blacks are about 11% of the electorate and Hispanics around 14%. That is 25% of the voters. I hope the Republicans ignore them as that makes it "a slam dunk" for the Dems in both Congressional and Senate races. Filabuster proof Senate is definitly a possibility. YES!!!

'More interesting is the TVC/RR set.' There was a link with that post, and I looked at the questions. Like the girl who said to Rudy's lectern '18 years ago an abortionist was hired to kill me. Do you think he should have?' or something like that. Questions none of them wanted to answer, partly because it will kill them in the general.

I think that's the issue, rather than racism, although it will probably look like that to those groups. I think there's just too many questions they don't want to answer. Blacks might want to talk about NO, Latinos about immigrations, so called 'values voters' [other people's values, that is] will want firm commitments to end abortion, persecute homosexuals, and endless war on just about everyone.

Now that there are cell phones and videocams everywhere, nobody wants a macaca moment on UTube.

'we have no way of stopping Iran from becoming a nuclear power short of starting a world war -'

Boko, I think that's exactly what they have in mind. it's crazy with no troops, but that's never stopped them.

"And don't you think it would appear as racism to blacks and Latinos themselves?"

It will continue to do so as long as they think that their support was the one and only reason a politician was elected.

That many of the leaders continue to ignore that their group is but one element of a coalition guarantees this result.

"Surely they're not all suddenly atheists or bigoted against evangelicals... "

bsimon: Maybe all the front runners have abandoned them because they (the R candidates) have serious strikes against them in the view of people like Dobson. Due to his amorphousness and appealing (to a born again christian) life story, Bush had a 'fit' with that crowd that may be difficult to reproduce. Or maybe because none of the front-runners have Rove working for them (yet).

judge crater writes
"maybe they think it's a very small percentage of the GOP base and feel comfortable ignoring it. Certainly the NRA is much more highly visible..."

Indeed. More interesting is the TVC/RR set. I understand the front-runners are snubbing that debate as well. Surely they're not all suddenly atheists or bigoted against evangelicals...

"Wonder what the numbers are, in terms of blacks/Hispanics as a percentage of the total vote?"

I dunno, maybe they think it's a very small percentage of the GOP base and feel comfortable ignoring it. Certainly the NRA is much more highly visible although in terms of total membership it's much smaller than the combined registered R black+hispanic vote. On the other hand, do any of these black groups the R's have been snubbing accurately represent the registered R black vote?

Or maybe they feel that they can make it up to them 'later' during the general.

Digbysblogspot, that sounds like a refreshing willingness from a Republican military member to admit the obvious... we have no way of stopping Iran from becoming a nuclear power short of starting a world war - while a plurality of our army is currently otherwise engaged.

drindl, with demographic trends in the U.S. being what they are, it's hard for me to believe that the GOP thinks it can safely ignore blacks and Latinos.

Just don't try to get MARRIED, or anything, cuz that would NOT be SUPERRRR, 'kay?

images/Politics/Romney_Flier_Pride_Weekend.JPG

The 'tar baby' fracas was just silly --political correctness at its Berkeley worst. But for Republicans to refuse to show up at any black or Latino political event--think what you will, bsimon, but if I were black I would think I was being insulted. But you are right--it's irrelevant what you or I think of it, the voters will decide. Since R's only carried about 11% of the black vote last time, it probably doesn't matter much to them anyway.

Let's see if the right maintains its reverence for the every utterance of Iraq war commanders when they get a load of this:

"Every effort should be made to stop Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons, but failing that, the world could live with a nuclear-armed regime in Tehran, a recently retired commander of U.S. forces in the Middle East said Monday.

John Abizaid, the retired Army general who headed Central Command for nearly four years, said he was confident that if Iran gained nuclear arms, the United States could deter it from using them.

"Iran is not a suicide nation," he said. "I mean, they may have some people in charge that don't appear to be rational, but I seriously doubt that the Iranians intend to attack us with a nuclear weapon."

The Iranians are aware, he said, that the United States has a far superior military capability.

"I believe that we have the power to deter Iran, should it become nuclear," he said, referring to the theory that Iran would not risk a catastrophic retaliatory strike by using a nuclear weapon against the United States.

"There are ways to live with a nuclear Iran," Abizaid said in remarks at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a think tank. "Let's face it, we lived with a nuclear Soviet Union, we've lived with a nuclear China, and we're living with (other) nuclear powers as well."

anon-
a link would be helpful. I haven't seen that story; for interested parties, his blog is ericblackink.com.

Mr Black, in 'retirement' is now out-scooping the newspaper for which he used to work.

drindl writes
"And don't you think it would appear as racism to blacks and Latinos themselves?"

The appearance of racism is not necessarily racism. A reasonable recent example is the use of 'tar baby' by Tony Snow early in his career as press secretary. Someone asked him a difficult question, to which he said "I'm not going to touch that tar baby." Now, some folks view 'tar baby' as a racial epithet. Mr Snow didn't use the term as a racial epithet, he used it to refer to getting caught up in a sticky situation that had nothing to do with race. Yet people reacted as though Mr Snow had endorsed lynching as an effective form of justice.

So, in short, I think its unfair to claim 'racism' when the top GOP candidates decline to appear at the PBS debate. HOld the event without them, and let the viewers/voters decide.

Hillarycare = Mittcare. Dems will not be happy with something that isn't truly uinversal.

http://political-buzz.com/

Eric Black at the Minnesota Monitor writes that the U.S. attorney in Minnesota, Rachel Paulose, is under investigation. The federal Office of Special Counsel is looking into allegations that she "mishandled classified information, decided to fire the subordinate who called it to her attention, retaliated against others in the office who crossed her, and made racist remarks about one employee."

Highlights of the charges:

- Paulose mishandled classified information. Black writes that Paulose regularly received "status updates on the war on terror" from intelligence and law enforcement agencies. The "secret" reports were supposed to be locked up, but Paulose "regularly left the reports loose in her office, sometimes unattended."

- Paulose threatened to fire an employee who raised concerns about the material.

- Paulose called employees racial epithets. "Paulose allegedly denigrated employees of the office, using the terms 'fat,' 'black,' 'lazy' and 'ass.'"

A look at Paulose's background indicates that she was handpicked by the Justice Department because of her personal connections, rather than her professional qualifications. She was a special assistant to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.

Paulose also created controversy when her lavish swearing-in ceremony in March included a professional photographer, a color guard, and a choir.

In what was billed as a major televised address on Iraq, President Bush last week "recycled tired rhetoric" and "mumbo jumbo" about staying the course. Sen. Jack Reed delivered a direct response, pledging the Democratic leadership would "exercise our Constitutional duties and profoundly change our military involvement in Iraq."

In case any more evidence was needed that the American public has tuned Bush out and is anxious to hear ideas for a responsible exit strategy from Iraq, we received it today. On both Fox and CNN, more viewers watched the Democratic response than they did the Bush speech. And on MSNBC, only a narrow sliver separate the viewership of the two speeches.

Speaking of black voters, a poll commissioned here in Maryland has Clinton and Giuliani winning their respective parties votes. The interesting thing is that Clinton and Obama are both taking a bit over 30% of the black vote here in MD, which has the highest percentage of African Americans outside of the deep south.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/politics/bal-md.poll18sep18,0,4401562.story

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2007/09/18/values_voters/index.html

Question for Giuliani, asked by a teenage girl with an apparent speech impediment:

"Eighteen years ago, an abortionist was hired to kill me, but he failed. Nuns came and rescued me and took me to the hospital, where I stayed for two months. My heroic parents then adopted me. Mayor Giuliani, your position on abortion would have left me dead. Now that you see me, Mayor Giuliani, do you honestly believe that an abortionist had a right to kill me?"

'I think presuming a race-based motivation is a bit of a leap.'

But bsimon, it happens every time. None of the frontrunners has ever appeared at any forum sponsored by blacks or Latinos, as far as I know. Don't you think the roiling anti-immigration movement among the base, which has more than a touch of racism, is at least a factor in it? And don't you think it would appear as racism to blacks and Latinos themselves?

And CC, I agree with Judge, above--the empty shelves behind you make it look like your office is an unused cubby hole corner somehwere in the basement supply room. Very distracting.

"what is that about? Has the R party simply given up on anyone but white voters? Are they afraid their racist base will be upset if they even meet with black and hispanic groups?"

I suspect that once one top-tier candidate drops out, the others feel pressure to likewise drop out, so they don't look like they're in the same league as the also-rans. I couldn't say what motivates the first candidate to drop out. Perhaps a disinclination to appear on PBS, where they might assume the audience is more hostile than in other venues. Who knows? I think presuming a race-based motivation is a bit of a leap.

Tony-
The problem, IMO, is not that voting (or 'turning up') is not compulsory, but that so many people feel like their vote doesn't count. The two party system is pretty limited in representing the diversity of views that exists among the electorate. So people don't vote because their vote won't 'count' anyway.

In the state where I live, there is an Independant party that did elect a governor, but has had zero success since then, despite the polls indicating that the 'I' party was closest to the most voters' positions on issues. People just assume that everyone else is going to vote R or D, so they do too - it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

'He would be better off paying more attention to the black groups he has been ignoring.'

Yeah, Judge, I saw that article --what is that about? Has the R party simply given up on anyone but white voters? Are they afraid their racist base will be upset if they even meet with black and hispanic groups? I think it's more than a little weird... they are treating them all as if they were lepers. Imagine what it must look like to viewers -- seeing 4 empty lecterns on the stage, all of them the R front-runners, every single one with a 'scheduling conflict'...what a snub. Why would anyone non-white be masochistic enough to vote for oneof them?

Wonder what the numbers are, in terms of blacks/Hispanics as a percentage of the total vote?

Tony from Down Under, Election Day here is on a Tuesday and is not even a national holiday.

Make proof of attendance at the polls a prereq for employers to give half day paid leave and it might work even better than a system of fines, that would clog the courts like traffic tickets!

Discussion starter:

I've noticed a few people asking recently what it would take to turn the USA General Election into something more open to Independents. An example given was that currently, if Obama ran as an Independent after losing to Hillary, it would just split the Dem vote giving Republicans victory.

So here's the deal - I'm an Australian, and over here voting is NOT compulsory. HOWEVER, turning up at a polling booth on election day IS compulsory. Elections are held on Saturdays, and if you fail to show, you get a $60 fine (There are reasonable exceptions, like if you were sick etc).

Basically, this means everyone votes - because the main reason people DON'T vote is laziness. If a $60 fine is incentive - people get off the couch and go do it.

So... here are my starter questions...

Firstly, do you think this system has merit?

Secondly, which major party would be the winner or loser?

Thirdly, what do you think would happen to the general state of play with USA politics if you had such a system? Would Independents have more of a chance?

To be honest, it seems to me CRAZY not to have such a system. It should be someone's right NOT to vote, and you still have that right in Australia. It is called a donkey vote. You turn up, get your name ticked off, but instead of voting you go home. The thing is NEARLY EVERYONE votes once they get there. I suspect this would change the landscape of the US election quite a bit.

Your thoughts...

Geez, when did being OT become equivalent to being a weirdo on this site?

CC, what is the deal with your tie and collar? It's almost as if you're about to burst out of your shirt (although the collar is obviously big enough for your neck) and you can't be bothered to tie a decent-looking knot. Is that some sort of post-Watergate 'look' that all reporters have to have? It makes you appear more harried but since it's the same each day it is apparently artificial. And what's the deal with the empty shelves behind you? Can I store some of my books there if you aren't using it?

In terms of decreasing the venom of the NRA Rudy is wasting his time. All gun issues are pry-it-from-my-cold-dead-fingers to the NRA faithful and Rudy was too interested in actually fighting crime in NYC (tsk, tsk) to keep them happy. He would be better off paying more attention to the black groups he has been ignoring.

At the White House, the president has got to be muttering "some friend" when he pores over the new autobio from his old buddy Vicente Fox, Mexico's former leader. That's because Fox raps his border pal as stubborn and "the cockiest guy I have ever met in my life." Revolution of Hope, out next month, is a well-written, well-researched book about Fox's political career and presidency, which coincided with George W. Bush's. He blames Bush's stubbornness on Iraq for bad international relations, and admits he didn't think Bush would ever become president. "I can't honestly say that I had ever seen George W. Bush getting to the White House," he pens.

WASHINGTON -- Chiquita Brands International, the Cincinnati-based company famous for its banana brand, on Monday made the first $5 million installment on a $25 million fine that it's agreed to pay as part of a guilty plea to charges that it supported a right-wing terrorist group in Colombia.

From ABC's The Note: "As that shakes out, ABC has obtained one flier Romney doesn't want you to see. It's from 2002, with Romney was running for governor with Kerry Healey as his running mate. 'Mitt and Kerry Wish You a Great Pride Weekend! All citizens deserve equal rights, regardless of their sexual preference.' (It's even pink.)"

Republican presidential candidate John McCain, who has long identified himself as an Episcopalian, said this weekend that he is a Baptist and has been for years.

Campaigning in this conservative, predominantly Baptist state, McCain called himself a Baptist when speaking to reporters Sunday.

Does anybody really believe the problem with the war in Iraq is too much questioning of those in authority, too much bluntness, and not enough deference to those who have been in charge of the war for the last four years?

That's apparently the feeling of all the conservative talk-show hosts and GOP presidential candidates who came down with the vapors over the MoveOn ad that had the temerity to question Gen. David Petraeus. Tens of thousands of dead civilians, nearly 4,000 dead American soldiers, half a trillion dollars spent, and the squandering of America's moral authority -- none of that seems to have ruffled their feathers very much. But the ad? Now that has got them royally steamed.

Rudy Giuliani is up in arms, railing against "character assassination on an American general who is putting his life at risk." John McCain thinks "MoveOn.org ought to be thrown out of this country." Even Don Rumsfeld popped his head out of his spider hole to blast the ad.

It's the political version of the old lawyer's axiom: When the law is against you, argue the facts. When the facts are against you, argue the law. When both are against you, attack the plaintiff. And when the war is an unmitigated disaster, the facts on the ground are against you, and your only plan for the future is 'more of the same,' go crazy over a newspaper ad.

Security is deteriorating in southern Iraq as rival Shiite militias vying for power have stepped up their attacks after moving out of Baghdad to avoid U.S.-led military operations, according to the latest quarterly Pentagon report on Iraq released yesterday.

"The security environment in southern Iraq took a notable turn for the worse in August" with the assassination of two governors, said the report, which covers June through August. "There may be retaliation and an increase in intra-Shi'a violence throughout the South," it said, whereas previously the violence was centered in the main southern city of Basra.

Former Tennessee Senator Fred Thompson has become the fourth leading GOP presidential candidate to shun the PBS debate this month at a historically black college in Baltimore, the Huffington Post has learned.

The debates, moderated by Tavis Smiley, will go on as planned, despite the absence of Thompson, former mayor Rudy Giuliani, former governor Mitt Romney, and Sen. John McCain. Each campaign cited scheduling issues as the reason for their absence. Nevertheless, the rejections underscore the consistent absence of GOP candidates at minority voter forums.

"There is a pattern here," Smiley told the Huffington Post. "When you tell every black and brown request that you get throughout the primary process that 'no, there's a scheduling problem.' That's a pattern... Are we really supposed to believe that all four of these guys couldn't make it because of scheduling?"

The Republican frontrunners' snubbing of Smiley and PBS comes on the heels of their rejection of a debate sponsored by the Spanish-language network Univision (McCain was the only GOP candidate to accept that invitation). This past June, only one Republican presidential candidate, California Rep. Duncan Hunter, showed up at the convention of the National Association of Latino Elected & Appointed Officials.

"It's not just that they are not coming. It's that some of them are visibly insulting us," Cecilia Munoz, vice president of NCLR, told the Politico.

According to Smiley, the Thompson campaign knew about the debate - taking place at 9 pm on September 27 at Morgan State University- well before he declared his candidacy. Former RNC Chairman Ken Mehlman chose the date because it worked best for all the potential candidates, Smiley said.

An official on Thompson's staff called up the PBS host on Monday to deliver the message.

"I told them I thought they were making a grave mistake and I thought they should reconsider," said Smiley. The Thompson campaign did not respond for a request for comment by the time of print.

The five other Republican candidates for president have all committed to the PBS debate and Smiley plans to proceed with the plans - albeit with four empty lecterns on stage.