France's Left and Right Debate Riots' Causes

Ten days of intensifying riots in Muslim-dominated suburbs of Paris and other cities has left France shaken and divided. The toll is evident in the French online media.

"A country which prides itself as the fatherland of the humans right and the sanctuary of a generous social model shows, in the eyes of all, that it is incapable of ensuring dignified living conditions for young French people," said the editors of Le Monde (in French).

"Nothing has deterred the gangs from running rampage. Not calls for calm, not marches for peace. Not even thousands of extra police," says the English-language Euronews

The explosion of violence has split both the public and the political classes.

The comment of hardline Interior Minister Nicholas Sarkozy that the rioters were "scum" prompted to Socialist Party leader Francois Hollande to tell Liberation, a left-wing daily, that he had "zero tolerance" for Sarkozy and his "simplistic polemics."

An online, and therefore unscientific, survey in Le Monde found 51 percent of 11,000 respondents thought Sarkozy's language was unjustified. Forty five percent thought it justified.

Jean Francois Mattei, writing in the conservative daily Le Figaro said the violence is rooted in irresponsibility embodied by a kind of "linguistic treason."

"In France one no longer speak of 'riots' but of 'actions of harassment': not of 'delinquents' but 'youth;' not of 'police,' but 'provocateurs;' not of 'drug trafficking,' but 'the parallel economy,'" he wrote.

But the editors of Le Monde argued the continuing burning of cars and sacking of public buildings is proof that the conservative government's "zero-tolerance" policies have failed just as much as the liberal policies of the previous left-wing government. The state, they wrote, is "impotent."

Back in the Post's pages, Molly Moore writes that the rioting "underscores the chasm between the fastest growing segment of France's population and the staid political hierarchy that has been inept at responding to societal shifts. The youths rampaging through France's poorest neighborhoods are the French-born children of African and Arab immigrants, the most neglected of the country's citizens. A large percentage are members of the Muslim community that accounts for about 10 percent of France's 60 million people."

By Jefferson Morley |  November 6, 2005; 1:25 PM ET  | Category:  Europe
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52% of the respondents think that ctriticizing N. Sarkozy for his comment was justified,not that his comment was justified.

Posted by: | November 6, 2005 03:03 PM

François Hollande is a man, not a woman. His wife, Ségolène Royal, is also prominent in the Socialist Party.

m morley

Posted by: m morley | November 6, 2005 03:20 PM

First of all as said Rr. Holla

Posted by: Bruneton M. | November 6, 2005 04:01 PM

First of all get your facts straight ... Mr. Holland is a leader of the opposite party of Mr. Chirac, (he is Male )and secondly, as in all truly free countries there is social unrest when people of any color or religion feel treated unfairly. That doesn't mean that there is rioting all over France or that social unrest is racing all over the country...Is this a way to say look at France and overblowing what is happening, rather than looking at what is happening in the USA?

Posted by: Bruneton M. | November 6, 2005 04:14 PM

The liberals in France are finally getting what they deserve. Appeasement to the "it's alway somebody else's fault that we are poor"way of thinking is always going to be a problem. You give half of your portion to them and they will want all of it

Posted by: godsaveamerica | November 6, 2005 04:39 PM

Racism and Prejudice was, is, and always will be a part of life. I have come to accept this. However, when it comes my way, I have learned not to take it on as my problem, but that of the beholder, so I ask God for serenity and even say a prayer of "forgiveness" for the ill-advised.

Nevertheless, I cannot find any solace in the practice of 'destruction' so that my voice could be heard. I know I saw it happen when Martin Luther King died, and I saw it when a jury of "whites" founded the policemen innocent in the beating of Rodney King.

Yes,the scales of justice and opportunity is unbalanced and it anger you so much that sometimes you ball yourself up in a fetus position and cry from the bottom of your soul and keep repeation Why? Why? Why do people hate so much?

If you are of a minority race than you will understand what I am saying. If you are like "godsaveamerica" than you will understand why Rome rule the earlier days.

Two wrongs never make a right. You should not use force to make someone see the errant of their ways, it has been proven time and time again, the results always has the opposite effect of what you were trying to establish.

Stop burning the towns in which you live in but build a unified organization and representation to address your issues and concerns.

You don't have to be a so call conservative christian to know in your heart that God loves all living things he knows your pain and he will never give you more than you can bear.

Posted by: DeeDee | November 6, 2005 08:10 PM

Why does not Mr. Chirac now apply the same 'negotiation tactics' to the those who riot in various parts of his country that he demanded of the US government regarding the world terrorists?

Posted by: S. P. Schmidt | November 6, 2005 08:49 PM

I have read many articles detailing the riots that are occuring in France, but I still have not yet come to grasp with what exactly it is that the rioters are angry about. They say things along the lines of "we don't get equal opportunities." What opportunities are they referring to? All I have seen in general statements with no specific examples.

If France (or any city in France) has instituted laws that explicitly deny Muslims certain privledges (such as requiring them to sit in the back of the bus ala America in the 50s), then I would understand the reason for the riots. But this is not the case.

If the two youth that were electrocuted were the victims of police brutality (such as the Rodney King beating), then I would expect something like the race riots. However, most reports describe this merely as a horrible accident.

I repeatedly see quotes from Mulsim youth interviewed in France such as: "They won't listen to us. The only way they will hear us is if we burn things." What exactly do you want heard? If you say something more specific than "we don't get equal opportunities," maybe your voice will get heard.

Posted by: JR | November 6, 2005 09:25 PM

Appalling that you can't even get François Hollande's gender correct.

Posted by: Gregory Holman | November 6, 2005 10:05 PM

The main problem seems to be one of poverty rather than active discrimination, though France has always had a worryingly popular racist political group.

Most of the members of the community where the rioters come from condemn the action. Muslim leaders have issued fatwas against it for instance.

The poverty of these groups leads to hopelessness and that leads to the rioting from a small, but still significant, number. The left has failed over the years to look after these people the way their ideals say they should.

If it says anything it's that ghettos must never be allowed to develop. That immigrants must be integrated fully into their new country (which doesn't mean they have to lose their cultural identity of course).

Posted by: David Patrick, UK | November 7, 2005 05:58 AM

I apologize for Francoise Hollande typo. Thanks to all for correcting me.

Posted by: Jefferson Morley | November 7, 2005 07:18 AM

There's a reason EuroDisney's in France.

Posted by: Jerry Lewis | November 7, 2005 08:21 AM

When the house is on fire you do not discuss redecorating it ...the rioting has to be suppressed by any means necessary and those who commit acts of violence, when possible, punished. Perhaps the army should be used...I don't care where they (rioters) were born...does a "citizen" burn his own country and attack his fellow citizens?

Posted by: Brian | November 7, 2005 09:55 AM

Well, yes they do.

The rioting needs to be brought under control before any meaningful attempt can be made to fix the situation. Though you do have to be careful how you try to subdue the rioting or you'll actually spark more of it rather than stopping it.

Getting the army involved is a step too far at the moment.

Posted by: David Patrick, UK | November 7, 2005 10:19 AM

I agree with Brian -- the rioting must be suppressed. And, to Bruneton: if these same events were happening in Washington, D.C. (20 school buses burned, *people* being pulled off buses and burned alive, night after night of arson and looting, etc.), I guarantee you it would be THE front-page story of every newspaper in the U.S., THE lead on every broadcast, THE subject in every blog. This is not just some sort of "business as usual" happening; this is a travesty of the highest order. And it would be extremely difficult for major, uncontrolled rioting/arson/looting in the capital city of one of the world's most powerful nations to ever be an "overblown" story.

At the moment, France's ability to project power and France's economy are still in the top 5 of all countries worldwide -- and they're likely to stay that way. No, France does not truly rival the U.S., but that doesn't make it some insignificant backwater. Further, for us in the U.S., France is still an ally (no matter how much schadenfreude some of my compatriots might feel). France has been incredibly helpful to the U.S. in our war on terror -- mainly because France has the Middle Eastern/Arabic experience we lack. Our intelligence agencies regularly look to France for assistance; we would be in much worse shape were it not for our French allies. So, what happens in Paris directly affects those of us who value the U.S.

I'm not sure exactly what the causes are of all this rioting; I can only think that it's more than just "poverty," because, no matter how bad things are in the "ghettos" of Paris, they're far, far better there than, say, conditions in the slums of Jakarta. It appears to have devolved into a purely mob mentality, with no real grievance or objective other than, "We want to burn stuff, and we will." Trust me: the poor of most of the world would give their front teeth to live in what passes for "substandard" conditions in Paris -- much as Pakistan would have loved to have had America's problems in Katrina instead of its own problems with the Earthquake.

The rioting must be suppressed; the French must be supported; and, at least for this American, it gives me no pleasure at all to see one of our allies suffer like this.

Posted by: Thomas Wicker, NC, USA | November 7, 2005 10:25 AM

Integrated fully would mean trying to be french, not trying to live in france and still pretend you are from a) country and just happen to stay there. Most immigrants fail to immigrate because they hang on to thier culture too rigidly and refuse to be "integrated". If you move somewhere and you want to succeed, you have to integrate yourself, you have to become of that place. Asking anyone to bend over and cater to an outsider will never work.

Posted by: Joe | November 7, 2005 10:28 AM

As a Frenchman, I can tell you now that Americans were right since the beginning of their multiracial experience. The main problem lies in IQ and the Bell Curve and only a little part in "social tensions".

Posted by: Un Français qui a ouvert les yeux | November 7, 2005 10:34 AM

As a Frenchman, I can tell you now that Americans were right since the beginning of their multiracial experience. The main problem lies in IQ and the Bell Curve and only a little part in "social tensions".

Posted by: Un Français qui a ouvert les yeux | November 7, 2005 10:34 AM

I can understand the anger and frustration that the rioters feel. They are rioting because they don't have any other recourse. We can talk about equality all we want but the truth of the matter, it that it does not exist. You can control policies but you cannot control how a person behaves.

In Brown vs. The board of education, we saw the fallicy involved in the "separate but equal" belief and even today in America you can see the differences in quality between inner city schools and schools located in the well to do towns. In order to receive a quality education, I had to enroll in a busing program where I had to get up every morning at 5am and go to a school; an hour and half away from where I lived. The difference here is that I was given that OPPORTUNITY to seek better schools and the state provided the means to go to these schools.

When I read about France's policy on race where being "color blind", as an African American; I can't help but laugh. Color is part of who we are and what we are, government policies will not change that. What is needed is education regarding the different cultures and EQUAL OPPORTUNITY.

Posted by: Ike | November 7, 2005 10:36 AM

Memo to French Police:

Hey guys, I've been reading the papers. Boy, that sucks. You guys are getting your asses handed to you and your leaders sit and wring their hands.

My question is, you all are police right? I assume you have armaments other than the ol' skull cracker at your disposal?

They're called guns. You use them when people are trying to kill you. A few corpses speak louder than five volumes of Le Monde.

Posted by: VinceTheVice | November 7, 2005 10:50 AM

I've been very frustrated by the reporting of these riots here in the USA.

So far as I can tell, the cops were chasing some kids and they met with a horrible accident--electrocution on some power transformers. This has become a "flashpoint" of some pent-up anger from the kids' community and the reaction has been rioting--but not only that, rioting that is spreading across France to other immigrant communities? And the French authorities seemed to rely more on force than dialog--and that's backfiring too?

So how bad are things in France for immigrants of color? Where are the stories about that? What about French racism? Also, are there no leaders in the immigrant community in France?

Believe me, if these riots were to take place in the American South, there would be no shortage of investigation and analysis.

Posted by: Tony in North Carolina | November 7, 2005 10:57 AM

Looks like the French got themselves into a quagmire. The problem is obviously the French unilateralism with respect to the riots. It's time for them to withdraw and let the U.N. take over.

The question is: why is France so ill-prepared? Chirac knew there were problems, yet never did anything to prepare! How is it that France - the most civilized country in the world - ends up with a society that looks like Darfur? France is a very rich country, and yet poverty and unemployment in the ghettos are at third-world levels.

These must be terrible days for Chirac - he seems beset on all sides. Unemployment at horrific levels, major corruption scandals, his friend Gerhard Schroder being tossed out of office, and now this. How bad can it get for him?

Posted by: A.S. | November 7, 2005 11:00 AM

Sarkosy's comments about the youth being scums ("racaille" in french) were in response to a question a lady asked him while he was touring a damaged aera. That person asked him what he planned to do to stop the scums that were burning cars, he responded that he was going to take care of those scums...that's it...and then the media reported only half the truth...
The biggest problem is that there is some political feud between the Chirac-Villepin couple and Sarko. That's why the french governement is so slow in reacting to the riots. They (Chirac-Villepin) want to put all the burden on Sarko's back. But now it went to far, and Chirac started to react by addressing the nation yesterday, 10 days after the riot started!!! A man died from his wounds...he was lynched last Friday by the rioters...and now the riots are spreading to other european countries (belgium last night!)...Clearly the way I see it is that the army and curfews are needed now! This can't go on like this every night!!!!Act now!
A concerned french citizen from California

Posted by: adp | November 7, 2005 11:00 AM

It has to be remembered that the vast majority of these deprived immigrant areas aren't rioting and are appalled by it.

Sure, their living conditions are much better than the countries they came from. Though going by a BBC news item I saw yesterday where they were talking to some of the youths behind the violence they've spent most if not all of their lives in France, yet don't feel French or that the normal opportunities open to French people are there for them. They don't see much of a future for themselves stuck in the same deprived areas for the rest of their lives.

The reason for the riots run much deeper than the events that triggered them off. The rioting must be brought under control, but then must begin a vast effort to integrate and help these communities which up till now have been just left to rot. Dialog with the actual rioters (rather than the whole communities they're a part of) is effectively impossible. The violence needs to be contained first, only then can the repair work begin.

I suspect there will be a lot of investigation and analysis going on in the French press in the next few weeks and months.

Posted by: David Patrick, UK | November 7, 2005 11:11 AM

The most interesting feature of this story is the deep need of French citizens and newspapers to underplay what is happening. It seems clear that they've taken to heart some smug image of themselves as a place where their generous social benefits programs will preclude social unrest. And now when the truth is staring them in the face, they try to deny the reality which is plain for all to see.

France quite obviously finds itself much more comfortable commenting smugly upon America's problems than solving their own. For this reason, these recent events have caused no small amount of satisfaction here in the US, just as the Europeans enjoyed disparaging the US after the New Orleans riots.

The difference is that what happened in New Orleans had a very good extrinsic reason- an unprecedented natural calamity which caused law and order to break down for a few days. What is happening in France had no such external event to speak of (the incident involving the two youths is the kind of thing that happens everywhere).

Moreover, these events are even more serious than what happened in 1968 because the Arab rioters won't be placated by adopting a new political stance. This is part of a struggle of civilizations and France will be paying dearly forever for its foolish actions in allowing the families of guest workers to immigrate in the late 60s and early 70s.

Posted by: Jason Adamson | November 7, 2005 11:35 AM

Multi-culturalism has crippled France and Europe's instinct for survival. You didn't need a crystal ball to see that what happened in London would spread to the rest of the EU. Now Le Pen, Haider, and the BNP can rightfully say, "we told you so".

Posted by: erik vilius | November 7, 2005 11:37 AM

multiculturalism did what? isn't the US multicultural? we're not having riots. No country can survive by being insular and isolationist - unfortunatly, it seems that France has attempted to retain this "core" while seemingly welcoming thousands of immigrants.

My experience in France was one of nationalism and sexism. Essentially, France is now at least partially paying the piper for the hundreds of years spent exploiting the African content and its people.

How to stop it? Good question - how do Americans stop riots? They'll do the opposite, as usual.

Posted by: suze | November 7, 2005 11:51 AM

Such widespread civil unrest like we are seeing in France bears the stamp of agents provocateurs, probably from the US, seeking to distract its most vocal critics (France, EU) at a time when the Bush Admin is struggling to hold its fuselage together. Since 9/11 everyone has been tiptoeing around the obvious. Aren't we all tired of trotting out the "aceeptable" explanations? Let's call a spade a spade and have a REAL public dialogue for the first time since 9/11.

Posted by: cornelius naso | November 7, 2005 12:03 PM

I told you so! France should have never allowed Muslims into the country. But it is really deeper than that. As an ex-imperial power France allowed -- as did Britain, Holland and other imperial countries -- their colonials to come to the motherland. Now they pay the price. Europe will be submerged by the Muslims and the results of the Crusades and the Habsburg offensive vs. the Ottomans will be reversed. The muzzeins will be chanting soon from Rome, Paris, and Madrid.

Posted by: candide | November 7, 2005 12:04 PM

"Such widespread civil unrest like we are seeing in France bears the stamp of agents provocateurs, probably from the US"

Absolutely brilliant! I just KNEW someone would find an angle to blame this on the US. And everyone knows just how much influence we have on young Arabs who were born and raised (and sent to ghettos) in France.

This is easily the most entertaining news story of the year so far, primarily because it forces those who just love to criticise the US to look at quite serious problems in their own back yard. And for their reaction to STILL be to blame this on the US, why that is just priceless! I'm going to cook some popcorn and wait for tonight's riots- getting dark in gay Paris now.

Posted by: Jason Adamson | November 7, 2005 12:16 PM

Ok, lets get down to what this really is... France is experiencing a fresh dose of the radical Islam that France has been condemning America for combatting! These "muslim youth" are TERRORISTS!!! Who else burns houses and cars, and commits acts of violence to "get there voice heard"?! Wake up France, you'll find that Mr. Bush was right all along, and that you have been wrong all along!

Posted by: Todd Whitford | November 7, 2005 12:23 PM

I was surprised that the A.P. got the root cause correct: lack of fathers in the home of the immigrants due to French divorce laws which favor the mother - thus encouraging the fathers to leave their family with no moral underpinnings - and no role models for their young sons.

Posted by: R Biddulph | November 7, 2005 12:24 PM

It is depressing to see that no social model in any part of the world seems to be able to integrate different races properly - and that includes the US the UK and France in the west and everywhere else too. Perhaps a melting-pot will never work and we should all be in a country where we will uphold its own culture and stop trying to mix cultures. It clearly doesn't work.

Posted by: Terry | November 7, 2005 12:25 PM

Why not read what the French scholar of Islam Andre Servier said about the Musulman in his book Islam and the Psychology of the Musulman. Written in 1922 it is now online at

musulmanbook . blogspot . com

Take out the spaces after copying the above into the address field on your browser.


MusulmanBook

If you believe everyone in the media and the 'expert' profession today suffer from political correctness, why not go back to the turn of the century and see what the French scholars of Islam said about Muslim and immigrations.

He warned the French government repeatedly in the early 1900s, but was ignored in the end.

Posted by: John Sobieski | November 7, 2005 12:26 PM

PS Bush has never been right about anything unless it's by accident. He's a dangerous buffoon. Roll on 2009!

Posted by: Terry | November 7, 2005 12:26 PM

wow muslims making big headlines here in france.....

you rarely get this kinda coverage when the neonazi's in france are harming the jewish community.....jews are leaving fast and going back to Berlin (130,000 of them so far have returned to berlin but not just from france)

i agree - shouldn't have let all those muslims in well over 25+ years ago, remember seeing them in Marseille port all in their sheets/turbans back in 1980....aggressive scary looking dudes

america is now letting them in too and watch in 20 years what happens there....sad state of affairs once ALL the muslims take over the world - BEFORE CHINA takes over the world.......

Posted by: | November 7, 2005 12:27 PM

TO TERRY: IT WORKS PRETTY GOOD IN NYC AND MIAMI (the melting pots)

Posted by: | November 7, 2005 12:30 PM

Personally, I think that the French government should publicly announce a data and time - after which rioters, arsonists, and looters will be shot on the spot.

If a few hundred of the rioters are summarily killed - and it is well known that the government will kill as many as necessary - the rioting will stop.

Also - I pity the poor average French person trying to defend his home and car - with a leftist government that has largely succeeded in taking his guns away. If this were tried in most of the southern US, us rednecks would eliminate the source of the problem. Loved the sign in rural Louisana - Drunks with Guns - you loot, we shoot!

Posted by: Jim | November 7, 2005 12:31 PM

Interesting that Sarkozy, early after the riots started, mentioned that the muslim's needed their own culture and Hollande later to this comment that this idea "was too dangerous".

Posted by: K.J.B. | November 7, 2005 12:33 PM

"I'm going to cook some popcorn and wait for tonight's riots- getting dark in gay Paris now."

hmm. I wonder why they criticize us . . .

Posted by: Ted Koterwas | November 7, 2005 12:34 PM

More proof that socialism causes more poverty. Neither does zero tolerance.

People forget that economic freedom is just as important as personal and social freedom.

Jean Francois Mattei is probably the most correct. His comments sound almost as though he is speaking of America. In the US both the major parties have failed us miserably. I am waiting for worse than rioting to occur here, as the effects of failed government policies, from both the left and the right, culminate into a hopeless mess.

Hopeless, that is, unless the Republicans and Democrats are dismantled, giving way to new parties, like the Libertarians, Greens, or Constitution parties.

Posted by: Wendy | November 7, 2005 12:37 PM

The rioters are hurting their own community as much as anything.

Like the Palestinian suicide bombers, with every act of violence, they further cement the hopelessness they are supposedly protesting.

For example, show me a bottle of medicine, or an elementary school in Palestine produced by a blown-up Israeli bus.

Posted by: Herbie | November 7, 2005 12:37 PM

Tony in North Carolina expresses some of my sentiments. I think the best coverage of the riots was in this article that appeared on ZNET:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=74&ItemID=9066

I find it laughable that somehow at least one of the posters blames this on American liberalism. What it does have in common with Americans is that these kids are looking "to be treated as everyone else," as in our still uncompleted Civil Rights movement, not to be called subhuman scum as Interior Minister Sarkozy has in France.

Rosa Parks search to be treated as just "a normal person" has more to do with these kids motivation than some crackpot Law and Order diatribe. Of course this type of demagogic talk works very well among political demagogues, both in Europe and America. There's always a market for bigotry and to project all sorts of things on "the other."

It's time for people to developmentally grow up, not to condone violence, but to eschew knee-jerk simple answers, and do some soul searching.

Posted by: Jeff | November 7, 2005 12:38 PM

In the words of Dennis Miller,
calling them "scum" is an insult to bags filled with scum.

Posted by: Jonah J. | November 7, 2005 12:43 PM

Attempting to blame riots caused by internal pressures and cultural clashes on the US as a way to distract from Bush administration troubles, is rather immature. Besides, the US has always paid more attention to itself than to the outside world in the way of news, so this tactic would gain marginal success at best. As an American, I'm no fan of our current government, who has stripped more of our liberties and taken us closer to a police state than our nation has ever been. However, to try to throw off France's problems on our current regime is stretching things.

I think candide's post is much closer to the source of France's problems. Attitudes like that among cultures do more to create divisions than any government policy, and take much more than government policy to neutralize. Take it from someone who remembers, in a nation that's been there not too long ago.

Posted by: Derek | November 7, 2005 12:43 PM

Over hundreds of thousands of years humans evolved in homogeneous tribal settings. That has been a successful social model and tribalism is deeply rooted in the human species.

Misguided liberals fail to understand the origin of tribalism. They harbor visions of unnatural cross-cultural togetherness and that has resulted in France admitting millions of Islamic Arabs into their country. Now France is dealing with the inevitable result of that ill-conceived social experiment.

The violence will not cease until massive force is used to quell it. The view that the rioters are only disadvantage youths will only cause the problems to escalate.

Posted by: Hector Pearce | November 7, 2005 12:49 PM

Obviously Bush isn't doing this directly. But his refusal to implement Kyoto and the ICC is obviously the cause of the riots. Also, the illegal invasion of Iraq. Bush lied, France rioted!

Posted by: A.S. | November 7, 2005 12:52 PM

I don't quite see the connection. A.S., please explain how the US not entering into Kyoto (which is in force without our participation) and opposition to the ICC caused France's riots.

Posted by: Derek | November 7, 2005 01:03 PM

Rather then force, France should follow it's foreign policies and sit down and have a political dialog with the rioters.

Posted by: non-Parisian | November 7, 2005 01:05 PM

To the critics of my claim that the civil unrest in France bears the stamp of agents provocateurs: Fomentation is as old as dirt and ubiquitous in the more discreet Machiavellian wing of US foreign policy. To deny that the US supports and provokes unrest around the world is a failure to grasp one of the oldest and most prevalent ("divide and conquer") rules in the book. Any dialogue that "pretends" this sort of thing doesn't exist or "exempts" the US from such practices is a clear departure from historical patterns and practices.

Posted by: cornelius naso | November 7, 2005 01:16 PM

For every American on this board, just get used to the world blaming everything on us.

No doubt the Tsunami, the earthquakes, the hurricanes, tropical deforestation, all poverty, all hatred, all bigotry, all crime, and all evil comes from the U.S.

Oh yeah, and you can toss in all medical ailments, diseases, birth defects, and cancer.

Everyone else, feel free to toss in other stuff that is our fault.

Posted by: McBob | November 7, 2005 01:24 PM

[To A.S. and all others supporting these terrorists]
Give me a break!
Why blame Bush for what the muslim youth in France are doing?!?! They should be fully held responsible for THEIR OWN actions. Just because they (and obviously you) don't agree with him, doesn't mean that they have the right to commit acts of terrorism. The attempts by liberals to pass off there own misdoings onto George Bush is absolutely senseless, and very childish. GROW UP! Not everyone is and will agree with you!

Posted by: Todd Whitford | November 7, 2005 01:32 PM

Well, as a French who gew up in a "banlieue" (but that turned out rather well, because it was not a complete architectural failure, and right from the start it was a mixed of owners and renters), I can only say two things:
- All of these rioters are under 25 and it is too bad they are not politically driven (farmers and fishermen also burn stuff - like the XVIIth century Parlement de Bretagne in 1994 - but they have political demands). The youths should chop some heads in the center of Paris instead, but I doubt they ever learnt their History lessons at school.
- If this continues for another week, the political backlash will be :
* Kiss bye-bye to the Doha round, Chirac can not afford another riot, from farmers this time, especially since they are very good at it. So he will veto the EU's position - he can - and without the EU there won't be any agreement. That will be quite popular.
* Turkey can forget about the EU, France will veto that ANYTIME (this will not only affect Europe, but also the US)
* J-M Le Pen may get 20 - 25% of the vote in 2007, and if one of the silly Trostkytes can edge any other candidates, the 2nd round between extreme right and left can trigger a pretty ugly chain reaction, because I don't know who'd win. And since a lot of voters of the FN are "Pieds Noirs" who got kicked out of Algeria in 1962 after 3 or 4 generations there, they are not the least troubled by doing the same to the grand-children of those who did that to them...
Then, maybe like in 1961, the military would think it has a say in all that...

But then again, these rioters are just kids, so maybe everything will stop once school resumes (although I doubt it)

Posted by: Gemini | November 7, 2005 01:37 PM

Sorry for posting these 3 times, it ended as a server error twice...

Posted by: Gemini | November 7, 2005 01:42 PM

[to PRLITE]
Exactly my point! And all this is in the name of the "peaceful" religion, Islam!

Once again, more proof that Jesus is the ONLY way!

Posted by: Todd Whitford | November 7, 2005 01:45 PM

If it was up to me, I would just wipe Islam from the face of this Earth. I am so incredibly tired of hearing what a "religion of peace" it is. It isn't - it is a religon of hate. That is pretty obvious.

And to all of the "disenfranchised" SCUM that is rioting in France - get over. And if you don't like, then go back to the countries you parents immigrated from so you won't be so flipping "disenfranchised".

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

Posted by: Chris | November 7, 2005 01:46 PM

Just curious...which US or other foreign president caused the French revolution?

Posted by: non-Parisian | November 7, 2005 01:49 PM

It seems that the predictable response by Monsieur Chirac to all the current French woes is: first hide... then negotiate... then run and if all this proves unsuccesful - SURRENDER - and finally...pompously lecture everyone else about the superior French model!

He does all this rather well. Well - he is French after all!

Posted by: Britt | November 7, 2005 02:10 PM

Cornelius, if it is an American doing this as you seem to be convinced, then it must be a Muslim American.

Posted by: Jay | November 7, 2005 02:18 PM

Muslims generally do not want to intergrate. They want to stay together and when they become a force, then take over. They don't want equality, they want superiority!!!

Posted by: Jay | November 7, 2005 02:21 PM

Gosh PRLITE, I hope you're joking. If you aren't, though, you sound an awful lot like the very enemies that you want to 'exterminate'. Change a couple of the names, and your diatribe could have been written by a Nazi (except he'd know it was "Sieg", not "Seig") or by the most radical Salafist Islamists.

Posted by: Beren | November 7, 2005 02:32 PM

For all those readers who are saying that this would be totally different in the US:

- New Jersey riots
- LA riots
- Detroit riots
- Chicago riots

Pot, meet kettle.

Posted by: Andy | November 7, 2005 02:50 PM

You know, there's a difference between "blaming Bush and/or the US for everything" (conservative simpletons' view of liberal critique) and acknowledging that US intelligence agencies do infiltrate ethnic/revolutionary groups around the world to destabilize govts ("keep your friends close, your enemies closer" "divide and conquer").

In a situation like the rioting in France, no 'infiltration' is even neccessary for the US to act as agent provocateur: simply send some contract people out to set fire to some extra cars, and you 1) help create a spectacle that keeps Rove's lies, Bush's failure in South America, and the CIA black prisons OFF the front pages of the EU press, and 2) helps to represent young Muslims as a threat to middle-class Europeans. Mission accomplished.

Posted by: Cornelius Naso | November 7, 2005 03:51 PM

Hi, we are 2 french teens and we want to explain our viewpoint.
(first sorry about our bad english)
I live in Rennes and my friend near Paris at Corbeil-Essones. Many cars have burned in our cities. The problems of the blocks are not new, there has long been problems of violences. The voicelessness of the politicians for 30 years has been one of the principal reasons. The death of the 2 teens at Clichy-Sous-Bois was a detonator of a bomb that has been sleeping ..We agree that revolt is understandable but we do not agree with the many destructions.

Nicolas Sarkozy is a pillier of the revolte, his [comments] are not correct for a minister.

In any ghettos, the riots are a result of police's provocations. For example near Juyn's home, too many CRS (riot police) are circling a ghetto that was outside any violence and the consequence was a very violent protest. For many it's a competition between ghetto-city about who can burn the most of cars...

And Islamists groups are NOT behind this riots...even if a "lacrymogene bomb" (we don't find any translation;) was thrown in a mosque at Aulnay-sous-Bois those who rebel are young and that was a factor who launch others riots in the others town out of Paris...

For young people, in France, the French Government is bad! We can only see since us birth "misery" and hatred of teens! Policeman and old people hate teens and assume this viewpoint. The national news says teens are bad .... Many month ago, a big non violent protest was created by students against the government and Fillon's laws, but this protest of 120 000 teens, and more of teachers was without repercussions on the policy of the government...So we are not surprised that any younth break laws, even we think it s not the good solution...

if you want to contact us : balistik35@free.fr
http://balistik35.free.fr
http://juyn89.free.fr

Posted by: Juyn & Balistik | November 7, 2005 04:08 PM

I suppose that Bush is also at fault for the high unemployment - 3 to 4 times higher than the rest of the country, low wages and racial discrimination and despair. Yeah, blame it on Bush, and see were that's going to take you. Never look for solutions, just keep mudding the issues, Mr. Cornelius Naso.

Posted by: non-Parisian | November 7, 2005 04:25 PM

I love Mr. Morley's message boards. There's never a shortage of people with more opinions than brain cells on this thing.

My question is this: Why make such a broad generalization about Muslims in general? Another question: Why blame the USA for an internal problem in France? I find it quite humourous that a lot of you people whine that the U.S. gets blamed for everything while simultaneously you blame an entire religion for the riots in France!!

Use your brains and get off your high horse, your religion was never any better. Just look at what the Crusades tried to accomplish. Hopefully you still don't think it was for a noble cause. Stop being so racist, do some soul searching, and then ask if your "creator" (whatever that is) would ever condone your behaviour.

France's rioting problems ARE NOT caused by G.W Bush, the U.S., Muslims, Democrats, Republicans, the Kyoto treaty (by the way, the original poster was using an ancient technique called SARCASM, yes it was dripping), any more than they were caused by Aliens, Santa, Elvis, or Napoleon himself coming back from the grave.

France's problems are directly related to the socio-economic status of that region. Some of the people are poor, are being shut out from day-to-day life, and are facing oppression from the elite class. And whenever there is a large disparity between two classes, the lower class will always become disgruntled.

Simply put, France's problem is an internal issue best left for them to decide and act upon and not for us to sit there and make racist comments about Muslims or bring up conspiracy theories about the USA. And certainly we shouldn't be using this to promote religion or political parties.

This riot has nothing to do with those two boys who were electrocuted. These communities were WAITING for something to set them off like a wildfire and unfortunately, the death of those two boys was a catalyst.

The power does lie within the masses, and it is up to the masses to decide how they want to deal with a problem. Unfortunately, the masses in France are choosing rioting and looting and not organizing a grassroots effort to vote on a system that would work for them. They will suffer for their poor decisions.

Posted by: KJ | November 7, 2005 04:36 PM

All I'm hoping for is that all of those arrested in the riots will be treated with respect, dignity and humanly, not like the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay and proper legal representation will be given to all equally.

Posted by: non-Parisian | November 7, 2005 04:49 PM

The French are learning what America learned back in the 60s and 70s. You cannot have a welfare state that provides everything and the people own nothing. When American's poor blacks rioted after Martin Luther King was assassinated, a reporter asked a rioter why he was destroying his neighborhood. His response is something I think you would hear from rioters today in France:

"I'm not destroying my neighborhood. I don't own anything here. We're not burning our homes, we're burning the government's homes."

The welfare state holds off revolution caused by poverty but not revolution caused by the stress and anguish of having no credible future. America made the choice to integrate and through "affirmative action" provided futures for many who were discriminated against. Anti-discrimination laws were passes and enforced. Its been a long hard few decades since those riots in the 60s and 70s but things are much better today, not perfect, but much better since we chose to integrate. The French have little choice, they must also integrate and provide a future for their lower class citizens. Maybe the French made a mistake by allowing immigration in the past, but now they must live with their mistake.

France has the American model to build an integrated France on. Hopefully they won't be too smug to ignore it. But you have to wonder about a country that has a Ministry of Culture.

Posted by: Sully | November 7, 2005 05:20 PM

After 11 days of rioting, and no end in sight, perhaps we can now understand why France doesn't want any part in a real conflict. If they can't get kids under control, God knows how they'd fare against people with weapons.

Posted by: K.J.B. | November 7, 2005 07:07 PM

Cornelius, old buddy, I appreciate your trying to spread the real word to so wide an audience, but you left out the part about the alien death rays we also pointed at French teens to ensure that the mind-control transmitters placed in their cereal would work their "riot magic."

Cornelius Wrote:
US intelligence agencies do infiltrate ethnic/revolutionary groups around the world to destabilize govts

Posted by: Rusty Shackleford | November 7, 2005 07:17 PM

Back in the Post's pages, Molly Moore writes that the rioting "underscores the chasm between the fastest growing segment of France's population and the staid political hierarchy that has been inept at responding to societal shifts. The youths rampaging through France's poorest neighborhoods are the French-born children of African and Arab immigrants, the most neglected of the country's citizens. A large percentage are membersBack in the Post's pages, Molly Moore writes that the rioting "underscores the chasm between the fastest growing segment of France's population and the staid political hierarchy that has been inept at responding to societal shifts. The youths rampaging through France's poorest neighborhoods are the French-born children of African and Arab immigrants, the most neglected of the country's citizens. A large percentage are membersBack in the Post's pages, Molly Moore writes that the rioting "underscores the chasm between the fastest growing segment of France's population and the staid political hierarchy that has been inept at responding to societal shifts. The youths rampaging through France's poorest neighborhoods are the French-born children of African and Arab immigrants, the most neglected of the country's citizens. A large percentage are membersBack in the Post's pages, Molly Moore writes that the rioting "underscores the chasm between the fastest growing segment of France's population and the staid political hierarchy that has been inept at responding to societal shifts. The youths rampaging through France's poorest neighborhoods are the French-born children of African and Arab immigrants, the most neglected of the country's citizens. A large percentage are members

Posted by: Back in the Post's pages, Molly Moore writes that the rioting "underscores the chasm between the fas | November 7, 2005 08:29 PM

ng that this would be totally different in the US:

- New Jersey riots
- LA riots
- Detroit riots
- Chicago riots

Pot, meet kettle.

Posted by: Andy | Nov 7, 2005 2:50:49 PM

You know, there's a difference between "blaming Bush and/or the US for everything" (conservative simpletons' view of liberal critique) and acknowledging that US intelligence agencies do infiltrate ethnic/revolutionary groups around the world to destabilize govts ("keep your friends close, your enemies closer" "divide and conquer").

In a situation like the rioting in France, no 'infiltration' is even neccessary for the US to act as agent provocateur: simply send some contract people out to set fire to some extra cars, and you 1) help create a spectacle that keeps Rove's lies, Bush's failure in South America, and the CIA black prisons OFF the front pages of the EU press, and 2) helps to represent young Muslims as a threat to middle-class Europeans. Mission accomplished.

Posted by: Cornelius Naso | Nov 7, 2005 3:51:57 PM

Hi, we are 2 french teens and we want to explain our viewpoint.
(first sorry about our bad english)
I live in Rennes and my friend near Paris at Corbeil-Essones. Many cars have burned in our cities. The problems of the blocks are not new, there has long been problems of violences. The voicelessness of the politicians for 30 years has been one of the principal reasons. The death of the 2 teens at Clichy-Sous-Bois was a detonator of a bomb that has been sleeping ..We agree that revolt is understandable but we do not agree with the many destructions.

Nicolas Sarkozy is a pillier of the revolte, his [comments] are not correct for a minister.

In any ghettos, the riots are a result of police's provocations. For example near Juyn's home, too many CRS (riot police) are circling a ghetto that was outside any violence and the consequence was a very violent protest. For many it's a competition between ghetto-city about who can burn the most of cars...

And Islamists groups are NOT behind this riots...even if a "lacrymogene bomb" (we don't find any translation;) was thrown in a mosque at Aulnay-sous-Bois those who rebel are young and that was a factor who launch others riots in the others town out of Paris...

For young people, in France, the French Government is bad! We can only see since us birth "misery" and hatred of teens! Policeman and old people hate teens and assume this viewpoint. The national news says teens are bad .... Many month ago, a big non violent protest was created by students against the government and Fillon's laws, but this protest of 120 000 teens, and more of teachers was without repercussions on the policy of the government...So we are not surprised that any younth break laws, even we think it s not the good solution...

if you want to contact us : balistik35@free.fr
http://balistik35.free.fr
http://juyn89.free.fr

Posted by: Juyn & Balistik | Nov 7, 2005 4:08:13 PM

I suppose that Bush is also at fault for the high unemployment - 3 to 4 times higher than the rest of the country, low wages and racial discrimination and despair. Yeah, blame it on Bush, and see were that's going to take you. Never look for solutions, just keep mudding the issues, Mr. Cornelius Naso.

Posted by: non-Parisian | Nov 7, 2005 4:25:22 PM

I love Mr. Morley's message boards. There's never a shortage of people with more opinions than brain cells on this thing.

My question is this: Why make such a broad generalization about Muslims in general? Another question: Why blame the USA for an internal problem in France? I find it quite humourous that a lot of you people whine that the U.S. gets blamed for everything while simultaneously you blame an entire religion for the riots in France!!

Use your brains and get off your high horse, your religion was never any better. Just look at what the Crusades tried to accomplish. Hopefully you still don't think it was for a noble cause. Stop being so racist, do some soul searching, and then ask if your "creator" (whatever that is) would ever condone your behaviour.

France's rioting problems ARE NOT caused by G.W Bush, the U.S., Muslims, Democrats, Republicans, the Kyoto treaty (by the way, the original poster was using an ancient technique called SARCASM, yes it was dripping), any more than they were caused by Aliens, Santa, Elvis, or Napoleon himself coming back from the grave.

France's problems are directly related to the socio-economic status of that region. Some of the people are poor, are being shut out from day-to-day life, and are facing oppression from the elite class. And whenever there is a large disparity between two classes, the lower class will always become disgruntled.

Simply put, France's problem is an internal issue best left for them to decide and act upon and not for us to sit there and make racist comments about Muslims or bring up conspiracy theories about the USA. And certainly we shouldn't be using this to promote religion or political parties.

This riot has nothing to do with those two boys who were electrocuted. These communities were WAITING for something to set them off like a wildfire and unfortunately, the death of those two boys was a catalyst.

The power does lie within the masses, and it is up to the masses to decide how they want to deal with a problem. Unfortunately, the masses in France are choosing rioting and looting and not organizing a grassroots effort to vote on a system that would work for them. They will suffer for their poor decisions.

Posted by: KJ | Nov 7, 2005 4:36:55 PM

All I'm hoping for is that all of those arrested in the riots will be treated with respect, dignity and humanly, not like the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay and proper legal representation will be given to all equally.

Posted by: non-Parisian | Nov 7, 2005 4:49:08 PM

The French are learning what America learned back in the 60s and 70s. You cannot have a welfare state that provides everything and the people own nothing. When American's poor blacks rioted after Martin Luther King was assassinated, a reporter asked a rioter why he was destroying his neighborhood. His response is something I think you would hear from rioters today in France:

"I'm not destroying my neighborhood. I don't own anything here. We're not burning our homes, we're burning the government's homes."

The welfare state holds off revolution caused by poverty but not revolution caused by the stress and anguish of having no credible future. America made the choice to integrate and through "affirmative action" provided futures for many who were discriminated against. Anti-discrimination laws were passes and enforced. Its been a long hard few decades since those riots in the 60s and 70s but things are much better today, not perfect, but much better since we chose to integrate. The French have little choice, they must also integrate and provide a future for their lower class citizens. Maybe the French made a mistake by allowing immigration in the past, but now they must live with their mistake.

France has the American model to build an integrated France on. Hopefully they won't be too smug to ignore it. But you have to wonder about a country that has a Ministry of Culture.

Posted by: Sully | Nov 7, 2005 5:20:09 PM

After 11 days of rioting, and no end in sight, perhaps we can now understand why France doesn't want any part in a real conflict. If they can't get kids under control, God knows how they'd fare against people with weapons.

Posted by: K.J.B. | Nov 7, 2005 7:07:32 PM

Cornelius, old buddy, I appreciate your trying to spread the real word to so wide an audience, but you left out the part about the alien death rays we also pointed at French teens to ensure that the mind-control transmitters placed in their cereal would work their "riot magic."

Cornelius Wrote:
US intelligence agencies do infiltrate ethnic/revolutionary groups around the world to destabilize govts

Posted by: Rusty Shackleford | Nov 7, 2005 7:17:31 PM

Back in the Post's pages, Molly Moore writes that the rioting "underscores the chasm between the fastest growing segment of France's population and the staid political hierarchy that has been inept at responding to societal shifts. The youths rampaging through France's poorest neighborhoods are the French-born children of African and Arab immigrants, the most neglected of the country's citizens. A large percentage are membersBack in the Post's pages, Molly Moore writes that the rioting "underscores the chasm between the fastest growing segment of France's population and the staid political hierarchy that has been inept at responding to societal shifts. The youths rampaging through France's poorest neighborhoods are the French-born children of African and Arab immigrants, the most neglected of the country's citizens. A large percentage are membersBack in the Post's pages, Molly Moore writes that the rioting "underscores the chasm between the fastest growing segment of France's population and the staid political hierarchy that has been inept at responding to societal shifts. The youths rampaging through France's poorest neighborhoods are the French-born children of African and Arab immigrants, the most neglected of the country's citizens. A large percentage are membersBack in the Post's pages, Molly Moore writes that the rioting "underscores the chasm between the fastest growing segment of France's population and the staid political hierarchy that has been inept at responding to societal shifts. The youths rampaging through France's poorest neighborhoods are the French-born children of African and Arab immigrants, the most neglected of the country's citizens. A large percentage are members

Posted by: Back in the Post's pages, Molly Moore writes that the rioting "underscores the chasm between the fas | Nov 7, 2005 8:29:55 PM
Post a Comment

Name: ng that this would be totally different in the US:

- New Jersey riots
- LA riots
- Detroit riots
- Chicago riots

Pot, meet kettle.

Posted by: Andy | Nov 7, 2005 2:50:49 PM

You know, there's a difference between "blaming Bush and/or the US for everything" (conservative simpletons' view of liberal critique) and acknowledging that US intelligence agencies do infiltrate ethnic/revolutionary groups around the world to destabilize govts ("keep your friends close, your enemies closer" "divide and conquer").

In a situation like the rioting in France, no 'infiltration' is even neccessary for the US to act as agent provocateur: simply send some contract people out to set fire to some extra cars, and you 1) help create a spectacle that keeps Rove's lies, Bush's failure in South America, and the CIA black prisons OFF the front pages of the EU press, and 2) helps to represent young Muslims as a threat to middle-class Europeans. Mission accomplished.

Posted by: Cornelius Naso | Nov 7, 2005 3:51:57 PM

Hi, we are 2 french teens and we want to explain our viewpoint.
(first sorry about our bad english)
I live in Rennes and my friend near Paris at Corbeil-Essones. Many cars have burned in our cities. The problems of the blocks are not new, there has long been problems of violences. The voicelessness of the politicians for 30 years has been one of the principal reasons. The death of the 2 teens at Clichy-Sous-Bois was a detonator of a bomb that has been sleeping ..We agree that revolt is understandable but we do not agree with the many destructions.

Nicolas Sarkozy is a pillier of the revolte, his [comments] are not correct for a minister.

In any ghettos, the riots are a result of police's provocations. For example near Juyn's home, too many CRS (riot police) are circling a ghetto that was outside any violence and the consequence was a very violent protest. For many it's a competition between ghetto-city about who can burn the most of cars...

And Islamists groups are NOT behind this riots...even if a "lacrymogene bomb" (we don't find any translation;) was thrown in a mosque at Aulnay-sous-Bois those who rebel are young and that was a factor who launch others riots in the others town out of Paris...

For young people, in France, the French Government is bad! We can only see since us birth "misery" and hatred of teens! Policeman and old people hate teens and assume this viewpoint. The national news says teens are bad .... Many month ago, a big non violent protest was created by students against the government and Fillon's laws, but this protest of 120 000 teens, and more of teachers was without repercussions on the policy of the government...So we are not surprised that any younth break laws, even we think it s not the good solution...

if you want to contact us : balistik35@free.fr
http://balistik35.free.fr
http://juyn89.free.fr

Posted by: Juyn & Balistik | Nov 7, 2005 4:08:13 PM

I suppose that Bush is also at fault for the high unemployment - 3 to 4 times higher than the rest of the country, low wages and racial discrimination and despair. Yeah, blame it on Bush, and see were that's going to take you. Never look for solutions, just keep mudding the issues, Mr. Cornelius Naso.

Posted by: non-Parisian | Nov 7, 2005 4:25:22 PM

I love Mr. Morley's message boards. There's never a shortage of people with more opinions than brain cells on this thing.

My question is this: Why make such a broad generalization about Muslims in general? Another question: Why blame the USA for an internal problem in France? I find it quite humourous that a lot of you people whine that the U.S. gets blamed for everything while simultaneously you blame an entire religion for the riots in France!!

Use your brains and get off your high horse, your religion was never any better. Just look at what the Crusades tried to accomplish. Hopefully you still don't think it was for a noble cause. Stop being so racist, do some soul searching, and then ask if your "creator" (whatever that is) would ever condone your behaviour.

France's rioting problems ARE NOT caused by G.W Bush, the U.S., Muslims, Democrats, Republicans, the Kyoto treaty (by the way, the original poster was using an ancient technique called SARCASM, yes it was dripping), any more than they were caused by Aliens, Santa, Elvis, or Napoleon himself coming back from the grave.

France's problems are directly related to the socio-economic status of that region. Some of the people are poor, are being shut out from day-to-day life, and are facing oppression from the elite class. And whenever there is a large disparity between two classes, the lower class will always become disgruntled.

Simply put, France's problem is an internal issue best left for them to decide and act upon and not for us to sit there and make racist comments about Muslims or bring up conspiracy theories about the USA. And certainly we shouldn't be using this to promote religion or political parties.

This riot has nothing to do with those two boys who were electrocuted. These communities were WAITING for something to set them off like a wildfire and unfortunately, the death of those two boys was a catalyst.

The power does lie within the masses, and it is up to the masses to decide how they want to deal with a problem. Unfortunately, the masses in France are choosing rioting and looting and not organizing a grassroots effort to vote on a system that would work for them. They will suffer for their poor decisions.

Posted by: KJ | Nov 7, 2005 4:36:55 PM

All I'm hoping for is that all of those arrested in the riots will be treated with respect, dignity and humanly, not like the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay and proper legal representation will be given to all equally.

Posted by: non-Parisian | Nov 7, 2005 4:49:08 PM

The French are learning what America learned back in the 60s and 70s. You cannot have a welfare state that provides everything and the people own nothing. When American's poor blacks rioted after Martin Luther King was assassinated, a reporter asked a rioter why he was destroying his neighborhood. His response is something I think you would hear from rioters today in France:

"I'm not destroying my neighborhood. I don't own anything here. We're not burning our homes, we're burning the government's homes."

The welfare state holds off revolution caused by poverty but not revolution caused by the stress and anguish of having no credible future. America made the choice to integrate and through "affirmative action" provided futures for many who were discriminated against. Anti-discrimination laws were passes and enforced. Its been a long hard few decades since those riots in the 60s and 70s but things are much better today, not perfect, but much better since we chose to integrate. The French have little choice, they must also integrate and provide a future for their lower class citizens. Maybe the French made a mistake by allowing immigration in the past, but now they must live with their mistake.

France has the American model to build an integrated France on. Hopefully they won't be too smug to ignore it. But you have to wonder about a country that has a Ministry of Culture.

Posted by: Sully | Nov 7, 2005 5:20:09 PM

After 11 days of rioting, and no end in sight, perhaps we can now understand why France doesn't want any part in a real conflict. If they can't get kids under control, God knows how they'd fare against people with weapons.

Posted by: K.J.B. | Nov 7, 2005 7:07:32 PM

Cornelius, old buddy, I appreciate your trying to spread the real word to so wide an audience, but you left out the part about the alien death rays we also pointed at French teens to ensure that the mind-control transmitters placed in their cereal would work their "riot magic."

Cornelius Wrote:
US intelligence agencies do infiltrate ethnic/revolutionary groups around the world to destabilize govts

Posted by: Rusty Shackleford | Nov 7, 2005 7:17:31 PM

Back in the Post's pages, Molly Moore writes that the rioting "underscores the chasm between the fastest growing segment of France's population and the staid political hierarchy that has been inept at responding to societal shifts. The youths rampaging through France's poorest neighborhoods are the French-born children of African and Arab immigrants, the most neglected of the country's citizens. A large percentage are membersBack in the Post's pages, Molly Moore writes that the rioting "underscores the chasm between the fastest growing segment of France's population and the staid political hierarchy that has been inept at responding to societal shifts. The youths rampaging through France's poorest neighborhoods are the French-born children of African and Arab immigrants, the most neglected of the country's citizens. A large percentage are membersBack in the Post's pages, Molly Moore writes that the rioting "underscores the chasm between the fastest growing segment of France's population and the staid political hierarchy that has been inept at responding to societal shifts. The youths rampaging through France's poorest neighborhoods are the French-born children of African and Arab immigrants, the most neglected of the country's citizens. A large percentage are membersBack in the Post's pages, Molly Moore writes that the rioting "underscores the chasm between the fastest growing segment of France's population and the staid political hierarchy that has been inept at responding to societal shifts. The youths rampaging through France's poorest neighborhoods are the French-born children of African and Arab immigrants, the most neglected of the country's citizens. A large percentage are members

Posted by: Back in the Post's pages, Molly Moore writes that the rioting "underscores the chasm between the fas | Nov 7, 2005 8:29:55 PM
Post a Comment

Name:

Posted by: ng that this would be totally different in the US: | November 7, 2005 08:32 PM

i don't want us to help france...if y'all recall, France never let us use their air space during the first gulf war in the early 1990s and they were not behind us with Saddam either.


I married a french frog and divorced him too. They hate americans, they also hate jews, and not fond of black people...so if they hate jews and black people, they also hate muslims.


They are angry at themselves for giving the USA the Statue of Liberty also!


Johnny Carson, the great talk show host, may he rest in peace, said, and I quote: "The French bite the hands that feed them. If it wasn't for us (the americans), there would be a KRAUT-IN-THE-BOX where the Eiffel Tower is."

Posted by: | November 8, 2005 08:59 AM

and an Addendum to that post....why is it taking Jacque Chirac over 12 days to PUT INTO PLACE A "CURFEW" ????? 12 DAYS of anarchy and unrest and they still have yet to kick in a curfew!

happy i live in the usa

Posted by: | November 8, 2005 09:01 AM

Oh !!!!
"I married a french frog and divorced him too. They hate americans, they also hate jews, and not fond of black people...so if they hate jews and black people, they also hate muslims.
" post bye |Nov
ohhhhh!! I AM VERY CHOKED !!!!
Why did you say we hate blacks peoples jews ect ??? French = Rascist ????????
I'm sorry but we don't hate anybody !!!
Do you remember against who we fougth 50 years ago ?????????
Why did you say I rascist??? I DISAGREE !!!! my girlfriend is not a french personn, my friends haven't got french roots !!!!!!!!!!!
And you're happy to live in USA ??? I hope for you is true, I'm hopping for you American People is not rascist, I'm hopping for you you're not poor, but I can just hope you know one day the REAL France !!! with his population !!!!
I'm not for the rascism, I hate that !!! same I hate you viewpoint !!!!
Morever, we d'ont hate you, americans, we hate your governement !!!!!!!!!!!!! we hate bush and his policy !!!!
We hate inequal policy..
I know all american are not look likes at you Nov, but say you, all french are not same your " french frog !!! "

For finish, If we posted us message on this forum, it was saved teens apparence in the world, because french medias kill that !!!

Currently..

JuyN
to tact me : l_ange_noir@laposte.net

ps: I'm sorry for my ( very ? ) bad english but I am so chocking by your post !!!

Posted by: JuyN | November 8, 2005 01:26 PM

Oh !!!!
"I married a french frog and divorced him too. They hate americans, they also hate jews, and not fond of black people...so if they hate jews and black people, they also hate muslims.
" post bye |Nov
ohhhhh!! I AM VERY CHOKED !!!!
Why did you say we hate blacks peoples jews ect ??? French = Rascist ????????
I'm sorry but we don't hate anybody !!!
Do you remember against who we fougth 50 years ago ?????????
Why did you say I rascist??? I DISAGREE !!!! my girlfriend is not a french personn, my friends haven't got french roots !!!!!!!!!!!
And you're happy to live in USA ??? I hope for you is true, I'm hopping for you American People is not rascist, I'm hopping for you you're not poor, but I can just hope you know one day the REAL France !!! with his population !!!!
I'm not for the rascism, I hate that !!! same I hate you viewpoint !!!!
Morever, we d'ont hate you, americans, we hate your governement !!!!!!!!!!!!! we hate bush and his policy !!!!
We hate inequal policy..
I know all american are not look likes at you Nov, but say you, all french are not same your " french frog !!! "

For finish, If we posted us message on this forum, it was saved teens apparence in the world, because french medias kill that !!!

Currently..

JuyN
to tact me : l_ange_noir@laposte.net

ps: I'm sorry for my ( very ? ) bad english but I am so chocking by your post !!!

Posted by: JuyN | November 8, 2005 01:31 PM

I'm really sorry, my pc bug and I don't want to flood this forum... really sorry
but I want to add one thing :
French and French gourvernement are different, same Bush not represent everybody of amercain population...

Posted by: JuyN | November 8, 2005 01:34 PM

I do agree with JuyN, I don't think that French people are racist, but they are extremely arrogant. They do dislike any other culture (and that includes their neighbors)except French culture. This is also called the "French superiority syndrome" and is it well documented. And of course that this is just a sweeping statement, but we all understand that NOT ALL french people are alike...

Posted by: | November 8, 2005 01:55 PM

To JuyN: in a democracy the leaders are representing the the people. Because that's who votes them in the office. Therefore, Bush does represent the majority, NOT ALL, of the americans and Chirac does represents the french people because that who voted him in. So the majority of americans do agree with the Bush's policies...they voted for him twice!!!

Posted by: Me | November 8, 2005 02:07 PM

This has nothing to do with France or America. This is just typical caucasoid ignorance and innate racism.

Posted by: XX | November 8, 2005 02:24 PM

A Democracy..??!! in the US..?!! How is that, since we are a REPUBLIC remember? Electoral votes are not all of the common people's votes tallied...Half or more of all politicians cannot be trusted, and for the 6 figures or more to their yearly salary, where most people(who supposedly voted them in) do not even make nearly, and I mean nearly that much...at an hourly rate...that is just pure insanity. Why in the name of anything with common sense would I vote someone in a representing "us" job making triple to more than I or anyone else for that matter. What a rip off this has become...a fallacy..and the sheep will follow.

Paris has problems...but these youths need to take responsibility for their actions...I cannot blame this on estrogen...maybe testosterone...and granted a feeliing of hopelessness in poverty..or ethnic seperation...or maybe just wanting to have everything given to you...without contribution is unrealistic, and this concept should be something to consider. Unless, of course these people who are rioting are willing to work at a job with any type of pay. I bet though...their government officials..make a whole lot more than they would ever see.

Basically, to stop the rioting...it takes force..unfortunately..but it takes force to stop force. Not a time out..lets talk, until anger...and levels of barbaric behaviour is at a low, can you actually sit down, and have a civilized talk. But, we are talking about another country, We are waiting to hear the concerns though.... out of curiousity, of what these youths...and being mostly Muslim...what it is they are wanting to be given to them..it is almost like a terrorist..or hostage situation.

Posted by: fem61 | November 8, 2005 03:09 PM

Your first paragraph is irrelevant. With the electoral votes or not, the guy in the White House is elected by a majority of votes BY THE PEOPLE. People vote for the electorate not the other way around. During the presidential election there are plenty to choose from, from socialists to libertarians...next time chose the right candidate so you have to complain!!!

Posted by: Fidel | November 8, 2005 04:41 PM

uh, he won by a majority of people who vote (this was the second time, not the first time), not a majority of americans.

Posted by: suze | November 8, 2005 05:33 PM

That's right, since here in America we can't force people to vote like in some other parts of the world, where the voter turn out is......100%

Posted by: Fidel | November 9, 2005 12:19 AM

France is not America. There is no Statue of Liberty welcoming huddled masses. France is the homeland of the French people. For whatever stupid reason God only knows, France and other European countries have allowed large numbers of Muslims to move into their countries, something their ancestors died to stop because they knew the imcompatibility of Islam and Western civilization. I hope the Europeans wake up and deport all of these people. Otherwise, Europe will be a majority Muslim continent and no Muslim country has ever been a good place to live. Name one...you cant because it doesn't exist. I am not a racist, but some religions and cultures are clearly inferior or at the very least, totally incompatible. Christians, Jews, Buddhists, atheists, Mormons, even Wiccans are fairly peaceful people. They may not like or agree with each other, but they live and let live. Islam is different. If one reads Islamic writings and takes them seriously, violence has always been the next step. This is a fact of history.

Posted by: Matt | November 9, 2005 02:16 AM

" I am not a racist, but some religions and cultures are clearly inferior or at the very least "
euhhh you're not racist ?? are you sur of that ????
Everydays, I read differents american topics, and I hope my idea is wrong !!!!

You saied too all religions are incompatibles, but, I think, if we think different of your viewpoint, if we cry All People Is Equal, All Religion is Equal, All skins Color is equal, the world could be inteligent and he will be in peacefull !!!
I can't tell you all of my viewpoint because my english is limited, but tolerance is the key of a big big majority of our problems, our it's not French problems, but World Problems.

I'm young, I'm only 17 old, maybe for you I juste a kid, or a BAD kid, I've not Idea, I know just, if everybody is as you, War en Hate should be very intense !!!!!

I prefer stop her because my English is very insufisent for explain really my viewpoint about this sujet.

Posted by: | November 9, 2005 01:28 PM

True France isn't America. It only takes where as America trys to correct it's errors. France benefitted from the slave trade setting up colonies where it's was not welcomed. Now you say the people they've exploited have no rights. It's typical caucasoid thinking. there no such thing as allowing foreigners into France and the rest of Europe since Europeans have always gone into countries they aren't welcomed. But, that is the past and instead of trying to fix the issue you rather make up excuses.

Posted by: XX | November 9, 2005 01:34 PM

Nov do you say in france we could say violence is because a segragation is present against muslims blacks ect ?

Posted by: JuyN | November 9, 2005 04:00 PM

TO MATT: Excellent post!

To JunY: The people I dealt with in France, the ex's family, told me themselves that they hate Arabs and Jews (this was a catholic family). I DO know THE REAL FRANCE, spent months several different times with family there. The BEST place in all of FRANCE IS:
AIX-EN-PROVENCE! To each his own. I never called you a racist. I was speaking in a majority kind of way. I meant MOST French people in France do NOT like Americans. And neonazism is on the rise in France (more antisemitic attacks the past year than in the past decade or two) so don't sit there and try to tell us that FRENCH PEOPLE FROM FRANCE ARE NOT RACIST.
YOU, yourself, may not hate Americans, only the govt of America (as many of us do also not like the govt) but generally speaking I have met FRENCH who bad-mouth America constantly and for the past 30+ years.

Again, we can agree to disagree, non?

Posted by: | November 9, 2005 04:07 PM

oops - had some typos *L*

TO MATT: Excellent post!

To JuyN: The people I dealt with in France, the ex's family, told me themselves that they hate Arabs and Jews (this was a catholic family). I DO know THE REAL FRANCE, spent months several different times with family there. The BEST place in all of FRANCE IS:

AIX-EN-PROVENCE!

To each his own. I never called you a racist. I was speaking in a majority kind of way. I meant MOST French people in France do NOT like Americans. And neonazism is on the rise in France (more antisemitic attacks the past year than in the past decade or two) so don't sit there and try to tell us that FRENCH PEOPLE FROM FRANCE ARE NOT RACIST.

YOU, yourself, may not hate Americans, only the govt of America (as many of us do also not like the govt) but generally speaking I have met FRENCH who bad-mouth America constantly and for the past 30+ years.

Again, we can agree to disagree, non?

Posted by: | November 9, 2005 04:10 PM

I thinks your journey was with an old familly...When I saied know the real france I speak about bloks, no " province "

Last years, the antisemites attacks was a minority of people's action, In France, everybody was shocked ! but I think you understand that, it's not a problem.
For the hate of american, I've a explain for that, my viewpoint
Eventually, In France many products are American, Fast-Food, Coca, computers, War..
The French thinks america is a caution because tour country is puissant, America is same a master of the world, and many body is afraid about that !

I don't like american's products because I don't enjoy to send my monaie to a rich country, for instance, I HATE buy a microsoft product !!! I prefer linux, no because it's free, because it's not a leader of the USA.
Moreover, one of the best hospital in Paris is the American Hospital, he's extremely expensive and that is a bad point for American ! all of the imported products are expensive... I know the economics reasons but not eveery french....
I think for the frenchs, Americans are welcom, the tourism is important for us, and everybody is welcom, in the toustistics cities, I don't know if Aix-En-Provence is a touristic town, but at Paris, americans are welcom !!!!


For end my post, I think we have the same pb :
Americans don't like French and Frenc don't like americans, the reasons are old and whitout end, but if everybody stop to juge others peoples and populations, maybe we can hope...but that it's impossible with our gouvt ( your gouvt and my gouvt ! )

Posted by: JuyN | November 9, 2005 04:31 PM

JuyN: Thank you for that post. I appreciated your effort in explaining your thoughts. Aix-En-Provence is a college town and elderly live there also. It is in the south of France, near Cassis, and near when the vineyards are.

My thoughts are that America is not a super power any longer. You all should be worrying about CHINA taking over the world by 2039. China supports Iran and so China will say NO to any sanctions our govt wants to put on Iran. This is ongoing right now. China WILL someday take over the world, perhaps not in my lifetime, but in my daughter's lifetime.

I have been to American Hospital - a wonderful place - in Paris back in 1980. They helped me a lot and I got great medical care in France (also in England). Your medical plans in Europe far exceed any medical plans the USA has in place for its people.

As for the family in France, you said it might be an old family....well, it's not. The siblings are in their 40s, and their kids are in their 20s. Oh, and the mom-in-law is 75! A very young 75.

Johnny Carson once said (he died last year but was a famous talk show host for 30+ years): "The French bite the hands that feed them. If it wasn't for us, there would be a Kraut-In-The-Box where the Eiffel Tower is." (We used to have a fast food restaurant chain called Jack-In-The-Box and is where Johnny Carson got his Kraut-In-The-Box line from).

To end this, I just want to say all I, personally, ever wanted was Peace and Love and all my generation got was GUNS AND TERRORISM! You can see how an entire generation here in the USA is totally disillusioned by that.

Be well!! A' bientot!

Posted by: | November 10, 2005 09:08 AM

"I married a french frog and divorced him too. They hate americans, they also hate jews, and not fond of black people...so if they hate jews and black people, they also hate muslims.
" post bye |Nov

pfff, all french people are not racists...
i hate racism...i'm a white young man and many of my friends are blacks, muslims etc etc...In 2002, i were in demonstration against LePen..the person who say that don't know what about she say...about mour opinion on USA, it's not true that french hate americans...we hate G.Bush, he's a danger for the planet ...for me, i like american hiphop: Nas, WuTang, Redman,Jedi Mind Tricks etc etc...
For Aix-En-Provence, i can ask the question to a friend who live over there :)...but in south,FN (extrem-right political group) is too present (30% in 2002),inversely in Brittany FN has make 8% in 2002 (in Rennes)
------------
I have seen that Gemini said higher (?) :(farmers and fishermen also burn stuff - like the XVIIth century Parlement de Bretagne in 1994 - but they have political demands)
I have seen the parlement burned but what is the link???(now it's rebuild^^)

Posted by: BaLiSTiK | November 12, 2005 11:17 AM

when I hung out in France in the 1980s - PRE BUSH BEING PRESIDENT - Americans were bad-mouthed all over northern France - from Paris on up. Not so in the South of France....a more preferable place. *S*

Posted by: | November 12, 2005 02:33 PM

It appears that the causation of the french riots is much like the causation of the Watts riots here in the US - no jobs and no hope for any jobs either for the current generation or future ones.

the base cause of that is too many people, in most parts of the world, but especially in urban areas.

The Watts area had lost a lot of jobs and the Parisian suburbs never had them. As long as we in the west export jobs and import poverty this will get worse in the US and in countries like France.

It appears that the arabs and africans are simply not needed in current French society, so are ignored.

what we need to do is quit allowing job exports and start encouraging buying local materials.

Posted by: malthus later | November 14, 2005 03:21 PM

RE: Malthus later post.....which really breaks down in the US to QUIT BUYING AT WAL-MART AND SAM'S. Walmart and Sam's has 6000 vendors of which 5000 are from CHINA and Wal-Mart has just opened 15 stores in China. 80 percent of Walmart's business comes from CHINA.

China will be taking over the world in 2039. All the kids should be learning Mandarin/Chinese language in the US now...so they will have an understanding when this comes down in 2039.

Fortunately, by 2039, I will be DEAD and won't get to see the Communist takeover of the world. Unfortunately, all you young ones will have to deal with this. Very sad.

In the US - BUY AMERICAN PRODUCTS ONLY!Start now, 2005.

Oh and SCREW FRANCE! Remember, they never back us up and didn't let us use their air space during the first Gulf War. They consistently bite the hands that feed them.

jes my 2 cents

Posted by: | November 16, 2005 08:38 AM

China edging out U.S. for APEC leadership

ALEXA OLESEN

Associated Press Nov. 16, 2005

BUSAN, South Korea - It's bigger, faster and ready to throw its weight around.

When China joined the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation forum 14 years ago, it was the lone communist behemoth among a field of nimble market economies. Today, it's a leading actor in the annual forum that represents about 60 percent of the global economy and nearly half of world trade.

Analysts say China has virtually edged out the United States as the dominant economic and political force among the 21 Pacific Rim economies gathering this week in this South Korean port city.

"When APEC was created, the United States was certainly the leading country in the mix," said Greg Mastel, chief international trade adviser for the Washington law firm Miller & Chevalier. But China's blistering economic growth and the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in the United States changed that, distracting Washington from Asian trade objectives and allowing China to play an increasingly pivotal role, Mastel said.

"China is now at least as powerful a force in Asia and within APEC as is the United States," he said.

APEC includes the United States, Japan, China, Canada, South Korea, Mexico and Australia - seven of the world's 13 largest economies - as well as Russia and a clutch of Southeast Asian, South Pacific and Latin American countries.

The group represents about 2.6 billion people, more than a third of the global population. About one half of them are in China.

"China was an important player in APEC from the beginning, but its growing wealth has made it a more important player than ever," said William Bodde, former executive director of APEC. "APEC membership enhances China's role as a regional leader and player on the world stage. I would expect China's influence to grow in the years ahead."

The United States has welcomed China's increasing willingness to use its political clout to press neighbor North Korea on nuclear disarmament talks. But Washington has major concerns about Beijing's trade practices, such as its hesitation to revalue its currency against the U.S. dollar or limit the flood of cheap textile exports that the U.S. says threatens American manufacturing jobs.

China is the largest export market for the 10-nation Association of Southeast Asian Nations, six of whom are APEC members. While Singapore, the Philippines, Indonesia and other regional economies once focused on the United States for trade opportunities, they now look closer to home.

Bilateral trade between China and ASEAN rose 25 percent to $59.8 billion in the first half of 2005, and ASEAN is now China's fifth-largest export market and fourth-largest trading partner. ASEAN's trade with the United States, valued at $136 billion in 2004, has also been rising, but at a slower rate.

The shift, some say, has as much to do with Washington's failures as Beijing's successes.

"There was considerable disenchantment among the Asians who felt that they didn't get the financial help from the U.S. they thought they should during the 1997 Asian financial crisis," said Bodde, a retired U.S. diplomat. "The U.S. decision to negotiate a patchwork of free trade agreements in Asia and elsewhere has further weakened the APEC free trade goals."

APEC's Latin American members also seek to hitch a ride on China's rising economic star.

While in South Korea this week, Chilean President Ricardo Lagos is expected to sign a free trade pact with Chinese President Hu Jintao - China's first with a Latin American country.

Trade between Chile and China reached $6 billion in 2004, including massive copper sales to China.

APEC, launched in 1989, aims to establish free trade among its members by 2020. Its scope has expanded to issues like corruption, terrorism and public health, all of which affect trade and growth.

China's influence in non-economic issues has blossomed since it became a member in 1991.

Among other issues, APEC leaders are expected to endorse international efforts to end North Korea's nuclear programs, in which China and Washington are both key players. China is also crucial to efforts to fight bird flu.

Outbreaks of bird flu in Chinese poultry over the past month and fears migratory birds are spreading the deadly H5N1 virus across borders has reinforced the need for cooperation between Beijing and other APEC members.

Posted by: China Awareness | November 16, 2005 08:44 AM

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