"Source: Colo. shooter ID'd, 'hated Christians'
24-year-old from 'very, very religious' family is suspected in both rampages "

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22174890/

tHIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU FORCE RELIGON on a free people. Maybe not to this level. You get two chocies neither good.

1. A slave who follows but does not know why. Does as they're told. Not a real religous person. They act like one to get by

2. You get a person that goes the other way. They see their religous parents as reprsenting good. they are fooling into believing this. Where are they to go, if not to good. A child? They go to evil. They hate. They become skinheads and anarchists. They become drug addicts. They are the worse people insociety.

This is why it is better to let the children decide for themselves. Forcing religon on a free people is all bad. You got two roads, read above. Neither is a "christan" road.

That is why the mormons and catholics are cults.

"Romney's right about what state religion has done in Europe. "

So force children here to go then. Lie to them. Bully them. See how far it gives them and your church. A real religous person must come to it through understanding and choice. To force it on anyone accomplishes nothing, for either side. The forced person does not know what it means to be a "christian" "muslim", "jew", and in turn the church gets a clone that will "ACT" like a (blank). I can act like a dolphin. Doesn't make me one

Romney's right about what state religion has done in Europe. I was in Kemi Finland in 1972 which had as a population approx. 20,000. There was one grand Lutheran Church that seated approximately 2,000. It was filled on Christmas and Easter. Outside that the weekly attendance was less than 50. Over 95% of the country is Lutheran and is a state religion which is supported by taxes, not tithing or freewill offerings. The Lutheran priests went on strike for more money and the Finnish legislature agreed to let them strike, but insisted that even on strike they still had to perform marriages and burials (can't have dead bodies stacked up and stinking). Our Founding Fathers were indeed long visioned by protecting church from state and state from church! Point was right on target Mr. Romney.

To William0020008 from Marina

I was sickened,outraged,and appalled at your comments. I could feel the hate and darkness. How dare you take someones beliefs and practices that they consider sacred and holy( eventhough most of the list was not even close to being accurate) and trample them under your feet, twisting the beliefs and making them appear sordid and depreaved. I appreciate nataleelews comments that if she wants to learn about someones beliefs she is not going to watch some video.(I might add, anti-mormon video). William, I challenge and plead with you to go to an authorized source if you want to know the truth about our beliefs. How about goings to a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints worship service, or ask a missionary or practicing member or read the "Book of Mormon"? You can then make a fair judgement and find out for yourself, rather than relying on what someone else is telling you.

To William0020008

I was sickened,outraged,and appalled at your comments. I could feel the hate and darkness. How dare you take someones beliefs and practices that they consider sacred and holy( eventhough most of the list was not even close to being accurate) and trample them under your feet, twisting the beliefs and making them appear sordid and depreaved. I appreciate nataleelews comments that if she wants to learn about someones beliefs she is not going to watch some video.(I might add, anti-mormon video). William, I challenge and plead with you to go to an authorized source if you want to know the truth about our beliefs. How about goings to a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints worship service, or ask a missionary or practicing member or read the "Book of Mormon"? You can then make a fair judgement and find out for yourself, rather than relying on what someone else is telling you.

By the way, I don't think that we are a cult. We are encouraged to do certain things and act in certain ways, but if we don't do those things, it's still fine. Not all mormons dress modestly. I know some mormons who swear. I've seen several R-rated movies. We are only encouraged, we are not forced. We choose to do what we do. And most mormans do not force their children to practice their same beliefs. My brother did not get baptized when he was younger. He made that choice himself and my parents did not stand in his way. Sure, we were sad and disappointed, but we still love him.

The reason that everyone keeps saying to look at lds.org is because we don't want to be blogging all day. If I had to TYPE my beliefs, it would take the entire day and way too much space. LDS.org is a much faster and easier way to share our beliefs. You should first go and at least look at the site. Then we can address individual questions. I'm perfectly happy to talk about certain issues, but I will not talk generally about my beliefs on a blog. It would just take way too much of my time.

Okay... so I watched the video and lo, was I suprised! No... I've been a student of anti mormon literature, I've read the God Makers; Mama, Mormonism, and Me; the Visitors, et al. The one thing I've found consistent in all of these is the deliberate lies they tell.

For instance, the supposed fact that Satan is the god of Mormons, and he is the narrator in the Mormon temples. This is a lie.

The story of Adam and Eve's fall is told, and the devil plays a roll in that. There is a person who acts the part of the devil, and he is constantly shown as a liar and a deceiver. Not until God appears and sets the record straight, do Adam and Eve understand they were deceived. When they are cast out, the devil again appears and attempts to deceive them, but Adam rejects him and professes his acceptance of God and the eventual coming of Christ.

This video is full of lies and deceit suggest to you that if you watch it, that you remember who is the father of lies.

The narrative is always the same, lies and half truths that are then twisted out of context.

The rituals are not portrayed accurately or in context, the scriptures are not quoted. These people fail to comment on the fact that the bible talks about baptism for the dead, it mentions the need for prophets, the need for things done by authority and ritual.

I won't go into detail here, I can give more, but the fact is simple... this little video was a dishonest representation of the LDS church. Again, who is the father of lies?

Joseph Smith never said he did more than Christ for the salvation of men. That's a lie.

Wow william. you succeded in scaring the heck out of me. Is it true no mormon church has a cross anywhere, yet they have the pentegram, goats head, and baal.

Thank you very much for this. It's worse than I thought. Thanks for showing me what time it really is.

http://bestdocumentaries.blogspot.com/2007/04/mormons-and-illuminati.html

Now I get harry reid :)

"This is why sometimes I'm forced to say liberals just don't have religion"

But I'm the intolerant one. I just said mormons are not christans. Which is worse? Which is broader?

I don't hate any group of people, other than evil fascists. Who does the right rally against? Anyone not exactly like them. I'm a white man. But I wasn;'t white enough for them. Now I see what I have been fighting my whole life. I see my enemy, and how do defeat them. Defend your country against threats foreign and dimestic. That's what they told us.

So if you would silence me, you should really want this guy silenced

rush "the fascist" rambo

"I'm really frightened that that's what some libs want to do, is destroy and eliminate, as best they can, the court system is their primary route, because they're insulated from elections there, to totally destroy the link to the roots that make this country what it is. Because there is a genuine fear, I said it yesterday, I'm going to say it again, because I firmly believe it. I think in a lot of liberals, a lot of leftists, there is a genuine fear of people who have faith in God. Liberals want people to have faith in them and their institutions, which is government, and they are frightened by the fact that people who have faith in something larger than themselves that can't be controlled, which is what liberalism must do in order to thrive. It must control people. Nobody is required to believe in God, but it does mean that for our society to survive, I'm going to say this again, the founding principles must be embraced by most of us, otherwise, who are we? If you accept the founding had a religious aspect, then you also have to accept what comes with it. If you don't want to accept that, then you want to deny. How about that? You're a founding denier. Yeah, those of us that don't buy the global warming hoax, we're called global warming deniers. Well, those of you who want to destroy or deny the truth about the founding of this nation are founding deniers.

So there's dissent in this country, there are different views, but most of us believe in God, and most of us believe in natural law. Most of us do. Look at the Passion of the Christ. Look how well that did and how inflamed the liberals were over it, particularly out in Hollywood? That is the American tradition. It is our founding. That most of us believe in God and natural law. "

"RUSH: Stop the tape. This is why sometimes I'm forced to say liberals just don't have religion. He was quoting one of the Founders! The whole speech, she has missed the point. The whole speech was about the founding of the country and how important elements were in having it happen and, furthermore, keeping it together, the traditions, the institutions that have made this country great, as I love to say over and over again, and all she can focus on is the PC aspect, "It was so exclusive, I expected it to be far more inclusive. I thought he was excluding anybody who might be a doubter, an agnostic, an atheist, a free thinker, even a seeker," she says. Do these people have not one original thought? There must be one liberal who has an original thought, and they all pick up on it, and they all start echoing it. But he's quoting John Adams, for crying out loud. I don't know, Sally Quinn may not know who he is. Sure she knows; she's gotta know who he is. He was talking about the founding of the country and she thinks it's dangerous, a theocracy. They are scared to death of any religious people, folks, not just Mormons."

bUT i'M THE BAD GUY BECAUSE i OFFEND three people. How many million does this FASCIST offend?

"I wish you well, and assure you, though it falls on deaf ears, that for all its problems, the world is still not as bad as you think it is. I hope you realize that some day, you'll be happier for it, and you can then direct your energies at fixing problems that really do exist, instead of chasing phantoms in the shadows.

Posted by: jongoff | December 7, 2007 05:29 PM
"

Chasing shadows? My blog identity yexits go get teh right wing propogandists off the air. once this happens many elderly will be free from their masters, to think for themselves. How many families does this save, and bring back together?

The war on terror is not being fought across the globe. It's being fought right here. The republcains have done more damage than the terrorists ever did. To beat the terrorists, we must not become then. Never again will people like me allow Christianity to be used in this way again. A religon of peace and love twisted to hate intolerance and murder.

I'm not chasing shadows. I got my enemies and this nations enemies on the run. Election time is near. Once these liars and propogandists for profit are gone, so am I. Until then I show all why they must be removed, to have american unity again. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. The street must run both ways.

Enjoy your irrelevance.

"I have better things to do with my time than waste it arguing with a person unwilling or incapable of questioning their assumptions."

Coming from a mormon, I'll that as a compliment. And a christian badge of honor.

JK:

You're a conspiracy nut. Are there problems with the government? Yup. Did they blow up the towers? NO. Come on, we can't even keep stains on a blue dress out of the news, do you really think that if there were any real evidence about all these conspiracies that anyone would be able to suppress it?

You're not living in reality. I wish I could convince you, but sadly, my experience is that when talking to persons such as yourself, no amount of facts, not logic, no matter how pure or quintessential, no matter how erudite, will convince you.

I have better things to do with my time than waste it arguing with a person unwilling or incapable of questioning their assumptions.

So, claim your victory, though I don't concede it, but that won't matter to you. I have real problems that need facing and fixing, not imaginary ones.

I wish you well, and assure you, though it falls on deaf ears, that for all its problems, the world is still not as bad as you think it is. I hope you realize that some day, you'll be happier for it, and you can then direct your energies at fixing problems that really do exist, instead of chasing phantoms in the shadows.

Got that through. What abou this:

"So, let me point out some facts for you. You keep calling us fascists. Do you know what fascism is? Allow me to explain, or rather, quote: "a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.""

"Now, when presented with the facts, I wonder if you'll stop calling us fascists, or if you will admit you were wrong. If you can't, maybe you can explain why we should bother listening to you? If you can't acknowledge facts, how can you claim to dispense any truth at all, or have a valid opinion? More to the point, why should we listen to you?

"

wHAT FACTS DO YOU PRESENT? your not fascists because I say so. your actions make you fascists, not my words. I got you. You've probably never seen any of this. Hiding in those nice safe caves. Shaking in fear because of the scary "beasts" outside. I got you though. If you care about the destruction of our great country, here you go:

"Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and social interests subordinate to the interests of the state. Fascists seek to forge a type of national unity, usually based on (but not limited to) ethnic, cultural, racial, and religious attributes. Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, corporatism, populism, collectivism, and opposition to political and economic liberalism.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]

"

"Terrorism in the modern sense[1] is violence or other harmful acts committed (or threatened) against civilians for political or other ideological goals.[2] Most definitions of terrorism include only those acts which are intended to create fear or "terror", are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants. Many definitions also include only acts of unlawful violence.

As a form of unconventional warfare, terrorism is sometimes used when attempting to force political change by convincing a government or population to agree to demands to avoid future harm or fear of harm, destabilizing an existing government, motivating a disgruntled population to join an uprising, escalating a conflict in the hopes of disrupting the status quo, expressing a grievance, or drawing attention to a cause.
"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories

Pentagon video from 9/11:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsWZHKIg3Cs

Shall I go on? Do you even care what has befallen your country?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html

"Fascist America, in 10 easy steps

From Hitler to Pinochet and beyond, history shows there are certain steps that any would-be dictator must take to destroy constitutional freedoms. And, argues Naomi Wolf, George Bush and his administration seem to be taking them all

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy (terrorists, liberals, the media, actors, judges, war on christmas, war on religon, war on drugs)

2. Create a gulag(gitmo, secret cia prisons in eastern europe)

3. Develop a thug caste (dittoheads, catholics, cow folk, mormons, some ex-military)

4. Set up an internal surveillance system(patriot act, eye scans coming, camera phones everyone, cameras every where)

5. Harass citizens' groups( goes without saying)

6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release

7. Target key individuals (see above)

8. Control the press (fox, fox pressure on msm (your unamerica, radio blackout, silence those you disagree)

9. Dissent equals treason(your with us or against us, un-american, traitor accusations against the left)

10. Suspend the rule of law( id on't recall, doj mia, fcc mia)

"

Shall I go on? Do you even care what has befallen your country?

test

Wow JK

when did I ever say anything was your fault? I just pointed out that you were wrong, and asked you to step back and challenge your beliefs. I'll take your response as a refusal to do so.

So, let me point out some facts for you. You keep calling us fascists. Do you know what fascism is? Allow me to explain, or rather, quote: "a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism."

www.dictionary.com

Republicans, and more to the point, conservatives are for less, not more government power and believe that the safest custodian for power is with the people... so, not fascism.

Conservatives believe that business should be as unregulated as possible to allow for growth and industry because that is what drives the economy and creates jobs and prosperity. So... not fascism.

The present administration is not a dictator with absolute power, no matter what you think... so, not facism.

The present administration has numerous and vocal critics who haven't been jailed or murdered in the middle of the night by SS troops, or anyone else for that matter... so, not fascism.

Racism is and will continue to be a problem in the US and the world because there will always be idiots who cannot look past a person's skin color or ethnicity, but no one is attempting genocide, and the freedoms and liberties enjoyed by minorities in the US are among the most liberal and generous in the history of the world... so, not fascism.

Now, when presented with the facts, I wonder if you'll stop calling us fascists, or if you will admit you were wrong. If you can't, maybe you can explain why we should bother listening to you? If you can't acknowledge facts, how can you claim to dispense any truth at all, or have a valid opinion? More to the point, why should we listen to you?

Jon

"You're so anxious that we listen to you and question or beliefs. Will you do the same?

Jon

Posted by: jongoff | December 7, 2007 02:48 PM
"

Sure go ahead. you got anything other than attacks and pointing finger. Who is stopping you from posting your beleifs? Why would you supress mine?

Go ahead, by all means. Enlighen me. Or point the finger and blame. That is why the gop is done. You refuse to look at yourselvs. You are God's, in your eye's.

This is my problem with you false prophets. You pretend to know God's will and speak for God. All the while trampeling Jesus's teachings. that is why I say the "reliogus" right and mormons are not christians. Not because I say so. But by your actions.

I grow and change everyday. Do you clones? Or do you yearn to live in perpetual 1955? The past is over. The future is now. When driving you look at the next mountain not the one you just passed.

You fascists had your time. It's over now. Go enjoy the money you have stolen from your country and enjoy your irrelevance.

"JKrishnamurti

You really have no idea what you're talking about. I'm fairly astonished by people who are always trying to challenge my beliefs, and get me to question my assumptions, which I have no problem with, but those same individuals never challenge their own beliefs.

We're all guilty of thinking that we're better thinkers than we really are. Socrates had it right when he said the only thing that made him wiser than other men was that he knew how unwise he was.

Let me challenge you: Step away from your soap box for a moment and ask yourself, what if everything you believe is wrong? Then come to your ideas, challenge them, attack them as you have everyone else's opinion here, find fault with your views. Tear them down. An idea that cannot stand up to serious scrutiny isn't worthy of your affectation.

When you've done that, you will be better positioned to make your arguments. I'm not going to make any comments on anything you've said before, or offer any criticism except this.

You're so anxious that we listen to you and question or beliefs. Will you do the same?

Jon

Posted by: jongoff | December 7, 2007 02:48 PM "

YOUR RIGHT. eVERYTHING IN THE WORLD IS MY FAULT. ONE ANONYMOUS POSTER. i AM SINGLE HANDEDLY holding mitt's nomination up. One liberals independant, because of commenting, is the problem. the gop is done. Now you know why. your inability to hold your own to any form of accountability. Much easier to blame those you hate. Freedom loving liberals. Rather than defending your positions point the finger. it's all the gop has left. you have no one to blame fo teh downfall of you party but yourselves. don't tim mcveigh to many americaans when you don;t get your way. when yoou fascists propogandists are off the air, when the gop is irrelevant for thirty years.

Remember you rlack of accountability and you rpointing fingers as conversation at that time. Enjoy your irrelevance.

If youare so wise, why do you peole call you selves dittoheads? If you are wise why submit to morons. If you are chirstians why submit to anyone not Jesus.

you are the mental migets. Your time has came and went. No go back in the closet and enjoy your irrelevacne.

JK:

You have lived up to your critics in only seeing what you want to see...I said "...one of the greatest..." not "the greatest." Please read a little more carefully in the future. I know that my comments overwhelmed your intellect.

JKrishnamurti

You really have no idea what you're talking about. I'm fairly astonished by people who are always trying to challenge my beliefs, and get me to question my assumptions, which I have no problem with, but those same individuals never challenge their own beliefs.

We're all guilty of thinking that we're better thinkers than we really are. Socrates had it right when he said the only thing that made him wiser than other men was that he knew how unwise he was.

Let me challenge you: Step away from your soap box for a moment and ask yourself, what if everything you believe is wrong? Then come to your ideas, challenge them, attack them as you have everyone else's opinion here, find fault with your views. Tear them down. An idea that cannot stand up to serious scrutiny isn't worthy of your affectation.

When you've done that, you will be better positioned to make your arguments. I'm not going to make any comments on anything you've said before, or offer any criticism except this.

You're so anxious that we listen to you and question or beliefs. Will you do the same?

Jon

" Knowing to do with the religon. If he wasn't running for president,that is
"

Nothing to do with, that is

"Notwithstanding our Southern Evangelists, I am proud to be an American. Whether you support or not support Mr. Romney's candidacy, his "Faith in America" speech will go down as one of the greatest speeches of all time. He captured in 15 minutes, what this country has needed for the last 50 years: that religion is an important part of this great country.

Marcello Mancini

"

one mroe point on this. The great speech about religon was JFK, most people agree. Why? HE professed the seperation of church and state. He said his faith had nothing to do with politics, just his morals.

Romney's speech was on the other spectrum, IMO. He argued why religon SHOULD be in politics. Runs compleatly counter to JFK's speech. He argued for no seperation. That may or may not help him in the primaries. I hope he is the nominee.

AFTER THAT SPEECH IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR HIM TO BECOME PRESIDENT.

May get the nom, but he cannot now get elected. Not because he's a mormon. But because he preached the opposite of what JFK did. He argued that religon SHOULD be in politics. Greastest speech of all-time? you show where your loyalties lie. Mormon faith over country. Like the gop choosing party voer country, that is treason.

And that is also why mitt cannot be president. Now you know. Knowing to do with the religon. If he wasn't running for president,that is

"I would like to see you evangelicals spend some time contemplating scriptures that say (and I paraphrase), "They without sin let them cast the first stone" or "Love one another". It does not say "Love one another" unless your Mormon or Muslim or gay or whatever. "

come on man. I love you people. I just like to call hypocrites and false prophets as such.

I do love you mormons. I just like you are lost. You follow imaginary rules, all the conservatives do. And you force those imagianry rules on a free people. If this was europe it would be fine. This is america. this is a free country. I'm trying to break your imaginary chains that kep you in your imaginary caves.

Read this to feel me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave

Understand now, why I blog. It is for you. I don;t blog to preach to the converted (liberals). I blog for you. to help you. Not because I hate you. Because I love you people. We are all amerricans. Fear hate and intolerant enslaved you. Not liberals or terrorists. To release these things you must internalize. do you do that? Look at the blog. you stike out, you attack.

That is the problem. That is why I blog. I know people will not change here and now. I'm just hoping one word reaches one person. Later in life they may understand. We all paint our own small part in the grand painting of life. I can just do me.

But I don;t hate mormons or republcains. I feel you are misguided and lost. This is the only way I know to pull you in and make you think.

To show the gop a mirror. Broad characterizations. Attack attack attack. "I know you are but what am I". This is what the right wing fascist spin machine does. If your people would want me silenced or banned, why should I not want that recipracated? Better for all to be free. Not just republcains. Can we agree on that? Understand wher eI'm coming from now.

Freedom for all. that is what america is. not capitalism. Not False christianity. Freedom. What comes out of that freedom is what makes america great. To crush that freedom, as the gop and religous right are doing, is to cruch america. Who is the patriot now?

Before you call me un-american. I offered my life to the alter of american militarism, when I was a young misguided man. infantry 11B. I love my country. I love my countrymen. I love the young men that are being murdered so the republcains can line their pockets. What do you love? People like you? Small world

Shame, shame, shame to my fellow conservatives, especially to those "Southern Evangelists" who profess to be Christians. We have given the liberal establishment so much fuel for their blogs and ultimate climb to the presidency of the United States. You continue to drive a political wedge in this country that is drawing the ire of not only the democrats but some in the Republican Party. Quite frankly, I'm fed up with all the crap (I would use the other word but this is a family newspaper) that you exude from your holier than thou pulpits. You are the first to judge the morale compass of our society but fail to look in the mirror at your own faults. My contempt for what you stand for grows stronger each day when I read your attacks on those individuals, Mitt Romney included, that may differ with your faith. Please spare me the rhetoric about what the bible says about standing up for your convictions. I know the bible as well. I would like to see you evangelicals spend some time contemplating scriptures that say (and I paraphrase), "They without sin let them cast the first stone" or "Love one another". It does not say "Love one another" unless your Mormon or Muslim or gay or whatever.

Mitt Romney finally succumbed to your pressures regarding his faith. I'm just flabbergasted that you evangelicals or anyone else has the audacity to expect him to speak about specifics of his faith. I'm sure your thoughts were, (in your best Jed Clampett voice) "Dug namit, if only he would have talked about his funky underwear, the whole world would've known just what wacko's those Mormons are." Every faith system has their own peculiarities so to expect someone to specifically address those in a political arena is asinine.

The way I see things, those evangelicals that fear a Mormon as president are afraid that it will somehow legitimize the Mormon faith. Heaven forbid that the US Mormon population grows from 2% to 3%. But I guess you are more worried about having to change your doctrine about the existence of hell since it will be frozen if a Mormon becomes president.

Notwithstanding our Southern Evangelists, I am proud to be an American. Whether you support or not support Mr. Romney's candidacy, his "Faith in America" speech will go down as one of the greatest speeches of all time. He captured in 15 minutes, what this country has needed for the last 50 years: that religion is an important part of this great country.

Marcello Mancini

"Also, don't conflate Mormonism with Republicanism. It is not only inaccurate, but sloppy. Your concerns about authority are understandable, but your pointing of fingers and blaming all the country's problems on one or other group is not. There have been good leaders from both parties and poor leaders from both. There are also good Mormons, Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Protestants, Evangelicals, Agnostics, Secularists, "Independents," etc. as well as bad. Your black and white assignment of blame is simplistic and invites others to ignore the rest of your message, which has some validity.

Posted by: mnarich | December 7, 2007 01:46 PM

"

Now we're getting soewhere. I agree. So will you help me remove those that do this, as you would remove me from here? Fox News Bill oreilly malkin hannity rush. their lies discredits and smears have resulted in millions fo deaths. Why? for personal profit.

What do they do? Everything you just mentioned. Everything is liberals fault. they are the cause of all evil, teh secularists. They should be beaten tazed or arrested if the do not submit to teh gop and their criminality.

The left should be silenced, the right says, because they are "un-american". They are "traitors" because they don't follow a criminal president. They are godless because they are not republcains or go to republcain churches.

I agree with you. We are all americans and should unite as one country. Who is stopping that? Who waged verbal war on america? If you want to change the level of political dialogue in this country, I'm all with you.

But rather than blaming one anonymous poster, why not talk to the people with millions of clone follower "dittoheads". I only blog to get them off the air so we can unite as a nation. Who is keeping the lying propogandists for porfit on the air? Liebrals? Your angry and blame is misguided. Help me unite the country I will help you. Continue to be a driving force in dividing it, and I will keep holdign the mirror up. To show all independatn thinkers that the gop are hypocrites. They make the rules but think they are above. Rules for thee but not me.

You want to chagne the leval of political discourse, I'm with you. Start at the top. Get you masters off the air, I will never blog again. Deal?

http://bestdocumentaries.blogspot.com/2007/04/mormons-and-illuminati.html

SENT FROM WILLIAM YESTERDAY.

To choose a church's teachings over the teachigns of Jesus is nto christianity. Where did Jesus instructe us to do what mormons do? did he say look for a new religon in the future? Jew's believe Jesus is a great teacher not a God. Some Christians believe this. Some believe he is the son of God. either way his teachings are truth. but when did he validate mormons? Or better yet, what non-mormons validate mormonism as christanity? Are they men or God"s. Are they pretendign to know God's will?

Better to follow Jesus.

What makes you think I bow to the Church and not to God? What makes you think I only follow a few lines of scripture? I believe that the primary mission of my Church is to embrace all truth. I bow to the Truth, not to the Church, and Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light. These few verses were shared only to highlight those points on which we are most often criticized. I don't insist that others believe a literal interpretation of these Biblical verses in order to call themselves Christian, but others seem to expect me to deny their simplest, clearest meaning in order to be called a Christian. Why?

Also, don't conflate Mormonism with Republicanism. It is not only inaccurate, but sloppy. Your concerns about authority are understandable, but your pointing of fingers and blaming all the country's problems on one or other group is not. There have been good leaders from both parties and poor leaders from both. There are also good Mormons, Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Protestants, Evangelicals, Agnostics, Secularists, "Independents," etc. as well as bad. Your black and white assignment of blame is simplistic and invites others to ignore the rest of your message, which has some validity.

Follow Jesus. Rather than using one or two lines to give your church validity. Why not use his life's teachigs? then you can call yourselves christans. And if you do. Then you are. An no number of anonymous posters could tell you differant.

"Mormons simply take these Biblical verses at their word. Clearly, in order for "Orthodox Christians" to deny the Christianity of Mormons, they also have to deny the Christianity of the Bible, and even of Christ himself. In order to avoid denying the Christianity of the Bible and of Christ, some "Orthodox Christians" use textual criticism to change the meaning of what is otherwise quite clear in the Bible. The downside of this approach is that the infallibility of the Bible is then brought into question, and the Mormon belief in the necessity of another witness, the Book of Mormon, is strengthened.

Posted by: mnarich | December 7, 2007 01:02 PM
"

Very good arguement.

I had a long post, it didn;t take. The gist

Follow Jesus. You will be fine. You don;'t need the church telling you how to act or dress or even talk. Follow Jesus. Let him mold you. Bricks and stones are just that. They do not equal God. without God what would your church be? Yet you still bow to the church. Why not bow to God?

sleeping, rip van winkle. That is.

I put out the words to attack. Rebuplicans can't attack my points. You cannot combat truths with lies and propoganda. So I give you something to attack. If you can't attack words what would you say? Trying to keep the gop authoritarians invloved, It's not the liberals holding up progress and gutting the country. So I pull in authoritarian fascists. Maybe I get break your chains and get you to think for yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave

Can I offer a comment or two???

Whether you like Mitt Romney or not will never be settled in the court or public opinion, or in the blog-o-sphere. I would challenge any person, liberal or conservative, republician or democrat, Mormon supporter or Mormon critic, etc. to walk in Mitt's footsteps. He has made mistakes and is learning from them. At the end of the day, he will either sink or swim. At least he isn't afraid to try. I admire his courage. Few politicians, or even people in general, are willing to stand up for what they believe even if it costs them major personal $$$ and a lifetime of ridicule from their detractors.

I have a job. I'm working now. this is my hobby :).

I know republcains only pay republcains. Again, my problem with your people. A cult. The mormon cult is just an extension of the republcian cult. Nothing more. Just a wing. you didn;t know that? Man, you've been lied to your whole life, haven't you.

Not only will I not be a republcain. your party is done for 30 years. Where else do you keep your job the worse you do? what has the gop done right, other than steal the countries surplus and transfer it to your cult? The gop has done nothign right. It has trampled everything this country was founded on. Were you stealing rip van winkle style, though the 06 elections? The american people rejected fascism. Have things imporved since 06, or worsened? Enjoy your irrelevance.

Obama 08

If you want to know, here is the primary reason Mormons are rejected by other Christians. I found this on an Evangelical website:

"Mormonism is not faithfully or soundly Christian because it deviates from historic, biblical standards of orthodox Christianity. For example, Mormonism teaches that God the Father is an exalted Man, that Jesus, angels, and human beings were all the literal spirit offspring of our 'heavenly Father and Mother,' and that the ultimate goal of the Christian life is to become exalted to Godhood ourselves."

Yet the Bible says:

"Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." (Psalms 82:6)

"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" (John 10: 33-34)

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." (Romans 8:16-17).

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (Revelation 3: 21)

Mormons simply take these Biblical verses at their word. Clearly, in order for "Orthodox Christians" to deny the Christianity of Mormons, they also have to deny the Christianity of the Bible, and even of Christ himself. In order to avoid denying the Christianity of the Bible and of Christ, some "Orthodox Christians" use textual criticism to change the meaning of what is otherwise quite clear in the Bible. The downside of this approach is that the infallibility of the Bible is then brought into question, and the Mormon belief in the necessity of another witness, the Book of Mormon, is strengthened.

Look, I really do need to go, but let's not get all hot under the collar.

I'm not calling you a ist. I'm just asking you to learn to spell.

If you could also follow some basic grammatical rules, and try to make a little more sense, you too may be able to find a job one day. Once that happens, you can see the light and become a Republican, too!

Now, won't that be nice?

"Spout on, J.

I've got to go, anyway. Rush is on!

:-)

Posted by: spamorama | December 7, 2007 12:45 PM
"

right. Brain ... activated. Time to learn what I am angry about today. Your master doesn;'t have much longer left, as does Fox. Enjoy your lying traitor propogandists for profit, while you can. Taking millions to lie to the elderly for profit.

We are a self government. in a self govenrment we need all the real news we can get. We need none of the people misleading the voting public for pofit. You masters are done. What will you do without your brains? How will you think for yourself? We will find out soon enough. People are working to free you from your prison, don't fret.

"Answer truthfully, J:

Are you even inside the USA? Are you even a citizen?

Your skills with the language would say no.
"

What is the implacation. Since I do not sound like the clones you are always around I am a terrorist? Now we are getting somewhere?

I am agaisnt that whole "You are like me because you talk act dress and look like me" thing. now you see why people are having a problem with mitt. I just held a mirror up for others to see.

I am an america. Born here, san jose ca. White male. Public school. Should I go on? Are you convinced I'm not a terroist living in the middle east?

As anyone that comes here regularl knows. I rally against authoritarians. Agaisnt people that tell you how you should act. i draw you out my misspellng words, as that means nothing. only the word matters. In the process of understanding what I'm saying, you clones are thinking for yourself for a change. This runs counter to your normal thought process of being told what to say how to act and how to be a good (mormon,chiristan, american) or what have you.

you show your face. Anyone not like you , is not an american. now you know why the gop is done, and mitt has not chance. As a mormon has no chance until you people realize that america is freedom for all. Not just for certain individuals you deem worthy.

Spout on, J.

I've got to go, anyway. Rush is on!

:-)

"Romney and Huckabee's religious intolerance
Nonbelievers have long been more tolerant of believers in office than the other way around

By Joe Conason
"

http://www.salon.com/index.html

The street must run both ways. This is not elementary school. This is america land of the free. Not just free for you.

Answer truthfully, J:

Are you even inside the USA? Are you even a citizen?

Your skills with the language would say no.

Not that I care; I believe in free speech wherever you are, whoever you are.

Its just that repetetive stupidity grates on the ears a little, particularly when its stupidity poorly worded and grammared.

(I made that word up, by the way).

And, trying to follow the flow of the blog with your nonsensical mutterings interspersed is a little difficult.

"Isn't there a moderator or somebody who can at least limit the amount of crap that idiots like

JKrishnamurti

can clog up the blog with?

Posted by: spamorama | December 7, 2007 12:30 PM
"

Who else is blogging here today. now you see why the gop is done. Freedom for you slavery for everyone else. Welcome to my world :). I tried blogging on republcain sites. You free speech yellers silenced me in one day. Why did the dixie chicks get banned from the radio for voicing their opinion?

Now you see why I do wha tI do. Mormons should not be persecuted against. But liberals should be. "Be as me or do not be". You show your face, gop

I referred to other websites because many if not most of the negative comments about Mormonism on this blog are getting very old. LDS beliefs have been articulated, questions have been answered, no need to retype them here when you can access them with a click of your mouse. That said, I'm participating in two online discussions where I give my own two cents about questions regarding Mormonism. I don't need three.

I agree that you can be connected to Jesus without a church, under a tree, or in a small group of two or three. I believe that Jesus responds to anyone who reaches out to him. But if Jesus has established a church here on earth, why not join it? If one believes that Jesus heads their church it would seem odd to say, "I love you Jesus, but I'd rather not attend your church."

Yes you can worship Jesus as an individual, as a group, as a Catholic, Protestant, or Evangelical. Contrary to popular opinion you can also worship Jesus as a Mormon. Some Christians teach that you are saved through the grace of God by accepting Jesus as your Savior, even if you subsequently sin--unless you are a Mormon, then you have to leave your church in order to be saved, and if you remain a Mormon after accepting Jesus, too bad, you're still damned.

"But if somebody says, "I'm a Christian," how can somebody else look at him and say, "No you're not. I'm a Christian [or, I know Christians], and you're just not a Christian.""

I feel you. A christian is so through words and actions. I am making a personal statement based on dozens of mormons I've known. I am one man, I speak for no one but myself. For mitt to win you would need to convince people just like me, like hillary does. What does hillary do? Cry and whine the big boys are beating up on her. That is what the mormons here are doing. To win you must be strong. To represent me, you must tell me why you should represent me. But to attack me and blame me. Like the with evancelicals, that's no way to get the vote.

Conversation is the way to come to understanding. I don't know very much about mormons. I set you guys up to shoot me down. you didn;t so I have to assume everything "they" say about you is true.

Isn't there a moderator or somebody who can at least limit the amount of crap that idiots like

JKrishnamurti

can clog up the blog with?

i love you mormons. Really I do. No disrespect. I just think your a republcain cult. 90% republcain. I've seen the mormon plan first hand. I've dated a mormon girl. Mormonism is perfect for republcains. I wish you all were mormons. you get to profess rules and laws, but do not have to live by them. Perfect for republicans.

Look at how he ran the olymipics though. The man MUST be president. He held the olympics. the gop is done. time to get back to real business. If we can stop their sabotage that is. The terroists are going to be very angry when the gop has zero power in this country,a nd will not move us towards religous fundementalism, like them.

I hear the gop wishing america gets attacked daily. If the dem's win, the right will allow attacks on this country. Let's see how far that's get's then, once america realizes we are dealing with religous ascism here. If Bush ever holds the elcetion that is. I wouldn't put it past the republcains. Things have gotten far worse for them since 06.

I pray they do not tim mcveigh americans. I fear for my sons. Either way this is america. Where we fight and die for freedom. If that is the path for my sons, it is God's will. That is why I fight the gop now. For my children. So they don't have to. Marginalze the terrorist gop and show them for what they are.

Mitt helped with that yesterday. He may get the nom. but a few words killed his chances at the big ticket.

"Freedom requires religon," and vice versa. We see how far that gets him in the general amougst free people. As oppose to dittoheads slaves and clones.

More on the "Mormon's aren't Christians" thing:

I can understand if somebody says, "I'm a banana," and he's not a banana, so somebody else calls him on it and says, "No you're not. I'm looking right at you, and you're not a banana. I know what bananas look like, and you're not one." That makes sense, right?

But if somebody says, "I'm a Christian," how can somebody else look at him and say, "No you're not. I'm a Christian [or, I know Christians], and you're just not a Christian."

Whether a Christian really is or not is really something deep down inside, isn't it? I mean, there might be some outward evidence as to the truth or falsehood of the statement, but really, by definition, Christianity being a belief in the divinity and teachings of Jesus Christ, is hard to see in someone just by looking at them, right? Its a personal thing, a belief.

Unlike a banana, which you can easily identify just by looking at.

So, doesn't it make sense that, in matters of belief and conviction, we kind of have to take people's words for it? If Mormons, as a group, say, "Hey, we're Christians!" shouldn't we just sort of accept that at face value?

Honestly, what motivation could Mormons have to say they're Christians if they're really not. What is the motivation (if not competetive fear) for "true Christians" to exclude the Mormons who just want to be in the club?

It seems to me that a certain group of Christians has attempted to redefine and refine the word so that it more closely approximates their particular brand of Christ-worship or belief, in order to then be able to point their fingers and say, "Neener neener neener! You're not Christians!"

And that's what seems so incredibly immature to me.

I doubt Mormons would take exception to people saying they aren't "Evangelical Christians," or that they aren't "Bible-only Christians," or that their doctrines are "different from mainstream Christianity." But to say they aren't Christians? Come on, grow up a little.

Why are all the mormons pointing to lds.org? Are you avatars? Can you speak for yourselves? Are you scared of misrepresenting what you believe? think on that for a moment. Do you really believe or are part of a "fellowship". is it the fellowship you are part of then? Is it the fellowship you worship, or Jesus? Are you a mormon, connected to Jesus, without the Church? If not, why not?

Why do you need to label yourself as mormon to love Jesus and live by his teachings? "Where two or more people gather in my name, I'll be with them."

I can worship Jesus under a tree. Why do you need a church?

Democrat Mormons. I know many and I live in what is probably the most Republican county in Utah. My office at Brigham Young University is about half democrat. One of my closest colleagues is a devout Muslim from Palestine. She recently facilitated a visit from three Iraqis to campus, a Kurd, a Sunni, and a Shiite. They were impressed with how well Mormons take care of each other and also those who do not belong to our faith. My colleague told them that her Mormon neighbors care for her as if she were one of them. She said that they could learn a lot from us about living together in peace. From conversations with my colleague I know there is also much we can learn from them. When I want to know something about Islam I ask her, not someone who hates Islam out of ignorance. Also, my dissertation advisor at Brigham Young University is a devout Evangelical, and holds leadership positions at a Mormon University. Under his direction I am working on a paper regarding the importance of including both theism and secularism in the national dialogue. When you consider Mormonism world-wide, many of us are living the pluralism that so many others only talk about. If you want to know about Mormonism, don't ask those who hate us. Go to lds.org, or for some of the more "obscure" questions go to fairlds.org.

"I don't know which it is, but I do know that listening to fools or liars is never profitable.

Posted by: jongoff | December 7, 2007 12:27 AM
"

Show them where they are wrong then. You are playing in to what is being said here.

"I think Harlan Elison said it best, "You're not entitled to an opinion, you're entitled to an INFORMED opinion.""

Therein lies the problem. Who is doing the informing? You? Mormons? Republcains? America is freedom for all. Not just the republcain or mormon cult. Now when you strat talking about a man that is to represent all americans, then you peopl have a problem. Just a fact. The gop is done. The sooner you realize your time is over and wa used poorly, the sooner we can start to move forward.

Why would Mitt Romney need to explain the specifics of his religion? He's not a spokesperson for his faith. He wants to be president of the United States. That has nothing to do with his religion other than the fact that his religion has shaped him into the great candidate that he is. He shouldn't have had to say anything about his religion, but others made it an issue, so he felt the need to lay it to rest. He only mentioned "mormon" once because his speech wasn't about his religion, it was about the fact that a test of religion is not and should not be required to become president of a country where freedom of religion (or freedom from religion if that is the choice) is valued. Our society has come so far in the area of tolerance. It is rarely socially acceptable to criticize and degrade a group of people in this country, but mormonism is one that many people have no problem openly insulting (and behind the backs of their mormon friends and neighbors whom they say are very good people.) Honestly, think about it. What is so scary about Mitt Romney? What do you think his mormonism is going to make him do that will hurt the country? There are many successful and powerful people in this country who manage businesses and organizations without their religion being an issue. If you sincerely want to know the answers to the questions that you have about the mormon religion, don't you think the mormon church would be the best place to find those answers? Do you really think that the mormon church tells everyone that it believes one thing and then teaches something completely different? That's absurd. A religion that expects so much of it's members, would not have many followers (even converts from other religions) if as soon as people got into it, they found something completely different than what they expected. It is a religion that is very open with it's beliefs. So open that it has developed a website specifically designed to answer questions for those outside of the church who have questions about the church's doctrine. Don't you think that would be the best source of information about the specifics of mormonism? Forget Mitt Romney's speech, go to www.mormon.org. If you're looking for something exciting and intriguing like celestial sex or spirit babies, etc., you're not going to find it at mormon.org because those are topics that anti-mormons create to make the mormon church sound weird and out of touch with reality. On Sundays while some churches are teaching their members that mormonism is a cult and to completely avoid it, members of mormon churches are spending their time studying the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.

"sperrico...you are so sadly mistaken. Where do you think your rights come from? Evolution? Or have they just existed since the dawn of man? "

No. They come from a document. Research how america really came to be. God enabled it through years, and yes he enabled it. But men made the constitution, perhaps with God's guidence. Read up on the age of enlightenment. Payne. French revolution. Locke.

That is were our freedoms come from. The age of enlightenment. And My german ancestors. :) Justkidding. Since groups are taking credit for founding america, I don't want to leave out my ancestors. Read about the age of enlightenment. How many of those genius's are from scadanavia? Ho bed of genius's. HE HE HE.

The fascists had to have hitler just to put a black mark on the german people. Hold us down before we are to free. :) Frickin republicans. Half joke, half truth.

"Even a cursory reading of the writings of the founders makes this evident, but like children who cover their ears and chant inane noises to drown out what they don't want to hear, the secular progressives talk over and around the facts, ignoring them completely. It's refreshing to hear a candidate speak like one of the founding fathers, openly about faith, and not separating the nation from God."

And now you know why the gop is done. Not seperating the nation from God? The founders did that for us. BEcause they were religous changes nothing. What if they happened to be muslim? Buddists? Atheists? What they were is of no conequnece. The laws they made ensued the seperation, to everyone but rush and o'reilly dittoheads, like our buddy here. By his word usage.

to infuse religon into politics cheapens both. I don't want my religon used to raise dollars for republcians who will mislead the flock. Think aobut it from a christians point of view that is not a republvain. A christan that does not want to murder people, hurt sick children, not not treat his neighbors like himself. You know A REAL CHRISTIAN.

"Celestial Sex. The definition of sex is the procreative power of a species to create offspring. How did God create us, his children, by blowing bubbles? Making a wish and blowing out candles? Easy bake oven?"

And now you see my problem. They pretend to know the will of God. You cannot pass off that which no one knows and call it truth.

Again, do your thing mormons. Worship what and how you like. But you do not represent me, or christianity, IMO. Not through teachings or labels, but by words and actions. Speaking from my own personal experiance.

"We Become Gods. Christ commanded us to be perfect, even as God is perfect. He also told those who accused him of blasphemy: "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"

"Baptism For The Dead. - Paul, Corinthians 15:29 - "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?""

One line, a religous teachings does not make. From my prespective it's like george bush and the republcains, or lawyers. They lay out their doctrine or goals. then they look for loop holes to valdfiy what they have created.

God created christianity. Judism. you can debate islam.

you know God is involved through the good works of his people. HArd for me to explain. In my opinon Men created mormonism. Like a club, or cult. "If your not with us your against us". But that is just one man's opinion. Anyone that would bow before anyother man, and give that man all he/she is not a christian imo. In terms of religon. It's an individual journey. When money and politics get involved it is no longer religon. It is then business.

you peopole do, do a lot of good work. So bless you.

"I hope people are smart enough to realize I do not believe everything I write is truth. But how is that differant than any other source they get their information from"

Meaning all the "news" I pass on is from somone else. I'm not a reporting in the feild, so I rely on others. Sometimes they lie.

Nothing to do with You eugene. Talking about these right wingers here. :) The ones that only see the source not the word. Similar to our problem. The "chrsitian" right and the catholics no longer see the word of Jesus. Like the mormons, they all now follow men. They through GOd under the bus long ago. But we're still here Eugene. We will not let the false prophets NOT be called out, while misrepresenting our religon for personal or political gain.

"JKrishnamurti,

I enjoy reading your post. You say you, too, are a Christian Socialist. Respond to my post here. I'd like to develop a correspondence, if that's not too forward for blogs. Sorry.
P.S. Let the universe handle the details.

Eugene Debs '08

Posted by: legan00 | December 6, 2007 10:19 PM
"

Likewise Eugene.

I hope people are smart enough to realize I do not believe everything I write is truth. But how is that differant than any other source they get their information from. Growth through conversation is what matters, here. Those that would sabotage or hamper than change and growth show their face. An attack is only an attack if they take offense to it. I hope these people realize this. I don't believe the fascists like BIll O'Reilyl believe half the things they say. It's impossible. What they try to do is move the country a few notches closer than them. They can't possibly think they will get everything they want. I am the same way. Altough I don't lie :). I try and do my small part to counter right wing fascist machine.

This is the best and only way to pull infomation out. Maybe we can find a common ground and reunite this country. We must show the left, the people they hate (and rightfully so)are their brothers and sisters, countrymen. We must show the right many things. But the most of which, we need to hold the mirror up to them so they can see how they are being viewed. They have been mislead and lied to for many many years. Much of their world is built with walls of lies and propoganda. "That's the way the world works". No. That's the way the republcian world works.

This is america. We all live in our own worlds. That is freedom. Not,as the republcains believe, to be kings of our own lands. How about humans in our own universes? That is the beauty of God.

I can be reached by email at:

Rufus11_33@hotmail.com.

Email me anytime Eugene. I'd love to get your views on how we can move this country forward. There is so few of us lone wolf's :).

God Bless. I look forward to hearing from you.

"One question that every candidate should be asked is whether his allegiance, when he becomes President, is to the Bible or to the Constitution."

Do these two have to be mutually exclusive? The Founding Fathers used the lessons they had learned from reading the classics and the Bible when they wrote the Constitution. Reading the Bible gives one a better understanding of the Constitution, and vice versa. The two are not in conflict with each other.

Romney was right in not going into detail of his beliefs in his speech. He was right when he said that would constitute the very test of religion that the Founding Fathers disapproved of for choosing a president. If you really, truly want to know what the Mormons believe, but don't want to be confused by all the uninformed or misinformed drivel out there, go to the source. Go to www.mormon.com or www.lds.org.

I am disappointed in many of the comments above. The spelling, grammer, and general language only show their own ignorance.

If you want to know what Mitt Romney is about, look at his record as governor or his record as the head of the 2002 Olympics. In the latter, he turned around a failing organization and ended up financially in the black. That takes real leadership!

If you are concerned about whether he would be a good president, look at his convictions. He refuses to waiver on his belief in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Do you really want someone to lead our country who would change with the political wind?

I used to live in Oregon and stood firmly behind Governor John Kitzhaber even though he was a Democrat and I a Republican. Why? Because I always knew where he stood. I did not always agree with him, but I knew where he stood and respected that. Mitt Romney is that way. This speech made that even more clear to me.

Many base their lack of support for Romney because they fear his religion. Change that fear into knowledge. Go to www.lds.org or www.mormon.com and read what Mormons believe. A true Mormon (and I believe Mitt Romney is a true Mormon) believe in religious tolerance and loyalty to the government (see articles of faith 11, 12 and 13 http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,FF.html).

Let's find and vote for a President with real leadership skills and true conviction.

JKrishnamurti, made a comment about how there are no democrat mormons, This statments is utterly false. Harry Mason Reid, the senetor, is a mormon and a democrat. The President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a democrat. I am really dissapointed how so many people make broad statements about "mormons" or "Evangelicals" this is blind intolerance. How long before those same people will be making comments about "blacks". You preach tolerance while endorsing bigotry.

I just moved to Europe this summer after living all my life in Arizona. Romney is correct, The churches are empty. I have never been so shocked in my life. My family is the only one in the neighborhood who goes to church on Sunday. The other children ask why my kids have on dresses and where they are going. We tell them to church and they ask "why"? The churches are so poorly attened that in one church building, 6 different religious faiths will meet because church is so poorly attended they can all share one church. I miss my America and to those who actually know what religion means. I wish that we could listen more to Romneys words and be more tollerent. We all believe something different then are neighbor but that doesn't make our neighbor bad. We need to be tollerent of each other. Be greatful that we can believe different things. That we do have that freedom in America. I think this was a good speach that Mitt gave. Thanks Mitt.

williamoo20008 said mormons beleive in:
"Celestial Sex
Baptism For The Dead
Communicating With Dead
Magic Clothing
Blood Attonement
We Become Gods
Multiple Wives
Blood Oaths
Spirit Babies
Cult Practices And Secret Rituals
Living Profits Today"

1,Celestial Sex. Where do you get your facts from? The mormon faith has NEVER put out doctrine about that. But on a side note, eternity spent in celibacy sounds like Hell to me :p

2.Baptism For The Dead. Whats the big deal? The early Christian church (you know, the one established by Christ before all the apostles were killed off...) practised baptism by proxy. They didn't dig up graves and baptise dead people. The were baptized on behalf of their loved ones who had never had the chance while alive.

3. Communicating With Dead. Again, where do you get your facts from? You don't beleive in guardian angels, or loved ones long dead watching over you?

4. Magic Clothing. Garments aren't magic. They're a reminder of sacred covenants you've made with God. God forbid we should remember him once in awhile.

5. Blood Atonement. You mean...the atonement of Christ? What a crazy concept, obviously beleived by only the craziest of zealouts. Oh yeah, and 1.5 billion Christians.

6. We Become Gods. Are you saying the concept of eternal prgression is more disturbing than the concept of strumming a harp in heaven for the rest of eternity?

7.Multiple Wives. Only a tiiiny portion of the early church was commanded to take multiple wives. This was after the mormons began to be chased down and murdered. Many of those marriages were for the financial protection of a woman who had lost her husband and many of those marriages were not consummated. You'll notice in the bible plural marriage was a practice from time to time. Get over it already.
8. Blood Oaths. Again, where do you get your information? Not from lds.org, that's for sure.

9. Spirit Babies. You mean...the preexistence? I don't know what you mean. You're so vague. And touchy. Oh, and misled.

10.Cult Practices And Secret Rituals. Legally, the mormon church is a church, not a cult. So no, the mormons cannot, in fact, take part in cult practices. And as for secret rituals, they have temples where they take care of sacred things. Not secret things.
11. Living Profits Today. I know, right? The idea of God still caring about His children enough to guide them through a prophet is absolutely preposterous.

Mitt Romney does not need to, expound upon his faith in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints; other than to say that he is active in his faith.

For anyone that has any question about what it means to be active in the LDS church, those answers are almost hunting you down. Maybe the next time those guys in white shirts and ties with black badges knock on your door ask them all of your questions. they have the answers. If they don't have the answers with them they certainly have the rescources to get back to you in a couple days with the offical standing of the LDS faith.

Also if you prefur to not speak to someone in person you can use sources such as www.lds.org, and www.mormon.org. These two sites should be able to answer almost any question you may have about this church. The answers are very easy to find if you really are searching for what Mormons believe maybe you should ask a Mormon or Read their official documents. If you were trying to learn about how to grow oranges, would you ask an orange farmer or an apple farmer? There are a lot of sites produced by non-mormons that claim to have the "truth" about mormons, but how many of them have experienced the things they are talking about? There are also a lot of sites by former active members of the mormon faith that simply have a grudge against it and want to do everything in their power to disscredit it. It only makes sence to go to the source, then you can be the judge of which peices are truth and which peices are false. Or maybe you are afraid you'll be brainwashed? haha. I for one think that all of you have the ability to sort through the facts and come to your own conclusions who is right and who is wrong.

Someone previously stated that most Mormon's are Republican. Although I personally know quite a few LDS Democrats, most are Republicans. One reason this is so could be this:

The things we believe in are conservative in nature which is what the Republican party is all about.

We believe in being self-sufficient, not expecting that something is "owed" to us and in taking handouts.

Conservatives (which are most Republicans) want government programs to be reduced. We don't need HillaryCare. We need HealthCare that everyone has access to, but not subsidized by the government. (Take a look at the government health care systems in Japan, Australia and Canada as examples to what we CAN'T do in America).

We know that people do fall on hard times occasionally, and we make it possible to help those people out short term and get back on their feet. We don't need Welfare the way it is now, which entraps participants to stay on the program, but should be designed to help out for the short term while they work to improve their situation and get themselves out of the hole.

In reading the previous blogs I am so surprised at how many people have misconceptions about the LDS faith.

I looked up the definition of Christian in the dictionary and it said:

....of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ.

According to this definition, how can people of the LDS faith NOT be Christian? I just can't understand the reasoning behind believing it's a cult! It makes no sense!

As for Mitt's speech....he did an incredible job...and he definitely has my vote.

I was actually leaning towards Huckabee until I watched the YouTube debate and Huckabee said he wanted "Scholarships" for the children of illegal immigrants. Did anyone hear Mitt Romney's response to that? It made me sit up in my seat and pay attention. Mitt's got the focus and I believe he would do a great job!

You know, I keep wondering who gave evangelicals the right to define who a Christian is and isn't.

Such a childish little argument...

"Are not."

"Am too."

"Are not!"

"Am too!"

I, for one, am just glad Romney's speech gave you wankers something to blog about besides whether or not his landscapers happened to be illegals or not.

Romney has my vote, not because he is or isn't Mormon; he's the only candidate with a snowball's chance of defeating the Dem candidate. Content aside, today's speech proves he is thoughtful, educated, and articulate enough to win people over to his ideas.

Which he will have to do, if the current content of House and Senate are any predictors of the presidential race, right?

I'm dumbfounded by the ignorance on this blog by people who profess to know dark and sinister secrets about mormons and Romney's connection to them, or who think that Republicans are just a few steps above the brownshirts.

I've been a conservative all my life, and a mormon for thirty years. Like Socrates, I believe the unexamined life isn't worth living, so I know why I believe what I do.

The detractors of both Mormonism and Conservatism have either no idea what they're talking about, and the nonsense they're attributing to us is based on paranoia, or misinformation they've been fed but never checked, or they're flat out liars.

I don't know which it is, but I do know that listening to fools or liars is never profitable.

I think Harlan Elison said it best, "You're not entitled to an opinion, you're entitled to an INFORMED opinion."

An idea! A cage match to the death of ALL Christians and Moslems! And the LDS people could profit from the ticket sales. And we rational people could progress with science and space exploration once these regressive nuts were gone.

h43012,

Yes. But the word created is not born. The two are not the same. The Constitution is Christian, so is you first & last name.

Eugene Debs '08

Sperrico,

The constitution doesn't mention God as the foundation of the nation, that's not what it was supposed to do. But the Declaration of Independence says that all men are given certain rights by God, and that government was created to uphold those rights.

tom: What part of the United States Constitution has god mentioned as the foundation of the nation? Other than listening to Am radios wackos who have profited handsomely from the BushCo years try reading codified law. As you may recall, the Soviet Union ceased to exist. But religious wackos who think that THEIR god exists, like you, are killing people, and they invite destruction. The Soviets were at least rational. Something religious folks lack.

In response to the question of why blacks weren't given the priesthood until 1978, I don't know. But I will also state that the gentiles were not allowed to even be baptized until after Christ's crucifixion(read The Acts chapters 10 and 11). So again, I don't know why some groups of people are restricted in some way or another from the church but I believe that God has his reasons and who am I to question him.

kyliex08,

Open arms. This is theme which you deserve. I am a Methodist, and a Christian Socialist. What I love about Mormons is there affinty for activism. I'm afraid much of society has allowed itself to be victimized. Look up the Wesley Brothers or the Methodist Church to better understand me.

Eugene Debs '08

Im a proud mormon, and have been my whole life. im 17. and i have had my doubts too. but ive prayed and pondered, and i know for myself.

someone up there was talking about "a man and his wife rowing to america.." well thats true. we believe that Nephi, his father Lehi, and their whole family, as well as another large family, traveled on a large ship to the americas.ask any mormon child and they know that story. NO we dont worship any of these people, nor do we worship joseph smith or any other prophets. we worship Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father. period.
oh and someone else up there said that everyone whos not mormon will burn. actually, we mormons believe that almost everyone, mormon and nonmormon, christian and nonchristian, will go to heaven.

so many of our beliefs are misunderstood and construed. its sad

and shame on the person who said that jahovas wittness is a cult. they are a very devout religion.
and us mormons arent a cult either.
i love my religion, and i wish that the critics would check their facts and talk to a few real live mormons. were pretty nice

JKrishnamurti,

I enjoy reading your post. You say you, too, are a Christian Socialist. Respond to my post here. I'd like to develop a correspondence, if that's not too forward for blogs. Sorry.
P.S. Let the universe handle the details.

Eugene Debs '08

sperrico...you are so sadly mistaken. Where do you think your rights come from? Evolution? Or have they just existed since the dawn of man? Please use some of that grey matter and dig into history to find where the answer lies. I am not saying you have to accept any religion, just accept that it is the Judeo-Christian tradition that has made it possible for you to have the rights that you do.

God and religion may be a fantasy...who can say...but it is the belief of the majority who also believe that YOU are allowed to believe anything you wish. That is religious freedom and that does not exist in Iraq or Afganistan due to Islam being a belief based on submission to religious authority.

I think you had best find out what our country was founded on and not the secular society you would like it to be...when you are done, you may want to move to the Soviet Union...ooops their society crashed because religion was removed as the basis of rights and men could no longer live under the athiest oppression.

I highly recommend everyone to the "Countdown with Keith Olbermann" show tonight. I just watched it, and you can get different parts of its archives anytime. Tonight was special in many respects as you will plainly see whenever you get a chance to spend a few minutes over the weekend.

tom: Nobody "grants" atheists anything. Non-believers have the Constitutional right not to indulge in fantasy. Foe a country more to your preference go to Iran or Afghanistan. Please leave the United States. You don't deserve America and its freedoms.

I am amazed at the amount of ignorance displayed in these posts about the comment Romney made on "Freedom needs religion". The founding fathers...even the ones that were not religious...understood that rights granted by one person to another or one group of people to a society, could be revoked at anytime. But rights from the "creator" based on the religious teachings handed down through the Judeo-Christian ethic of the last 4000 years could not be taken away without the destruction of all religious tradition. This includes the same rights granted to athiests and agnostics...given by God so that other men may not take them away. This is of course why so many on the left desire the removal of religion from our government...it limits the amount of control that can be placed on the population.

Class dismissed

Yeah, that religious meglomania, like what Jefferson, Adams, Washington, Franklin all had "religious" motivations for their actions. Those crazy religious nutjobs! Creating a country that allowed them to be free, but at the same time basing it on the traditions of judeo-christian principles... what were they thinking?

I'm sorry, but it's an indisputable fact that these men's moral compasses were refined by religion. Oh, and what about that Abe Lincoln guy? Yeah, he didn't allow his religion to influence his politics... oh wait, yup... he did, because his character was defined by his understanding of religion.

No one is trying to oppress anyone else, except the athiest who say, for two hundred years public displays of religion have been acceptable, but not by us, and because they offend us, you can't display them. That's oppression, telling people how and where they can worship is oppression.

Mitt Romney is speaking from an educated position. This country was founded by deeply religious men, and it was clearly and repeatedly acknowledged that they believed their course was set and blessed by divine providence.

Even a cursory reading of the writings of the founders makes this evident, but like children who cover their ears and chant inane noises to drown out what they don't want to hear, the secular progressives talk over and around the facts, ignoring them completely. It's refreshing to hear a candidate speak like one of the founding fathers, openly about faith, and not separating the nation from God.

With all due respect, Governor Romney's speech raises more questions than it lays to rest.

As many other commenters have pointed out, it is clear that Romney is deeply prejudiced against people who do not share the urge to publicly proclaim that Jesus is the Savior of mankind.

Many commenters have stated that in discussing this, that we are not talking about Mormonism, but about Mitt Romney.

But in his speech, and in his declaration of devotion and faith to Jesus, Romney has shifted the issue from Mormonism, to himself.

Romney may not accept the applicability of sectarian doctrine, but we now must wonder afresh at what divinely inspired misadventures Mitt will lead us into.

After GW Bush's religiously colored megalomania, Mitt looks pretty bad.

This speech doesn't help Romney because he never even brought up the word that's causing him so much trouble: Mormon. GOP voters wanted him to say that Mormons are basically stricter evangelicals and that, even so, he will cast off from the LDS and become a Christian televangelist.

http://www.political-buzz.com/

Is Christianity this stuff:
Celestial Sex. The definition of sex is the procreative power of a species to create offspring. How did God create us, his children, by blowing bubbles? Making a wish and blowing out candles? Easy bake oven? Let's be honest, whatever the mechanics, it was celestial sex. Why does it offend you to think that God, the creator of the universe, and therefore all our organs, sexual or otherwise, himself is incapable of the power to procreate? You think of sex as a banal act, but it's a sacred act, which is why God has put restriction on how and when a man and woman should consummate their relationship.
Baptism For The Dead. - Paul, Corinthians 15:29 - "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the d