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Posted at 12:00 AM ET, 01/12/2011

Gun nuts

By Tom Toles

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***
Own worst enemy
It seems to be the intent, and hopefully it will be the result, that hardcore conservatives wish to portray themselves as unserious in the realm of American political discussion. Their duly self-appointed representatives in the comments section here are able footsoldiers in the cause. (A favored tactic here is arguing with something I didn't actually say.)

First has been their long descent into ever more flamboyant distortion of facts. The health-care debate, the actual nature of the deficit problem and climate change come to mind. Second has been their increasingly imaginative conjuring of bizarre conspiracies and deployment of innuendo. Try the birth certificate "issue," that Obama is an unpatriotic socialist, or conversely, or simultaneously, Nazi, "death panels" and again climate change. Third is their edging ever closer to hysterical talk, phrasing and imagery about revolution and violence as political tactics.

Now, however, the mere suggestion that in light of horrible shooting deaths and injuries, somebody might want to rethink the ramifications of their choice of words and images is depicted as some manner of totalitarian jackboot. A REQUEST for some restraint on violence-inflected language is painted as yet another outrage, to the permanently outraged. Is this a serious position? No more than the rest of the wacky menagerie of chimeras they've gotten into the cozy bad habit of bedding down with. --Tom Toles
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By Tom Toles  | January 12, 2011; 12:00 AM ET
Categories:  Guns  
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Comments

This one time,I am diverging the subject, but on the other hand it is Dr.King's Day, a day, one and all pay tribute and Homage to this day in the history of our nation,which changed the real Constitution of our Country as a nation.
We tend to view at infanticide or late term abortion in countries like Pakistan, as rather ignorant thing to do(an article in Yahoo news),but this great day, we not made any committment made-my response

Many points have been made regarding murdering infants(including unborn- infanticide) in Pakistan, curiously, American Media is very silent on every day killings(Murder) of Innocent Pakistani civilians, by American combat forces using Drones.This is a horrible crime,especislly after the recent muders of innocent people in Tucson,AZ. Even the tears of mourning has not yet dried up among the family,friends and the Nation, we, The American Citizens and Mr.Obama are chillingly quiet on murdering in Pakistan.Only mistake they did was, they were travelling together in a bus near Afghan border.
It is even more aborent considering,Pakistan is not at war with USA, as matter of fact, it is a friend combating along the side of America. Are we the hypocrits, it is not American soldier who was killed, just an innocent Pakistani, just a mistaken collateral injury. Looking at the context of this comment, we may even be tempted to say, Oh!! it is only a Pakistani infant, who might have become a Pakistani terrorist.
We are bemoaning, here ih this country, the fact that abortion is being carried out in the Trimester of pregnancy- a muder no doubt, just a pardonable one, the lady, all of a sudden, wanted an abortion, as a RIGHT, constitutionally bestowed. Is the right of an American to kill an innocent human being is justified and protected. It is with tears in my heart, I am asking myself, is Mr.Lochner a victim or a defender of our Constitution?
Silence on this subject can be heard even when there is PINDROP Silence, on both sides of the aisle but also our administration.This is Tragedy for our Constitution and why people want to kill Americans

Posted by: jayrkay | January 17, 2011 1:59 PM | Report abuse

I've been reading Mr. Toles commentaries for quite some time. I get the impression that he believes that more government intrusion into our lives is the answer to every problem that comes along. I can easily imagine him living in Germany during the 1930s and eagerly shouting, "Sieg Heil, Sieg Heil!"

Posted by: DirtFarmer1 | January 15, 2011 12:30 AM | Report abuse

"Do all you Libs here deny that the current plan to stop global warming through cap and trade will do nothing except make a few well connected rich folks richer and do nothing to slow carbon consumption?"

Posted by: dalyplanet
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How did the previous/present U.S. cap and trade formulae work out for nitrate and sulfate emissions from coal-fired power plants over the past decade? Not the process---tradeable permits for their legal emission---but the results from that market process?

Posted by: redhead1990 | January 12, 2011 8:44 PM | Report abuse

Again, criticized for something I didn't say...much like what TT was mentioning in his comments.

I never said "Liberals never do this". In fact, you'll see I pretty much said, "yes they do", when looking at ranger's link. Yes, some liberals do this. Not to the degree (again, media leaders and presidential candidates day in and day out) that conservatives do. I also said I don't condone it or defend it.

Also, no where have I said I "never watch or listen to those people". I DON'T watch and listen to them. I HAVE watched and/or listened to them. How many episodes of O'Reilly does it take to demonstrate how much of a bully he is? Only a couple. Thanks, that's all I'll have. *click* How many times does one have to listen to Limbaugh to catch on to what he is? Just about the same number.

I can't get to the off switch fast enough for my soul to not feel bruised.

Posted by: PrairieDog60 | January 12, 2011 6:19 PM | Report abuse

~~~Let me get back to something I said below. The childish and violent behavior on shows like O'Reilly (who never lets a guest he disagrees with talk very much, and then when they do, he tells them to "shut up"...basically a bully), Beck (basically just nuts), Limbaugh (arrogant and condescending, along with racist and sexist), and Fox News in general, are all responsible for the uptick in violence with regard to politics in this country~~~
pDog~~


that's quite a mouthful considering you never watch or listen to those people : )

Posted by: bertzel | January 12, 2011 5:30 PM | Report abuse

Pdog

I am surprised that you at least amoung the true blue here would not admit to the left having a little bit of their own vitriol to be worried about~~Just look at those thousands of Kill bush images. Not a one of the liberal masses here today taking some bit of responsibility for eye poking non Libs in general, and myself in particular.

ranger ~~~ I agree that Toles was a tenderfoot today in his post waa waa waa

Posted by: dalyplanet | January 12, 2011 4:48 PM | Report abuse

ranger

Interesting link. a little late for this firestorm today. Toles is already up with tomorrows post. Pretty ugly comments from some of those restrained caring liberal commentaters in their unified call for conservative restraint. I wonder if you and I are the ones seeing the world through tinted goggles or the other way around. There is strong sentiment that our view is not correct.

Posted by: dalyplanet | January 12, 2011 4:21 PM | Report abuse

And yet, also from AP, "Phelps-Roper (Westboro representative) says the group still plans to picket the Friday funeral of U.S. District Judge John Roll, who was also killed in the shooting targeting Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords that killed six people."

Posted by: jonroesler | January 12, 2011 4:21 PM | Report abuse

Here's a newsworthy concession: In a demonstration of their clear rejection of political opportunism in the face of tragedy, and as reported by the AP via WaPo, "Westboro Baptist Church agrees to not protest slain child's funeral... in exchange for live interviews on radio shows in Canada and Arizona."

How very Christian of them.

Posted by: jonroesler | January 12, 2011 4:13 PM | Report abuse

Nice "misdirection" pararanger. Fringe groups making t-shirts or posters, and taking pictures of them is not the same as a concerted effort by a former Republican VP candidate (and possible POTUS candidate), the number one talk show host on radio, and the number one cable news host on TV, all promoting or subliminally suggesting violence.

Many of the pictures on your link are repeats of themselves, many are encouraging justice by trying Bush and Cheney for war crimes (something I still think we should be doing), and others are just making fun of him for being...well...kind of a dolt.

I never endorsed such violent images encouraging anyone to kill anyone, never defended them, and never tried to say "but you do it too!". Again, I learned in 6th grade that that wasn't justification for doing it myself.

Posted by: PrairieDog60 | January 12, 2011 4:10 PM | Report abuse

PrairieDog60,

Everything you wrote about the right being extreme and the cause for the 'uptick in violence with regard to politics in this country' is just plain wishful thinking.

Take 60 seconds and look at the Liberal vitriol collected in photos and drawings on this website:

http://www.google.com/images?q=kill+bush&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=i70tTdjcKoKBlAfbkvH8Cw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQsAQwAA&biw=1280&bih=670

In seconds your point will vanish - recommend it for all the bloggers here.

Posted by: pararanger22 | January 12, 2011 3:46 PM | Report abuse

Distraction, change the subject, attack the messenger, use questionable statistics, etc. The conservative playbook is in full view on this issue.

Let me get back to something I said below. The childish and violent behavior on shows like O'Reilly (who never lets a guest he disagrees with talk very much, and then when they do, he tells them to "shut up"...basically a bully), Beck (basically just nuts), Limbaugh (arrogant and condescending, along with racist and sexist), and Fox News in general, are all responsible for the uptick in violence with regard to politics in this country.

You can't keep spouting this stuff, with hints about guns, crosshairs, "taking them out", all the other little cute and sometimes blatent references to violence, and expect no violence. SP saying the crosshairs didn't really mean what she suggested they meant, is pure BS. These people purposely try to appeal to reptilian brains regarding fear and self-defense.

Exploiting people's fears in tough times is easy, and the Republican plan of "attack" is exactly that. Make them afraid for their life because of the evil liberals, and they'll retaliate like...well, like "mama grizzlies"; violently and without mercy. All you have to do is search the web for violence against government officials over the last few years, and you'll see what's been going on. It's gotten worse, and it is almost all coming from the extreme right. No, this latest dude is probably just insane. I doubt he has the capacity for any mainstream ideology. This does NOT excuse what's going on in our media discourse.

Grow up people. For those that are fomenting hate and fear, stop it. For those that are listening to it and believing it, there are better things to believe in. For those that are supporting advertisers who sponsor such crap, shame on you. Most of us were taught in 6th grade how to resolve differences, if not before by our own parents. So...if you're supporting a violent method of dispute resolution, maybe you need to go back to the elementary playground and learn something. If you're defending such talk as "freedom of speech", then I suggest you protest the little 9 year old girl's funeral with the Fred Phelps nutjobs. They have about the same belief system about freedom of speech as you do.

Posted by: PrairieDog60 | January 12, 2011 3:35 PM | Report abuse

~~~This is the issue we are discussing, the first part of which you conveniently and selectively left out of what you quoted.~~~ JW

Actually I did NOT conveniently and/or selectvely leave out anything...I just
ZOOMED in on "climate change" period.

~~~"First has been their long descent into ever more flamboyant distortion of facts."
"Second has been their increasingly imaginative conjuring of bizarre conspiracies and deployment of innuendo."~~
JW

I agree some of the rhetoric is really bizzare...yet you cannot honestly deny some instances where things seem pretty, how shall I say.....'strange'???

Do you actually believe EVERYTHING your government tells you????
I don't...
How 'bout we discuss...oh I don't know...global governance???
The downfall of This Country? Maurice Strong....missing planes? The rich and the poor....
Homeland Security.....shall I go on there JW? Pick an actual topic and put in your 2 cents worth....tell us what YOU believe.

Posted by: bertzel | January 12, 2011 3:27 PM | Report abuse

"First has been their long descent into ever more flamboyant distortion of facts."

"Second has been their increasingly imaginative conjuring of bizarre conspiracies and deployment of innuendo."

This is the issue we are discussing, the first part of which you conveniently and selectively left out of what you quoted. Not the issue of climate change itself. The issue of climate change was used as an example of the types of where, he feels, this behavior comes into play. This blog, unlike admittedly many of Tom's entries, is not actually about climate change. If anything, dalyplanet with is loaded question actually proved Toles' second point.

Posted by: jhnnywalkr | January 12, 2011 2:41 PM | Report abuse

what would YOU like to talk about jw?

Posted by: bertzel | January 12, 2011 2:02 PM | Report abuse

~~~and climate change come to mind. Second has been their increasingly imaginative conjuring of bizarre conspiracies and deployment of innuendo. Try the birth certificate "issue," that Obama is an unpatriotic socialist, or conversely, or simultaneously, Nazi, "death panels" and again climate change.~~~toles


ouch jw

Posted by: bertzel | January 12, 2011 2:00 PM | Report abuse

So I have to ask,

Do all you Libs here deny that the current plan to stop global warming through cap and trade will do nothing except make a few well connected rich folks richer and do nothing to slow carbon consumption?

Posted by: dalyplanet | January 12, 2011 1:28 PM | Report abuse

So I have to ask,

Is it that you can't talk about any other subject besides global warming, or that it's such a compelling issue to you you just have to bring it up anytime, even when it has absolutely nothing to do with anything anyone is talking about?

Posted by: jhnnywalkr | January 12, 2011 1:53 PM | Report abuse

Also you libs

Would you deny that it is not a conspiracy theory anymore when the side that stands to make hundreds of billions of created money spends 3000 to 1 to prove their position.

Posted by: dalyplanet | January 12, 2011 1:38 PM | Report abuse

If it means anything to you daly, I agree with your assessment.

Posted by: bertzel | January 12, 2011 1:36 PM | Report abuse

YAAY!!! FOR THE GUY WITH THE REMOTE!!!
The Glenn Becks and Rush Limbaughs and Sarah Palins have exercised their megaphones to the point of extreme tinniness, and even their die-hard fans are growing weary of their shrill behavior.
The paranoid and fascist blinders that these guys want people to wear get pretty uncomfortable when innocent nine year old girls, federal judges, and retired folks are being buried for no reason except that they showed up for what seemed like a normal saturday public meeting with their local congressional representative.

They may not be directly at fault, but modern politics certainly made it easier for those clips and that Glock to be in the gunman's hands.

And as for 'blood libel' they might want to read up on Jewish history. The term has more to do with violent anti-semitism than with contemporary political semantics.

Posted by: thanksforfish | January 12, 2011 1:35 PM | Report abuse

So I have to ask,

Do all you Libs here deny that the current plan to stop global warming through cap and trade will do nothing except make a few well connected rich folks richer and do nothing to slow carbon consumption?

Posted by: dalyplanet | January 12, 2011 1:28 PM | Report abuse

The current hijacker in Iran denies the Holocaust,
China's hijacker of rights denies internal problems,
and the right wing here denies all sorts of things.

So the world is infected with this disease, like psychosis
and is prevalent in the world among hateful peoples.

Maybe some individuals are not salvageable, be we progressives try to bring the climate of education to allow salvation from destruction and despair. That may require calling out those who can cast souls into hell.

Remember when Superman was on TV and children would
act out the hero after the show? The same is ongoing
today, with TV personalities.. but among the adults.

Posted by: Tony-KS | January 12, 2011 1:03 PM | Report abuse

Gotta say, Tom, your reader responses are WAY up this week. If there's any correlation between popularity and insightfulness, you must be hitting it spot on.

That, or they keep reading because they hate what you're saying and find it useful to spend time thinking deep thoughts about it. Kinda like Limbaugh and Beck listeners.

(That second part was a joke. Sorry.)

Posted by: jonroesler | January 12, 2011 12:42 PM | Report abuse

" The GOP, led by Boehner, Pence, Ryan, and the Tea Party, made their case for repeal of Obamacare, keeping the Bush Tax cuts, cutting $100B from the budget , and following the Constitution. "

Well I guess their followers are a little disappointed that they failed on the last two and knew they would be unable to accomplish the first. On their first day in office they announced it would not be possible to cut $100B from the budget and two members missed swearing in while breaking rules for fundraising in the Capital. What a great group of elected officials to brag about !

Posted by: Falmouth1 | January 12, 2011 12:41 PM | Report abuse

Keep up the good work. The more vitriol you provoke, the more you're getting it right.

Posted by: ClaudiaCrowley | January 12, 2011 12:15 PM | Report abuse

Let me get this straight in my small, hardcore conservative mind: Mr. Toles is telling me that I am 'the enemy,' that I 'distort the facts' (I think that means I'm a liar), that I believe in bizarre conspiracies (I suppose I must be mentally unbalanced) and engage in hysterical talk (obviously unstable). He also used the term 'wacky' (which I think means kind of irrational). Finally, he asks that my ilk refrain from engaging in phrasing and imagery conducive to violence. Does that mean that if I called someone my lying, unstable, hysterical, unbalanced and irrational enemy I could provoke folks to commit acts of violence?

Posted by: bpadrino | January 12, 2011 11:47 AM | Report abuse

"A favored tactic here is arguing with something I didn't actually say."

Posted by: jhnnywalkr | January 12, 2011 12:02 PM | Report abuse

This is why we need a published Dem\Lib speak to English translator.(Maybe I should work on that)

See when Toles or other liberal scribblers do it, it is ART or ARTISTIC LICENSE.

When conservative scribblers or pundits do it, it is HATE SPEECH or FEAR MONGERING.

In English though it is FREE SPEECH or DEBATE.

Posted by: dalyplanet

-------------------

Nice analysis/assessment. Keep up the good work.

Posted by: pararanger22 | January 12, 2011 11:53 AM | Report abuse

Let me get this straight in my small, hardcore conservative mind: Mr. Toles is telling me that I am 'the enemy,' that I 'distort the facts' (I think that means I'm a liar), that I believe in bizarre conspiracies (I suppose I must be mentally unbalanced) and engage in hysterical talk (obviously unstable). He also used the term 'wacky' (which I think means kind of irrational). Finally, he asks that my ilk refrain from engaging in phrasing and imagery conducive to violence. Does that mean that if I called someone my lying, unstable, hysterical, unbalanced and irrational enemy I could provoke folks to commit acts of violence?
I always thought that exaggeration and hyperbolae were at the core of political cartooning; that the essence of caricature lay in portraying people and events as distorted through the magnifying glass of the author. But now Mr. Toles seems to have abandoned that tenet, at least when it comes to those who disagree with his weltaanschaung. Is he suggesting those who'd kill a cartoonist for drawing the prophet Muhammad with a bomb for a turban are to some extent justified because of the violent undercurrent running through the cartoon's image? At the risk of conjuring up an inappropriately violent image, I believe that Mr. Toles may be doing something akin to cutting off his own nose in order to spite his face.

Posted by: bpadrino | January 12, 2011 11:47 AM | Report abuse

Its funny that with all the finger pointing and hand-wringing by the left about certain spoken and written words and allegedly violent images in our political discourse, Mr. Toles sees no problem depicting a person in front of a firing squad to illustrate a poltical/policy point. See Mr. Toles' cartoon of January 5.

Or maybe that is just an example of one of those "media exceptions" to the left's grand societal engineering plans.

Posted by: 5551212

~
~

This is why we need a published Dem\Lib speak to English translator.(Maybe I should work on that)

See when Toles or other liberal scribblers do it, it is ART or ARTISTIC LICENSE.

When conservative scribblers or pundits do it, it is HATE SPEECH or FEAR MONGERING.

In English though it is FREE SPEECH or DEBATE.

Posted by: dalyplanet | January 12, 2011 11:43 AM | Report abuse

A Killer can easily lie.....

"First comes fear," says NY Times Robert Wright
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/before-hatred-comes-fear/?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=thab1

Then comes all sorts of evil.....

Posted by: Tony-KS | January 12, 2011 11:32 AM | Report abuse

~~While you and other gun nuts scream about arming against a tyrannical government (which often mean a Democrat has been elected), I fear angry, insecure, deluded, tyrannical gun owners far more.

Posted by: Trakker~~~

Just because one owns a gun trakker does not make one a nut...can you make a point without making others out to be less stable than you?

Posted by: bertzel | January 12, 2011 11:06 AM | Report abuse

~~Like what what?
jhnnywalker~~

Case in point, I suppose. I misread your post and read a comma where there was none...oops.
And I agree with your point of discussion.

Posted by: bertzel | January 12, 2011 11:00 AM | Report abuse

BluePelican: "...Just don't ask to control ammunition, nor register or compile a list of gun owners. That's where "sensible" ends, IMO."
=============================

Why? Why shouldn't firearms be registered? Why shouldn't ALL gun transactions be recorded and used to update a firearm ownership database available to law enforcement? Why shouldn't law enforcement be able to check and see if a person just issued a restraining order has firearm so they can decide whether it should be seized? Why shouldn't law enforcement know if a person deemed dangerously mentally unstable owns a firearm? Why can't we protect the innocent from dangerous felons or crazy people?

While you and other gun nuts scream about arming against a tyrannical government (which often mean a Democrat has been elected), I fear angry, insecure, deluded, tyrannical gun owners far more.

Posted by: Trakker | January 12, 2011 10:53 AM | Report abuse

~~Just don't ask to control ammunition, nor register or compile a list of gun owners.
That's where "sensible" ends, IMO.
BluePelican~~


Wow, I do believe I sprained my finger scrolling on down here!

anyway...I agree with you BluePelican,tho guns are registered and should be and why would you have a problem with that...Is not your car registered?

Posted by: bertzel | January 12, 2011 10:49 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: bob29:

["You might be proving the authors point. The shellacking was real but its cause was our unemployment rate and people's fustration over the bailouts. To assume it was based on some coheent and well planned agenda the right presented for our country is pure fantasy."]

-------------------

I assumed it was a political discussion that the Democrats lost, just as I wrote it.

The cause of the unemployment rate stagnation is due to the Democrats poor concept, poor management, and listless execution of their legislative agenda. They were lazy.

But since you brought up the 'agenda' thing, here are a few comments:

The leaders of the WH, House, and Senate, made their case for staying the course, i.e., stay with the Democrat's agenda.

The GOP, led by Boehner, Pence, Ryan, and the Tea Party, made their case for repeal of Obamacare, keeping the Bush Tax cuts, cutting $100B from the budget , and following the Constitution.

The GOP agenda lacked complete coherence but it wasn't bad for an off-year election when there is no clear standard bearer for the GOP Presidential nomination yet.

Posted by: pararanger22 | January 12, 2011 10:42 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: bob29:

["You might be proving the authors point. The shellacking was real but its cause was our unemployment rate and people's fustration over the bailouts. To assume it was based on some coheent and well planned agenda the right presented for our country is pure fantasy."]

-------------------

I assumed it was a political discussion that the Democrats lost, just as I wrote it.

The cause of the unemployment rate stagnation is due to the Democrats poor concept, poor management, and listless execution of their legislative agenda. They were lazy.

But since you brought up the 'agenda' thing, here are a few comments:

The leaders of the WH, House, and Senate, made their case for staying the course, i.e., stay with the Democrat's agenda.

The GOP, led by Boehner, Pence, Ryan, and the Tea Party, made their case for repeal of Obamacare, keeping the Bush Tax cuts, cutting $100B from the budget , and following the Constitution.

The GOP agenda lacked complete coherence but it wasn't bad for an off-year election when there is no clear standard bearer for the GOP Presidential nomination yet.

Posted by: pararanger22 | January 12, 2011 10:41 AM | Report abuse

- In the US, the only truly serious political discussion revolves around elections. We just had that serious discussion and the 'unserious' GOP crushed the Democrats by a historically significant margin, a blood-curdling fact the WP and Toles wish us all to forget - and quickly.
______________________

You might be proving the authors point. The shellacking was real but its cause was our unemployment rate and people's fustration over the bailouts. To assume it was based on some coheent and well planned agenda the right presented for our country is pure fantasy.

Posted by: bob29 | January 12, 2011 10:13 AM | Report abuse

Lest we continue the polarization,
let's hear what "sensible gun controls" are. Restrict handgun magazine capacity? Okay. Continue the ban on machine guns? Okay. Institute a real mental health check on purchasers? Okay.

Just don't ask to control ammunition, nor register or compile a list of gun owners.
That's where "sensible" ends, IMO.

BTW, the "hate-o-meter" cartoon connecting (linearly) rhetoric and "gun shots" isn't as sensible as today's.

Posted by: BluePelican | January 12, 2011 10:12 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: B_Al_Zebub:

["The right sells nothing but fear and ridicule (mostly the mouthpieces on radio and TV), and this tragedy in Tucson has just ratcheted up the rhetoric. Any call for sensible talk, even without assigning any blame is met with more ridicule and counter accusations. ...Let's just get back to what made this country strong, a large peaceful and prosperous middle class, made up of all Americans, not right and left enemies."]

-------------------

You accuse the right of selling nothing but 'fear and ridicule' then sum up your rant by asking us all to get together. Same tactic from OckamsRazor.

Your construct is the Liberal manifesto:

- portray a need for everone to come together...as long as:
* Liberals are in charge
* Conservatives are to blame for the problems in the first place
* The legislative agenda remains a Liberal agenda (because that's what we all really, really want anyway)

Never any recognition of the problems Liberalism has created.

Never any recognition of the vile horse-dung presented by the MSM, the NY Times, the WP, et al.

That never ending, unjustified hubris adds to the friction between the GOP and the Dems. That is a major contributing factor to the mass exodus of Independents from the Democrats voting column in the last election.

Happy to continue the debate but the calls for moderation of the political debate from your side of the aisle have been pretty lame.

Posted by: pararanger22 | January 12, 2011 10:11 AM | Report abuse

I do actually read Krauthammer, even though I don't like him to get the right's perspective, and I have to say he and Will are two of the worst. If you want to know how, read letters to the editor. Inevitably within a few weeks there will be one about some column from one or the other pointing out their deceptive practices. They don't actually necessarily LIE, but they pick and choose what they say and how they say it to support their pre-conceived ideas. It's their job to do that though so it's not really something to hold against them.

I read liberal columnists too and I don't take them at their word either. I will say this, I did read the column today, and considering my argument on this whole thing isn't that this shooting was "caused" by the right's rhetoric, I somewhat agree with him. I do, however, think that over the last few years the rhetoric from mainstream Republican party leaders, not just fringe nutjobs and nobody Representatives, has stepped over the line too much.

I also think Mr Krauthammer, despite his degrees, should not be attempting to diagnose people he's never met before based on third-party recollections, many, but not all, of which came after the shooting, and things the guy said on the Internet. He didn't quite do that, and he didn't say anything about the guy that's much in doubt, but he came close to the line on that one. If one's not reading carefully and with a critical eye, it could appear that he did.

Posted by: jhnnywalkr | January 12, 2011 10:04 AM | Report abuse

Its funny that with all the finger pointing and hand-wringing by the left about certain spoken and written words and allegedly violent images in our political discourse, Mr. Toles sees no problem depicting a person in front of a firing squad to illustrate a poltical/policy point. See Mr. Toles' cartoon of January 5.

Or maybe that is just an example of one of those "media exceptions" to the left's grand societal engineering plans.

Posted by: 5551212 | January 12, 2011 10:03 AM | Report abuse

Like what what? If you are asking me to explain my political beliefs I'm not going to sit here and do that.

If you are asking what is lacking in debate, I would think that would be self-evident if you look. I'm not going to reread all the posts here or yesterday, but if I remember right there was a lot of "But this guy said 'Xxxx' and he's a DEMOCRAT!" which is also not substantive debate on the issue, it's deflection.

Posted by: jhnnywalkr | January 12, 2011 9:56 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: jhnnywalkr:

["Oh, and pararanger22, I'm not saying he's wrong or right, but you should probably find someone besides that partisan hack Krauthammer to try to make a point. I see his name and I'm not even going to read what you posted he said. He will literally say anything, and has. For all his degrees and what have you, you may as well be posting something from Beck."]

----------------------

Acknowledged. That is too bad though - if you are willing to give me an example of an unsupported argument Krauthammer has made, I'll make a good faith effort to explore it. Krauthammer is an excellent writer that sums up the Conservative position(s) pretty well. Better than just about anyone else.

I'm not a Beck guy, actually,...can't quite figure him out. He makes good arguments sometimes but he is too creepy for me to waste time on.

I force myself to digest Krugman columns and other Liberal bag-men and women in order to try and understand the Liberal position. I read all of the Liberal WP columnists (Dionne and Robinson and Cohen and Milbank and Sargent) and there usual partisan spin. I can listen to Matthews but I can barely get through anything Olbermann has to say. Maddow? Forget it.

Anyway, I understand your point if you can't stomach a particular columnist.


Posted by: pararanger22 | January 12, 2011 9:54 AM | Report abuse

Is there any way to break this cycle? The right sells nothing but fear and ridicule (mostly the mouthpieces on radio and TV), and this tragedy in Tucson has just ratcheted up the rhetoric. Any call for sensible talk, even without assigning any blame is met with more ridicule and counter accusations. Bullets don't care if you're left or right any more than the roads and bridges you drive on do. Fixing bullets or bridges is something for all Americans. We are neighbors and co-workers. Don't you get along face to face with most people? It's easy to hide in a blog and play "us and them", but we're not a bunch of Jared Loughners. There is no conspiracy to take "your" country, or for government to control your lives. No American wants that, or accepts that. I do want government to regulate business though, because "anything goes" leads to economic disaster, and a public rip off. How do you like your 401k now? Or your home's value? This didn't take place in the last two years, and it affects everybody, but the extremely wealthy, and I don't want to take their money either, BTW. Let's just get back to what made this country strong, a large peaceful and prosperous middle class, made up of all Americans, not right and left enemies.

Posted by: B_Al_Zebub | January 12, 2011 9:52 AM | Report abuse

~~Again, for clarification, I'm not saying if you disagree with me you are incompetent because things I believe are impossible to rationally disagree with, by the way. I do find that many don't seem to try to do that, which disappoints me, as I'd rather have a substantive debate than what often passes for it here and other places.
Posted by: jhnnywalkr~~~

Oh really? Like what?
~

Posted by: bertzel | January 12, 2011 9:37 AM | Report abuse

Oh, and pararanger22, I'm not saying he's wrong or right, but you should probably find someone besides that partisan hack Krauthammer to try to make a point. I see his name and I'm not even going to read what you posted he said. He will literally say anything, and has. For all his degrees and what have you, you may as well be posting something from Beck.

Posted by: jhnnywalkr | January 12, 2011 9:23 AM | Report abuse

"A favored tactic here is arguing with something I didn't actually say."

A lot of that going around. I get it from a right-leaning friend of mine on Facebook all the time. It seems to be a favored debating tactic on the right. See your op-ed colleague Krauthammer's trumped up libel charge in today's paper.

Posted by: Beuttler | January 12, 2011 9:20 AM | Report abuse

lquarton, just to clarify for you and for anyone else, I was joking in that first post. See I did exactly what he accused people of doing there. I just thought it'd be funny, but I know it's hard to catch that sometimes in written communication, so I probably should have tried to be more clear.

The rest of your post I don't know if I agree. I think certain public figures have and continue to prey on people's fears, this is absolutely true. I try not to think that because the public falls for it they are stupid though. Most people just don't have the time to pay to much attention to the bigger picture when all they're trying to do is get by in their regular life. Others don't care, and some, yes, are stupid.

Again, for clarification, I'm not saying if you disagree with me you are incompetent because things I believe are impossible to rationally disagree with, by the way. I do find that many don't seem to try to do that, which disappoints me, as I'd rather have a substantive debate than what often passes for it here and other places.

Posted by: jhnnywalkr | January 12, 2011 9:17 AM | Report abuse

Tom Toles:

Please keep up the great work.

Not all who your read your rants or love your cartoons respond. A great but flawed politician once called that the "silent majority."

Was he right?

Posted by: billh39 | January 12, 2011 9:14 AM | Report abuse

If this was not politically motivated, as the Republicans claim, then why did he not shoot up a school, a post office, or a supermarket? It is pretty clear what this is about, and I do put part of this in Palin's lap, and Beck's also.

Posted by: banewman1 | January 12, 2011 9:06 AM | Report abuse

Mr. Toles,
Thanks for putting yourself out there.

Posted by: GeneTouchet | January 12, 2011 8:58 AM | Report abuse

~~So - the preliminary report is that this fellow had internal issues that have nothing to do with outside influences. Thus, your remarks are buffetted by false assumptions.
ranger~~~

No...the latest 'clinical' report is that he was in 'dreamland'...yep..."Inception" made him do it....just sayin'.

Better watch out there Toles, (chuckle)
~

Posted by: bertzel | January 12, 2011 8:53 AM | Report abuse

~~~~My Reply...
When I was in the Army and an expert rifleman; I was not allowed to have a weapon unless I was on guard duty or on the firing range. The weapons were locked up when they were not authorized to be used.
Why should any lunatic be able to buy a gun and ammunition no matter how deranged they happen to be?
I took a rifle away from a guy that told me he was going to shot his neighbor with the gun. I took the gun to the nearest police station and told a detective on duty what happened. He told me to give him his gun back and said that I could get in trouble for taking the gun.
You are right Bert. Guns do not kill people but bullets do kill people.
Our obsession with weapons and malicious behavior is creating a whole culture of sociopathic killers.
Why do we want to be a nation of raving maniacs with no control over malicious behavior?
Dave ~~~~


Dave. Not every lunatic is able to buy a gun. There are laws in existence where there is a ‘waiting period’ and back-round checks. Then again, as I have said many times before…our system is broken and I am sure that many ‘fall through the cracks’. Your description of the police incident is another example…
And I might also add that we all appear to be lunatics in this day and age.
Bullets don’t kill people either dave. It is the person who puts the bullet in the gun, points the gun at ‘their target’ and pulls the trigger.

You cannot take guns away from the general public. That would be more idiotic. The general public does not abuse the power of the gun. You cannot ‘punish’ the whole because of the few.

I do agree our current culture is in a major negative flow…the damage has already been done tho and it is up to the survival of the fittest to move forward…with eyes wide open.

Oh and for the record dave… I never would have made it in the service…I don’t think I would have been able to point a gun at another human and pull the trigger…unless of course that person was going to kill me, in which case, I would never want to be put in that situation…not willingly.

Posted by: bertzel | January 12, 2011 8:45 AM | Report abuse

if they bring a knife to the fight,we'll bring a gun--obama 2008
"instead of running for governor of florida, they ought to have him and shoot him. put him against the wall and shoot him" ex-rep paul kanjorski,D-Pa re republican rick scott,florida gov. oct 23 2010

Posted by: trixnnort | January 12, 2011 8:31 AM | Report abuse

After wading through all the false equivalences, and tripping over all the straw men to get to this space, I've decided a more constructive use of my time would be to go out in the yard and nail some Jell-O to a tree.
I do remain a Tom Toles fan

Posted by: roboliberal48 | January 12, 2011 8:22 AM | Report abuse

GaryEMasters wrote:

["The cure to speech is not censorship. It is more speech. And education. Too many people have yet to learn critical methods to evaluate what they hear and read. Their gullibility to liars keeps them angry about things that are just not true.
As for guns, the Second Amendment is not written in stone. Perhaps we do not need an armed population now. Just change the Constitution. That will keep lots of us happy. If you got the votes, go for it."]

--------------------

It's amazing to me that a major component of Liberal messaging is that Conservatives aren't smart enough to understand:

1 - that the Liberal point of view is inviolate; i.e., if you Conservatives were just educated enough to understand what we're telling you, then you wouldn't be so frustrated and angry
2 - that this anger makes Conservative want to go grab their rifles and ammunition and head for the nearest water tower
3 - that Conservative minds are an empty pallet for Conservative talk radio and talk TV hosts to paint whatever picture they want to in our very small Conservative brains

Liberal media layed down their dastardly cards this week trying to blame the Tea Party for the shooting of our Congresswoman. This contemptuous lie will be one more source of motivation to continue to vote out more of the Dems in 2012.

Posted by: pararanger22 | January 12, 2011 8:11 AM | Report abuse

And who pray tell are "the rest of the wacky menagerie of chimeras" Toles has "gotten into the cozy bad habit of bedding down with?"

Posted by: pjgoodine | January 12, 2011 8:07 AM | Report abuse

Maybe we should ban people from reading Marx like the shooter was, left wing crazy talk seems a common theme among political shooters.

Maybe while we are at it we could ask our President to stop the same sort of hard line talk like when he said "Bring a gun to a knife fight"

Posted by: flonzy1 | January 12, 2011 7:51 AM | Report abuse

You conservatives don't get it. You want to win now more than you want your grandchildren to have a future and live. Your minds are diseased.

Posted by: pdurand | January 12, 2011 7:38 AM | Report abuse

The cure to speech is not censorship. It is more speech. And education. Too many people have yet to learn critical methods to evaluate what they hear and read. Their gullibility to liars keeps them angry about things that are just not true.
As for guns, the Second Amendment is not written in stone. Perhaps we do not need an armed population now. Just change the Constitution. That will keep lots of us happy. If you got the votes, go for it.

Posted by: GaryEMasters | January 12, 2011 6:31 AM | Report abuse

OckamsRazor (Eyore) wrote:

["Our obsession with weapons and malicious behavior is creating a whole culture of sociopathic killers.
Why do we want to be a nation of raving maniacs with no control over malicious behavior?"]

-----------------------

We're not creating sociopaths that become killers. I'm not sure that is possible. Krauthammer (an actual MD/Psychology), who is smarter than all of us on the topic, opined about the shooter...:

"This is not political behavior. These are the signs of a clinical thought disorder - ideas disconnected from each other, incoherent, delusional, detached from reality. These are all the hallmarks of a paranoid schizophrenic. And a dangerous one. A classmate found him so terrifyingly mentally disturbed that, she e-mailed friends and family, she expected to find his picture on TV after his perpetrating a mass murder. This was no idle speculation: In class "I sit by the door with my purse handy" so that she could get out fast when the shooting began."

So - the preliminary report is that this fellow had internal issues that have nothing to do with outside influences. Thus, your remarks are buffetted by false assumptions.

In regard to your story about taking a gun away from some idiot, I say 'bravo'. The response from Michigan law enforcement (a very liberal State) is disappointing. In my home town in Texas, our Sheriff would have pinned a medal on your chest and arrested the other guy on the spot -- we love our weapons but we're more pragmatic and do not like morons handling bullet launching devices.

Dave - I thought about your example of how we, as former military action guys, would have to put our rifles in an arms room when we were through at the range. I've thought about that myself from time to time - rifles and pistols can be pretty scary for folks like you and I that have been in combat. Why not have everyone in a community put their weapons in an arms room? The two 'more scary' things about doing that are:

1 - Do we really want 'government' keeping all of our weapons for us?
2 - Would it doing any good...weapon proliferation throughout the world is beyond control. The weapons would end up in the wrong hands and folks with a right to protect themselves would be ever helpless to do so.

Finally, here in the UK, you would be shocked at the number of crimes involving knives. The gangs of London are out of control and were a major contributing factor to the student riots in December. There are no checks to these armed thugs - it takes an act of Parliament (almost) to get a gun license here. No deterrent. The gangs run amok knowing that 99.9% of folks here are unarmed. I've had two friends robbed at knife point; and two of their kids too.

Posted by: pararanger22 | January 12, 2011 3:34 AM | Report abuse

Just another case that all too often falls through the cracks...and yes there are good gun laws and anyone can crack no matter what type of law is in place....unless the plan is to prohibit gun use...never gonna happen and should not happen. You can't blame the gun.
Posted by: bertzel

My Reply...
When I was in the Army and an expert rifleman; I was not allowed to have a weapon unless I was on guard duty or on the firing range. The weapons were locked up when they were not authorized to be used.
Why should any lunatic be able to buy a gun and ammunition no matter how deranged they happen to be?
I took a rifle away from a guy that told me he was going to shot his neighbor with the gun. I took the gun to the nearest police station and told a detective on duty what happened. He told me to give him his gun back and said that I could get in trouble for taking the gun.
You are right Bert. Guns do not kill people but bullets do kill people.
Our obsession with weapons and malicious behavior is creating a whole culture of sociopathic killers.
Why do we want to be a nation of raving maniacs with no control over malicious behavior?
Dave


Posted by: OckamsRazor | January 12, 2011 1:53 AM | Report abuse

Pdog

Actually it was a David Ehrenstein quote from a Los Angeles Times op ed column of March 19, 2007. with Sharpton dubbed in

Posted by: dalyplanet | January 12, 2011 1:37 AM | Report abuse

pdog

That song title was an Al Sharpton quote. No Joke You can not take Rush as a snippet

Plus it is a suggestion only, to give you understanding of a different thought process. Listen to Jason Lewis if Rush doesn't agree with your taste.

Posted by: dalyplanet | January 12, 2011 1:19 AM | Report abuse

Yes, dalyplanet, "Barack the Magic Negro" was very educational. Oh and it was just satire, right? *just shakes my head*

I've heard Rush enough times to know what he is.

Posted by: PrairieDog60 | January 12, 2011 1:04 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: dalyplanet | January 12, 2011
"pdog

You should actually listen to Rush for a week before you cast judgment on what he says."

Oh please. I used to listen to Rush way back in the day (1996-1999) and back then he was mildly amusing at times, but today I am older and wiser. I now realize that he is just contemptible as Jesse Helms. I rather wear a homeless person's underwear for a week, than listen to Rush's banal, inane, misogynistic, and racist remarks.

Posted by: bushidollar | January 12, 2011 12:57 AM | Report abuse

Ya know that shipping lane is opened with 3 nuclear Russian icebreakers 75,000 HP each capable of running through 6ft of ice at 10 Kt's and the transport is nuclear also. So really, a big enough hammer solves a lot of problems. The Norskies just built a transport that will also cut 6 ft on its own for 100 mil. As seen on Discovery. There has been a lot of engineering and money spent to cut 7000 miles off the normal shipping route. This is not regular ships traveling through the now balmy Arctic sea as some would have you believe. There is little or no Arctic ice they cannot penetrate summer or winter.

Posted by: dalyplanet | January 12, 2011 12:41 AM | Report abuse

~~I am not "An angry hostile delusional warped "robot" " in any way rendering your assesment of me logically false. I may be somewhat cynical but I am not a "fool".

I understand the left hold themselves up as an example of how to live properly so I am saddened by the vitriol and distortions they have produced regarding recent events. I am responsible and ask the same even if we are not in agreement.
Posted by: dalyplanet | January 11, 2011 9:41 PM~~

Wow...I'm impressed : )

Posted by: bertzel | January 12, 2011 12:27 AM | Report abuse

"A REQUEST for some restraint on violence-inflected language is painted as yet another outrage..."

Can't you stop lying for a second? Nobody made a REQUEST. Partisan liberal hacks like Toles made ACCUSATIONS.

Posted by: bobmoses | January 12, 2011 12:11 AM | Report abuse

Good lord. Can't the Post find a cartoonist who lives on this planet? What a joke.

Posted by: bobmoses | January 12, 2011 12:09 AM | Report abuse

pdog

You should actually listen to Rush for a week before you cast judgment on what he says. He absolutely is sending a message of 'you have nothing to fear but fear itself.' Nothing of take up arms or commit violence. He loves this country and worries about it like you. The guy is a master of satire so if you catch a snippet it may seem off the wall.

I tune into both NPR and FOX tho get perspective and balance. Jason Lewis is another excellent host of a libertarian leaning. You don't have to buy into the whole spiel but balance, and personal knowledge is good!

Posted by: dalyplanet | January 12, 2011 12:05 AM | Report abuse

Mr. Toles -
You mentioned climate change several times.
I work with Scientists and Engineers. I am a Biologist. They are all relatively highly educated people, that over the years have come to focus on their individual fields and do not study or read much outside their disciplines.

Especially the few Republican scientists.
I have become more and more amazed at the "closed minded" status on climate change of the Republican scientists. And other things. On climate change they are finally calming down somewhat when I point out shipping lanes in the Arctic are now open.
It was finally brought to my attention a few days ago why I am so misinformed. I was told that I HAD to listen to someone named "Glenn Beck" EVERY DAY, because that is the source of TRUTH.
So I looked Beck up and listened to him some (http://music.aol.com/artist/beck) but really didn't care for it.

Many Republicans KNOW the truth, regardless of whether it is right or wrong.

Posted by: gemniii | January 11, 2011 11:57 PM | Report abuse

The conservative arguement that keeps being repeated now, as demonstrated in George Will's recent column, is "this kind of crazy behavior goes on all the time, so quit blaming conservatives".

Yes, there are crazy people out there, and thanks to lax gun laws, nearly all of them can find their way to dangerous weapon, legally or illegally. I can't blame conservative talk radio for what this guy did, anymore than I can directly link a particular intense hurricane to global warming. But to say that global warming will cause more intense hurricanes is still true. Warmer seas and air temps lead to stronger storms.

So, although this particular nut with a gun may or may not be a product of hate-filled talk radio/Fox News/etc, the level of hate-filled speech and not-so-subliminal references to guns and violence by these so called "commentators" WILL lead to more violence toward politicians. It already had before this shooting. Remember, Gabby Gifford's door was smashed at her office by someone who disagreed with her politics. Is that violence? I'd say so. Has this been happening a lot more lately? I'd say so...black congressmen spit on, bullets fired at congressional offices, etc. And what side of the political spectrum does this always seem to be coming from? I'm not making this stuff up folks! This is real, and it's happening, and it's happening way too much.

Our country is in peril in many ways. Our economy is not doing so well, we're still bogged down in two wars given us by the last president, and the gap between rich and poor is growing more and more. So what do we get on the radio? Not "We have nothing to fear but fear itself." Nope...nothing quite that profound. Instead we get loud-mouthed college dropouts telling us how treasonous a member of congress is because they voted for the health care bill, and that "second amendment remedies" are needed.

Mentally unstable, or just frustrated and angry, hearing a continuous stream of this hate-filled, violence-promoting garbage makes some think it's okay to commit violence. Let's stop arguing over whether or not this nut was inspired by hate learned from the radio or TV, and simply recognize that there's NO REASON that anyone should be teaching anyone how to hate via radio or TV. We should know better. As my mom used to say, "You ought to be ashamed of yourself."

Somehow, some part of me still wants to have faith in people being naturally compassionate creatures. Listening to people regurgatate the hate-filled rants they hear on the radio or on Fox, it's harder and harder to hold onto that belief.

Posted by: PrairieDog60 | January 11, 2011 11:36 PM | Report abuse

lquarton

I think you really misinterpreted jhnnywalkr's post.

By your post you seem to be a member of "us vs THE OTHERS" camp so by applying logic to you argument that would make you STUPID.

Posted by: dalyplanet | January 11, 2011 11:19 PM | Report abuse

Mr Toles

Whats up with the passive\aggressive blog scribbles\cartoon thing?

Cartoon One seen as 'Conservatives\Beck all but pull trigger in horrible murder'.

Cartoon Two 'Lock up all the guns'.

Blog scribbles 'Cant we all tone it down esp you nasty rotten conservative disagreeables that do not think like ME'!!

You don't think that sort of thing may stir up the pot a little (may = will as used in IPCC summery AR4)

Nothing like a poke in the eye to start a fight. Or two. But there is NO bias in mainstream media No Sir we're just defending ourselves from that nasty FOX,

But you ARE the mainstream media out poking eyes!!!

So maybe just maybe you think you and some of your fellow syndicated scribes might be a tiny bit complicit in this 'very cynical game' that's going on?

Posted by: dalyplanet | January 11, 2011 10:50 PM | Report abuse

"A favored tactic here is arguing with something I didn't actually say."

So, you are claiming you have said nothing at all now? Why Just yesterday you had a blog entry! And today too in fact! To think we're expected to fall for these sorts of liberal lies is preposterous.

Posted by: jhnnywalkr | January 11, 2011 5:38 PM | Report abuse
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That post illustrates the reason why we can never stop the kind of violence that occurred in Tucson last weekend:
YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID, and stupid people are scared people. They can't help it; they lack the capacity to think through and conquer their fear with rational thought.


When did America become a country so full of scared and ignorant people?
When did the DUH quotient get to the point where so many can only "think", for lack of a better word, in terms of "us vs THE OTHERS"?

What happened to America the brave and strong, chock full of can-do citizens, always up for the challenge?


When did America become so full of fear, full of scared little sheep?


Buy all the gold you can, stock up the bunker with all the food you can fit, be sure to take your Glen Beck books into the bunker; the real Americans, the strong, the smart, the patriots with the courage to move this country forward, beyond partisanship, beyond propaganda, will knock on your bunker door when it's safe for you to crawl out from your cave of fear.

Posted by: lquarton | January 11, 2011 10:22 PM | Report abuse

Dear Tom,
In my country, Australia, we have strict gun control measures, but this was not achieved without a massive resistance from the Australian Gun Lobby. Our Prime Minister Howard had the fortitude to ignore these Red Necks. Howard stayed in power for eleven years, he was very popular.
Obama should try the Howard tactic. However difficult.
Love your work.

Posted by: julianimmo | January 11, 2011 10:02 PM | Report abuse

Dear Tom,
In my country, Australia, we have strict gun control measures, but this was not achieved without a massive resistance from the Australian Gun Lobby. Our Prime Minister Howard had the fortitude to ignore these Red Necks. Howard stayed in power for eleven years, he was very popular.
Obama should try the Howard tactic. However difficult.
Love your work.

Posted by: julianimmo | January 11, 2011 10:00 PM | Report abuse

"- In the US, the only truly serious political discussion revolves around elections. We just had that serious discussion and the 'unserious' GOP crushed the Democrats by a historically significant margin"

No, actually that was mostly not serious discussion. That what what is known as "gloating."

Posted by: jhnnywalkr | January 11, 2011 9:58 PM | Report abuse

Excerpts from the Liberal Constitution.....Congress shall make no law abridging the Freedom of Speech except where any citizen opposes what liberal politicians or the liberal media says, the display of a cross and or U.S. Flag will be considered incendiary and Democrats will be the only political party allowed to use crosshairs in political campaign material as all parties have used in the past.

Posted by: jornolibist | January 11, 2011 9:49 PM | Report abuse

It's almost like your communicating with the same angry delusional hardcore conservative all of the time, but you know for a fact, that it is a different angry delusional hard core conservative that you are trying to communicate with than the one that you were communicating with two days ago or an hour ago, and yet, they all sound the same and they are all hostile and angry.

An angry hostile delusional warped "robot" comes to mind.

Posted by: lcarter0311 |

Why is it so many of you resort to name calling as the basis of your argument to those who disagree even slightly with your position. I am saddened that a tragic event would be turned to political circus, disappointed that Toles would throw fuel to the fire, and appalled that so many who claim never to listen to FOX are so certain that it's contribution to Americas political discourse is the causal to this recent horrible act.

I am not liberal or progressive though I am sure my values are the same or similar to yours, but I may disagree to the method. I am tired of lies and distortions perpetrated by both sides of the political spectrum. I am sick of the media editorializing when they should be reporting. The 24 hour news cycle leaves me numb.

I am not a robot but a seeker of truth and harmony. I will not be rolled by those who repeat some opinion endlessly quoting group think as truth. I look for civil discourse to gain understanding. I learn from others different opinions and facts.

I request an end to name calling and baiting on this blog as it was once civil. I believe polarizing discourse will not resolve the pressing issues of today. I believe in compromise not confrontation.

I am not "An angry hostile delusional warped "robot" " in any way rendering your assesment of me logically false. I may be somewhat cynical but I am not a "fool".

I understand the left hold themselves up as an example of how to live properly so I am saddened by the vitriol and distortions they have produced regarding recent events. I am responsible and ask the same even if we are not in agreement.

Posted by: dalyplanet | January 11, 2011 9:41 PM | Report abuse

Oh and th ecatalyst is quite fitting as well...serenade is now done...

~Perhaps the sheriff could have done his job~~~ I understood that the 'campus police' were aware of the man's behavior as well as student's, neighbors, etc.

Just another case that all too often falls through the cracks...and yes there are good gun laws and anyone can crack no matter what type of law is in place....unless the plan is to prohibit gun use...never gonna happen and should not happen. You can't blame the gun.

Posted by: bertzel | January 11, 2011 9:20 PM | Report abuse

The sheriff in Tucson mentioned that the perpetrator had made death threats. A proper psych eval would have rendered the young man unfit for gun possession, even by Arizona laws such as they are.

Perhaps the sheriff could have done his job and requested a psychiatric evaluation to see if the young man was a threat to himself or others. That is what the existing law is for before we start wailing for new laws that have nothing to do with the situation at hand.

Can we get flaming liberals such as Mr. Toles to stick to the point so that first episode schizophrenics can be diagnosed and treated?

Mr. Toles is one more bad student of the Virginia Tech shootings.

Posted by: ahengst | January 11, 2011 9:04 PM | Report abuse

course...Waiting for the End is much better.

Posted by: bertzel | January 11, 2011 8:43 PM | Report abuse

speaking of songs Robot by Linkin Park is a good one...

Posted by: bertzel | January 11, 2011 8:33 PM | Report abuse

Mr. Toles,

You have confirmed and validated everything that many of us have been saying and writing about on these articles concerning the issue with these "hardcore" conservatives for over two years now.

What's interesting about it all... is that it does not matter if they are young, old, women, or men. They all seem to possess the same hostile angry and mean mindset and attitude.

It's almost like your communicating with the same angry delusional hardcore conservative all of the time, but you know for a fact, that it is a different angry delusional hard core conservative that you are trying to communicate with than the one that you were communicating with two days ago or an hour ago, and yet, they all sound the same and they are all hostile and angry.

An angry hostile delusional warped "robot" comes to mind.

Weird isn't it?

Good article, Mr. Toles

Posted by: lcarter0311 | January 11, 2011 8:08 PM | Report abuse

pr22 - there is a disney song in your head because you live in never-never-land. Your opinions are so far to the right you must think Generalissimo Francisco Franco was a Marxist.

now, please, attack me for being a liberal, socialist, obama loving idiot or whatever other tired, unsubstantiated, juvenile insult springs forth from what passes for your mind.


Posted by: pete1013 | January 11, 2011 7:57 PM | Report abuse

To Tom Toles...

My read on the situation.
If we had Statesman instead of politicians; malicious politics would not be practiced. It is up to our elected officials to assure that malicious politics are not acceptable. What happened to congressional ethics enforcement?
Depending on false statements and verbal abuse to win an election is unacceptable behavior.
If we are going to have safe and sane elections; it is going to be necessary to curb wild accusations.
The news media has been so intent on selling stories that they use no civil judgment in the editorials.
Constructive comments are drowned out by the thunder of hate mongering exaggeration. The truth and meaningful dialog is lost in the furor.
Our nation is permeated with violent communications and entertainment.
We need sane and meaningful solutions to problems not malicious conflict.
Dave

Posted by: OckamsRazor | January 11, 2011 7:55 PM | Report abuse

See David Brooks http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/opinion/11brooks.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
To wit: 1% of the population is seriously mentally ill; 1% of the mentally ill have a propensity toward violence (maybe 40,000 individuals); and such individuals commit half of rampage murders.

States like Arizona rank at the bottom in terms of caring for the mentally ill and, along with most of our country, have not exerted much effort toward "keeping an eye on such persons" let alone providing them with medical treatment. Combine that with easy access to assault-type weapons and, well, what does anyone expect?

Posted by: e30m42 | January 11, 2011 7:21 PM | Report abuse

Conservatives know very well the power and values of words. FOX News and the RNC pays consultants millions each year to carefully wordsmith their message, and then to disseminate that message to all their media outlets.

To now assert that those words didn't really mean what we thought they meant, is just ... well ... what kind of fools do they take us for, anyway?

Posted by: fostersm1 | January 11, 2011 7:13 PM | Report abuse

Mr. Toles, many of your "fans" do not like it when you hold up a mirror in front of them. The ugliness is just too much.

Posted by: JCD1978

--------------------

You and Toles should stop looking in the mirror then. It'll be okay - even the ugly ducklings find their true love some day...

(why is there a Disney song ringing in my head...?)

Posted by: pararanger22 | January 11, 2011 6:50 PM | Report abuse

Mr. Toles, many of your "fans" do not like it when you hold up a mirror in front of them. The ugliness is just too much.

Posted by: JCD1978 | January 11, 2011 6:23 PM | Report abuse

It appears the Conservatives are getting under Mr. Toles' skin. My response:

1 - In reference to Tole's comment 'conservatives wish to portray themselves as unserious in the realm of American political discussion.'
- In the US, the only truly serious political discussion revolves around elections. We just had that serious discussion and the 'unserious' GOP crushed the Democrats by a historically significant margin, a blood-curdling fact the WP and Toles wish us all to forget - and quickly.

2 - Toles writes 'Their [Conservatives] duly self-appointed representatives in the comments section here are able footsoldiers in the cause.'
- Apparently, Toles only wants folks on his blog that agree with his point of view.
- Only those who are obsequious (for the benefit of PD60 & dingaling, this means your lips are super-glued to Toles' posterior) with brother Toles are welcome.

3 - Toles writes 'Now, however, the mere suggestion that in light of horrible shooting deaths and injuries, somebody might want to rethink the ramifications of their choice of words and images is depicted as some manner of totalitarian jackboot.'
- Yeah, we do have a problem with the fact that within a very short time after the shooting, the MSM shamelessly attributed the shooting to right wing extremists.
- Nothing/zero/nada/zilch/ about the shooter and why he shot our Congresswoman, thus far, had anything to do with Conservative rhetoric. Thus, Toles and the Liberal diaspora, predictably continue to try and tie the two together.

Predictably (on my part), I don't agree with Toles about much. But this is the first time he has acted like a big baby - what a tenderfoot he's turned out to be today.

Posted by: pararanger22 | January 11, 2011 6:20 PM | Report abuse

Wow! Tom, I've got to hand it to you. I'm stunned that you actually wrote this courageous forthright accurate commentary. I am very impressed!

I have not seen anyone else in the mainstream media engage in this level "of call it like it is."

Those that assert that vitriolic rhetoric has little to do with actual violence are in serious denial.

Politicians spend countless sums of money and hours honing their message in order to win votes and spur people to action. They are experts at leading different segments of the population to believe different things by the same message. They know full well the vitriolic rhetoric can spur some mentally challenged individual to kill. But too many do it anyway.

They also know full well the ubiquitous existence of guns designed to kill people is wrong. But because too many politicians have not had the courage to talk straight about guns, they have convinced too many of their base that having guns designed to kill people makes our society safe.

~ richard allbritton, Miami, http://rallbritton.blogspot.com

Posted by: rigel1 | January 11, 2011 5:53 PM | Report abuse

"A favored tactic here is arguing with something I didn't actually say."

So, you are claiming you have said nothing at all now? Why Just yesterday you had a blog entry! And today too in fact! To think we're expected to fall for these sorts of liberal lies is preposterous.

Posted by: jhnnywalkr | January 11, 2011 5:38 PM | Report abuse

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