Zouk, mortality rates among casualties in Vietnam were about 16% (360,000 KIA/WIA, 56,000 KIA) so an accurate analysis of Kerrys chances of surviving three injuries yields a result slightly better than 50/50, sorry. Just a suggestion, if you stop watching the idiots on Fox, you'll stop getting all that skewed data and your posts might make more sense.
The first claim by the not-so-swifties, Kerry falsified records to get his medals, fairs little better than Zouks statistical analysis.
The commendations were awarded after the navy investigated, interviewing as many Americans who were present that day as were available based on the commanding officers After Action report.
The only Swiftboater who was there on the day Kerry won the medal in question now claims they did not come under enemy fire. (The basis of their complaint Kerry lied to get his medals). The only problem with that is the accuser also received a medal, for his actions on that day, for heroism under enemy fire. He claims he never read the fine print on his commendation.
For most folks, that stretched the bounds of credulity past the breaking point. Hopeless partisans, of course, don't have such doubts.
To be fair, it IS pretty obvious Kerry inflated his war stories (Christmas eve in Cambodia for example), but if that is a crime every VFW post in America will have to be turned into a jail.
In answer to the question, "When will Robert Novak die", probably not in our lifetimes. Sorry Virginia, but it's one of the benefits of selling your soul to Satan.

Chris, you have one major fact wrong. Despite his backtracking on the matter, the fact is that Pickens challenged anyone to prove ANYTHING the SBVT charged in 2004 wrong. Not just the ads.

This was confirmed in writing by people who were there.

As to skime's claim that "the veterans who served with John Kerry in swiftboats in the Vietnam War had the facts on their side," the fact is that not a single one of their claims has been proven true. Not a single one.

As a matter of fact, most if not all of their claims have been disproven.

For instance:

http://homepage.mac.com/chinesemac/kerry_medals/truth.html

You show me your's and I'll show you mine - lets have both Bush and Kerry show all their military records - we might be surprised to find that both of them are not telling the truth - and that this whole political system of ours sucks

Swiftboated

Sometimes the media make heroic efforts to subordinate evidence to their political inclinations. They even invent clever phrases or terms to encapsulate their efforts, like "swiftboated." This term suggests, with a knowing wink to fellow-thinkers, that a political favorite has been clobbered with distortions. As in " Kerry was swiftboated".

The problem is that the veterans who served with John Kerry in swiftboats in the Vietnam War had the facts on their side. This is not to say that everything they said was spot on, or that their criticism was or was not in proper proportion to its importance. Each detail and the way the Swiftboaters' criticisms were used in the 2004 campaign are proper subjects for inquiry and critical analysis. But, taken all together, the evidence on Kerry's behavior in combat, in the manipulation of the medal-awarding process and his detachment date, and in his activities on returning home supports the opinions and conclusions of the Swiftboaters.

Bush, of course, did not see combat at all. And Kerry's behavior as a Vietnam War protester falls in the category of political activity that could and would be interpreted and reported in various ways. These realities made the swift boat veterans' revelations annoying and inconvenient, especially to the majority in the media that hated to see such devastating testimony from a near-sacred source--combat veterans. Unable to gainsay the criticisms, they simply dissed them. "Swiftboated" was born.

Swiftboated

Sometimes the media make heroic efforts to subordinate evidence to their political inclinations. They even invent clever phrases or terms to encapsulate their efforts, like "swiftboated." This term suggests, with a knowing wink to fellow-thinkers, that a political favorite has been clobbered with distortions. As in " Kerry was swiftboated".

The problem is that the veterans who served with John Kerry in swiftboats in the Vietnam War had the facts on their side. This is not to say that everything they said was spot on, or that their criticism was or was not in proper proportion to its importance. Each detail and the way the Swiftboaters' criticisms were used in the 2004 campaign are proper subjects for inquiry and critical analysis. But, taken all together, the evidence on Kerry's behavior in combat, in the manipulation of the medal-awarding process and his detachment date, and in his activities on returning home supports the opinions and conclusions of the Swiftboaters.

Bush, of course, did not see combat at all. And Kerry's behavior as a Vietnam War protester falls in the category of political activity that could and would be interpreted and reported in various ways. These realities made the swift boat veterans' revelations annoying and inconvenient, especially to the majority in the media that hated to see such devastating testimony from a near-sacred source--combat veterans. Unable to gainsay the criticisms, they simply dissed them. "Swiftboated" was born.

Novak was kicked off his television program but likes to keep his name in the news; hence, make a disproven claim. Forget him. He is a jerk.

When will the Dem learn to unite against those evil neocons to take our country back from the corrupted and vicious Republicans? Do the Dem still remember the hanging chad? the Scalia intervention? the swift-boat attack? the Valerie plame leak?
the Florida disenfranchising movements?and etc. Democrats,you have to be stupid not to understand who is behand the recent Novak story. He is trying to divide the Dem, that is the only chance they can win in 2008.Let us unite and not to tear each other apart!

Obama's surging ahead in Iowa poll:

http://abcnews.go.com/images/PollingUnit/1051a1IowaDems.pdf

Both Wolfson and Penn of the Clinton camp are noted to be 'Karl Rove'-like, so this whisper campaign started by the Clinton camp is not surprising.

Hmm. ratings or a Republican agenda.

Is Robert Novak acting as an "agent" for the Republican Party, in the attempt of creating a feud within the Democratic Party?

http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=1018

.

zwrite2: The story about Mrs. Wilson [V. Plame] being under cover has been pretty well squashed by the media. This is tantamount to treason in a time of war. How many people have been hurt, even killed, will never be known. I doubt if there is a statue of limitation on this, and one of the lawyers should know. I think when a change is made at the WH in 2009 this will be on the minds of many.

POOR DEMS HAVENT GOT A CLUE. EVERYONE KNOWS IF YOU WANT TO KNOCK OUT TWO OPPONENTS WITH JUST ONE BLOW, YOU SICK ONE ON THE OTHER. THEN THEY FIGHT EACHOTHER AND LOOK STUPID FIGHTING OVER NOTHING.

I AM ASHAMED TO ADMIT WE DID THIS ALL THE TIME IN MY OFFICE.

Ok, that's it, I am taking my ball and leaving the Playground. You know Mr. Novak claimed that he had found Valerie Plame's identity through public domain information. We all know now that Armitage was the leaker. Plame was not a NOC. Damage that was done ruined Plame's career.

A threat was created to every contact and organization she had worked over the years in the past, today and into the future. Perhaps neocons want to damage or discount public servants working on non-proliferation for what purpose, accusations to apply Powell Doctrine ?

As a matter of principle, I don't want to be associated with swiftboaters and rats that will swim from the ship in a heartbeat. Problem is that many entities will not say no to these people creating chaos, conflict or gotcha moments for ratings.

If Obama learned anything then he should have learned not to be reactionary. Armchair quarterbacking this most recent of charades leads me to believe some are really scared, a flinch in evidence by numerous parties. Of course Novak would have to claim an informant very inside the Clinton campaign. But he probably won't name that party unless he gets hard up for ratings again.

Cya, wouldn't want to be ya. God bless and fair thee well.

femalenick - "The term "swiftboating" should be used when talking about the media as well as about the fools who ran the ads -- and in that order. The real tragedy, it seems to me, is the media's continued, irresponsible habit to report on each other's unsubstantiated stories, worsened when they give a public forum for the fools who make the unsubstantiated claims."

Actually, I find it a lot more troubling that the media, in cahoots with Democratic operatives and a producer that seemed to considered it her personal mission to expose George Bush, concoct a fabricated story and broadcast it less than a month before the election on the CBS evening news with Dan Rather. Do you think that if Kerry would have won, we would be using the term "Rathering" or "Memoing" instead of "Swiftboating"?

ROBERT NOVAK INCOMPETENT

Why would anyone believe a word in a column written by the incompetent Robert Novak?

One of the underreported stories of the Valerie Plame scandal was the sheer incompetence of Robert Novak. Remember, his "source" on the leak did not even know he was the source for several months.

That source, Richard Armitage, had followed the controversy closely. Yet, it didn't occur to him until Novak's follow-up column that he was the source because all Armitage did was make an offhand comment at the end of a one-hour dinner meeting.

Armitage knew his offhand comment could not be authenticated and was merely third-hand gossip. A professional -- and Novak is not -- would have at minimum made some sort of attempt to confirm the gossip and used them as sources.

Phoning Karl Rove and asking "have you heard" and using Rove's "I heard that too" response as his second source was also unprofessional.

Neither Armitage nor Rove was a reliable source on the Plame issue, at least not based on what they told Novak.

As a reporter, I hear people make offhand comments all the time and have NEVER, not once, used them.

Novak is prominent because he is aggressive and knows a lot of important people. That does NOT translate into reportorial competence.

Novak was incompetent on the Plame issue and was again incompetent on this Obama story. He's an ideologue with an agenda, not a reporter.

Thank you.

"Any injury, however slight, incurred under fire, that requires treatment by medical personnel gets a Purple Heart."

"Under fire", a circumstance under which an after action report would be filed. So much for purple heart #1.

As to Kerry's COMPLETE military records, as of this posting, The Washington Post has yet to lay their collective eyes on them...nor do they appear to be particularly interested in correcting that "inconvenient" truth.

Keepers of the "Watergate" flame? My ***.

Novak is a douchebag but the stuff he printed about Plame was correct eventhough he should of gone to prison for it. I total despise the man, but his reporting has been accurate over his 50 years in the business. I was telling people two weeks ago, with Hillary playing the gender card and Bill saying the guys are swiftboating her, that she was running scared. And every day Penn would come out with these crazy statements like Republican women would vote for Hillary and her sending in additional workers to Iowa, I knew her internal polling was telling her she was losing. And based on this new poll, I can see why they might try to swift boat Obama. But Obama called them out and said put up or shut up. So now even if they had something on him, the blowback would hit Clinton very hard and doesn't play especially well in Iowa.

Novak is a douchebag but the stuff he printed about Plame was correct eventhough he should of gone to prison for it. I total despise the man, but his reporting has been accurate over his 50 years in the business. I was telling people two weeks ago, with Hillary playing the gender card and Bill saying the guys are swiftboating her, that she was running scared. And every day Penn would come out with these crazy statements like Republican women would vote for Hillary and her sending in additional workers to Iowa, I knew her internal polling was telling her she was losing. And based on this new poll, I can see why they might try to swift boat Obama. But Obama called them out and said put up or shut up. So now even if they had something on him, the blowback would hit Clinton very hard and doesn't play especially well in Iowa.

vwcat: Have not drank any koolaid for about two weeks, I have in front of me, four ounces of Vodka, Bottled water, ice cubes, and Tomato juice with hot sauce. Tastes pretty good. Everyone knows opposition research is done by all of these folks, and whether or not someone told Novak does not matter. This is a hit job on Hillary, and they will continue for they "FEAR" her the most in the General. They do not "FEAR" Obama for they know they can beat him, that is why they are, to a large degree, supporting him. Look for more of this type junk in the coming weeks.

"Some people say," Novak is a bloodsucking political vampire who subsists on the bodily fluid of premature babies. That comment is just as well sourced as a Novak column.

I am a democrat and What amazes me is how willfully blind the Hillary supporters are.
they don't accept that Hillary deals with republicans when she is looking to do some dirty politiking. And yes, she does do it.
She has fundraiser by Murdoch, usually goes through Drudge to have her dirty stuff posted and so, it's not unusual for her to go to Novack. And she does this through operatives like Chris Lehane. Actually the Clinton MO is to use the other side to keep it from tracing back to them knowing democrats are just gullible enough to blame the messenger rather than who is behind it.
And with her rally call of a RW conspiracy the dems readily overlook the things connected with her and especially when she is dealing with the rightwing.
Fact is, like him or hate him, Novack has been on the Washington beat for 50 years.
he may be the prince of darkness but, he is not stupid. he would never just make this up. And Hillary knows democrats hate him for the Plame thing that they will look only at him and not behind him.
Hillary got caught doing dirty slime to Obama and he called her on it.
Good for Obama and bad for Hillary.
I suggest the Hillary supporters put down the koolaid and grow up.

Hello, milbrooks27 - not to defend sexual harassment, but to define slander. Clinton denying what we all gather he did can't be disproved, and even if it could, it can't be slander, because slander has to be "positive" in the sense that there's evidence to enable a defense against an accusation of slander in a court of law. In short, false denials are lies that aren't slanderous.

You have to give the Clintons credit. If she wanted to throw Obama under the bus, then Hillary picked the right person to do it. Just ask Valerie.

Right on, femalenick, write on!

morningglory: Please reference an article by Bob Novak that was found to be fabricated.

Anyone that believes a word out of Novak's mouth is a FOOL!
Novak gives NO sources for his made up garbage and Repubs suck it up.

The latest Iowa poll ABC/WaPost has Obama ahead. This has been the third time one of the top three has lead in the past few weeks. I think Edwards is all but finished everywhere and his support is going mainly to Obama. This will keep Obama in the race until February when it is decided for Hillary.

Anyone that believes a word out of Novak's mouth is a FOOL!

Well, the most recent poll number, just released by ABC, apparently explain what is going on. Barka Obama is *ahead* of Clinton is Iowa by 2 points already and has some momentum going. The gain was amoungst independent and older voters.The smear campaign was designed to put questions in the minds of voters about the integrity of Mr. Obama - an area that the polling numbers show to be the casue of Clinton's percipitous drop. Other good news, Clinton is sliding nationally, too...rapdily! It looks like Obama can catch her. If my candidate, John Edwards, bows out after Iowa or NH (I still hope he wins one, but that is a small, frail hope, now) and tosses his support to Obama, the momentum will sweep the Clinton folk off the map. GO OBAMA!

Wolfson is one of the sleeziest political operatives out there. His assertion that Novak fabricated this story is ludicrous. Novak did not get to the position he is by making up stories. He is considered one of the most credible political reporters out there, albeit for the "bad guys". He is kind of a "Bob Woodward" for the conservatives. It is clear Hillary's camp is playing dirty politics again -- they must be getting nervous about Iowa.

"...name some liberal slander..."
uh, vegasgirl, the names Paula Jones, Annita Broaderick, Jennifer Flowers all come to mind. It matters very little to me that they were used by Republican operatives as a part of the Clinton smear campaign. What matters is that from all available evidence, what hey had to say was true. They had been groped, abused, even raped by a man who was President and his wife, used every dirty trick imaginable to demean and defame them all. Paula Jones and the "drag a dollar through a trailer court" comment comes to mind. Ms. Clinton has engaged in all sorts of slander including the underhanded attacks against Barak Obama using Bob Novak as a useful fool.

Of course, you can always claim that conservative women, Republican women, women are aren't a part of your feminist elite, are not deserving of protection nor public outcry for being groped, molested, publicly humiliated...

Again, how can you defend the actions of a guttersnipe like Hillary Clinton?

Proud: "Truthful Allegations" is what we have here in the Novak piece, I have no doubt everyone is not perfect and each campaign has dirt on the other. Once again the "Fear Factor" is being played by opponents of Hillary. I have said many times they will use anything they can think of to stop her, and this is no different than the media playing the drivers license fiasco of an earlier debate. Again, I have found not one of the media in support of Hillary, and by the same token, they support Rudy close to 100%. Makes me wonder what happened to "The Liberal Media", for it seems to have disappeared.

parents not parent (sorry)

Parent? You know how a birthday party for little ones is best when it's not too long, being better to run out of time than to run out of activities? Wish it were 2008, or better yet, 2009. Hate to see the Dems fighting.

Novak is a scummy gossip columnist, sure, but thing is, he is usually CORRECT with his facts.

Based on that and Clinton's response(s), I think the story is probably founded.

It strikes me that many of you on this board suffer from a complete lack of common sense. do you honestly think that hillary clinton has not created an oppositions research folder on Obama and edwards - the nastier the better.? She will use it if and when she needs to use it. this is now established practice on both sides, although the clintons seemed to have originated the practice and perfected it.

common sense item number 2: Do you know what the probability of getting shot in vietnam one time and living to see morning - about 33% last I checked. That is 66% of wounded soldiers die. now if we consider that getting shot is independent each time you get shot - then the chance of getting shot three times and living, is .33 x .33 x .33 = 0.035. Now that is lucky. Or perhaps something else is involved. when you consider the movie camera, the bragging, and everything else, including still not releasing his military record years after promising to do so on MTP, I smell a rat. Or you could willingly lift the vail of disbelief and think hillary is honest, John Kerry is actually a hero, etc.

Wasn't novak holding onto the names of unsourced people in the Plame case. Seems plausible he would do it again, especially considering the believability of the storyline. I generally don't trust unsourced ideas, but in this case, i would assume ti to be true on its face with no source necessary. I suppose Obama and Edwards ahve fioles on hillary to, but she is asbestoes when it comes to accusations. We have heard it so much, everyone just shrugs. amazing. corruption and lying as the norm. gotta be a Dem for this one.

The term "swiftboating" should be used when talking about the media as well as about the fools who ran the ads -- and in that order. The real tragedy, it seems to me, is the media's continued, irresponsible habit to report on each other's unsubstantiated stories, worsened when they give a public forum for the fools who make the unsubstantiated claims. It's one thing for those who wish to spend millions to buy ad time to spread their lies, it's another thing when the media gives them free air time to propagate outlandish claims rather than taking time to find the truth.

What Americans should be worried about is the state of American media and its continued decent into infotainment versus hard core news reporting and investigative journalism. We, the public, are the ones being swiftboated by the media on a regular basis - and it is this to which we should put a stop.

"Proud: You need some pills from the RX only meds. Being nasty is out of your line."

lylepink- I see you have quickly adopted the Clintonian strategy of changing the subject upon hearing truthful allegations. Just like in the last debate, Edwards called on Hillary to explain her change of mind regarding NAFTA and driver's licenses for illegals and she responded by calling it "mudslinging".

The problem is not with the public's interpretation when they see the ugly handwriting on the wall about Hillary's true character.

Even her former supporters in Hollywood now deem her a "serial liar". But just keep repeating those slogans, lyle. We would expect no less.

Whetrher the Swiftboat ads were true or false is a distraction from the real issue: Kerry was there and Bush wasn't.

Every single person on the boat with Kerry, more than a few of whom are lifelong republicans, backs up his version of events. The US military supports Kerry's version of events. None of the so-called "swiftboat veterans" were actually with Kerry when the events that served as the basis for his medals occurred.

Anyone that thinks there's a controversy about John Kerry's war record is either a complete moron or a horrific human being. There is plenty that one can disagree with Senator Kerry about, from both the left and the right. Heck, I'm fine with criticizing the guy for his hard core anti-war stance AFTER his service. And there's no doubt he ran a lousy campaign and is hardly the worlds most inspiring politicians.

But he didn't deserve the smear that was the "swift boat" campaign. It's sickening to me that anyone is still pretending that that was acceptable to do to ANYONE. And FYI, I've long felt the same way about what GWB did to John McCain in the 2000 primary, which was completely out of bounds as well.

"Isn't it amazing that we have people complaining about the Swift Boat ads, but totally glossing over the Michael Moore movie of the same ilk.
Why is that? Slander by Liberal seems to be accepted, while slander by Conservative is not."

Please sir, come up with some examples of "liberal slander."
We're waiting ...

bsimon: "The Obama campaign would have been smarter to criticize Novak for making stuff up than try to score a hit on Clinton. Establishing Novak as an uncredible hack will pay off far more in the long term than an unprovable allegation against the Clinton campaign."

Well said, bsimon. After what Novak did against V. Plame, why anyone would believe anything he writes is laughable. It's a pity the Dems attack each other, rather than truly debate issues.

Proud: You need some pills from the RX only meds. Being nasty is out of your line.

" who's pulling the strings with the anti-Romney push-polling in NH?"

It's being done by an outfit with connections to Rudy's campaign. Bit I've not heard any such about Clinton. Got links, MikeB?

'Today on Fox News, Novak said this has nothing to do with the Republicans. His sources are, so to speak, friends of friends, and all Democrats.'

But as many here have pointed out, Novak is a lying partisan scumbag. So what difference jdoes it make what he said? He is a hack.

'I'm sorry, but no self-respecting Democrat would speak to Novak, much less give him juicy political gossip.'

Exactly, Jenn. Nobody connected to Clinton's campaign would get near Novak - he's actively loathed by Dems. It just Rove's fingerprints all over it.

On the T. Boone Pickens v Kerry piece. I can't find the part of Pickens' bio concerning military service. Can anybody send some links?

::::Pay close Attention people::::

Who is gaining the benefit of the Swiftboat style of politics? The would be Hillary. John Edwards is the only person calling her out on her dirty neo-conservative ways.

Edwards and Obama are criticizing Hillary on issues such as healthcare, voting for the resolution that could lead to war in Iran, and her desire to continue the conflict in Iraq...

Hillary can not pull off the Swiftboat Ad campaign without the help of the mainstream media. Just ask Dan Rather!

It is the neo-conservatives within the media system that are firing a warning shot over Barak Obama's head to frighten him.

Hillary is all about the bribes, rigging of the political structure, and corruption of the balances of government.

We can not take another 4 or 8 years of the isolated form of Presidency that we see with Bush.

Interesting... There's a new article on an ABC/Wash Post poll - showing Obama leading in IA, then Clinton, then Edwards...

It's the electorate that gets hosed with swift boating. Everybody is taking about everything, but the issues.

Any legitimate candidate regardless of affiliation should adamantly renounce those groups without considering whom they support.

.
One has to wonder, what was the role of Lusty Larry "Widestance" Craig in Novak's article - since douchebag Novak's "source" for most of his slime is stuff scribbled on men's room walls.

.

Novak is the Conrad Dobler of politics.

Doebler was a football player who went around the field riling up players with, "Do you know what so-and-so said about you?" By repeating this throughout a game Dobler succeeded in stirring up an eventual fight at critical moments in a game, penalizing the other side, and sometimes ejecting a player. He was also known as the dirtiest player in the league, even 30 years later.

Novak is a proven traitor and long time provacateur of the right.

I honestly can't believe why Obama's staff fell for this BS, whether you like Hillary or not, look at the source of the story. Pure disinformation.

Jonathon Chait's "The Big Con", the 1st chapter of which is online at NYTimes.com, tells why the GOP must swiftboat the Dems to get elected. It's well-researched not a polemic despite the title. Trouble for the GOP is all their positions are popular with only a minority of us. The Dem positions poll more than 50% on every issue. The Repubs have no choice but to run on something other than the issues. Character is what they choose, because it's easily smeared. Both presidential nominees are, of course, vetted by their parties. The voters nonetheless try to know them through the media. Fascinating and illuminating reading.

Isn't it amazing that we have people complaining about the Swift Boat ads, but totally glossing over the Michael Moore movie of the same ilk.
Why is that? Slander by Liberal seems to be accepted, while slander by Conservative is not.
When the Democrats can once again learn to speak the whole truth on matters, I will return to the fold.
In the meantime, even Bush is better than what is being offered too us, and we all know it. We're just not willing to be totally honest bout that either, or we?

Okay, first off: Novak did not revise his "sourcing" information. The original column said that Clinton "agents" were spreading word that they possessed scandalous info on Obama.

Second: Novak is undoubtedly partisan, but that does not make him a hack. He is a pretty well-sourced guy; laugh about Plame all you want, but he didn't get it wrong.

Finally: We will not soon get "Swift-boated" out of the political lexicon, but the fact is that John Kerry did not lose because he was swift-boated. He lost because he was a god-awful candidate; the election was his to lose against an unpopular president during an unpopular war, and he managed to do it. Does anyone seriously think that his defeat (admittedly by a small-ish margin) is attributable to voters beginning to wonder whether his 35-year-old military record was legit? (Or that this somehow hurt him more than Dan Rather's forged documents claiming that Bush ducked his service obligations altogether hurt Bush?) No. He lost because he was bad enough to lose a race that he should have won. Democrats need to spend less time whining hysterically about those mean Republicans and their nasty tactics, and more time finding successful candidates who can connect to American voters.

"the Cornpone Narcissus was NO help at all"


What's amazing is that he's back for more - and could very well win Iowa.

"Swift boat" still a shibboleth? The Dummos lost the election fair & square...and the Cornpone Narcissus was NO help at all (too bad Kerry got stuck with him).

This is a test: Novak, douchebag of liberty

Why does anyone believe Novak?

At last! I knew it was only a matter of time before "code lylepink" chimed in with his ever present and nauseating defense of Clinton. Sure, lyle, blame it on unknown campaign workers. That's rich. ha ha ha

We can use common sense to see that Hillary is a liar and a cheat, and will try to win at all costs. No new revelation there. Just because Novak is lower than a snake's belly doesn't mean Hillary isn't a dirtbag too.

I suggest a little common sense be used about this matter. Each and every campaign has many poeple working for them, and no way in hades does everyone know what everyone else is doing at any given time. The Obama and Clinton folks did what they thought was best and should leave it alone unless someone tries to push it further.

The Clinton assertion that they had nothing to do with this article would be believable had the campaign responded with outrage toward Mr. Novak immediately demanding that he retract his story in light of the scurrilous tactics it implies about the Clinton campaign. Instead, Mr. Obama is the one who is blamed for responding to a published headline connecting him to scandal as overreating. This headline is can be officially considered mudslinging, not the disputes in policy that Edwards and Obama raised in the debate. For me this just underscores Hillary's inability to in identify ethical behavior. Not a character we need in our next president.

So, if something does emerge from the Clinton camp before Iowa, Wolfson can be called a liar. So, does the Obama reaction, while sounding premature and "taking the bait," actually provide a counter-argument, distraction, when a revelation does occur down the road, i.e., not only are they slinging mud, but they lied when they said they didn't have anything?

The test of truth is whether something helps your friends and hurts your enemies. Of course, this applies only in your own cause. If anyone else applies such a criterion, bash them for cynical, immoral, partisanry. If you can fool 30% of the people all the time and 30% much of the time, that's good enough. The other 30% can go eat grass. It also helps if a wealthy oil & LBO lord can subsidize your ads.

Remember the Obama of the beginning of the campaign? The uniter, not the divider? Well, that left him 20 points down, so now he's going for the divider thing. "Swift boating"? This is not Swift boating. There's no charge here. This is that awful verb I can't write here, that was popularized by Donald Segretti and CREEP: rat mating, let's say. It's easy. Put out a charge. Blame it on somebody else. Watch them fight. See: the Canuck letter. The smart-ass press saying, Oh, Muskie's a sissy! He's crying! Or maybe not, but who cares. The Canuck letter was false, written by somebody at CREEP.

Here, you smear Obama with... something, and watch Obama take the bait, attacking not Novak, but Clinton. "I'm the divider, not the Uniter." I guess that's something David Axelrod, his campaign manager, learned from the Daley machine.

all you who say clinton should have done this or obama should have done this are missing the point of campaign advisors

these advisors, chief strategist, campaign managers, communication directors know what they are doing. they get paid for it. they know how to handle a situation in a way that will correspond with their message or attract good attention from the public

ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION; Pressure all candidate to take an enforcement first approach. Join non-partisan NumbersUSA
http://numbersusa.com/index

What kind of "journalist" are you, Chris, to give Novak a pass on this kind of "journalism?" Does the Post have a left-leaning columnist who would stoop to this level of high-school rumor-mongering? What a pathetic group our elite media has become.

T Boone Pickens owes somebody that million dollars, because the Navy Corpsman who helped make the ad, in the ad said that he was the Corpsman who treated Kerry for his injury. Any injury, however slight, incurred under fire, that requires treatment by medical personnel gets a Purple Heart. That's why the medal is some times called the dumdass medal, because any dumbass who leaves his sticking up where it can get shot still gets a Purple Heart. Since the Medic contradicted himself in his own ad, HE WAS LYING.

OK T Boone, pay up!.

Might we see a repeat of '04 when the Dem candidates got so heated with each other that their rhetoric eventually provided key ammo to the GOP in the general? It's headed down that road.

http://www.political-buzz.com/

When is Novak going to die?

I'm sorry, but no self-respecting Democrat would speak to Novak, much less give him juicy political gossip. He's a traitor. It would be like the Republicans dishing on Giuliani, to, I dunno, Kos. (I am NOT calling Kos a traitor or the liberal equivalent of Novak. There just is no equivalent to Novak, so I went with someone Republicans hate.)

Bob Novak is nothing more than a skunk. He was behind the Valerie Plame incident and got away with it.

Simply stated, the only people who believe him and "swift boat" garbage are the dumbest of the dumb brainwashed neo-con zombies.

The Washington Post will never be on the top of my list of papers until they do away with trash like Bob Novak.

Obama's campaign staff is obviously clueless.

All a senior person had to do was pick up the phone and call a senior person on Senator Clinton's campaign staff.

Instead, based on the completely worthless word of a pusillanimous, old shill, they set off a needless and senseless brouhaha that left Obama looking like a rank amateur.

Obama needs to understand that Novak is not on his side. And not on Senator Clinton's, either. Novak is simply a trouble-making geriatric doing the bidding of his masters at Eagle/Regnery.

It's interesting to read the comments between Kerry and Pickens. Kerry says, "You said all I have to do is disprove one thing, I'm ready to do that, get your checkbook ready." Pickens replies, "I'll need access to all your diaries and tapes etc., etc. and if you lose you'll owe $1 million." It seems to me that establishes right away who thinks they are right, and who is a man of his word. Pickens may be rich, but he didn't get that way by offering a fair deal, evidently.

Senator Obama did exactly the right thing - he did not accuse the Clinton campaign exclusively, he said whether the Clinton campaign, other Democratic campaigns, Republican campaigns, or other persons, be on notice, the Obama campaign does not participate in this kind of stuff. BRAVO!!

Obama '08

What's striking about Democrats is the free ride Rudy has gotten considering the Washington monthly story on his abuses. What Democrats don't get is the "Swift Boat" story is about a candidate who knew that negative information and a motivated Veteran constituency was out there and both told no one about it and campaigned on a short, hoary war record right into the teeth of it (while cravenly abandoning his peace bona fides for AIPAC's war).
Blaming the other guys for you not getting in front of your negatives will lose again.

Today on Fox News, Novak said this has nothing to do with the Republicans. His sources are, so to speak, friends of friends, and all Democrats.

So Obams was right and not inexperienced or naive. Clinton should put up or shut up. Something she doesn't know how to do.
Stay in the middle, triangulate, attack with slime (worse than mud!).

Well, Clinton, do you or didn't you? Inquiring minds want to know.

Obama has shown his true self in his response to Novak: He is a man of integrity, strength, and truth. Only a man who was sure of himself would call on others to bring out whatever they say they have. To my mind, the article only serves to remind voters of the types of nasty strategies we all know are part of 'politics as usual'. No matter where it came from- Good for Obama for standing up to this!

T Boone Pickins is a scurrilous partisan hack who has more money than brains and was one of the architects of the swift boat liars.

bsimon - The Romney smear campaign has been tracked back to outfits connected with both the Guliani and Clinton campaigns. Now, Guliani's campaign would be involved for obvious reasons, but no one understands why the Clinton campaign is involved, but they are! Operatives of "her" campaign have been digging up dirt on Romney and his family, past business partners, some sort of bribery scandle that took place during the Salt Lake Olympics and connections between that and the Mormon Church, and quite a bit more. That is where the information is coming from. That much is indiputatable. No one right now understands why.

" who's pulling the strings with the anti-Romney push-polling in NH?"

Romney gets to cry foul every time someone brings up the subject of his Mormonism; he gets to label all his opponents Un-American and invoke his right constitutional rights on the stump. It's win/win for him on this issue, so why not blame him for the polling? He's got enough money to pay the entire city of
Bangalore to dial those numbers, that's for sure.

Novak this morning verified two different sources for this remark. This smacks of a dirty whisper campaign by the Clinton campaign.

Good for Obama for stepping up and nipping this in the bud. He has shown that he will not allow his campaign to be swifboated ala Kerry.

Overreaction? Better safe than sorry. Look at who we ended up with in the White House for letting these tactics go unchecked.

Who was Novak's source, Valerie Plame?

"Until Mrs. Novak here posted, "Novak is no partisan hack" was a googlenope."


What is fascinating, to me, is that google's crawler has already indexed the page. Impressive!

For Robert Novak

Iago,
a cockroach,
Robert Novak,
certified human,
as least the courts would accept him as such,
and yet, almost more than metaphoric,
a cockroach,
Iago,
What cares most about itself,
enjoys its own genius
in the frailities of others.

Jesus said, "the meek shall inherit he earth",
many biologist believe,
insects shall eventually rule.
Welcome to Novak's world.

There are no standards on the internet,
and what remains of the the journalistic past
must cope and compete with what now is.

Someone is ordained a journalist,
deals in gossip and unnamed innuendo;
and syncophatically,
a thousand pulsating, blogging larvae,
cause commotion;
would there were a ocean
to swallow the insect-uous swarm.
But there isn't.
Today, tomorrow, perforce,
we must move about them.

But do we have to become like them,
respond to them?

They teach us what is
ignoble in the human,
the clay part;
the way around them is above...
As long as one is able to sacrifice one's self
for what's believed in,
Iago dies...
a bitter death,
the death of "living-for-nothing",
like a cockroach, living by its wits.

kpharmer writes
"You'd think Senator Clinton came up with the idea of doing anything to win. George W. Bush is quite the expert at this. Just ask Senator McCain about the rumors in South Carolina back in 2000 about his having allegedly fathered a mixed-race child."

A relevant point, to be sure. Though that does not justify any alleged misdeeds by Sen Clinton's campaign. More to the point, speaking of McCain, it seems like its time to start speculating about who's running the smear campaigns. Novak got the ball running on the Dem side; but who's pulling the strings with the anti-Romney push-polling in NH?

Do y'all know what a Googlenope is? Gene Weingarten coined the phrase. It's a phrase that when you put it in in google, in quotes, returns no hits.

Until Mrs. Novak here posted, "Novak is no partisan hack" was a googlenope.

The better-known Jon Stewart phrase, "Novak, *#$*%@bag of liberty" - 2,120 hits.

' By the way, we never did get to the bottom of Bush's record. Why? Because everyone who did try got their careers ruined'

And the MSM was far more interested in bashing Kerry than finding out about Bush deserting during wartime. Nor did they ever bother to report how Bush's grandfather funneled money to Hitler.

'He knew who BOTH of the people were - but was not telling. '

Then he is not a journaliist, he is a rumormonger. He may be as 'connected to the Beltway as Karl Rov' -- but that simply proves my point. He's a partisan scumbag too.

Hell, willin Seatle, I'd be the first to volunteer.

VirginiaConservative

In your eyes swiftboating means;

Exposing Kerry's false military record, right

OK can you be more partisan? Or is this your limit. By the way, we never did get to the bottom of Bush's record. Why? Because everyone who did try got their careers ruined. I guess we will never know. Maybe some group will finally show the truth of that cokehead airhead record. If the Swift boaters could muddy Kerry's military credentials imagine what they could do with Bush and Cheney's.

cdavidj,

never underestimate the power of sticking one's own index finger in one's ears and chanting "LA-LA-LA-LA-LA".

"Hillary will do anything to win and everyone knows it."

Please. You'd think Senator Clinton came up with the idea of doing anything to win. George W. Bush is quite the expert at this. Just ask Senator McCain about the rumors in South Carolina back in 2000 about his having allegedly fathered a mixed-race child.

"[Novak] only reports on what's true and can be verified."

"He's been around nearly 50 years. Novak is the terra firma of Beltway discussion."

I feel like Rip VanWinkle. I wake up and Valerie Wilson never happened. Scooter Libby never happened. The not-so-swiftboaters were never discredited.

Yikes.

VirginiaConservative, you're full of it. John Kerry released his entire military records two years ago.

So... swiftboating would be kind of like the falsified memos that practically ended Dan Rather's career in inaccurately attacking President Bush? Yeah, I can see why the Democrats might think they're the only ones to ever be viciously, negatively, untruthfully attacked by the other side. Such hypocrisy...

Why hasn't Bob Novak been SHOT for TREASON during wartime yet?

Seriously.

Why?

Most Americans would volunteer to serve on the firing squad.

newagent99 - Balony! John McCain doesn't play these sorts of games and HE is likely to be the Republican nominee.

mjimale, the onus is on BO to not be a dupe.

so far he's failed miserably.

if he gets the nomination the gop will use this as another example of his inexperience.

As for the too smug comments about everyone having something in their closet, that IS true. Who knows what that might be...and, unless it is something on the order of Clinton's blue dress, Hillary's utter destruction of the victims of rape who had the gaul to speak up about it, or Gingrich's diversing his wife in the middle of cancer treatment, who cares. What people need to know, however, is that a parnoid and sociopathic preditor is running for president and they need to do *everything* in their power to deny her that office. It's about your own personal survival and the survival of this country. Mr. Obama would make an excellent president. Mr. Edwards would make an even better one. Mr. Biden, Mr. Richardson, Mike Huckabee, John McCain, *anyone* would make a better president than Hillary Clinton.

jalexson | November 19, 2007 02:31 PM

Stop lying!

Kerry did indeed earn every one of his medals. The evidence is overwhelming.

Why do you disrespect the Navy and a proven war hero?

Why does WaPoo continue to post propaganda from the criminal and traitorous White House?

Traitor Bob Novak is an irresponsible sleeze journalist and this was just a trouble making story pitting the two campaigns he doesn't like against each other. Rumor mill used to be the stuff of tabloids. Why is any mainstream news outlet running him?

This garbage is par for the course for a Clinton campaign. Novak is nothing more than a useful fool for the sort of preditory practices of Ms. Clinton in her grasp for the presiency. If it wasn't Novak, it would be someonone else. Observers of Hillary Clinton, over the years, ought to be used to this sort of mud slinging. Think back on Jennifer Flowers, Mrs. Broaderick, Paula Jones, the Travel Office, those missing White House files, anyone who crosses her or gets in her way. Hillary Clinton is a classic gutter snipe, a sociopath who will stop at nothing. She, after all, *invented* the whole notion of Swift Boating. Bush-Rove merely was copying what the Clinton's and James Carville and the rest of that collection of dirtbags around her having been doing since the beginning. You can be certain that she has similar "packages" assembled on Guliani, Edwards, Romney, Huckabee, Biden, you name 'em.

The Onus was on the Clintons to prove they did not have anything to do with the prince of Darkness' rumor mill. Whether Obama fell for it or not is entirely beside the point.
They did not forcefully and categorically deny nor acknowledge what Novak reported therefore, the only conclusion one can reach is that they have collaborated with the story.

The Swift Boat vets countered the lies John Kerry told about himself by presenting the truth which included previously published accounts by John Kerry and his men that conflicted with the accounts they were providing in 2004. John Kerry was one of many white officers in Vietnam who received medals he didn't deserve. Keep in mind the Swift Boat vets served with Kerry in Vietnam so they knew the truth.

Democrats and the "journalists" who serve as their propagandists believe that they can say whatever they want and the rest of us are supposed to accept as gospel truth regardless of whether it is true or not.

Is there actually anyone in this country that thinks Obama's closet is clean?

gullible--not in the dictionary...

Claudialong,

He knew who BOTH of the people were - but was not telling. Like him or not, Robert Novak is a respected journalist who broken many stories. Novak is as connected to the Beltway as Hillary or Karl Rove. The interview and transcript are available on FOX NEWS. I invite you to read or listen.

He's been around nearly 50 years. Novak is the terra firma of Beltway discussion.

You can deny all you want; but you've got it deal with it. Hillary will do anything to win and everyone knows it.

Definition of "swiftboating."

Verb - To tell the truth and expose someone for falsely exaggerating personal military accomplishments.

If the estimable Mr Kerry wants to clear this up for once and for all, he can release his military records - all of them - as he promised some time ago.

Unfortunately - for the left - Mr Kerry would rather counter attack with more nonsense than clear his somewhat good name.

Until Kerry releases his complete records - it will remain a pis*ing contest.

The obvious reason he refuses to release his records is that they would support the veterans who are disputing his bravado. If they supported Kerry - he would have released them during the campaign and probably would have won. Now, he just looks like a fool.

tates1a, drindl has it right. Amazingly, even proud thinks Novak is a lying hack. KOZ, can you provide a rare moment of agreement with us on this? That will prove that heck has definitely frozen over.

The proper response would be to quote Mary McCarthy who said of Lillian Hellman:
Everything she says, including a, an and the is a lie.

Now Novak has "clarified" his sourcing: It's second-hand. In the interview, he says he was told of this by someone who was "told by an agent of the Clinton campaign."

Let's see --- anonymous second-hand sourcing. always very reliable.

'Your only problem is that Robert Novak is no partisan hack. He only reports on what's true and can be verified.'

you're joking, right? I mean, you can't be serious?

"[Novak] only reports on what's true and can be verified."

Far as I know, this story hasn't been verified. Has it? Novak says he's not telling who told him, so who can verify the story?

Guys,

Your only problem is that Robert Novak is no partisan hack. He only reports on what's true and can be verified.

On FOX news, Novak said he knew the Democratic official and the Clinton campaign staffer but wasn't telling.

What problem I have if this info not being false is that it took 3 statements from Clinton campaign to categorically deny such a rumor...

bsimon -- absolutely correct. Obama took Novak's bait. He should know better.

Another one out:

'After barely defeating Linda Stender last year, Republican Congressman Ferguson says he won't seek reelection in 2008. His announcement is surprising considering he's only 37. His statement:

"I am announcing today that I will not be a candidate for re-election to Congress in 2008. I deeply appreciate the privilege the people of the 7th District have given me during the past seven years, and it has been my honor to represent them and our country.'

Stender's running again, so looks good for an NJ Dem pickup.

The Obama campaign would have been smarter to criticize Novak for making stuff up than try to score a hit on Clinton. Establishing Novak as an uncredible hack will pay off far more in the long term than an unprovable allegation against the Clinton campaign.