Chavez may have authoritarian tendencies. He may use overblownn rhetoric. He may well be a former putchist. But George W. Bush is a far greater danger to the world. Anyone who stands up to him has my sympathy. Bush supports torture. He imprisons people in secret. He violates international law. He disregards treaties. He invades nations without good cause. He is a menace to humanity. Thank God there are some world leaders courageous enough to say so.

Dear Jefferson,

This is exactly my problem with WaPo reporters and US media in general when I say they are staunchly establishment when it comes to Foreign Policy and seem to do only the bidding of big business propaganda instead of straight reporting.

I should not complain to you 'cos its not what you wrote and I will complain to Marcela Sanchez during her live chat later. Please read this ridiculous paragraph in her article today and see how many outright lies and distortions you can make out.

"...New economic, social and political experiments, like the kind Chavez is pushing, are not gaining a foothold in Latin America. After 10 years of polling, the Chilean firm Latinobarometro concluded last week that Latin Americans are sold on democracy as a way of life. And even though in the last three years popular approval of democracy has not budged from 53 percent, Latin Americans are not actively seeking out alternatives. In fact a large majority say market economies (63 percent) and the private sector (59 percent) are what will help their countries develop. "

Chavez is not pushing anti-democratic model infact he is doing just the opposite by bringing in the traditionally maligned poor into the process - this is the bait and switch that American reporters do all the time they confuse DEMOCRACY with CAPITALISM and further confuse capitalism with free markets. Capitalism is an ECONOMIC system, Democracy is a POLITICAL system - the two are very mutually exclusive.

After reading Sanchez's article one comes away with the feeling that those protesting are wingnuts anti-democratic forces and Bush once again only wants to bring freedom and democracy. This is what I mean by WaPo and others US media being nothing but Propaganda for US big business.

If Capitalism is an economic System and Democracy is a political Systems, What is Communism and what sort economic system does it work with?

It seems to me, from Bush's language, that he is in Latin America to impose his system of governing and economics not engage in productive dialouge. Although Bush tells people that he wants to work towards bringing both sides together, he only wants the other side to come to his side. It is evident in his rationale for war. It is why he said you are either with us or against us. It is Bush's only style of leadership and I am getting tired of it. I do like a strong leader, who will stand his or her ground, however, I want a leader that has flexibilty and can compromise as well. It's hard for the psyche of the USA to come to terms with the fact that we are being governed by a dictatorial leader at this time. We refuse to acknowledge it by calling others evil dictators like Chavez and Castro. I have to keep telling myself, one day Bush will be gone.

George, you don't know what you are talking about. Chavez supports torture (Guevara brothers), imprisons and kills people in secret (Silvinio Bustillo), violates internatinal law (Human Rights - see latest IACHR report), diregards treaties (oil companies shakedown), invades private land without good cause, is a menace to society. Then you thank God.

George W. Bush is a God-fearing man. Chavez OTOH does not believe in God. You really need to learn more about Chavez.

God fearing men have committed some of the worst atrocities in history so I wouldn't bet on that.

Senhor Charles,
Going beyond ideology and Fox-type soundbites...
Itis true that Mr. Chavez has debilitated the traditional democratic and bureaucratic institutions in order to make room for his Boliviarian revolution. Furthermore, his fiscal policies are questionable due to their potential sustainability. However, we have to to be open to the idea that the Venezuelan system is more participative than before, since due to education drives and grass roots work, poor people know that they count. It is very superficial (hence, I assume that you do not know much about Latin America)to think that democracy in Venezuela and the region is falling apart just because the traditional political actors who have done nothing in the last decades are weakened.
As for Mr. Bush, protecting a terrorist like Posada Carriles, weakening the social safety net of the US, serving christian fundamentalist interests, practicing widespread cronysm and undermining the economy do not qualify him as the best leader for the interests of his people.
We can continue to talk Mr. Charles, with numbers on hand, to see who is more destructive to his respective country, the " communist" or the "cowboy in the boubble." Unlike Bush, Chavez is able to walk freely without a bubble isolating him from criticism and from the voice of the majority.

there's a difference between democracy and populism. also, personality cults are historically very dangerous. can you really picture chavez giving up power one day? these kind of "reform" leaders always say they need to stay in power until they "fix" things, which eventually turns into a license to rule for life.

(also, manu chao is european, not latin american.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_Chao)

The real issue is the lazy propaganda being peddled by Marcela Sanchez.

Considering Chavez is the first fully democratic leader of Venezuela, has introduced legislation to include everyone in the democratic process (including the re-call legislation that was used against him), Sanchez is relying on the chronic ignorance of her readers to produce a false impression of Chavez as non-democratic.

It's irresponsible, it's dangerous and it's yet another astonishing condemnation of American mainstream media.

Hugo Chavez brings out strong opinions and maybe some carelessness. You may disagree with Marcela Sanchez's take on Latin America and democracy but to say she is doing "the bidding of big business propaganda" seems unfounded and unfair. Her point was that the region as a whole shows more favor to pragmatic leftists like Lula, Kirchner and Lagos to Chavez whose agenda is ambtious and radical. That's not big business talking. Them's the facts.

Charles's laundry list indictment of Chavez goes over the top when it comes to "invading lands without cause." The Venezuela land reform program is a legal program that seeks to transfer unused property to poor people. The program has for owners and is subject to judicial review. There have been controversies about some seizures but the taking of land has not been done "without cause."

Krupa,

Labelling a leader 'populist' does not make them non-democratic.

By what criteria do you use to describe Chavez as populist? If such is the case any radical world leader of considerable influence such as Blair or even Bush or populist.

George Miller , you should be ashamed of yourself for the untruthful things you just wrote about Bush. You said, "Bush supports torture. He imprisons people in secret. " Neither one of those comments are truth. You just like to lie to see if you can intimadate someone trying to stand for justice that is left in this world. God doesn't honor that.

Based on the academic definition of populism, Bush is as close or closer than Mr. Chavez; pursuing clientilist policies (tax cuts and energy policies), mesianic view ( Bush thinks that God has chosen him to lead the American people and the world, how much more mesianic can you be?), irresponsible economic policies (twin deficits, undermining the social safety net), use of nationalist rethoric (War on terror and America's supposed role to spread democracy), symbolism (landing on the aircraft carrier, september 11 analogies), etc
I mean, the MSM and Americans should be talking more about populism in the US than in LATAM. "El burro hablando de orejas"

Bush supports torture.
If not, then why did the White House threatened to veto a bill that did not exempt CIA operatives from legislation against torture? Why does the White House do not push for greater scrutiny in the CIA secret facilities and US bases? Wasn't Alberto Gonzales involved in the drafting of legal opinions that would stretch the definition of torture?
PY Listener, I hope that you are not one of those christians that can recite the bible but advocates for the death penalty and intolerance of other religions...That is hypocrecy

Keep your eyes on Bolivia: Elections postponed from Dec. 8 to 18. Ex pres. Carlos Mesa resigned three times, but refused to call out the troops to open the blockades around El Alto and La Paz. Two in line to take over constitutionally felt they could not or would not handle the situation and the Supreme Court President is now interim president, respected, but with no political base. Meanwhile, agitation from the Santa Cruz region is for autonomy, if not secession. The issue of natural gas (reserves second greatest in SA) and the proper rate of royalties (tax) and the DISTRIBUTION OF INCOMNE will prove to be the making or breaking of the nation, perhaps. The indigenous (have had the vote since 1952 and are the most populous in this country of 8,000,000) have been on the short end of the stick, or trickle down economics so favored by First World nations, and will blockade and disrupt commerce and transportation, just as they have in the past. Not so incidentally, blockades are generally NON-VIOLENT; the violence coming by the police and military.

So, some of us watch with some fear, also some hope, hope that some accomodation will occur, without international interference (Note: US air base activated for joint military operations at Estigarribia, Paraguay in July, 155 miles from Bolivia. The agreement with Paraguay is that all personnel at the air base will be considered 'diplomatic' personnel, immune from any civil or criminal proceedings as a result of their activities) and without bloodshed. There was blood shed in 2000 at the blockades over privatization of water for Cochabamba, and blood shed over gas tax blockades in 2003---but in May of 2005, President Mesa refused to call out the troops, the blockades were lifted and
a process of re-examining the constitution, elections and free discussion over federalization, autonomy and natural resources was begun.

If Bolivia is torn apart over who gets the revenue from another extractive resource, Bolivians will be the losers. The parallels with Iraq will be stark, as in oil, Kurds, Sunni, Shiite, water and in neighboring countries not actively helping the troubling situation.

My vote and hope is for justice and peace.

Charles, the so called "god fearing" people is just a bunch of pharisees who like to show off, come on, don't be so naive. A real God-fearing person never makes it public, read the Bible and you will see.

Interesting debate here... much more interesting and full throated than any of the supposed journalism the MSM is providing.

I don't know much about Chavez and the policies he espouses, but I do know that the way Sanchez frames the issue presents the sort of false dichotomy that doesn't serve anyone well. To speak of a colorful world in stricly black and white terms only contributes to polarization.

If I understand correctly, the relationship between political systems like communism, fascism, or democracy, and economic systems like capitalism or socialism is actually quite complex. Isn't there a continuum to some extent between capitalism and socialism?

Someone please feel free to educate me... all I know is that I percieve much of the rhetoric on these topics as empty. We in America say we have a free market capitalist system but I dont' see this in reality. Corporate power and wealth control the game to their liking. As long as we the people keep being good consumers everything is fine...

www.this2shallpass.com

Watch out Dubya!, there is no such thing of choreographed town hall meetings in South America, so you might not like what you see or hear, over there you are out of your protective bubble. If you go to the streets don't expect to find flag-wearing republicans, yes-men, press officials telling people what to say and ask, professional flatterers. Welcome to the real world.

Why is it that whenever any reporter writes something that you don't agree with it is "propaganda" issued at the behest of some government or mandated by some conspiracy theory? Whenever I read these responses they are usually posted by the same people with the same angle (i.e. that reporter is just toting the company line response) as though no reporter could possible think for themselves. However, I suppose it's easier to attack that which you do not agree with mindless banter instead of stating why you disagree. You are all pathetic and I'm done reading these comments.

Kevin, free markets is only a tongue in cheek phrase for the United States since your country is one of the most protectionist in the world, but we have to bend over the demands of american investors to give up concesions plus a leg and a arm, thanks to some of our spineless governments. Not fair at all.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to Marcela Sanchez, after all her background is of a colombian middle class extraction, one of the most elite in L.A., always eager to please.

I don't know how is your Spanish but I would recommend you to peruse some newspapers in South America, just to get a taste of what is the real opinion we have about your government, please note that this is not an issue against your country because we know how thousands of americans have a big disagreement with Bush and Co., so for some people who may care to reply, please spare me the capitalism/free market BS, we all know they don't work here and they hardly work overthere, unless you're a big corporation, Bush pal or big donor.

Give me a friggin break! What the hell is wrong with Latin America, why are they so hateful to America? Like it or not BUSH is our Leader, Yea we invaded IRAQ! Brutal Dictators are THREATS! Chavez/Castro connection? Allies nonetheless, does South America want a CUBAN style goverment? Keep it up, then come kissing American ASS begging for us to help you! GET OVER IT, AMERICA MEANS YOU NO HARM! USA is the worlds friend, remember who bails you out in TIME OF NEED. We harbour your refugees, and fund your goverments when times get bad, BUSH is no GOD, and he is far from being the perfect World leader, but who are you waiting for to make a change? America should butt out of everybodys business and only dish-out money when you need us? NO!

Welcome to the fray Kevin.

I'll tell you a little bit about where I'm coming from here and suggest how you can learn more.

I focus my coverage on Hugo Chavez because he embodies the historical confrontation between the Latin America and the United States. This is not to say that he is right or wrong, only that his agenda is to define--and provoke--the conflict between the interests of the U.S. government and the interests of the poor majority in Latin America.

This conflict has been central to politics in the Western hemisphere since the time of Simon Bolivar in the early 19th century. That is why Chavez calls his movement the Bolivarian revolution.

The conflict ebbs and flows. At times, the United States has tried to ease the conflict, as in FDR's Good Neighbor policy and JFK's Alliance for Progress. More recently, Latin American political leaders have also tried to ease the conflict by adopting the so-called Washington consensus, an economic program of free trade and reduced government spending.

As these policies have not delivered widespread benefits, their popularity has waned and leftist political parties have fared better, capturing the presidency in Brazil, Argentina and other countries. So we are again in a time of relative conflict.

I assume you can't read Spanish. But you can follow the debate about Venezuela pretty well by reading both of the following Web sites:
Venenzuela Analysis
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/
(Pro-Chavez)
VCrisis
http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=home
(Anti-Chavez)

Oh, please. Bush did NOT give that interview in Spanish. The only thing he said in Spanish was "Jorge, como yo." (If that's "serviceable Spanish," I'm a kumquat.) The rest of it was in English, translated by La Nación into Spanish. A little fact-checking before you blog, please.

Macondo - Bush does not feel that God has chosen him to lead the American people and the world. What a degrading statement you made. If anything, the American Conservatist believe God allowed Bush to serve as their president to help a balance in "justice" which the world seems to just want to "do their own thing" (whatever feels good) to them.
Why just try to "dig" at people just because you want to sound like you "know it all". What do you gain in doing so??
You who are arguing are not arguing against "Bush", you are arguing because you do not dare to blame "God" for your disatisfying lifestyles that you are chosing.

Lighten up and re-read WJL. I didn't say he did the interview in Spanish. I said he showed off his serviceable Spanish.

I glanced at my Merriam-Webster Dictionary and a Populist is defined as " a believer in or advocate of the rights, wisdom or virtues of the common people". In the Declaration of Independence which is in part a mission statement for the future United States, it states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that amomg these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights GOVERNMENTS ARE INSTITUTED AMONG MEN, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." I would call that a populist statement. I don't think Bush qualifies as a populist, as his administraion governs for big business and the wealthy. It is definitely not a government for all the people.
By the way, the people of the U.S. are no longer protected by trade barriers. The U.S. businesses that grew strong behind trade barriers have gone overseas seeking cheaper labor, and are trying to lower wages in the U.S. directly by bringing in cheaper foreign labor.
In deed, I would recommend that every country in the world have trade barriers to protect their own economic independence. Otherwise, your economies will be taken over by foreign interests. There is no independence without economic independence.
The U.S. would not have become a world power without them, nor would we have had the industries that carried the free world through two World Wars.
"Free Trade" will not make you free!

Any of the pro Chavez people lives in Venezuela? If not, SHUT YOUR MOUTH!! It is so easy to speak philosophically about things you do not live with every moment, every second, every day. Yes, we are afraid of Chavez, yes, we live in a dictatorship regime, yes, our President is Castro-Chavez (in that order). Do we care about Busch? Do we care about pretty words, ugly words? Do we care about "understanding the metaphisics of such and such country", the "intentions of the imperialistic U.S.A. against the poor Latin America countries"? No, we dont. We care about Venezuela, about the future of Venezuela (do you see a Cuban branch in the future?, because we do, and are terrified by the prospect) Wake up, people! Forget about what Busch wants, or whatever the hell he is thinking. Our problem, our IMMEDIATE problem, is named Chavez. And, by the way, he was elected democratically and was thrown out of Government also democratically. Where is he now? Fighting for Venezuela? Making of Venezuela a prosper, democratic, happy Venezuela? No, he is handing Venezuela on a silver plate to Castro and whoever mouths anything anti-Busch. Venezuela is poorer than before, sadder than before, afraid, (oh, so afraid) of the murderer in Miraflores. So, forget about pretty words, forget about how much a person may know about world economics, politics, freedom, etc. etc. and come down and live with us for a while, but REALLY live with us. Fight with us everyday to keep hunger, sickness, fear, away from us and only then speak to us of politics, Bushes, anti-this and pro-that. Till then, SHUT YOUR MOUTH!!

He showed off his serviceable Spanish in one (Jorge, como yo) sentence fragment, Jeff? You're a pushover.

Fhernando: "......USA is the worlds friend, remember who bails you out in TIME OF NEED...."

Go back to school man and take a cold shower. Who are US' friends/former friends?: Noriega, Somoza, Montesinos, Pinochet, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, etc, etc., all fully funded by your friendly (??) government.

And, that's true, is your leader not ours, we only ask for one thing: leave us alone. All this time the so called Washington Consensus has been dictating our destiny, so I guess the question should go to yourself, what the heck is wrong with you and people like you?

"the American Conservatist believe God allowed Bush to serve as their president to help a balance in "justice" which the world seems to just want to "do their own thing" (whatever feels good) to them."

Are you serious?, what god is that?, let me remind you that during history we have had kings, presidents, dictators who called themselves "god chosen" or god sent and in name of God they commited atrocities, please not again, tell me you're joking.

Free trade, populism, and radical socialism, each of these must take a minor part in a nation's life; for once one of them gains the upper hand, the nation becomes a slave to it and its personality as an independent nation-state is crushed.

Mary - Please just drop your theatrics. You live in Venezuela about as much Bush lives in Iraq. You are probably comfortably esconced in LA having fled Venezuela with money for the poor being an accomplice to many theiving aristocrats that ruled the poor. Spare me your hysteria and take a chill pill. Chavez is in power now and there is nothing you nor Bush can do about it!!. So you shut your own mouth.

Bravo Mary!! Truer words never spoken! Mary, you are soooo right. The complainers should try living in Venzuela and even in the tribal areas where Chavez has hoped to get rid of all americans who are trying to help your tribal people there.
Hang in there, Mary, you are a good citizen of Venzuela!

Mary, where do you REALLY live?, definitely not in Venezuela, perhaps Miami where the bulk of well off venezuelans live "la vida loca" in full swing.

My dear God!!, PYlistener, you don't live in Venezuela either, so do what Mary said.

We certainly have a lot of Anti-Christ present in this discussion. Anyone who is against what Christ stands for: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance obviously is against what Christ stood for and lived while upon this earth.
This is not about Bush and Chavez, it is about your attitude towards God and those who want to live according to the Word of God vs. those who do not want to live according to the Word of God and who choses to live like they want (and no one will be able to tell them any differently).

I live in Venezuela, I work in Venezuela, I love Venezuela and yes, I love theatrics, I used to play in amateur theaters and also I have a name. Do you? And yes, you are right, Chavez is in power and I cannot do anything. Does it make it less sad? By the way, where do you live, and how? I, together with 95% of Venezuela, feel robbed of my rights to speak, to work, to keep my hard earned possessions, to meet whomever and wherever I want, to go out without wondering if I will be able to return unharmed to my house. Whoever you may be, your words and the way you use them give credit to my previous comment. You, Chavez supporters, do not discuss, or explain your preferences as civilized people, you insult, you threaten, you mock, because its the only way you know how to answer. Feel free to continue your abuse. Ah!, I am here visiting family, who paid for my trip, as a Christmas present, among 4 of them. Satisfied?
PY Listener, thanks for your words.

SUDACA
I will tell you whats wrong with me, i am sick and tired of Ungrateful, whiny, titty babies like you, blaming AMERICA for your disgrace. DO SOMETHING FOR YOUR SELF! Start in your own home! SAY NO to the Polital thieves you elect, if none are good THEN YOU DO BETTER! It starts with someone saying "NO" (I.E., ROSA PARKS) someone you should read about, and the historical cocoon she provoked. YOU BE the difference, forget about complaining and do something. Complaining will get you nowhere! BE A VOICE and a FACE! DIG YOURSELF OUT OF YOUR MISERY, NO ONE ELSE WILL!

So I guess, Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, Scooter, et al, are good decent men and good christians?. Don't forget our beloved Jesus Christ fought against the stablishment at that time, faced the roman empire and all the Pharisees colaborators. Don't equal republican conservative values with real christian values, they are not necessarily the same, Christ is here for the poor, oppressed, the voiceless, not for the powerful, well connected/funded crowd, for the politically motivated or for those super fundraisers. You are not the one to judge or to decide who's is a good christian or how isn't according with your own bias or preferences. That's God's task.

Mary by your family do you mean, Karl Rove, Cheney, Rummy and Bush? Give me a break. You are such a liar - 95% of Venezuelans are not living in misery, people are free to move about and meet others. Please stop painting an obviously silly picture - even North Korea is not that clamped down. You anti-chavistas are just like the rabid right here in the US you just lie and make up stuff. I mean at least be realistic. Talk about argument, how can I argue with someone who just lies and obviously does not live in the reality-based world. The Man gets reelcted and yet 95% of the people live fear. I guess we have found the anti-christ himself.

A civics lesson for XX:
Communism IS the economic system. China is a communist country. It is also a democracy. A flawed one, for sure, but who are we to judge?
A democracy is a political system where citizens elect their representatives. We live in a capitalist democracy, Chavez is trying to make Venezuela a more socialist democracy. But it is still a democracy.
Let us not forget that he was elected by the majority of his people, which is something Bush could not claim until his second term.

And to PY Listener:
yes, bush DOES support torture, and he DOES imprison people in secret. DO you not read the front page of this newspaper?

CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret Prisons
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644.html

Cheney Plan Exempts CIA From Bill Barring Abuse of Detainees
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/24/AR2005102402051.html

My oh my fhernando, I wonder who is the one in misery here, oh yeah, I know Rosa Parks (whose death has prompted to have instant fans all of the sudden, now anybody has feelings for her)but racism os far from over.

You don't know what we do in our countries to get ahead or the tough job we have to do everyday but I can tell you the same regarding GW, be a voice and a face!, say no to the political thieves you elected (twice). No hard feelings, we share the same burden, dishonest politicos.

Carneo - you need to know what you are talking about instead of just yacking to hear your hear roar! :)

Mary , al menos tienes la libertad de salir de Venezuela para pasar la navidad con tus familiares en EEUU, para despues regresar, de que te quejas entonces?.

Sorry for those who don't understand english but I needed to write that for clarification purposes.

NY - For sure you cannot believe everything you read in the newspapers or hear on the news. It is quoted just like the newsman wants to write it and not necessarily as the truth. Even Carneo could not copy/paste correctly what I wrote... he had to leave out the "If anyhing," so he could quote like he wanted it to say and not the way that I wrote it. That is the way the newspapers can be also.

PY listener, I would say the same about you. Really.

That's what happens when you try to twist religion to your advantage, remember, antichrists do that, the Bible says so.

FYI Even with the "if anything" added, the intention remains. Unless you want to invoke that 'ol trick about your words being taken out of context.

SUDACA,
i do know what you do in your countries to survive, yes i understand that it is difficult, but i also understand, a fearful dog, cornered to the wall is going to vicously attack back. USA is a country of hope,freedom and prosperity. It is so awesome to live here! We as American people are compassionate, BUSH is our leader, it is his job to defend AMERICA at whatever cost. If it means politically raping other countries, its what he has to do to maintain the greatness of our country. Whether you are on the RIGHT or LEFT and you live in AMERICA, as much as you hipocritally may sympathize for the rest of the world (hipocrite) you know that BUSH does it to benefit the AMERICAN PEOPLE. If your president(CHAVEZ)interest is truly in his people, then you will see prosperity, if not, then do what you have to do, to get rid of him! (i.e, KENNEDY)

Ok, this is my last comment. I understand we all have differente views of the same problem.
1.- I am not a liar, what is in front of you cannot be hidden forever. Remember Lincoln: you can cheat some people all the time, etc. etc. (hope I am quoting right, if not, my apologies to Mr. Lincoln and the American people).

2.- Anonymous, you are pathetic.

2.- Jorge Pereda. If the liberty of going out of the country for Christmas and then returning is the only thing you want from life, more the pity.

Ok, this is my last comment. I understand we all have differente views of the same problem.

1.- I am not a liar, what is in front of you cannot be hidden forever. Remember: you can cheat some people all the time, etc. etc. (hope I am quoting right, if not, my apologies).

2.- Anonymous, you are pathetic.

3.- Jorge Pereda. If the liberty of going out of the country for Christmas and then returning is the only thing you want from life, more the pity.

Fhernando, do you realize what you just wrote?, so to maintain the greatness of your country is ok to !@@#$@## other countries, who gave you the right to do that?, God?, I don't think so.

You are a monster, a !@$#@$ sick monster.

So twisted you are that you even justify and take solace in Kennedy's assassination, I think your issues are deeper than just a tirade against latinamericans.

Thanks for showing your true colors, now more than ever we know we are right in standing up against people like you, I feel very sorry for those americans who have to witness such an abhorrence.

When I see posters with people like PY listener touting the bible -- I think of Revelations 6:11 verse 8

And I looked and behold a pale horse: and his mane that sat on him was Death, and "Hell followed with him. And power was giving unto them over the fouth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger and with death, and with the beast of the earth.

Mary, no need to pity me, it was just a simple question. Have a good xmas.

Sudaca -

Now you see what we have to deal with over here, however, my best advice to you Never argue with a fool's way of thinking fore it will make you look just as foolish.

The first amendment quotes "Freedom of speech" so they are entitled to their perrogative, however, as much as it sounds sickening to you don't give them the ammunition for which they seek.

They sitting at their keyboard laughing, becasue they figure they baited you and won.

DOES SHOUTING AND CURSING IN CAPITAL LETTERS PERSUADE ANYONE?

Nah. Cause we can't hear it.

Mary, I believe that you live in Venezuela but this is not the place to tell people who live in other countries to shut up. We're all citizens of the world and we all have an interest in what goes on in other countries.

As for you Fhernando, the idea that Americans are both a compassionate people and that their political leadership has the right to "rape" (your word, not mine) other countries to defend itself is, how can I put it, unlikely to persuade anyone outside your immediate family--and even there you might hear some objections.

Thanks, as foolish I may sound sometimes you have to shake the bushes to scare the snakes.

Thanks again, whoever you are.

This discussion can be endless. But if we stick to results: what can Chavez claim to have achieved in 7 years of government? Is Venezuela any safer now? Has unemployment gone down? Has the quality of education improved? Are living standards in the country better than before? Is the country less corrupt? The list of NO´s in this respect is also endless. But of course, he has the perfect "excuse": US "Imperialism", i.e. the thesis of the "external enemy", always at hand to justify his ineptitude and that of his collaborators. If somebody wants to reply, I expect an opinion based on objective information. And I do live in Venezuela.

SUDACA,and the other hipocrites....
AMERICA is a Great COUNTRY, it is ashamed that you feel animosity towards a friendly STATE. Let us look at our own lives, how many times have we coveted our neighbors wife, robbed our corporation of valuable work time, cause we feel the need to blog with others, and overdueing it at the sample stand at our local supermarket? Yes we all have lied, cheated, robbed and even raped to a certain degree our friends, our peers and even our countries. For as little as it may be its still W.R.O.N.G.!!!!!!!!! No one is perfect, but we do what we have to do to get by. Get off your Stage Drama queens'. Accept your hand in life, and admit YOU are at fault NOT George W. Bush, Not the AMerican people, NOT American foriegn policy, ITS YOUR OWN *!#$ FAULT!

Didn't the esteemed Washington Post editorially favor the fraudulent and disasterous Iraq war and didn't it editorially endorse the thuggish, inept, lightweight liar of a so-called "President" in the 2004 election, you know, the one that we are all now stuck with? No wonder everyone seems to fear and loathe us.

The owners of the Post, like those who own the country, are only in if for the money, and only for themselves.

Hugo & Bushtail: made for each other!

Chavez makes the laughable assertion that unemployment is a product of capitalism. Unemployment is much higher in Venzuela than in the U.S. and so is the percentage of the workforce employed in the "informal" economy. The "Bolivarian Revolution" is nothing more than the same false promises of Juan Peron and other nationalist populists. No matter how much people want to believe the state can just wave a wand and generate employment and a rising standard of living, it just isn't so.

Sudeca -

I am DeeDee I forgot to put my name down. However, my prayers are with you in your needs as they are with all living beings who are having diffucult time

Peace

Sudeca -

I am DeeDee I forgot to put my name down. However, my prayers are with you in your needs as they are with all living beings who are having diffucult time

Peace

To thernando. You need some serious help. Get that prescription refilled!!!

It tickles, and makes me laugh! The, im-so-smarter-than-you rhetoric of the "TOOLS" in this piece. You ridiculous morons! Life is so simple, and many complicate it by attempting to define it. Wake up world! BUSH and CHAVEZ are probably laughing and BS-ing over a game of pool! and you pathetic loosers sit here trying to analyze their every move! Go home tonight, make love to your wife, gay lover, or something! Release some stress! Not everything is as your media outlets portray! It is amazing how much we all have in common, no matter where we come from, who we vote for, or who we worship. Keep life SIMPLE! You never know when your last minute of life may be. Make a new friend, give a hug, and render a smile to someone, If you want world peace, start with yourselves!

Jimbo
failure?......you are probably working for me!!!!!

Are you Bush haters truly thankful for your country, freedoms and way of life that have been handed to you by brave American men and women? If you are you would stop bashing our elected president, elected by the American people. You may not agree with his policies, but his is still our president. If you would feel more at ease under Chavez's or Castro's leadership why not ask them to let you follow them.

Bush's world deeds are the product of Cheny's manipulations amd macinations. Bush has no status on the world stage. He has accentuated much that is wrong with a nation by claiming its exclusivity.

Bush (Cheny) has promulgated a pre-emptive war that is as anti-Christain and pro-stupid as anything the USA has ever done.

Bush (Cheny) has pushed a bankrupt foreign and domestic policy that is putting America's influence and ability to do any good in the world into one of the biggest transh bins of all time.

Bush (Cheny) has divided America in order to further a narrow, stupid, bankrupting set of policies that America's children and grand children will be paying for because Americans have not been willing to confront their own avarice to be the dictator of the world.

Chavez might be running roughshod over some of the rights of people in his country but America thanks to Bush (Cheny) are running roughshod over the planet.

Everyday in America one can sense that America will pay very dearly for its stupidity. There has been no sacrifice asked of the rich in America to fight the unconstitutional war in Iraq. The rich get richer, the middle class get squeezed into the ranks of the poor waiting in vain to be rescued. The middle class will become progressively poorer and in debt. The upper classes will become increasing arrogant and disdainful of the people who supply the soldiers that carry out their stupidity. Iraq will drain the moral and money fiber of America until it says uncle; and then it will be too late.

If Chavez is asking America to look at itself so much the better. South Americans have been asking the USA to do that for many years; they just have not been speaking with such a loud voice.

jimbo..you probably voted for KERRY and CLINTON...yellow belly coward! BE AN AMERICAN! How dare you bow to the COMMUNIST!

Fhernando, you give americans a bad rap. Are you sure you're american, by the way?

Working for you?, you've got be frigging kidding me, now, how's that about me being a coward?, talk is cheap man, did I ever say anything about communists?, come on dude, talk to me, I can hook you up with a nice chick so you can release all that stress.

Yes, Sr. Presidente tengamos un debate politico. I challenge Mr. Bush to a real debate with Presidente Chavez on the real issues that affect the world today. As the world stands today, I wayer my money that Chavez will have more common sense responses than Bush would ever be able to match in honesty and sincerity for the welfare of his country. And, by the way Mr. President; you will not be allowed to wear your wire during this debate. You will be subjected to a body search to make sure that you do not violate the rules of the debate.

Hey who turned the lights on? Look at the cockroaches scatter away!

This mesage board is planning to invade Venezuela....It is a represenatative of Imperlalism..blah blah...why doesn't Chavez chill out?.... And Bush---wow that guy is an idiot....I am from Colombia by the way, where our president makes mistakes also but at least he is cleaning up the country...

So, now it turns Chavez is a World Class Statesman...somebody who is in the right path to destroy what´s left of his country, somebody who has only aggravated his country´s already big problems...give me a break. Next thing you will say: "MARADONA FOR PRESIDENT"

No need to insult. If you can communicate with cockroaches, you must be one too.

Fhernando, get a treatment dude. Just because you're a failure it doesn't mean most of us are the same. You must be a acne ridden teenager for the way you write, this is not Doom or Socom where you can shoot zombies, this is the real world.

You are all under the assumption that President Bush knows anything about anything and that he has a clue about what the hell it is that Presidents do. That is how clueless I think Bush is. Let me be more succinct. Bush is dumb as a stone. A recovering drug addict. I bet you he does not even know what the hell he went there for. An empty flight suit. Bush is a patsy for a Cabal in Washington, whom the whole world should be praying never succeeds. They are nut cases.

Before you ask, I tell you whom I think has been running the USA in the last five years. The name of the President of the United States of America is Dick Cheney. Today Dick asked the Senate to make torture the law of the United States of America. Now, take that and smoke it.

To whomever was talking about a Civics lesson. You have a few things completely bass ackwards. In China, you have the opportunity to vote for A or A or if you so chose then you vote for the other A. The choices are strictly controlled by "the party." That is not democracy. Communism is a system that was conceived by Karl Marx - it is a totalizing system in that it envelops both politics and economics - and just about every other sphere for that matter. China's economy, as opposed to its political system, is moving further and further in the direction of a free market system - consider free market zones etc. as the indicator. In fact, the whole economic boom in Beijing and other major metropoles can be seen as a reflection of the success of free market reforms. There is a good reason that advertisements only depict one half a face in China - the other half is an "any-man" half that says 'you too can be successful.' Don't go giving civics lessons with shoddy examples. Social Democracy is also an entirely different idea than that which you propose - see most European countries from Sweden to France to Germany for examples.

What if both of them (Chavez and Bush) are wrong? I think that the scary part of all of this, is that both men have the capacity to appeal to very strong emotions, people either hate them or love them. Both of the seem to be in the position they are under false pretenses. Is violence the solution? I don't think so. Is creating divisions within and without the solution? Not possible. Both men take the same tacticts, and we all pay the price ... As someone said earlier, it is time for action, to take a stand and be part of change, rather than pasive watchers of history.
We need to find ways on which we all can be participants, polarization, name calling and hatred will take us no where. It has taken us no where as a planet, and there are thousands of years of history to prove it. We are all responsible, we allowed this to happen by sitting on the side lines. Let us regain our rights. Let us learn about each other, so we can have an informed opinion. Let us understand that democracy means the freedom of choice and that in order to make choices we need to be informed. Let us work, so that everyone in the world has that ability. Let us prove them both wrong!

BTW, I don't take anyone who meets with Castro seriously when it comes to providing for the good of his people. Saying that you are pro-Chavez just because you are Anti-Bush is no different than the silly games our State Department plays when we "fight terrorism." The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend! Castro has railed against the US for years while millions of his citizens have fled here seeking protection and a better life. While the US has certainly not been a benevolent neighbor, we are neither the source of all evil nor the panacea to your problems. And please note: the image of the US in the eyes of the world has declined since Bush took office - true - but it has continued a trend that merely experienced a moderate blip on 9/11. Can you imagine what the world would look like if people concentrated the energy of anti-Americanism or anti-Bushism towards change?? What a wonderful world that would be.

Salzy or whatever silly name you used to be. First you are wrong about communism - it is an economic system - Please read Karl Marx before you open your snout. Karl Marx was more of a populist and rebelled against the rapacious capitalism he saw in Europe. Communism started in ENGLAND not Russia it was merely taken by Lenin and his boys in the Bolshevik Revolutions. Jesus some of my American citizens are just too dumb and I blame the media's stupid reporting. The opposite of Communism is Capitalism and the opposite of Democracy is Monarchy!!. They are mutually exclusive and no one is purely one or the other - EVERY country is a mix of some on a sliding scale.

Now to Cuba - your stupid simplistic view of Cuba is symptomatic of the propaganda power of the US media. Did you know it was the Mafia that ruled Cuba before Castro (I guess you would prefer that) Even the Godfather movie illustrates this really well. Cuba si crippled because yes the US is the one economically boycotting it. It is not Cuba's system that makes it so - if that is the case then explain China. Cuba could have the same political/economic system and still flourish had not it EVIL neighbor to the North dedicate BILLIONS of dollars to destroy, terrorize and otherwise obliterate that country. READ your history - JEEZ. Ignorant Americans like Salzy spells the end of this great American experiment because they allow idiots like Bush to front for the CABAL.

So I guess I am supposed to have a conversation with myself, so I will. Mr. President, I suggest that you enjoy your time in Mar De La Plata. I hear it is a beautiful resort. I hope to make it there someday myself. When you come back you’ll hear that the American public is being sold on the idea that you must rid yourself of Turd Blossom. I prefer the idea that you continue to stand by him as he has stood by you. I want that, not because I care about Turd, I want to prolong my pleasure. The pleasure of seeing a man as evil as he, being tormented by the Special Prosecutor, before you finally let go of the Turd down the toilet.

...and goodnight to you all.

Nope, NV, that's my name, well the one and only one that I have chosen here. Communism did not start in England. I'll refrain from ad hominem attacks, here, but I could have placed one. Marx was born in Germany, in Trier to be exact. He went to several universities but he spent a good deal of time in Berlin studying, among other things, law. He did a good deal of writing in both Paris and in London (at the national library). I have read Marx extensively in the original German (and sometimes in English). It happens to be one of my professional areas of interest. Point is: I'm not going to trade wits with someone on this here, and such a discussion is not the place to give a "civics lesson"

Don't even try to compare China and Cuba. They are apples and oranges. Size alone ought to be enough. You have a good point that we have enforced trade rules that have harmed Cuba's economy extensively. But, you still don't address the fact that there are millions of Cubans who have chosen to jump ship for a variety of reasons. I did, in fact, "know" that Cuba was an American colony of sorts before Castro and that there were extensive Mafia interests in Cuba - as you point out 'The Godfather' is an interesting depiction. Saying that I don't like Castro does not mean I want to go back to the previous situation. As Laura points out, maybe its not an either/or situation but a 'let's choose a different one' situation.

As a note for Tom Coleman. The Washington Post did not support Bush. In fact, as you can read at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles A57584-2004Oct23.html they endorsed Kerry on 10/24/2004. Don't go attacking my precious newspaper - just an avid reader here, not affiliated with the paper - and calling her a Bushist.

Yes but Karl Marx's ideas took hold in ENGLAND the most not Germany or France (they later spread there). It was because at that time England was the biggest Superpower and its citizens suffered the most from the rapacious capitalism.

Here is my deal. I refrain from attacking Cuba's Fidel because I believe the US has got to stop meddling in other countries affairs. In terms of China vs. Cuba I was talking about the political systems. What Fidel did in Cuba was good for the Cubans. Most Cubans leave because of hardship imposed on it. If it were allowed to trade and be free most would stay. Also how do you explain Mexico and all the other South/Central American countries where all their citizens leave too? So Cuba is not a special case and Cuba is made more so because of the squeeze it is under plus the unremitting propaganda blasted it way from the both the gov't and the exiles. Infact quite a lot of the new exiles actually regret coming and realized that they were lied to once they get here. The myth that Florida is full of happy Cuban exiles is just that a myth.

I do not care what Cuba chooses for its future but I care that the US has taken it upon itself to design a new cuba complete to its educational curricula - Yes it is true!!. The last time I checked Fidel had not invaded wholesale other countries, launched wars, developed WMDs, made himself Sheriff of the World. It is like complaining about a con man when a serial killer lives right in your house.

Salzy:

Your link did not go through but I did some checking myself. You are right and I was wrong about the WaPo 2004 Kerry endorsement.

Thanks for correcting me so I will not make that mistake again!!!

RV: I'd be interested in knowing exactly what you mean by communism 'taking hold' in England?

Thank God Fidel has not taken it upon himself to invade anywhere. If only one could say the same for communism in general. Something in my memory - remember that I am supposed to be an "ignorant American" - is whispering something about missiles pointed at the United States. Blast Georgy and his cronies for trying to gut the UN.

On your comparison of exiles to other Latin American countries, it is estimated that there are at least 1 million Cuban exiles living in the United States. This, with a total population of 11 million people, ought to be quite telling. A few more stats: Cuba is 4th for per capita refugee apps in the US - and 179th on the migration rate with a significantly negative migration rate. Cudos to Castro for establishing organic agriculture - too bad his people aren't there to enjoy it :)

Socialism isn't well understood in the US. Socialism in practise is the redistribution of wealth through taxation and benefits in the pursuit of an egalitarian capitalist society.

Socialism and capitalism combine extremely well, one only has to look at the success story that Sweden (and lots of other European democracies) has been over the last century. There's no reason why it cannot be equally successful in South America.

Christianity should be about turning the other cheek. It amazes me how anyone can claim to follow christ and yet condone violence without flushing. If you are attacked you turn the other cheek, if you don't, you're not a christian and no amount of posturing will change that.

The US should have supported the south american people from the start against the hacienda owners who together with the posturing church of rome have conspired medievally to maintain feudalism over the continent.

At least Chavez is a lively speaker, well, I guess the same could be said for Hitler. But it is depressing to have a president who can't speak, has no sense of history or world events and who resorts to silence when he can't answer a question (see Kerry-Bush debate, ongoing Plame investigation). Did anyone note Chavez's suggestion for a South Atlantic Treaty Organization to counter the Southern Command's hegemony? Shades of Ché. Is the CIA still assassinating rivals?

Once again we see the radical left deftly maneuvering in the face of an ignorant and torpid U.S. foreign policy. There's definitely something to be said for a unified and motivated enemy. May God save us from ourselves...

Bush should be at the summits via teleconference because his presence is in itself an element of worlwide provocation that stirs anger.

As an Argentinian I am disgusted by the way that a guest (Bush) treated the president of my country who was hosting the event. Bush made an irritaded funny face when Ernesto K. said in his speech that each country has the right to decide the economic model to follow. As for President Chavez I can say that no head of state is capable to gather in a foreign country 40.000 people. That says much about his leadership and charisma.

My apologies Roberto, but the man has little respect and manners for anyone who doesn't fit into his little scenario...

His Presidency brings out a lot of hatefulness in the extreme right, they cannot or refuse to give civilize debates.

However, this man really think he knows what he is doing in office, the only legacy he will leave is he tilted the courts to the right - which is not a good thing we wanted justice to be balanced.

Don't expect an apology either, one thing we learned is that this man doesn't apologize.

All of this started in 2000 - When the American PEOPLE let the Supreme Court pick our President. And now he gets to pick the Supreme Court ----VERY DANGEROUS COMBINATION!!!!!!!!!

I am an american who has been living in Argentina for 9 years and I am appalled when I hear americans say that the U.S. is a free, democratic country. It used to be...in the past. It is not anymore. From the moment our president refused to obey international legislation and resort to low, inhumane strategies we lost our place in the world as a free, democratic country. Some people may not see it, but it has not only affected the U.S. in the world. It has also affected the U.S. at home. Chavez (and everyone who will tag along) resisting these and other abusive policies, very typical of a bully, deserve my utter respect. Wake up people!

Roberto-

Thank you for the correct count our newspaper had 10,000 and 20,000 - that's another thing, we don't trust the newspaper over here anymore much either!

I'm not sure who voted for Bush, but he's made demagogues and hypocrites like Chavez and Maradona look like saints. We're seriously hurting!!!

No one knows who voted for Bush, if indeed anyone did. Remember this: the esteemed Jimmy Carter witnessed the Venezuelan election of Hugo Chavez as an international observer. He was able to certify that election. The same Jimmy Carter observed the election of 2000 in the US. He was not able to certify that election. Now, who is the democratically elected president? Certainly not Bush. He cannot bring democracy to anywhere. He has erased it from his own country.

was 2004 invalid, as well? Just asking...

Yep! I said "not proven but invalid just the same. Those touch-screen voting machines with no paper was put out there for a reason...

Now for all we say about Bush I tell you this he didn't know much about either of these two scams of him winning through "Cheater-Proof".

Nov 2000 -
Take for instant he call to concede to Gore in 2000 (then he retracked on advise of Cheeney, Bro' Bush and Rove (no doubt)

Nov 2004 -
Just before the Nov 04 election, he was going around the White House telling people you best tell me what you need now, I may not be here next year.

So, see this was a tyypical story of a few greedy people who wanted to impose they sick belief of conquering the mid-east oil however, they know American are possess with looks and chrisma when it come to electing official -

So they throw their golden boy out there and a lot of moderated republicans took the bait that's why it went all the way down to the wire.....

However, like Fitzgerald said if he could had he would had wrapped this up in Oct of 2004 - not Oct of 2005

October 2004 hhhmmmmmmm....November 2004 was election time, wasn't it???

Those of us in South America, especially here in Brasil, who favour turning our nations away from the American model can only feel gratitude toward Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney. These men have swung mainstream public opinion over on to our side and we on the left are now winning the political battles throughout the hemisphere. Gracias, George. You've done for us what Fidel was never able to do!

Muito obrigado aos Republicanos Americanos de ter reorientado a opiniao publica latinoamericana a favor da esquerda e contra a hegemonia e a intolerancia americanas.

Can somebody help me out here? I am a college student doing research on Argentina and the Summit for a paper and I am in need of objective, unbiased reports. I was sick to my stomach when I look at the Times today (Nov. 5th) and saw how lopsided the article was. If I had no other information, the article presented the Chavez rally as "peaceful" demonstrations, while the summit was met with violent resistance and massive looting in the streets. I want to be as objective as possible, put my beliefs aside and find what the facts of the matter out. I respect all your opinions, while I might not agree with everything. You are all really helpful in engaging discussion on a topic that I would like to learn more about. Any help would be great. Let me finish by saying how sick it made me to watch our Stars and Stripes be burned in the streets in Argentina, plastered with swastikas. The comparison enrages me. The Bush administration, for all its failures and successes deserves more respect than being put on the same level as a monster like Hitler, the likes of which history may never see again. I, for one, love my country and while I do not agree with everything that we do, I stand firmly behind it as an American. Thank you all again for really giving me a lot of information and perspective.

Dear Brian,
The problem with America is people like you, who love your country, are enraged when people demonstrate against it and who obstinately fail to grasp what drives so many people the world over to express such anger toward your country and its crimes. The rally Chavez addressed WAS peaceful; the rioting was done by unconnected fringe groups. The sentiments expressed at the Chavez rally ARE the sentiments of mainstream Latin America. Bush is hated, and now your country is hated too, because of the many crimes his administration has committed -- lying to rally support for an illegal "pre-emptive" war, thumbing his nose at international law, violating sacrosanct international treaties on torture and global warming... Elect a government that treats the world with a modicum of respect for the rest of the world and your country will be respected. Until then, your country will continue to be hated, and for good cause.
Yours sincerely,
Jose de Oliveira

I can't believe how naive/ignorant some of you are about what is happening in Venezuela. Chavez is a psycho case who thinks he is the reincarnation of Simon Bolivar. His pockets are stuffed with petro dollars thanks to all of you who gas up at Citgo and the deals he is cutting with the oil lobby in Washington. What is he using these dollars for? To buy up the loyalty and consciences of too many people around this world who could give a flying f about the Venezuelan people. Believe me I know what I am talking about. Social responsability? Getting the poor and ignorant out of their plight? POR FAVOR!! This is the most corrupt government in the country's 40 year history of democracy. Who am I to make such statements? I am an American citizen who worked hard for 30 years in Vzla, only to find myself self-exiled back in the U.S. out of fear for what is going to happen in this castro-communist regime.

Thanks NY for the civics refresher lesson although it was my way to point out an inherent flaw in the way it's applied since economic systems are generaly diluted and never used in its purist form. Even the US, on a certain level, is a Welfare State. And given your definition of democracy, "A democracy is a political system where citizens elect their representatives", Al Gore should have been President in the 2000 election.