owner Ted Leonsis is the producer.

Palermo got a hat-trick last night against Atlas, 3-0, 5-2 on aggregate with Boca going through to semis. Seems he still hasn't slowed down yet at 34, so going after him is still a good idea.

Kosh,

I absolutely agree that Soehn needs to be replaced. However, the front office HAS to receive some of the blame for some boneheaded personnel moves.

At the time, Emilio was a good buy. Couldn't predict he would turn into Homer Simpson. However, he received one pay rais over the summer. Then a SECOND RAISE, plus DP status after playing like a dead fish.

The is front office stupidity.

The got rid of Gomez over guaranteed years. Fine. But at least accept that is was a bad move in the end.

Last year, they ditched Petke - an underrated and very reliable central defender (and a nice big target for set pieces) supposedly because he cost too much. The central defense was not the same there after...as evidence by constant tinkering in central defense. Who did they replace him with? An older, shorter, slower, less effective, and perhaps more expensive defender in Greg Vanny. They ditched Vanney in an era of David Stokes and Ezra Hendrickson. That tells you something.

They have been very quick to ditch time-tested players with a recent drop in form such as Carroll or Kovalenko, while bending over backwards to import the "futbol" equivalent of empty-calorie junk food: Donnet, Filomeno, to name the worst offenders.

Just since 2004, the laundry list of failed import players is nauseatingly long (SSejjemba, Kpene, Martins, Kuffor, Monteiro, Quintanilla, Casal, Guppy, Addlery, deRoux, even Erpen, etc.)

In all honesty, of all their "discoveries" down south or elsewhere are completely unimpressive. Aside from Gomez, the only quality guy they "discovered" arguably is Martinez - (Gallardo was internationally well known and is merely a matter of agents working contracts as opposed to finding some diamond in the rough).

Every year, it seems, the coaching and front office staffs go somewhere and come back from the ends of the earth dragging a human highlight reel from the Patagonian Third Division. It has worked ONCE for sure. Not exacly a great track record.

The responsibility for some of the dubious (and admittedly frugal, or should I say cheap) personnel moves fall squarely on Kevin Paine and his minions.

"Nobody has a problem with the crowds at LSU or OSU being so loud that the offense can't hear and thus jump off-sides"

Forgive me for being pedantic: not offsides in Gridball, really, but false start. Home fans quiet down when their team has the ball.

Anyhow, there are tactics that allow football teams to play unhampered by crowd noise. A well-coached offensive line can operate perfectly well with a silent count. In fact, when a football offense moves the chains despite deafening crowd noise, it often changes the momentum of the game.

But contrary-wise, there is no "tactic" or coaching that would allow a player's legs not to get caught up in the streamer, or would leave his view of the field clear from garbage, or most imporantly would allow a ball to travel through a mass of streamers without having a slight course change at the beginning of the flight path. THAT is the difference.

I'm all for spectacle, but this is akin to a massive smoke bomb that fills the entire corner with impenetrable fog for the sole sake of disrupting the on-field play.

Noise is categorically different from interfering with a player's sight, or, worse, physically interfereing with the game.

pat - I'm sure if you ask any of the players being bombarded with streamers if it would be a lot less OK if they were bombarded with bags of urine or batteries, they would say it is, in fact, a LOT less OK.

I see plenty of very good arguments for not allowing the fans to throw streamers. But this "safety" argument is silly. I could just as easily support an argument that allowing drunken fans to throw streamers gives them a safe outlet for their aggression, and by taking that away, you're incrasing the risk that they'll throw whatever else they can get their hands on.

That argument would be pretty silly, but no more so than the safety argument.

correction above:

They ditched **PETKE** in an era of David Stokes and Ezra Hendrickson. That tells you something.

I am an idiot.

Safety isn't really the issue as far as I'm concerned. The issues are (1) vision of the playing field is categorically protected from external factors in all sports, while hearing (except in tennis or golf) is not, and (2) hitting the ball or a player with a physical object during the run of play is not only not sporting, it is forbidden as a rule.

I agree, what TFC is doing is bad for the league. The MLS should focus on mimicking the EPL. I do think streamers, smoke, etc are appropriate after goals, a victory, etc.

Posted by: Cole | May 23, 2008 10:00 AM

WTF? The EPL!? THey mimick the No.Fun.League and are known for having the worst atmosphere of any top flight league in Europe.

Oh and streamers and smoke regardless of when and where are banned from both.

Mastodon Juan - Silent counts help, but it is nonehteless a statistical fact that stadiums like Qwest Field in Seattle produce more false starts than stadiums with less crowd noise.

Palermo doesn't slow down when he is at Boca, but he really underperforms for any other squad including the Argentine squad.

However, with Emilio's disappearing act this season I guess it couldn't hurt.

on the Oscar Pareja story, the U-18s are in Portugal right now and he's not with them. does that mean anything? probably not, but still...

Yes, it's a statistical fact, but it's tactically possible to get around it. It's a controllable variable.

Physical interference with play is NOT allowed, whether it interferes the visual field or the actual physical objects/players on the field.

Here's an analogy: imagine a fan had a horn that was so powerful and low-frequency that the soundwave moved a football from its trajectory, and he blew the horn every time an opposing quarterback threw the ball. It wouldn't HURT anyone, but it would make passing the ball essentially impossible. That, and not crowd noise, is what the streamers are like.

Way to drink the company Kool-Aid, Goff.

I agree, they have to cut out the streamers during play, and that includes corners. Ushers at BMO need to start taking people out of the game and season tickets need to be pulled.

But let's not miss the quick and easy solution here. Add hockey style dasher boards (maybe taller than theirs) in the corners and the players taking the corners will be able to get on with it. The odd streamer during play isn't the heart of the problem.

Oh and FIRE SOEHN!

Or laser pointers-- NOT allowed.

"a statistical fact"

:-) If it were a fact, you wouldn't need statistics.

If you let fans throw streamers, pretty soon they'll be throwing seat cushions.

"I'm all for spectacle, but this is akin to a massive smoke bomb that fills the entire corner with impenetrable fog for the sole sake of disrupting the on-field play."

Thanks for the suggestion, now we know what a proper DC United response should be.

Payne is on the downward spiral, has been, and now so is the team.

FO must take accountability - do the right thing.

Too easy to blame players - too easy to blame coach.

Payne - hear us calling - go, just go

"I see plenty of very good arguments for not allowing the fans to throw streamers. But this "safety" argument is silly. I could just as easily support an argument that allowing drunken fans to throw streamers gives them a safe outlet for their aggression, and by taking that away, you're incrasing the risk that they'll throw whatever else they can get their hands on.

who cares what the object is that is thrown? either ways it's a problem.
That argument would be pretty silly, but no more so than the safety argument.

Posted by: JDO | May 23, 2008 11:33 AM "

the argument i have made several times in this comments section is that it interferes with play, i havent mentioned anything about safety once.

again, during closeups of gallardo running up to take corners on wednesday, they clearly showed him getting hit in the calves with unrolled streamer spools. you don't think getting hit with a solid hunk of anything in the leg as you plant your foot would throw off your ability to take a precision corner?

oops on my last post i accidentally put some of my text in what i quoted. stupid little comments box. this is my text

"who cares what the object is that is thrown? either ways it's a problem."

I don't think that you can say that streamers are dangerous, or that they would necessarily lead to the hurling of heavier projectiles. After all, if you're going to throw a beer bottle or a rock, you're dumb enough to do it without any crepe paper encouragement.

That said, anyone who watches a game played up on the Canadians' plastic carpet can see that opposing players are clearly being hassled into shanking corner kicks. The process of untangling their legs and clearing the area around the ball wastes time and is an unnecessary distraction.

Streamers during corner kicks might be a cheeky TFC calling card, but I wonder if the league would be as forgiving to DCU fans throwing cups of water (or, more realistically, cheap beer) or Chicago fans throwing buckets of confetti.

Its clear that the purpose of those streamers is to negatively affect the play of TFC's opponents by interfering with the game on the field. That goes above and beyond an acceptable home field advantage.

Posted by: Matt In Silver Spring | May 23, 2008 10:21 AM

-------------

Amen. Very well said.

yes, where would we be without juvenile, drunk fans with low IQs yelling obsenities and ruining it for all the other fans who actually grew up after college? Ah, the days when you got your ass thrown out of a stadium for throwing anything onto a playing field.....we can't have that now, can we? Let's keep lowering the bar for the low lifes!

"A more serious safety issue at BMO is the concrete apron. Gallardo and Dicchio both took bad spills Wednesday. That's insane. Someone is going to get badly hurt there before too long."
-Old WNT Fan

REPPED. i couldn't believe that when i saw it. who's stupid idea was this???

Posted by: dfunkt | May 23, 2008 11:22 AM
----

I've been on the plastic pitch and there are some things I'd like to point out:
1) It's more even than any grass that would be able to grow here at a resonable cost yet still have the facility available to public rentals (yes, the city owns BMO and public rentals pay for some of it, this part was non-negotiable) Slide tackles are NOT like on astro turf period.
2) The apron is not bare concrete. There is a black rubber-like top which does get slippery when wet and this has been identified to staff at BMO. Both crashes were dangerous looking but the ads they ran into were flimsy plastic. Regardless, the black crap has to go.

I personally like streamers during celebration ONLY. No player should be physically affected by item regardless of it's relatively low potential for causing injury.

Mastodon Juan - I suppose I kind of see your point, but I still don't agree. It's not as if teams can institute tactical adjustments and solve the problem. The fact that Seahawks Stadium produces more false starts than any other stadium clearly shows that you can achieve the exact same end result from noise as you do from streamers.

In fact, I'd argue that I've seen more of a game changing impact from noise-induced false starts on critical 4th quarter plays at Qwest than I have from streamers on corners at BMO, (though that's not quite a fair conmparison because I've seen more Seahawks home games than Toronto FC home games). And keep in mind, the noise level increases in direct proportion to the importance of the play.

the argument i have made several times in this comments section is that it interferes with play, i havent mentioned anything about safety once.

again, during closeups of gallardo running up to take corners on wednesday, they clearly showed him getting hit in the calves with unrolled streamer spools. you don't think getting hit with a solid hunk of anything in the leg as you plant your foot would throw off your ability to take a precision corner?

Posted by: pat | May 23, 2008 11:51 AM

I can see it now...

Beckham lining up for the corner; as he strides into it an unfurled streamer roll lands where he is about to plant; he steps on it; ankle rolls...SNAPS...down in agony career over, MLS embarrased and touted as a Mickey Mouse league all over the world.

Two days later Garber says I voted for streamers before I voted against the streamers.

If ten yards are required for the other team's players, shouldn't ten yards be required for the fans' streamers? Problem solved.

Payne - hear ME AND ONLY ME calling - go, just go

Posted by: SlopingFarDown | May 23, 2008 11:51 AM

FYP!

The responsibility for some of the dubious (and admittedly frugal, or should I say cheap) personnel moves fall squarely on Kevin Paine and his minions.

Posted by: Erick | May 23, 2008 11:32 AM

On a day when most posters obviously left their logic behind in departing for a four-day weekend, finally someone provides understanding and reason.

pat - fair enough about the safety. I just assumed your "batteries" comment was refering to the clear physical danger that comes with urling baterries at players.

Of course you're right that crowd noise has an affect on play. I never disputed that.

But perfect execution makes crowd noise a moot point.

On the other hand, nothing a player can do in taking a corner kick-- no executed action at all-- will prevent the force of a thrown streamer from changing the course of the ball.

Throwing physical objects at an ongoing play is categorically different from crowd noise. One admits of the possibility of an altered outcome; the other guarantees it.

I'm starting a new United fan club:

Streaming Eagles.

The challenge is we have to toss the streamers from the M section of RFK.

Who's with me?

Are you saying that streamers are the gateway holiganisms?

Last year, they ditched Petke - an underrated and very reliable central defender (and a nice big target for set pieces) supposedly because he cost too much. The central defense was not the same there after...as evidence by constant tinkering in central defense. Who did they replace him with? An older, shorter, slower, less effective, and perhaps more expensive defender in Greg Vanny. They ditched Vanney in an era of David Stokes and Ezra Hendrickson. That tells you something.

Just since 2004, the laundry list of failed import players is nauseatingly long (SSejjemba, Kpene, Martins, Kuffor, Monteiro, Quintanilla, Casal, Guppy, Addlery, deRoux, even Erpen, etc.)

In all honesty, of all their "discoveries" down south or elsewhere are completely unimpressive. Aside from Gomez, the only quality guy they "discovered" arguably is Martinez - (Gallardo was internationally well known and is merely a matter of agents working contracts as opposed to finding some diamond in the rough).

Posted by: Erick | May 23, 2008 11:32 AM

-----------------

There are so many factual mistakes in your post that I don't know where to start.

Answer: Streaming Eagles

Question: What the Screaming Eagles become after too many beers.

Hi-O!

I'd gladly trade in my streamers for pyro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2qFFv8SZtU

Think of it as a release valve; if we WEREN'T allowed to throw streamers, thats when you have to worry. Right now the supporters groups have laid off the Flares/Smokebombs at the request of the club (while other supporters groups actively use them). As soon as streamers go, so does that unwrittern agreement.

Wouldn't it be fun if two subs got off the bench with big sheets to "protect" the corner kick taker? They could just go there and stand there with the sheet up so the streamers never hit the kicker. That would be a great response from a team and I see no reason why they wouldn't be allowed to do it. If the fans can try to interfere with the play, then the subs should be able to stand off the field and protect the players. At the very least, it would bring the issue into the forefront and force a decision by the league.

While I can understand game-delay concerns that several people have, I can't help but wonder what world all these people live in where the fear of an unrolled crepe paper streamer could cause serious injury to a player. The entire thing (even water-logged) weighs at it's most....a quarter pound? So light in fact that it is more likely to be blown onto a player by the wind than actually directly hit via a throw. The unfurled streamers (especially when wet) are so weak in their 'tensile strength' that an enfant could tear through miles of it and the thought of misplaced 'trajectories' is the most ridiculous thing to be said on the topic of streamers in my entire life (one quite naturally embedded with millions of streamer tales).

Yes it can delay the game (honestly for 30 seconds, not ten minutes), and it *is* distracting, absolutely. But it's a safe and fun thing that Toronto fans enjoy doing. I'm sure any escalations will be dealt with quickly and harshly, so let's focus more on having fun at the games, and less on helmet'izing our society with yet another pair of kid gloves.

As for the concrete, I believe that it is now covered in a foam/rubber matting.

Juan - Exactly. The away team must carry out perfect execution to avoid, depending on the situation, a potentially game-changing false start. The home team doesn't. You still refer to executing a silent count to perfection as if it's no big deal, something that any team can do if they so choose. If that were true, Qwest would not lead the league in false starts. And as I said before, a disproportionatley large percentage of those false starts occur at critical moments in the game. They aren't just sprinkled randomly throughout the game.

I still say I've never seen a streamer incident have as big and impact on a game. And that's really the only thing that matters - impact on the game due to fans' actions impairing the away team's ability to execute.

Granted, it's hard to quantify the impact of streamers on corners, because you don't know what would have happened on any corner. But that's partly the point. The argument, "well, it's *possible* the trajectory of the ball would have been slightly different, *possibly* allowing the attacker to get off a clean header" is far more speculation than, "they were going for it on 4th and inches late in the game, but the crowd got the left tackle to jump off sides, so now they have to punt". Or, worse yet, penalizing yourself out of field goal range.

Oh god, someone take the streamers away from those mean Canadians. Boo hoo waa waa.

Juan - Sorry, one more point. There is no game clock in soccer. I've never seen a referee get after a player for taking the time to remove the streamers. As far as I can tell, they can take as much time as they want. Usually though, they don't seem to consider it worth the bother.

As if DCU could score on a corner, anyway :)

Safety is not the critical element here.

The issue is that it is physically impossible for a player to take an effective corner kick when fans hit the ball with streamers as it is being struck.

Give me another example of a sport where fans can deliberately disturb the physical trajectory of the ball.

For the record, I think streamers should be allowed at games-- they look great-- but it should not be permitted for fans to deliberately interfere with the physical course of play. I've never heard of such a thing, and it's pathetic that it is allowed to go on.

So what if streamers interfere with the game, just look at the NFL..Loud booing by home fans REALLY interfere with the game, causing the visiting team to take loads of penalties or run the wrong play! Does anybody call for that to be banned? Well? What if the booing caused 2 players to run into each other cause they couldn't hear the audible!

"Juan - Sorry, one more point. There is no game clock in soccer."

Fair enough, though "delaying the restart of play" is listed under Law 12, "fouls and misconduct" in LOTG, and I've seen a referee wave impatiently at the corner kick taker on at least one occasion during a bombardment at BMO.

So there's evidently a conflict between the LOTG and the way games are managed when fans interfere with play by throwing objects at players and the ball.

Frankly, as I said above, I would love to see a team run the clock out with TFC trailing by a goal by a player refusing to take a corner until there are no attempts by fans to interfere with the physical course of the game. That would put a stop to the idiots.

JDO, stop being obtuse and address the example of the hypothetical air horn that "shoots down" a thrown pass. You keep restating the same argument, which has been refuted: random outcomes are not part of our sporting tradition. Crowd noise for football offenses does not generate random outcomes, as a well-drilled team does not need audible play counts, whereas a ball struck in flight or a foot struck while moving by a thrown object from a fan DOES necessarily generate an uncontrollable, random outcome.

Craig, your toothless argument was already refuted. Have a look at earlier comments, and in the future, DO keep up.

I like the idea of an away team taking forever if they had a lead to exhaust the streamers. That would sure piss off those Toronto fans, and make an excellent point.
I don't know if anyone read "Let's move on" but I swear an entire day was wasted on this topic previously...
I think we should direct or attention to something more important, like say constructing this Super Powerful Low Frequency Horn MJ is talking about. Maybe they could sell them for 5 bucks outside of the stadium and we could really turn this season around!!!

Per Ives, Bocanegra is available.

I ALREADY HAVE TEH PATENT, DADRYAN

Blank Man,

I got the date of Petke xfer wrong...he was 2005. That is what I get for typing while working a day job. And I corrected Petke for Vanney up above...again hell for multitasking.

Outside of that, what will you tell me?

If I totally missed the front office's intentions, please highlight them so I do not incorrectly assume they have failed far more often than they have succeeded in their overseas acquisitions during the last four seasons (04-current).

Aside from foreign transactions that would be shame a drunken sailor on Manila shore leave, my other point was that the back line never recovered from 04/05 and Cup-winning form. The only one who remains from that defensive core is Namoff. What does that tell us? Either they were all soylent green, or not. United ground up everyone else and drove on with inferior replacements, as evidenced by the results. We got one decent year out of Erp-fu and Boswell - and even that was laden with mistakes and panic by all involved. It was embarassing last year watching them get pwned by E.J.

In three years, they have found only one guy (Martinez) who look competent back there, going forward and back. The best tackler DC has shown in some time. Outside of that what?

They have tried and failed to assemble a stable core back there. Just the back line since '04 lost(not counting Nelsen, since they can't compete with EPL cash): Hendrickson, Prideaux, Stokes, Wilson, Petke, Erpen, Boswell, Vanney, Merritt, Arena, now Mediate, Burch, Peralta, McTavish. Plus, three keepers in three years (soon to be four, I hope).

They assemble and reassemble and the pieces don't fit. Is that incorrect?

I know you need to score goals to win, but the backline is the base for the attack. Lack of compsure in the defense, leaving them under continual pressure, reduces counterattacks, reduces possession, etc. Without a proper back, it matters not how many you score if you keep letting them in. The succcess of the Italians is built almost exclusively on defense.

This season especially, they are a sieve. Say what we want about Supporter's Shield...we lasted about ten seconds in the playoffs, when it mattered most.

Gallardo and Moreno are nowaways seen tracking back to their own 18...I guess they don't trust the transition can ever get started from the back and so they do it themselves.

It used to be that DC United was able to put together a group of guys (under Nowak) that was greater than the sum of its parts. Nowadays, on paper they are "better" but effectively worse. It is now indeed LESS than the sum of its parts.

What am I missing?

EdtheRed:

I was going to say the exact same thing. I found myself wondering Wednesday why the TFC fans have no banners with a South Park-style rendering of Dichio. "I'm not your friend, buddy!"

Frankly, as I said above, I would love to see a team run the clock out with TFC trailing by a goal by a player refusing to take a corner until there are no attempts by fans to interfere with the physical course of the game. That would put a stop to the idiots.

Posted by: Mastodon Juan | May 23, 2008 12:38 PM
===================

If Toronto were trailing the fans would not delay the game by throwing streamers. If they did, then they would indeed be idiots.

I've seen them continue throwing streamers while losing. What would happen if a player refused to take the corner, I don't know, but nothing has stopped them so far, and there's no evidence yet that they're NOT idiots.

But this "safety" argument is silly. I could just as easily support an argument that allowing drunken fans to throw streamers gives them a safe outlet for their aggression, and by taking that away, you're incrasing the risk that they'll throw whatever else they can get their hands on.

That argument would be pretty silly, but no more so than the safety argument.

------------------------------------

They are throwing objects at the players.

Case closed.

Why so much hatred towards Toronto and it's fanbase? If it were your home town you'd be right alongside them, annihilating their corner kickers. It seems like any MLS fan from the US inherantly hates TFC..

So what's the deal?

That's right Frankenstein WE HATE THE CANADIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GO USA!
GO USA!

The streamers were funny/clever the first couple times, but now it's just fully annoying and does look fairly childish. The fact that people are getting so red in the face defending their right to throw crepe paper around is strange to me. Don't you care about the game, first and foremost? Supporting your team through chants and singing, great, but trying to impede the flow of the game physically is something altogether different. It should be stopped and MLS should not wait until someone gets hurt to do something. It's a problem now.

And if it's so important for you to throw the crepe paper around, throw your streamers at each other within the confines of the seating areas.

"Frankenstein": it's a cowardly way to gain a home field advantage, and no MLS team's fans have been so classless as to try this. Got nothing to do with Toronto as a city.

"Frankenstein": it's a cowardly way to gain a home field advantage, and no MLS team's fans have been so classless as to try this. Got nothing to do with Toronto as a city.

Posted by: Mastodon Juan | May 23, 2008 1:16 PM

Well....maybe a little.

If Toronto were trailing the fans would not delay the game by throwing streamers. If they did, then they would indeed be idiots.

Posted by: I-270, Exit 1 | May 23, 2008 12:58 PM

Um, I want you to re-read that last statement then consider who you are talking about.

I think you'll come to the same conclusion as me that the fact they ARE idiots was never up for discussion, its just one of those facts of life you have to take into account when building other arguments.

So you Americans (loosely placed due to all other teams being American) hate the entire streamers/overtly passionate fanbase that Toronto has? I can see why you would be frustrated - I know I would be too if another team did it to the Reds - but it is largely harmless fun, and I haven't seen a wonky corner kick yet so it can't be *that* gamebreaking.

Plus, you know you'd be right into it if it were your team doing it. It's 100% childish and silly, but I gotta tell ya, when the other team is setting up a corner and the guy is buried like a mummy, it's hilarious and awesome.

We're Canadian. We're mainly peaceful and quiet people and we don't like confrontation. We throw soft paper streamers at your team, it's really not a big deal in my opinion :o

"Frankenstein": it's a cowardly way to gain a home field advantage, and no MLS team's fans have been so classless as to try this. Got nothing to do with Toronto as a city.

Posted by: Mastodon Juan | May 23, 2008 1:16 PM

===========================================

Are you so ignorant to the game that you think that its classless?

Maybe this is whats wrong with the average-joe american supporter; you're supposed live and die for your club (maybe not literally, we are talking about streamers), supposed to do everything you can to make your team win. Have you not heard of urine-bags being thrown in Venezula, or fans in Ecuador circling the away team's hotel in dirt bikes the night before a match?

Using streamers is the polite Canadian way of making our home stadium harder to play in. If you can't understand this, if you can't appreciate this, leave my sport. You cannot, as a fan, compare yourself to me.

Are you so ignorant to the game that you think that its classless?

Maybe this is whats wrong with the average-joe american supporter; you're supposed live and die for your club (maybe not literally, we are talking about streamers), supposed to do everything you can to make your team win
-----------------------
That's what a lot of this is about. And MastoJuan, you can't possibly think a four-ouce ribbon hitting a seven-pound soccer ball is going to significantly affect its trajectory. If so, I'd suggest a return to physics class, my lad.

Secondly, even the rolled up ribbons weigh so little they can be carried off by the wind. So stop crying, you frikkin' babies.

Third, the referee has discretion over game delays, up to and including carding the home team and adding substantial minutes to the game, so there's already a rule covering it.

Jeez, you people cry like little girls shunned at a tea party. It's no wonder Gallardo thinks American players are gutless, if this is how you rein in your passion for the sport. Can you imagine how any sensible adult in the rest of the world must look at Americans, standing there wagging their collective fingers like an absurd Fred McMurray stereotype and saying "now son, we all like ribbons, but it delays proceedings and, gosh darn it, ya could lose an eye!"

Gahd, what a bunch of wussies. Go back to supporting baseball, would ya?

"the entire streamers/overtly passionate fanbase"

Conflation of two separate things.

What I'm really hearing is "we are deliberately engaging in completely unsporting conduct by physically interfering with the run of play, which no one else will do, therefore we are more passionate than anyone else."

"And MastoJuan, you can't possibly think a four-ouce ribbon hitting a seven-pound soccer ball is going to significantly affect its trajectory. If so, I'd suggest a return to physics class, my lad."

Yeah, if hit at the beginning of its trajectory, very little force (3.5% of mass, but also velocity and tensile strength) will translate into a significantly different trajectory over the span of the 45 to 55 yards that make up the length of the curve and the 20 to 30 degrees of angle that define the range of good corner kicks. Slight alterations to a course translate to a significant difference over distance, and MLS teams practice set pieces like corners for many hours a week. They're not just random events.

We have to be clear on the problem with the streamers. They aren't wounding anyone, and it's needless conjecture to suppose they might be used to convey something more injurious. You don't need to gift wrap a projectile.

The streamers are too much because they are being done to deliberately, physically interfere with the visiting teams best chance of winning. Not to simply make it more difficult, but to actually interfere with the play. That makes it entirely different than anything like crowd noise.

Anyone who likens it to crowd noise -- consider this: How would you feel if the fans brought long polls or fishing nets and used them to try and trip up the corner kick taker? Heck, if they're close enough, they could just reach out and pull on the jersey or push the guy in the back! Or rush out of the stands and tackle him? How is that really different than throwing streamers at him when he's trying to kick? It's a little less brazen, to be sure -- but it's the same in the sense of fans physically trying to interfere with the play.

It changes the game entirely. Why should the Toronto players try to defend by playing the ball to touch? It's now far more effective to play it over the end line on defense. The visiting team has a better chance with throw-ins than corner kicks. Frankly, it not only changes the game, it ruins it. I would say the same if it were our fans doing it to the other team.

I don't understand all the hate towards streamers here.

to put things in perspective, do this:

1) go out and buy a streamer
2) remove the streamer from its packaging and weigh it
3) throw it as hard as you can at a friend, and have him/her repeat the process to you
4) check for bruises, cuts, broken bones, etc
5) chart your findings on a graph and repeat steps 3-5 on other people

as for the other arguments put up here, it doesn't interfere with play, they're thrown during corner kicks which is a DEAD BALL situation. Which means that play does not resume until a foot makes contact with the ball. Which means that if there is any time wasted during this, it will be added on at the end of the half by the referee. But seeing that cleaning up streamers takes about as long as it does to set up a wall on a free kick, I don't think it's as major of an issue that a good number of you on here are making it out to be.

by the way, your "streamers are a gateway projectile" arguments are unfounded and ridiculous, please re-think them before making such non sensical points. That's like saying: "after watching the movie 'Gone in 60 Seconds', I immediately left the movie theater and stole 12 cars from the parking lot".

The gateway projectile claim is silly, I think most will agree. There will always be idiots and always be nutjobs, but no one is sitting at home waiting for TFC fans to snipe opposing players with rifles just so that they can shout "I TOLD YOU SO".

Juan's comments about the physics behind a corner kick and the butterfly effect of streamers being introduced is also extremely overstated and exaggerated. Truth be told there are a myriad of non-addressable variables that far outweigh the armageddon that a deep impact from a streamer would cause on a kicked soccer ball. Wind speed, Wind direction, Air pressure, temperature, weather, grass type, grass length, pitch slope, tightness of clete, exhaustion of player, sunlight all contribute to a corner kick and there is very little that we can do to address any of these things.

Do teams practice kicking in 4" grass facing north in a low pressure setting at 5000ft above sea level with easternly winds at 5 mph and a dewpoint of .45 with a pitch downslope of -5 degrees? No. They learn to kick the ball and be consistant regardless of adversities. These players are pro's (usually); they can block out the crowd and kick through some streamers no problem. I've seen maybe 12-15 games at BMO field and never seen an opposed player butcher a corner, regardless of streamer to air ratio. Most of them could kick through a corn field and hit their target 9 out of 10 times.

Like I said before, I believe that a lot of this is more of a frustration/jealousy factor than a genuine concern for the betterment of the game.

I mean, at least we're not stabbing people.

A few dozen stupid, drunk Canadians lobbing hundreds of streamers at a player trying to take a corner kick isn't "the butterfly effect," son. It's a bunch of idiotic slobs who are too pathetic to sing their team to victory, so instead, they have to throw crap at the other team to get a draw.

And unlike physical facts about the game weather, throwing crap at players and the ball by design affects only one team.

You're one of those jackasses who tries to muddy the waters to get out of an unwinnable argument, aren't you? Well, listen up: YOU ALREADY LOST.

I think you're just too used to pushing random comments with as much sprawling background information that has almost nothing to do with the argument at hand and glazing over the eyes of your adversaries that you don't know how to reply to an actual counterpoint, which is why you completely ignored my post and focused instead on insulting me :D

Does a northern wind on a north/south field also only affect one team? How about an afternoon game in an east/west pitch? Will the sun be plaguing both teams at once, or only one?? How about temperature or turf design. Would a team that practices on natural grass not have a harder time on fieldturf versus a team that plays only on the latter?

Your issue is that the fans are willingly adding another variable, and I can understand that plainly. They (we) however won't stop, and every other team in the league knows that, comes prepared to face that, and has overcome it in approximately 5 seconds. Your complaint is a non-issue, and if the biggest problem with coming up north is the addition of crepe paper projectile attacks, I think you've gotten off fairly easily.

My only regret is you declaring victory in the Blog Comment Posting War of 2008 so quickly! I just had 500 t-shirts that say "Go TFC Streamer Supporters on Washington Post Blog" with "Crepe Paper your face" on the back.. Sucks to be me I guess!

Great POINT!! Fans across the whole MLS league need to stop swinging their purses! Man up for once! If your in KC, DC , RSL i don't care where you are, pick up a freaking streamer box bring it to the game and throw it!! Its fun, and the MLS needs more of it!! SO MAN UP FOR ONCE!!

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Secondly, even the rolled up ribbons weigh so little they can be carried off by the wind. So stop crying, you frikkin' babies.

Third, the referee has discretion over game delays, up to and including carding the home team and adding substantial minutes to the game, so there's already a rule covering it.

Jeez, you people cry like little girls shunned at a tea party. It's no wonder Gallardo thinks American players are gutless, if this is how you rein in your passion for the sport. Can you imagine how any sensible adult in the rest of the world must look at Americans, standing there wagging their collective fingers like an absurd Fred McMurray stereotype and saying "now son, we all like ribbons, but it delays proceedings and, gosh darn it, ya could lose an eye!"

Gahd, what a bunch of wussies. Go back to supporting baseball, would ya?

Goff don't be ridiculous it not about hurting a player, duhhh.

It's about interfering with play.........

You people have a very child like concept of international futbol. Streamers are not thrown directly at players when taking a corner or free kick or penalty or anything else you can think of.

Heck some fans might try it but in those leagues the fans are to far away to make any type of impact or distract the player taking a corner. In others were the fans are close they cant throw anything.

You are already seeing this type of stupidity taking places at other stadiums in the MLS. Get real children, respect the game.

Goff don't be ridiculous it not about hurting a player, duhhh.

It's about interfering with play.........

You people have a very child like concept of international futbol. Streamers are not thrown directly at players when taking a corner or free kick or penalty or anything else you can think of.

Heck some fans might try it but in those leagues the fans are to far away to make any type of impact or distract the player taking the FREE kick. In others were the fans are close there not aloud to throw anything.

You are already seeing this type of stupidity taking places at other stadiums in the MLS. Get real children, respect the game.

Yo TFCredandwhite you gonna man up and come down to the game on Saturday buddy? Come down and show everyone what time it is with the streamers.
Shunned at a tea party? What? Who's decorating like a bunch of women at a tea party?
I love it when this blog drags in the enemy. Toronto sucks! Your most prolific goal scorer is Dichio!YeeeeHaw!

Hey DC fans...check the standings before you cheap talk TFC

You still suck imfao!
Like I said earlier we do have a ton of losses but you still only have two more wins than us, have had a bye week and 0 tournament play.
United is in a funk indeed but the season is long and you guys won't last. Your streamers and your big action man Dichio are not gonna get it done. I keep waiting for Edu to blow up but until then you guys have played one less game than us and have four wins! Wow!
United has peaked at the right time to win the Supporters shield two years straight but failed in the playoffs. I like our chances down the stretch. where will you be at the end of the season?

Ahead of you losers, that's for sure. Damn, Momryan, havent' you looked at the stats lately. Hell, we played terribly in the last game and still walked all over DC for as long as it took to get a lead.

Then TFC just had to sit back and await the inevitable incompetence from DC.

Juan - I know I keep making the same argument. That's because it is still relevant and esentially unadddressed.

And I'm not addressing your hypothetical scenario because Qwest offers real life scenarios.

I have not yet seen a game at BMO as clearly impacted by the crowd as, say, the Giants-Seahawks game in 2005, won in OT by the Seahawks. The Seahawks would absolutely have lost that game without the Giants' 11 false starts, which they themselves attributed to crowd noise. There's nothing hypothetical there. That's how the game actually happened. I have yet to hear of a game in Toronto where it can be so clearly said that the away team absolutely lost because of streamers. Period.

Maybe that will happen one day, but until it does, to me, Seahawks fans get "first prize" for interfering with the opponent's ability to execute basic plays and influencing the outcome of a game. And you can quibble about the different nature of crowd noise vs. streamers, but clearly influencing the outcome of the game by interfering with the away team's ability to execute routine plays, be that a corner kick of a snap, is the real issue.

And I'm not saying that the streamers can't and don't impact the game. And I certainly understand why people don't like it. Just as I understand people who regard crowd noise at football games as "bush league". (I tend to be rather neutral regarding both, though I guess I've been one of those noise makers Qwest. And the streamers don't really amuse me now as they once did.). It's just a matter of degree. And based on my observations, streamers achieve the same result, but to and as yet lesser degree than excessive crowd noise based on stadium acoustics and a crowd with the specific objective of getting the other team penalized.

I'm starting a new United fan club:

Streaming Eagles.

Who's with me?

Posted by: Joe Doc | May 23, 2008 12:04 PM

Which Men's room do we meet in? I can usually make it to half-time.. ;-)

Too F%@#ing Cowardly... to leave a handle again!

@Posted by: jloome | May 23, 2008 9:30 AM

please provide one youtube link of fans throwing crap onto the field during play and it's accepted anywhere on earth. Even at the SuperClasico (the real one) the throwing crap stops once the whistle blows. 99% of the things thrown at La Bombonera remain in the stands where it belongs. If TFC fans wanna huck streamers at one another during the game go nuts.

Oh and the calls that it's unreasonable to think that someone would abuse the 'right' to throw streamers onto the field and toss something else since it hasn't happened yet is simply moronic. It's called being a bit proactive when there is an obvious opportunity to explout safety.

streamers are very dangerous, perhaps Homeland Security could look into this foreign activity. Also, we should regulate what fans chant and at what decibels. After all, players and fans may have eardrums hurt. Also, people might spit on players...so we should not allow fans to open their mouths. Long live post 9/11 paranoia!
(Insert sarcasm throughout).