"we're in your face."

Yeah, that'll win people over.

As a libertarian/conservative, the kind of Democrat I fear most is SandyK. She talks sense, she's rational, and she knows the prescription for Democratic victory. The past few days have been my first exposure to the Kos kids, and my God, what a train wreck. Please, I beg you Kosskids, support Hillary. I fear her and I need the Kos Kiss o' Death to take her down.

How utterly awesome to watch a liberal rant about how great dailykos is, while, in the same breath, denouncing the democraticunderground as "crappy" and "ugly", when BOTH sites share the same suspects of liberal moonbat society!!!

Great laugh for anyone who actually has a kernel of knowledge on internet politics... lol

i.e. Most of the posters from either site frequent BOTH sites... either of which will ban you (and quickly erase any history of your posts) for the slightest whisper or perceived slight against their stated world views.

They are both very nice examples of the high regard that liberals have for freedom of speech (unless they disagree with you).

I have to give credit to both Kos and the DU for being liberal echo chambers, but not a whole lot more.

The truth of the matter is that, no matter what political ideology you subscribe to, there are sites that will fulfill the same role for you that the DU and Dailykos fill for liberals, and they are ALL growing, because the political internet society AS A WHOLE is growing.

DUH.

The really cool ones are the ones where people of all stripes go... from the looniest liberal to the craziest religious right-wingnut to the zealous anarchist...

and face off against each other instead of preaching to the chior.

I'm a strong Hillary Clinton supporter and at the same time admire what KOS has done. Let's face it , the Begalas and Carvilles of this world are tired out and have cashed in. Kos has been an energizing change agent and a much needed rallying point against an essentially corrupt electronic MSM, mainly poison pill voices like Russert, Matthews and Blitzer who play the Republican pay to play game to enrich themselves and acquire more influence and corporate job protection. Kos, has provided a much needed alternative platform.

My only problem with KOS, as Peter Beinart notes, is that he is way too ahistorical, KOS is addicted to the immediacy of firecracker politics, which is good in some ways but bad in many others. By simply dismissing Clinton out of hand he misses the subtleties of Bill Clinton's brilliant kabuki politics. As long as KOS remains a catalyst for the Democratic party as a whole and EVERYONE who seeks to throw his or her hat in the Democratic primaries, all well and good. The moment though, that KOS crosses the line and intentionally or not starts advocating for Mark Warner so early on, he begins to loose credibility. KOS in addition can get a little too prescriptive, a little too dictatorial where careful reasoning would be more helpful. If Moulitsas gets too over the top KOS stands a chance of alienating black voters and some labor (less likely to be net roots types) who are afterall still relevant in the democratic party process. He needs to be above board and above the manipulations of the "let's-run-Hillary-out-of-the-process-early-crowd currently in vogue in the MSM and on some other progressive sites. All in all though, Moulitsas/KOS is a welcome asset for the democrats. May the best man or woman win the primaries with reason, passion and ideas. Not mindless villification and poison pill blogs.

The only thing dumber than characterizing Daily KO$ as "left" (or even "liberal" for that matter) is claiming that remaking "Seven Samurai" would be a good thing.

I'll tell you one candidate that needs more aide by netizens - Senator Akaka. For all those touting Lamont against Lieberman, I hope they'll also note that it's a reverse situation with Akaka v. Case, where Akaka opposes Bush's War in Iraq, and Case (D-in-name-only) supports Bush.

Also - Akaka just got the endorsement of Democracy for America: Honolulu - Case isn't getting the support of any group in Hawaii.

stupidity...

you're next.

.

what you're willing to talk about is not the same thing

as talking,

wanta thaw, break some ixe...

.

I can drop a handercheif in china and affect the stock market...

but then I'm not like the rest of you...

I don't go through channels...

.

a tool is only as good as the person using it....

you can be driving a 200,000 dollar car and still be driving cr-ap because you're the one driving it....

someone else can get in a volkswagen beetle and be driving a rolls....

lighting is lightening in some capable hands..

.

Sandy I say agian I could care less about coding and whatever else worhtless work you do with your worthless life. All I know is DKos is much bigger and more influential than your precious DU, which is one of the crappiest sites I have ever been to, by the way. Did you design it?? Oh man that must be it! No wonder it's such a piece of crap!

"Kos is to the Democrats as Hannity is to the Conservatives -- each are liabilities to the "cause". Each cater to the extremes of their parties, which force the majority to distruct, either."

"I stated the exact same thing back at DK, but noooooooooo, they were too angry, too stupid, and extreme to even want to listen. It's too late now to change the format, since the public has an archives of what's really behind the new face lift."

"What's a moron is concluding what I didn't even state at DK."

Oh, poor Sandy, now you prove yourself to be a liar and hypoctrite on TOP of being a moron.

Now, any more stupid statements you want to make so I can prove them wrong moron??

OG spitted:
===========================================
You compared Kos to Hannity?!

No wonder you got booted you moron.
===========================================

What's a moron is concluding what I didn't even state at DK.

Keep coming back like that, OG, and keep suffering from Foot and Mouth disease. :)

SandyK

Ohio Guy,

It wasn't even a "try". Your mistake was comparing apples and oranges (especially to someone who does the site setups and designing) and not reading carefully.

Oh, do care about coding since it makes or breaks sites, literally. It doesn't matter if it didn't crash on you, since no one person is online 24/7 (and your socks can't be up 24/7, either...lol). What you don't know is all the breakdowns, the hack/crack attempts (and completions) and the guys in the background sweating bullets to keep the code and servers up for that load. That ugliness is kept from you, but a everyday occurance on sites of that size.

You got the "dissertation" because you're too busy propaganding with bogus info.

BTW, tell the DK yahoo management to tidy up their code. It looks as ugly as Dean's "HEEEEHAAAAAW", and shows just as bad judgement on the direction of the "netroots" when their site looks like a 15 year-old designed it.

Now, again, anymore dumb questions, Ohio Guy?

SandyK

I applaud the Kos Kids efforts!! Not that I idenditify with the PUBS, a Conservative GDI here, But with their won/loss record-can't be anything but good for this country!

Kos brings to the fore-front for all to see the Krazy and Extreme Left with the Obvious results!!

So Kos, by all means-KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!:)

LOL!!!

You compared Kos to Hannity?!

No wonder you got booted you moron.

Only a fool would compare a thoughful, middle-of-the-road army veteran in Kos to that idiotic blowhard of the RightWing Propaganda Network. Hmmm....lets's see, Hannity wrote a book titled "Deliver us from Evil" and guess what the "Evil" in the title is.....that's right - Democrats. I've never heard of nor read anyhting that Kos wrote that is nearly as inflammatory or as baseless as any of the things that Hannity says on a daily basis. Here's a tip for you Sandy - it wasn't the statement in and of itself that got you booted, it was your complete lack of similarities between the two men that i'm sure you failed to provide - b/c none exist. Daily Kos accepts differnet viewpoints - just the other day one regular poster went on a rant about how marriage should only be between a man and woman (a very UNpopular opinion at that site you can imagine) - and was not kicked off nor troll rated, b/c he/she at least was not offensive in comparing gays to something like child molesters in their post or making some other baseless comparison.

I know you must be used to throwing out whatever senseless, false drivel you want on a blog like this and getting away with, but what Daily Kos values above any ideological purity is rationality and facts in any and all arguments made. If you compare apples and oranges in an unproductive and frankly insulting way like you did, you deserve to be kicked off.

Sandy -

Nice try at rting to change the subject of which blog/forum has more INFLUENCE and READERSHIP. I could care less about any of the coding and fees involved in either of these blogs, I admit I am not a computer nerd like yourself.

"[Way too many sites have these errors, because they careless or clueless on coding properly, and hoping to pass the buck on it's users ["Please donate money"] after the 100th time their site and users computers are hacked/cracked."

Sorry to break it to you again Sandy but DKos has never crashed on me and the site has always been up for the year I have been posting on it. Oh, and I have never ONE been solicited for donations. On a related note, when sitememter.com started tracking readership at DKos, DKos was getting so many hits per day (over 600,000), that we made the sitemeter site itself crash.

"Again, anymore dumb questions, Ohio Guy?"

Hmmmm, that's funny - I don't remember ASKING you for a dissertation on blogs and forums, but you threw out a lot of useless facts anyways to try to cover up the fact that your precious DU is nowhere in the same stratosphere as Daily Kos, a site you you hate b/c you SUPPOSEDLY got kicked out off it.

Elvisbeblue wrote:
===========================================
"I'm sorry, but Kos is a highly divisive figure in the Democratic Party who like Dean is unfortunately stricken with foot in mouth disease."
===========================================

Kos is to the Democrats as Hannity is to the Conservatives -- each are liabilities to the "cause". Each cater to the extremes of their parties, which force the majority to distruct, either.

I stated the exact same thing back at DK, but noooooooooo, they were too angry, too stupid, and extreme to even want to listen. It's too late now to change the format, since the public has an archives of what's really behind the new face lift.

DK, DU and Hannity repels the majority of voters who don't wear partisanship on their sleeve, let alone are party members. They alienate the very base of voters they need to win elections. They ONLY cater to the extremes -- bridges are burned there not constructed or mended.

===========================================
"it should be dually noted that if people like Kos begin to appear on press shows and begin to represent our party---we can kiss winning back the government goodbye"
===========================================

Yes, because Hannity and crew will paint DK and crew for what they are. Then DK and crew will return fire and the general public will see the true face of each.

Since Bush numbers show that the conservative voting base relies on moderate/centrist voters to pump up the numbers, alienating them will just draw them back to what is the status quo (the conservative camp's "saving grace" for the undecided voters who fear revolutionary change).

With Dean at the helm, Kos as the engine, might as well put the Democratic party on life support, since that combination won't work, period. Dean made one "HEHAWWWWWWW" yell, and not only alienated the swing voters, his own party to reject his nomination. That shows how much Dean doesn't understand the Democrat base, let alone the real politick. Add DK to the deal, and it's a prescription for suicide.

The DK founder probably doesn't care now, as he's a fat cat on ad dollars, so even if the Dems fail for 50 years, he'll be cashing in on the demise (just like Hannity and the whole Fox News model is based upon -- why the public gets the same junk from both sides). Don't be surprised he'll become a consultant/Lobbyist next. He's already courting the TV networks, which is the access needed to get to the think tanks and $$$$$$$ lobby jobs.

Just more of the same o' same o'.

===========================================
"Also, while I do enjoy the daily badinage that occurs at Daily Kos, some of you Kossacks can be extremely vicious and juvenile in your comments towards others on the site who disagree with you."
===========================================

You got a Nomex suit? Because as soon as you question these extremists of truly moderating their extremism, you've become a "A Karl lackey", because they're so partisan and can't think outside the box.

They want the brass ring only their way, and burn every bridge in the effort to get it.

===========================================
"Hint: does anyone remember George McGovern's '72 campaign against Nixon? We will continually be crushed by the conservatives until we elect center-left Democrats who'll continually push America towards the left (where it belongs) over time."
===========================================

Which is why the Right fears Hilary soooo much. They know she can appeal across party lines, gender, and race -- the demographics that if united (and not divided as the Right has been effective in doing to maintain control) will decide the election.

They also can't play hardball with her, as it'll win the sympathy vote.

The play isn't about who screams the loudest, or who has the biggest "netroot" (which means nothing at election time, as 15 year-olds don't vote until they're in their 30's, that's been the statistics for 30 years and won't change just due to the internet), it's basic and common sense politicking: choose candidates that gain the sympathy vote, who can't be readily attacked as it'll draw that vote, and who can unite and reach across the divides. That is how the conservatives keep winning, and will keep winning until the Democrats learn that Revolutions don't win elections, down to Earth people who don't instill fear among the majority of voters.

SandyK

Ohio Guy,

Since you're clueless between the formats...

1. Blogs are "light" forums.
2. Due to #1, Blogs can never be full fledge forums because it lacks the expansive coding.
3. Due to #1 and #2, blogs are largely undeveloped.
4. Due to #1, #2, #3, blogs often have to be recoded to add functions that are for granted in forum software/development.
5. Due to #1, #2, #3, #4, blogs design layout looks butt ugly.
6. Due to #1, #2, #3, #4, #5 blogs rely either on paying out of pocket (donations), or free help to add the extra coding and designs to turn the blogs into more like a forum (it defeats the purpose, but I digress).
7. Due to #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6 (and since most rely on free help in the beginning) winds up paying more in the long run to maintain and fix.
8. Due to #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7 this is what occurs...

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailykos.com

[Way too many sites have these errors, because they careless or clueless on coding properly, and hoping to pass the buck on it's users ["Please donate money"] after the 100th time their site and users computers are hacked/cracked. Since if they can't/won't correct simple XHTML errors, you can imagine what they do for more complex Apache/IIS/PHP/ASP/JS/Java/MS Sql/MySql problems]

What you're doing is comparing a 500 muscle car engine (forum) against a 50cc motorcyle engine (blog). Only idiots without any knowledge of the backend, let alone the frontend would try.

Again, anymore dumb questions, Ohio Guy?

SandyK
Illustrator (Commercial Art/Pre-press)
Web designer (Website/SEO)
Forum designer/modder (XHTML/PHP/MySql)

I'm sorry, but Kos is a highly divisive figure in the Democratic Party who like Dean is unfortunately stricken with foot in mouth disease. While I am no way at all trying to undermine the Daily Kos and other "netroots" role in electing numerous officials through cash donations it should be dually noted that if people like Kos begin to appear on press shows and begin to represent our party---we can kiss winning back the government goodbye: saying he felt nothing (and to screw them!?) when Iraqis mutilated and desecrated the bodies of those 4 contractors in Iraq is despicable. And to try to defend it by saying how he lived through El Salvador's civil war etc. etc. is equally gross and irresponsible. I don't hear Elie Wiesel throwing around those kind of comments even though he survived the Holocaust. As a bleeding-heart liberal that he proclaims he is, he should feel sadness and empathy for any person that is murdered and abused. I cannot think of any figure on the left that is so divisive and ignorant since Ayn Rand was around.

Also, while I do enjoy the daily badinage that occurs at Daily Kos, some of you Kossacks can be extremely vicious and juvenile in your comments towards others on the site who disagree with you.

Lastly, let's cut the B.S. that America can only change if we elect super-liberal candidates to office (especially in the elections of '06 and '08). Hint: does anyone remember George McGovern's '72 campaign against Nixon? We will continually be crushed by the conservatives until we elect center-left Democrats who'll continually push America towards the left (where it belongs) over time.

Whatever DailyKos's actual influence on elections, I find it amusing how the RW smearmeisters are starting to get just as shrill in denouncing it as they accuse Kossacks being.

(Kossacks, btw, are what we who regularly read and post on the DailyKos call ourselves.)

Reminds me of the Ghandi saying:

"First they ignore you,
then they ridicule you,
then they fight you,
then you win."

Seems like we're at the fighting stage now. Keep it up, right-wingers.

"Daily Kos has at least 20,000 registered users"

that should read "Daily Kos has at least 20,000 MORE registered users" - sorry about that.

"One of the larger forums online, OG. Oh, and don't bother to look for Daily Kos, it doesn't even qualify to be listed."

Poor Sandy, you are so stupid I suspect you are one of those people who must wear a helmet when you leave the house. DU is not nearly one of the biggest forums online, sorry to break it to you. Daily Kos has at least 20,000 registered users and generates many times more traffic and views every day and nearly 20 million a month.

Here is a ranking of the top 100 most influential blogs for you to look at:

http://blogstreet.com/biq100.html

Hmmm....DU isn't even on it. Daily Kos is #5.

Another link showing the top blogs that are cross-linked by other blogs.

http://blogstreet.com/top100.html

Again....your "Larger Forum" DU is noticably absent. Daily Kos is #7 by the way.

Next time you go looking for facts, maybe try not using such a crappy website in your arguments you idiot. Did you notice that that site only had one - ONE, i repeat ONE site in the "Left Wing Political" blog catrgory?? There are literlally hundreds if not thousands of left-wing political blogs.

"Anymore dumb questions, Ohio Guy?"

Yeh you airhead, the same one I have asked you 3 times and you haven't answered - what did you supposedly say that got you kicked off Daily Kos? Oh that's right, I forgot - you made it up to try to play the poor victim card. Oooooh you poor baby why don't you go cry to Rush Limbuagh and Ann Coulter, i'm sure people of that stripe will love a buffon like yourself.

Ohio Guy wrote:
===========================================
"What the hell is DU?"
===========================================

http://www.big-boards.com/board/1100/

One of the larger forums online, OG. Oh, and don't bother to look for Daily Kos, it doesn't even qualify to be listed.

Anymore dumb questions, Ohio Guy?

SandyK

"Tell me do you frequent DU?"

What the hell is DU?

"If that was true, my comments would've not warranted a banning (as it was no worse than what I post here, and certainly less vulgar than what the regulars there were dishing out)"

You still didn't answer the question - which leads me to believe you are full of it. Which is surprising, since there is obviously nothing filling up that empty spcae between your ears.

"BTW, the difference with Daily Kos it isn't objective, let alone mainstream or "center"."

SandyK i challenge you to provide one fact or story or whatever showing Daily Kos is out of the mainstream. Just b/c they cover stories too hard for people of your limited intelligence to comprehend does not make them crazy.

Ohioguy wrote:
===========================================
"Say what it was that got you banned and prove it Sandy K. You don't exactly have a lot of credibility based on your past statements."
===========================================

Tell me do you frequent DU? I know one of it's founders, Ohioguy, and went to bat for him at another site (not once, not twice for like 2 years). So you can put down your dildo, I have plenty of street cred on objectivity with even your own ilk. I get along fine with all stripes, except for the blind partisans too stupid to know the difference.

BTW, the difference with Daily Kos it isn't objective, let alone mainstream or "center". If that was true, my comments would've not warranted a banning (as it was no worse than what I post here, and certainly less vulgar than what the regulars there were dishing out) -- especially since I'm not a social conservative or even a Republican. HA!

SandyK

Markos isn't taking "credit" for victories - he is pointing out campaigns where the netroots SUPPORTED a winning candidate. Success, as you all know, has many fathers.

But if you doubt the importance of the netroots' role in certain of these victories, then I encourage you to... check out this very blog! See what Chris wrote here:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2006/03/netroots_winners.html

Some choice quotes:

>>>Russ Levsen, communications director for Herseth, confirmed that the netroots played a major part in her special election victory. We definitely benefited from the activism, the support online ... and a lot of people coming out to South Dakota because they believed in Stephanie's campaign," Levsen said.

Jennifer Spalding, a Chandler spokeswoman, said the Democratic netroots played a "critical role" in her boss's special election victory.<<<

Oh, and before the logic-impaired here say that Chandler and Herseth's staffers are just sucking up to Markos after the fact... well, why bother sucking up if you don't think he brings something to the table?

A change is in the air . . . I can feel it. Might take some time and a few losses, but a genuine change is about to come our way.

And the GOP better look closely into that dark cloud on the horizon, because its moving ever so slowly and surely toward them.

and so on...

watch

patterns of actions...consistent lying, persistent giving of the countries assests to certain individuals....

you could take the Republican investment in the California election to replace dicklyss cunning ham....

recoreded phone messages from the President and Vice President, to certain households and an unprecedented amount of cash spent to make sure that a Republican got elected to cunning ham's seat....

what was that about?

people feeling like they were on a roll, wanting to take the steam off of people feeling like they could get the country back....

did they advertise about how they did it?

no, it was on NPR....not as an exposure, just as an aside...

2 + 2 ='s 4

front page the next day, "Republicans Win in California, Democrats Can't Deliver,"

I'm not partisan, but the Republicans, president and vice president were deeeeeeeply invested in that single election....

because it damped spirits...

deception is a well used tool, and WHO OWNS the media?

corporations do....

evil is not a single thing, it's the intent behind the movement...

the only way to stalk a predator is to be one...

.

what are Americans being fed? and why do the rest of the people in the world refer to them as "the mushroom people?"

because they are kept in the dark and fed BU ll SH-it...

Say what it was that got you banned and prove it Sandy K. You don't exactly have a lot of credibility based on your past statements.

hmmm......guess it never really happened then.

Beedee wrote
===========================================
"Yeah, and I guess it's must be those same conservatives that help raise all that netroots money for Democratic candidates that us jobless lazy liberals just could never afford to. I had to sell my shoes yesterday just to keep my Internet turned on, but hey, it beats working."
===========================================

Funny thing is despite a huge war chest, despite all the catcalls, the ones Dems want to vote, don't (and using their parents credit card to donate money doesn't qualify, since kids don't vote to make a difference).

SandyK
Who's been voting since the Reagan years.

Say what it was that got you banned and prove it Sandy K. You don't exactly have a lot of credibility based on your past statements.

Daily Kos is a partisan site that truly isn't tolerant to anything but their own voice. I've lasted almost 2 years at Hannity, even though I wasn't a GOPer, and differed greatly with social conservatives. Lasted less than 10 days at Daily Kos before being banned from the site (for rhetoric no worse than I post here at WP).

It's not mainstream or "center" by a long shot. It's clearly fringe like, which partisan banter bordering on hate speech. If you're right of Mao you're a conservative there.

SandyK

because el george' don't lie...

oar at least he don't ad ef ing admit it:

well since el Zaquistor was actually a fabtication of the current government...an "evil doer," of epic proportions

well who cares?

I listen to NPR and BBC...when I want the news...

not CNN or the newsfeeds...how did the Toviets keep the russian people down? Pravda...the Soviet NEWS agency...pure propaganda..

I listen, but I also have first hand knowledge of how things work,

I worked in Washington DC for 20 years, and some of that was with the military, and a lot of my friends were "in the business,"

it's not too hard to see the media manipulation for what it is...

like the engineer that supposedly gave his girlfriend the plans for the "classified," Blackhawke....that was the best we had....shure...

or the spyplane that was shot down, and studied by China....for like 6 weeks, and all of a sudden they take a big step forward in the semiconductor field....

yeah, the media, they know what's going on...

media people, are not insiders, they are ordinary

people that don't know the difference, and good people that can't believe that Americans would knowingly create situations that hurt other people...

Because they were never taught that.

I ask you to remember one thing:

What kind of people seperate married couples (families) and children as a way of preventing an uprising of a class of people, or keep people who speak the same language from being sold together, or keep people from learning to read and write....

I'm talking slave owners, but I'm also talking class of people, and caste system...

is it soooo hard to imagine these people manipulating the government and media to control a country or countries for the benefit of a few?

nicaragua/sandistas/Iran/shah of iran/noriega/panama/saddam/iraq

UAE/Saudi's piloted the 9/11 scam...

these people, slave owners, an elite upper class, actually existed less than 200 years ago, and had families and taught them to manipulate....some of them might even be in the military or have access to controlling it...

most of these people's families are _still_ in power.

that kind of inhumanity is inherited from Royalty, and families that are inherited wealthy....

.

not saying _all_ people are like that, but if it's not in your family history, you're not going to recognize it for what it is, and you'll believe the (tinfoil helmets, koolaide, conspiracy theory) comments that say

"don't look here," "I'm busy raping your sister,"

when I first started posting here some time back I compared the administration and people working with them to child molestors...

that still holds true,

you want to stop them, point at them, identify them....

it's not an event based activity it's a way of life

you need to see the way of life and indentify the perpatrators for what they are...

forget about the single events,

"I was just sitting down,"

"I didn't mean any harm,"

and so on...

patterns of actions...consistent lying, persistent giving of the countries assests to certain individuals....

you could take the Republican investment in the California election to replace dicklyss cunning ham....

recoreded phone messages from the President and Vice President, to certain households and an unprecedented amount of cash spent to make sure that a Republican got elected to cunning ham's seat....

what was that about?

people feeling like they were on a roll, wanting to take the steam off of people feeling like they could get the country back....

did they advertise about how they did it?

no, it was on NPR....not as an exposure, just as an aside...

2 + 2 ='s 4

front page the next day, "Republicans Win in California, Democrats Can't Deliver,"

I'm not partisan, but the Republicans, president and vice president were deeeeeeeply invested in that single election....

because it damped spirits...

deception is a well used tool, and WHO OWNS the media?

corporations do....

evil is not a single thing, it's the intent behind the movement...

the only way to stalk a predator is to be one...

.

what are Americans being fed? and why do the rest of the people in the world refer to them as "the mushroom people?"

because they are kept in the dark and fed BULLSH-it...

Look, if you're going to point out that the victories of candidates like Tester and Obama had nothing to do with DailyKos and the netroots, than you can't very well blame them for the losses.

It doesn't matter what the result is, the goal is recognition and impetus for change. As long as SOME new issue is brought to the fore and is now in the minds of voters, or ONE candidate adopts a slightly more progressive position as a result of internet-based activism, then we've already won.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, and then you win.

It took years for the conservatives to put together their grass roots movement, and put our country in the place it is now. (BTW, thanks. Heck of a job!) It will take time for us too. The important thing is to keep fighting .... our very Constitution depends on it.

As to DailyKos's Win/Loss record, this is a very stupid talking point.

Kos has taken issue with other progressive groups supporting less progressive, but highly favoured candidates. Why do they do this? So their win/loss record looks good. Kos does not subscribe to this. And he doesn't go around trying to help good progressives who don't need any help either.

If he wanted a great win/loss record he would go around endorsing the likes of Ted Kennedy, John Kerry and Barbara Boxer for Senate and then crooning about how they won. That would be 3 more Wins. The point of this is to change the course of races where the Democrat or Progressive Democrat will lose without help. Perhaps they pick a few too many hopeless cases, but it's funny how even the blogosphere's actual wins, like Dean for DNC, Obama and now Tester get discounted as inevitable, but when they lose like with Busby in California - it's all our fault somehow.

The best part is, with every loss, we just fight harder. The efforts to discourage us are failing.

yeah, Silent Cal, you were right when you said:

"Kos gets more hits than the conservative blogs because conservatives tend to have jobs, leaving less time for the reading of fiction."

Yeah, and I guess it's must be those same conservatives that help raise all that netroots money for Democratic candidates that us jobless lazy liberals just could never afford to. I had to sell my shoes yesterday just to keep my Internet turned on, but hey, it beats working.

"And I don't care if Stephanie HErseth publically embraced online blogging."
"You are giving way too much credit for bloggers in their influence on races? Did they help. Almost certainly."

Dorian - don't try to change your tune b/c i smakced you around on the facts. You go from saying that the netroots have zero power and claiming candidates won't be associated with them to saying that they do but that it dosen't matter. Typical wingnut behavior after getting your words proved as the idiotic rants that they are - claim that you never said them. Are you related to Vivian and Zouk??

The bottom line is that the so-called netroots is just another part of the political constituency, with their agenda just like everbody else. The fact that they use the internet does not make them freaks or out of the mainstream. Uninformed blowhards like you have no idea about the facts that just came out showing the average Daily Kos user is in his upper 30's, college educated, politically active and well-to-do financially. In short, better educated and more successful than the average voter. Kinda takes the air out of the sails of ignoramuses who claim it's a bunch of teenage liberals blogging from their parents' basements. What's really hilarious is people like you who think an endorsement from bloggers is like the kiss of death. When republicans try to smear let's say...Stephanie Herseth by saying "Oh my God - she's been endorsed by Markos Moulitsas! She must be a Liberal!", who the hell in South Dakota is going to know who he is or what Daily Kos is or for that matter give a damn? Let the South Dakota republicans try to scare people that she is backed by "scary internet users" while Herseth runs a campaign on the issues and competence and kicks the crud out of the republican. The funniest thing is people like you who take left-wing blog sites so seriously and place them in the same camp as bigots like Coulter and Limbaugh.

Dorian,

You have just 1 category for Franken, Limbaugh, Coulter and Kos? That's one wide pigeon-hole you use.

I suppose you equate U2 and Charles Manson because they were both opinionated musicians too? It's already been pointed out that no prominent left wing personality says anything near to what coulter says in terms of spite and malice. She wants "liberals" in general put in prison, or deported.

Limbaugh too - and both of them are incurable liars to boot. What are Kos and Franken lying about? When has Franken called for terrorist attacks on Conservative newspapers? Is Kos a recovering drug addict who only avoids jail time by being wealthy and influential? Or a big "marriage defender" who is, what, thrice divorced?

No. You can of course disagree with Franken and Kos, but neither belongs in a bin with those other two scumbags.

As for "disgrace to all military veterans" - Duke Cunningham is a disgrace to veterans, what "disgraceful" act has Kos committed? Oooh, he writes for what he believes in. How sickening. He should just sit down and shut up like a good little veteran.

And just because right-wing blowharts go and say stupid things, doesnt mean the works of Kos should be endorsed. He's said a lot worse things than that regarding the Iraq conflict. Regardless of people's opinions on the war (I myself want an immediate withdrawal), politicans universally stay away from him, unless they try and get his support for rallying the base. For example, its widely known in Washign ton that Harry Reid and Raul Emanuel talk to him as a consult, yet they both along with Kos deny that is the case.

It is in my opinion that he is a disgrace to all military veterans. I respect and cherish the first amendment, but that doesnt mean I have to respect and cherish his words and I put him in the same category as Al Franken, Rush Limbaugh, and Ann Coulter amongst others who divide this nation with their poisonous rhetoric.

Yeah, it's you who needs to start reading. Tester crushed Morrison not because of bloggers, but because of ethical concerns. Morrison's lead over Tester didnt just evaporate because all of a sudden Kos & co. jumped in. That's foolishness.

And I don't care if Stephanie HErseth publically embraced online blogging. She's a politican. John McCain is openly "embracing" the ideaological right. Do you think if he is the Republican nominee, he'll be hugging George Bush, Jerry Falwell, and Rush Limbaugh in the open? I think not.

Use your head, "Ohio guy." Even Tom Daschle, as liberal as he was, ran ads showing him and George Bush HUGGING EACH OTHER? Why? Because he represents South Dakota! If you are gonna sit there, and say that Stephanie HErseth could walk around South Dakota, openly embrace these bloggers, and expect to be re-elected, then personally, i think you've lost your mind. That was exactly what John Thune used against Tom Daschle when he unseated him: His link to the far left. Give me a break.

You are giving way too much credit for bloggers in their influence on races? Did they help. Almost certainly. But if these bloggers did not exist, Obama would have still won the primary and Morrisson would have still beat Tester.

Also, when you start talking about DLC "puppets." It's these "puppets" who make up the majority of voters in a number of states that Clinton won, and crossed over to Bush. Iowa, Kentucky, Louisiana, Montana, and New Mexico are just a number of states that are majority Democratic that Republicans keep winning at the federal level because the Democratic PArty simply doesnt get it.

Typical of a wingnut to say "nuff said" after using an ellipsis and taking out the entire context of what Markos said about the American contractors killed in Fallujah.

Clearly, it's not "nuff said" since you missed the entire point Markos was making. As a survivor of a brutal civil war in El Salvador, a witness to the brutality of mercenaries, as well as an American military veteran, Kos simply doesn't believe that for-profit contractors in a war zone desesrve the same accolades and public sympathies as our military does.

You can continue to harp on one comment that he wrote two years ago (not even in a main page post, but as one of hundreds of comments in discussion of one of thousands of posts he's made) all you want. Markos and the progressive netroots will keep gaining strength as you harp.

Meanwhile, right-wing radio star Glen Beck compares Gore to Hitler yesterday. Rush Limbaugh says the Democrats are going to "gang rape" the Republicans a couple of days ago. Hundreds more examples like this abound in hugely popular right-wing media EVERY week. So, fine, you want to rant on about one intemperate comment Markos made two years ago on his blog? Go right ahead. Keep yourself real busy with that.

"And he won because ALAN KEYES was the nominee!"

"Ohio guy? How can the "netroots" claim Obama's win as one of their victories?

He practically ran unopposed!"

Again, both of you need to go read up on your history. It seems like both of you know nothing about Barack Obama's race for the Senate in '04. In the Democratic primary, Barack Obama was trailing early in the primary to the other candidate, a Democratic DC establishment-backed candidate. Sites like Daily Kos and others chose to endorse Obama b/c he better represented the mainstream values of the Democratic party. Through the publicity and the money they raised for him, they helped catapult him not only into the lead but into stardom. Yet ANOTHER example of how when the netroots involves themselves in a primary like they did this year in the Montana Senate race, (choice between a REAL Democrat in Jon Tester and a DLC puppet in John Morrison) they can make a huge difference. Jon Tester was able to stay in the race in the early goings b/c of the money and support he recieved from the netroots early on. And now he is poised to knock off one of the worst Senators in the country in Conrad Burns. Either of you know why Tester was able to crush Morrison in the primary? B/c of a strong, GRASS-ROOTS effort that was helped in part by the internet community that turned what was supposed to be a close race into a LANDSLIDE.

"Oh yeah, and I bet 50 dollars that if Congresswoman Herseth ever heard that she was being endorsed by Kos, she would publicly rebuke him so she wouldnt lose in her RELIABLY CONSERVATIVE STATE."

Shows what you know Dorian - Rep. Herseth was asked what kind of impact the netroots and Daily Kos had on her campaign and she fully embraced them both - PUBLICLY. Get your facts straight before you shoot your mouth off. Oh, and give me your email address so I can tell you where to send that $50. She would not have won that tight race without the hundreds of thousands of dollars raised for her by the internet. I'm sorry to break it to you right-wingers but the internet liberal activists are having HUGE impacts on elections and their power grows every year.

"And he won because ALAN KEYES was the nominee!"

Even comparing her to Michael Moore is wrong. I challenge anyone to find statements Moore has made that come close to the level of malice that Coulter and her ilk regularly drop to.

Posted by: Fides | June 9, 2006 04:31 PM
If anyone on the left is like Coulter it's ted rall.

THS, your comments about Markos are very fair, but while I agree with him on many issues and go to his blog somewhat frequently, he is far from the only blog in the progressive netroots that has a huge following. Americablog, Eschaton, Crooks&Liars, TPM, of course Raw Story, even Michael Moore's webpage. The progressive blogoshpere is huge. We all vote, and we certainly have become a political force.

I would argue that this blog wouldnt even exist if it werent for the impact of the progressive netroots. The GOP had a spin machine in Rush and Fox News, the netroots was a response to that. Now its a whole new ballgame.

And people whining that the netroots hasnt won, gimme a break. The Dean campaign kicked the whole thing into high gear in 2004 and theres only been a handful of really good netroots elections since. And they all went as well as possible without winning, literally. 70% of America thinks the country is on the wrong track under this leadership. Signs point to the Dems. I think the score is going to more than even out before too long.

I concur

Ohio guy? How can the "netroots" claim Obama's win as one of their victories?

He practically ran unopposed!

Whoop-dee-do. Two Kos backed victories were Obama and Herseth?

GIVE ME A BREAK!

Obama won because he made a brilliant speech at the DNC. (Hell, the only reason why peopel want him to run for President is because of that speech. Can any of you tell me a major accomplishment of his since being elected?) And he won because ALAN KEYES was the nominee!

Herseth won because she ran for Congress against Bill Janklow the year before AND her grandfather was a former governor, her grandmother was a former state secretary of state, her father was in the state legisature for 20 yrs and he was the Democratic nominee in 1986.

Please don't give undue credit to a left-wing lunatic who after cameras caught Iraqi's dragging 4 burnt, charred, DISMEMBERED bodies of contractors through the streets of Fallujah before their remains were HUNG FROM A BRIDGE, Mr "Kos" sad this:

"I feel nothing... Screw them."

I pray to God that the Democrats continue to embrace this guy. They will never win a race outside of MAssachusetts if they do.

Oh yeah, and I bet50 dollars that if Congresswoman Herseth ever heard that she was being endorsed by Kos, she would publicly rebuke him so she wouldnt lose in her RELIABLY CONSERVATIVE STATE.

nuff said

Kos is getting a lot of attention (he's going to be on Meet the Press on Sunday, was interviewed about his book by Russert on his Saturday evening talk show last week), but I think he has some liabilities in addition to the failure to win elections.

Obviously, that's the most important, but I don't think he's going to get there until he grows up a little. It's one thing to be a flamethrower if you only want to stand in the street and wave signs, but if you want to build the coalitions that can win elections, he's going to have to be a bit more respectful to people who aren't totally on board w/ him on every issue.

That said, I give him credit for actually getting involved in the political process and bringing lots of others with him. That's lots more constructive than ranting at one's computer monitor, which is how a lot of bloggers tend to spend their time.

There's nothing really to debate in this post, no major questions posed, so all I have to go on is the fact that Cilliza chose to put the word victories in quotation marks (presumably to question the validity of the use of that word) and posters' comments about that awful awful excuse for a human being Ann Coulter, which clearly do not dignify a response.

So im left with just one thought in mind after reading whats here so far:

TESTER RULES!

If Moulitsas thinks he had anything to do w/Jon Tester winning on Tuesday in the MT Senate primary he is deluding himself and simply trying to justify his salary.

People here don't care what he thinks or pay any attention to what he puts on his website. Tester ran a solid primary campaign and his opponent self-destructed. Simple as that.

Two Daily Kos and netroots-backed victories:

Barack Obama IL-Sen and Stephanie Herseth SD-AL.

Kos gets more hits than the conservative blogs because conservatives tend to have jobs, leaving less time for the reading of fiction.

There is no doubt that the Washington Democrats are deeply entrenched, and that to date there are not many netroots victories. All that I have to say about this is "We have not yet begun to fight".

We have matched the amount of money that a small amount of big donors have given with millions of small donors. We have replaced the labor unions as the shoe leather of this party. Our blogs are filling in the gaps that the MSM fails to cover. We're on the radio, we're demonstrating in front of the white house, we're in your face.

Democrats ignore the netroots at their own peril.

Generally speaking, I think that the liberal left is a GOOD thing for the country. It pulls where people define the "center" to be towards the left, and I think this needs to happen after several decades of the Rush Limbaugh's, Ann Coulter's, Sean Hannity's and Bill O'Reilly's of the country have yanked the center to the right.

That having been said, I think that the KoS needs to have a few more ACTUAL victories under their belt as opposed to pyyric victories before they start crowing about having arrived.

I hope y'all are as motivated as those folks in California were motivated for Rob Reiner's tax hike.

Another bit of Coulter gold: "My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times Building."

When asked about it later, she said: "RE: McVeigh quote. Of course I regret it. I should have added, 'after everyone had left the building except the editors and reporters.'"

Markos may on occasion criticize those he disagrees with, but the level of demonization is radically different on the right. Coulter feels free to advocate terrorist attacks on those she disagrees with. She feels free to say we should conquer other countries and forcibly convert others to Christianity. We are regularly condemned, not just by her, as traitors and worse. To compare her to Kos is a transparent rhetorical trick, there is no equivalency here.

Even comparing her to Michael Moore is wrong. I challenge anyone to find statements Moore has made that come close to the level of malice that Coulter and her ilk regularly drop to.

The more success the DailyKos has the farther the Democratic party is pushed to the left. DailyKos is ensuring Republican control of government as it grows stronger.

Hey "Chris,"

Your speaking of the same Ann Coulter who recently attacked the 9/11 widows?

Thats a wonderful example. Kos called some Democrats "dumb" because he is trying to change parts of the Democratic Party so we actually, you know, win some elections once in awhile.

Meanwhile, Coulter called Muslims "camel jockeys", "jihad monkeys", and "tent merchants" so she could sell books.

But thanks for the ridiculous comparison...you made me laugh...at you.

So far, the victories have been limited, but they are getting there.

Dean at the DNC is a victory, because he's truly committed to building a national organization.

As for congressional/Senatorial races, I find it funny when the netroots takes a position on a long shot race that is what everyone pays attention too. There has been plenty of involvement in many races across the country, in terms of donations of time and money as well as in terms of adding to the pool of ideas and information.

I think Markos and most others realize this isn't a short term struggle, it's a long term effort that requires committment and time. Conservatives lost many, many elections before they won any; it's partly because of the organizations and infrastructure that they built that they eventually succeeded. The big victory is getting started on building a set of institutions that will eventually allow the rest of us (not just the far right wing) to have a real voice in the governing of this country.

Make sure you put plenty of your republican spin on it Chris. Remember your not allowed to disagree with the administration without being labeled angry or crazy or a loser.

Counting on ya, buddy. Keep up the good work.

Hey VivaBush,

Thats what they said about Republicans when LBJ squashed Goldwater.

Turns out, the Goldwater Revolution is a large part of why Republicans dominate the current electoral landscape.

But, by all means, please keep gloating. We netroots liberals will still be here whether you like it or not. Dailykos is growing every day as are many other progressive networking sites. Kos crushes the conservative blogs in terms of daily hits.

We have the savvy and the determination. So take heed Republicans, you have only seen the tip of the iceberg. Also, keep poking fun at us because it only increases our motivation.

Kos is a demagogue and a hypocrite. He attacks the rhetorical devices of the GOP, but doesn't hestitate to call democrats he disagrees with "stupid," "dumb," or worse. I'd compare him to Ann Colter, but at least she limits her ignorant venom to the other side.

Let's see now, Where's the Beef?

Howard Dean? Loser. Snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

Paul Hackett? 2-time loser. First to Jean Schmidt, then Sherrod Brown and the DSCC.

This all strikes me as much adoo about nothing.

Get back to me when you actually win something.

VivaDeWine06