As always, solid blogging Ivan. Good to see Arenas' knee is fine after the MRI and that there is no damage. Appears to be just wear and tear post surgery. Here's a to Wiz win tomorrow night.

I hear you, Ivan, but the NBA scout probably did not attend the players' only meeting prior to the game.

In my view, AJ and CB should continue to assert themselves in a leadership role, at least to ensure some consistency in intensity. Usually, it's the coach's responsibility to keep the flame going and the players motivated, but I don't see EJ assuming that role.

Let's see where we are at the All-star break. Whatever the situation may be, they do need to start planning now for an injury to one of the Big 3 at some point in the season.

Keep plugging.

Great post...thanks as always Ivan.

Thing is, most reasonable fans, repeat REASONABLE....are a) giving Eddie some slack for the reasons that you have mentioned and b) understand that you, among others, are not some Eddie Jordan defending team mouth-piece. Do people really think that the Post would stand for that? Nope.

As for the Wizards, that's actually pretty encouraging that they seem to like Eddie and want to play hard for him. I wrote in my blog that the team has shown glimpses of quitting on Eddie, but I hope that I'm wrong. Because if they quit on Eddie, they are essentially quitting on themselves.

Let's just hope that they build on this and play like they need their first win of the season every game.

Tomorrow.

I still wonder if one reason for the Wiz's slow start is their focus on defense since preseason began. I think this has made their offense slow to come around, although no one else seems to be saying this.

I also wonder if this focus on defense is really EJ's idea or is being forced from above.

In any event, I think the Wiz being able to play decent to good defense along their usual offensive prowess will only benefit them in the long run and I hope they keep working on it.

I still wonder if one reason for the Wiz's slow start is their focus on defense since preseason began. I think this has made their offense slow to come around, although no one else seems to be saying this.

I also wonder if this focus on defense is really EJ's idea or is being forced from above.

In any event, I think the Wiz being able to play decent to good defense along their usual offensive prowess will only benefit them in the long run and I hope they keep working on it.

If the players are holding players only meetings then that's a good thing and the coach is doing his job with this aspect of things. When players show leadership coaches love it and it is the best of all worlds. By the way, Bobby Cox, Larry Brown, Tony Dungy, etc. all had teams that called players only meeting during playoff and/or championship runs.

Great post...thanks as always Ivan.

Thing is, most reasonable fans, repeat REASONABLE....are a) giving Eddie some slack for the reasons that you have mentioned and b) understand that you, among others, are not some Eddie Jordan defending team mouth-piece. Do people really think that the Post would stand for that? Nope.

As for the Wizards, that's actually pretty encouraging that they seem to like Eddie and want to play hard for him. I wrote in my blog ...
_________
Still selling crazy in an effort to have us visit you blog, hee, hee.

Ivan,

Keep up the great work....I enjoy the amount of passion and energy you put into this job.

Crazy like a fox!

But really, just trying to tell it like it is...you know, the truth about it.

That's my word, word.

Nice entry by Ivan.

But please do not use this comments space to peddle your crappy blog.

Hey Ivan, good luck with that new axe, and thanks for the excellent (as usual) reporting. ESPN.com has some self-styled knee expert insinuating that Gil's knee is really messed up, so it's great to hear from you that his MRI turned out okay.

I wish everybody would lay off EJ. He's done a much better job than anybody else who's coached for this franchise in the past couple of decades.

Why would the players have a beef with Eddie? He runs the lightest practices in the league. Everyone gets at least 15 shots up per game and has the green light to chuck a three whenever they feel like it. He demands little effort on defense. If you're a player what's not to like?

You're telling me the players are plotting to get rid of Eddie so some drill seargent like Rick Carlisle or Larry Brown could come here and be on their case everyday?

So I don't know how this whole rumour about how the players quit on Eddie started, good thing this scout shot down the rumour once and for all as being 100% false.

I've been in the military the last five years and just returned home so I'm still getting to know my local sports reporters. As far as I can tell, Ivan, from seeing you on Washington Post Live and reading your blogs and articles, you do an outstanding job and have a firm grasp and understanding of whats going on in DC sports. You're absolutely right about Eddie. People tend to forget where this team was before Eddie. He has brought it back to prominence and for that he deserves our loyalty and patience.

good job champ. i f*cks with ur writing and the fact that u keep it real to an extent. eddie jordan born and raised in southeast, dc like me so ill always have love for him. but throw in the fact that he has taken us farther than we have been in years and he deals with gilbert's crazy personality....sounds like we got the best coach we need already....

wiz will be fine we gotta stop putting so much pressure on them. its because the redskins somesh*t this year tho, if we loose to Dallas sunday a lot of pressure going be on the wiz.

"I still wonder if one reason for the Wiz's slow start is their focus on defense since preseason began. I think this has made their offense slow to come around, although no one else seems to be saying this."

Tim, I said it and got flamed. You can't pratice one aspect of a game and expect to be good at the other just because you were good last year. Anybody think the Cavs or Pistons or Spurs spent 80% of their time this offseason on offense because their defense was already good? Probably not. Ivan has said that GA's dribbling was off. It's probably not because of the knee because you can dribble in place. I think it's because offense hasn't been practiced much. Even GA said as much and had to ask EJ to get some offense work in.

I don't think anyone ever thought that the players quit on EJ. I don't even recall any of us here on this blog speculating that. We're just skeptical of his rotations and insistence on 'small-ball' even though it doesn't seem to work often. More specifically, the AJ/Songaila combo is defenseless. They should never be in the game together unless it's the closing seconds of a blowout and Blatche, McGuire, Haywood, Georghe, Jim McIlvaine, Wes and Charles 'Secret Weapon' Jones have all fouled out. It just doesn't work.

What is Eddie Jordan's head coaching record in the NBA? Is he a winner or a loser? It is what it is. He has 3 All Stars and a bench full of solid players. That team will never be much above .500 (if at all) Very, very nice guy. But be realistic people, the numbers do not lie.

Ivan,

First of all: if your bosses let you, take my advice and get a dual core MacBook Pro rather than a PC laptop. You won't regret it (and I'm not a PC-hater at all; I've used both, quite extensively, for many years. Macs are just better).

I think Eddie's a lousy coach, and the improved teams and playoff runs the last few years are more Ernie's work than Eddie's, IMO. They simply have a lot more talent than they've had previously.

That being said, it appears that Eddie might be seeing the light, if just a bit. Examples: more tallball in the last game (a win, not coincidentally), and some offensive/defensive substitutions at the end of games. Now, if he starts giving his starters 5 or so fewer minutes per game and developing his bench some, they'll be on the right track.

I still think the Wiz need more of a drill-sergeant coach, someone who will get his players to play hard all the time, and to pay attention to defense. I think they'd be better off. But if Eddie evolves, we'll at least have a chance. Again, Mark, that doesn't mean they should become a defensive-oriented team; but right now, they don't even really try for the most part.

1) The idea that EJ is succeeding or was prior to last season's injuries is absurd. The team won on pure talent -- Boston makes it clear that if you have 3 stars in this league you are going to win. This is not completely analogous because AJ is not KG by a long shot. However, the Wiz do not move the ball at all (so consequently they are completely dependent on streak shooting and someone getting hot), they play absolutely horrible D and while losing your best player(s) is devastating good/great coaches find a way for their team to hunker down and play .500 or near it through tougher D and ball movement -- things as noted the wiz never, ever do.

2) Either fire him now, salvage the season, show gilbert a committment to winning or he will be gone in the offseason. Wait til the break and you might as well send him packing -- the team will be well under .500, Gill will be leaving, no respectable coach will want the job (though without Gil and AJ there is hell of a lot of cap room on the horizon)

3) From what I read y'all do an excellent job reporting on the wiz -- however, the team simply underachieves and shows no improvement over three years in any facet of their game and on that level I do think you give EJ a pass -- I assume if you pound the guy it will be difficult to do your job, basketball ain't football not 53 players and 50 coaches to hide behind.

Ivan, great job blogging.

If EJ leaves or is fired, whom do we replace him with? Wes Unseld? Gar Heard? Kevin Loughery? Noooo. The grass is not always greener on the other side.

Big game tonight to string together a couple of wins. Nice stat on the next seven opponents for the wiz.

I think for the time being Caron is key player on team. Looks like Gil may be realizing that he has to play back into form, and so won't shoot us out of games. AJ is steady for the most part. We need Caron to spark the team - both offensively and defensively.

BTW - anyone notice that the Sports Guy is TOTALLY dogging the Wiz - calling on them to win 29 games? I am more than capable of being down on the Wiz and I know that a lot of the folks who post here are, but I have to say that when I see an article from a national guy (whose opinion is usually pretty good), it pisses me off that we get no respect. Barring injuries and notwithstanding the slow start, I still think we win 45 games.

Ivan, I appreciate your sense of perspective. You're right, it's not panic time.

At the same time, the slow start is not just something we should gloss over. These games count. They'll matter if and when the team makes the playoffs in terms of seeding, match-ups and home court advantage.

It's not just that the team has a bad record right now: they haven't even looked competitive most nights. Why do the Wizards have to start slower than everyone else? It's not like the starting lineup is any different. Not the end of the world, but it bothers me.

That being said, it appears that Eddie might be seeing the light, if just a bit. Examples: more tallball in the last game (a win, not coincidentally), and some offensive/defensive substitutions at the end of games. Now, if he starts giving his starters 5 or so fewer minutes per game and developing his bench some, they'll be on the right track.

Posted by: Keithinator | November 14, 2007 08:54 AM

Keithinator - I also hope he keeps the tall-ball going and the defense for offense substitutions at the end of the game going. I have been saying for the longest I want EJ to stay here as coach, but I did not want him to stay here if he was not willing to change his ways in his rotational calls and his end of game player substitions (i.e. Haywood and AB).

You can see how great of a coach he can be if he just modified his rotational calls and put in better combination packages during games, and not running the big three into the ground (trusting his bench more).

Also not running AJ and Songalia (small-ball) at the same time is what really got me so fired up with him in the first place. To add injury to insult, EJ would have that lineup in at the end of games and then he would be wondering why he lost the game. Can somebody please say Duhhhhhhh????

AB and Haywood each need 35 minutes a game, with 15 minutes of that being on the floor together. DMac still needs "special times" to enter the game to lock down the hot player on the other team. How can he mess up playing defense. He is not the point guard, so you are not asking him to run your offense?

Memo to Eddie for tonight's game. Have Stevenson or DMac get in Tinsley's chest the minute he crosses the halfcourt line. Secondily, have AB "spy" Granger wherever he goes. When he gets his feet set, the dude is deadly. He can not shoot on the move. If needed slide DMac over to Dunelevy and have Stevenson check Tinsley and AB on Granger if any of them get hot.

I have a hard time buying the argument that the focus on defense has hurt the offense, because I just don't see that much focus on defense. Gil and AJ still don't break a sweat on that end of the court. Brendan is playing stellar defense but if anything his offense has improved right alongside the defensive intensity. Caron's back where he left off last year on both ends. And who said the Wiz ignored their offensive sets in the pre-season?

I agree with Keith about the tall ball. I've liked that frontcourt line-up since Eddie flashed it (once) in the pre-season (albeit using the wrong backcourt with AD and Gil). Going tall down low and sliding Caron over to the 2 presents a lot of mismatch problems for opponents and gives AB some valuable time. Let's see some more of that, and let's never again see AJ and Darius at the 4 and 5 together unless the team is otherwise depleted by injuries.

Bullets Fever #1, I doubt EJ will use McGuire much at all this year. Based on what I've seen, McGuire isnt that good in man D. He's much better off the ball as a help defender/shotblocker. Too bad he's not 6'9 or 6'10. He'd be beastly.
Keithinator, I guess part of the reason I keep calling for more offense is frustration at seeing the guys fail at D. How many open baseline 3's do we need to see before we just give up and try to outscore people? I know Granger is going to jack up at least 6 or 7 threes tonight and more than a few will be from the baseline.
Also, even though GA had an MRI and all is well so far, I hope his minutes are limited to 35-38. We're courting disaster.

When Thibodeau was hired it was noted that he would be lead assistant. When Eddie's guys got their extensions it was announced that O'Koren would be Associate Head Coach. Between that snafu and the completely awkward situation of having more time on his deal than almost every other coach I understood why Thibodeaux would walk. That won't keep Ernie form hiring him as HC should a move be made after this season.

Joe, welcome home and thanks for your service.

I'm not sure the Wizard's bench is full of solid players, and they have more like 2.5 all stars.

Sad start to the season so far, with keeping the same starters together and playing them max (almost) minutes, I think we would all have hoped for a much better start. Let's see something tonight.

The numbers don't lie, but remember Eddie finished out the season in Sacramento when the coach had already been fired and didn't have much of a team.

First year here before Jamison came on board was pretty sad also. Last three years have been .500 0r slightly above.So it would appear he's a fairly average NBA coach based on the last three years.

Some of the guys around that people tout as being big time coaches don't have much better than a .500 record for their careers.

I'd agree with Mark, most of us that have critized him have pointed out strategy and rotation questions. And some obvious pairings that just don't work like the Jamison/Songalia mix on defense.

The NBA is what it is, alot of coaches don't think they're on solid enough ground to actually coach. Many are afraid to pull players for offensive/defensive switches for fear of hurting players feelings.

Many times it's easier to "cut the coach" then get rid of a player with a multi-year deal that has big cap ramifications.

Good to see that Eddie coached a little in the Atlanta game. The point I made a couple of days ago was that if he's coaching scared, then he's already done.

I think the players have given him their vote of confidence, other than the Denver game, it doesn't appear they've quit on him so far.

But he does need to figure out which games to attack as must wins and which nights he should really make an attempt to pace his starters. Better planning and he should be at .500 or better right now.

Arenas and Eddie need to learn to pace his efforts from time to time with the knee. Back to backs are going to be tough for awhile, the thing will continue to tighten up and feel funny the next day after a game.

But alot of it will be mental, it's a slow process and it will take awhile for Gil to be 100%. In the neantime the team can learn to become better balanced at both ends.

Man, what a bunch of whoa is me fans! It is only the 5th or 6th game out of 82! Give me a break and give my Wiz some time. And while you are at it, lay off of EJ. The players love playing for him and unless you have actually watched the practice sessions, no one can say for sure what goes in and how much they practice. As for the players only meeting, I am glad they called it and had hoped they would. For when it all boils down to it, the coaches can teach it but only the PLAYERS can carry it out. GO WIZ!!! I will be watching tonight!

I think the "quitter" rumor lies at the feet of Jeff Van Gundy, who uttered those words on ESPN toward the end of the third quarter last Friday against Denver.

Charles Jones, I agree with you about the lack of respect. But it seems like that's the main thing that fires this team up. That's why I hope the national media keep the Wizards out of the spotlight and they can squirrel away a few wins while feeling that lack of respect.

I think EJ will work the new/younger guys in as the top eight get back in sync. Hope that doesn't take too long to happen.

What does it really say about a team that has to hold a "players only" meeting 5 games into the season? Where did the focus go? Why was this needed?

I thought the team was supposed to come back fired up, especially after last season's valiant effort in the playoffs, and their dedication to defense in the offseason.

And that the minutes get more evenly distributed so Arenas/Jamison/Butler don't burn out or get hurt.

In case anyone cares, Bill Simmons changed his prediction from 39 wins to 29 wins for the Wiz this season. He cites GA's selfishness and refusal to pass as reasons. He insists that GA just wants to score 35.
I think this dude and a lot of other people just don't get GA. I'm not GA's therapist or anything but it seems to me he scores because he thinks it'll help the team win. I happen to agree with him. Also, in regard to my preference for offense, I think that the insertion of BTH into the starting lineup for good dramatically upgrades our defense. No one was afraid of Etan or Booth or Ruffin. No wholesale changes should be necessary if you have a stopper in the middle. Maybe a change in defenses...force guys into the middle where the help is. Even our below average defenders can at least run out to a wing and force a guy to drive.

We need another double-double from Beast Hay.* Keep getting the ball inside to the Woodman, lads!!!

(*"Beast Hay" is meant a little facetiously, at least for now.)

Ivan - Did you consult your laptop or its family before writing this blog entry??? Your "techies" didn't give you a timetable, but did you go to the source? Here you are writing publicly about its demise WITHOUT FIRST HAND CONFIRMATION!

It appeared you guys had a good relationship, but then you exposed your pal to injury and jumped ship when something better came along. No loyalty. At all. I think a public apology is in order. I expect a conciliatory blog post on this by the end of the day.

Gil, Caron, Dray, Antawn, Brendan. Lets do work with some tall ball. I like this here by The FEVER

"Memo to Eddie for tonight's game. Have Stevenson or DMac get in Tinsley's chest the minute he crosses the halfcourt line. Secondily, have AB "spy" Granger wherever he goes. When he gets his feet set, the dude is deadly. He can not shoot on the move. If needed slide DMac over to Dunelevy and have Stevenson check Tinsley and AB on Granger if any of them get hot.

Posted by: Bullets Fever #1 | November 14, 2007 09:39 AM "
____________________________________

I like the idea of Stevenson shutting down Tinsley. I also really like the idea of having Blatche cover Granger. Eddie needs to just tell Blatche to stay out on the perimeter and deny him the ball because he can not score of the dribble. Lets do work tonight fellas.

"Even our below average defenders can at least run out to a wing and force a guy to drive."

Which is not necessarily a great strategy for a team that hasn't shown the slightest propensity for stopping penetration to the rim.

guaranteed win tonight. i already lost my house in a bet this season so I'm betting nothing. still, Wiz win by 12.

Ivan:
I was the one who questioned why you didn't report more thoroughly on Thibodeau's departure, so I appreciate the information in this post. It still leaves a lot of unanswered questions, but as you indicated, if you received a lot of conflicting information, you either can report that you heard X, but also heard Y, or you can just not report either X or Y. I would prefer hearing X and Y, but that might not be what a professional journalist would or should do.

If I could ask one question about this situation, it would be this: When you asked Eddie Jordan about Thibodeau's departure, he said that he had spoken to Thibodeau one night, and "we came to certain agreements, and the next morning he decided to leave." What I would love to know is what those "certain agreements" were about.

I also believe that you defend or refuse to criticize Eddie Jordan. When I see a criticism of Jordan in an article with your name on it, I will change my opinion. In fact, when the Wizards jump out to an 0-5 record and I see an article with your name on it that doesn't put the entire blame for that horrible start on the players and their missed shots ("What is Eddie to do?"), then I might change my opinion too. Even if he's a great coach, he's not flawless. I just want to read about this team, warts and all, without a filter.

"What is Eddie Jordan's head coaching record in the NBA? Is he a winner or a loser? It is what it is. He has 3 All Stars and a bench full of solid players. That team will never be much above .500 (if at all) Very, very nice guy. But be realistic people, the numbers do not lie.

But they also don't tell the whole truth.

He has 3 all-stars who missed a total of about 50 games last season. As for the bench ... are you kidding? The previous two years he had a bench full of has-beens, wannabes, and never weres. Calvin Booth? Michael Ruffin? Donnell Taylor? A perennially injured Jarvis Hayes? Songaila missed 2/3 of the season injured and was at about 60 or 70% when he came back. This season he's got a bench with some potential and raw talent that's probably a couple of years (at least) from really paying off. People keep riding him about giving the big 3 too much run, but the simple truth is, that's the only way for them to win games right now.

Mark, Are you going double or nothing trying to win the house back?

Careful, losing big bets on Pro Basketball can leave you foul and bitter!

Which is not necessarily a great strategy for a team that hasn't shown the slightest propensity for stopping penetration to the rim.

That's true, but it appears to me they're getting killed more often by leaving open shooters on the perimeter than by penetration to the hoop. And I think it's because teams know the Wiz won't close out on shooters, so they'll get a bunch of open shots. The sad fact is, the Wiz can do neither very well.

Haywood and Blatche can both protect the rim, though. The problem too often last year (and some in the beginning of this year) is that Haywood wasn't getting crunch-time minutes, because of Eddie's infatuation with smallball. That's always when he gets in trouble. No rebounders, no defensive force in the game when it counts.

Re: the bench -- I agree that there wasn't much last year. But there may be, and I believe there is, a lot more material to work with this year. However, if Eddie doesn't get them meaningful minutes, how will they ever develop? Practice can only do so much, and we all know guys who look great in practice/preseason who can't hack it in a real game. But Eddie needs to find out which guys can, and which ones can't.

Great post Ivan - that sucks about your laptop though.

Anyway, I hope Atlanta was the start of a long Wizards winning streak.....

I agree, K. I see guys getting open shots as being our weakness. Once guys get in the middle, they feel the dbl coming and kick it out. How about letting them go and get their shot blocked a couple times? It's almost like coaches are afraid to try something different. I'm still amazed that it took coaches 3 or 4 years to realize that Shaq no longer requires a dbl team. If ppl had played him straight up a few years back, they would not have won a title.
Guard the 3 and hope BTH can protect the rim. (Let's fantasize about 2009 when Haywood, Blatche and McGuire are all starting with GA and Caron at the 1 and 2. We're gonna have a block party).
BTW, I know I typed this months ago but there's a reason Nelson had AJ coming off the bench in Dallas. With the aforementioned starters and AJ and Nick Young getting 30 minutes gunning off the bench, we'd be formidable defensively.

GM, I'm not betting the house again. Maybe the ride this time.

On another note, I'm such a Wiz homer that I rejoice in seeing guys struggle after they leave us. After years of watching ex wiz players prosper elsewhere, am I the only one who giggles like a schoolgirl at Jared Jeffries and Larry Hughes's box scores? I'm hating for life.

Simmons' Wizards section was pure garbage. He says Arenas is selfish because he doesn't think he'd like playing with him. Yeah, that's a great way to support your point.

Note to Bill: You are a writer, not an NBA basketball player.

(I'm still mad about this article, pardon me for the double-post.)

"True point guards such as Steve Nash and Chris Paul understand instinctively how to sacrifice their own scoring to get everyone else involved, then look for their own offense only if their teams need it. Gilbert seems to get this sometimes; other times, he just says "screw it" and goes for himself. And that doesn't work if you're trying to win a title. We have 51 seasons of evidence to back this up."

When was the last time a "true point guard" won a championship? Tony Parker doesn't count.

You'd have to go all the way back to Magic and Isiah to find one. Before that, Cousy. If you want to go into a gray area, you could include Avery Johnson and Maurice Cheeks.

I agree that Gilbert should be more of a distributor, but I love how Simmons mentions Chris Paul and Steve Nash when neither has won any titles.

"Haywood and Blatche can both protect the rim, though. "

Except it's not 1994 anymore, when big men were allowed to camp out in the lane and wait for guards to come running at them. Part of what is needed to make that strategy work now is the ability of the perimeter defenders to stay in front of the drivers well and long enough to slow them down and give the shot blocker time to rotate over. The Wiz's perimeter "defenders" haven't shown any particular skill in that area.

Basically the Wiz have shown themselves to stink at both defending the three point line and stopping penetration. This has been true for years now. Because of their defensive deficiencies, putting more effort into locking down one is probably going to leave the other even more open. It's a pick your poison scenario and which poison they chose should be dictated by the tendencies of the opponent. But, as this team is currently constructed, it's pretty unlikely they'll ever be proficient in stopping either one.

I know this is just the 7th game of the season but I believe that the next 10 games will be crucial. If they win only 1-3 games then the 29 wins is a possibility and goodbye EJ, GA and JA. If they get a win on the majority then I still think we can sneak in the playoffs as the 7th or 8th seed.

"When was the last time a "true point guard" won a championship? Tony Parker doesn't count.

You'd have to go all the way back to Magic and Isiah to find one. Before that, Cousy. If you want to go into a gray area, you could include Avery Johnson and Maurice Cheeks.

I agree that Gilbert should be more of a distributor, but I love how Simmons mentions Chris Paul and Steve Nash when neither has won any titles.

Posted by: Pradamaster | November 14, 2007 12:31 PM "

Chauncey Billups comes to mind easily, as a blue collar true point guard. While he's not JKidd or SNash, he easily sacrifices his scoring average to get his assists up by getting his teammates involved. Plus, he plays hard nosed defense, is not a clown, and is a clutch shooter.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?statsId=3174

Teams that have won championships in the past besides Detroit have built their teams around the superstars. These superstars have carried their teams to championship glory, be it MJ, Kobe/Shaq, or DWade/Shaq, and didn't need, nor did they run traditional PG based offenses.

Where has Les BouleS's "superstar" carried us? Three missed free throws, one and done the rest of the seasons...

And BTW, why doesn't Tony Parker count?

"On another note, I'm such a Wiz homer that I rejoice in seeing guys struggle after they leave us. After years of watching ex wiz players prosper elsewhere, am I the only one who giggles like a schoolgirl at Jared Jeffries and Larry Hughes's box scores? I'm hating for life.

Posted by: mark | November 14, 2007 12:27 PM "

Unfortunately you've forgotten other players like Big Ben, Rip, and even Stack who have had playoff success, and gone on to bigger and better.

You can laugh at Larry, but Larry's team went to the finals last year. What happened to Les BouleS?

Dennis Johnson was as "true" a point guard as they come.

"Dennis Johnson was as "true" a point guard as they come.

Posted by: Prazak | November 14, 2007 01:38 PM "

DJ couldn't shoot though.

Some of the best poor man PG's out there are Sam Cassell and Sherman Douglas.

I'll withold judgement on EJ's coaching, substitution patterns & end of game adjustments until the All-Star Break this season. Right now, I think EJ is a polished offensive guy who has the groceries (as Parcells says) that he needs to win and be an above .500 team that's competitive night in and night out. When we had Larry Hughes, we held down home court and won the games we should have won on the road for the most part. The core of the current team has been together long enough that we should win the southeast.

"I agree that Gilbert should be more of a distributor, but I love how Simmons mentions Chris Paul and Steve Nash when neither has won any titles.

Paul is in his third year and was in the top 5 in assists in both of his first two. Nash has led the league in assist the past 3 years, won two MVP awards and got his team to the conference Finals. Titles or no, they're still pretty good templates for a playmkaing, game-controlling PG.

Go Wizards! BTW, the team's home games need some new cheers. The "Get That Ball" and the stupid house organ just nauseates me. I know this isn't college ball, but hire some writers for some new cheers and gimmicks.Get some drums and some ex-college cheerleaders (the shouters, not the dancers) in there to build the atmosphere. The NBA is entertainment after all.

The question is the ultimate value of a distributing PG vs. a shoot-first point. MJ's Bulls and Kobe/Shaqs' Lakers didn't have a traditional point at all. Neither did the Wade/Shaq heat. Of course, they had other players who were fairly decent... ;-)

Same with Tony Parker, although he has a little more of a shooter's mentality than a passers'. But again, Duncan makes that team go.

You can win with Gil, I believe. His PER, +/- and other statistical measures of a player's effectiveness all put him near the top of the league. In addition, it's a simple fact that when he's on, the Wiz usually win; he commands so much respect from defenses, that it opens up everything for everyone else. The question is when he'll be back to his old self.

One ESPN dude, don't remember who, did an analysis of Gil's offensive game last year and said he didn't have a weakness in that regard. There are games when it certainly looks like that, but we haven't seen one this year.

I believe the bench could be the Wiz' X-factor this year. Assuming Gil comes around, I think we've got a lot more bench potential.

Of course Paul and Nash are good examples of passing point gaurds. But Bill Simmons stated, "Gilbert seems to get this sometimes; other times, he just says 'screw it' and goes for himself. And that doesn't work if you're trying to win a title..."

So, from Simmon's comments, Billups would have been a better example as a championship winning point gaurd for Gilbert to emulate.

I think some of us have a different perception of scorers in this league based on their position. I would never say that AI said 'screw it' and went for his on the Sixers teams he played on. He scored because he had to. I feel the same way about our team. Regardless of the numbers that CB and AJ put up, it's been documented that when GA scores x number of points, we fare better in the W/L column. He is the X factor on this team and the numbers seem to substantiate that. Given that, when he shoots a lot, it's hard for me to blame him. Because he's listed as a PG, I think he gets a bad rap for taking a lot of shots from traditionalists who like the Cousy, Stockton, Magic type who pass first. I asked this before. If GA were listed as a SG, would we have a problem with his shots? Probably not.
My other point is that based on what I've read about the Princeton offense, it's an offense that is unbiased. That is, there are no set plays for any particular person. Whoever gets open via a backdoor cut or whatever should get the ball. If that's the case, then the high post player (Haywood/Blatche) or the wing guys should be just as responsible for getting assists as the PG. The only time the PG should get more is in transition and GA is actually not bad in transition. Am I describing the Princeton offense incorrectly ? On the great Pete Carill teams of the 80's or 90's, I'd like to know how the assists were distributed among the starters. I'd be surprised if there was a large margin between the PG and other players. Sharing the ball is not just GA's job. It's everyones job but GA takes all of the blame for some reason.

I think Keithinator hit at what I was trying to say.

Once you get into the "pure point guard vs. non-pure point guard" debate, you're really just arguing semantics. Besides, I think what we're seeing is that players get attached the "pure point guard" label once they win, even if their game doesn't change. Billups is a great example of proving my point, actually. In the 2003/2004 season, Billups shot 39 percent from the field and had only 6.5 assists/40 minutes. Are those really "pure point guard" numbers? That team took off when Sheed came aboard, and for the most part, Sheed's production came independent of Billups. Billups just got the "pure point guard" label then because he won.

Parker averaged less than an assist more per 40 minutes than Gil last year, but because he has Duncan and Ginobili, he takes fewer shots, and therefore gets the "pure point guard" designation. In reality, they're similar players, but because Parker has won a title, he gets the "pure point guard" designation. In reality, he just has better teammates.

Someone mentioned Dennis Johnson, which also doesn't really fly. When he played for Seattle and Phoenix, DJ was a scoring guard who never averaged more than six assists/40 minutes. It was only when he came to Boston, where he was surrounded by much, much better teammates, that his assist numbers rose. Was that DJ, or was it just playing with better teammates? I'd say the latter.

I guess my point is twofold. First, Simmons' contends that 51 years of evidence proves that "pure point guards" win, when the reality is that's not so conclusive. Second, a player often only gets the "pure point guard" designation when they win, when in reality they're just playing with better teammates.

Basically, it's more complex that just saying "Gilbert needs to play like Chris Paul."

I agree with you guys. If we win it all this year, GA becomes a true PG even if his assist numbers stay the same.

Eddie - No more small-ball. No more small-ball. We want more TALL-BALL (AB & HAYWOOD). More DEFENSIVE minutes for DMAC on the 1, 2, and/or 3 spot. Coach the game like the Atlanta game. Lets do this "thang" Eddie..........

Finished reading USA Today and Times sports section. Both writers disagree with fans and analysts criticizing Eddie Jordan for the woes of the Wizards. They both said "Its up to the players" So Ivan, & company all feel its on the players..YET!! most folks cant figure his rotations..go figure.

To deal with Arenas he felt you had to be knowledgable in sports medicine and the psyche. (I'll drink to that)But for the most part - both said its up the all the players to step it up and give it their full attention.

Now -after reading some comments by DS - I gotta say..for a 6'5 218 guy - same as CB
he's a "block head" This might tell us why he was such a sorry sack o craps last season. He talked about having knee surgery April 2006 - he got fat during his recovery, eating, doing nothing. It took him until February fo this year to get his weight down & to "feel" like playing"

Now, he whines..he doesn't feel like playin cuz he misses Gil. "Can't wait for him to come back" Am I missin something here?

And for this...we paid this guy 3 million dollars.

"I agree with you guys. If we win it all this year, GA becomes a true PG even if his assist numbers stay the same.

Posted by: freedom0125 | November 14, 2007 03:37 PM "

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Freedom, you are making crazy statements. That's like saying if pigs fly, then they become birds. Pigs won't be flying anytime soon, and Les BouleS won't be "winning it all" this season.

BTW, your quote for the skins blog was in today's sports section.

When we're talking about pure point guards, we're talking about a floor general who does it all, not just shoots the rock whenever he has an itch in his finger.

A floor general runs the show, and when Gilby tries to become a floor general, he becomes a very, very average NBA baller. When he becomes a shoot first guard though, that is when he's more likely to shine, on a personal level.

Mark ... I'm with you. I'm a hater of most ex-wiz ( especially Kwame ), and I love it when their box score lines are awful.

There are a couple of exceptions, I still root for CWeb, Ben Wallace, and Rip Hamilton ( these guys didn't really want to leave).

I have even mellowed over the years and I now root for Juwan Howard ... so Kwame ... there is still hope for you.

"Finished reading USA Today and Times sports section. Both writers disagree with fans and analysts criticizing Eddie Jordan for the woes of the Wizards."

Well, that's not quite true. Don't know about the Times, but here's what David Dupree said in USA Today. His actual quotes (from his chat) are as follows:

Washington, DC: Hey David, What's the deal with the Wizards? Is this just a slow start that can be turned around or are they in real trouble? Will this be the year when they make it to the mythical "next level" or should we expect some major housecleaning at season's end if they fall short? It seems to me that Ernie Grunfeld (who's done a great job turning the team around from oblivion) may have misfired by (A) outbidding himself and overpaying DeShawn Stevenson (thus putting them in a bit of a money bind when it cam to filling out the roster) and (B) not getting more veteran help for the bench. Your thoughts? Darren

David DuPree: Hey, Darren. Sounds to me like you are right on with most of your points. I'm still not sold on Brendan Haywood, and the Wizards' team defense is horrible. I would have kept Navarro, personally. They didn't get enough for him because they did overpay DeShawn Stevenson and didn't have the money. They can't trade any of the Big Three because that would be a step backward. I think it is going to be difficult for them to get back to the playoffs, which means Eddie Jordan's job is in jeopardy. Of course, when Gilbert gets healthy, everything could turn around. We'll see.

Andres (Akron, OH): Hey David, Can you explain what's happening with the Wizards? Is Eddie Jordan in jeopardy of getting fired?

David DuPree: Hey, Andre., The Wizards don't play defense, they often look confused on offense and, yes, Eddie Jordan is in jeopardy of getting fired. Getting beaten like they have been getting beaten is inexcusable.

He acknowledges that they've been playing poorly (shock) and that as a result Jordan's job is in jeopardy. But that's a far cry from expressly and solely blaming Jordan for the Wiz's problems. Whenever a team plays poorly, the coach's job is always in jeopardy, regardless of whether he's primarily to blame or not. It goes with the territory and every coach knows that going in.

The simple (and one would think, obvious) fact is that when a team is struggling like the Wiz have been, everybody shares the blame.

Keithinator said: I think Eddie's a lousy coach, and the improved teams and playoff runs the last few years are more Ernie's work than Eddie's, IMO. They simply have a lot more talent than they've had previously.

With that logic, then this whole losing streak should also be attributed to Ernie. So now, Ernie must go.

Gee Wiz ... gimme a break, already.

Mark is basically right, once a team starts to run the Princeton offense the point guard becomes a cutter just like everyone else.

Add in the fact that when Daniels is in the lineup Arenas slides to the two, and Arenas's shots vs. assists numbers get even further skewed when compared to guys like Paul.

Assists are also tough to come by if your not playing with good shooters. Right now Daniels and Stevenson are still hovering under 30% from the field. The dirty little secret of the Wizards that got out when Jamison went down last year, is that for an "offensive team" we really had very few offensive players.

Starting in the Portland game teams started to realize that if they shaded a little off their man and get a step closer to the lane while crowding Arenas more they could take the chance against our jump shooters.

Can't get many assists when Jarvis Hayes is clanging wide open jumpers or you're playing 4 on 5 on offense with Ruffin in the game at crunch time. I'd wager that if you swapped Nash for Arenas on last year's teams Arenas assists would go up playing with that group of shooters, and Nash would have ended up taking more shots himself here.

A good coach learns to adapt to his players strengths and live with their weaknesses and weave them together to create a winner. Offensively Jordan should be commended for creating one of the top teams in the league with the group offensively challenged players he's had to work with.

Who was the traditional point that played for the Bulls 6 champions? Sam Cassell was a score first point with the Rockets and he's got a ring. Billups is definetly a combo type point that's got a ring to go with it. So I don't think Arenas has to fit a certain mold to be successful.

In the opener against Indiana the three guys on the team that play the two guard totaled 18 minutes combined. So Gil played over 30 minutes as the two in that game, yet some were on here complaining that our point guard took 25 shots. Arenas took 25 shots but played about 2/3 of the night at the two.

So the point is that trying to compare Arenas to guys that play point all the time on teams where the ball always cycles back to the point to reset the play is like comparing apples to oranges. Let ESPN's guys keep writing such crap all they want.

Our guys seem to like to fly under the radar and they're definitely in stealth mode right now.

Mark, don't bet the ride either. If you lose you'll be bringing up something like three missed free throws two seasons later!

I agree with you, Prada, that the PG/SG debate is overwrought. GM's right too that when the Princeton is running correctly the PG becomes one of several ballhandlers/cutters -- although it helps to have a Jason Kidd. Bottom line is you need unselfish play and lots of ball movement, and the resulting assists don't have to come from a PG in the traditional model.

But I have to take exception to those downplaying Dennis Johnson as a great PG. Yes he was primarily a scorer at Seattle. But lots of players round out their skills as they mature, and in his last six or seven seasons in Boston he was one of the great point guards in the league: handled the ball well, very few turnovers, distributed it down into the post to the Chief or McHale and out to the wings to Bird and Ainge, played lock-down defense, and contrary to DCMan's comment, hit plenty of clutch jumpers and free throws. And by all accounts a decent human being.

Oh, I didn't mean to downplay DJ...he was great. I can't believe Phoenix traded him for Rick Robey.

It's just that it's difficult to really figure out whether he became a "pure point guard" because he changed his game, or because he was surrounded by better players. That's why the pure point guard thing is overrated...you can't really define it within a winning framework. Teams win many different ways with many different types of players.

BTW, another great example of the fallacy of "pure point guards" is Earl Monroe. When he was in DC, he was very much like Gilbert (at least everything I've read about him...I wasn't alive then) in terms of the classic "pure point guard" problem, but once he was traded to New York, he sacrificed shots and became less of a scorer. Again, is that Monroe, or is that better teammates?

Interesting point P-master...Oldtimers like me need to chime in on this one: My recollection is that Clyde Frazier was more of the point guard than Earl. Earl did adjust and limit his play as he was paired with Frazier who was more of a scoring point as well. If you remember Dick Barnett was matched with Clyde before Pearl and Barnett was clearly a shooting guard. Kevin Loughery was matched with Pearl and he clearly was a 2. So the genious of the trade the Knicks made was that they saw that the merging of the 2 point guards would work. Unfortunately for us, it did. That Knick team was legendary.
It was the combo guard concept that the Zards supposedly have but done to perfection. Both Pearl and Clyde were both gifted enough and smart enough to make it work.

In Monroe's case it was a combination of a better system and better players with the Knicks. The Pearl didn't have to carry the scoring load in the knicks offense.

Heard Walt Frazier talking about Monroe one night while doing the Knicks game. He said Monroe was the best player he ever saw at making the pass to setup the assist. Another words like a good chess player Monroe was thinking several moves ahead.

Pradamaster, you are a young guy, Monroe played for the Bullets back in their Baltimore days. The beauty of the Knicks system was that other than Willas Reed almost everybody was interchangable. Frazier, Monroe, Bradley and Debushurre(?) we all about 6'3" to 6'6" and they could all shoot or put it on the floor if needed.
Alot of picks, and screens and guys looking to flash open to catch and shoot. But Holtzman let his guard free lance alot within his system.

They played inside out alot with Frazier or Monroe trying to take which ever guard had the mismatch into the post if possible. If the bigs tried to sag in to help their forwards would kill you from outside.

Monroe and Johnson are examples to me of very talented guys that learned to adjust and play within a team concept to get their rings as the matured. I see no reason that Arenas won't be smart enough to follow the same path in his career.

Just hope that we're smart enough to let him mature and do it for us instead of somewhere else.

"Mark, don't bet the ride either. If you lose you'll be bringing up something like three missed free throws two seasons later!

Posted by: GM | November 14, 2007 05:15 PM "

I'm sure Gilby missing those 3 free throws left a bad taste in his mouth, but not as bad of a taste that someone had after the barn.

"Monroe and Johnson are examples to me of very talented guys that learned to adjust and play within a team concept to get their rings as the matured. I see no reason that Arenas won't be smart enough to follow the same path in his career."

Again, though, is that Monroe and Johnson, or is it playing with better teammates? I guess that was my main point...you just don't know with people once labeled as "shoot first" guys.

Mr. Kalorama, I believe I said I "read 2 articles" not reviewed or participated in a "chat." I'm friends with D. Dupre & fully aware w/his "chat" & his opinion of wizards. To clarify(not sure it will make much difference to you since you completely misread what was written -

The articles did comment as have Ivan, Wilbon and Wise - Eddie J is not to blame for Wiz loses. The players bare responsibility to execute and play to win.

These last two wins are a great case in point. EJ gives the plan - the players execute.

The motivation to do "their" jobs came from Butler and Jamison. No EJ - who clearly hasn't be able to motivate them to play any differently..

But its nice you printed Dave's comments & opinion of Wiz. He's usually pretty on point. We'll see where Wiz end up.

I won't be watching them til around January. For now - I'm watching and enjoying the Celtics. Not sure how long those seniors - who all deserve MVP awards for playing tirelessly alone for yrs on drowning teams - will last but they make me enjoy basketball.

Peace