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If ANY health care plan that covers most or all Americans is to succeed, money will be needed to pay the bills. I used to focus on health care and financial security when considering the heritage I wanted to leave my grandchildren and future generations. Now I realize that without peace, those who follow us will have inadequate social services because of the huge war expenss. So, last year I joined with a group of older women to form Grandmothers Against the War. Our activities have helped energize many members of our community--and ourselves. We have pledged to double our activities since we now see that "we the people" is the only hope for ending this disastrous war and occupation in Iraq. If all of us bloggers were to become activists (and not just bloggers) we might be able to make a difference. Start an activist group in your area. Check out our web site www.gawba.org and contact us at info@gawba.org or 510-845-3815 and we will provide free materials and any advice you care to ask us for. If you prefer to sit at your computer, you can do something important by contacting Speaker Nancy Pelosi and telling her that she should vote against supplemental funding for the war (a bill comes up shortly) and use her considerable powers to convince others to do the same. Contact her at http://speaker.house.gov/contact

afam212,
The choice between spending money on Iraq vs Heathcare is not really comparing apples to apples. A war, theoretically at least, is a short term event. The thinking goes that we can go into debt, if necessary, for the short term war and pay it back later (and/or during if we are really smart). Healthcare on the other hand, would be forever. There would need to be new permanent streams of revenue to fund it or cuts in other programs. Either way, the US could not sustain paying for healthcare the way we are currently paying (or planning to pay) for the war in Iraq.

As far as i know, everybody I know chooses their own healthcare. There are different options for different people. For instance, I have 2 choices my employer gives me, I could go out and purchase it on my own, I could choose not to buy insurance at all and pay for may care as needed, or I could look for a different company that offers different choices. Others may have more or fewer choices but to imply that there is no choice in how you handle your healthcare is incorrect.

You also ask "If one had a choice to work and not be able to afford to go to the doctor for yourselves and your kids, or not work and receive medical coverage, what would you do?" It appears you are talking about the "working poor" or people above the poverty line that are financially strapped. Well, first off, the people most likely to not need healthcare or want insurance are the "just out of school" group. They are the ones that consider themselves invincible and typically don't consider insurance a priority the way a 60 year old would. Most others in a financial bind end up at the emergency ward or clinic and get their care there.

But basically, there is a reason my parents told me to stay in school - so that i could earn a decent living and be able to afford things like healthcare. There are consequences if you don't go to college or drop out of high school and struggling to acquire healthcare is one of them.

" am jsut stark raVING MAd. i am NO Longer a uSEFul Tool of Zouk, at frist I was but NOw, I aM liKe a rabiD DoG, ANd I must gO. sorry EveryONe for beING rudE.

Owwwwwooooooooooo!

"

Keep using my post name brave zouk. Why aren't you in iraq again tough guy. Use my name. It makes you look like a moron. Can you not post your own posts? You are the laughing stock now. Do what you do coward. It's all you got

Blarg said "I don't like Hillary either. Hopefully people will start looking after the name recognition and elect a decent nominee. But if they don't, and she wins the Democratic nomination, then Democrats should support her. She's still better than Giuliani or Romney or whoever the Republicans come up with."

But in the long term wouldn't it be better to reserve our Democratic vote, and train the Democratic Party that it needs to actually put up decent nominees in the future?

Nobody is well-served by a Democratic Party that thinks it is a good idea to put up Hillary Clinton.

If Hillary goes up on the general ticket, I will vote for the Republican candidate if it is Romney, McCain or Huckabee. If it's Giuliani, who I think would be as much of a disaster as Hillary, I'll refrain from voting for any presidential candidate.

Rufus, the Hunt deal in Kurdistan is quite clearly about Hunt Oil MAKING MONEY. As I posted days ago, Exxon and the globals will not take a chance on this situation right now. That is an opportunity for Texas indies like Hunt, and before him, Ross Perot, Jr.

Ray Hunt also happens to be an insider on global energy policy because of his ties to the Admin. This leads to speculation that
despite what GWB SAYS, GWB knows that the
central govt. in Iraq is being supplanted by the regional govts. Else, why did not the State Dept. nix Hunt's deal with the Kurds?

Is your view that GWB led an invasion of Iraq in 2002 so that Ray Hunt could invest in a drilling operation in Iraq in 2007?

|, this is the citation to the paper.

http://www.bakerinstitute.org/Pubs/study_15.pdf

It seems quite a bit less aggressive than the
description of the paper. Read it and see what you see.

Republicans complain that HRC's health plan will cost billions a year. How much is our federal government borrowing to keep the war going in Iraq. When is it time to start worrying about Americans and not everyone else in the world.
As to the choice of consumers and the role of the marketplace concerning health care, how many people do you know choose their own healthcare? The average working American receives the health care coverage that is provided by their job. To lower costs, corporations and businesses find the cheapest healthcare for their employees. Those who live below the poverty level usually receives Medicaid or Medicare. The uninsured in this country is not the welfare queen and her children, but it is the working poor who works ate minimum wage. Since a majority of our new jobs in this country is service-oriented, then the high school graduate with no markatble skills are forced to work part-time with little or no benefits.
If one had a choice to work and not be able to afford to go to the doctor for yourselves and your kids, or not work and receive medical coverage, what would you do?

i am jsut stark raVING MAd. i am NO Longer a uSEFul Tool of Zouk, at frist I was but NOw, I aM liKe a rabiD DoG, ANd I must gO. sorry EveryONe for beING rudE.

Owwwwwooooooooooo!

FYI: More details on the Hillary health care plan can be found on her web site.

Rufi, if the Hunt deal turns out to be about anything other than an indie taking advantage of a deal that Exxon would not touch, it will be that Ray Hunt KNOWS that Iraq is decentralizing, a la Biden-Gelb, despite the Admin's insistence that they support the central govt."

Now mark is in Hunt's head. It can't be about making himself a pile of money. NOOOOOOO. That would be wrong. Bush and his freinds would never do something that is wrong for america. NOOOOOO. that would never happen. Go mark go. Hopefully the rest of teh country no longer buys your people's BS.

In a "BusinessWeek article...economist, Susan Houseman, discovered that the reliability of some U.S. economics statistics has been impaired by offshoring. Houseman found that cost reductions achieved by U.S. firms shifting production offshore are being miscounted as GDP growth in the United States and that productivity gains achieved by U.S. firms when they move design, research and development offshore are showing up as increases in U.S. productivity. Obviously, production and productivity that occur abroad are not part of the U.S. domestic economy. "

Thank you Hillary!

Houseman's discovery rated a BusinessWeek cover story

Your children will not follow you mark. Dumb them down. Hide them in YOUR cave

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave

Eventually they will go on-line. Eventually they will turn on a station other than fox. Eventually they will go to college. Your children will not be slaves to the same avatar as you. the future is now.

Imagine.

Sorry mark. I don't like to be patronized. Doublethink. If you don't know it's happening in your head, HERE'S YOU WAKE-UP CALL.

Doublethink mark. Personified. 1984 is not a play by play fascis manual. It was written by a socialist. It is a warning. You gop'ers with your rush limbaugh/hannity/gop talking points newspeak

Now who's crazy?

this is why many people hate drudge. this is why I call him a propogandist. Manilow say something anti-gop borg, they discredit him. Don't even wait a day. don't even wait an hour. Do it right under his attack on your cult.

"MANILOW BOYCOTTS 'VIEW' OVER CONSERVATIVE CO-HOST'S 'DANGEROUS AND OFFENSIVE' VIEWS...

Judge Sentences Noise Offenders to Mandatory Manilow Music... "

Whatever mark. now you know why I do what I do daily. I will never convince you people the sky is blue. But there are others out there. I will post for them.

|, that was a good post and I will read the source material. To split hairs, I do know that Saddam threatened to use oil as a "weapon" but in fact he was too addicted to the profits to actually do it in the
time before 2002. Also, I still do not think he had the resources to threaten the Gulf ports, as Greenspan theorized. I WILL read!

Rufi, if the Hunt deal turns out to be about anything other than an indie taking advantage of a deal that Exxon would not touch, it will be that Ray Hunt KNOWS that Iraq is decentralizing, a la Biden-Gelb, despite the Admin's insistence that they support the central govt.

not only that drindl. We were called "crazy". so forgive me if I don't bow down when they TRY and throw that accusation around now. You have to think. To the gop borg, anyone who is not a clone of reagan elvis or john wayne is crazy. To me, living life through external avatars or trying to be somehting they are not, are crazy

'.it's not anathema to discuss the protecting the oil supply '

How many parents and husbands and wives would want their loved ones to die 'protecting the oil supply'?

Which is precisely why we were never told the truth about Iraq.

'so you can engage in a knowledgeable conversation about how the system in Iraq developed and how it works or is supposed to work right now, and in the near future.'

I have read quite a bit about the structure of the system,Mark, and yes, american and british oil companies are going to reap quite a windfall profit from it. Look, I have no problem with capitalism per se [well a few, but I'm not basically against it]. Or oil companies.

But the point is that before the invasion, anyone who dared suggest that oil companies would profit from this conflict were demonized and called conspiracy theorists. No, you see, all the oil profits would go to Iraqis. Well, that's not true now and it never was. But we were told that. And we were also told the oil would pay for recontruction and the cost of the war itself. But now private companies are profiting and US [middle-class] taxpayers are footing the enormous bill, which is exactly what we said would happen.

So forgive me if I am cynical.

"Oil is in the equation significantly; maybe just not exactly the way a lot of people see it. But, "jobs and oil." gives them a lot of basis for their reasoning."

Don't forget the high stocks they were cheering about just a month ago

Albright says that Hillary is not a "cold fish"! I disagree and I also think she smells like a tuna.
Ask Vince Foster when you see him. He should know!

Mark in Austin - I think that it cuts both ways on oil and Iraq. From April 2001 (befroe 09/11): A report commissioned by former US Secretary of State James Baker and the Council on Foreign Relations, titled "Strategic Energy Policy Challenges For The 21st Century," is completed and submitted to Vice President Dick Cheney...The paper urges the US to formulate a comprehensive, integrated strategic energy policy to address the current energy crisis, which it attributes to infrastructural restraints, rapid global economic expansion, and the presence of obstacles to foreign investment in the oil-rich Middle East. The report says the world's supply of oil is not a factor in the crisis. "The reasons for the energy challenge have nothing to do with the global hydrocarbon resource base.... The world will not run short of hydrocarbons in the foreseeable future," the paper says. One of the report's recommendations is to "[r]eview policies toward Iraq" with the ultimate goal of stemming the tide of anti-Americanism in the Middle-East and "eas[ing] Iraqi oil-field investment restrictions." Iraq, under the leadership of Saddam Hussein, remains a "destabilizing influence... to the flow of oil to international markets from the Middle East." It also notes, "Saddam Hussein has also demonstrated a willingness to threaten to use the oil weapon and to use his own export program to manipulate oil markets." Therefore, the report says, the "United States should conduct an immediate policy review toward Iraq, including military, energy, economic, and political/diplomatic assessments" and work with key allies to develop a new integrated strategy toward Iraq. Key elements of the new policy should include narrowing the focus of sanctions and using diplomatic means to enforce existing UN resolutions.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=james_a._baker_iii_institute_for_public_policy_of_rice_university

Sometime after the invasion I saw Baker tell a journalist for ABC that "Iraq is about jobs and oil."

Oil is in the equation significantly; maybe just not exactly the way a lot of people see it. But, "jobs and oil." gives them a lot of basis for their reasoning.

'drindl - This is why I think that Zouk is paid to do this'

yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. In 2004 the RNC started paying people to disrupt the bigger politicals blogs... and of course Exxon is one of the bigger players in that field.

You'd think they'd hire someone smarter though, who didn't make their own movement look like a bunch of drooling, vacuous, infantile morons.

Are you in with Hunt oil out there in texas mark? Is that your angle :) JK

The cost of RXs here in the US has little to do with the cost of developing them, when you consider these same drugs sells in Canada and Mexico at up to 40 or 50% less. A lot of this cost is advertising. A good example is ADVAIR, used for the treatment of Asthma and COPD, cable TV is filled by their adds, and many studies clearly show the onset of pneaumonia is greatly increased by its use. The profits by the drug makers and the pharmacy where you have to get them is the other main factors in the cost.

"Blackwater's License Pulled By Iraqi Government Over Civilian Murders - May Face Charges
By: Logan Murphy @ 11:59 AM - PDT Yahoo:

The Iraqi government said Monday that it was pulling the license of an American security firm allegedly involved in the fatal shooting of civilians during an attack on a U.S. State Department motorcade in Baghdad.

The Interior Ministry said it would prosecute any foreign contractors found to have used excessive force in the Sunday shooting. It was latest accusation against the U.S.-contracted firms that operate with little or no supervision and are widely disliked by Iraqis who resent their speeding motorcades and forceful behavior.

Interior Ministry spokesman Abdul-Karim Khalaf said eight civilians were killed and 13 were wounded when security contractors believed to be working for Blackwater USA opened fire in a predominantly Sunni neighborhood of western Baghdad.

"We have canceled the license of Blackwater and prevented them from working all over Iraqi territory. We will also refer those involved to Iraqi judicial authorities," Khalaf said. Read more...

"

Now moving on. We already know iraq is for oil and bush is profitting on it. Old newws. Let's move on

'I, ignorant coward, having no recourse to post on topic with anything intelligent myself, will instead now post silly schoolyard things under someone else's name.'

we already know that's what you do, KOZ. you don't have to tell us.

"Bush friend's deal to hurt Iraq success?
Sept. 14: One of the president's friends is benefiting from an oil deal that threatens to rip Iraq apart. Talks on a law for Shi'ites, Sunnis and Kurds to share oil revenues fell through -- partially because of a new Kurd contract with Hunt Oil of Texas. Watch video"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/

Wacth it. And now that you know the truth will you change your tune? I doubt it

I got oil proof for you this weekend mark in austin. Stay logged on and I will lay it on you. If you promise to read, rather than going after me while not listening to my points. Give me a second. Stay logged on. I got you this time :)

proud, A lot of what you posted at 5:53P was at the heart of Blair's great speech to Commons that convinced me to support the invasion.

But Blair's point was not that we could not control Saddam - it was that the UN was so duplicitous giving the US and the UK the mandate to protect Saddam's neighbors while turning a blind eye to the violation of sanctions by Security Council Members. A German company built the bastard a bomb proof bunker in total disregard of the sanctions. Blair wanted to remove Saddam and turn the country over to the UN in three months and tell the UN it was their baby.

I never heard anyone say that the RAF and the USAF and the Brit and US PG Fleets could not completely handle any trick Saddam tried. Col. Cecil Cates, USA Ret., a former War College prof, now deceased, told me Saddam's Army was broken and his air defenses were grounded. I just do not buy that he was a threat to the straits in 2002.

Please pray for me. Lord knows I need his guidance.

Just know I am the republican's Americans nightmare. A soldier, a man raised by republcians, am man that knows you. AND hates what you represent. You sell your country out for party. You sell your brothers and sisters and sons out for money. You choose party over all. That is a cult. I am your worst nightmare gop. I know you. I know you like you know yourself.

And I hate you to the core. I am a white man. I am in the know. I am a non-violent anti-war veteran. Nothing is more scary to the gop. Which is why they spend all day trying to drown me out.

Why? Why not combat me or prove me wrong?

Read my posts deeper and you will find meaning. Or attack. Lie spin and dicredit. But just know. They do this because thye fear me. Think why. If I'm crazy would they spend all day dronwing me out? Think about it.

I am one of them. I see what you democrats don't. How can you know a martian? LEarn martian. Be around martians

"People fear what they don't understand. Hate what they can't conquer. I guess it's just the fury in man."

Nas

drindl, and everybody who thinks there is an American oil grab in Iraq, please read

http://bakerinstitute.org/Pubs/Iraq_s_Oil_Sector.pdf

so you can engage in a knowledgeable conversation about how the system in Iraq developed and how it works or is supposed to work right now, and in the near future.

This reading, entitled "Iraq's Oil Sector:
Issues and Opportunities" is a research paper from the Baker Institute at Rice University. It is 22 pages in plain English.

If you read it and think "oil grab", fine.
But please stop posting in a vacuum of misinformation.

If you find another research paper with as much concise basic information and tell me to read it before I reply to something you have posted, I WILL.

"...and he tried to kill my Dad!" proudtobeGOP.

"They waive the flag when you attack. When you come home, they turn their back"

Dave Cline

drindl - This is why I think that Zouk is paid to do this. No rational person would put so much of his afterNoon time and energy into being so disruptive.

rufus, we should pray for.

Mark- Absolutely not. Saddam was in full violation of the NFZ, our pilots had to routinely engage them and it was only a matter of time...not to mention the oil-for-food UN money grab debacle...I mean the guy was like a big mob boss, ruling with his iron fist and all the money he stole from his own countrymen. He was intent on controlling the Straits, and the UN was turning a blind eye to everything he did beacuse he paid them off.

This is what Newt is talking about too...it's not anathema to discuss the protecting the oil supply and the market in terms of global and national security. I'm not sure why this case hasn't been made more strenuosly before, in fact.

Since this blog has turned into a free form debate with some intelligent responses, I, ignorant coward, having no recourse to post on topic with anything intelligent myself, will instead now post silly schoolyard things under someone else's name. It's either that or going over to Kos for unrelated articles.

which do you prefer? I don't want to get called out again and asked to leave by my fellow Libs, like I was last week when all that reason broke out on this blog.

I will do my best to maintain the image of a complete and utter idiot as long as I can.

'ruins in the family I suppose.'

What a brilliant comment, zouk. Really. Christ, you are so clever... no, more than clever. Genius. You must have them rolling in the sandbox.

Where you born with this much mental impairment? Or did you get it from listening to too much rush? Or maybe you like oxycontin too?

"Markets are not supposed to be so easily made separate by either purchaseres or sellers"

Actually, isn't that exactly what markets are supposed to be - the essence of simplicity?

'rindl, Mr Greenspan specifically stated that this was not an oil-grab decision, so stop trying to paint it as such.'

So then it's just a coincidence that American oil companies are grabbling the oil now?

untwist the paranoid mind of drindl --

"It's warped by cronyism and corporations being able to bribe Congress."

See.

"my father in law takes 17 different drugs" why do I suspect they are mostly psychotropic, ruins in the family I suppose.

now where is the brain rudy promised me?

proud, I agree with your reading of Greenspan as told to Woodward. But don't you agree that given the no-fly box Greenspan's fear, after 1992, was irrational?

'Markets are not supposed to be so easily made separate by either purchaseres or sellers and I have never been satisfied with the explanations offered by the various stakeholders.'

Because they are all silly. Canada has much more stringent purity requirments than the US does -- especially in recent years. As does Europe. My duahgter's pediatrician told me that she gets vaccines from Switzerland for that reason.

My inlaws have been buying prescriptions from Canada for years -- my father in law takes 17 different drugs, and they fall into the absurd 'doughnut hole' and would never be able to afford it all here.

But you know we don't have a true free market system at all. It's warped by cronyism and corporations being able to bribe Congress.

Proud, the reasoned debate of last week, caused by influx of thinking sensible conservatives has now vanished in favor of moonbat heaven in here today. do you really think that rational, reasoned debate can untwist the paranoid mind of drindl or ignorant coward?

If so, you should refrain from sampling the wares.

My phone provider = My doctor, my dentist, my phramac....

Damn connection dropped again!

rindl, Mr Greenspan specifically stated that this was not an oil-grab decision, so stop trying to paint it as such. The problem of a crazy dictator like Saddam shutting down the straits of Hormuz has alot more to do with global economic collapse and prevention of economic terrorism than it does all of your old, tired conspriacy thoeries.

Disruption of even 3 to 4 million barrels a day could translate into oil prices as high as $120 a barrel -- far above even the recent highs of $80 set last week -- and the loss of anything more would mean "chaos" to the global economy.

Given that, "I'm saying taking Saddam out was essential," he said. But he added that he was not implying that the war was an oil grab.

"No, no, no," he said. Getting rid of Hussein achieved the purpose of "making certain that the existing system [of oil markets] continues to work, frankly, until we find other [energy supplies], which ultimately we will."

I didn't get my flu shot on time. I believe President Bush is personally responsible for this just as he is with all misery and dissappointment in the world, and it was his aim that my particular demographic suffer. I am a Lib as you can probably tell. I have no understanding of industry or market forces but trust the trial lawyers to do what's best for me at all times and think the teachers unions are doing a swell job of edubacating our yuts.

now where is my free ice cream hillary promised me?

'This type of plan will put you at the mercy of beaurocrats and number-crunchers before you even get to the Dr!'

As if I'm not now? Wtf are you talking about?

JasonL, the reference was to the Greenspan interview as reported by Woodward at

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/16/AR2007091601287.html?hpid=topnews

drindl, I am sure we are in agreement about cost issues. You know that the insurance industry gets 50% pricing on a lot of healthcare it pays for. I have wondered how it compares with medicare for efficient bargaining. I do not know.

I have wondered about what the effect of allowing states to buy drugs from Canadian pharmacies would be on the American pahrmaceutical market. Markets are not supposed to be so easily made separate by either purchaseres or sellers and I have never been satisfied with the explanations
offered by the various stakeholders.

The greatest good we have done for ourselves in the health care marketplace in 20 years has been the decline of tobacco use, which occurred outside the delivery system for health care.

When we talked about this last time, the only governmental response that I thought would be a cost saver was universal innoculations of school children. It would reduce communicable disease lost-time more than any other single step and the kids are found in one place for their shots. You may remember the firestorm of objections from the "I have a right not to be vaccinated" crowd.

'because we and the RAF were boxing Saddam in successfully with no-fly zones, and there was no way Saddam could move troops or missiles or fighter planes to attack his neighboring Arab countries after 1992. '

I didn't see that, Mark. I agree with you. Perhaps Mr. Greenspan didn't want to articulate his real reason -- which was that American companies were not able to profit from the oil. Which is what the oil agreement the politicos here are pushing so hard for will do.

JasonL -
I stated that illegals ARE chefly reponsible for the health care crisis and you blew it off! First, illegal use and do not pay for health care services to the tune of billions of dollars annually. Secondly, they "bid" against American workers for jobs - trading wages and benefits. Haven't been reading the news latel about the 25% decrease in employer coverage? THAT IS SOLELY DUE TO ILLEGALS!

Secondly, go check the EU website or the UN website for information on Sweden's population and the cost for healthcare. The most recent statistics are for 2005. The cost was $25.4 billion and the population was 9,047,752. Extrapolating to the U.S., with a population of slightly more than 300 billion, you get a *total* cost for health and dental and prescription drug and DME supplies AND psychological and ancillary servies of just under $85 billion. That is the TOTAL. You can get rid of Medicare and Medicaid and all private plans, do away with DME suppliers and private nursing home. That is the total. Period. QED - Ms. Clinton is selling a crock to people and anyone who is buying it is a fool. We do need universal health care, but we need a single payer Scandinavian style system, something that would put the bloated parasites that compose private medical services providers entirely out of business. The savings would be so enormous, even the most jaded conservative ought to be delighted by the news.

"all the cry-babies started howling about it just to blame President Bush."

I'm disappointed in your repsonse proud. Assuming that it is you and not Zouk using your name. Otherwise, Zouk in trying to poison the blog pulled you in.

The flu shot debacle was the result of this Administration's handling of it. It was the pre-cursor to the Katrina response. One of their responses was to blame Clinton, except he had been out of office for almost four years by that time.

Most people I know are fully aware of the availability of flu shots each year, get or don't get them, and understand that from year-to-year there may be delays in delivery.

They may not understand that it is a guessing-game as to which strains to make the vaccine for; but they accept the word of the medical experts. 2004 was an aberration and handled badly by the Administration.

A previous anonymous poster provided the best comment anybody could make, the essence of logic. If no one had wanted the shots, there wouldn't have been a shortage.

You sure sounded like Zouk on that one. I think that you need to take two aspirin and check-in in the morning.

re "The average American (non-HMO types) has a say in who they choose for a doctor, and which pharmacy dispenses their Rx's, but that's about the extent of it"

Well, if you'd like even LESS of a say, then by all means, vote for Hillary! Her plan mandates you to buy insurance even if you don't want it. If you think we are at the mercy of healthcare professionals now, I have news for you. This type of plan will put you at the mercy of beaurocrats and number-crunchers before you even get to the Dr!

It may cut down on the numbers of Canadians now coming to the US for their healthcare; our system will be just as bad as theirs if Hillary has her way.

Stop trying to argue about that which you do not know

that is totally unfair and is tantamount to complete censorship of all Liberals. Proud, you are going to have to cut them some slack on this.
Pssst -don't remind them of the Edwards and the other trial attorneys culpability in this.

WOW. That is hard real stuff.

"They waive the flag when you attack. When you come home, they turn their back"

Dave Klein

'The vaccine lines had to be shut down mid-cycle and they had to restart the whole lengthy process all over again, which didn't allow enough time to get vaccine to market prior to the inset of flu season'

and why was one company only given this contract?

Stop trying to argue about that which you do not know.

that would be the end of him on this blog. he would have to go back to massive cut and paste from Kos.

"Auto and health insurance are quite analogous"
not exactly in the most important feature. My auto insurance doesn't cover standard repairs like brakes, oil changes, tires. It is also portable. Additionally, I can choose any shop to do the work, jiffy lube or the dealer.

auto insurance is meant to cover catastrophic losses, not maintenence, and the decision maker is the consumer who ultimately pays.

consider Lasik surgery as the model for private medical care. the price is coming down and the quality is going up - wonder why - it is not covered under medical insurance.

drindl - I do not know why what I wrote at 4:27P was not clear - the Greenspan suggestion that Saddam had to be REMOVED because he wanted to get a chokehold on the oil ports MAKES NO SENSE because we and the RAF were boxing Saddam in successfully with no-fly zones, and there was no way Saddam could move troops or missiles or fighter planes to attack his neighboring Arab countries after 1992.
Read the Woodward article!

There was a shortage that year because of a production problem, IC, not because of some ridiculous demand all of a sudden. The vaccine lines had to be shut down mid-cycle and they had to restart the whole lengthy process all over again, which didn't allow enough time to get vaccine to market prior to the inset of flu season. Stop trying to argue about that which you do not know.

How ignorant of markets can a Lib get? answer - quite ignorant.

I remember when AT&T owned my phone.

"They make the "market" decisions for us. the consumer does not have (nor can they get) the knowledge necessary to make reasoned decisions from a "market" perspective."

That was then.

Mark, I somehow missed Greenspan's comments on Saddam. I liked everything he said about the lack of fiscal conservatives in the modern Republican party and what it was like to work with Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II.

MikeB, why can't we have a debate where we make points and then rebut those points? I'm trying very hard to have a civil debate with you. There remains 2 points you have to counter, your false claims of illegal immigrants being mostly to blame for the cost of health care and the number of identities stolen by illegal immigrants. If you can't talk like an adult using logic and facts I won't bother with you.

Proud, I would think that you'd be on the other side of this issue as a health care professional. Mandating medical and prescription insurance will protect others by lowering their bills in the same way that mandatory auto insurance does. Auto and health insurance are quite analogous.

'I also point out that when JD talks about clinic care for the poor he is talking about local property tax funded care inefficiently delivered using the most expensive hospital type service. How we deal with moving from treating the uninsured poor in the most expensive way possible to treatment by nurse practitioners in low overhead settings [where surgical or other radical intervention is not required] is the first question. '

And that is oneof the best ways to bring down costs, Mark. The cost of treatment of minor illnesses in emergency rooms not only inflates health care, but also means fewer resources are available for real emergencies.

I have done advertising work for some pharmaceuical companies [I have guidelines as to what I will accept] and they profit margins and advertising budgets are ENORMOUS--plus the ads also push people into asking for expensive new drugs that are no better than the old cheaper generics.

These are two of the basic issues.

Any patron who needs assitance with the already mentioned 40 page form, because of substandard government schools, can apply to the Chuck Schumer bureau of forms for assitance. this new 40 billion dollar agency will consider your request, After a suitable waiting periond, and we will determine if you qualify for government assistance in the way of filling out the forms required for the William Jeffferson Clinton aspirins we provide (AT NO COST TO YOU) thanks to the splendid new Hillary care you have been forced to enroll in.

If you do not hear from us within 180 days, please submit the paperwork again.

"It's too invasive and would restrict personal freedom and choice."

proud, glad that you're here. You've provided some insightful information on this in the past.

However, I have to disagree with the personal freedom and choice goals. It goes to the core of the "market solution" problem.

I consider "personal choice and freedom" to be an illusion when it comes to health care. The average American (non-HMO types) has a say in who they choose for a doctor, and which pharmacy dispenses their Rx's, but that's about the extent of it.

Beyond that, we are totally subject to the skill and ability of those employed in the health care system and have to trust those people.

It's not like "I didn't like Kellogg's Raisin Bran, so I'm going to try Post's this time." Other than not liking the salesman and clerks (the medical staffs), the consumer does not have (nor can they get) the knowledge necessary to make reasoned decisions from a "market" perspective.

Beyond "bedside/counterside" manner, we are totally at the mercy of the health care professionals. They make the "market" decisions for us.

'shut up IC - no one even wanted the stinkin flu shots until there was a shortage, and then all the cry-babies started howling about it just to blame President Bush.'

if no one wanted the shots, there wouldn't have been a shortage, would there? you gopers really just can't think, can you? youur brains are all damaged or you wouldn't beleive what you do.

I am sorry dear patron, since the advent of hillary-care, we no longer provide new or effective pharmacological drugs. Please take two Bayer, I mean, William Jefferson Clinton aspirin and send in your 40 page form in the morning. we will then bill the government $2600 for this service . thank you and call again.

JD and bsimon - We have had this discussion before and the three of us and others here are all skeptical of any plan that does not deal with cost containment by having a more rational delivery system. The inflation factor for health care is about 17% / yr and would continue at that pace whoever is the payer. Inflation has broken the employer based system and it would break a tax based system.

"The Economist" has some favorable words for Edwards' plan, which relies on the insurance industry in the end, along with some modest cost cutting - but admits that in three years the cost savings are GONE.

Daniel Patrick Moynihan believed that Canadian style federal single payer could not work in the USA - he pointed to the number of gunshot wounds in NYC emergency rooms, monthly, as exceeding the Canadian annual national total of gunshot wounds.

I also point out that when JD talks about clinic care for the poor he is talking about local property tax funded care inefficiently delivered using the most expensive hospital type service. How we deal with moving from treating the uninsured poor in the most expensive way possible to treatment by nurse practitioners in low overhead settings [where surgical or other radical intervention is not required] is the first question. Federalizing what is now paid for in property tax in your city simply adds another layer of bureaucracy without addressing the cost.

bsimon's point that we must move away from
employer based health care just to become competitive is well taken. But changing the structure will not solve the real problem. Health care is delivered inefficiently and at great cost.

signed: Mr. Gloom n' Doom.

'Well, for starters, vehicle insurance is mandated to protect the other guy!'

So are vaccines. Your ability to expose me to an epidemic has nothing to do with 'personal liberty' but personal responsibility. I thought you folks beleived in that?

And the administrative overhead on Medicare is only 3%, far lower than ANY private plan that has ever existed, or ever will.

There is far less bureaucracy in Medicare than in private plans. Completely moot argument.

shut up IC - no one even wanted the stinkin flu shots until there was a shortage, and then all the cry-babies started howling about it just to blame President Bush. Puleeze. give me a frickin break. The vaccination rate is so low that companies can't even break even making it...not to mention the liability they incur form some bleeding heart liberal agenda to 'protect' all those poor people who the evil drug companies crippled. not.

Dear Nancy,
As I am sure you are now aware, the surge has worked. That has made my proclamations that it was a failure, which I made long before it even started, seem a litle silly. On top of that, the pesky Republicans have torn a page from my old book and blocked everything in the Senate. I don't have the votes to pass a kidney stone. I am pretty much ineffective and neutered over here, although many think I always was. Since you are so much more manly than I, is there any hints or suggestions you could supply that would get me back on the front pages as a success instead of this ongoing appearance of a miserable old smelly failure? I would prefer to resign later next year instead of going to jail for my land deals or lose a humiliating election like my predecessor did. can you please help.

your friend and esteemed colleague,
Harry

"Oh wait, flu shots won't be available until next July." - Zouk

Well, we know which Administration is the model for that. Or have you forgotten so quickly, Zouk?

hat a bunch of b.s. -Clinton believes that an individual mandate is the only way to achieve health care for all.

The centerpiece of Clinton's "American Health Choices Plan" is the so-called "individual mandate," aka mandated, purchased health care for all. You and every other American will be required by Hillary decree to purchase health coverage, even if you don't want it.

But what happens if you don't? You go to the hospital and they turn yiu away? Not going to happen. This "plan" is a boondoggle.

It's too invasive and would restrict personal freedom and choice. Some of you may ask " if you need care insurance because you may wreck your vehicle, then why not health insurance?" Well, for starters, vehicle insurance is mandated to protect the other guy!

That's why it's liability insurance that is mandated in most states. To mandate health insurance is not only too intrusive into personal liberty, but also way too cumbersome and expensive to keep track of and administer. What next? The health insurance police?

"...first truthful thing you ever said on this blog."

That'd be at least one more than you, KOZ.

Can't wait to see the 40 page form hillary makes you fill out to get your birth control pills. or your flu shot. Oh wait, flu shots won't be available until next July. try back then.

In 1984 Mondale made health care a major issue; it didn't help him.

In 1988 Dukakis made health care a major issue; it didn't help him.

In 1992 Clinton made health care a major issue; his plan got blown out of the water.

In 2000 and 2004 Gore and Kerry tried to make health care a major issue; it didn't help them.

The question for any Democrat is, when is health care going to reach critical mass so that it is an Independent Vote getting issue?

Is that lady in Iowa the template voter; even though we, many of us anyway, ignore this at our peril?

There was a good discussion last week in Newsweek about how Hillary would lead and included a mea culpa about the healthcare debacle in the 90's.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20649206/site/newsweek/

Mr. Botstein, who wrote to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice in the hope of having the visa problem resolved before the music festival, said Ms. Ghuman's case is symptomatic. "This is an example of the xenophobia, incompetence, stupidity and then bureaucratic intransigence that we are up against," he said, also citing the case of a teacher of Arabic at Bard who missed the first weeks of the spring semester this year because of visa problems. "What is at stake is America's pre-eminence as a place of scholarship."

Ms. Ghuman is certainly not alone in her frustration. Academic and civil liberties groups point to other foreign scholars who have been denied entry without explanation at an airport, or refused a visa when they applied. A pending lawsuit by the American Civil Liberties Union contends that the Bush administration is using heightened security measures to keep foreign scholars out on ideological grounds in violation of the First Amendment rights of American scholars to hear them.

I have even sold Avon, for my admirers benefit. The health care plan being offered, is something I have not looked at closely as yet, but from early reports, it will be simular to Medicare. The part about everyone being required to have some kind/type of coverage is at best, vague. I prefer something that is close to a single-payer system, such as Medicare and Medicaid, which I have. The reduction of paperwork would reduce the administrative cost by using a single billing form for everything, Dr., hospital, x-ray, and all meds.

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/cats/thomas_kontogia/

wow

"So why was Thomas Kontogiannis, who's pled guilty to helping bribe Duke Cunningham, staying at a five-star Greek resort? Because the government told him to, prosecutors say. From The North County Times:

A federal judge allowed a New York man who has admitted bribing former North County U.S. Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham to remain free on bond, after an Assistant U.S. Attorney said at a hearing this morning that the man's recent trip to Greece was at the direction of federal agents.
U.S. District Judge Larry Alan Burns had called the hearing to learn whether the man, Thomas Kontogiannis, had traveled overseas without permission. Any such trip requires prior approval because Kontogiannis pleaded guilty earlier this year on a money laundering charge.

At today's hearing, Assistant U.S. Attorney Jason Forge said the trip was made at the government's behest.

"My understanding is that everything Mr. Kontogiannis did was not just 'with permission,' but at the direction of agents and other representatives of the government," Forge said
"

Is this true. WOW. Frickin republcians. You got a link. I'm sure I can find it. Help a player out.

If you look back at what Napoleon learned in Spain, what the French learned in Indo-China and Algeria, what the Soviets learned in Afghanistan, and what the U.S. learned in Vietnam, the lessons of history are clear: there is a limitation to military power. Economic, political and diplomatic challenges must be solved. They can't be solved by military means and they shouldn't be distorted by rhetoric.

Rhetoric, spin and slogans do not win wars. Likewise, the war in Iraq will not be won with charts, projections or sound bytes saying, "we will return on success."

The Administration claims we are witnessing another turning point in Iraq. They claim progress is being made and now depending upon the "conditions on the ground," more troops will come home.

But we have heard this before. The same predictions were made with Saddam's capture, the adoption of the constitution, with national elections, and with the capture and killing of several terrorists in Iraq.

A week ago on a Sunday talk show, a reporter expounded on a personal moment with the President in the White House when she asked him, "Mr. President, how do you continue to press forward when the war is so unpopular and things seem to be going so wrong in Iraq?" The President responded, "Because I am right."

Right about what Mr. President?
Right about weapons of mass destruction?
Right about Saddam's involvement in 9-11?
Right about mission accomplished?
Right about thinking he could fight this war on the cheap?
Right at the ease at which Iraq could be transformed into a pillar of democracy?

bsimon, as usual you are a voice of reason on this site

"The thing is, there is NO such thing as free health care. It will be paid for either out of taxes, companies, or your own pocket. Yes, there are many inefficiencies in the system, but I'm usually very skeptical of those 'self-licking lollipop' claims, ie, just get rid of the insurance companies and go to a single-payer model, and all will be bliss.

"

As it's been said. We are already paying for it. We are just not getting the benefeits. We pay more as a nation than other socialized nations. The wealthy just horde the profits and screw the rest of us. Sabotage.

'What little is out there now looks like irrational nonsense, including the esteemed Chairman's views.'

Which part Mark? He said the republicans had tthrown fiscal discipline out the window, and that bush didn't know nor did he care what the affect of his tax cuts for the wealthy did to the deficit and to the country's future. I can't argue with that, can you?

We Dems admit we were thoroughly outclassed by the General last week. we now realize that our efforts to surrender in the middle east are going nowhere. It seems the voters want to win the war more than the election. this leaves us in a quandry. we have staked our future on losing the war or the economy going down the tubes. If we have to confront our total lack of vision on any issues, we are doomed to an other 8 years in the wilderness.

Since we don't have the votes to imnplement our idiotic policies, we will continue to investigate and hope a single issue emerges which we can manipulate with the cooperation of the running dog lacky press. If all else fails, we will just have our stooges at moveon in coordination with the NYT buy the election with chinese money funneled through the Clinton campaign.

If any one out there has any ideas about how to win without America losing, we are desperate to find anything. Otherwise we will have to make all those empty campaign promises to the voters again and they will of course have to "suspend disbelief", hold their nose and vote for the American socialist party.

/Polls in the two nations that have suffered some of the worst of al-Qaeda's violence -- Afghanistan and Iraq -- show that more than 90 percent of those populations have unfavorable views of al-Qaeda and of bin Laden himself./

of course you don't post any links, zoukie, becasuse this is the exact opposite of what's happening.

"JasonL - I'll answer that...becasue we cannot affor to! Illegals, in the large numbers here, have had a disasterous effect on jobs,wages, and benefits. "

Don't forget housing and rental cost mikeb.

They didn't have any rights to the land, and there was no reason for anyone to grant them rights which they had not conceived and were not using . . . . What was it that they were fighting for, when they opposed white men on this continent? For their wish to continue a primitive existence, their 'right' to keep part of the earth untouched, unused and not even as property, but just keep everybody out so that you will live practically like an animal, or a few caves above it. Any white person who brings the element of civilization has the right to take over this continent.

"The Congressional Research Service report cited other concerns, such as "the apparent lack of a practical means to hold contractors accountable under U.S. law for abuses and other transgressions and the possibility that they could be prosecuted by foreign courts.""

SOUNDS LIKE THE SAME JUSTICIFICATION THE REPUBLCIANS ARE USING TO SPY ON AMERICANS. lIKE WE ARE BEING SPIED ON. rIGHT NOW by patriot act cronies sent here to detroy the conversation and or trick AMEricans into saying something that will get them in leagl trouble.

Free speech? American values? What have we become. The terrorist can do very little to us. only we can change us. Only americans can destroy america. Only americans can stop them FROM destroying OUR nation

Let's be clear about something - ANY of the Democratic plans are better than what the Republicants are offering... or rather, will offer (because they aren't talking about health care at all)!

Judge Crater:
"This is just pandering. If Edwards was actually foolish enough to propose such a bill it would be DOA. Everyone knows this. Who is he trying to suck up to?"

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Rudi Giuliani is pandering to the base when he ties Clinton's questioning of Petraeus to the MoveOn ad.

When the polls aren't going your way, you have to make news...

.

"sight unseen" hillary's vote on Iraq after ignoring intelligence estimates and conducting a poll instead.

Which is exactly what I thought. Which means the Republican candidates are now following the Clinton model.

HC has been going in the wrong direction for quite some time.
you mean hillary clinton (HC)?? - first truthful thing you ever said on this blog.

"sight unseen"

hillary's vote on Iraq after ignoring intelligence estimates and conducting a poll instead.

we're repugs, all we can do is attack dems with our typewriters -- we wouldn't dream of actually fighting -- we're too cowardly. typing is what we do.

JasonL and drindl - Regarding the esteemed Chairman,at 9:13A I wrote to lyle on the previous thread:

Greenspan's interview is reported by Woodward at

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/16/AR2007091601287.html?hpid=topnews

lyle, I stand corrected. It was Greenspan's OWN IDEA that toppling Saddam was necessary to keep Saddam from destabilizing oil markets.
-------------------------------------
Because Saddam relied upon oil revenue for his own wealth it is difficult for me to imagine Saddam so skewing oil production as to cut off his nose to spite his face.

But Greenspan saw him as wanting to control the Arab ports so Saddam would have his hand on the spigot. Why the no-fly zones were not a sufficient box for Saddam is nowhere in Greenspan's interview - if anyone has already read the book, please comment.

What little is out there now looks like irrational nonsense, including the esteemed Chairman's views.

' You are referring to the Blackwater, Haliburton, Kellogg Brown Root, etc. types?'

Well-heeled merceranies who are murdering innocent Iraqi citizens....

quote CC: "Hillary drives the conversation in the race" and the "race revolves around Hillary" Please, lets get real here. The media put H. Clinton up on its pedestal even before she announced she was running. The only conversation I hear among Democrats and Republicans is that most do not like her and don't want her as the Democratic nominee, let alone the President. I hope those who still support her will see the light and realize we don't need a re-hash of H. Clinton I. I do not want more than one-half of my life under a Bush/Clinton dynesty.

People in America and many other Western nations have expressed strong disapproval of bin Laden and al-Qaeda since the Sept. 11 attacks. What's new is the dramatic decline in his standing in majority-Muslim countries. Polls in the two nations that have suffered some of the worst of al-Qaeda's violence -- Afghanistan and Iraq -- show that more than 90 percent of those populations have unfavorable views of al-Qaeda and of bin Laden himself.

Meanwhile Dem primary voters are considering him as a VP choice for hillary. He represents their views on most measures very well.

Sorry to be OT:
"...he would propose a bill that would take away all health care coverage for the president, Members of Congress and political appointees until a bill is passed that delivers on the promise of universal care."

This is just pandering. If Edwards was actually foolish enough to propose such a bill it would be DOA. Everyone knows this. Who is he trying to suck up to?

On the other hand, it's way past time that the US attempted UHC. As everyone's premiums and deductibles will attest, HC has been going in the wrong direction for quite some time.

Ramstad (R-MN) makes it official: MN-3 is up-for-grabs in 2008. Local R bloggers are not optimistic about retaining this seat...

From the AP: ANAMOSA, Iowa - Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney panned Hillary Rodham Clinton's health care plan sight unseen Saturday, eager to remind voters she failed at "socialized medicine" once before.

Speaking to more than 160 people at a Republican fundraiser, Romney said he didn't expect anything new..."

"sight unseen" doesn't make me feel comfortable. Maybe if he'd just taken a little peek at it.

Pam Domer, 59, of Anamosa, liked Romney's approach. "I don't want the government running my health care," Domer said. "I would like to have choices that are affordable to me. I like free enterprise health care."

So free enterprise health care is just like going to the local Safeway or shoe store?

Maybe we can get doctors to operate using the CVS and Walgreen models.

We need proudtobeGOP for guidance on this.

' But I also think the gov't should make available inexpensive basic coverage by opening up medicare to people who want to pay in.'

I think that's a great idea and I would do it in a heartbeat.

We already spent all that money on corruption, graft, steak dinners, political donations to Democrats and improvements to our vacation houses.

anon coward writes
"What was one of the things GM tried to do in the latest contract negotiations with the UAW?

Get out of paying health care costs for retirees."

Which is a smart business move. The potential liability for all thos retirees is huge - though I don't recall the exact figure. GM is trying to transfer that liability to the UAW, which means paying the UAW some percentage of the projected costs & getting that liability off GMs books. The next step would be to do the same thing for their current employees.

Thinking off the top of my head, why not put the UAW in charge of healthcare for its members? They can potentially build a larger pool than any of the individual companies where their members work - further benefitting from economies of scale & driving down costs. Plus give a bit of return to their members for all those dues...

We are the unions, (soon to be the Hillary-care). we promise benefits and security. when the bill comes due, we let the government pay. what will the government do when the bill comes due, ask the government to pay it.

I am sure Hillary's fundraisers can make this look legal until she is out of office.

funny how all the union jobs are over-promising and then going broke. sounds just like the Dems plan.

"Let the civilians die - US and Iraqi."

U.S. civilians? You are referring to the Blackwater, Haliburton, Kellogg Brown Root, etc. types?

What was one of the things GM tried to do in the latest contract negotiations with the UAW?

Get out of paying health care costs for retirees.

Those of you who rail against national health care plans had better wake up. The train is leaving the station pulled by corporate America.

It's just a matter of time because that's how businesses compete domestically, and the model for global competition for developed countries.

If you want government out of it, you'd better come up with some realistsic proposals instead of just whining.

The war is aburden on our troops. Can't we just go back to sitting at home on our bases like we did during the clinton years. It was so much easier. Let the civilians die - US and Iraqi. we are Libs , we only care about ourselves and our easy lifestyle. and we want to win the election. don't let all the losing we like to do confuse you. We only like to lose wars.

Hillary's new health care proposal recalls Harry and Louise, who were so worried in the commercials by the health insurance industry, that her plan would lead to socialized medicine. They seemed like such a nice couple that they deserve an update:

http://ajliebling.blogspot.com/2007/09/harry-and-louises-golden-years.html

The United States may have "2.1 million men and women" in the armed forces, but 1.6 million of them have already served in Iraq or Afghanistan. Approximately 525,000 troops have served more than once. Additionally, all "38 of the Army's available combat units are deployed, have or are just returning or are already scheduled to deploy to Iraq, Afghanistan or elsewhere - leaving the U.S. without any available combat-ready units."

Joint Chiefs Chairman Peter Pace: Pace "is expected to advise President Bush to reduce the U.S. force in Iraq next year by almost half" and "is likely to convey concerns by the Joint Chiefs that keeping in excess of 100,000 troops in Iraq through 2008 will severely strain the military." [8/24/07]

Army Chief of Staff George Casey: "Right now we have in place deployment and mobilization policies that allow us to meet the current demands. If the demands don't go down soon, it will become increasingly difficult for us to provide the trained and ready forces." [8/20/07]

Commanding General Odierno: "We know that the surge of forces will come at least through April at the latest, April of '08, and then we'll have to start to reduce...we know that they will start to reduce in April of '08 at the latest." [8/26/07]

Army Secretary Peter Geren:"[T]he service's top official, recently said he sees 'no possibility' of extending the duty tours of US troops beyond 15 months." [8/30/07]

Former Secretary of State Colin Powell: "[T]hey can't keep this up at this level past the middle of next year, I would guess. This is a tremendous burden on our troops.'

McCain Falsely Claims Jones Report Doesn't Say Political Reconciliation Is 'Key' To Progress In Iraq
Yesterday on NBC's Meet the Press, host Tim Russert asked Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) about Maj. Gen. James Jones's report to Congress, which concluded that the U.S. presence in Iraq currently is conveying the impression of being an "occupying force." It also questioned the administration's approach of trying to achieve security before political progress:

RUSSERT: [Gen. Jones] said the current administration's thinking is that you cannot have political reconciliation without first having security. He says it's the opposite, that you cannot have security...

McCAIN: He doesn't say it's the opposite.

RUSSERT: ...unless you have political reconciliation.

McCAIN: Tim, I've known Jim Jones for 30 years. It's not what he's saying. What he's saying is we have to have now political progress; and he, like all of us, are very frustrated by the lack of political progress, that the Maliki government has not done the things we want them to do.

JD writes
"there is NO such thing as free health care. It will be paid for either out of taxes, companies, or your own pocket. Yes, there are many inefficiencies in the system, but I'm usually very skeptical of [the idea to get] rid of the insurance companies and go to a single-payer model, and all will be bliss."

I agree. I think there should be two goals: 1) detaching healthcare from employment; 2) universal, or near-universal coverage - which is not necessarily single-payer.

I think gov't mandated coverage is stupid. If you want to risk your house by not buying health insurance - that's your business. But I also think the gov't should make available inexpensive basic coverage by opening up medicare to people who want to pay in.

In short, a private-public hybrid has appeal. The question is how, outside of employment based groups, you can define large enough populations that premiums are low enough to be affordable to average joe.

So why was Thomas Kontogiannis, who's pled guilty to helping bribe Duke Cunningham, staying at a five-star Greek resort? Because the government told him to, prosecutors say. From The North County Times:

A federal judge allowed a New York man who has admitted bribing former North County U.S. Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham to remain free on bond, after an Assistant U.S. Attorney said at a hearing this morning that the man's recent trip to Greece was at the direction of federal agents.
U.S. District Judge Larry Alan Burns had called the hearing to learn whether the man, Thomas Kontogiannis, had traveled overseas without permission. Any such trip requires prior approval because Kontogiannis pleaded guilty earlier this year on a money laundering charge.

At today's hearing, Assistant U.S. Attorney Jason Forge said the trip was made at the government's behest.

"My understanding is that everything Mr. Kontogiannis did was not just 'with permission,' but at the direction of agents and other representatives of the government," Forge said.

Help Wanted
by BarbinMD
Mon Sep 17, 2007 at 07:46:02 AM PDT
It seems like it was only last week that David Petraeus told Congress about how well things were going in Iraq. Oh wait, it was. So perhaps some crack reporter will ask the White House about this:

But 10 days ago, his commanders in Baghdad began advertising for private contractors to work in combat-supply warehouses on U.S. bases throughout Iraq because half the soldiers who had been working in the warehouses were needed for patrols, combat and protection of U.S. forces.

"With the increased insurgent activity, unit supply personnel must continue to pull force protection along with convoy escort and patrol duties," according to a statement of work that accompanied the Sept. 7 request for bidders from Multi-National Force-Iraq.

Permalink :: Discuss (98 comments)

The first doctor gave her six months to live. The second and third said chemotherapy would buy more time, but surgery would not. A fourth offered to operate.

Karen Pasqualetto had just given birth to her first child last July when doctors discovered she had colon cancer. She was only 35, and the disease had already spread to her liver. The months she had hoped to spend getting to know her new daughter were hijacked by illness, fear and a desperate quest to survive. For the past year, she and her relatives have felt lost, fending for themselves in a daunting medical landscape in which they struggle to make sense of conflicting advice as they race against time in hopes of saving her life.

"It's patchwork, and frustrating that there's not one person taking care of me who I can look to as my champion," Ms. Pasqualetto said recently in a telephone interview from her home near Seattle. "I don't feel I have a doctor who is looking out for my care. My oncologist is terrific, but he's an oncologist. The surgeon seems terrific, but I found him through my own diligence. I have no confidence in the system."

I thought the 'uninsured' already had healthcare; it's called Medicaid. And for those making too much $ for Medicaid, there's SCHIP. And after that income band, seems to me that many people are choosing to buy material goods, especially if they're young and reasonably healthy already, instead of insurance. Plus, I've never heard of an emergency room refusing to treat an emergency due to lack of insurance.

The thing is, there is NO such thing as free health care. It will be paid for either out of taxes, companies, or your own pocket. Yes, there are many inefficiencies in the system, but I'm usually very skeptical of those 'self-licking lollipop' claims, ie, just get rid of the insurance companies and go to a single-payer model, and all will be bliss.

Hagel: "it's dishonest, it's hypocritical, it's dangerous and irresponsible"
by kos
Mon Sep 17, 2007 at 09:04:53 AM PDT
Hagel, talking about the Petraeus dog and pony show.

Maher: Isn't a dirty trick on the American people when you send a military man out there to basically do a political sell-job?"

Hagel: It's not only a dirty trick, but it's dishonest, it's hypocritical, it's dangerous and irresponsible. The fact is this is not Petraeus' policy, it's the Bush's policy. The military is -- certainly very clear in the Constitution -- is subservient to the elected public officials of this country.. but to put our military in a position that this administration has put them in is just wrong, and it's dangerous."

Permalink :: Discuss (108 comments)
Come on Hillary, you can do it!
by kos
Mon Sep 17, 2007 at 09:03:47 AM PDT
Dodd:

I am pleased to see that Senator Obama has followed my lead and committed to oppose any Iraq measure without a deadline. I urge him to make such a deadline meaningful and enforceable by co-sponsoring the Dodd Amendment which sets a firm deadline that is tied to funding. However, I remain deeply distressed that Senator Clinton has yet to state whether she will oppose an Iraq measure without a firm and enforceable deadline. Ending our involvement in this civil war will take conviction and leadership that is willing to stand up to the President - not political gamesmanship and vote counting.

Her silence is deafening.

Permalink :: Discuss (216 comments)

'WASHINGTON, Sept. 16 -- Senate and House negotiators said Sunday that they had agreed on a framework for a compromise bill that would provide health insurance to four million uninsured children while relaxing some of the limits on eligibility imposed by the Bush administration.

The compromise, which resembles a bill passed by the Senate with bipartisan support, sets the stage for a battle with President Bush, who has denounced similar legislation as a step "down the path to health care for every American."

VA-Sen: the actual numbers
by kos
Mon Sep 17, 2007 at 11:36:05 AM PDT
I wrote about this poll below, but I just got the actual numbers.

SurveyUSA for media clients. 9/14-16. Registered voters. MoE 3.5% (No trend lines)

Gilmore (R) 32
Warner (D) 60

Davis (R) 27
Warner (D) 62

Macaca (R) 37
Warner (D) 56

Those numbers are epically bad. Yeah, we need to guard against getting too cocky, but still, Warner looks more like a safe incumbent than he does a challenger for a Republican-held open seat.

Favorable/Unfavorable/Neutral/Unfamiliar ratings

Warner: 50/14/31/5
Allen: 40/34/20/6
Gilmore: 19/34/31/15
Davis: 13/10/31/46

Look at the George Allen. He's the highest profile Republican in the state, and the one with the highest favorable/unfavorable ratings (40/34), and he still can't crack 40 percent. He's certainly no shoo-in for the governor's mansion in 2009.

On the web: Mark Warner for Senate

Race tracker wiki: VA-Sen

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MoveOn hits Rudy back

JasonL - I'll answer that...becasue we cannot affor to! Illegals, in the large numbers here, have had a disasterous effect on jobs,wages, and benefits. Amercian busoinesses use them to win concessions from Amercian workers in bargaining for wages and benefits. Jobs like skilled carpenters that paid better than $20 an hour just six years ago now pay under $10 an hour. *ALL* of the construction trades have been similarly effected. Same for meat cutters and packers, virtually every unskilled and semiskilled job vailable. On the "legal" immigrant front, millions of guest workers take jobs from Amercian workers in high tech, engineering and computer programming, but also the sciences. It's a disgrace! A country that cannot or will not provide jobs and the basic necessities for life for it's own citizens has no reason nor excuse whatsoever for existance. That we can provide those thing for our own citizens and do not, is criminal. Every single illegal ought to be rounded up and deported, for every single illegal is a threat to an Amercian worker. Furthermore, we ought not allow any "legal" guest workers in who can take a job from an American worker. We can feel pity for the pluight of the poor of LAtin America, but that ought not sway us from our responsibility FIRST for our own citizens.

Jim Ramstad retires.

In another blow to House Republicans, Rep. Jim Ramstad (R-Minn.) is expected to announce his retirement this afternoon, according to Republican sources and media reports in Minnesota.

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Iraq's Interior Ministry has revoked the license of Blackwater USA, an American security firm whose contractors are blamed for a Sunday gunbattle in Baghdad that left eight civilians dead. The U.S. State Department said it plans to investigate what it calls a "terrible incident."

Iraqi authorities have issued previous complaints about shootings by private military contractors, according to a July report from the Congressional Research Service.

"Most recently, a news article discussing an incident in which a Blackwater guard shot dead an Iraqi driver in May 2007 quoted an Iraqi official's statement that the Iraqi Interior Ministry had received many previous complaints of civlian shootings involving Blackwater employees," the congressional service report said.

The Congressional Research Service report cited other concerns, such as "the apparent lack of a practical means to hold contractors accountable under U.S. law for abuses and other transgressions and the possibility that they could be prosecuted by foreign courts."

I told you. your lies cna never win against truth. Never. It is not only unlikely. It is impossible, over the long term.

"How do you resist liars? Speak the truth. How do you stop a war based on lies? It starts with the truth.

When we take away