The problem with the SC primary was that is presented not an opposing debate between Hillary vs Obama, but instead because of Bill's defensive remarks, and Obama's acknowledgement of them, a challenge by Obama to the status quo of Clinton more in the manner of a young buck taking on an older one, where one was black the other white.

This epic challenge had real impact in the sense that to the victor go the spoils, in theory, including the right to command the entire resources of the U.S. as the next potential President.

The duel - between President Clinton and Obama was stopped by the interjection of a fast and furious crop of both black and white pundits and leadership who were unwilling to entertain the challenge to Obama, rather a closing of the guard around Obama which, in effect, closed Clinton out - as inappropriate infusion into the race between his wife and Obama.

Owing perhaps to his Southern traditions, if not to his former status as President, however, spouse defense may have come naturally.

The implications invoke the deep divisions of black sociologist, Calvin C. Hernton, in his Sex and Racism in America, who said, "Any oppressed group, when obtaining power, tends to acquire the females of the group that has been the oppressor."

Viewed in this context, Clinton was following a long tradition of defense in speaking as he did in SC before he was abruptly cut off, and acknowledged that he was unable to defend his wife, saying "I can't defend her."

When such speculations are considered, losing the votes to Obama had real impact upon the racial dynamics of America in this context - by speculation.

I will vote for a democrat, however, I have not made a decision as to who I am going to vote for. One thing I have noticed about Obama is how he is now speaking...in a pronounced black southern accent. That is a turn off to me. After having Bush embarrass this country for 8 yrs, I would like to see a President who speaks intelligently and can bring back world respect to the US. I can't envision a hip hop lingo slang speaking President...or can I?

bsimon

I have a hard time picturing a 76 year old John McCain running for re-election. That is also why I can see him as a compromise candidate - whether he wins or loses in '08, '12 will be open for the others, especially Mitt and Huck.

lyle

All of us are rooting for you - I think I can speak for all of us that despite the wide range of political views, we all wish you well.

Thanks for all of your best wishes. I am not in any pain or have any symptoms from the nodule and the needle biopsy was iffy at best. I have seen the Cat and Pet scans on the computer screen and think it is best to go ahead and have it removed without further tests, if the lung capacity tests show I can have the surgery. Whether it is the big "C" now or not, it will be at some time.

churtmah writes
"Hopefully, like McCain, Obama will mount a resurgent Presidential campaign in 8 years"

If HRC wins the Dem nomination this year, Obama will beat McCain or Romney in 2012.

Lyle, good luck with the surgery.

Lylepink, Hope everything goes well... sending positive thoughts your way.

Sorry to hear about your illness lylepink, hope you have quick recovery. Godspeed.

Mark: Thanks, I go M & T for Pre-op Lung capacity tests. I have decided to go ahead with the surgery & forgo further tests if possible. I meant it both ways and vbhoomes, I am pretty sure you are wrong again. I think it will be a victory of sorts if Hillary is within 15% in SC today. I'm eagerly awaiting the results.

The funny thing is, and it cracks me up that people don't understand it, is that race is only a happenstance here. Obama was wowing voters in Iowa and NH, and speaking of Kennedy and King in ways that were both inspiration and emulation.

And Hillary had to go from above the fray to attack, as anyone who falls behind has to do. But here's the funny part. She attacked words, not action. And said Dr. King was both action and words, and basically attacked Obama as words only.

Now one can dispute that take on Obama, and people have, but it had absolutely nothing to do with race. It is only coincidental that Obama and Dr. King are African American.

For example, if he were white, exactly the same thing would have transpired, and race would not have been an issue. In fact, Obama has been compared to Bobby Kennedy. If he were white like Kennedy he would still have gave the great speeches, still called upon the memory of Dr. King and President Kennedy, and Hillary still would have said exactly the same thing and exactly the same results would have occurred, but race wouldn't have been an issue.

It's actually reporters amd people who don't understand this that inject race as an issue, in effect implementing that which they protest. If people were color blind and objective, which is hard to do when you don't get treated that way much of your life, as I as a white person can only observe and not know, then they would understand that race is only involved to the degree that people perceive Obama as African American rather than a visionary inspiring politician who has to deal with his record and past decisions and words just like any other politician.

And that is what Hillary, and her surrogate Bill, as anyone with experience knows you will encounter as the stakes get higher, an attack emissary, and the requirement to offer your own counter attack emissary and stay focused on issues and your opponent, but that is what Hillary attacked. The observation of race as an issue is only a weakness of the human mind.

Note that the statement applies to all people, and certainly just as many whites as blacks perceived this as a race issue, and certainly the reporters both white and black, but note that any perception that what I just said about weakness of mind has anything to do with race is proof positive of what I just said.

And I've seen enough posts from African Americans these last few days to know that they have posted more reasonable, thoughtful comments about all this than any reporter or analyst. All those who did make those posts know what I am saying, but most other comments show they don't know it.

Lastly, as an example, let's say that the opponent was instead a white gay women to put in a similar perspective. Again, exactly the same events would have occurred, and Hillary would have responded exactly the same way, but instead we would see people with a reaction that Hillary is discriminatory toward gay people, when in fact it has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Or race. Or gender. But all about the record and words and actions.

So it is both sad and humorous to see people miss the mark by so much, when if we were as objective as we would ask others to be, we would see that Obama standing as a person to respond, as he and his lovely wife are doing, would be seen as the person he is if we see the way we would want all people to see.

Obama will do well in every state, and with Edwards will certainly split the votes with Hillary for some time to come. It's for the people across the land to decide, and never before in my lifetime have I seen such strong cases made by multiple candidates as I am witnessing now.

The cases made are black and white, not the candidates. The decision made by us will be the better for it. Congratulations to John Edwards, Barack Obama, and Hillary Clinton for this campaign of campaigns.

I am a Hillary Clinton supporter.

rd

Thanks Mark_in_austin: We won't have to worry about illegal immigration if HRC wins, everybody will be moving to different countries. At the end of the day, I believe there is way to many americans like us for her to win. But I have been wrong about the Clintons before.

Obama's campagin was over the minute he started comparing himself to MLK. And yeah the fake southern accent doesnt go over well in the rest of the country either.

Obama's campaign gettoized itself and played the race card the dday after NH, whenm it accused voters of racism.

Now he is the angry black candidate, who is also a whiner. The rest of America says, "If the Clinton's are racist, and NH voters are racist, then what does this guy think about everyone else?"

He doomed himself, or Axelrod did. He's done.

After having defended Bill Clinton's presidency and abhored the relentless personal attacks against him, I'm now quite disappointed in him.

He's like someone who has been abused and has now himself become an angry abuser. People who feel like I do feel doubly let down, for his current behavior and for our past faith in him.... Hillary was only bearable because we thought Bill would be a steadying hand. Their blitzkreig tactics against Obama erases that hope.

There have been enough Clinton and Bushes, it's time for a change. If Hillary gets the nominations this Independent but lifelong-leaning Democrat may support the Republican nominee, could never not vote.

http://whathappenedtomycountry.blogspot.com

Colbert King's column in today's WaPo sums up why I don't want any more Clintons in the White House.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/25/AR2008012502780.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Mark - resonded to your e-mail, I haven't been on-line since my last post yesterday

bhoomes, I own a lot in Baja. If you have something in NZ or Australia you'd want to trade we can both live out the HRC years overseas.

If HRC is sworn in next year, I believe I would perfer death, than 4 more years of this soap opera.

Rufus, I read your impatience with the past.

Some day your time will be the "past" for some young person. Would you want your time to provide any guidance, or would you expect that generation to reinvent the wheel as if nothing came before?

There is a formulaic expression you may know:
Those who deny the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat the failures of the past.

It will not hurt you to read the short speech I cited.

Lyle, you wrote:

"I hope I will be around to see her sworn in as our next POTUS..."

I hope you mean that you eagerly anticipate HRC's election, not that you fear that you will not be with us come November.

I wish you good health.

peterdc: Hillary has spent most of her life trying to help the less fortunate, as has Bubba. The "Hillary Haters" keep their "Thing" going by repeating things that have been around, mainly about Bubba, for at least fifteen years. I hope I will be around to see her sworn in as our next POTUS, and see what they have to say in the following weeks after she takes office.

I don't know if this is the place to predict the storyline - and perhaps not for now but a year or two from now - Obama / South Carolina / 2008 is McCain / South Carolina / 2000 - the Obama campaign (even if it wins) is done in by relentlessly negative and subversive campaigning by the opposing candidacy. Obama, like McCain, will look back to South Carolina and wonder "where did it all gone wrong?"

Hopefully, like McCain, Obama will mount a resurgent Presidential campaign in 8 years

I was a big Clinton supporter during the 1990s. I went to the first Clinton inauguration when I was 12 and was proud to stand up to the constant attacks leveled against him. But with the 2008 campaign I am suddenly unsure of my past support and faith. The Clintons may have been victimized in the 1990s but they sure aren't now. Have they not paid attention to the past 10 to 12 years? Personal gain doesn't mean that much when it is contrasted against the interests of the nation. I hope the Hillary camp keeps this in mind - because even if she wins the nomination - a Presidential election with an alienated Democratic base versus a McCain candidacy with a Republican base that hates the Clintons will be one with many more questions than answers

Reynolds tells of Churchill "fighting and writing" WW2. Utterly fascinating for history buffs.

And Churchill gave some damn good ones, too.

Jim, have you read Reynolds' book on Churchill:

"In Command of History"?

I highly recommend it. I bought it in England as a Penguin paperback, but I suspect it is available here.

JimD - Definitely Lincoln's Second Inaugural
Address. That is why I cited it above and posted a web page.

Walk into the Lincoln Memorial and read it on the plaque and it is overwhelming.

he was buried on my 13th birthday and I remember watching the funeral on TV

I meant to add that the pomp and circumstance really grabbed my attention and started my interest in his life. I don't suppose this is appropos of anything on this thread, but it also had a lot to do with fostering my interest in history.

Mark

You called the Gettysburg Address the second best political speech in the English language.

What do you conisder the best? Lincolcn's second inaugural address gets my vote.

I think some of Churchill's speeches in WWII are in the top 10. I am a definite Churchill-phile, he was buried on my 13th birthday and I remember watching the funeral on TV - we had a snow day as I recall.

Don't fret mikeb. they are republcains is sheeps clothing and should be reated as such. What is the differance between clintons fascist propogandists and bushs?

Very little and in some cases they are the same people. The gop is a fish out of water breathing it's last breath. They will do anything to keep power. Fear the yale plan, I told you :).

The great thing is many people will spite the propogandists. NH showed us this. The propoganda link has been broken. They no longer control the country.

We got em mikeb. don't worry man. It looks bad right now. But the gop (clinton included) can't win. The battle has already been fought. Unless they stuff ballots they have no chance. Let's just hope we can get them red handed.

Stay strong brother. We didn't do all this work for nothing. Once the chain is broken. Once america is truly free. We will never be fooled by fascists again. The internet is the key. That is why the gop would destroy it.

As long as we have the internet we can't lose. WAtch for false prophets and wolfs in sheeps clothing. Like zouk is probably an edwards supporter, many play false roles.

We are smartr than them. We have the truth and facts on our side, like obama and edwards do, and to a lesser extent paul. It is impossible for the gop (clinton included) to defeat truths with lies and discrediting. the odl rules no longer apply. I'm not as concerned as you with these fascist tactics. I want them to lie. I want them to use the race card. I want them to cheat the ballot boxes. It will only accelerate their downfall. Think about the future. The old folk will die out eventually. they can't hodl up progress forever mikeb.

Good luck and God Bless.

Did it! I called all three campaigns to tell them that, as a pro-choice, anti-war, pro-gay marriage, pro-universal health insurance, pro-cap-and-trade Democrat, I can't support Hillary in the general, because she's missing the most important part -- decency. And I said how I'll give money to her opponent and actively campaign against her if she's facing McCain or Bloomberg. It was an incredibly vindicating outlet for some of the anger I've been feeling over the last few days. I urge anyone feeling the same way to do the same.

MAybe this site is a republican fishbow after all.

"Boehner: Republicans need to make sacrifices"

http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/0108/Boehner_Republicans_need_to_make_sacrifices.html

r

u

f

u

s

rufus - I have no idea, but I am very sad to see us come to this. Even John Kerry has called Bill Clinton a liar for his attacks on Obama. I have been visiting forums and have been called some of the vilest racist names inaginable by Cltinon supporters, as has Mr. Obama and other other people of color. It's like the entire Democratic Party, liberalism in genral, have been hijacked by these screaming hysterical feminists that use every dirty trick in the book to promote their candidate. And never mind that she is a worse swine, even more dishonest and more dangerous than Bush-Cheney. God help us all if they success in inflicting her on us as our standard bearer because defeat would be preferrable to that. In the end I see the Clinton's doing to the Democratic Party what Bush has done to the Republican Party.

USSR OR PAKISTAN MIKEB. :)

If we are not a nation of the people then what are we now? A fascist police state? Think about it people before going after me. If the people don't elect and the "leaders" are not accountable tot he people. then what are we now?

The Clinton folk are out, now, touting their "win" in Michigan! All of the Democratic candidates pledged to not run in Michigan (or Florida), but Clinton pulled as fast one and had her name on the ballot anyways. So, in this old style USSR elction, where only she was listed (and tens of thousands of write-in ballots for other candidates were simply tossed) she is claiming a win. SO much for ethics and rules and conscience: http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

FYI. fOR AMERICANS THAT DO NOT WANT TO GET SPYED ON BY THEIR GOVERNMENT. rEMEBER WHEN "LIBERALS" were terrorists for opposing bush? The street can run both ways very easily. After all teh gop is in witht eh terrorists. i would like to know what they are saying to, but there is a little thing called the consitution that says THIS IS A FEDERAL CRIME. Many people are going to jail for this and rightfully so. If we can keep the consitution a binding document that is. If we can re-insitute the doj after the gop destroyed it.

First step is not allowing them to concele their crimes. Once we do that justice will come by default. If it is a crime then he who commited it and conceles it is a criminal.

"Mitch McConnell blocks FISA Bill amendments: Dodd Responds
By: John Amato @ 2:15 PM - PST

McConnell filed for cloture to cut off debate on FISA in an effort to block offering amendments to the base bill yesterday and today he was saying that they should only vote on the original bill. Oh, really? He is stonewalling the process so Bush can include the issue into his SOTU address and scare the American people. Offering amendments to bills are a pretty common practice in the Senate and they have even pissed off Jay Rockefeller.

Download (85) | Play (107)

Sen. Dodd backs up Sen. Reid and calls out this antagonistic approach by Mitch and tells us how ridiculous it is for a member on the committee which is responsible for the FISA bill NOT to be allowed to offer up an amendment...He also said that he can't wait for the day when Republicans offer up amendments to future bills...

Llet's keep the pressure on and make some phone calls.

Marcy Wheeler has some of Reid talking today:

There are amendments that will make this legislation better. Now that's in the eye of the beholder. We all understand that. But shouldn't the Senate have the ability to vote on those amendments?

I say to my friends that it doesn't matter what we try to do, we can't do it. It appears that the majority [sic?], the president, and the republicans want failure. They don't want a bill.

Christy Hardin Smith:

The GOP's conduct was insulting -- to the Democrats, to the American public, and to the Congress as a whole. So much so that Sen. Jay Rockefeller is saying that he will not vote for cloture on Monday.

Every Senator needs a phone call, especially the Democratic ones -- because cloture on Monday would be contrary to balancing fundamental questions of liberty against national security interests. This is important business. The contemptable way that the Republicans have treated this, brushing aside debate with a high-handed, "my way or no way" dismissiveness, echoes the Bush White House and ought to be publicly rebuked...read on

Contact numbers are below: Make some calls people!
"

www.crooksandliars.com

r

u

f

u

s

a LITTLE LATE NOW IS IT NOT?

"Reid to Bush" Extend FISA or Go Without It "
by SmileySam
Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 11:06:25 AM PST
Harry Reid while just now answering questions at the National Press Club where he and Speaker Pelosi gave speeches, when asked where FISA stands because of the games the Republicans are playing made this statement, "Either Pres. Bush can extend the FISA law or he can go without it".
Of course Harry means the "Protect America Act", not all of the FISA law.
I was pleasantly surprised to hear this after spending the day trying to figure out just how the Right had managed to hijack control of the debate. I'm far from a expert like KargoX is, so you can imagine how confused I have been watching the Republicans controlling the votes on Amendments as if they are back in power.

I cannot honestly say if Harry can stop the stop the Cloture vote coming Monday or Tue. or not. I Would love to hear from our resident experts.

SmileySam's diary :: ::
I realize this is a short diary and hopefuly I will be forgiven considering the news it bears. Just to add a little background for those of you not up on this issue, here is a quote from Sen Russ Feingold yesterday about the Republican games.

"The conduct of Senate Republicans yesterday was shameless. After weeks of insisting that it is absolutely critical to finish the FISA legislation by February 1, even going so far as to object to a one-month extension of the Protect America Act, they obstructed all efforts to actually work on the bill. Now they want to simply ram the deeply flawed Intelligence Committee bill through the Senate.

"They refused to allow amendments to be offered or voted on, including my straight-forward amendment to require that the government provide copies of FISA Court orders and pleadings for review in a classified setting, so that Members of Congress can understand how FISA has been interpreted and is being applied. If the Republicans succeed in cutting off debate on Monday, the Senate won't even get to vote on the amendment Senator Dodd and I want to offer to deny retroactive immunity to telecom companies that allegedly cooperated with the administration's illegal wiretapping program.

"Democrats should not allow the Republicans to ram this bill through the Senate without amendments. Monday's cloture vote will be a test of whether the majority is willing to stand up to the administration and stand up for our rights."

tp to TMPMuckrakers

Update: The AP was at this function but in their write-up they totally ignored the above part of the question and answer session. Here's a link from RawStory to the AP http://www.rawstory.com/...

Update 2 : ACLU has posted a very clear and detail explanation of what is going on and what to do. Here's the link. http://www.dailykos.com/...

''

better late than never I suppose

peterdc - "I want someone who will stand up for the principles I care about and I know Hillary will do that." After all of the hate speech, the oh so thinly veiled racist comments, the lies about everything (Iraq, knowing Rezko, taking money from Rezko!, foreign campaign cash laundered through minimum wage earning dishwashers in SF and NYC), the vicious attacks on women whose only fauly was their being victims of Bill's sexual "attention", after all of that, what principle's are you referring to? Those of a weasel perhaps?

"There is a great truth there. Both speeches were TOO LONG.

Read Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address. It will choke you up. In three minutes.

Posted by: mark_in_austin | January 25, 2008 04:20 PM
"

Again. The year is 2008. How many centuries would you have us go in the past? You can't keep pointing to lincoln and reagan forever. They are gone, bless their hearts. Who is replacing them in leadership roles? Far fall. Why?

Propoganda? Lobbyists?

Get your head out of the past. Solve these two issues, meaning remove them, and we can do great things. Or keep talking about decades or century dead leaders. Don't eb surprised when you party is irrelevant. It is never due to the "other side". It's always you. Whether d or r. the other side is never to blame. If the leaders of said parties would get rid of the lobbyists and the peopel would ignore the propoganda we would be 1000X better off.

But the gop doe snot want that. Tehy woudl rather divide and conquer. They are invested in america failing so they can get low taxes. Great platform.

Not exactly related to this Fix entry, but the recent threads brought this Andy Rooney quote from 1982 to mind:

"Democrats (I think to myself) are liberals who believe the people are basically good, but that they need government help to organize their lives. They believe in freedom so fervently that they think it should be compulsory. They believe that the poor and ignorant are victims of an unfair system and that their circumstances can be improved if we give them help.

Republicans (I think to myself) are conservatives who think it would be best if we faced the fact that people are no damned good. They think that if we admit that we have selfish, acquisitive natures and then set out to get all we can for ourselves by working hard for it, that things will be better for everyone. They are not insensitive to the poor, but tend to think the poor are impoverished because they won't work. They think there would be fewer of them to feel sorry for if the government did not encourage the proliferation of the least fit among us with welfare programs."

Sometimes humorists do the best job of summing up differences.

Jazztao- what you don't seem to get is that the right wing is fighting with Hillary Clinton because of issues. That is the fight they will have with any other Demcratic candidate.

The right wing is against rights for minorities, immigrants, gays and lesbians, and is against choice. They will continue to be against these issues.

Obama and Clinton are taking very similar stances on most issues but Clinton is taking the stronger stands on Universal Health Care, Gay and Lesbian Rights, choice and the whole range of issues that the Democratic party stands for.

I don't know where Obama will come down on these issues but if the way Obama wants to get along with Republicans is to give in on these issues then that is not how I want us as Democrats to move forward.

I want someone who will stand up for the principles I care about and I know Hillary will do that. And she will win.

"I believe it was Einstein who said, "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." Listening to establishment Democrats speak, to me, is like watching someone slam their head into a wall over and over and not being able to do anything to make them stop. We've been through the Clintons. I thought Bill was a tremendous president. Truly. But, I also thought that the politics that got created between the Clintons and the Right was hugely damaging to our nation! Hillary can only exacerbate this damage. She will be incapable of extricating us from this partisan culture war. The Right sees her as the embodiment of the culture war. This animosity will hamstring her presidency "on day one".

I don't see how you don't get this. But, apparently most of your generation don't. Must have been the battles of the sixties!

-- jazztao "

Let's not take two steps back after the steps we made the last 2 years. electing clinton is electing bush again.

The Gettysburg Address. Yep, the second best political speech in the English language.
Two minutes. :-)

Because of the sermon structure of the MLK Day speeches, they could be allowed 18 min.
But both "went over".

I lost a trip to HI for making a 5 min. speech last 5:08. That was in 1958, but I remain sensitive to the issue.

"Yet who even knows the name Edward Everett anymore."

You? ;)

Also, I'm calling all three campaigns to let them know that, if and only if Hillary gets the nomination, I'll vote for McCain or Bloomberg (or stay home if neither one is in the running). I hope anyone else who feels the same way will do the same.

mark: When Lincoln gave the Gettysburg Address, he followed the greatest orator of the day, Edward Everett, who had given what was considered to be a brilliant two-hour speech.

Contemporary news reports barely mentioned Lincoln's brief remarks. Yet who even knows the name Edward Everett anymore.

Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address may be found here:

http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres32.html

A preacher once told me the perfect sermon was 17 minutes long because "your average ---
{sect withheld for PC} has an attention span of 18 min."

There is a great truth there. Both speeches were TOO LONG.

Read Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address. It will choke you up. In three minutes.

jeffwacker, are you round, yet relatively shapely in the manner of 17th C. conventional beauty? Reubenesque?

I am not asking for myself, of course.

I couldn't hear the speeches, because I was busy sleeping with Bill Clinton.

"I listened to Barack Obama for about 7 minutes and didn't get it. Besides being irritated at his fake southern accent, what I got was when we have a problem, blow a horn..."

Chris... this is the funny one, right?

We encourage users to analyze, comment on and even challenge washingtonpost.com's articles, blogs, reviews and multimedia features.

User reviews and comments that include profanity or personal attacks or other inappropriate comments or material will be removed from the site. Additionally, entries that are unsigned or contain "signatures" by someone other than the actual author will be removed. Finally, we will take steps to block users who violate any of our posting standards, terms of use or privacy policies or any other policies governing this site. Please review the full rules governing commentaries and discussions.