Excellent entry Jefferson.

To claim that Mohammed with a bomb (and lit fuse) shaped face is not an insult is an insult to our intelligence.

I however think that the reaction was overblown.

Boycotting Danish products over the incident seems misplaced and unfair to me.

Is there any validity to the argument raised re: if the target were Jews that publication would be outlawed? Are there Danish laws prohibiting the mockery of Jews? I understand the argument is complicated but I really do wonder if it is a moral convention which prevents Europeans from engaging in anti-Semitic commentary (and rightfully so) and not laws. Does anyone know offhand? If it is a matter of convention then it I would argue there is no validity to the argument. If people learn from past mistakes and choose not to engage in the same behavior then it is not the same at all as having laws forbidding the practice. I also understand German law to be on point but that is another issue altogether.

Nonetheless, where do Muslims get off demanding tolerance and respect of other religions? Who are they kidding? Seems the Muslim world has little if any respect for Jews in particular as well as Hindus and other faiths.

Why is the muslim world in an uproar over something printed in some hitherto unknown Danish newspaper? Don't they have jobs and things to worry about?

Who cares if there are one billion or ten billion Muslims. The issue is freedom of the press not how many people are supposedly 'affected'.

I respect the Danes for having their, and living by, their convictions. The Muslims had better enter the real world and not some fictious world of 600 AD

first of all there is no place for terrorism in Islam.
having said that if anyone is of Islamic origin is suspected of wrong doing is automatically reffered to as "Islamic terrorist or radical ro Islamist" this unfortunately has become a norm.
IRA and Mossad are never reffered to as catholic and jewish terrorists why is that?

Once again the Muslims seem to think everyone should march to their tune. While they have total disregard for any opinions but their own narrow minded view of the world. It seems to be a religion of absolutely no tolerance or respect for anyone's views but their own outdated, head in the sand myopic beliefs.

Dear Washington Post Writers / Readers,

I have recently witnessed that Jyllands-Posten newspaper of Denmark has published some disparaging cartoons regarding the prophet of Islam, Muhammad (peace be on him). As a Muslim, I am very much offended by this unfortunate incident and found these drawings extremely abhorrent.

The notorious newspaper Jyllands-Posten's concern seems to be "freedom of speech". Let us talk about "freedom of speech". I firmly believe in the notion of freedom of speech and opinions. We cannot silence people by just prohibiting them from voicing their opinions. It is absolutely wrong! In this sense, I am all the way in favor of freedom of speech. However, I must say that ONE'S FREEDOM ENDS WHEN IT STARTS TO HURT AND OFFEND OTHER FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS. What they showed can only be described as "freedom of impudence" or "freedom of insult". I believe that "freedom of speech" is a crucial and indispensable element of democracy and pluralism upon which the modern European democracies were founded. Nonetheless, maybe I am too dumb but I do not see how one can fit "freedom of insult" in democracy!? Since we are living in a big global village called the World, we must show the utmost care not to offend other people's beliefs and sanctities.

As far as I am concerned, Jyllands-Posten's argument is that freedom of speech is being diluted, undermined and eroded. But one cannot defend this noble idea by fiercely insulting 1.5 billion people in the World. This is not a joke, and what they have done does not sound funny at all!

I have always thought of Denmark as a progressive, tolerant, open-minded country with friendly and hospitable people. But these recent events have, unfortunately, changed my feelings negatively. I do not know exactly, but in their culture, is it acceptable to make fun of God, prophets, scriptures and sacred ideas?! Is it a matter of joke? Nevertheless, it is extremely insulting, offensive, rude and disgusting to deride religion in Islam. We are strictly prohibited from making such derogatory comments. By the same token, we also absolutely refrain ourselves from ridiculing other religions, especially Christianity and Judaism. Because, people of these religions are recognized and respected as the "People of the Book" in Islam. We, Muslims, have utmost respect for Jesus and Moses (peace be upon them) as we are commanded in our holy book Koran and instructed by the teachings of our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). In this sense, we expect a similar attitude from non-Muslims in reciprocation. Nonetheless, Jyllands-Posten's recent act truly violates the very essence of this principle.

Unfortunately, especially in recent years, we have seen some insane people, who were known to be Muslims seemingly, exhibited violence and terror towards innocent human beings regardless of their religion, nationality, race etc. These lunatics infringed the very principles upon which Islam was established some 14 centuries ago. They basically hijacked our religion which, in effect, promotes peace, solidarity, justice and generosity towards not only Muslims but all human beings. Every Islamic organization and all mainstream Muslims strongly condemned these acts of horror at every occasion relentlessly. So did I personally. However, such comments were not displayed in Western media in most cases. I believe most of them were deliberately disregarded.

My humble suggestion to Jylland-Posten and all Danish people is that they should consult reliable and unbiased authorities in regards to such issues. Learn about the true facts of Islam from its original sources (the holy book "Koran" and the teachings of the Prophet called "Hadith"). I am sure there are mainstream Islamic organizations in Denmark where you can consult such matters. You do not have to be a Muslim, you do not have to like Islam, it is all right; but all of us must show respect to each other.

Having uttered all these remarks, I must say that these infamous cartoons are exceedingly insulting and wounding towards Muslims. I do not know exactly how to describe its magnitude to you. Let me put it this way: It is far more disparaging and derogatory than saying "you mother is a whore and your father is her pimp!". Now, please have some empathy and think hard! How would one feel, when someone made such a comment about one's very much respected parents or spouse? Then multiply its grossness by 100 or 1000. That is the magnitude of pain and insult perceived by a regular Muslim. Because according to Islam, Muslims are required to love Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) more than anything in the World, including their parents, spouse, children and even their own selves. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself strictly forbade Muslims to draw his pictures let alone making insulting, repugnant caricatures. The very reason was that people might stray from Islam by worshipping his pictures or sculptures. That is why we do not welcome such drawings in any way. We follow the message of God brought by him and his exemplary life.

I sent Jyllands-Posten an email expressing my feelings of disappointment and disgust regarding Jyllands-Posten's disrespectful, offensive and arrogant attitude towards Islam a few weeks ago. They have just started to realize how big a mistake they have made.

All in all, I fiercely and unflinchingly condemn Jyllands-Posten for publishing these ugly drawings and whoever supports them in this matter. I do hope that Jyllands-Poste's apology is sincere and not part of an anti-Islamic provocation. Now we can talk about "freedom of speech".

If the drawing of a supposed image is sacred, then outlaw cartoons, no, writing! Let no one write, speak or otherwise express themselves; lest we offend the mighty muslim! Get a grip,it was a cartoon meant to be humorous. Worry about the important things in life.

Danish government can not hide behind their "Freedom of speech" phrase. That is your internal matter. All YOUR laws are all YOUR laws, not for the rest of the world. You should never try to hide behind "our laws" when dealing with issues outside your border.

Regarding Yusuf Qaradawi, the "many western" critics are in fact mostly American.

Qardawi is the head of the European Council for Fatwa and Research.

Qardawi was banned from entering the US in 1999, and an attempt to do the same in Britain failed in 2004.

The groups who attempt to censor or ban Qardawi are mostly associated with Israeli interests. These groups find some of Qardawi's views on Palestinian militants (suicide bombing) intolerable.

In the Islamic world (Arab),
some orthodox Muslim groups do criticize Qardawi for being "too lax". The Salafis regard him as a "heretic".

Finally, it is important to remember that Qardawi is a Sunni Muslim Scholar. Shia have their own scholars.

Overall, Qardawi is well respected in the Arab world for his relative openness and moderation. For years, Qardawi led a successful show on Al-Jazeera debating taboo subjects like oral sex and such.

This govelling apology is a victory for the forces of Islamic terrorism. In Muhammad's own lifetime he had his followers ruthlessly assassinate those who chose to ridicule his tenuous claims to prophethood, one of these being a woman and another an aged old man. But this was 7th century Arabia. In the 21st century it now seems that nobody in the whole world is safe from Islamic terrorism. If the modern world does not value it's freedom it will forfeit it to demonic ideologies out to crush the human spirit. It nearly capitulated to both Nazism and Communist Totalitarianism. Will it now obediently roll over and play dead when assaulted by this 7th century Islamic barbarism?

This idea of 'media responsibility,' coming from the most anti-Semitic media the world has seen since Hitler.

The arab press routinely publishes cartoons which insult, degrade, ridicule and stereotype Israel and Jews.

I'd take Muslim criticism over this sort of thing a lot more seriously if they themselves actually gave a rat's a** about the sensitivities of any other group on this planet.

In a perfect world it would be wonderful if those who believe the Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddism faiths were nonsense would be permitted by society to say so, but there is scant room in the mass media to do so. Every belief, no matter how wild, is given equal credence. But there is a difference between gently pointing out that Darwin may have a point, and ridicule to the point of inciting hatred against a certain belief.

In response to Vahit Sametoglu. See once again the Muslims are perfect and everyone else is evil.

I know for a fact that anti-semitism is illegal in most european countries, in France displaying a swaztika is a major felony, so I see the point that the muslims are making, while it is illegal to incite hatered and violence against the Jewish people it is OK and considered freedom of speech to slander the dearest symbols of Islam, it should not be that way, especially when muslims make up the largest minority group in Europe and they can be victimized by allowing hate mongering as free speech

This idea of 'media responsibility,' coming from the most anti-Semitic media the world has seen since Hitler.

In a perfect world it would be wonderful if those who believe the Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddism faiths were nonsense would be permitted by society to say so, but there is scant room in the mass media to do so. Every belief, no matter how wild, is given equal credence. But there is a difference between gently pointing out that Darwin may have a point, and ridicule to the point of inciting hatred against a certain belief.

There is no tolerance of other religions in the Arab world. Until the 1960s there were still significant Christian minorities across north Africa and in the Middle East. Today most Arab countries are almost entirely Muslim as a result of utter intolerance of other faiths.

In Islam, it is no longer acceptable to convert to Christianity should your spouse be born a Christian. But it is required that a man's wife convert to Islam.

Seems like a double standard to me.

Well Mark - I'm a Catholic who understands the Muslim struggle

I've got 2 Questions for you

1 - How would you feel about a Cartoon or Jesus in a KKK outfit (some claim racism is in the bible)
2 - How many people do you think Christians Killed in the last 400 years in the name of the Savior

I'm not trying to justify suicide suicide bombers or anything - Extremisms is clearly present in Christians
look at what we turned the world into

The reason that IRA was never referred to as catholic terrorist is because Christianity, or Christians don't advocate murder of non-believers or apostates. Look at the Muslim countries and see how minorities are withering away because of this intolerance. Wherever Muslims are in a majority, they force others to live by their stifling laws.

In reply to Ryan's query about why Muslims are so angry over something he might percieve to be trivial... sir... you have to understand that Muhammad PBUH is the single most important figure in Islam. We have our own beliefs and values and what happened is extremely offensive. It is not trivial to us. While some people may ridicule their own scriptures, holy figures, places of worship etc. you have to understand that most Muslims do no consider religion to be a target of ridicule especially from those with a very skewed viewpoint of it.

Hate speech and cartoons are legal in Denmark and the US - legality is not the issue. Their publication is deserving of condemnation and apology by the publisher.

Here's an item in the (Jewish) Anti-Defamation League newsletter about a cartoon it found offensive:

New York, NY, November 19, 2001 ... Calling it an example of the "gross anti-Semitism and hatred that continues to pervade segments of Arab society," the Anti-Defamation League (ADL)today expressed outrage at the depiction on Abu Dhabi Television of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon as drinking the blood of Arabs."

Is the gross anti-Islamism and hatred pervasive in Christian Danish society any less odious, any less outrageous than the gross anti-Semitism of which the ADL complained?

To the preceding writer, there is no more a "Muslim world" to condemn in a wholesale fashion than there is a "Jewish world" to condemn for the lack of respect some prejudiced Jews show for Muslims and/or Arabs.

To those who think a boycott of Danish goods is a disproportionately punitive reaction, I ask: Did you ever speak out against Israel's vengeful demolition of Palestinian homes? That's my litmus test for the bona fides of any opinion on the issue of proportionality.

actually amir, the IRA is considered a terrorist organization.

The mass media obviously focuses on only one aspect of any given issue. Anti-Muslim sentiment has been growing at a rapid pace in Denmark for the past ten years. The Fogh Rasmussen government has actively sought to dispel and block Muslim residents from Denmark. The cartoon is the tip of the iceberg, so to speak. Also, it should be remembered, that the cartoons were published months ago, and the PM refused to meet with Muslim leaders to diffuse the situation, despite repeated requests. As the country's chief diplomat, he has an obligation to engage in diplomatic dispute resolution.

I guess the cartoonist was just showing a side of the prophet before going to "Pieces". I have to agree with many writers that say that people cannot continue to live in the 600 AD era. It still make look the same but the world has evolved. Unfortunately, people of the middle east haven't evolved and it scares the hell out of me that they are spreading around the world and we welcome them with open arms. They hate us but they'll move in minutes.

Everyone tip-toeing around trying hard not to offend Muslims...while comical or disrespectful images of Christ is totally accepted. This whole controversy is just a sick, double standard politically correct joke on the twenty-first century world.

How free is speech in the West anyway? Britain is in the process of passing a law which will effectively muzzle free speech by outlawing "mockery of religion" (whatever that means). "Denying the holocaust" is a crime in several European countries including Germany and Austria, where David Irving, a controversial historial is in jail for a speech he made over 10 years ago. Saying one is against the Iraq war in certain parts of the world is considered tantamount to treason, if not actually illegal (so far).

I don't agree with Muslims who say images such as the Danish cartoons should be banned, but I see their point that the West has double and triple standards in this area. If free speech means anything at all, it means the right to say ANYTHING, no matter how absurd or offensive other people may find it.

unfortunately the media gives "headlines" to a handfull of criminals claiming to be muslims portraying them as Muslims with no tolerance.
if one looks at recent history 1950+ and their source of info is CNN and BBC yes Islam looks like a religion with no tolerance.this is not the case and never was the case.
if the west is not able to PLANT Mcdonalds and KFC in a country then that country some how seems intolerable and they feel that there's a need for regime change in that country.
it seems perfectly normal for USA and Britain and all these countries to kill innocent people all over the world all in the name of freedom and everyone seems ok with it.the world is still waiting for the "weapons of mass destruction".
is it fair to call Bush "Christian Terrorist" or a crusader?

Amir,

I can't speak about Mossad, but the IRA is often called a radical Catholic terrorist organization. When the Catholic part is left out, it's only b/c it's widely known they're Catholic.

As to anyone of Islamic origin accussed of wrongdoing being referred to as an "Islamic terrorist", perhaps it's because they hide behind Islam to justify their actions? Or maybe b/c the Muslim world consistently fails to condemn their actions.

I have never said that Muslims were perfect! I mentioned those lunatics who hijacked our religion. I am all the against their sick ideology. Your mistake is to judge Islam according to what some lunatics did. My parents raised me in such a way that I would not harm any human being in any way, let alone killings whatsoever. I would treat each and every human being with dignity, respect and tolerance. This is what I have learned as a Muslim since the day I was born!

My point is that there is no infinite freedom. One cannot insult and slander other people's religion in the name of freedom of speech, regardless of the name of the religion.

Some people are trying to equate Islam with terrorism. In this sense, Timothy McVeigh and Eric Rudolph are Chrtistian terrorist, right? Wrong! No religion condones such abhorrent acts.

We, human beings of all kinds, need dialog, understanding and wisdom, not provocation.

wow!
for a religion of love and torleance, as we have all been told the mmuslims are, they sure aren't showing tolerance for the opinions of others.
If I wanted to draw Jesus as a suicide bomber, would the world be outraged? I think not.
The reason is that, outside of the IRA, no one has killed in the name of catholicism since the crusades. The muslim world seems to be trapped in the past. They are living in a backwards time, claiming love and tolreance, while eaching that the only sure way into heaven is martyrdom, and that everyone other than their particular sect of islam is an infidel, and deserving death. For an example of this, we need look no further than iraq, where the sunni and shi'ite muslims are killing each other, simply because they're not the same. The Muslim world needs to leave the dark ages, and join with the world of today, whithout any holy wars, without a culture where women are subservient to men, a culture built on democracy, not absoloute theocratic dictatorships (I'm looking at you, Iran).
If they cannot leave the dark ages in their past, where they belong, social darwinism will come into play, and they will cease to exist.

Vahit Sametoglu writes "Every Islamic organization and all mainstream Muslims strongly condemned these acts of horror at every occasion relentlessly. So did I personally. However, such comments were not displayed in Western media in most cases. I believe most of them were deliberately disregarded."
Muslims don't seem to have any trouble having there voices heard when they are insulted by cartoons. Where is that same outrage at those that have "hijacked a peaceful religion?" Where are the Muslims filling the streets to protest the "acts of horror" committed by extremeists? This is not a "Western media cover-up." What a bunch of nonsense! Either the notion of a peaceful Islam is a complete and utter myth or those that claim to be proponents of a paeceful Islam are cowards. We have a saying in the west, "actions speak louder than words." Where is the action of the peaceful Islam? Nowhere to be seen or heard.

willhelm - in response to your question - i have seen much more insensitive parody aimed at christianity and other religions here in the US. you can probably do a google search and find websites that mock christinaity, god, jesus and all kinds of other stuff. its all out there. i dont see what makes the muslim's think this is a situation unique to them. in the US, christian groups are constantly speaking out about hoe they are offended by this and that, look at the stink they made over passion of christ.

In response to Talha. You need to get a life. Our time on this planet is short. We must be tolerant of each other. As a believer in a higher power I find it far more offensive that any religion would hold to the belief that it is okay to kill a non-believer, but making a cartoon is on the order of the end of the world. I have always been taught tolerance and diversity and I try to practice them. Two values that seem to be lacking in Islam.

What in the world does freedom of expression mean if it is limited to the sensibilities of others? It makes the notion totally meaningless. There are very few things that can be said on political and social issues that will not offend some person, no matter how irrational or isolated. Is that what you really think "freedom" is? To not be offended?

Racist statements are illegal in Denmark no matter which group of people they are aimed at - the law doesn't distinguish between Jews, Muslims or any other groups of people. For example four people were sentenced to two weeks of prison for making a political advert saying "Group rape, severe violence, insecurity, forced marriages, women's suppression, gang violence; that is what a multi-ethnic society offers us". (Source: http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/baggrund/article.php?id=2971118). These drawings - however untactful they may be - will never be considered racist in the Danish legal system. Claiming that rules are different towards different religions is simply wrong.

Response to the Jyllands-Posten's publishing of the caricatures has become somewhat similar to the publication of Salmon Rushdie's "The Satanic Verses" in the sense that what would have gone generally unnoticed by most of the world became widely observed not for the original works but for the brouhaha that evolved. RE: Jyllands-Posten's caricatures of Mohammed, is the issue HOW he was portrayed or the very fact that he WAS portrayed? And, in response to Kardes Vahit's posting, one cas readily see that the way that Islam is perceived by Muslims is in fact quite different from the way that Islam has evolved in recent years and how it is being practiced in societies such as Taliban Afghanistan and Wahhabi Saudi Arabia. Perhaps, instead of focusing on these caricatures, leaders in Muslim societies should focus moreso in improving heathcare and education for both men and women and for promoting tolerance in media in Islamic countries. One has only to read mainstream official newspapers and electronic media in most Islamic countries to understand that the "insensitivty" and "intolerence" of Jyllands-Posten is no match to the vitriole of official media in most Islamic countries.

I just love how religion brings people together. No matter the faith it truly brings about an understanding and love for all mankind.

I'm less interested in the Muslim reaction to the Danish cartoons (unfortunate) than I am in pointing out the sloppy journalism in this piece. I know someone who retired from the Post a few years ago, and he always criticized it for sloppiness. The discussion of Qaradawi is a good example of sloppy research. Citing Wikipedia? It's not fact-checked, and nobody's around to take responsibility when it's wrong. It's ok to start your research there, but to openly rely on Wikipedia alone for your characterization of someone is foolish, especially on a topic as sensitive as political Islam, and when terms like "extremist" or "moderate" are as poorly defined as they are. Morley has Lexis-Nexis, he can look up what's been written about Qaradawi. After a brief scan, I learned the following three things: 1) he supports suicide bombings in Israel/Palestine 2) he considers attacks on American soldiers and civilians in Iraq to be a religious duty for every Muslim 3) he does support participation by Sunnis in the Iraqi elections. Is this moderate? Compared to al Qaeda, yes. Does he support killing American and Israeli civilians? Absolutely. But I found it out in less than three minutes using Lexis and didn't have to lamely rely on Wikipedia.

When Islamic nations apologise for, and retract, cartoons, stories, editorials, television programs, school curricula, radio speeches, and other incitements of hatred against Jews and Christians, I'll take seriously their calls for apology and retribution. Until then, this is simply hypocrisy.

Unlike the case in some European nations, Holocaust denial is completely legal in Denmark. This blows big holes in the pro-Judaism theory.

Well Willhelm. I was born a Catholic and if you want to make fun of Christ go right ahead. I'm not so simple minded as to be insulted by that. I do not nor will I every condone what the Catholic church has done in the past, emphasis on the past. So let us not bring up ancient history only remember had bad it was and promise not to repeat it. I was taught the Lord was all good and forgiving, something that is lacking in Islam.

I am from Denmark and was quite surprised by the turn of these events. The cartoons were in my point of view, at best, pretty crappy and not funny at all. 4 months later, they are burning our flag in the middle east and refusing to buy our products.

Dave Bob: Yes, you can ridicule jews, christians, the queen or whatever/whoever you like and it has been done on many occasions. We have a strong tradition of challenging anyone in power and freedom of speech. You could say that fx. jews were stupid, thats your oppinion. Saying that you would kill jews is of course against the law.

Ryan: Excatly, the cartoons are just a scapegoat or soapbox. It is not a coincidence that the flagburners were members of the Fatah-party, which just lost the election... Or that Saudis perhaps needed something to draw attention away from the 350(or thereabout) people killed in the pilgrimage stampeed. Or perhaps the 1000's of princes living of the oil while they have a big, poor population.

Ben: Right you are. The muslims dont seem to understand that "Freedom of speech" is as important to us, as their religion.

Amir: Yes, you could ponder about why that is so. Having you seen any statistics on the religious beliefs of suicide-bombers lately? My guess would be that it would tilt slighty to Islam, no? Anyone remember the majority religion/origins of the 9/11 hijackers? IRA and Mossad are maybe not labelled as jewish or catholic terrorist because they dont yell "God is great" before pressing the little red button?

The whole issue is spun out of control and i would love to see it calm down again.

Vahit Sametoglu wrote:
"However, I must say that ONE'S FREEDOM ENDS WHEN IT STARTS TO HURT AND OFFEND OTHER FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS."

You have just proved that you know nothing of the ideal of "freedom of speech." Offending other human beings is what political discourse is about. Talking out problems and representing one's point of view is very likely to "offend" someone. In fact, I would say offending people is required in free speech, otherwise it is tempered or self censoring, and that is not free speech.

Sully excelent and to the point

Are there any practicing Muslims who think this is a socially responsible and acceptable form of freedom of speech? I bet there are more practicing Christians who can understand it as offensive to Muslims. Why is that? Christians had an Enlightenment. Islam hasn't. We as westerners need to accept that and work with it, not deny and try to conquer them with our supposed superior values. You can't force that on people. BTW, I wonder how a cartoon of Jesus molesting a child would go over with the West on Al-Jazeera? You know, just poking fun at the unfortunate sterotypes of Christian priests and ministers. Is that funny freedom of speech? It would probably be dismissed by a good many of Westerners (Christian or other) as tasteless freedom of speech, but for the majority of the Christian faithful (ie. practicing) it would spark anger too.

First of all, Islam is completely against killing innocent people, period!

Muslims did not show their anger in the streets, because we do not deem those terrorists as Muslims. Those are bunch of criminals. Western media labeled Muslims = terrorists.

Why would I demonstrate in the street, if some lunatic committed a crime? I did not do anything, and I know that Islam did not permit them do to so.

Did you demonstrate in the streets against Timothy McVeigh or Eric Rudolph? Why not? They committed those crimes because they were supposedly given the mission by God.

I would be protesting loudly, if someone slandered Jesus or Moses. These prophets are revered in Islam. Their names and stories are mentioned in Koran, in various chapters. We have utmost respect for Jesus, Moses, David, Joseph, Solomon, Adam, Noah etc.

Another guy says there is double standard. No! Christians themselves are making fun of Jesus in cartoons, comics, TV films etc. Muslims have never ridiculed any other religion's prophet. It is against Islam.

Before attacking Islam, I recommed that you read Koran and equip with knowledge, not biases, misconceptions or hallucinations. As Einstein says "Eradicating prejudices is much more difficult than splitting an atom.". Especially when it is coupled with sheer ignorance!

How ironic to juxtapose insensitivity to Muslims with the public norms on anti-Semitism. Apparently it is "normal" for Muslim religious and government leaders to proclaim that Jews are descendants of pigs, to encourage murder of Jews, or sanction suicide bombings..., but a cartoon in a newspaper.... well, that's apparently crossing the line. Give me a break --- it's a cartoon!
Also, there is no secret that there are many religious Muslims who are convinced that accomplished suicide bombers are destined for heavenly paradise. If that's the case, will they not be there with Prophet Muhammad and others of their ilk? So what's the problem if we paint them with the same brush?

It is very frightening to see how humanity has been focusing more and more on religious issues and religious animosity for the past 10 years.The phenomenon has reached now a third of the earth population and is now self expanding. And more and more, it seems that each group looks at the other as if it was coming from another planet. The reality is that most people share the same basic concerns: Live healthy and happy and see their kids grow and be happy.

But these religious concerns are taking so much importance these days that they are blinding and scaring more and more people. It is not a good thing and it can lead to more troubles ahead.

Vahit,

Others have already taken exception to other parts of your post. Here's one part that stood out to me:

"I do not know exactly, but in their culture, is it acceptable to make fun of God, prophets, scriptures and sacred ideas?! Is it a matter of joke?"

Yes, absolutely! People make fun of the royal family, politicians, religion, and lots of other things that some people might consider touchy subjects or taboo.

It is an individual choice whether to curtail your own personal freedoms in order to not offend certain people. However, it is counter to everything in Western democratic thought to force this upon all people.

"Nevertheless, it is extremely insulting, offensive, rude and disgusting to deride religion in Islam. We are strictly prohibited from making such derogatory comments."

This is certainly essential to know if you want to know what kind of reaction your actions might provoke in the Islamic world. However, it is irrelevant in the question of how the rest of the world should behave.

Mark,

What's tolerable for you is not necessary tolerable for others.

You keep saying that it is ok if someome insults Jesus (something Muslims never do because they consider him as a valid prophet) therefore everyone else should go by YOUR standard.

Well, who are you? God on earth? The master of the universe?

Your government, the alleged most civilized country on Earth, invaded and still invades other countries and KILL 100,000 of people for the sake of a STEADY and RELIABLE SOURCE OF CHEAP OIL.

How many times did your "civilized" elected officials chant that the Middle East is a "strategic area for the United States"?

I bet this fascist arrogant behavior stems from tolerance and respect of others.

If the Muslims decide to boycott Danish products (something I don't support) well it is perfectly OK.

It is NOT a crime.

Why don't you boycott Middle East oil for once?

STOP BUYING OIL FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, and STOP KILLING FOREIGN PEOPLE FOR OIL.

The publications of the Muslim world routinely publish horrifying anti-Semitic cartoons and caricatures. For the Muslim world to cry and complain now is certainly the pot calling the kettle black.

In response to Vahit. Who wrote "Muslims did not show their anger in the streets, because we do not deem those terrorists as Muslims. Those are bunch of criminals. Western media labeled Muslims = terrorists." I am a Catholic and if someone faction was killing Muslims in the name of Christ you can bet your sweet a** I'd be in the street. Rmemeber Bosnia. We went their to stop Christians from murdering Muslims. What we got for that is more Muslim crap. I used to be ympathetic. Its gone I only have disdain for Islam, not only because of the murders commited in its anme, but because prople like you who claim to be good Muslims say and do nothing about those who adulterate you belief.

Some tried to associate Islam with some lunatic terrorists. Your logic is wrong. If I use the same logic, then how can one describe these? Inquisition courts in Europe, people who were torched to death, mental patients who were beaten to death because they were thought to be devils, Native Americans who were exterminated and mass-murdered, Jews and other people killed by Nazis, people who were murdered by IRA, ETA etc, Muslim families in Germany (in Solingen) whose houses were incinerated by Nazi arsonists... This list goes on and on. What was the religion of these perpetrators? Your answer is...

All in all, terrorism is terrorism, bigotry is bigotry and violence is violence. In all religions, countries, cultures, there are some lunatics like these. If you label a large mass of people by just looking at some tiny fraction of radicals, you will not see the whole picture.

Before you have an opinion, have some knowledge. Not the other around!

Peace to all fellow human beings.

I believe in freedom of expression but what the Islamophobes seem to forget is that freedom of expression applies both ways. It is the epitome of irony to bemoan the Muslim World for expressing their discontent by boycotting Danish and Norwegian products and burning flags (freedom of expression), whilst simultaneously endorsing the right of newspapers within those two States to engage in the worst sort of xenophobic faith-baiting, defamation and incitement in the name of freedom of expression.

Danes and Norwegians are learning an important lesson, that freedom of expression is not freedom from consequence. I support the right of Danes and Norwegians to engage in religious bigotry but protests about the consequences are tiresome, petulant and self-indulgent.

Karim see no tolerence your way or the highway.

Mark,

Are you sure you went to Bosnia to save Bosnians from being murdered? Was it not a bit too late? After 250,000 Bosnians were mass-murdered and 40,000 women systematically raped! How lucky we are! What if you did not react so quickly?! What about the Gulf War 1990, Operation Iraqi Freedom (!), Abu Ghraib? What was the reason? I smell some "oil" here!

Just because someone has the *RIGHT* to say something free-speech laws, doesn't mean they *SHOULD* say those things. I'm surprised by how many posters miss this obvious point.

And Free Speech laws don't protect you from being criticized when you say reprehensible things either.

Seems to me that this newspaper may well have the right to bigotted and slanderous cartoons. But then people in the Muslim world have the right to strongly condemn them, boycott their products and recall their ambassadors.

If one side wants to play hardball (within the law) than the other side can surely play Hardball (within the law) too. And it would be naive for the instigators (the Danish newspaper) to think that this wouldn't happen.

Karim,
Why do you assume where I am from and what government I support. I believe in tolorence. I don't kill people because they don't share my bliefs or religious affiliation. In fact the only religion that seems to be doing that is Islam

Reader,
There is oil in Bosnia? Who knew.

Mark is a bigot.

Hundreds of mainstream Muslim organizations have repeatedly and loudly condemned terrorism. Just Google it.

Anyone that repeats the tired Islamophobic canard at this point that Muslims don't condemn terrorism must be willfully ignorant and a bigot. That is Mark.

I agree that freedom of speech entails accepting consequences of that speech. Because you can be a total jerk does not mean you should. That is a given of civilized discourse.

However, isn't the issue here the demand that the Danish government issue some kind of apology? Recalling ambassadors and the like shows a dramatic misunderstanding of western institutions. Western governments do not write and edit the stories of its newspapers. In most of Europe and the US it is patently illegal for the government to intervene and edit or censor a story. Therefore, it does seem unreasonable to demand an apology from the government and to ban the products of an entire nation. The anger should be directed to the newspaper responsible for publishing the offending cartoons. Only from a fundamental ignorance of the nature of a free society could these demands possible be justified.

Mark,

You are absolutely wrong! Who says I did not do anything against those adulterated my religion. I did a lot of things. I donated tons of baby formulas for the Katrina victims. Because I thought they were victims of a natural disaster and they needed help! I helped organize a lot of meetings, dinners, open house events in my community to present Islam to non-Muslims. I spared my time to explain what Islam is to non-Muslims. I always distanced myself and Islam from those criminals in order to show thr true face of Islam. I always tell my fellow Muslims brothers/ sisters that we must save ourselves from ignorance, illiteracy, vice, poverty by promoting education, health care, family values etc.

What else would you like to do???

Re:Posted by: Amir | Jan 31, 2006 11:32:03 AM.." anyone is of Islamic origin is suspected of wrong doing is automatically reffered to as "Islamic terrorist or radical ro Islamist" this unfortunately has become a norm.

Amir,
I think it has something to do with the exultation "ALLAH AKBAR" during the terror act, and oh, maybe, the fact thay they SAY they are doing this in the name of ISLAM!

Where is the Muslim "not in my name" crowd?

In civilized countries if you commit a hate crime...you're prosecuted no matter what kind of religion you have! Think about this when you talk about nazis burning down muslims' houses in Germany. There is no double standard.

Anon,
I am not a bigot, far from it. I would love to see some mainstream Muslim organizations that have repeatedly condem terroism. What do I google ???? If I find them then I will stand corrected. Also lets not call each other names when we don't see eye to eye least we start butchering each other.

Anon,

"If one side wants to play hardball (within the law) than the other side can surely play Hardball (within the law) too. And it would be naive for the instigators (the Danish newspaper) to think that this wouldn't happen."

The whole point of soliciting and publishing the drawings was to "play hardball": they wanted to initiate an open debate in the country's media.

You're right, people have the right to react in whatever way they feel appropriate, but we also have the right to question whether their response was proportionate and reasonable. If governments ban trade with Denmark, Denmark and its allies have a right to react in a way they feel appropriate, too.

By the way, there are important elements of the story that have largely gone unreported in the international media so far.

For instance, the delegation of Danish Muslims that visited different Muslim countries to raise awareness fabricated several drawings to support their agenda; one notable drawing depicted Muhammad as, literally, a pig. These people clearly have an agenda. The governments spear-heading the criticism and trade bans against Denmark, such as Egypt, are also fairly transparently trying to score points with their citizens.

Vahit,
I'd like to see you marching the street.

Karim wrote:
"STOP BUYING OIL FROM THE MIDDLE EAST"

Now here is a point where Karim and I can agree. The West has had nothing but trouble from the ME. It is strategic only because of the oil. Brazil produces 80% of its automotive fuel (ethanol) in Brazil and is now self sufficient. They started in the 70s after the ME countries boycotted oil sales to the west.

I say its time to get out. The oil won't last forever anyway. Let them eat oil and we'll put our dollars toward growing our own fuels, grown and processed by Americans. Andm, since its crops that make the fuel, there is no additional CO2 production.

Here a link that depicts the history of alcohol production as a fuel in this country and how the oil inductry fought it tooth and nail:
http://www.radford.edu/~wkovarik/envhist/RenHist/1.biofuels2.html

Alternative fuels will not happen while oilmen occupy the White House. Under the republicans we will always be in the ME until the oil runs out. That ought to be a fun time...

To whomever said, regarding free speech, "I must say that ONE'S FREEDOM ENDS WHEN IT STARTS TO HURT AND OFFEND OTHER FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS."...

No, it doesn't. That's the very point you're missing.

I would highly recommend ALL the worlds muslims to STOP buying the danish paper "Jyllands-posten", thereby expressing your anger in their stupid cartoons.

As for boycotting a cheesemaker and other firms in the same country seems... well, stupid.

Today there has been a bomb threat against the very same newspaper, the alarm was just called off. I wonder who did that? A tolerant muslim perhaps? Tolerant muslims have also stormed the EU building in Gaza and burned the danish and norwegian flags. Loving muslims beat up 2 Arla(the dairy company) employees who were in a store.

And behold the pinnacle of tolerance!: Saudi-Arabia, who will not let anyone into their country who is from Israel, has an israeli stamp in their passport or is an atheist.

Are the fanatical muslims just violently(literally!) jealous of actual freedom of speech? What are they afraid of?

Christianity, by definition, is not a political force. Just claiming to be aligned with Christianity does not make one Christian. You cannot claim to be a follower of Christ without embracing and following His teachings. Christ taught non-violence and peace, e.g. "Love your enemies", "Do good to them that hate you", "Do not kill." Any organization that commits war against another is not Christian. They may claim Christianity in some secular or political sense but they are not followers of Christ and are not Christian. The crusades were not executed by Christians, they were executed by a political organization that claimed to follow Christ but, in fact, did not, and was not Christian. Atrocities committed in the name of Christ does not make this a "Christian atrocity." America can claim to be a Christian nation but it is not.
The genocide attempted for American Indians was not done by Christians. Nazis were certainly not Christians, and the Crusaders were not Christians either.
There are no teachings of Christ that would justify any of those behaviors. Performing atrocities in the name of Christ is a egregious justification and blatant misrepresentation of the teachings of Christ and the life He lived.
The atrocities committed in the name of Islam flow directly from the teachings and life of Mohammed. Conversion at the point of a sword by his command.

Tracey,

What if someone calls you "someone who works in a very busy brothel"? Does it sound good? Or what if they say it about your mother, grandmother etc? Is that also freedom of speech? where is the limit of this freedom, is it infinite? I am looking forward your answer.

Liz Said "Where is the Muslim "not in my name" crowd?"

Mark Said "I would love to see some mainstream Muslim organizations that have repeatedly condem terroism. What do I google ???? If I find them then I will stand corrected"

Here is CAIR's petition Entitled "Not in the name of Islam"
http://www.cair-net.org/default.asp?Page=articleView&id=169&theType=AA

Mark do you stand corrected?

I repeat my assertion that people like Mark and Liz who willfully refuse to look for or listen to Mainstream Muslim Organizations who condemn terror because they love to repeat the Islamophobic Canard that Muslims don't condemn terrorism. Anyone who cannot do a simple Google search (as I did in 30 seconds) is willfully refusing to listen.

And Mark, I'm not a violent man. Just because you are a bigot doesn't mean I'm interested in slaughtering you.

To Ben Neimand,

There is a sentence in Koran, it says "there is no forcing in religion". Muslims cannot/ may not convert anyone by force, it is against Islam. Your knowledge is so shallow and clouded with substantial bias. Please be informed.

Before you have an opinion, have some knowledge.

I did not say that Christians committed those acts of horror. I uttered quite the opposite indeed. I also had some chance to read Bible, and it has peacful message. By the same token, you should also read Koran from beginning to end in order to infer something.

Peace be on you.

Reader,

What if you characterize a whole group of people as "sons of monkeys and pigs"?

Rob: "It is the epitome of irony to bemoan the Muslim World for expressing their discontent by boycotting Danish and Norwegian products and burning flags (freedom of expression)..."

Speaking for myself, I'm thankful that it's been limited to boycotting and protests...right now. The problem I have is not with the act of boycotting, it's the impetus with which it is done.

Anyway, how long before someone dies because of a political cartoon?

I have read a lot of crap fom every religion on this article. I offer these 6 words from the most mis-understood man on the planet Rodney King. "Can't we all just get along".......

Reader,
Where are you from the planet of Pluto. Freedom of speech is just that freedom to say what you want as long as it isn't slanderous or libel. You can't yell fire in a crowded movie theater, but you can express your views and your beliefs. It should be the most fundamental right that a human being has. Unfortunately there are countries, societies and religions that fear the power of free speech. I feel bad for all people living in those countries, societies and religions they must be so repressed and angry.

CAIR? CAIR??????? You have GOT to be kidding me!

Reader

Im not Tracey, but in Denmark you COULD say that. If it wasn't true, i could sue you in court for some money, if you threatened to kill me, you would get a few months in a nice comfortable(no, i am not kidding)jail.

Radical concept isn't it?

Now i got question for you, what happens to a woman that is raped, according to Sharia law? (If she doesnt happen to have 3 male witnesses around).

Mark,

Have you marched in the streets when American soldiers molested and raped Iraqi girls? Have you marched in the streets when soldiers desecrated and flushed Koran in the name of Christianity? Have you marched in the streets when soldiers said "your God is weak, my God is stronger, say Lord Jesus" to Iraqi detainees? Have you marched when warplanes bombed Iraqi houses filled with women and children?

I still smell "oil" here!

Somone commented in a local dubai paper that if this was the US that printed this how would the reaction be?
Would they boycott all US products ? I think not, would they withdraw ambassadors, I think not..

I would LOVE it if one US paper has the nerve to publish these so people could see what the fuss was all about and then watch the double-standards of the Arab Nations come into play!

Please US post these pictures ! :)

Gary

"CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG"

Nice saying, now if we only followed it.

Anon,
Okay there appears to be one. In Washington D.C. Now what about the middle east, and the rest of the Muslim world?

Islamic law prohibits all kinds of molestation, rape etc. It is inhumane, immoral, illegal, illegitimate, illicit, unethical and repugnant. The woman you decribed has a right to sue the perpetrator and receive moral and financial restitution, and the perpetrator gets a very heavy penalty. I am not an expert, for more details see a scholar.
Since Jyllands-Posten lied and slandered about Prophet, people have a right to sue it. I invite Danish prosecutors and district attorneys to initiate a lawsuit. This will prove Denmark's objectiveness.

To Vahit,
You are correct that I am no Islam scholar. So maybe you could explain all the fighting, battles, and armies that Mohammed PERSONALLY led and particiapated in, the caravans and looting he performed, the many he personally killed, the "revelation" that he had from God permitting Muslims to fight for the preservation of the faith, and those he "converted" at the point of a sword. I think your snippet of text from the Koran must be taken out of context. At any rate, pardon my misunderstanding for not seeing the truth of Islam as being a religion of peace when it was FOUNDED by a MILITARY man who KILLED people, advocated killing, stealing and looting, and even claimed to have a revelation from God that allowed killing to defend the faith.
Just chalk it up to my ignorance.

The ramifications in the Arab world go beyond burning flags and boycotting products, which would be freedom of speech in response to freedom of speech. Saudi Arabia & Libya have recalled their ambassadors and shuttered their embassies. Armed Fatah gunmen took over an EU office for 30 minutes. Plus, today, there was a bomb threat at the paper's office. The newspaper itself, of course, has already apologized for the offence.

I don't think anyone could argue that the continuing action is not out of proportion with the insult perpetrated by satire in one newspaper several months ago. Indeed, as someone upthread mentioned, focusing on these cartoons seems a calculated strategy to shift anger away from more pressing, close-to-home political problems. It's a terrific way to let subjects in an autocracy vent a little bit without any danger to the people in charge.

However offended you are by a cartoon in bad taste, as most of us in free world countries have learned, it remains just a cartoon. It's unfortunate that your sensibilities were hurt, but what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Anon,
And stop calling me a bigot. I resent that. You can come to my house anytime for talk,diner or just to hang out. Maybe we could solve the worlds problems.
I only hate all murderers and especially ones who do it in the name of a Higher Power. whether they be Christian, Jew or Muslim.

Dhimmi,

"The publications of the Muslim world routinely publish horrifying anti-Semitic cartoons and caricatures. For the Muslim world to cry and complain now is certainly the pot calling the kettle black."

Firstly:

The accusation above applies mostly to the Arab world (including Arab Christians), not to the entire Muslim world.

The Arab Muslims constitute only 22% of all Muslims in the world.

Secondly:

The equivalent of the anti-Semitic cartoons about Muslims are also present in the West.

You will find a caricature of Sharon (Israeli prime minister) as a butcher, but you will NOT find a caricature of Moses, the Jewish people prophet, as a butcher.

Pat Roberson has called Mohammed a terrorist, when did the Arabs call Moses or Jesus criminals?

Yes, some Arabs call Jews all kind of names, and the Israeli do the same against Arabs..it is all bad and should be condemned equally.

I disagree with any retractions or apologies of the caricatures. Just yesterday we were subjected to the video of a kidnapped reporter weeping at the hands of Muslim terrorists threatening to kill her. At what point did we as a society all agree that it's more important to protect the spiritual sensibilities of the Muslim faithful than to demand that the Muslim faithful begin acting like decent law abiding human beings in the terrestrial world? I can no longer accept the sheer hypocrisy of Muslims feigning disbelief while the members of this same religion commit atrocity upon atrocity in the name of their own religion.

When can we as a society tell Muslims that we measure the sacredness of their religion only to the degree that they show us is their daily lives? At what point do we say as rational human beings that a caricature of Allah is far less of an offense to your religion than what Muslim terrorists do to their religion everyday, far less offensive than using a weeping woman as a tool for their own personal gain. Its time we told Muslims that they no longer have a monopoly on defiling their religion.

Jews and/or Christians are, by no means, "son of monkeys and pigs". This is wrong according to Islam. Whoever uttered this committed a huge sin. I apologize on behalf of these people as a Muslim. I would never ever say that, and I would not let this happen, if I were in such an enviroenment. Any word that cannot be called for Muslim cannot be called for non-Muslims as well. We all have a right to live in the World with dignity and peace. Whoever tries to disturb this order, is a sinner in the eyes of God. Whether it is for oil, money, women, land, or anything else.

One of the most popular recent mini-series on Arab television featured a jewish child killing his friend to use his blood to make bread. I don't remember too much outrage. I don't endorse racial or religious stereotypes of any kind, but what's good for the goose...

Vahit,

Good point.

At least the Arab-Muslims are not calling for a boycott of all CHRISTIAN products.

Because you know if it was the way around, the first accusation will be directed at the Muslim faith itself.

Karim,

Total BS. Mainstream media mocks Judeo-Christian religious figures all the time. Want to see Moses mocked? Rent Mel Brooks' "The History of The World". Want to see Christianity bashed? Rent Dogma.

It's all about the free exchange of ideas. In the Muslim world, that's quite dangerous.

Reader

Some muslim group already sued the paper, it was dismissed because it was inside the law. It was not illegal in Denmark, i repeat, not illegal. They did not actually lie or slander, as they did not say anything about him.

They made some pretty lousy pictures(have you seen them?), where amongst also the editor in charge was ridiculed. The only one i found slightly amusing was a picture of a dead suicide bomber going to heaven, but was told he couldn't come in, because they had run out of virgins. This is a satire over muslims blowing themselves(and usually some people near by) and thinking they are getting 60 virgins in heaven.

I have arabs, jews, evangelicals, and catholics in my immediate family - thanksgiving is a hoot lemme tell ya -

The fact is unfortunately, in the world today nearly all terrorists are Islamic. Muslims - Arabs especially - HATE to admit that their ancient and beautiful religeon could be so warped by idiots to the point where a human kills another in violation of the holy Koran - yet justified by Mullahs who claim divine purpose.

The answer is to draw a cartoon showing how the Mullah's "eat everything".

This is a Iranian street saying... "What happened to your business?" one mand asks another "The Mullahs ate it" is the reply.

Mullahs are not always political operatives, just like TV evangelists in america are not always thieves... neither group will open its books however.

Want to stop terrorism? Stop the adulation and power of the pulpit... in Islam and in Christianity.

Hank - YOU ARE A MORON!!!!!

If you think that all Muslims are like the ones holding that reporter than you are not just a moron but a lot of other things as well.

TCanuck:

The movie you mentioned was produced in Syria. A Jordanian tv was going to broadcast it and was not allowed to by the government.

The Muslims who are protesting the Danish issue are not asking YOU as a NON-DANISH to protest along with them.

Just because you might share the same REIGION with the DANISH doesn't make you responsible for what some Danish paper in Europe publishes.

Of course this standard is not applies to Muslims. The Guilt by ASSOCIATION is THE STANDARD.

Why should Muslims in Indonesia, who don't even speak Arabic, get involved in some issue related to Syria in the Middle East???

WHY?

This is RACISM and BIGOTRY.

I accept that the cartoons were offensive. But so what? In a country that values freedom of speech, you do not have a right not to be offended.

The outrage over these cartoons is misdirected. The outrage ought to be directed at those Muslims who have used Islam to justify the killing of innocent people. This is not to say that Muslims have no legitimate grievances.

World's muslims must learn to co-exist with others. They must realise that there is always someone out there with an 'unacceptable' viewpoint, be it on someone else's religion or belief or whatever. It can even be plain racism. Sometime back, certain lingerie and footwear manufacturers in the West depicted images of Hindu gods imprinted on their products. It was an instance of mental depravity of a kind. Some Indians protested. It was never an issue though. Such things are best ignored by the 'offended' after a protest. One must not stoop to respond to all provocations even if later contrived explanations were to state it was 'unintentional'. Plain lies. Are the editors of the Danish news magazine so stupid that they could not see that it was not in good taste and possibly even become explosive? It was plain mischief . But so what? Muslims must not be so naive as to believe morality can be legislated. Sabre rattling can never change someone else's perception of you! Ignore these, my friends and get on with life. Let the perverted feel they have scored a point. They will tire and go away. Racism has always been there alive and active in every country whether openly acknowledged or not. It is becoming overt now because of economics and the changing demography. The western society feels itself threatened and I [a brown-skinned Hindu] believe their fears are real. Maybe they are over-reacting. Message: stay at home and transform your society instead of attempting to coerce others to fall behind you. It is wrong.

I agree with Multicultural!!!!!

Nice way of putting it.

I say we put all the Mullahs and Evangelists on a island and see who survives. (hopefully none of them will Lol)

Hey Blank, I am not a moron but I am sick and tired of Muslims holding everyone else to a standard that I never see them holding themselves to. I read this paper everyday and I haven't seen many flag burnings youths violently demanding that retraction of a statement of violence from Osama.

Count me in with Multicultural

"Just because you might share the same REIGION with the DANISH doesn't make you responsible for what some Danish paper in Europe publishes."

I'm not sure if by "REIGION" you meant "religion" or "region". But in either case this hasn't nothing to do with religion or geographic proximity.

The reason you see non-Danes taking action is because this issue goes far beyond Denmark and to the very core of what freedom of speech and expression is--a topic relevant in all democratic countries.

"Okay there appears to be one. In Washington D.C. Now what about the middle east, and the rest of the Muslim world?"

Mark. You have fingers? You have Google? Go do your own homework.

There is tons of documentary evidence of this on the internet. You are the one making these inflamatory accusations of Muslims not condemning terrorism. Yet clearly you haven't looked.

I re-iterate that people like Liz and Mark who willfully close their eyes to Muslims who condemn terrorism are bigots because they choose to ignore those of us who do (and there are a lot of us). I have no interest in dining with you Mark. I just want to debunk your Islamophobic rhetoric.

Finally another example of Mark's poor understanding of the Muslim world:

"Now what about the middle east?"

Why does someone have to be from the Middle East for you to consider them Authentically Muslim??? Only a small minority of Muslims are Arabs (I think 15%, but not sure).

Dhimmi,
"
Total BS. Mainstream media mocks Judeo-Christian religious figures all the time. Want to see Moses mocked? Rent Mel Brooks' "The History of The World". Want to see Christianity bashed? Rent Dogma.

It's all about the free exchange of ideas. In the Muslim world, that's quite dangerous.
"

Those are meant to be satirical/comedy movies.

Everyone understands that they are NOT meant to be A HATE FEST.

You quickly forget how "The Passion of Christ" was comdened by many Jewish groups in America.

Jews in Israel can mock their own religion but most of them will not tolerate GERMANY MOCKING MOSES AND JUDAISM...for a good reason.

African-Americans can mock themselves by using the n word, but they will not accept it if some WHITE American does it, and for a good reason.

The same applies to Muslims.

This is not about exhanging ideas but about spreading HATRED, BIGOTRY and RACISM.

Anon,
See Hanks post at 1:55.

Hank, sorry I apologize for my comment.

The reason you didn't see it was because it is disguised as PATRIOTISM here in the states.

People were beaten and killed after 9/11 or have you forgotten that. Some of the people attacked were not even Muslims, a Gas station owner was shot is Arizona because he wore a turbin. He was a Sikh, and must let his hair grow without cutting it. What was his crime: that he looked like someone from the middle east. The Muslims do need to be more tollerant, but why provoke them. You know that a rattle snake will bite you, so why mess with it. All I'm saying is that the Danish newspaper had to have an inkling that this would happen, other wise they wouldn't have done it. These pictures were printed twice not once so someone over there screwed up.

Karim,
Yes some Jews boycoted Mel Gibson (Passion of Christ), but I didn't see a world wide rant like the one we are discussing here.

The biggest campaign against Islam is the one carried out by the terrorists Islamic Radicals themselves, not at cartoon. Why don't you see a reaction like this every time innocent people are killed by a suicide bomber? I guess it is more important to complaint about a cartoon. Should the rest of the world boycott all the Muslim nations just because some crazy Islamic radicals? Give me a break....

Per,

I don't believe that.

This is not about freedom of expression because otherwise your government would not be telling Saudi Arabia and even the Palestinian Authority to do something about few radical Imams who try to spread hatred against Jews and Christians.

Your government has banned few Muslim scholars from entering the United States because of their views. Not that they are guilty of any crime because otherwise they would have them arrested as soon as they got in.

Your stand with the Danish has more to do with the hatred of Muslims, and nothing to do with freedom of expression.

And by the way, I do not support the boycott itself.

Karim: Honestly, I don't think the Danish cartoons were meant to be a hate fest either. They were satire. Really! In bad taste? Yes. Would I print them, or laugh at them? No. But it's exaggerating to call them bigotry and racism.

This Egyptian writer puts it well: http://www.muslimwakeup.com/main/archives/2006/01/a_mountain_out.php

And though Jewish groups protested "Passion of the Christ" there were no organized protests, no firing of guns into the air, no bomb threats and no invasions of offices. People disagreed with each other -- that was all.

Is anyone else reminded of the huge furor over that Newsweek article?

It's all about the OIL.....

At least until the Muslims have some control of it.

If the rest of the world boycotted Muslim OIL that would teach them right Rick??????

We don't need there OIL or want them to come to our country to spend there money or buy our expensive automobiles. Give me a break.

Rick just a question, what company do you work/run, I don't want to buy stock there since you will boycott everything that is Muslim....

While I wasn't certain about Denmark, I knew Germany has laws against racial and religious defamation, denying the holocaust, etc. I guess this excerpt from an ADL press release answers that question:

New York, NY, August 24, 1995...The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today praised a decision by the Supreme Court of Denmark paving the way for the trial in Germany of American neo-Nazi Gary Lauck, a major supplier of anti-Semitic propaganda. The Court's action upheld two lower court rulings ordering the extradition of Lauck to Germany, where he faces charges of incitement, encouraging racial hatred, distributing illegal propaganda and Nazi symbols, and belonging to a criminal group.

"We commend the Danish Government for its pursuit of Lauck's extradition and for defending its decision throughout the appeal process," said David H. Strassler, ADL National Chairman and Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "We are confident that the German authorities will vigorously prosecute Lauck, whose inflammatory racist and anti-Jewish materials have been an essential component of the murderous German neo-Nazi movement.

So, why is Denmark being ambivalent about calling to task someone defaming Islam? I think the answer is clear, i.e., cultural and racial bias; the European laws against defamation override freedom of the press, which, by the way, isn't sacrosance as in the US.

The numerous mindless posts implying that Islam is less worthy of devotion than other religions (really the contributors mean Christianity) would be humorous if they didn't give proof of European chauvinism (this includes the US).

I am always amazed at the ignorant statement that an Arab can be an anti-Semite; Arabic is an semetic language--Arabs are Semites; Jews do not have exclusive claim to being Semetic. Anti-Hebraic or anti-Jewish, not anti-Semite.

Thee is a lot of hate and venom expressed in this blog, and it all doesn't come from the East. I am a Christian, but I am embarassed to say that many Muslims know much more about Christianity than Christian know about Islam; in fact, I would venture to say many Muslims know more about Christianity than many purported Christians do; at least I find they understand Chirst was the prophet of peace, and not a war monger.

He didn't hate. Christ, being the son of God, does not need His followers to defend Him. He forgave his persecutors, and He did not curse them. Can anyone who believes that Christ was the Son of God think taht He could not have saved himself fromt he cross? He was a willing sacrifice. Can they belive that they are doing Christ's bidding by heaping scorn and invective on Muslims? Rathe rthan defending Christ, they are defending their crippling false sense of ethnicity and race.

Christians need to tend to themselves. On the Day of Judgement no credit will be given for reviling Muslims or anyone else. Credit wil not be given for taking up arms in defense of Chirst--this is not possible. Christ neither asked nor needs warriors of the gun and sword; Christ needs warriors of the spirit; the greatest fight is to keep from losing one's own soul.

"Sola Scriptura".

I do agree with Rick though that Muslims MUST police themselves and worry about the big picture and not some stupid cartoons.

Muslim immigrants to places like Denmark seem quite happy to accept the benefits of living in a free society and to have escaped the hell-holes from which they've come. Unfortunately, a few (and I emphasize the word "few") seem to have no appreciation for the values of the countries that have offered them a chance at a better life. I guess this is the old tension between an assimilationist view and the "mosaic of many cultures" view. But, surely, it's not too much to ask that these immigrants accept the basic values of the societies they've chosen to live in; e.g., freedom of speech.

Hey Blank, no apology neccessary becasue I offer no retraction of my view. I read more news than the average person and my perception is that many Muslims suffer from a severe lack of introspective self policing.

Its not my fault that Muslims are treated poorly in this country or any other. All we have is free speech to protect ourslevs from any facist or totalitarian control. I dont own a gun, but when organized religion (Muslim or Christian or Jew) tries to control what I can read or think then I do think about getting a gun.

I'm not sure how a cartoon that mocks suicide bombers by telling them that heaven has run out of virgins can be interpreted as a "hate-fest". Unless one is a suicide bomber, or supports their activities.

ChuckB,
no-one is bashing Islam per se. We are bashing intolrence.

Ester,
The reason there was no protest because some of it was true, what would the Jews protest about? They didn't believe Christ, they beat him, they tortured him, they helped KILL him, anything else did I leave out!!!

What would happen to me in DC, if I made a cartoon about bush in the same manner, I would be arrested and held for being a terrorist, and have all my phone calls listened too, as well as having my emails read. Is that also a freedom you claim....Freedom of speech, what about freedom of living

"So, why is Denmark being ambivalent about calling to task someone defaming Islam? I think the answer is clear, i.e., cultural and racial bias."

I'm amazed you could "clearly" make this deduction from a snippet of a press release. The fact that he was extradicted does not mean that all of the listed offenses are punishable in Denmark. That is an embarassing non-sequitur.

I again offer the example of Holocaust denial being legal in Denmark--this has been tested in the courts. Do you think a couple of satirical cartoons are more offensive to Muslims than denial of the Holocaust is offensive to Jews? Please.

american muslim
I hate to say this but you are an idiot and must never look at the editorial page cartoons in U.S. papers

isnt it odd, that the perpretrator of the crime claims to be the victim.

it is all a part of the campaign, to make themselves out to be the victim, with invented stories, false allegations, and imagined slights. Part of a campaign of incitement.

The problem is that the Danish government contributes to it, and so does this newspaper.

First of all, the Danish government got itself started with this with it semi-official statment showing support for what it termed (incorrectly so) the 'resistance movement' (referring to the terror attacks in Israel.

The newspaper should ignore the criticism, and the hulabalooo - every expression of regret, every attempt at applogy merely plays into the hands of the incitors, as it makes it appear as if the the newspaper did something wrong. It is an admission, and hence fuels the agitiation.

Egypt cancels the meeting to discuss the million dollar foreign aid from Denmark - good, they don't need the money. And Denmark doesn't need to beg them to take it.

The Arabs are calling for a boycott -they won't by any Danish products anymore - fine. And Gaza they riot against the EU and burn the Danish flag.
And in response Denmark should immediately cease sending any money to the PA government, and should cease sending any money to the UNRWA.

Mark,

"Karim,
Yes some Jews boycoted Mel Gibson (Passion of Christ), but I didn't see a world wide rant like the one we are discussing here."

The leading Jewish ADL (Anti-defamation League) strongly condemned the movie.

Below is ADL statement about the movie:

http://www.adl.org/presrele/mise_00/4275_00.asp

Why wasn't the movie regarded as a platform for "exchanging ideas"?

Why did ADL, along with many other groups (listed in their statement), object to the movie?

isnt it odd, that the perpretrator of the crime claims to be the victim.

it is all a part of the campaign, to make themselves out to be the victim, with invented stories, false allegations, and imagined slights. Part of a campaign of incitement.

The problem is that the Danish government contributes to it, and so does this newspaper.

First of all, the Danish government got itself started with this with it semi-official statment showing support for what it termed (incorrectly so) the 'resistance movement' (referring to the terror attacks in Israel.

The newspaper should ignore the criticism, and the hulabalooo - every expression of regret, every attempt at applogy merely plays into the hands of the incitors, as it makes it appear as if the the newspaper did something wrong. It is an admission, and hence fuels the agitiation.

Egypt cancels the meeting to discuss the million dollar foreign aid from Denmark - good, they don't need the money. And Denmark doesn't need to beg them to take it.

The Arabs are calling for a boycott -they won't by any Danish products anymore - fine. And Gaza they riot against the EU and burn the Danish flag.
And in response Denmark should immediately cease sending any money to the PA government, and should cease sending any money to the UNRWA.

lost in all this debate is the point of Morley's article - the paper has apologized, yet "In the Persian Gulf, the apology is being met with open disdain, according to the Khaleej Times. Muslim "fury" is growing, reports Aljazeera.net."

OK, so an apology isn't good enough. what is? it's absurd for anyone to ask for govt action, by the way, given that the paper apparently didn't break any danish laws. so again - what do the protesters want now?

From what I'm gathering it's considered blasphemy if you make/print a picture of the prophet. Correct?

Why would a western country let one of there news publications let them print it and then have another publication reprint them some months later???

I don't get that.

Anon, why do you have to call me names?

Why cannot we have a civil discourse? You know less of me than I do of Islam, and yet you call me a bigot.

"Ester,
The reason there was no protest because some of it was true, what would the Jews protest about? They didn't believe Christ, they beat him, they tortured him, they helped KILL him, anything else did I leave out!!!"

dude. whoa. i think you must have OD'ed on the ritalin today. we'll talk when you've purged.

Good luck to the cartoonist. There have been two individuals (I believe a film director and a reporter) killed rather brutally in Europe in the past couple of years after producing what were viewed as "anti-Islam" works.

Who cares, the point is that the nobody pulled their ambassadors from the US over the movie, sober and stern objections were placed by the ADL and their comments serve us today but the ADL havent killed any fellow Americans recetly so their comments mean more to me than say.. the Saudis

I agree with Liz, we are all grown-ups and we need to be able to have a civil conversation.

Ester,

Yes, the Jews beat, tortured, and helped to kill Christ. But at least they didn't write any offensive cartoon about him...

Wait a second. The Arab countries have the problem with depicting Mohammed as a suicide bomber and yet do not bat an eye when video of hostages having their heads lopped off is posted on web sites for even young Muslim children to see! Cartoons are obscene but real dead bodies are not. What kind of morality does this lunatic fringe of the great religion of Islam display? Certainly none that I would be proud of. Before I would go around criticizing other nations freedom of speech I would get my own house in oreer and allowing this kind of barbarism in newspapers and web sites, as well as treating sexual activity AS WORSE THAN VIOLENCE displays a morality that any decent individual would find DISGUSTING.

Karim - see my above comment. Objecting to the movie isn't the same as taking to the streets, firing automatic weapons into the air, boycotting Mel Gibson, or demanding an apology from the US government. The ADL -- which represents a lot of people, maybe, although not me -- is allowed to have an opinion and to state its opinion.

The movie played in the US for a long time and no one was hurt, no one died. No Jews interfered with the showing of it. Seriously, if the Arab world were reacting that way, do you think anyone commenting here would have a problem?

Here's a link to the pictures.
http://www.di2.nu/files/Muhammed_Cartoons_Jyllands_Posten.html

Ester,

"Karim: Honestly, I don't think the Danish cartoons were meant to be a hate fest either. They were satire. Really! In bad taste? Yes. Would I print them, or laugh at them? No. But it's exaggerating to call them bigotry and racism."

Not all of those cartoons offended Muslims in the Arab world. It is true that Muslims object to drawing of their prophet but this is not the first time such thing was done.

In my opinion, the problem is the one drawing where they draw Mohammed's face in the shape of a bomb with a fuse lit on it.

You also have to understand how the drawings came to be published in the first place.

One of the editors of the newspaper called for "artists" to send in drawings of Mohammed in order to "test" the tolerance of Muslims in Denmark.

They received many drawings and then picked up few and published them.

Do you call this satire in the artistic way ?

Exactly!!! I didn't see the Prophet Muhammad protecting those pilgrims killed in Mecca stampede. Wake-up and smell the fresh air people! Get educated and start contributing to society. Stop all these religious nonsense. Don't worry about the after life because there is no heaven or hell.

"I respect the Danes for having their, and living by, their convictions. The Muslims had better enter the real world and not some fictious world of 600 AD"

Karim,
Objecting is freedom of speech going balistic is stupid. No one burnt a flag or made threats on innocent people because of the Passion of Christ. You are comparing apples and donuts.

"One of the editors of the newspaper called for "artists" to send in drawings of Mohammed in order to "test" the tolerance of Muslims in Denmark."

Consider this parallel scenario:

How would you feel about an article being published which contained interviews with various people, asking for their opinion of Muhammad? Suppose one of the interviewees answered "I think Muhammad was a murderer" or something of the sort. Do you think the newspaper would be anti-Islamic in publishing such an interview?

If the newspaper really did solicit artists to create depictions of Muhammad then their only "sin" is in asking Muhammad to be depicted in the first place, and in exercising poor taste in the chosen drawings. But aside from the visual aspect, I don't see it as fundamentally different from the imaginary scenario outlined above.

Certainly they expected a reaction, but I don't think anyone could have expected things to get as out of hand as they did. My personal belief is that the disproportionate reaction was fueled by oppurtunists with an agenda, like the Danish delegation that fabricated extremely offensive drawings and passing them off as those published by JP; or the governments who are now using it as a tool to appease the Muslim population in their countries.

Liz,

I'm sorry you're offended. But why do you shy away from debating the substance of my post? You asked "Where are the 'not in my name' protests". After searching for all of 30-seconds I found it and showed you. How can people like you make these horrible insinuations about a whole religious community without even spending a few seconds to check if your words are true?? Perhaps you should be more careful in future instead of complaining when you get called out on it.

True, I do not know much about you except that you willfully ignore Muslims who condemn terrorism. I believe those who willfully choose to ignore facts to smear another religion are bigots. If that includes you (which I believe it does) so be it. This Islamophobic canard of Muslims condoning terrorism has gone on too long.

If you have a good explanation of why you are making such unfounded insinuations I'm eager to hear it and change my mind. :)

Ester,

You wrote:

"Karim - see my above comment. Objecting to the movie isn't the same as taking to the streets, firing automatic weapons into the air, boycotting Mel Gibson, or demanding an apology from the US government. The ADL -- which represents a lot of people, maybe, although not me -- is allowed to have an opinion and to state its opinion."

Firing automatic weapons into the air is itself not a crime...to each their own traditions, who are you to judge them on that?

Besides the firing only happened in the Palestinian territories, certainly not the majority of Arabs.

Now in your response to your other statement,

How about this:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200409/s1206123.htm

[
Israel's ambassador to Oslo has protested to Norwegian authorities over a sculpture she considers insulting to her country.

It is the second time this year she has protested over a controversial artwork.

In a letter to the culture ministry and the Oslo city authorities, envoy Liora Herzl denounced a statue on display in the central Youngstorget Square which links Israel with the Holocaust, greed and a notorious massacre of Palestinians.
]

Explain to ME what was the Israeli official doing writing to the CULTURE MINISTRY of the Government of NORWAY?

And this:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=91885

"The government of Jordan has agreed to cancel an anti-Semitic series airing on Al-Mamnou TV after receiving a protest letter from 24 American rabbis who had met last month with Jordan's king."

Anon,
The reason Liz and myself feel the way we do, is that we never see Muslim protesting in the street against the likes of Bin Laden and his cronies. We only see Muslims bashing the West. Calling us evil satans. When these are the only images we see we one can only deduce that mainstream Islam doesn't give a rats ass about what anybody thinks. Perception is everything. I never see peaceful candlight vigils by Muslims in the press, only screaming hateful ones. What do you expect of us. We react to what we see. So on the side of peace from Islam we see nothing. If you want us to feel differently take to the streets and spread the message of peace and tolerence. You might be surprised how we might view Islam then.

Apparently even cartoons about Muslims in Scandanavia turns out to be all about jews.
And brings the same sneering posts (many by the same two or three sneerers) always found on such chat rooms. Ugly. If all Muslims can be judged by the ones that practice terror...then all
jews can be bunched into the old cliches, too. If I were a member of the most hated race in the world, century after century, nation after nation...still today, I'd perhaps manage to be more decent. But no...some things never change. Now start screaming.

Apparently even cartoons about Muslims in Scandanavia turns out to be all about jews.
And brings the same sneering posts (many by the same two or three sneerers) always found on such chat rooms. Ugly. If all Muslims can be judged by the ones that practice terror...then all
jews can be bunched into the old cliches, too. If I were a member of the most hated race in the world, century after century, nation after nation...still today, I'd perhaps manage to be more decent. But no...some things never change. Now start screaming as usual.

I agree

WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG??????

'This Islamophobic canard of Muslims condoning terrorism has gone on too long.' Right - we were all just imagining when we saw the Palestinians celebrating 9/11, or when we read some mullahs' justifications for suicide attacks on civilians.

Only an idiot and bigot would think that b/c some Muslims are terrorists all Muslims are terrorists. But 19/19 hijackers were Muslim; ditto the 3/11 and 7/7 bombers, and the bali bombers, and the Khobar towers and US embassy bombers, and etc etc etc. It hardly makes one a bigot to note the pattern.

Guys, I've been to Saudi many times and all that I can tell you (as a british citizen) it that place certainly is 600 years behind the times...

You are not allowed to wear a christian cross, not allowed to have a bible, not allowed to pray (other than Islam), yet this islamofascist country expect other western christian countries (yes denmark is christian by it's constitution) to allow muslims to have mosques and pray and so on.. What a total crock of double standards, if mosques aren't allowed saudi claims religious hatred and so on .. Tell me anyone where is there a church in Saudi...

No Churches but lots of beer let me tell you that, plus all the saudi men travelling to Bahrain / Dubai to drink their bellies full .. talk about hypocritical

No wonder it's 1416 or whatever, maybe in 600 years time they'll have grown up a little .. naaah

Karim - it's funny to me that you'd cite that link in defense of your argument.

It says: "The Syrian-produced television series, called "Al-Shatat," includes horrific distortions of Judaism, including the presentation of the use of a Christian child's blood in preparation of Matzah for Passover, as religious necessity. The graphic episode features Jews kidnapping a Christian boy and slitting his throat to drain his blood, and the brutal execution of a Jew by a "Talmudic" court, by pouring boiling lead down his throat. [Warning: The following two video links to the above episodes are very difficult to view: 1) Christian boy, 2) Talmudic Execution] All of the anti-Semitic libels in this series are presented as fact."

Doesn't that make clear the distinction? A television series full of violent lies about Jews, very likely if not intended to incite hatred (who wouldn't hate a people that kills innocent Christian boys?) -- that would never be shown in America OR in Denmark, nor should it be shown in any country. No comparable series about Muslims would or should be shown either.

All the rabbis in question did was point this out, peacefully, in writing. I don't see the issue here.

My working definition of a "civilized society" is one in which there is no governmental punishment for blasphemy.

Additionally i have an arab friend (he's Jordian and christian), and blatently told me that at school the muslim teachers used to tear up bibles, burn them and so on as blasphemous books..

Wonder where this piece of news was when the koran was flushed down the toilet, ah but again wait.. It's a bible so who cares right.

I care and lots of other people should care as this is doublestandard bullcrap..

Muslims need to get over themselves. They are the world's biggest hypocrites; today they want blood because an 'infidel' depicted their sacrosanct prophet as a suicide bomber. So what? There is no inherent right to not be offended in this country or any other. Besides there is nothing more offensive than placating an increasingly tyrannical religion that seeks to have it both ways on pretty much anything. The apology was needless, Islam will never be acquiesced until Christianity and Judaism have been eradicated from this world.

Karim,

It was a while ago when I read the article, but I believe the series was produced in Lebanon, not Syria. One thing I am sure about is that the series most definitely did air. I remember it was a Ramadan special that had immense popularity.

The point is that hatred against Jews (Monkeys and Pigs) and Christians (Crusaders) are common in the media in that part of the world. The freakin' tsunami last year was a result of a secret weapon detonated underwater by Israel and the U.S., according to one Egyption paper. Not reliegious hatred, per se, but certainly inflamatory.

Be like Michael Jackson (except for the molesting boys part) and start with the man in the mirror. Maybe people will take Muslim grievances more seriously.

As for multiculturalism, I live in Toronto. Multiculturalism has been enshrined in our constitution since the early 80's. While I am a second generation Canadian, my grandparents being immigrants, I have to take issue with this policy. The problem is that it creates the ghettoization of society. Everybody comes here and brings there hang-ups and fights with them. I think the U.S. got it right with their melting pot. You can hang on to your heritage there, but you are expected to be an American first.

Remember the outcry about the "HOLIDAY" tree and not the "CHRISTMAS" tree by the right wing Christians (who helped the he "Leader of the Free World" win the elections). All this over a symbol that really does not even have any connection with the real meaning of Christmas....paint a Swastika on a synagogue and the Jewish community shouts anti-semitism for the whole world to hear. Where the f*** is Freedom of Speech here? Oh wait a minute, maybe its part of the scripted news that we hear each day from the news media!!! Talk about propoganda!!

Maybe we can post comics of the Pope representing the Catholic Church as molesting kids and then all laugh about it in the name Freedom of Speech! What do you think about that???

Gary,
Were you at Gitmo, a prisoner, when you saythe bible was torn up (yea, right) and
do even you see the difference?

Mark:

"Objecting is freedom of speech going balistic is stupid. No one burnt a flag or made threats on innocent people because of the Passion of Christ. You are comparing apples and donuts."

Cerainly the Passion of Christ controversy was an INTERNAL issue within the US. What flags were people going to burn? their own?

As to death threats, they do occur in the US, and usually in response to what someone says or writes.

One good example related to the subject is what Columbia Professor Edward Said suffered because of his academic views:

http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/arts/features/2038/

[
He is accustomed to media vilification -- even death threats. This, after all, is a man who has been publicly reviled as a Nazi, denounced as the "Professor of Terror," and only half jokingly referred to as "Arafat's Man in New York" -- at a time when Arafat was considered one of the world's most dangerous guerrilla leaders. During the mid-eighties, the NYPD deemed Said's physical safety so precarious it had a panic button installed in his apartment.
]

Maybe the NYPD was just paranoid?? I mean, who in the U.S.A would try to kill someone because of what they write!!! It is unheard of!!

Except this:

http://www.fbi.gov/mostwant/seekinfo/odeh.htm

and this:

http://www.arabamericannews.com/newsarticle.php?articleid=3468

[
Washington - JDL leader Earl Krugel, was finally sentenced to 20 years for his role in a 2001 plot to blow up a Los Angeles-area mosque, the office of an Arab-American congressman, and the office of the Muslim Public Affairs Council.

At the sentencing Krugel revealed one name linked to the Odeh investigation that had not been previously known. The judge seriously admonished Krugel for withholding this information for the past 20 years. The JDL has been responsible for at least 40 terrorist acts in the United States since its inception in 1968, according to the FBI.
]

Jan,

Your lack of knowledge is striking! No Muslim begs anything from the Prophet. Even if they did, it would be blasphemy! Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was a human being after all. He was not son/ daughter/ nephew/ cousin of God. But he was a man of modesty, generosity, justice, mercy and compassion. He was sent to the World go convey the last message of God. After this message, there will be no further prophets, holy books, religions etc!

Those people died because the security measurements were inadequate. Because there were almost 3 million pilgrims doing their rituals in one place, almost simultaneously.

Consider a city comrising 3 million resident. Every days may people die because of natural or artificial reasons. Most of the pilgrims were relatively older people, it is more likely that the number of people died will be higher.

We do not beg anything from the Prophet. When we need something, we pray to God. He is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. He created the Earth and all Universe. He will judge all human beings on the day of Judgement according to how much we followed His message, and how we were in the World.

Our Prophet is our leader, teacher, guide and our role model. God conveyed the message through our Prophet and he lived the religion in his flesh and blood body and his superior character. We learned how to be a good human being, how to be a good father/ mother/ spouse/ citizen from him. He taught us that every act of evil is a sin and we will be penalized for these act in the Hereafter, like lying, stealing, fornication, gambling, bribing, deceiving, treating our parents and elderly badly, sexual perversion, consuming alcohol, drugs, gossipping, back-biting etc.

Islam dictates that "The best among you is the one who is the most beneficial to other fellow human beings". That is how I was raised by my parents. Islam prohibits everthing deemed to be immoral, wrong, disgusting, illegitimate, deceptive. This principles are the principles that governs my daily activities.

Anyone strayed from the path of Islam is considered to be conceding their Islamic character.

That is all. Peace.

Mark says:

"The reason Liz and myself feel the way we do, is that we never see Muslim protesting in the street against the likes of Bin Laden and his cronies. We only see Muslims bashing the West.... So on the side of peace from Islam we see nothing."

I just posted one link. As I stated there are hundreds more available within 30-second reach with Google.

I reiterate that those who choose to ignore clear and obvious examples of Muslims Condemning terrorism are Islamofacist bigots.

"If you want us to feel differently take to the streets and spread the message of peace and tolerence. You might be surprised how we might view Islam then."

Given your willful avoidance of examples of Muslims who protest terrorism, I would fully expect you to ignore any evidence of Muslims taking to the streets against terrorism.

Yes and all British are drunks and war mongerors (I hope I spelled that correctly)

Steve, I'm glad you said that you are a British Citizen, otherwise we would have confused you for one of us Americans.

Why do you think we want to bring democracy to the Middle East? Shouldn't we have started with Saudi Arabia, instead of Iraq? We already have the OIL from Saudi, but needed Iraqi OIL. Why are we proctecting the OIL ministeries instead of our own people?

Someone said it earlier that this is all about OIL....

But that changes the subject...

Why are Muslims so backwards?

Because we need people like Mark, Liz, Hank and Steven to tell all the American Muslims to be more like them and degrade there religion, make fun of there GOD, and stop protesting because we sure wouldn't do it in America.

Lol

This is one of the dumbest things I have seen discussed in a forum in a long time.
We all know that when the argument is religion no one can win.

My religion is better than your? My teaches me more than yours? My religion hasn't killed anyone in a thousand years?
Mine just slaughtered some poor reporter?

I think we should never be able to bring religion in to a forum because it turns good people mean and mean people down right stupid.

Just a thought.

Sorry for the rant and if I've offended anyone please forgive me for that was not my intent....

Blank,
Painting an offensive image on a Jewish Temple, or a Mosque is not freedom of speech. It is meant to forment hatred,

Blank,
I did not tell anyone to degrade their religion. I have only said we all need to be tolorent I guess your to thick to get it.

CE said "Only an idiot and bigot would think that b/c some Muslims are terrorists all Muslims are terrorists. But 19/19 hijackers were Muslim; ditto the 3/11 and 7/7 bombers, and the bali bombers, and the Khobar towers and US embassy bombers, and etc etc etc. It hardly makes one a bigot to note the pattern."

While we are noting such patterns, I would like to consider a few more:

1) Oklahoma City Bombing (Christian)
2) Eric Rudolph Assination of Abortion Doctors (Christian)
3) Genocide in Rwanda (Christian)
4) Genocide in Bosnia (Christian)
etc, etc,
5) Abu Ghraib (Christian... they mentioned Jesus's name while torturing)

It is exceedingly interesting that those who are most interested in noting such patterns (as CE clearly is) often focus patterns of only one religion.

I believe that those who suggest that most modern-day violence is conducted by Muslims are propogating an Islamophobic canard that simply wilts under critical scrutiny.

Per, sorry for my "embarrassing non-sequitur". I erroneously concluded that the Danish high court extradition ruling implied that Denmark has a law banning holocaust denial. However, I don't believe that it would be a non-sequitur to assume that the court felt that holocaust denial is repugnant or dangerous (one can't shout "fire" in a crowded theater) enough to obviate the principle of free speech.

No, I don't think a couple of satirical cartoons are more offensive than holocaust denial, but such cartoons are offensive. Are you implying that Muslims shouldn't take offense to what they perceive as a desecration of their Prophet? Are there special groups towards which one should be more sensitive than others? If so, why? Would Christians be unreasonable to be offended by offensive depictions of Christ?

I agree and I also know that no major religion preaches hatred.
Thats why we need all Muslims to stand up against oppression in there own countries and tell the terrorists to stop taking there religion hostage.

But we also need to stop charaticizing every Muslim that has a opinion that doesn't conform to our principles as being closed minded.

People preach hatred not religions.

Why do the people in the middle east hate us? Because we are not a poor country, most of us have homes, multiple cars, tv's, and all the ammenities that they cannot afford. And then they see us telling them that the one person that cares for them is a terrorist and that there Imam is a terrorist, and that they need to stand up for themselves.
How can they do that when all they have is religion, illetracy, hunger and no future.
Why are more and more youths turning to gangs to fill needs?
I think we need to be a little more tollerable of people religious views regardless of how we may see them, and that is more for the Muslims on this forum.

Anon Your right about Bosnia and Oklahoma City. Don't know about Rawanda. But a Muslim scholar said not to long ago All Muslims are not terrorists...Most terrorist are Muslim. That is a sad fact.

Some of the commentators put themselves in a huge fallacy.

They judge Islam according to what mullah A says, what terror organization B do, or what King Sultan C says. They do not represent Islam and they are not authorized to do so. If you want to learn Islam, read Koran and Hadith from the original sources, from A to Z. Try to get the whole picture. If someone brings you a twisted remark and claims that it belongs to Islam, you will be trapped.

If you would like to be enlightened, I suggest you read the following authors: John Esposito, Karen Armstrong, Murad Hilfried Hofmann, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Annemarie Schimmel, Tariq Ramadan, Fethullah Gulen etc. You will get a good understanding of what it means. They are available at Amazon.com.

Mark, I am thick but not they way you are looking at it. Lol

Sorry dumb joke

Ester,

"Doesn't that make clear the distinction? A television series full of violent lies about Jews, very likely if not intended to incite hatred (who wouldn't hate a people that kills innocent Christian boys?) -- that would never be shown in America OR in Denmark, nor should it be shown in any country. No comparable series about Muslims would or should be shown either."

I can't believe you wrote that!

How many US movies showed Muslims and Arabs as terrorists since the 70s? How many of them were exported outside of America?

The Syrian movie (which I condemn) was in Arabic and most Arab states refused to air it. It was not exported all over the world.

Let's take a look at the "civilized" US movie industry..

Dr. Jack Shaheen examied about 1000 US films:

http://gpn.unl.edu/cml/cml_product.asp?catalog_name=GPN&product_id=1428

[
Reel Bad Arabs: How Hollywood Vilifies a People is a timely, groundbreaking book which examines the proliferation of movies featuring machine-gun wielding and bomb-blowing "evil" Arabs - from cinema's earliest days to contemporary Hollywood blockbusters. Award-winning film authority Jack G. Shaheen presents the powerful case that "Arab" has remained Hollywood's shameless shorthand for "bad guy" long after the movie industry has shifted its portrayal of other minority groups. This comprehensive study looks at nearly one thousand films, arranged alphabetically in chapters such as "Villains," "Sheiks," "Cameos," and "Cliffhangers." Powerful, urgent -- and a must-read reference for any media, cultural or film studies course!

]

And this is an example of lies spread against Arabs:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_22_118/ai_77435008

[
...points out such elements in a distinguished film like Patton, in which George C. Scott, in the role of the American general, looks over the site of the battle of Carthage in Tunisia and recalls: "The brave Carthaginians defending the city were attacked by three Roman legions and massacred. Arab women stripped them of their tunics and their swords and lances ..." (emphasis added).

The battle at Carthage took place 2,000 years ago; Arabs did not enter that part of North Africa for another 800 years. The real Patton was a historian; he would have known better. And so should we.
]

The thing is you probably don't even know that you have been subjected to decades-old anti-Arab Anti-Muslim propaganda by Hollywood.

Nancylee, this is not a rumour, this is a fact, i wasn't at gitmo when they allegedly flushed a Koran down the toilet, but my friend was certainly at the school when they burnt the bible in front of his eyes.

Another colleage of mine in the middle east has a muslim teacher tell his christian son that jesus wasn't crucified (muslims don't believe this) and that their son was believing in a false religion...

Don't tell me Islam preches peace, that may have been the intent, but thats certainly not the way it is today.. The only people the muslims have to blame for that is themselves, they are the ones whose killing, suicide, flag-burning etc leads so-called "westerns" to see islam the way they are portraying it .. Which is not necessarily the way the Koran teaches it .. although for a holy book it does say killing kaffurs (infidels) is permissible.. and it says this many times in varying contexts and forms.

Blank,

Yes Muslims have a right to be insulted or not insulted, but when you go on an over the top , thearten inocent people and demand a UN resolution. Then that is a bit to much.

What is a terrorist?

In some parts of the world we are considered terrorists.

He who has the power writes history.

We are doing that now, the Egyptions did it, the Romans, Greeks, Turks, Vikings, British, Spaniards, French, Danish and a whole slew of others.

It's a perception now that we are doing the same.

A terrorist is someone who comes from another land and blows up incocent people of another land. 9/11!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Vahit

OK, now explain to me the pictures i see on the news from Gaza where they are burning the flag of Denmark and pictures of our prime minister, chanting "death to Denmark, war on Denmark, islam will be your grave". Are they not muslims?

Blank,

"However, I don't believe that it would be a non-sequitur to assume that the court felt that holocaust denial is repugnant or dangerous (one can't shout "fire" in a crowded theater) enough to obviate the principle of free speech."

The primary purpose of the Danish courts is to implement the letter and spirit of Danish law. I'm not sure what you intend to convey by referring to the feelings of the court. I mean, I'm sure the members of the High Court personally feel Holocaust denial to be a repugnant and unscientific stance, as I think all reasonable people would.

I originally gave the Holocaust denial example to counter the claim that the corresponding situation with Jews involved would have resulted in a different legal outcome. That was the only intent of the example.

"No, I don't think a couple of satirical cartoons are more offensive than holocaust denial, but such cartoons are offensive. Are you implying that Muslims shouldn't take offense to what they perceive as a desecration of their Prophet?"

Of course they are entitled to feeling offended, as members of a political party might also be entitled in finding scathing satire directed at their leader offensive.

The question is whether their reaction was proportionate to the offense, and whether religious sensibilities should take precedence over something as fundamental to Western democracies as freedom of speech and expression.

"Are there special groups towards which one should be more sensitive than others?"

Legally speaking? No, I don't think so.

Jan,

No one is trying to say "my religion is better than yours", neither am I. Religion in a matter of faith. If you feel like it, you believe it. It is something you feel in your heart and approve with your intellect. That is it.

We do not force or try to force anyone to believe our religion. We can invite them kindly. If they accept it, that is wonderful, otherwise it is their own business, we will not persecute them.

See, you have a lot of things to say, but much of it is backed up by biased knowledge. Do not waste your intellect, be informed.

There are some people who do not know anything, and they do not know what they do not know! Do not be one of those.

Anon,

thats hardly true, after all Osama was blowing up innocent Saudi people.

A terrorist is someone who performs acts of terror on innocent people as a means to fulfill a political end.

Terrorism will never get you what you want, people will never give in to it.

A comment on France:
In France you are allowed to display swastikas, advocate the legalisation of mariuana, etc, according to the _constitution_. However, these things are forbidden by the _law_. How is this possible? on might ask oneself.
The reason is that to test the constitutionality of a law you have to have either the president, the prime minister or (I think) 50 members of parliament or senators making the request for you.

mark,

who were acted against UN resolutions in 2003? but it was for a good (!) cause, wasn't it? operation iraqi freedom (!). yes, they freed them, but freed them from "life". how many lives? 100,000. they freed them, but freed from arms, legs, eyes, heads! how many several hundreds of thousands!

ewww! it smells "oil" here!

Vahit,
A Muslim gave me a book "Understanding Islam" within the first few pages I learned that if I did not embrace Islam I was an infidel and to be condemed forever. Made me know right away that Islam was not for me. Total intolerance.

Vahit wrote:
"No one is trying to say "my religion is better than yours", neither am I"

I believe you believe that Vahit, but when it comes to Islam in general that is not the case. Many Islamic countries do not allow other religions to be practiced. Islam means surrender. You are not asked to believe in Mohammed, you are told to. If Islam was as benevolent as you say, the ME would be as multicultural as Turkey or the Balkens. Turkey is secular thus allowing the multiculturalism and I am sure most Muslims in Turkey want to keep it that way, but as a religion, Islam at its root is not benevolent toward those who do not believe in it. And it is this root of Islam that is being used by Islamists to threaten non-Muslims. Muslims must state clearly and continuously that this is wrong and goes against the faith. Many are, but not enough.

Reader,
I don't understand the point you are making. Muslim are asking in light of these cartoons for a UN resolution against free speech relative to religion. Do you read the papers?

Well I hope I set the record straight for once and all.

I will summarize the few misconceptions that I read today:

1-) The protests have been confined to the Arab world so far, and were started in the Gulf (Saudi, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, etc). In these countries, protests were peaceful in the form of boycott of Danish products.

2-) Arab-Muslims only make up 22% of all Muslims in the world. Please DO NOT GENERALIZE.

3-) The firing of automatic weapons as a way of protesting the incident occurred in the Palestinian territories, not all over the Arab world or the Muslim world. To each its own. PLEASE DO NOT GENERALIZE.

4-) Muslims in general object to the drawing of their prophet Mohammed. The problem seems to be related to one of the drawings showing Mohammed's face in the same of a bomb.

5-) Every people, including Arabs and Muslims, have the right to protest against whatever they deem offensive. America or Denmark can not set the standard for other people. To each its own. Protests of course should not lead to any harm to any people.

6-) Muslims regard Jesus and Moses as valid prophets. Therefore there are never any insults directed at them by Muslims.

7-)There is a problem of anti-semitism in some Arab media outlets (mainly directly at Israeli) but that does not justify spreading and promoting anti-Muslim feeling. Arab nations are trying to fight anti-semitism (example: Jordan canceling an anti-Semitic mini-series).

In response to Vahit, I know for a fact that if you are a muslim and you have a non-muslim friend who dies you are not allowed to pray for him...

The reason for this is because he is a kaffur and will be burning in hell and allah will not permit you to pray for him .. This i heard directly from an islamic cleric.

Nice and tolerable towards other religions and other people, if you're not Muslim then die and rot in hell.

additionally the chapter has been closed, if god spoke to you it would not be true cos muhammad said that god would speak no more... Ever.. Chapter closed..

Anon, this is a discussion of Muslim reactions to some cartoons in the Danish press; that's why people are focusing on Muslims here. Not because they're blind to the fact that murderers and the like come from all faiths. that goes without saying. You are the one who seems to have difficulty conceding that point.

Your examples show, however, that the US acts vs violent Christian extremists in its midst or reach, as it now is vs violent Muslim extremists. McVeigh was executed, and Rudolph is on trial and facing the death penalty. The guards at abu ghraib (whatever their faith) are in prison. Rwanda was tragic but the US acted (albeit very late) to end the Bosnian genocide, on the part of Muslims in fact. ditto in kosovo.

Karim..

PEACEFUL, thats a laugh, burning flags, denouncing there should be war on Denmark, saying it should be a legimitate terrorist target..

Is this ISLAMS's definition of PEACEFUL?

Vahit

I am an atheist, so in my book, all religions are "silly". I am not claiming that my religion(or lack of) is better or worse than yours, but WHY are they wanting war with Denmark if they are so tolerant and peace-loving as you say? Why are they burning flags and pictures?(which doesn't really upset me, i think its pretty childish).

Why is Saudi-arabia closed for me as an atheist? Or if i was a jew? Is that really tolerance?

Jan says: "OK, now explain to me the pictures i see on the news from Gaza where they are burning the flag of Denmark and pictures of our prime minister, chanting "death to Denmark, war on Denmark, islam will be your grave". Are they not muslims?"

So, Denmark is allowed to slander and insult, but the people who were insulted are not allowed to show their anger! Personally, I would not burn any country's flag, because it is symbol of national honor. I find it wrong. But it is just like what our Prophet means to us. Actually, it is much more!

You are saying, you can slap me but I cannot slap you back!? What makes your superior to me?

Vahit,

Where in the world do you get off spewing this crap? You say that your religion is so freaking special that it suspends the free speech rights of Westerners and yet you claim not to be stating that your religion is better than others. Then what are you saying? Why are my liberties at risk to appease your religious sensibilities? I do not care one bit about your religion no matter the name for it is still an opiate. You dare lecture others about being informed? This coming from an obviously stunted pre-enlightenment mentality? Go worship your pathetic "God" or "Mohammed" or iman or whatever. I don't care how you choose to delude yourself. And I don't care if you don't understand freedom; just don't dare to tread on mine.

CE
Shouldn't have mentioned Bosnia. I got slammed on that because the US was slow to act.

Saudi is closed to any other religion, by LAW if you are a citizen you have to be a muslim, there are 3 death penalities in Saudi.

1/ Drug Trafficking
2/ Rape / Murder
3/ Apostosy

The third one ? thats effectively renouncing your religion, if you say i am no longer muslim but want to be christian, you are committing a crime against islam and that is punishable by death.

How could ANY father murder his own daughter because of a religious belief ? that is sick.. Family before country before god!

"Anon Your right about Bosnia and Oklahoma City. Don't know about Rawanda."

If you need to learn about the Christian-on-Christian Genocide perpetrated in Rwanada (during which many Rwandan Muslims harbored and hid potential genocide victims) visit this WashPost story: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53018-2002Sep22.html

Here is the salient quote from that article: "Human rights groups have documented several incidents in which Christian clerics allowed Tutsis to seek refuge in churches, then surrendered them to Hutu death squads, as well as instances of Hutu priests and ministers encouraging their congregations to kill Tutsis. Today some churches serve as memorials to the many people slaughtered among their pews."

Mark Says:
"But a Muslim scholar said not to long ago All Muslims are not terrorists...Most terrorist are Muslim. That is a sad fact."

I'm not sure that's true. Certainly, I will concede that most of the non-state sponsors of political violence targetting civilins that I see seem to be Muslim.

I find it interesting that one of the bloggers who took the Danish to task noted that Christians and Jews are "People of the Book", but left the Hindus, Daoists, Buddhists and others out of the category. So I guess that is why it was OK to try and destroy/deface the Buddhas in Bamiyan, Afghanistan, despite an international outcry (I don't know about anyone else, but I was greatly offended). I'm bemused by the "harm" that 1.5 billion Muslims incurred via these cartoons, was it their pride that took the hit?

Karim,

I understand your point, but again I think it's a problem of scope. (And for the record, I was a film major.)

Though I've never seen Patton, I know there was a spate of movies that featured lots of Arab Muslims as terrorists during the 70s. Coincidentally, at the same time, you can't deny that Arab Muslim terrorism was prevalent (i.e., the Munich olympics, the Iranian hostage crisis. Full list here: http://terrorism.grady.uga.edu/history/1970s.html.)

Likewise, during the 80s, when Communism was America's biggest fear, the bad guys morphed into Russians.

NOW: I'm not saying that excuses any of it. I don't think any ethnic group should be a shorthand for the enemy. I don't think it's productive for America, and I understand how it's infuriating to Arab Muslims.

But you're comparing *fictional* movies that play on stereotypes of Arab Muslims with a series that asserted itself to be *truth* and was, in actuality, nothing but vicious, hate-mongering lies about the Jewish people. I think the distinction is clear.

Karim

Then go to those places where gentlemen were firing automatic weapons in the air and explain to them that they are not in Denmark. People in Denmark don't go to the streets and fire in the air to show that they don't like the laws of another country (whic allows freedom of speech)... I would love to see you marching hand in hand with those gentlemen who fire in the air.

Maybe I am wrong, but Denmark gave new home for muslims. Damn, Nordish people, they must be weird

Its easy. Don't be religious.

Theres no man in the sky. Wake up.

I would like to offer an observation. Islam is no more inherently violent or intolerant than any other major religion--certainly no more so than the Judaism of the Old Testament or the Christianity of the some of the Gospels. Nor are the passages contained in the Koran any more unambiguous and uncontradictory than those contained in the Old and New Testatments. One can find support for almost any idea in any of these writings. Therein lies the danger--the usurpation of religious faith for the furtherance of political power. Historically, most instances of "religious" intolerance/violence have arisen when government and religion are merged into a single institution, e.g. the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Talliban, even Communism. To say that Islam is a religion of violence is false. But it is equally ingenuous to claim that Islam has not, and is not now being used, to promote violence. The motivation of the advocates is not to bring salvation or enlightenment, it's to gain and/or to maintain power, pure and simple. And I regret to add that some of the Moslem posters in this forum, although I have no doubt personally abhor what is being advocated in the name of Islam, by their pacifity toward the usurpers of Islam and their defensivenss in response to the reactions of Nonmoslems, enable the continued abherration of their faith.

Vahit

I am not superior to anyone, until they prove otherwise(burning flags would be a step in that direction)

So it is ok to declare war if you are angry? Maybe, just maybe, the artists that made the cartoons were angry that they couldn't paint the prophet? Would that make it ok?

We truly have freedom of speech, i can call the queen a fool for smoking or our prime minister an idiot for supporting the war in Iraq.

Can you do the same in Saudi-arabia?

The paper apologized twice now, it is still not good enough. We have bomb-threaths, suicidebomb-threats, storming of offices, boycots, flagburning, beatings and whatnot. Is that tolerant and peace-loving?

Al-jazeera spreading mis-information, showing pictures that the paper never showed(who made them? who knows) and cell-phone text's/SMS that we are burning the Quaran(we dont... and we dont SMS in arabic either)

What i don't fully understand is, where do these people get their guns and money from, they're supposed to be poor right ? yet they walk around in droves firing automatic rifles and so on.

Next time i don't like something i think i'll get out my bazooka and wave it about .. What kind of crap is that

Free expression and inquiry is wholly intertwined with scientific, medical and technological advancement. I haven't seen any of the Islam defenders here explain how they expect their culture(s) to advance without sufficient respect for free expression. It should be fairly obvious that the Islamic world, which was once a source of great learning, has basically stood still for hundreds of years. If you disagree, please identify the significant advances that have come from the Islamic world recently.

Reader you have been running on and on about how the West was so slow to move into Kosovo, Bosnia, Rwanda and Kuwait to save Muslims, but only did so because of oil. Tell me, where were the Muslims countries? When the Tsunami hit, where were the Muslim countries?

You critisize the West, but can't take criticism directed at your dealings.

When the Tsunami hit, in Saudi Arabia, A Professor went on TV and said that "Allah caused the tsunami's because of the homosexuality and fornication"..

Surely Indonesia (as the most populous muslim country) should have risen up in arms against Saudi Arabia during it's time of greatest need.

How would a Christian like a cartoon of Jesus with a suicide belt. It may be legal, but it certainly is in bad taste.

P. J. Casey,
How would a Christian like a cartoon of Jesus with a suicide belt. It may be legal, but it certainly is in bad taste.
I would find it offensive, but then shrug it off to free speech. And free speech is what this all about. I certainly wouldn't go crazy in the streets over it. I would not want my government to tell me to boycot over it. It is just words and pictures.

Its interesting that the Muslim world is outraged by cartoons in a Danish newspaper but at the same time, allow vicious anti-semitic cartoons about Jews and Israel in many Arab and Muslim newspapers.

CE says:

"Your examples show, however, that the US acts vs violent Christian extremists in its midst or reach, as it now is vs violent Muslim extremists... etc"

I don't want to get into this debate with you because that wasn't my point. So please do not try to change the argument.

I was arguing about the Islamophobic canard you made that suggested that most terrorists are Muslims. I gave you examples of MILLIONS of civilians killed by Christians for political reasons in recent years.

Instead of debating or defending that point, you are trying to shift the argument to weather or not Christians terrorists are penalized in the United States legal system. I never even brought up actions of the United States government. What does that have to do with your canard?

If you are going to make Islamophobic & bigotted insinuations, then please don't try to shift the subject when you are called out on them.

Anon,
I feel so sorry for you. You haven't got a clue do you.

I want to know how come the suicide bombers get 72 Virgins... I've never met 72 virgins in my entire life !

booo

Anon,
No-one is defending anyone Catholic, Jew, Hindu or Muslim. People need to live and let live. This is not about the past this is about the right to speak your mind freely. The right live your life the way you want.

They judge Islam according to what mullah A says, what terror organization B do, or what King Sultan C says. They do not represent Islam and they are not authorized to do so. If you want to learn Islam, read Koran and Hadith from the original sources, from A to Z. Try to get the whole picture. If someone brings you a twisted remark and claims that it belongs to Islam, you will be trapped. >>

But that is the point. Westerners form their beliefs off of what they see and hear the most. If we do not see mass rallys of Muslims protesting OBL or car bombers then the message that is sent is that it is okay with them. When a religious "Leader" like Pat Robertson makes some iditotic comment, it is incumbent on the others to stand up and say it is wrong. If not, then we send the message that his comments are our comments.
Islam has a PR problem. You can't video tape hostage executions and have peopel believe it is not a religion taken over by extremists.

Mark,

Hear-Hear your comments! totally agree, whats done is done can't change it..

inciting to commit terror in the name of any religion is farcical, especially when you turn your face and tell me your religion is based on peace.. pff

Dhimmi and the anonymous poster who feel that Jews were in on the torture and murder of Jesus: Such is not the case. This is alleged in only one of the four Gospels ... all written several decades after Jesus' death. This allegation was written at a time when a particular Jewish sect (The Way ... later to be called Christians) was trying to distance itself from other sects of Jews. All Jews were being persecuted by Roman Authority.

Romans killed Jesus. There was some complicity by Roman-appointed Jewish authorities under the partly-Jewish King Herod. To say that Jews of that time wanted a fellow Jew killed by Romans is absurd. Herod was Rome's puppet.

But back to the issue at hand: Check out Greg Nagan's blog on this: http://moronabroad.blogspot.com/

Mark said "This is not about the past this is about the right to speak your mind freely. The right live your life the way you want."

Of course, speak your mind freely! I have never said otherwise.

But when you, CE and Liz make your Islamophobic canards, I will also speak my mind freely and continue to call you on it

And of course the Muslim world should also speak its mind freely about the canards published in a Danish newspaper.

I'm all for free speech.... But think it's quite strange when Islamophobes get their feathers ruffled when Muslims excercise their right to free speech while exposing them as bigots. :)

I'm all for free speech.... But think it's quite strange when Islamophobes get their feathers ruffled when Muslims excercise their right to free speech while exposing them as bigots. :)>>

Interesting. I wonder if the term Westernerphobe or Christianphobe could be applied to Muslims?

Next time you see anyone in the US or Europe firing off weapons burning flags and shouting death to an Islamic country give me a ring. Bottom line is that if the majority of the world sees only your bad side, then you will be considered as such.

Hey Anon

Maybe you can answer what i asked Vahit of: Is it ok to declare war on Denmark etc.?

Anon, you're not reading what i wrote - ie, "Only an idiot and bigot would think that b/c some Muslims are terrorists all Muslims are terrorists." I can't make that any clearer. If that's a bigoted statement in your mind, you've redefined the word 'bigotry'.

as far as 'most terrorists being Muslim" - I didn't say that either. again, you build the straw man, then knock him down.

But I certainly hope you're right, and terror as a tactic has no appeal among Muslims. That will make getting rid of al Queda - who seems fond of it - a breeze.

Like we haven't seen offensive depictions of Christ?? Hell in this country, you can make an offensive depiction of Christ AND have the govt pay you for it.

Jan:

God is not a man or woman. Human beings are subject to be a male or female or she-male! "He" or "She" is actually wrong, but in English it is referred with "He".

God is not in the sky! God is exempt from being in a certain space or time dimension. We are subject to live in a certain place for a certain time.

He is the Creator! Since Hamlet was written by Shakespeare, Eiffel Tower was design by Eiffel, Taj Mahal is built by Babur Shah, so was the universe created by God.

Your own body is marvel of this creation. Every second there are millions of chemical reactions are taking place, billions or electrons are revolving around their nuclei in your body. Are all cells or atoms so smart that they know what to do exactly? Your problem is, you have not even comprehended the very reason why you are living on Earth!

Not recognizing God and not appreciating His blessings is the ultimate sin. He gave you a family, body, soul, shelter, money, possessions, food, water, air, soil, arms, legs, eyes, heart, brain etc. Don't you ever appreciate this. If someone open you a door, you will say thank you. How for a life?!

And more, Hereafter. This life is like field on which we seed plants. These plants represent our deeds. The more good deeds you plant, the more harvest you will reap in the Hereafter.

The most important desire of human beings is to be immortal, eternal. Everyone wants to live forever, yet we die at 60 or 90 or maybe 5! Islam answers this need wonderfully. If someone lives their life as good person, obeying what God says, they will be rewarded with Paradise. And those who did otherwise will penalized by Hell. I did not put these rules, this is what God says. I am just doing my job, trying to be a good human being an every way possible.

What is going to happen after you died? All of our bodies will perish, but how about your soul? Doesn't it make you feel bad, when you think you will vanish someday completely? Don't you feel an existantialistic anguish? Some people quench it with booze, drugs, fornication, orgies etc. It does not make their demise postpone, yet it will be sooner. Booze and drugs are not so healthy!

I asked such questions myself many times. Although i was born and raised in Muslim family, such questions arose many times. I did research and I found that Islam gives me the most satisfactory answers. It has answered each and every question that I have ever asked about life! That is why, I am not in search of anything, I have found the answers after long contempolations.

All I can say to you is, may God give you a vision so that you can see Him.

Blank said: "Next time you see anyone in the US or Europe firing off weapons burning flags and shouting death to an Islamic country give me a ring."

Please see www.littlegreenfootballs.com

Don't you people have the internet??? It's odd how these outlandish assertions are made (See Mark & Liz above) that can easily be debunked by 30 seconds of Googling. Jeez.

re: Pics of Mohmet

Guys, get a sense of humor. There's a great story of a kid who ran into a burning building in WWII to save a picture of the Japanese Emperor because he had been conditioned to equate the picture and the emperor as the same. He burned up.

So, here you have a chance to refuse to commit a similiar sin. A picture is just a picture. Words cannot hurt the prople directed at them, esp if the person is a prophet.

If you don't have a sense of perspective about these kinds of things you wind up in embroiled in hate over every trivial act that comes along.

And its a total waste of energy. Spiritual and physical.

Vahit
Has it answered the question "is it ok to murder people who don't believe as i do".

Anyone one who see's god and then talks about it usually ends up in a mental institute

as for this quote
"Islam answers this need wonderfully. If someone lives their life as good person, obeying what God says, they will be rewarded with Paradise."

am i to take it that according to god is giving out suicide missions to people and inciting all this murder and terror by his children.

If thats true you can take your god and keep him i'll have no party to your twisted beliefs

What about the radio guy that lost his job? Wasn't he just speaking his mind? Yet muslim advocacy groups wouldn't shut up until the station fired him. Its yet another example of islam's duplicity, free speech only if its pro-muslim.

Islam answers this need wonderfully. If someone lives their life as good person, obeying what God says, they will be rewarded with Paradise. And those who did otherwise will penalized by Hell. I did not put these rules, this is what God says. I am just doing my job, trying to be a good human being an every way possible.
______________________________________________
And if you kill yourself and kill infidels you get to hang out with 39 virgins in the afterlife. Woo Hoo!!!

Vahit

I guess that would be a "no-answer"?

In my world the universe was created by the big-bang(until they find a more realistic explanation) and i was made by my mom and dad doing their "thing". When i die, i go in a box and rot or i am burned, thats it. No heaven or hell.

But that's all a little besides the point. You still havent answered anything i asked. Dodging the war-declaration etc. I know it is hard answering for other people. I hear that a cheese-company in Denmark have a heck of a time selling their products because another company made a naughty cartoon!.

To be honest how great would it be if the US posted these pictures.

the only thing arab nations can produce is more arabs and oil (they don't really make oil , they just dig it up).

the GCC is so dependant on all western countries for *everything* that it's just amazing.. i'm for one going to boycott any food/clothing substances made in arab nations.. i suppose not eating falafel i'm pretty safe.. Now where in Dubai can i get some good butter :)

Hey guys,

Listen calm this down. Im with the US navy, 5th Naval Fleet stationed in the Kingdom of Bahrain. Bordered with Saudi Arabia, pretty much center middle east. Those cartoons published in this danish paper, were seriously an outrage. I would not like it if I saw Jesus with a bomb on his head, or anything of the sort in a newspaper here in the Middle East. Being stationed here, I've been taught by the ARAB people themselves that we are acceptable. They respect us, our religion, and treat us as their own. Do we westerners want to portray a wrong image to people here, while at the same time wage wars. Cmon, if we're christians, we have to show tolerance, we have to show them that we're good people. When I go back to my family in Louisiana, I'm going to tell people about how hospitable the Arabs are! Now lets straighten our act. Free Speech or not, why the hatred?

I wish to lodge an offical protest with the UN over this building in Iran

http://www.mikemeaney.com/photos/images/bw16p.jpg

this is offensive to 250million americans who essentially did nothing to hurt iran..

lets all blub and boycott Iranian products, wait . what products (even persian rugs aren't made in iran anymore)

Gary you have an impenetrable brain wall!

If you have read my previous comments here, you will see that I have never overlooked or condones violence or murder in any way! On the contrary, Islam is against harming or killing innocent people. This includes those suicide attacks as well. You are trying to twist my words the way you wan to see.

Don't you worry about my mental health. I do not use tobacco, alcohol, drugs, do not fornicate or do orgies. Rather, I try to understand people, most of the time by putting myself in their shoes. This improved the sense of empathy in my soul. I can understand the grief felt by the relatives of 9/11 victims, grief felt by the Jews whose family members were incinerated by Nazis, or Iraqies whose homes were demolished and families tortured.

As you see, I view life from many perspectives. Yet, you insist to see the World from your own hair-thin angle stubbornly.

I leave you with your ignorance and biases, which seem to be your eternal companions.

Peace to all.

Freedom of Expression versus protection of minorities

In any society, Freedom of Expression is a fundament on which a democratic system is built. It gives the little man, a possibility to raise a voice against tyranny and state oppression, demand the rights and not to be afraid of the power elite. But as it is with every concept, Freedom of Expression can also be used to insult, oppress and create conflicts between various groups. Furthermore, it is sometimes misused to push the unfair opinions of the majority over minorities. And unfortunately, this is exactly, what is happening in Denmark for the last few decades. Seen through today's practices,the noble concept of Freedom of Expression, , is tantamount to, freedom for the journalists, editors and other powerful racist and Islamophobic groups to ridicule, ethnic minorities, their cultures and their faiths.

Sadly enough, Denmark is also one of the very few countries in the Western World where Freedom of Expression takes precedence over human rights of ethnic minorities. This priority is not only liberally taken advantage of, by the Danish media - often intentionally - but has become an accepted norm in the wider society. The judicial system, the politicians and the intellectuals guard this man made principle with great vigour. The ensuing result is a stream of racist statements from politicians of established parties, anti -Islam rhetoric on web sites, public debates degrading minorities, accusing media discussions and outright blasphemic utterances on daily basis.

The latest example of this sad situation is that the largest newspaper in Denmark- Jyllands Posten - commissioned the Danish cartoonists to draw cartoons of Prophet Mohammed. 12 very derogatory and insulting cartoons, depicting the Prophet as a terrorist and women exploiter were published in the newspaper on 30th September 2005. This uncalled for provocation has poisoned the atmosphere and created a conflict between Denmark and the Islamic World and has even reached the United Nations.

It is frustrating to hear and read the arguments being put forward by the newspaper and its allies. The newspaper in a TV interview admitted that their provocation was meant to help the progressive Muslims against the more militant ones. This is a funny argument, because if J.Posten really wanted to help the so-called moderate Muslims, then the last thing they should have done is to insult the religion of Islam and its Prophet. There is not even a little understanding of, how Muslim communities are hurt.

Since in our media monitoring work for the last many years, we have never come across degrading treatment of any other religion, we wish to ask the Danish media in general and newspaper Jyllands Posten in particular; Why pick on Islam? We know that the Danish or any European media would not dare to make fun of sensitive issues in other religions. Can one imagine, J.Posten asking Danish cartoonists to draw derogatory cartoons of Pope, Dalai Lama, Hindu deities or make fun of the Holocaust horrors?

Freedom of Expression is and should be very important to all of us. It must be protected but it has never been unlimited. It is regulated by the law and most important of all, by the moral responsibility of the majority society that must protect the minorities from attacks - physical, verbal, or written. All we are asking is that the politicians must take a stand against the misuse of Freedom of Expression and refrain from supporting the injustices.

Steve,

Will you also tell them about the indian and pakistani workers who work 12hrs a day, 6 days a week for $250 per month (1000 dhs/riyals).

This is slave labour, these guys are forced to live in camps by ARAB so called businessmen, living 10 to a small room and getting treated worse than you would treat your dog.

There were reports in dubai papers over some employer not loaning 50dhs (15 US$) to a worker to goto the doctor, the worker DIED.. What punishment did the employer get, nothing, just a new guy to fill his place

If thats hospitality then i hate to see these guys being greedy and unscrupulous

By showing anger in the most susceptible manner,such as attacking the office of the paper and breaking diplomatic ties.WE have opened the doors to more ridicule by those who are always looking for the opportunity
to slander Islam.Lest we Muslims forget that Prophet Moahmmad(Peace be upon him) would never have told us to kill or insult
the culprits.He would have asked them why
do they think in such a manner and is there
anything that we could do,that would help
you understand better.

Vahit,

I do not have these, while maybe not a scholar, i do have an understanding of Islam, i was not point out flaws in "your" belief but in western perceptions of islam, if you say one thing and media clerics position something else who is listened to.. not you, people on TV, Papers calling for terror and war and so on are how people who are not expose to islam perceive all muslim people (this i know is not true)

I live in the middle east, i have lots of arab friends, NONE of them are offended by this, they say it was stupid and wrong but then they get on with their life.

Tell me, what happens if there is no afterlife (it's not a proven fact), you will have wasted the only life we know for a fact that we have .. this one.

Jan, when you are going home tonight, what happens, if a bus crushes you? You will vanish. You will be nothing, zilch, zero, nill. Why do you even work? You will die anyway. Even if you live 150 years, will you be more happy? But you cannot fake your demise! Try some booze, maybe you will forget it for a while.

You are asking me silly questions. I cannot answer on behalf of the people in S.Arabia or else. But I expressed my personal views here many times. I do not speak their language, have never been there. By the same token, you cannot explain the legitimacy of slavery, Inquisition, Nazism, or KKK. These are evil people (including beheaders, suicide attackers), no matter what their religion is.

I said many times, terrorism is terrorism, there is no justification.

Jan, when you are going home tonight, what happens, if a bus crushes you? You will vanish. You will be nothing, zilch, zero, nill. Why do you even work? You will die anyway. Even if you live 150 years, will you be more happy? But you cannot fake your demise! Try some booze, maybe you will forget it for a while.

You are asking me silly questions. I cannot answer on behalf of the people in S.Arabia or else. But I expressed my personal views here many times. I do not speak their language, have never been there. By the same token, you cannot explain the legitimacy of slavery, Inquisition, Nazism, or KKK. These are evil people (including beheaders, suicide attackers), no matter what their religion is.

I said many times, terrorism is terrorism, there is no justification.

Vahit,

This is exactly it, we are born, live and die, show me any shred of proof anywhere in the whole universe that says there's any more than that, prove to me there's an afterlife, then prove to me that it's exclusive to muslims only

What you can't ? Didn't think so.. This is the point, life this life, i don't need a bible, koran or anything to tell me basic principles like "thou shall not kill etc", basic human cognitive skills tell me this.

Sure there may be more, who know, not me, not you not anyone who is living on this planet

Live your life, love thy neighbor and be true to yourself thats all you can do, my life is mine to live, the choices i make are mine and not "inshallah" or if god wills it...

JW says: "What about the radio guy that lost his job? Wasn't he just speaking his mind? Yet muslim advocacy groups wouldn't shut up until the station fired him. Its yet another example of islam's duplicity, free speech only if its pro-muslim."

Wow, this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the right to free speech which seems to be very common amongst posters in the forum.

The right to free speech doesn't guarantee you from being criticized in return and it doesn't even protect you from people calling for the termination of your employment. The right to free speech does not guarantee you to the right to a job as a radio broadcaster.

Gary

Sir yeah there are lots of arab business men that own billion$ construction companies with Indian and Pakistan workers working day and night and getting payed less than 250 dollars. In Bahrain many get payed 40 dinars, thats a little more than 100 dollars, but hey these workers know what its like to work in the Gulf and they come prepared cause for them 100-250 dollars in their country is heaven, so its all comparative. If today a businessman starts paying more, he's going to lose money and lots of it because if he can get people willing to work day and night for a 250 dollar salary, why not? these people set their own standards because for them this kinda salary back home is a lot!

And by hospitality, I don't know where you live Gary, but if youre in the Middle East, don't tell me, you personally aren't comfortable- more comfortable than you'd be back home. Man i know people here that used to live in trailer parks, now they got maids, they got cooks, and for what? Just cause they got a blue passport, and know some good english. We get treated well here man- they respect us.

No, I am not wasting my life! My life is full of joy and fulfillment. Every time I pray, my soul is rejuvenated and refreshed. I have a good family, a job, a good education, a healthy body and mind. I have people who love me, there are people whom I love very much. This makes me happy. Of course, I would like to be more wealthy. But I would also share it with needy people and charities. Because everyone may not be as lucky as I am. This what Islam advised me. Like the time I donated countless cans of baby formula for Katrina victim (who were mostly Christians). This is joy and happiness. Everyday when I go to bed, I sleep comfortably knowing the fact that I did something good today. Every morning I wake up for the dawn prayer (5-7 am, depending on the season) with the intention that I will do better today. I pray to God to give sustenance and peace for all Muslims and the World. And I do my job. Because this is the way I was raised.

You think booze is good? I see people vomitting in the streets, having sex with whomever they come accross at parties, getting addicted to drugs, robbing stores, banks, killing innocent people for a buck. You think this is fun? It is repugnant. It makes me happier because I am not one of them. There millions of children who do not know their fathers! Or they have 50 candidates for the paternal position, because their mother was quite busy!

Even if there is no Hereafter, what am I going to lose? Nothing! At least I keep my dignity. What if there is Hereafter, what will you do?

If you think this is fun, I will just pass!

As for Mohammed the suicide bomber: "If the shoe fits ...". It is clearly established in Islamic law that murder in the name of their religion is justified. Why aren't the Muslims proud of these images? Hamas is. The imams preach the same thing. Why are the Muslims so offended? It just proves that we in the USA understand accurately what the Muslim religion is all about. The entire history of Islam is one long war ... the history of Christianity (not the Catholic religion) isn't. Countries are what they believe, which is why the USA and the Western world are free and prosperous with freedom of speech and the Muslim world is rich in oil and nothing else except violence.

Steve,

Just because you can pay someone 40dinars doesn't mean you should..

People building the 7 star Burj Al Arab in dubai (where i am) got paid 200$ per month, it costs $1500 per night.

Institute a minimum wage and afford *ALL* people basic human rights, these people are making billions and paying peanuts..

For sure i do have a better standard of living here, but thats not because of hospitality, it's because i pay 0 taxes, and get paid more money by my employer, it has nothing to do with hospitality.
I don't have maids or cooks or anything, i don't want to get sucked into this culture of treating phillipinos or indians, asians like slaves..

If you have a maid, don't pay her 20$ a week because you CAN, pay her what she is worth doing all the crap you don't want to - be a fair personm, you earn $150,000 tax free treat and pay other people fairly and don't take advantage because you can

Locals here don't even pay utility bills, their bills are tacked onto those of expats - so we pay for the locals electricty and water bills... nice scheme eh ?

Additionally don't get me started on the 30-50% yearly rent increases (greedy landlords - this is now capped at 15% annually! where else do you get 15% rent increase year on year)

Dubai is doomed by it's own successes, it's grown too quick, sure it's very open here and i'm respectful of the local cultures and people.. I even took Arabic lesson, but when a muslim preaches then goes drinking and abuses indian/pakistani people sorry but you loose all respect from me...

As for Mohammed the suicide bomber: "If the shoe fits ...". It is clearly established in Islamic law that murder in the name of their religion is justified. Why aren't the Muslims proud of these images? Hamas is. The imams preach the same thing. Why are the Muslims so offended? It just proves that we in the USA understand accurately what the Muslim religion is all about. The entire history of Islam is one long war ... the history of Christianity (not the Catholic religion) isn't. Countries are what they believe, which is why the USA and the Western world are free and prosperous with freedom of speech and the Muslim world is rich in oil and nothing else except violence.

BQ

I can tell you got no idea what is printed in the danish media. Danish media have made TONS of fun with any major religion. Including christianity, the pope and every major political figure around the world. I am not sure about the holocaust though, i don't think anyone can find anything amusing about that. But danes did make fun of nazi's(even when we were occupied by them) and later jew's. We are not racists, we make fun and satire of ALL religions.

Vahit

Yes, i will die, so will we all. We just have to make the best of the time we got in life(the orgie sounds nice though, gotta try that some day). That is why i dont understand why fanatic muslims in Gaza would waste their time burning flags and declaring war on us.

I am just happy i can speak freely and i got a sneaky suspecion that some are jealous that they can't...

Vahit,

I do not have these, while maybe not a scholar, i do have an understanding of Islam, i was not point out flaws in "your" belief but in western perceptions of islam, if you say one thing and media clerics position something else who is listened to.. not you, people on TV, Papers calling for terror and war and so on are how people who are not expose to islam perceive all muslim people (this i know is not true)

I live in the middle east, i have lots of arab friends, NONE of them are offended by this, they say it was stupid and wrong but then they get on with their life.

Tell me, what happens if there is no afterlife (it's not a proven fact), you will have wasted the only life we know for a fact that we have .. this one.

I don't lose any of my dignity the way i life my life, i try to be as respectful as possible, but ultimately everything i say will offend someone, somewhere.

As for the afterlife, we can debate that one in a few more years :)

Vahit, Jan..

Interesting debate, will read the rest of your comments tomorrow morning.. it's late and time for sleep.

Vahit:
don't get me wrong, you are free (and always should be) to believe in whatever you want (except in Saudi if you're non Muslim)..
look at this satire of Jesus from Iran (iranian.com) http://www.iranian.com/Satire/Cartoon/2002/February/Images/jesus.jpg

Where's the outburst, peaceful dialogue should be able to solve all, people in general want to get along, it's just corrupt governments all over the world that can't agree.

Peace all

G

Another fallacy of yours is that you judge Islam by the people you see, who seem to be Muslims. That is where you are losing the grip.

There are a lot of Muslims who exhibit very un-Islamic behavior, and I am quite sad for them, because they are giving a bad name to Islam. And people like myself have to fix this by writing 50 messages to this forum to reveal the truth.

I live in a country where the majority is Christians. They do a lot of extravant, crazy, sometime immoral things. But I do not judge Christianity or Jesus by those acts. Because I have read about Christianity. I know Jesus and Virgin Mary from Koran. There is a special chapter in Koran named "Mariam" means Virgin Mary.

You judge a box by its wrapping paper, where as I judge it by its contents!

Jan,

I wish you had been in the Friday sermons of the mosque that I always attend. In every sermon, the khatib (preacher) mentioned about tolerance, peace, justice, friendship, doing good deeds. However, you are conditioned and bound to your biases and some images that you created in your mind. These curb your vision.

Several months ago, there was a blood donation campaign in our mosque, a lot of people participated. A large sum of money was collected for the victims of Katrina. Yet, such acitivies have never been aired on TV or published in papers.

I think there can only be understanding, if we forget about religion for a little while and deal with real issues:

- torture by governments on many sides
- the issue of starting a war
- taking and killing of hostages
- suicide bombing
- we need oil, they have oil...
- the land for peace issue with Israel/Palestine.
- the lack of competence and honesty here, and lack of freedom there

I think, religion can be used to cloud real problems. We should not be distracted. Oftentimes those who make these emotional fires have ulterior motives.

To Timothy L.:

Yeah, I did!!!! I did speak out against the demolitions. I speak out against unfairness whenever I encounter it.

But so what?! What does that have to do with the question of punishing a whole country and all of its citizens, for what one or more persons have done??

The response to this IS disproportionate, and also stupidly misdirected.

just a few more links to offensive hate material, do you condem this as you condem the danish cartoons..

http://www.iranian.com/Satire/Cartoon/2000/December/jesus.html
http://www.iranian.com/Satire/Cartoon/2005/September/first.html
http://www.iranian.com/Satire/Cartoon/2005/February/pope.html

And this one poking fun at christians
http://www.iranian.com/Satire/Cartoon/2004/November/s6.html

I judge the box by the number of times i see the box doing something it shouldn't be..

If i see 100 muslims pray and then goto the bar, and i see muslims burning flags and waving guns that tells me that Islam is in a crisis to fight against these images..
and honestly, you writing 50 posts isn't going to change one thing..

I don't see hundreds of people drawing images, beating up Muslims in Denmark (danes were beaten my muslims) burning flags etc these may not be a majority of muslim people , but they are giving your religion a bad name..

Where does this come from? It's the mosques that are inciting people into believing that this is the islamic way... therefore muslims are preaching hatred to other muslims who then act on it.. This is truly a crisis and explotation of the weak.

timeout

Gary,

I found that cartoon in the Iranian website hurtful. They should not have been done so. We do not know how Jesus or Muhammad (peace be upon them) looked like.

Nevertheless, some producers insist on depicting him as a blond man with blue eyes and light skin! I do not know how that is possible in the deserts of Jerusalem.

Yo, don't post your ideas as mine by putting my name!

Dear Dave Bob,

I agree with you that it would have been wrong for either the Danish or Norwegian governments to censor the papers, although it might have been diplomatically prudent to have distanced themselves from these cartoons; rather than give tacit support to them.

However this is not the issue, the fact remains that Danish and Norwegian news publication engaged in xenophobic faith-baiting, defamation and incitement; and did so with widespread support from the general public of both counties. The reciprocity we are seeing in the Muslim World is only to be expected.

The Iranian government has organized an open debate about the Holocaust, which is an excise in freedom of expression. However, it would be extraordinarily naive if Iranians thought that this meeting will only draw vitriolic criticism from the West.

In both cases, I would return to my earlier point that freedom of expression is not freedom from consequence.

The Danes and Norwegian should accept the consequences a little more stoically than they are: the Muslim reaction in this instance, unlike in the cases of Salmon Rushdie and Theo Van Gogh, is reasonable and proportionate.

By the way Timothy L., you are wrong on your initial point.

Hate speech is NOT (repeat, NOT) legal in Denmark! In this country, it is very much a crime to denigrate or comment mockingly on any people based on their ethinicity or religious affiliation, and the press has had several stories of people being convicted of this in recent years.

Moron wrote:

"Then go to those places where gentlemen were firing automatic weapons in the air and explain to them that they are not in Denmark. People in Denmark don't go to the streets and fire in the air to show that they don't like the laws of another country (whic allows freedom of speech)... I would love to see you marching hand in hand with those gentlemen who fire in the air.

Maybe I am wrong, but Denmark gave new home for muslims. Damn, Nordish people, they must be weird "

who says I approve of firing automatic weapons in the air? I don't. In most Arab countries, firing weapons like that would get you a jail sentence.

So let's not make a big issue of what few Palestinians have done.

Denmark is generally a friendly/peaceful country (I will not mention that Denmark has few troops in Iraq serving with the occupation), so I am of the opinion that the reaction from some Arab countries was a little overblown.

Posters here are talking about Muslim terrorists. What about the Christian terrorists who killed more than 100000 Iraqi Muslims? Bush repeatedly says that Jesus guides him. So that must mean that Jesus told him to murder more than 100000 innocent Muslims. 9/11 terrorists killed 3000 Americans. Americans terrorists have taken their revenge by killing 100000 Iraqis and thousands of Afghanis. Where is the comparision?

Believe it or not, I had been in those sermons. Every time we were advised to promote and introduce our religion to our non-Muslim friends/ neighbors/ workmates with courtesy and kind language. Sometimes we also hosted some curious non-Muslims friends in those prayers. They caught at least a glimpse of what a Friday prayer is. They held many "open house" event where non-Muslims were invited and their questions on Islam were answered by the hosts.

Some people do not want to get up from their hibernation of ignorance. So sad...

Dead anonymous:

Do you live in Denmark? You don't seem to know all that much about it.

" xenophobic faith-baiting, defamation and incitement."

Xenophobia, oh yes. Denmark has become a xenophobic hell on earth in the last 15 years. I couldn't agree more.

But "faith-bashing"????

Ehhh??? Where the heck do you get that from? I don't even know what you mean. There is hardly any interest in religion at all, in Denmark. Danes are notoriously agnostic! They couldn't care less if you are a Christian or a Buddhist or a Moonie. People (still) generally have more important things to get upset about than how other people worship.

I've seen comics in Western newspapers depicting God and Jesus numerous times. Perhaps it really was a cultural misunderstanding on the part of the Jyland Posten that they printed unflattering comics of Mohammed.

I saw one post regarding defamatory comics of the Jewish culture in Islamic newspapers. Are there really no newspapers in Islamic countries that have not published comics that lampoon Christianity?

If anyone knows of an example, please post it.

Gary wrote:

"the GCC is so dependant on all western countries for *everything* that it's just amazing.. i'm for one going to boycott any food/clothing substances made in arab nations.. i suppose not eating falafel i'm pretty safe.. Now where in Dubai can i get some good butter :)"

You need to start with the commodity that your government is willing to kill people for: OIL.

BOYCOTT MIDDLE EASTERN OIL.

USE YOUR OWN OILL FROM ALASKA.

STOP SELLING WEAPONS TO THE MIDDLE EAST.

NB to anonymous:

"The Danes and Norwegian should accept the consequences a little more stoically than they are: "

Why?

Why? "The Danes" and "the Norwegians" (oh, yeah, use the broad brush, why don't you?) are about 12 million people, some of them (imagine that), were born today!!

They didn't each and everyone of them have any part of whatever you have found offensive. Most of them have no say in anything any newspaper prints.

I am sorry to have to tell you this, but you are a a fascist. Sorry to say it so plainly, but I don't think there is another word to describe calling for the collective punishment of a whole population, whom you find in your divine wisdom to be complicit in the "crimes" of a few.

You, whomever you are, are an idiot.

To Isak:

I previously said that these recent events had changed my opinion about Denmark negatively. But recently I contacted some Danish newspapers, they were quite polite in receiving my comments responded very constructively. Their behaviors have changed my opinions back. They said they had found JP's attitude offensive as well.

It is wrong to blame all Denmark for this. Jyllands-Posten caused a lot of trouble, and gained much publicity as well!

This example shows that how a small fraction of people can give a bad name to the entire community.

Everyone's religion is for themselves, as long as we do not bother and offend each other.

We must act together to solve commont problems of the humanity.

Peace!

Well, I'm glad to see that an earlier post of mine criticizing Jefferson Morley for citing Wikipedia was either never posted or rapidly deleted. I wonder if this one will be posted. Is it WP policy to censor criticism?

Dear Ester,

I don't support or advocate "demonization" against any people, whether they are soviets or not. It is simply wrong and uncivilized.

You wrote:

"Though I've never seen Patton, I know there was a spate of movies that featured lots of Arab Muslims as terrorists during the 70s. Coincidentally, at the same time, you can't deny that Arab Muslim terrorism was prevalent (i.e., the Munich olympics, the Iranian hostage crisis."

Firstly, you are confusing Muslim with Arab.

Even if I accept your argument, is it fair for Hollywood to demonize all Muslims in the world knowing that those attacks were mainly committed by Palestinian Arabs?

What has the Muslim in Indonesia done to Hollywood? what has the Muslim in India done to Hollywood? What has the Muslim in Nigeria done to Hollywood?

You brought up Munich attacks but what you forgot to mention (I am sure that you probably don't know it) is that the leader of the attack was a Christian Palestinian, Luttif Afif (and to make matters worse, his mother was also Jewish). 3 of his brother were also part of the attack:

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Munich_Massacre

[
The kidnappers were subsequently reported to be members of the Palestinian fedayeen from refugee camps in Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. They were: the leader, Luttif Afif ("Issa"), born in Nazareth to a wealthy Christian businessman and his Jewish wife (three of Issa's brothers were also reportedly members of Black September, two of them in Israeli jails), Yasuf Nazzal ("Tony"), Afif Abmed Hamid, Khalid Jawad, Ahmed Chic Thaa, Mohammed Safady, Adnan Al-Gashey and his nephew Jamal Al-Gashey.

]

So please tell me why did Hollywood chose to demonize Muslim-Arabs alone? why not the Christian ones?

In the 70s, many of the Palestinian groups were Marxists and few were founded by Christian Palestinians:

The famous PFLP was founded by George Habash (hijacking of El AL planes),

Wadi Haddad, another Christian Palestinian, was an associate of Habash and later on split off the PFLP and founded his own group.

There is a clear PATTERN of anti-Arab anti-Muslim bias and demonization in Hollywood that started since the 70s, and the only answer you have for me is not only inaccurate but also insufficient.

There's a disconnect here. We're trying to debate the issue of free speech in countries where "free speech" has a completely different meaning. Traditionally, Americans would never think of limiting the right of someone to say something ridiculously offensive. We're talking about a country where a court ruled that a town had no right to prevent neo-Nazis from marching... thanks to a Jewish lawyer.

The problem that IO seems to have is the inconsistency of the application of Danish law. I don't know if they have any issues with the U.S. allowing our various wackjobs to impugn Islam on an almost daily basis. They do have a problem with Denmark allowing the airing of anti-Muslim opinions but not anti-Jewish ones.

Also, to whoever it was that posted earlier stating that someone's freedom ends when it starts to offend others: here in America, most of us believe that the right to offend others is one of the cornerstones of a functioning democracy. (Ask Dick "F___ off" Cheney.) If you start limiting speech based on offense, you give government a dangerous power that can be used to quash any sort of dissent.

Why is it, that any time there is some preceived slight to Islam, all hell has to break loose?

I'm not saying passing on the cartoon, though it didn't seem like a big deal to me. But really, surely the hallmark of a civilized society is that we can all handle these things maturely.

I mean, when Americans started calling french fries Freedom Fries, the American embassy in Paris wasn't sacked.

When Pat Buchannan called Canada a "Soviet Canuckistan," there were no riots in the streets of Toronto.

When Carolyn Parrish said, "Damn Americans, I hate those bastards," you didn't see the Maple Leaf being burned in New York and DC and Air Canada offices being ransacked.

And that guy from Hamas who was on NPR yesterday, talking about how he'd visited the US and seen homosexuals and their "animal acts," and how as a result Hamas wouldn't allow decadent Western hedonist tourism. As I drove home to West Hollywood, I didn't see a gaggle of my bretheren protesting (with witty signs and fabulous outfits perfectly accessorized), beating up Palestinians, or rushing to any Hamas offices to redecorate burn them to the ground.

Are these people just anxious for any reason to riot? Is it because, in the dictatorships where they live, they never see unflattering presentations of themselves or their leaders and are thus so sensitive that the tiniest thing sets them off?

What if the West responded the same way? Every time a Church in the Middle East were vandalized, or a suicide bomber blew up a Western tourist, or some leader made a ridiculous remark about the West, we attacked mosques or trade missions or beat up someone with dark skin in retaliation? The world would manage some sort of collective apoplexy.

There's always going to be someone somewhere saying something stupid or rude or false or untrue. Grown-ups take it in stride and make a snappy comeback. Infants throw tantrums.

Dear Brad,

I do not see any relation between our Prophet and french fries!

You can / may criticize any president, prime minister, king, scholar, public figure from any country where the majority is Muslim. Nobody would be offended. But on one should make fun of our Prophet. This is a very serious matter.

Let me put it this way: According to Islam, every Muslim is obliged to love God first, then the Prophet and then their parents. So, you see the ranking, right? It is not french fries or maple syrup!

To us, Muhammad (pbuh) is like water to fish. Without him, we would not have understood the message of God and how it was implemented in real life. But, I can keep living and many can, if we do not eat any french fries in the rest of our lives!

And whoever is making fun of Jesus and Moses (peace be upon them) is in violation with Islam. They are not a matter joke! They are like pearls among gravels.

Being a Dane (christian) myself, I CAN understand why many muslims were offended by the drawings in Jyllands-Posten. As can most of the Danish population !

The Drawings were childish and stupid.

BUT it ends there ! period !

This matter should have been solved INTERNALLY in denmark, within Danish legislation.

Instead a group of extremist muslims went on a tour to the middle east, where they showed the drawings to numerous muslim organisations. Some of the Drawings were "home made" and had NOT been published by Jyllands-posten !

Now, I'm affraid they have started a fire, and they don't know how to put it out !

Living in a democarcy has it's price. Only dictatorships thinks in absolutes.

So please let us, The Danes, solve this matter ourselves within OUR legislation.

At least they can't boycott our bacon.

Brad:

"What if the West responded the same way? Every time a Church in the Middle East were vandalized, or a suicide bomber blew up a Western tourist, or some leader made a ridiculous remark about the West, we attacked mosques or trade missions or beat up someone with dark skin in retaliation? The world would manage some sort of collective apoplexy."

Al-Qaeda, based in Afghanistan, attacks the US in 2001. Most of the hijackers including Al-Qaeda leader are Saudi.

2 years later, the US government, supported by its elected congress and by a majority of Americans, attacks and invades illegaly Iraq.

So far: over 100,000 civilians deaths, and total destruction of all Iraqi basic infrastructure.

What do you do with this mass murder of so many innocent people?

Oh i know...it is for their own good!

PLEASE STOP INSULTING OUR INTELLIGENCE.

Vahit,

I understand how you feel and how many Muslims would feel about this issue.

However I hope that you would agree with me that this protest was overblown. Besides, punishing Danish companies for something they are not responsible for is not right.

This is what Muslims usually accuse America of doing, which is collective punishment (harsh sanctions against Iraq that killed half a million Iraqi babies).

The killing and destruction that is still going on in Iraq are much more important.

I think Denmark got the message, it is time to move on.

Vahit and Karim:

Some of the comments directed at you on this thread have been a little over the top, and you've done a reasonable job of providing measured responses. But a critical issue, which I raised earlier, appears to be what this means for the Islamic world from a broader perspective.

Free expression--and its closely related corrollary of free inquiry--are fundamental to scientific, medical, and technological progress. There was a time when some of the Islamic cultures were seats of significant learning. That time appears to have been dead for a few hundred years now.

Doesn't this massive reaction to a few of cartoons suggest that there are still serious cultural impediments to the advancement of learning in the Islamic world? If not, why have there been so few significant scientific, medical, and technological advances from the Islamic world in the last few hundred years?

Eventually the oil will run out. Then what will you do?

As the great grandchild of a of a slave, the granchild of a sharcropper and the daughter of at 52 year old woman who had to work in the cotton fields almost half a school year from age 5, there is something to be said for cultural respect, social responsibility.

With everything that is going on in the world today, the publishing of the cartoon was irresponsible. For those of us who are not Muslims, it is hard to grasp how insulting this is. Everyone is talking about the content of the picture. True the bomb and fuse fans the fire, but the fact that within Islam the personification of the Prophet in pictures, sculptures, is forbidden.So you don't revere a figure, you respect him and follow the teachings that were revealed to him by Allah.

The concept is the same as the prohibition in Christianity of having 'false idols'.

I am a Christian and the cartoon was offensive to me. If this had been an Islamic paper and Jesus Christ, Christians would rent every plane, boat, helicopter, etc., and clean their Smith and Wesson's on the way to the Middle East.

America has allowed 9/11 to warp our views of a people we barely know. So many of you are mocking a way of life that we as Americans don't understand. So many of us have watered-down our religious faiths and practices until, we have started to believe that being devout is something to be ashamed of.

Reading the comments remind me, that we as Americans have such a long way to go before we are this true melting pot that we believe we are. It's amazing to me that so many well-read people would have such a narrow viewpont on the issue.

As far as free speech goes, doesn't the post block the B.C. comic around easter every year? and the Boondocks every three months or so.

As for the person who said that Jews didn't react to the Passion of the Christ, you must have been sleeping for about a week. Every major news channel had a Rabbi on it, saying the film would result in violence on Jews, BEFORE the film was in theatres.

Vahit and Karim,

Spare me your sanctimoniousness. We're not talking broad geopolitics or wars or terrorist attacks. Don't link a bunch of hooligans rioting over a comic to wars or terrorist attacks.

And please - can you pretend that in the muslim world, there's never been an insulting cartoon or newpaper article about jews or christians? Please. How about the president of Iran's latest comments?

It's not like the muslim world is some wonderful place where everyone - EVERYONE - every single paper out there is deeply respectful and kind about christians and jews and never makes a derogatory or insulting remark.

If, in your mind, violence and hysteria are justified over a cartoon - well, then violence can be justified for almost anything.

And don't come back at me with the war in Iraq; to link the two is nonsense, facile, and childish. Drawing a cartoon is hardly the same thing as flying an airliner into a building, either.

It's a bloody cartoon. Maybe your sense of free speech isn't very developed, but that in the west is. We might not like your views on some things (i.e. womens'/gay rights) but we don't burn down your consulates in response.

In don't thinks denmark should apologies at all. In the name of islam hundreds of gay people are executed, tortured, imprissoned. As a gay man I have a right to be anti muslim, as long as they are anti gay, my life is at stake.
Islam has political consequences and has no right to hide behind the holy. The Koran, the profet critises me, in a democraty I critise back.

And, Vahit, one more thing:

You say this: "You can / may criticize any president, prime minister, king, scholar, public figure from any country where the majority is Muslim. Nobody would be offended. But on one should make fun of our Prophet. This is a very serious matter."

Don't impose upon everyone else your standards. I'm an athiest. But my love and respect and allegiance to the Crown of Canada is as deep as your belief and devotion to your religion. And if you satirized our Sovereign, our Governor General or Prime Minister or Flag or whatever, I'd think you were wrong, but I'd not rush to burn something.

You have your sensitivities, we have ours. Sometimes we offend yours, sometimes you offend ours.

But if you want to be taken seriously, turn the other cheek and grow up.

Children break things when someone insults them. Adults deal with it in a more mature way.

And think of what message it sends to the world: "Every time we feel even the slightest bit offended, every time one person does something that we don't like (cartoons, 'disrespecting a Koran (as if an american flag has NEVER been burned in the arab world)), we're going to lash out at anyone and everyone, boycott, burn down buildings, beat people up."

How about if we imposed that sort of collective responsibility on you (and yes I know you're going to come back at me with the Iraq war, which serves to prove my point). How about whenever you "insult" us - either with some random Mullah saying women should be burkhaed or gays shot or jews are pigs or America is the great satan - every time some random person in your society or of a the muslim faith did something which we might think of as "insulting," we flew off the handle like the people you're defending did?

Grow up. Show that we should take you seriously. We all believe in different gods. We all have different faiths and cultures and sensibilities. We should try not to step on each other's toes. But when we do, the answer isn't going nuts.

(And spare me, again, the Iraq war. If you can defend your point without reference to that - something I certainly didn't condone, nor did most people in my country, nor did most of the West - you can be taken far more seriously)

It really isn't about free speech. Look what Mr. Rose, the editor, said (quoted in the New York Times, Jan 8, 2006):
"Muslims should be allowed to burn the Danish flag in a public square if that's within the boundaries of the law, though I think this would be a strange signal to the Danish people who have hosted them."

It is the problem of integration of Muslims into Danish society.

I'll join Joergen on that one. I'm gay. I recently heard some Hamas minister talking about how he won't let us homos into Palestine, and he talked about how disgusting it is and how it's an "animal act."

Did I go out and try to boycott all Palistinian business? Did I burn a flag? Did I find a small shop owner and sack his shop? No.

I don't like it. I think it's barbaric, hateful, disgusting. But I'm a big boy and I can disregard it.

But by your logic, Vahit and Karim, I'd be perfectly justified going out and kicking someone's face in.

I know you're probably going to make some argument that religion is different, but no, it's not. First, the chuch I grew up in (the United Church of Canada) has no problem with homosexuality. Second, as Joergen so rightly put, hiding behind religion to justify things is wrong - you shouldn't be able to insulate yourself from criticism.

If that were the case, well, I'd start up the West Hollywood Church of Brad. Our creed - show up late to work, go shirtless, and every time someone gets mad, beat them up. And you can't say anything about it because if you do, it insults my faith.

As comment about learning in the islamic world. i read somewhere that fewer boocks get traslated into Arabic than into Danish. We are 5 millions. I don't know how many hundred millions they are.

The Gay Dane

Brad,

I couldn't have said it better. Sorry for my spelling

Joergen - I couldn't have managed it in Danish :-)

For those who want more:

http://mikeanddean.blogspot.com - where my original posting appeared.

Brad,
I have copied it. will visit another day.

I strongly disagree with BQ. He or she forgets that some muslims pose a real threat to freedom of expression. In London recently the tate museum wirhdrew an artwork because the the Koran was part of it. An film director in Holland got killed etc...

So called "muslims" are burning Danish and Norwegian flags.

Are they blind to the cross in the middle, or just utter hypocrits?

Both the Danish and Norwegiean flags are based on the Christian symbol of the coss.

Don't we hear again and again in these days, that muslims would never, have never, could never, bring themselves to do anything but treat other religions and their symbols with respect?

Burning representations of Christian symbols? That's doesn't seem all that respectful, does it?

So let's get his straight.
Saudi Arabia and some other countries are angery over the perceived insult to Muslims. Yet the offical press in these countries continuously vilifies Jews (calling Jews sons of monkeys and pigs), run blood libels about Jewish festivals (ie Jews make matzos out of the blood of Muslim children) and have shocking cartoons that make Germany in the 30s and 40s seem tame.

On top of that, we see the usual response - violence and threats.

What thugs!

sorry forgot to write my name

LWP:

"If not, why have there been so few significant scientific, medical, and technological advances from the Islamic world in the last few hundred years?"

They have not invented bombs and nuclear bombs that have killed millions of human beings. Your nation alone has killed millions of people using modern weapons (2-4 million in Vietnam) not to mention that it is the ONLY nation that used NUCLEAR BOMBS on CIVILIAN CITIES.

Even the ruthless dictator of the Arab world Saddam Hussein has not killed as many people as YOUR ELECTED GOVERNMENT did.

The United States government is one of the murderous Western governments in post WWII era. It seems that they tried to make up for the massacres of the Europeans during WWI and II.

As for oil, I personally wish it would run out very quickly so that your foreign policy dictators stop killing our people for OIL.

We don't need this god damned OIL.

More than half of the Arab does not have OIL and would GIVE IT UP.

The question is: CAN YOU LIVE WITHOUT CHEAP OIL OF OTHERS.

This is starting to make me paranoid.

I don't wan't to read or write anything more about all this stuff, because I can feel myself becoming biggotted against people I have nothing against, and prejudiced against people I had imagined my natural intellectual/ethical allies. I don't like to feel that way.

Thank you for the words, Vahit. They sound right to me!

I am sorry everything always seems to have to end in strife.

Brad,

"Did I go out and try to boycott all Palistinian business? Did I burn a flag? Did I find a small shop owner and sack his shop? No."

That is your choice.

There is nothing wrong with a boycott. If you chose to boycott Palestinian products because something they did, well that's your decision.

Now violence that is a different issue....I do condemn it....and.not that the US lacks acts of violence...watch your own news, every week there is someone killing someone for some stupid reason, not to mention kids in schools who massacre their schoolmates every now and then. I read many stories where people kill even others because of traffic congestions (road rage)!

Don't even attempt to lecture anyone about violence. America is the most violent western nation.

Hi Carol,

that's exactly why this is a DANISH matter - no other Country/nation should interfear in DANISH matters !

There are many moderate muslims in Denmark - many of them have lived in denmark since childhood !

They are just as fed up with this debate as most other danes are !

however there are also groups of extremists. You kan teatch them democracy and fredom of speach till the end of days and they will still not get it .....

However they are constantly fueling the fire with their, extremist beliefs.

Most muslim Countries are dictatorships, with goverment controlled media.

Most of the regimes have declining public support !

One could suspect that the rulers of these "regimes" are using this "new" cause, to hide the fact, that they are under rising pressure from extremist muslim groups.

I think this is why the situation has gone out of hand!

Re: non-privilege and privilege against hate speech, cartoons, etc.

In the world of laws and statutes, a group that is specially benefited by a law that does not benefit other similar groups, is said to have a legal "privilege". Any privilege granted by law threatens the legitimacy of a claim of democracy, because privilege in law violates the democratic principle of isocracy, i.e. all persons/groups similarly situated should be equally treated by law ("Equal protection of the law" in the US).
Re the Danish cartoons, it is perfectly rationale for anyone to point out that the US and some Western European nations have violated "equality under the law" and given privilege in "free speech" law to Judaism.
Thusm Germany and Austria have criminalized of anti-Jewish remarks, but not anti-Christian or anti-Muslim remarks. The US recently broke away from "equality under the law" and passed a statute which obligates the US government to combat "anti-Semitism" but not anti-Christianity, anti-Muslim or anti-anything else. Not many Americans realize Jews have obtained a US law enacted which singles them out as a privileged religious group entitled to special government protection [The Global Anti-Semitism Review Act passed in October 2004]. Not exactly what the Founding Fathers had (and most Americans have) in mind.
So those Muslims who condemn those in Europe and the US who justify hate speech under the principles of free speech, as tolerators of selective repression of free speech when it comes to one religious group (Jews), are right. And right to so note when a supposed democracy divides religious groups into those privileged by law (Jews)and those non-privileged (Muslims, Christians. The free speech laws of an honest democracy would disallow privileged protection from hate speech to any religious group, not just one with enough political moxy to get a special law for its own benefit.

Brad,

"And don't come back at me with the war in Iraq; to link the two is nonsense, facile, and childish. Drawing a cartoon is hardly the same thing as flying an airliner into a building, either."

Over 100,000 Iraqi civilians who were killed because of the illegal invasion by your government did not fly any airliners into any US building.

Not to mention that pretty much most of the country's biggest cities were destroyed by your government bombs.

The 2 issues are linked together because it shows how much importance your attach to the lives of foreign people.

To Vahit and Karim,

I look forward to you both protesting vehemently against the government media institutions in the Palestinian Authority and Saudi Arabia who continuously insult Jews and make the most vile, vicious lies.

This corrects the last sentence of the previous comment:

Re: non-privilege and privilege against hate speech, cartoons, etc.

In the world of laws and statutes, a group that is specially benefited by a law that does not benefit other similar groups, is said to have a legal "privilege". Any privilege granted by law threatens the legitimacy of a claim of democracy, because privilege in law violates the democratic principle of isocracy, i.e. all persons/groups similarly situated should be equally treated by law ("Equal protection of the law" in the US).
Re the Danish cartoons, it is perfectly rationale for anyone to point out that the US and some Western European nations have violated "equality under the law" and given privilege in "free speech" law to Judaism.
Thus Germany and Austria have criminalized anti-Jewish remarks, but not anti-Christian or anti-Muslim remarks. The US recently broke away from "equality under the law" and passed a statute which obligates the US government to combat "anti-Semitism" but not anti-Christianity, anti-Muslim or anti-anything else. Not many Americans realize Jews have obtained a US law enacted which singles them out as a privileged religious group entitled to special government protection [The Global Anti-Semitism Review Act passed in October 2004]. Not exactly what the Founding Fathers had (and most Americans have) in mind.
So those Muslims who condemn those in Europe and the US who justify hate speech under the principles of free speech, as tolerators of selective repression of free speech when it comes to one religious group (Jews), are right. And right to so note when a supposed democracy divides religious groups into those privileged by law (Jews)and those non-privileged (Muslims, Christians). The free speech laws of an honest democracy would disallow privileged protection from hate speech to any religious group, and not favor one with enough political moxy to get a special law for its own benefit.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_munich.php

To Vahit and Karim,

I look forward to you both protesting vehemently against the government media institutions in the Palestinian Authority and Saudi Arabia who continuously insult Jews and make the most vile, vicious lies.

Timothy,

Not sure I agree with your post.

There is nothing wrong in promoting policies that fight anti-semitism.

Free speech should not be used as a license to spread bigotry and hatred against an entire people.

The end result would be discrimination, violation of human rights and oppression.

Is this what free speech supposed to acheive? I don't think so.

Maybe you never lived as a minority in order to feel the threat I am talking about.

Note none of you condemned what happened.

You have tried to defend them.

If Israeli or Jewish people protest Saudi or PA anti-semitic statements, I will not criticize them for doing so.

They have every right to protest what they deem offensive to them.

Final comment from me:

I am sorry about my comment on the flag-burning demonstrators in Gaza, and making generalizations about muslim persons. That was dumb.

To Karim:

In the US, there is something very wrong with a law that promotes fighting anti-Semitism but not anti-Islam or anti-Christianity.

What violates the "equality under the laws" principle is to enact a statute which protects only one religious group, in this instance Jews.

It is questionable under the First Amendment whether the US Congress may enact any law which represses any hate speech.

Even if a law which prohibited hate speech on the basis of religion were allowed by the First Amendment, any such law which explicitly favored one identified religious group (Jews in this instance)to the exclusion (by omission) of others, would violate the "equal protection unde the laws" provision of the 14th Amendment.

Again, most Americans are unaware of the now-official Jewish privilege over other religions in US law.

Karim,

does that mean if i promote anti-semetic viewpoints in the media it's ok.. surely then it's fine to point anti-islam, anti-christian and anti-anything.

duuh

Sayidcumar..

You wonder why western people have an intolerance for Islam.

It's because of total idiots like you
*sigh*

Strange to see that it is mostly muslims from non-european countries (Turkey included)that expresses such hatred towards Denmark because of the Drawings in Jyllands-Posten.

There must be a huge culturegap !

Well DK, that goes both ways.

How come a modern and highly educated country like Denmark does not know what constitutes a grave offense for some Muslims?

According to an online poll on Aljazeera, 87% of people believe that the newspaper apology was not enough to stop the protests and the boycott.

I read some of the comments posted on Alarabiya.net (Aljazeera's competitor), most people seem to be quite offended.

It is in Arabic for those who can read it:

http://www.alarabiya.net/Articles/2006/01/28/20664.htm

It shouldn't have taken this long (over a month) for the editor to say "Sorry".

Karim,

these pictures were posted in september, this only blew up when some Radical muslim in denmark sent bogus images to people in arab nations and they blew it out of proportion.

Danism muslims seem to have accepted the apology, get off your high horse and accept it to

Hi Karim

As I have stated erlier i can fully understand why people were offended by the drawings, most Danes can !

however the number of muslims in Denmark are only 2-3 percent of the entire population (we are only 5 million danes)!

It has only been in the recent 10-15 Years that Denmark has become a multicultural Country. We are STILL learning.

There is a long tradition in denmark of the Newspapers for making satire and Comedy out of Politics and religion. Most Danes has a quite relaxed relationship towards religion.

And i guess nobody knew that the drawings would create such a stirr.

But i sure hope that diplomacy will succed.

Karim,

I can understand why you're getting a little defensive since you're taking it from all sides here. But, ironically, after I acknowledged in my post that your responses were mostly measured, you went ballistic in response to my post. Strange. What's more, you didn't respond at all to the substance of my post, which was: If the Islamic world doesn't learn to embrace free expression and free inquiry, it will have no long-term basis for a sustainable economy, and will end up as poor as Africa as soon as oil becomes a less important commodity.

By the way, America's technological prowess brought the world more than just bombs. The internet you and other Muslims use, for example.

Karim,

Looks like France have gone and done it as well:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/56D1D043-FF1B-4756-BFE5-4D600F8BD704.htm

Lets see equality from Muslim people, start burning French Flags, start declaring war on france (is that a bad thing - joke), ban their produce and so on.

A rift is occuring..

The German newspaper "Die Welt" has also published the Drawings

Sorry guys no more Audis, BMW and Mercedes !

this comparison with jewish and muslim treatment is erroneous and here's why:

If the London Times posted a cartoon of Moses with a bomb under his skullcap how many Jews do you think would complain?

In Islam, you can't represent the Prophet as a figure... Mmh, so how do all these angry Muslims KNOW that it was Him being represented in the cartoon????

Muslims too in the past have depicted Mohammed look at the following URL:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

Here is the description of one of the pictures:

Persian minature painting, from 1550 CE, depicting the Prophet Muhammad ascending on the Burak into the Heavens, a journey known as the Miraj

Seems to me like this might have been overlooked .. Any comments here ?

shane of londonistan,
If the London Times posted a cartoon of Moses with a bomb under his skullcap how many Jews do you think would complain?

Probably a few, but I doubt that beat people up, burn flags and threaten England with destruction.

The offensive cartoons have indeed been re-published both in France and Germany along with text about the Danish-inspired controversy. The claimed justification for this re-publication of the cartoon(s) is legal: the right of free speech in both France and Germany includes, of course, the right to report on events such as the publication in Denmark and resulting controversy.
All very tidy from a legal viewpoint. However, as the politics of oppression have demonstrated since at least the Israeli occupation of Palestine and the US invasion of Iraq, technical legal points count for little in the larger picture of international politics. Technical legality under free speech law is a poor justification for deliberately inflaming an already inflamed situation. This "stick it to 'em" mentality may cost lives in places like Iraq, and certainly make life more difficult for diplomats in sensitive locations. This point is especially relevant in the context of publisher's pleas for release of the reporter-hostages in Iraq on the claim they are but innocent observors.
Both Germany and France have statutes which criminalize anti-Jewish remarks, but not anti-Christian or anti-Muslim remarks.
The US recently broke away from "equality under the law" and passed a statute which obligates the US government to combat "anti-Semitism" but not anti-Christianity, anti-Muslim or anti-anything else. Not many Americans realize Jews have obtained a US law which singles them out as a privileged religious group entitled to special government protection denied to other religious groups. [The Global Anti-Semitism Review Act passed in October 2004]. Not exactly what the Founding Fathers had (and most Americans have) in mind.
So those publishers in Germany and France who justify their anti-Muslim cartooning on the legal technicality of free speech, may be rightly condemned as (1) reckless provokers of present dangers to reporters in the field and (2) practitioners of selective censorship of free speech when it comes to the selective legal prohibition against publishing cartoons which offend Jews. To the point: these supposed democracies, as the US, have by law divided religious groups into those privileged from offensive speech (Jews) , and those non-privileged (Muslims, Christians).
Responsible publishers would put the lives of their reporters in the field and other of their nationals who are hostages ahead of the stubborn assertion of their free speech perogatives.
The free speech laws of an honest democracy would treat every religious group equally.

Rather than asking what would happen if a Western newspaper printed anti-Semetic cartoons, why not ask what would happen if it printed a cartoon of the Prophet Moses (surely the nearest equivalent of Mohammad cartoons)?

Would Jews worldwide throw tantrums and stage a boycott? Would leading foreign politicans suggest 'punishing' the newspaper for mocking Moses?

I think not.

Gary:

"Lets see equality from Muslim people, start burning French Flags, start declaring war on france (is that a bad thing - joke), ban their produce and so on."

As far as I know flags were only burned in Gaza.

STOP GENERALIZING, IT IS RACIST AND BIGOTED.

France has strong anti-defamation laws, writers have been convicted in courts for publishing books that questioned the holocaust.

As to declaring war on other nations, leave that to the government of the Unites States.

Graham,

It is a valid comparison.

What might be offensive to Muslims might not be to Jews and so on.

Jews might not mind pictures of Moses with a bomb, but I am sure once swastikas start to appear, it would be a different matter.

The Passion of Christ, which is acccording to its maker is simply what the bible says, caused many condemnations from leading Jewish civil rights organizations.

Israel is quite vocal against anti-Israeli anti-Semitic cartoons in the Arab world, and it continously lobbies washington to pressure Arab government to censor them.

DK,

"Sorry guys no more Audis, BMW and Mercedes !"

I hope you are just joking..if Europe promotes insulting and disrespecting other people sincere beliefs as it seems it is now, don't complain if the Gulf turns the OIL faucets OFF.

Yes people can do without BMWs, Japan and South Korea make good reliable cars too.

A popular support for it in the Gulf can completely shut down the oil facilities (remember what happened in Venzuella).

You can not force your standard on others.

The drawings were MEANT to OFFEND Muslims on PURPOSE, and they did.

Timothy L-

The Global Anti-Semitism Review Act of 2004 in no way established special privileges for Jews in the United States. The act is simply a reporting mechanism intended to supplement state department reports. Read the act here: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:S.+2292.+ENR:: If you fail to see the danger of the rise of anti-Semitism in the world, which the act recognizes and is intended to document further, then you sir are truly blind. I will admit I am no friend of Israel but you can't just point every time to heightened sensitivities about anti-Semitism as proving some great conspiracy or that Jews somehow are accorded greater rights than others under US law. That is simply not the truth. As for Germany, are you insane? You really have a problem with Germany knowing that perhaps, just maybe, it may need to police itself more than other societies? Just maybe that people have learned from past mistakes?

So Karim (welcome back), are you saying that DK cannot force his standards on others but YOU and mulim nations can ?

US can juts open Alaska, parts of EU are already self-sufficient (UK is pretty much self-sufficient in gas and oil).

Honestly, with these attituides i'd love for an alternate to oil to come out tomorrow, then no more $ for GCC nations... Then what?

Additionally this is the statement regarding what the french said when they published this.

"The appearance of the 12 drawings in the Danish press provoked emotions in the Muslim world because the representation of Allah and his prophet is forbidden. But because no religious dogma can impose itself on a democratic and secular society, France Soir is publishing the incriminating caricatures," France Soir said.

Hi Everybody,
Some of you are making good points, though some are mixing oranges and apples :).
I have got two points to make:
As a Muslim American i think the publications & re-publications are very un-acceptable to any Muslim and gives them no choice but to defend their prophet & religion. I would add that, we ought to be cautious and not Hurt any Danish folks -many of them totally innocent.
The 2nd point is to re-iterate what some of you already say: That both groups are on edges of full blown escalations that can get out of hands very quickly. You and I may have some control to exercise at some point, but it can quickly get out of hand. So, i urgue you all to be responsible even in your writings here. For example, India alone with 300 million muslims, can decide on their own that their religon is under attack, and can simply boycot or protest any goods or chains forget about Indonesia, Malaysia or Sout-African Muslims.

Mohamed

Mohamed,
The debate is not on who can do the most economic damage via boycot. The debate is over a nation or nations who describe to free speech should have to be inudated by people calling for killing, burning and destruction. The sad fact is that Islam is a restrictive religion. There appears to be no debate, no freedome of thought, nor freedom of fear of being physicly harmed for not obeying its edict. All those things maynot be true, but the face that Islam displays certainly gives those outside that religion that appearence.

Muslims don't seem to get the point. Islam as a religion, a political movement wants to have a say in danish politics: On sex, familly, nudity etc. The cartoons were published for a danish audience. Therefor Islam, the Koran, the profet must accept to be treated like any other ideology. Satir and ridicule is part the democratic game. You can't throw stones on others (Gays etc) and hide behind the so called sacred Koran. In Europe My rights are equal to yours.

The Gay Dane

Gary,
I see lots of other stuff is being discussed here as well(Democracy, Oil, Anti-semitism etc).
I would simply say this: Problems we have today is partly due to lack of dialoge.
For example, The masses of Muslims know that Isreal exist; Jews & Christians have been there during the time of the Prophet(peace be upon him) Prophet Ibrahim etc(Peace be upon him). If the jews in Syria have largely migrated elsewhere, that is un-fortunate and I would want see some kind of protection for them and their familes(I'm not showing of anybody here -its matter or principle). I also think that many people exploit situations to their interest:
i.e talking about state of women when they know the religon of Islam & Quran give women their rights fully but rather there are some Islamic countries that by following culture curtail those.
I ask you, is that an Islamic problem or problem of country/culture X.
Example of another explotation is, when they printed the Cartoons, they simply wanted to shame/hurt the religion and it shouldn'be accepted.

As the Democracy thing, the secularist haven't told the west what the Majority of the Muslims were saying: That Legislation belongs to Allah alone Not to the people and therefore, As Muslims we can only accept limited version of Democracy that don't take the righs from its rightfull owner(Allah). Seems to me that there shouldn't be any problem with that After all this is their own Society(they aren't telling America how to rule its people).

I'm not gay but I certainly agree with Joergen.
Tolorence
Tolorence
Tolorence

In a democracy there is no right not to be offended. I feel offended evry day when I walk down the street and see muslim woman coverd from head to toe. Like they feel ofended when I swim naked on the beach. In Denmark there is a right to be naked on all beaches. But I will still be curtious to the women who looks like a ghost in the street.

Jyllands Posten should not apologies. Our fundamental freedoms are at stake. Its more important than some butter or milk. And our Bacon export is much bigger (You can't hit that).

The Gay Dane

Saudi Arabia, Iran, its religious leaders are a daily offence to me, based on how they treat my Gay brothers in those lands. I am offended. And pray every day that I wasn't born in those countries wich for me are Hell on earth.

The Gay Dane

Mohamed,
Then you can never live in the West. Freedom first, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. You can keep your religion, you can keep your heritage. Teddy Roosevelt said about imigration You must be an American first and whatever you want after that.

Mohamed
The cartoons were publishe by Jyllands Posten (Peace be upon them) for a Danish public in a danish political debat. We don't want your laws of god in Denmark. Unfortunatly some Muslims in Denmark are offended by how we behave in our land. And it is only a small minority of muslims, most have fleed the horrors of the middle east, The horrors of Islam as it applied there and value the natur of true democracy.

The Gay Dane

Mohamed,
You keep focusing on Muslims versus Chritians, Jews. In Denmark most people do not believe in god, And those who do believe its a private matter. The Koran, The Illiad, the bible, the Tales of Hans Christian Andersen all very good stories, but we don't believe in them

The Gay Dane

Gay Dane,
You're right, Islam has a say about sex, gays etc because it's a complete in its nature.
You can't be a Muslim and gay at the same time -you choose one of them. But, see, if you're not Muslim, no Muslim Is entitle to dictate any thing to you (including your gay status). But, I know what your issues are: You're saying in part that, "how dare do Muslims out law gays" and with all due respect , being a gay has no place in any of the previous religions of Allah (Moses, Abraham, Isa bin Maryam(Jesus son of Mary).
Muslims don't have a business to force anything on others (you can read the Quran and there are specific verses that set those principles) but they do have an obligation to the society to point out that gay/lesbian thing is detrimental to the human society, spreads mischief and certainly un-Godly (as many of my American colleagues would agree) 

The prophet (peace be upon him) based on his biography had the best manners.
For example, one of his helpers of 10 yrs (Anas bin Malik I think his name was) said that,
"The prophet (peace be upon him) had never said to me why did you do X. If he didn't like a food or something, he would leave it. (We are talking things that don't transgress Allah's rules)."

Mohamed And a bit of History.
500 years ago, Denmark threw out the catholic church and we established our own church. No Pope in Rome or Muffti in Mecca shall decide what we think.
(sorry for the spelling) And hope you are having a good day.

The Gay Dane

Mohamed,
We are never going to agree on this. Muslims in Europe. I'm not talking about the middle east. Challenge me on my ways, wich are legal in Europe, blessed by our church etc... I have a right to fight back, to make fun the prophet whom they use to condem me.
People of your faith come to our lands and want to decide. Example: Denmark is one of the biggest pork producers in the world. A lot of our national dishes have porc in them. Suddenly you have all those muslim in free danish state schools who want want special treatment a non pork food. Of course its there right to bring there own food but they want the danish tax payers to pay for the extra cost. And I could go........
Sorry for the still not the most elegant language.

The Gay Dane

Thank You Gay Dane,
I'm having good day and hopefully cath you all some other time.
Just remember that dialoge is key to many of the issues we're facing today in this world.
Good day,

Mohamed,
And we don't have to agree. I don't run around burning the Koran, because of the offences Saudi Arabia cause to me. I have oppinions about Saudi Arabia and will discuss them in a civilised matter.
But they are interfering in our internal matters. They, off course have a right to express disagrement but what I have seen is sad.

I know i write a lot, once i get started....

The Gay Dane

Gay Dane,
i don't know the particulars of the "pork" issue, but i would instead let my child take his lunch from home if the tax payer complains.
Also, remember, from what i read, the Danish Muslims are in large "Danish" and not immigrants. In any case, if Denmark, treats thier Muslim minority well, i think its better for them in the long run. Because people will go were they feel safe and opportunity lies. I give you example of Dubai, U.A.E in the gulf, there are Synagogues, temples and large human capital based on those fact that people feel included and excluded.
I respect whatever good Denmark does for thier citizens.
And, yeah, your spellings was good :)
Good day.

I have to go, for now. Good day to you

Someone mentioned that France had laws against anti-semitism. That's simply not true. France is a secular state and treats all religions on equal footing. Do not confuse court cases involving holocaust denials, which have taken place in many countries including France against some individuals, with a general "anti-anti-semitic" law that simply does not exist.

I'm back.
Victory for freedom. papers from all over Europe are printing those silly cartoons. Going back to Amsterdam in the 16th century political satir has been an etential weapon in Europes battle for freedom. Freedom against the religious bigots. My right to laugh at the Koran or the bible is not for sale for some butter.

Hi,
Some of you are laughing but i think this is very sad.
Both sides are on the defensive:
MUSLIMS believe that their religion is under attach and this is Just another justfication to take hit them.
West thinks that Muslims are wicked and have lots of explaing to do like the women in veil and not eating pork anti semitisms etc.
The solution is: Both sides have to use restraint and escalating things hurts innocent people.
Muslims will be forced to think hard about anything western and boycot big ticket items like Mercedes or BMW or AirBus.
The average Muslims consumer will be forced to think locally and my God I billion people do have a purchasing power among other things.
The sad thing is that, no matter what MUSLIMS do, they can never please the likes of Daniel Pipes or Rush Limbaugh or the nationalist in Europe that thinks someone covering themselves some home is making a point.
Mr Pipes for instance hates anythig that is Islamic(doll, water, human, land you name it he has something negative to say) and I say that is too much a bar for anybody to meet!

To Blank
Muslims don't feel they are under attack. They deel everyone must march to their tune. The Muslims states do not allow for free thought or speech. They feel no-one has the right to speak against them or make fun of their religous figures. Islam unfortunatley has not opened itself to the modern world. Unfortunatley the Muslim staes and media have no problem dissing everyone elses religous beliefs.

Obviously, blank "All about the OIL..." did not get my sarcastic comment/question. So here you go blank: It would be stupid to boycott the Arab countries just because there are a few terrorist nuts. Same way it is stupid for Arab countries to boycott Danish products just because a stupid cartoon. Get it now...

I will try to explain it as simple as i can.

The signifigance of:

Freedom of speech in the west = Your religion.

The problem with this is that Saudi-Arabia and others, TRIES to inforce THEIR "laws" upon Denmark. Denmark is NOT trying to press freedom of speech unto Saudi-Arabia(even though it sure as hell could help).

The reason for this must be that they feel threathened somehow, could it be that they are afraid that their people will start voicing their OWN opinion instead of whatever some local Imam/mufti is saying.

I heard a woman demanding that Denmarks king should apologize... Denmark doesnt even HAVE a king(we got a queen, which has no power whatsoever).

The most oppressing nation of speech should hardly try to teach anyone how to deal with freedom of speech.

PS: Please boycot J.P. if you dont like it. Keep buying silver BMW's from Germany with your oil $$, they are not responsible for it.

All they saying is leave my religion and Prophet alone. Is that un-fair demand?
And the dictators you mention, who is keeping them in place.
Listen folks, this is global world, if we cant keep our credibility lets play it straight. You know the answer to everything you wrote above, they aint any dumb than the rest of us when you speaking about dictators or they hate us(yea right!!!). They don't hate us, talk to the group of 911 mothers who visit Afganistan and saw what we did and report back on the they hate us issue.

Anon,

I know all about CAIR and their "condemnation" of the attacks. I know that when asked if they condemn the (insert terror attack here) their response is "We condemn all attacks on all innocents". I have tried to find a specific condemnation of a specific event, but find only general statements. And I believe they don't feel the victims of most attacks are innocent, and that's how they get away with it.

Anon, I didn't say I see no condemnation by any Muslims at all. But I TRULY TRULY don't understand why perceived slights of the West on Islam generate such outpouring of hatred and of outrage, yet hardly a ripple, in the Arab Street, of outrage against the criminals who, in my mind, essentially rape and comandeer the religion of Islam. I know that there are Imans both here and abroad who preach against it. But I want to see the same people who burn my flag, and vocalize their desire for my death, be angry about the people who commit these acts in the name of their prophet.

I am tired of CAIRS first reaction to an attack being "oh great, here comes the anti-Muslim crap again" instead of "why, oh why do these insane terrorists do this, and in our name??

Blank
"Leave their Prophet alone"
Every religion, every political view, is far game. Freedom of speech is just that. Why should I or anyone curtail my freedome of speech because it might be hurtful. Freedom of speach is meant to make people think, make them act hopefuly the world and mankind becomes better for it.

Good post Liz

Kinda refreshing to see Europe in a flagburning session with Islam instead of the US, better if we stay out of this one. On the other hand, it would be humorous to see some West Coast liberal like George Carlin take up the freedom of speech torch and offend Muslims equally with Christians and Jews (e.g. When with Jesus Bring the Porkchops).

Better yet, if Michael Moore really had a guts he would make a satirical movie about Mohammed and with any luck he'd get a fatwa. That would really improve his chances at Cannes and sell lots of tickets to pay for his armed guard regiment.

I suspect that US liberals are gutless, contradictory and will hide behind "respecting diversity" to avoid taking up the issus of free speech with Muslims. At least US conservatives will not be so conflicted, we have been offended so long by our media and so called arts that we have learned to ignore it. Plus, we believe that respecting the faith of others and not offending is as important as proclaiming free speech.

Funny how we have to fight to display the 10 Commandments and call 12/25 Christmas. While Islam is fighting to install sharia laws. How about a little consistency from US Liberals? Instead they are forcing California school students to attend Islam sensativity classes.

Let's call Islam what it is, a violent religion founded in violence by a warrior. Why are Muslims afraid to admit the obvious. Despite the fact that people are/were killed and wars perpetrated in the name of Christianity, Christ himself was promoted peace and lived it out. Muslims can claim that Christians have been violent and talk about terrorists in Ireland, but a true follower of Christ is by definition non-violent.

That said, I do respect the Muslima belief in one God (regardless of the name they use) and denial of idol worship. Judism, Christianity and Islam are the great monotheastic religions that all claim Abraham. Let's agree that our shared God will be the judge of blasphemy.

Otherwise, we could have a peaceful coldwar with Islam. They don't send us any oil or buy our goods and can call all their emmigrants home to poverty. We would need to conserve and find alternate energy (be a good thing for the environmentalist liberals). I think the civilized countries would survive just fine.

A comment to what was said further up: 'All they saying is leave my religion and Prophet alone. Is that un-fair demand?'
Yes it is, Islam as Christianity wants to decide how I, non religious Gay dane has to live my life. They bash me with the Koran, I have a right to bash back. I know I have said it further up but that is my fundamental right.

Gary:

"So Karim (welcome back), are you saying that DK cannot force his standards on others but YOU and mulim nations can ?"

Never said that, what the Arabs did was to stop buying Danish products because they felt offended.

Denmark is free to do whatever it wishes inside of its borders, and the Arabs are FREE to BUY FROM WHOEVER THEY WANT.

The Arabs simply argued the following:

"You insult our beloved prophet, we will stop buying your products."

"you can continue with your lame excuse of free speech, we will continue with the boycott"

>>US can juts open Alaska, parts of EU are already self-sufficient (UK is pretty much self-sufficient in gas and oil).>>Honestly, with these attituides i'd love for an alternate to oil to come out tomorrow, then no more $ for GCC nations... Then what?<<<

Not much. They will just become like the other Arab countries who have no oil or the rest of the 3rd world.

The question is, what will you do when Gas prices go up 10 times?

Bombs will start dropping on the Middle East, that is for sure.

If Islam is so tolerant of Christianity and Jesus, why are Christians thrown in prison in Muslim countries for talking about Christianity and Jesus? I have friends in Muslim countries who have to go "underground" in their religious services. Muslims don't know the first thing about "freedom of speech".

USA conservative:

"Otherwise, we could have a peaceful coldwar with Islam. They don't send us any oil or buy our goods and can call all their emmigrants home to poverty. We would need to conserve and find alternate energy (be a good thing for the environmentalist liberals). I think the civilized countries would survive just fine."

Sounds good to me, get on it asap.

Stop buying middle eastern oil, and get your troops out of the Middle East for once and all.

and please speak for yourself.

Japan has no problems with any Arab or Muslim country.

What makes you think that Japan would stop doing business with the Arab world?

Oh I forgot, the Master of the Universe, the government of the USA, would say so! We the slaves should just bow to it!

Before you call your government a "civilized" one, think of how many human beings it killed since WW-II. Hint: vietnam (2-4 million people), and now Iraq (at least 100,000 people within 2 years).

There is not just Japan, all of South America would be more than happy to do business with the Arab/Muslim world.

And add to that China.

You must believe that the USA is the only country on this planet or that your government is the God of the universe.

So much ignorance and arrogance.

"I suspect that US liberals are gutless, contradictory and will hide behind "respecting diversity" to avoid taking up the issus of free speech with Muslims. At least US conservatives will not be so conflicted, we have been offended so long by our media and so called arts that we have learned to ignore it. Plus, we believe that respecting the faith of others and not offending is as important as proclaiming free speech."

Just how similar are radical Muslims and conservative Christians in their beliefs? They both advocate restrictions on others from "offending" their religious sensibilities; both want gay people to basically die; both would deny equal rights to women; just what is it do they disagree on?

Liz:

"If Islam is so tolerant of Christianity and Jesus, why are Christians thrown in prison in Muslim countries for talking about Christianity and Jesus? I have friends in Muslim countries who have to go "underground" in their religious services. Muslims don't know the first thing about "freedom of speech"."

It depends on the country, you can't generalize. Those are issues that need to be addressed, and they are being addressed.

Now,

How quickly you forget who massacred 6 million Jews in Europe? It was just not any killing but they actually GASED HUMAN BEINGS and BURNED THEM IN OVENS!

Ask the native Indians how many of them were left by the "tolerant" founding people of America. The last account I read was 10 million native Indians were killed to the point where the native Indians almost became extinct.

Take a good look at the mirror my friend.

Karim,

How can i put this... don't bring your islamofacist views to my constitutionally christian nation and then expect me to embrace your beliefs in allah, building of mosques.

Don't even dare try to impose your pathetic views of the world on my citizens, we are FREE to do as we please, we educate our women, allow citizens choice and we allow people freedom and liberties that your religion permits.

Nothing is defined by one great deity, it's a flawed belief that is twisted and manipulated to control it's believers into making sure that any sense of individuality is squeezed from them.

If thats what you want, pop to the middle east and stay there, don't come knocking on my door

Liz,

So you know I am not just inventing things, here is an article from the Nation magazine about the Indian genocide in North America:

http://muweb.millersville.edu/~columbus/data/art/STANN-01.ART

[
Yet, while it is patently untrue that the Spanish and
Portuguese did not wish to kill the indigenous peoples whom they
enslaved and burned and hacked to death and fed to their dogs, it
is true that most of them placed some value on the Indians as a
source of labor, and thus did not desire their immediate
extermination. And therein lies the major difference between
Spanish invasion to the south and the British invasion of what
are now the United States and Canada. The British--and,
following their lead, nineteenth-century white Americans--quite
openly sought nothing less than the complete annihilation of the
Indian.
The number of people living north of Mexico prior to the
European invasion remains a subject of much academic debate, with
most informed estimates ranging from a low of about 7 million to
a high of 18 million. There is no doubt, however, that by the
close of the nineteenth century the indigenous population of the
United States and Canada totaled around 250,000. in sum, during
the years separating the first arrival of Europeans in the
sixteenth century and the infamous massacre at Wounded Knee in
the winter of 1890, between 97 and 99 percent of North America's
native people were killed.
]

Comments?

Dave Bob -

Sorry but respectfully you are wrong, dead wrong, on the facts when you claim "The act is simply a reporting mechanism intended to supplement state department reports.."

The Act states: The Office to Monitor and COMBAT Anti-Semitism......shall assume the primary responsibility for (1) monitoring AND COMBATTING acts of anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic incitement that occur in foreign countries.................

An office TO COMBAT means a budget and personnel, annual appropriations, pro-active and reactive operations and missions, etc. In short, spending tax dollars and exerting government power for the benefit of Judaism only, which makes that religion privileged in US law over those not benefitted.

All fine and well if an anti-hate statute protected all religious groups. But it does not, this statute expressly discriminates in favor of Judaism. It is no different than Old South statutes that benefitted only Freedmen (people with white skin). That is privilege in law, singling out one group from other similar groups for the benefit of government power. Absolutely violative of principles of equal protection of the laws. The so-called "liberal democracy" of the US is now somewhat less liberal, and somewhat more regressive as a democracy, thanks to this statute.

I am fully aware of the dangers of the current climate of hatred based on religion, and as an individual I, and you, can choose to favor one over the other if we wish, in trying to make the world a more sane place.

The US government does not have that choice - its statutes must protect all religious groups equally.

Karim,

In dubai 80 year old grannies were imprisoned for distributing christian pamphlets.

In saudi they'd have had their hand chopped off at chop-chop, in Kuwait, Qatar, Indonesia they would have been arrested also.

Trust me you have no idea for the middle eastern intolerance for other religions, while you lambast western countries into ensuring islam has a fair hearing.

So Liz wasn't generalising, she was speaking truths, I have visited these places many times so I can speak from experience!

Wayne:

"Don't even dare try to impose your pathetic views of the world on my citizens, we are FREE to do as we please, we educate our women, allow citizens choice and we allow people freedom and liberties that your religion permits."

You left out the most relevant issue:

BOMBING OTHER COUNTRIES.

Stop linking the damn bombing of Iraq to the cartoons. The invasion was GOVERNMENTAL action. The newspaper was PRIVATE action. The two can't be related.

(And forget, of course, the state-sponsored terrorism which emanates out of Iran, Syria, Hamas, Libya).

(Oh and forget the fact that suicide bombers are praised as heroes).

Neither I, nor my country (Canada), nor Denmark nor Germany nor France supported the invasion, so your linkage is doubly wrong.

Really, Mohammed's a big guy, and can take it like a man (I'm gay and I know all about that). If a cartoon is all it takes to set you off, well, go back to the playground and play with the other immature people, societies and religions of the world.

Haha,

Bombing other countries is what Muslims do best

Uk, Spain, United States, Israel
not to mention probably threats to many othe nations in the name of GOD..

Actually you even bomb your own countries:

Saudi, Qatar, Bali etc

The almighty must be proud of you for contributing in such a fine fashion recently

Karim,
Fact. There are more Indians in the North America today then where here when Columbus came to America. Christens didn't kill six million Jews. Nazi's did and they killed Christens right along with the Jews. Get your facts right.

Timothy L-

Of course the reporting mechanism established is intended to combat anti-Semitism. That is the explicit purpose of the Act. Where in the act do you see ANY enforcement mechanism? A clear reading of the statute only deals with placing a burden upon the State department to produce reports on anti-Semitism for the benefit and education of Congress. There is absolutely nothing in that act that requires the state department, or any other entity of the US government to DO anything besides documentation. From that you claim an erosion of our democracy?

Not forgetting the nazi persecution of the jews was not religious based, it was just because hitler was a total loser and a completely Nazi scumbag

If this happened today, i bet Muslims in Gaza would be waving Nazi flags around!

Blank,
I think early Al Queda "The Muslim Brotherhood" were indeed Nazi allies

If you are interested in the Nazi Isalm connection check link

http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v256/__show_article/_a000256-000146.htm

Gary:

I am an Arab myself, I've been to some of countries you talk about.

Saudi Arabia does not chop hands for that, that is a myth. Please document it.

Saudi Arabia sometimes chop hands for homicide robberies. But I condemn this barbaric practice strongly.

Don't forget however that the United States still poison convicts (most victims are blacks). It is what you call death penalty, which is really state sanctioned murder by poisoning. I guess it is more "civilized" than the electric chair.

In terms of religion, the Middle East is much more diverse than most Western Nation. After all, it is where Christianity came from.

It is true that there are some issues in terms of minority rights. Things are changing for the better and let's not forget that even America persecuted some religious minorities (ask the Mormons who were chased out from state to state)

On a side note, Lebanon for instance is pretty much half christian half Muslim (find me a western nation with such ratio).

Some politicians in Europe are already alarmed by the 5% Muslim minority they have.

Wow - it's really breathtaking how this conversation (Karim and others) has turned from "the danish cartoon was bad/the reaction was bad" to "let's list the sins of your society!"

As if one bad act vindicates another.

As if the fact that there is capital punishment in the US makes it okay to hang gay people in Iran.

As if the fact that Bush bombed Iraq vindicates killing innocent people in response.

I could go on, you get the point.

The debate is whether or not it is acceptable, when a private organization publishes something you don't like, to fly off the handle and burn flags, ransack offices, and generally throw a temper tantrum.

But if, "Oh yeah, well you bombed Iraq" is the response, well, then pretty much anything can be excused.

More of my thoughts, and some blasphemy, at http://mikeanddean.blogspot.com

Karim,
I guess lethal injection of a sedative is much cruler then lopping off a head with a sword. Or hacking it off an innocent hostage.

Great Blog!

Brad,

"Stop linking the damn bombing of Iraq to the cartoons. The invasion was GOVERNMENTAL action. The newspaper was PRIVATE action. The two can't be related."

The invasion was supported and sanctioned by the elected congress. Don't give me that lame excuse.

Arabs governments didn't send their armies to invade Denmark.

THE PEOPLE were offended and decided to take a peaceful action which was: boycott of products.

What is wrong with that??

And since you are Canadian, you should very well know that unlike the US Canadian law FORBIDS hateful publications (where is your freedom of speech that you chant about?)

"
(And forget, of course, the state-sponsored terrorism which emanates out of Iran, Syria, Hamas, Libya)."
Don't forget Israel but I never defended any of those governments.

Karim - you really must have rose coloured glasses on.

There's far more going on that just boycotting products. Trade offices being taken over by militants? Flags being burned? All sorts of righteous indignation?

And really, I'd love to come against your logic in court some day. You'd be a dream opponent with your linking the war to nutcase muslims protesting Denmark. "Your Honour, because apples are a fruit, it's obvious that my client didn't murder that man."

Canadian law does indeed forbit hate speech. Publishing a cartoon about Mohammed being a terrorist doesn't qualify. If you don't understand our law on hate speech, don't bring it up as an example. You can't make a cartoon "hate speech" just by calling it that.

And anyway - it happened in Denmark.

Further, I could maybe have added Israel. But the point is it's not about "you did A, so we can do B." It's about "we're so immature and infantile that the minute we feel offended, we wrap ourselves up in religious indignation, cry havok, and let slip the dogs of war."

Keep the issue focused. Explain to me why it's okay for you to get all het up about a cartoon, but then it's perfectly okay to publish similar cartoons in the arab world about jews, westerners, etc. Why is it okay for the newly elected government of Hamas to talk about homosexuality as an "animal act"?

If I suggested you or your prophet might enjoy one of those animal acts, would you turn around and claim the right to kill me? To ransack my office? To blame the entire people and Crown of Canada for my comment and exercise collective responsibility?

"I guess lethal injection of a sedative is much cruler then lopping off a head with a sword. Or hacking it off an innocent hostage."

I guess you could call poison some kind of "permanent sedative".....murder should be called "putting people to permanent sleep".

It sounds nicer and more "civilized", I agree.....NOT!

Please remember that I have condemned Saudi barbaric laws.

Brad,
You might as well talk to a rock. A thick one at that.

Brad,

Right on!!! BTW Canada Rocks ... I miss Banff :) hehe

Karim,
Then why not condem loudly Militan Islamic murderers?

Karim,

Have you been to "chop chop", I have spoken to people who have been.

there is cheering as the head is cut, then the people get to walk by and spit on the decappitated head..

I don't think that's quote how a lethal injection works .. Close but you need to keep trying

Karim,
Would you condem ths Saudi's in Saudi Arabia?

Talking of anti-semitism, anyone seen southpark.

On a regular basis Cartman lambasts Kyle for being a dumb-ass jew, i recall him once being blamed for killing Jesus as well.

Where are the protests and flag-burnings, this show has been running 8 years+ and Kyle and his jewish family have been ridiculed throughout

Talking of anti-semitism, anyone seen southpark.

On a regular basis Cartman lambasts Kyle for being a dumb-ass jew, i recall him once being blamed for killing Jesus as well.

Where are the protests and flag-burnings, this show has been running 8 years+ and Kyle and his jewish family have been ridiculed throughout

Karim - stop trying to deflect. You can't answer everything with "oh yeah, well, how about the fact that in Arkansas, you can marry your cousin?"

I mean, I wish I could do that: "No, your honour, you must find for my client, because tomorrow is Thursday!" "No, your honour, you can't punish my client for theft, because yesterday someone beat up a little old lady not far from here!" "No, your honour, you can't punish my client for insider trading, because just last week, someone else did worse insider trading!"

Answer the question directly: Is it, or is it not, acceptable to resort to violence when someone says or draws or writes something that offends you or your religion, but causes you no physical or economic or other harm, other than sore feelings?

Don't give caveats. Don't respond with "well the Iraq war" or "Israel does bad things" or "sometimes people get beaten up for saying things in other countries" ('cos that doesn't make it right).

Answer the question directly. If you don't, it shows you can't, and then you really should just take your ball and go home.

Cartman - that's a loser argument with this crowd. According to them, it's okay to insult presidents, prime ministers, countries, and jews. Just not Mohammed. There's a post to that effect yesterday afternoon.

But you're also right - there wasn't a Canada-wide boycott of Southpark after their Blame Canada song. And it offended me SO much I just really wanted to go kick some ass and boycott american products and find some innocent people of the same nationality as the Southpark guys and beat them up.

Only, being an adult, I controlled myself, had a beer, and got laid instead.

Brad, you show why the canadians "kick ass".. I agree that was offensive (and i'm not canadian)..

Actually didn't you guys trapse down to washington, ramsack congress and string up bush or whoever over that song.. Oh wait that was the other reality.. The one where you can resort to violence everytime you get pissed off

Some just don't seem to understand what freedom of speech is about. My right to make fun of Islam, of the Koran, of the Bible, of my queen and of my self as a gay queen are a fundemantal right; of Danish and european society. Its is right obtained after centuries of revolutions, religious wars, demonstrations. And again those drawings were published in Denmark for a danish public. Yes the Muslims in Denmark are danish, and they have to accept our free speech wich sometimes can be hard. Thats the whole point we fight with words and drawings not with bombs, kidnapings etc... We don't hit our wifes, our kids, we believ in equality between the sexes, we don't accept segregation of the sexes etc....

I'm offended by muslim women who walk around london in burka. they look like ghosts. Yet I will allways smile and be curtious to them. I would offend muslims I walked around in Chaps (pants where youn have your ass hanging out that gay people sometimes wear) but I know I would killed for it.
I'm offended by schools, or mosques were girls and boys are segragated. yet I accept it as there right. I'm offended by young gay muslims who are so oppressed that they don't dare to appear in a BBC program about gay muslims in the UK.
I'm offended .... I could go one But I accept it as part a democratic society

sorry i wrote a bit fast
What I mean was what would happen If I walked around in Chaps in the streets of Riyad. Chaps are leathers pants some gay men wear where ones ass is exposed.

Karim - redux - I've now decided that my religion is the religion of the Holy Onion (peace be upon him). And every time someone eats an onion raw, they offend me. Raw onions in a salad are particularly offensive to me. Also, fried onions are blasphemous. The only way an onion can be consumed is when it is sauteed in butter and carmelized with a splash of red wine (peace be upon the carmelized Onion). Everything else is abomination.

According to your logic, I can get offended any time anyone breaks my religion, even if they aren't Onionians (may the light of the Great and Merciful Onion shine upon them). According to your logic, it's a-okay for me to trash the offices of the satire paper, The Onion, for taking name of the the Holy Onion (peace be upon him) in vain.

So, watch what you eat tonight. For if you offend His Onionly Greatness (peace and glory rain down upon Him), I'm coming after you (may peace be upon you).

As a citizen of the world as well as the United States (and embarassed by our current administration) and also an atheist I can tell you for sure that I will boycott British products if the law forbidding criticism or ridicule of religious faith is enacted.

After all, right at the core of most religions is the belief that non-believers are going to hell, or a facsimile thereof.

As a non-believer I find that rather offensive.

Brad,
I have seen the light. Will you accept me as an Onionian in the holy cult of the onion (peace be upon him). I swear to go in holy war for the Holy Onion (peace be upon him). Now we are 2. A new world religion is born. Praise the holy Onion. The Onion Bless Denmark

Joergen - You are welcome to join the Church of the Holy Onion. But as you are Danish I must caution you: An Onion must NEVER be served with Havarti cheese.

Further, it is acceptable to insult presidents, kings, politicans, and governments, but NEVER the Holy Onion or his Prophet, the Chive of Redemption (lux perpetua luceat eis).

If you do any of these insulting things, we shall burn your flag. Your trade mission will be attacked by militants who have fortified their halitosis with Holy Onions carmelized in butter, red wine, and GARLIC.

Yea, we shall take our holy Onion struggle even unto those who do not share our theoculinary beliefs (may they be cursed)! For he who offends the Great and Holy Onion (may he be praised forever), offends all Onionians (may they be swathed in sanctimoniousness)!

So you villagers in Southern Patagonia, beware! You master chefs in Paris, beware! Karim, you better watch out too. Don't you offend my religion. The Eyes of the Mighty Onion will know and will tell me when you offend my Lord Onion and his Righteous Prophet, and the anger of those who became vexed by Danish cartoons shall be but a guttering candle compared to the titanic firestorm which we shall unleash upon you (peace be upon you).

Wow I'm saved. I will never eat Onion with Havarti cheese. It is a difficult command to obey but I will control my feelings. I will pray for the Holy onion, but how many times? How many virgins are waiting for me in Onion paradis (I hope they are not all women).
I better stop otherwise we could take this very far

Joregen:

"Some just don't seem to understand what freedom of speech is about."

Some just don't seem to understand what freedom of buying whatever people want is about.

Not only you want Muslims to accept the insult that you are defending, you also want their money in the from of buying your products.

What is this? arrogance? feeling of superiority?

The Muslims have spoken against what THEY DEEM OFFENSIVE and have decided that their private money will not be spent on products produced by the offending party.

I keep reading on Arab media that people were offended big time and that they will enforce the boycott.

I don't agree with the boycott itself (because it is misplaced, the Danish gov has not done anything) but I do recognize the right for people to protest what other people say as long as it is peaceful.

Terry,

"As a citizen of the world as well as the United States (and embarassed by our current administration) and also an atheist I can tell you for sure that I will boycott British products if the law forbidding criticism or ridicule of religious faith is enacted."

Not if your feelings are not sincere and genuine.

Arabs (atheists) have bashed Islam on Al-Jazeera many times, and there used to be a strong marxist movement in the Arab word.

A black American can joke around or even ridicule his fellow black Americans using slogans that would otherwise be considered RACIST if they were made by white Americans.

The context and the scope of ridicule is very important.

The Danish newspaper sought provocation by initiating the incident. They wanted a response, well they sure got it.

Karim:

What about the violent demonstrations? What about the maseked gunmen who took over the EU offices? How about Syria officially demanding that the "offenders be punished."

Where's your commentary on that? Sure, the muslim world (apparently a monolithic bloc, in your mind - which really makes collective punishment against them acceptable. If you're all of one mind, then when a muslim celebrates a suicide bomber blowing up children, then you all are. I don't believe that, but you seem to) can boycott Havarti, and Hans Christian Andersen (probably too immoral for you anyway), and butter cookies.

I doubt the good people of Denmark are losing any sleep over all this.

Explain how the violence is okay.

You can't. You haven't, a single time, without saying "Well, you bombed Iraq so we can do that." The one doesn't make the other right.

Explain how it's acceptable in its own right.

And don't eat any onions, or I'm coming to take over your trade office.

Brad,

"Answer the question directly: Is it, or is it not, acceptable to resort to violence when someone says or draws or writes something that offends you or your religion, but causes you no physical or economic or other harm, other than sore feelings?"

That I answered already. I wrote that violence is not acceptable. I personally don't even agree with the boycott!

There was no violence. What you guys talk about were isolated events (burning flags in Gaza) and you keep trying to project that on all protests. Quite dishonest of you if you ask me.

You seem to defend racism and hatred, which in this case is hiding behind "free speech", while you condemn people for simply protesting it and for telling the offenders that they were offended.

Karim,

Let me remind you. The drawings where not intened on the middle east but on a danish Public. Let me remind you that you can come to Denmark tomrrow and parctice your religion. Your fellow Muslims are safe in Denmark. I can not come to most of the Middle eastern countries and live out my sexualty. I think the arrogance lies with you. Your wife, mother sister can wear the Burka in Denmark, they will offend but we will accept them. My mother can not wear a Bikini publicly.

In Iran 3000 gays have been executed By the islamic republic. Don't talk about arrogance

No you don't have to buy our butter milk etc...
Soon you won't be able to buy any European products (dutch, german french as they are all publishing the drawings). Of cours you can buy Chinese products. But do you know how China treats its Muslim minority in north western China. Talk about repression.
I'm not so Afraid I you remove your oil the Midle east only have a GDP double the size of MICRO Denmark (5 Million danes). Our export to Mulim lands are a minimal part of our economi and Denmark is self sufficient in Oil

Sorry for being a bit agressive but I have to defend my rights

More of the same Karim,

I live in London a very tolerant city. But when I walk down the streets holding the hands of my Boy friend. Or when I kiss him at Heathrow airport when he comes back. I see the hate/disgust of many non europeans (I can't say Muslim as I don't know). I have heard the position of the muslim organisations in the Uk to my lifstyle to my parnership. Don't talk about arrogance

Someone said that Denmark hasn't invaded Iraq. How ignorant can people be? Denmark is part of the "Coalition of the Willing" and took part in the illegal invasion of Iraq. They are complicit in the killing of thousands of Muslims in Iraq, and then they cry like a baby when someone boycotts their stupid products. Danish cheese stinks!

"What about the violent demonstrations? What about the maseked gunmen who took over the EU offices? How about Syria officially demanding that the "offenders be punished.""

Which violent demonstrations? The only event I read about was in Gaza.

Syria certainly shouldn't be saying that, but that didn't hurt anyone's sincere feelings.

"Sure, the muslim world (apparently a monolithic bloc, in your mind - which really makes collective punishment against them acceptable. If you're all of one mind, then when a muslim celebrates a suicide bomber blowing up children, then you all are. I don't believe that, but you seem to)

You're not making any sense.

A suicide bomber acts on his own by taking his own life.

The racist and bigoted drawing, Mohammed with a bomb, is supposed to be directed at all Muslims and was supposed to be a provocation.

You liked the provocation and but you didn't like the response. Well tough luck.

You don't own the Arabs or the Muslims, and you don't dictate to them whether they are allowed to protest or not.

Joergen, your "free" country apparently feels free to free many Muslims of their very lives. The illegal invasion of Iraq was prompted by hatred. Why doesn't the Jewish editor of Jyllands Posten call for contributions from cartoonists to portray Moses as a greedy Jew? Let's see what freedom of expression means in that case. BTW, in Denmark Muslim women cannot wear the hijab, or scarf, in school or at work. A Muslim woman was fired from her job for wearing a hijab.

Karim,

And I can go on. Muslim who come and live in Europe must accept the rules of Europe. Free speach are fundmental. I don't sit and scrutinize every paper in Saudi Arabia or any other Middle eastern country to be offended. Jyllands Posten (peace be upon them) is a Paper Published in Jylland (a part of Denmark) in Danish for a Danish public. In a Danish context there was nothing more offensive than what we are used to in the cartoons. But since the Middle Eastern gouvernments and people are pressurissing my governement I have to stand up and defend my rights. Rights on wich my lifestyle depend (even my life). That is not arrogance. The last days Muslim people have attacked my country and one of its most fundamental principles. Yes then I begin to critize what happens in Saudi Arabia, one of the most despicble dictatuships in the world.
I'm sorry this is important for me

The Gay Dane

Joergen,

"Let me remind you. The drawings where not intened on the middle east but on a danish Public. "

Let me remind you that "Mohammed" is a trademark of all Muslims, especially Arab ones.

Mohammed was an ARAB BORN IN ARABIA, hence the reason why protests started in the Arab world.

If the Danish paper wanted to ridicule DANISH MUSLIMS then why didn't it pick some Danish Muslim figure instead of Mohammed who was born 5000 miles away from Denmark 1400 years ago?

What does Mohammed have to do with Denmark?

It is clear to me that the editors of that paper are racist and bigoted.

Karim,

More. A few centuries ago Scandinavia was not free. But then among others through offensiv drawings, people won rights,
Rights for women, handycapped, gays, transexuals, right to critise our own church. Rights to critize our monarch (who accepted that right) that why we still have a queen (no power). Rights of poor people to get a decent traitment. Rights of Muslims to live in our land. And so on... All those rights were won with satyr. Look at some of the very juicy satyrs in the 18th century from all over Europe. The french philospher off the enlightement were great to make satyr on religion. And It offended the established religion. The power. Its is all those fights thats makes Europe Europe.
The Gay dane

Joergen, why don't you answer a simple question? Why did the Danish people support a war on a Muslim country, Iraq, which had done nothing to Denmark? Why did the Danish people join in with the corrupt Bush Govt. to invade Iraq? Why is your army killing innocent Muslims in Iraq? If you guys are only concerned with what goes on in Denmark, why did you get embroiled in the Middle East.

Actually, I think the entire Muslim world should boycott Denmark for the Iraq invasion, not just for the cartoons.

Karim,
No I don't agree, Islam is now the second religion in Denmark. Muslims in Denmark use the Koran in there political voice. As such Islam has also become a danish religion wich I have the right to critise. That is a consequence of Muslim moving to my country and wich i accept. But that gives Jyllands posten the right to....
And In denmark there is a long tradtion of political satyr. Christ has been show with an erection, as a women, as a you name it. There are Hardly any Jews in denmark and has never been so Judaisme has never been an issue. most danes don't know that Arne Jacobsen (a very famous danish architect) or Niels Bohr were Jews.

"It is clear to me that the editors of that paper are racist and bigoted."

Oh get OVER it.

"'Mohammed'" is a trademark of all Muslims, especially Arab ones." Stop portraying the muslim world as some monolith. Stop saying that no non muslim can every say anything about islam.

If you want to play colletive responsibility, and play the game that all muslims speak with one voice, well, then we can.

Thus:

All those people who partied in the streets on 9-11 - well, you now share collective guilt.

All those muslims who blow themselves up in market places killing innocents - you now all share collective guilt.

The people who died in London when muslims blew themselves up - you now share collective guilt.

The people who kill gay people in the name of Islam - we can blame you all.

Maybe you need to realize that "racism" and "offensive" are different things.

A racist remark would be something akin of "all arabs are sub human." If that is what was said, well, then you might have a point with your self-immolation anguish.

But the cartoon was nothing of the kind.

You clearly aren't ready for prime time, and since you seem to think ALL muslims think the same way as you - well, you all aren't ready for prime time.

In the real world, particularly in the West and in developed, modern, decent counties, people say things that piss other people off, all the time.

Turn the other cheek.

Go read a book.

Go smoke a cigarette.

Go have a beer.

Go do something blasphemous.

But don't get on your damn high horse saying "well, since mohammed was born in arabia he can't be insulted by anyone outside of arabia."

I tell you what, Karim - I don't believe in your god. I don't believe in your prophet. If Mohammed existed, well, he was just a dude. If he had visions, well, he probably was just smoking something. I have no problem with you thinking he's more than that, but don't you start calling me offensive or racist because I don't believe the same thing as you.

Same with the newspaper. They dont' think it's some theocratic crime to draw mohammed in the way they did. You do. Tough.

And I haven't heard you even begin to address the arguments that have been made commenting on the virulent anti-semitism and homophobia of the arab press. Are you saying there's never, ever, ever, anywhere been a cartoon that might be offensive to a jew or a christian or a homo?

Go suck your thumb somewhere else. It befits an infant.

And how does one spread indifference and promote dehumanization of others?

well one good example are some of the drawings.

Let the people speak up against it as strong as they wish, but let it be peaceful.

The Danish people are not for the war in Irak. But our goverment is. Denmark is a small country. Our loyality to them is great. They liberated us, defende us for 50 years. You must remenber that the Iron curtain just ran east of Denmark. Nato saved us from the red. in 1864 Denmark lost 1/3 of the country to Germany (the provinces of Schlewig Holstein in germany now) nobody hepled us we were smashed. Since then Denmark has known that we need a big ally. The Us has fulified that role in the most gratious way. They have garabted our liberty. The Danish government sougtht they had to be by the side of our old ally enven though most danes does not support it. Democrazy is a compromise
The Us was allso etential in recognising Danish soverainity over Greenland back in 1920. Its was linked to a deal were Denmark sold The know Us virgin island for 25000 dollars.

The Danish people feel a lot feel the palestinians. But our alliance with the US is paramount.

Brad,

You're chanting to the wrong person. I wrote I am not religious so I do think Mohammed was just a dude like you and me.

But millions of people don't think so. You gotta respect that. It is their prophet.

sorry I can see I'm writting to fast. I meant the US has garantied danish liberty. English is not my first language

Karim, Maybe I allso mixed you up. Sorry.

All your government had to do was to act diplomatically and say "sorry".

Obviously your diplomats were sleeping for more than a month ;-)

It doesn't take much to do that, instead it became an issue of "my right to insult you" and all that silly non-sense.

Many in the west boast about certain values such as: democracy, freedom of expression, freedom of religion, ... etc. Yet they never explained why a democratically elected régime gassed millions of its religious minority, with the active participation of Churches and millions of citizens across all Europe. Although, they came a long way from the days of the Crusaders who, cannibalized children in the village of "Ma`arat al-Numan", centuries ago. Radulph of Caen, a chronicler, wrote: "In Ma'arra our troops boiled pagan adults alive in cooking-pots; they impaled children on spits and devoured them grilled."

Again, in 2006, they look for a Trojan horse to abuse professed rights that no decent human will object to. I am a Muslim woman, who chose to avoid Danish products, not because of a racist paper's experiment about the boundaries of freedom of expression, or to cause the unfortunate lay-off of 100 Danish workers to-date, or damage the interests of any innocent third party which ironically includes some Muslim merchants. But the issue is the wide held belief and attitudes in the west since 9/11, that resulted in the dehumanizing of Muslims everywhere indiscriminately, and gave the green light to sick individuals to provoke Muslims, and incite hatred, which satirically, how Al-Qaeda started. What would you say, if someone argued in support of the 11 hijackers on the grounds that they are free to blow up their own seats that they purchased and paid for with cold cash?!! I am using secular values such as cupidity, because I don't find anything in my faith or any Abrahamic faith that targets innocent people.

And for those who natters about minority rights in Muslim countries, let me tell you, if the one billion plus Muslims on this planet, truly wanted to target religious minorities, they would not have their own satellites, hold ministerial posts in most Muslim countries, or live in affluent neighborhoods. In contrast, Muslim minorities, in the west, suffered a lot since 9/11, which mandated a much needed self examination on all moderate Muslims worldwide to clean house of those undesired elements of extremism. However, the self proclaimed civilized Westerners need to rein in its own homemade fanatics.

I know for a fact that the majority of North Americans understand the meaning of basic fairness, and it is a multicultural society, unlike old Europe. And such attack on a minority religious or not will not be tolerated in this society.

As this ugly episode continues with secular extremist supporting each other in targeting Europe's latest religious minority, today the same offensive cartoons are reprinted in Norway, Germany, and France, so history repeats itself.

At this point I might not be able to do much, other than boycotting Danish Dairy (and chocolate), rest assured that Muslims and non-Muslims will not wait until they see their brothers and sisters in humanity are gassed in Europe or elsewhere?!.

A Bite more on Danish policy and the to bed. Yes most danes disagree with the US, don't like the Bush Adm. Most Danes have a gut feeling that what happened in 1864 when we stood alone must not happen again. That is paramount to Danish foreign policy. This is not based on ideology but on Real politic. And the Us has never interfered in internal Danish matters (opposed to what we see now)

Um Khaled,
I don't agree. When I was born I don't think in 1962 I don't think there were any Muslims in Denmark. No there is a sizabel comunity. Of course that causes friction. But I still think that the Muslim in Denmark have more rights than many minoriies in the midddle east and not only religious minorities. Ask the Kurds, the berbers. What happened to the once large Jewish community in Marrocco. And what happen to those Muslims in the middle east who decides to convert or become atheist. In a democracy the words can be harsh. Denmark has one of the lowest murder rates in the world. Our politician could untill 9/11 walk around with no protection. Our Quen would take the bike trough town. And even with the strict policy on emigration we have now Denmark still takes more refugees per Dane than the US. We are one the few countries in the world who live up the UN principle of giving more the 1% of GDP in aid. But yes we can have harsh direct political debat. Now of to bed. Good night

Wow, Um Khaled, let's chill a bit. You bring up the Holocaust, as if it had anything to do with a cartoon. And as if, say, muslims had never engaged in genocide (the massacre of the armenians comes to mind) or gassing each other (saddam hussein and the kurds is a good example)

You go back, heavens, to the crusades! Well, fine - how about the sack of constantinople then in 1453 and the three days of rape that went on? The reports that the streets ran red with blood?

To pretend that you're all lily white is nonsense; to link those to the sanctimonious outrage over a cartoon is ridiculous.

Yes, the holocaust was bad. And the German people are the first to say that (as opposed to the collective lack of outrage over islamic extremism). Western papers are overwhelmingly self-critical, thanks to a free press.

The cartoon wasn't racist. You didn't like it. It offended you. Big deal. I read things in the paper that offend me all the time. If I were as hysterical and think-skinned as you, I'd say they were homophobic, or racist, or anti-immigrant. I don't.

Again, my constant refrain: grow up. The cartoon didn't hurt you. No one died as a result (though if nutcases carry on, someone might, at the hands of pissed off muslims, who would, if you buy Karim's belief in collective responsibility, make you all guilty).

On the collective responsibility thing - don't blame me, or the danish paper, for what a few individuals did to muslims post 9-11. Don't blame me, or Joergen, or Canada/Germany/France/Other countries who didn't go into Iraq for the Iraq war.

THe instant you start painting us with some sort of collective responsibility, you open yourselves up to it. I don't blame all muslims for islamic extremists, but according to your logic, I should.

Um Khaled,

I understand how your most sincere beliefs were hurt and I fully agree with you that this is not an issue of free speech but more of an on-going campaign of dehumanization of Muslims.

In my opinion though, boycotting Danish products in this case is misguided and misplaced. It amounts to collective punishment which is wrong. The Danish companies are not the ones that engaged in that hate campaign.

Denmark as a country has a clean record in terms of sending aid and also in terms of diplomacy and respecting international law and treaties.

Their involvement in the war with Bush is however a huge disappointment.

Brad:

"Yes, the holocaust was bad. And the German people are the first to say that (as opposed to the collective lack of outrage over islamic extremism). Western papers are overwhelmingly self-critical, thanks to a free press."

The Holocaust was not carried out by some clandistine group made up of few Germans who were convicted by their home country or by Germans who were stripped off of their citizenship. Bin-Laden had to flee Saudi Arabia which later on stripped off of his citizenship way before 9-11.

So let me get this straight for you:

The holocaust was carried out by an official western government, one that was highly modern and advanced (not to mention civilized in their eyes), and using a highly qualified and trained army.

It was not the work of few wackos and lunatics.

Even when France fell to Nazi Germany, the new formed official French Nazi government, Vichy, started rounding up French Jews and deported them to the death camps.

Islamic extremist groups are clandistine groups that operates against the laws of their own countries. Basically a bunch of gangsters if you wish.

The Nazis were just serving their country.

Brad,

Your ignorance is incredible! When Fatih Sultan Mehmed conquered Istanbul in 1453, the first thing he did was to declare that everyone would be free to exercise their religion. Churches and synagogues were/are protected by the state. Sultan himself gave the Orthodox Church a previliged status and the church still continues to function.

Still there are many Christians and Jews living in Turkey, having a well-above standard of life. They have high positions in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, many big companies etc. There many non-Muslim CEO's of big companies.

When Jews were being persecuted and tortured in Inquisition courts in Spain by Christians, the Ottoman Sultan invited them to Anatolia (today's Turkey) 1492. They were welcomed and given shelter and sustenance. In no time, they flourished and made a good living. In 1992, Turkish Jews founded a foundation called the "500th Year Foundation" and held special celebrations to show their gratitude.

If you walk through Istiklal Caddesi (The Liberty Avenue in Istanbul) today, you will see many churches on both sides of the street where Christian are free to go and pray. A lot of tourists go there to pray as well.

As for the Armenian accusations: During the WW1 Russia provoked Armenians agaist Ottomans, giving them the hope that they would have their own land. While Ottoman Empire is dealing with the occupiers during and after WW1, Armenians attacked Ottomans from the back. Eventually there happened a battle in between, leading to a large death toll on both sides. Armenians claim various numbers for their loss, there were an estimated 400,000- 600,000 death toll on the Ottoman side, mostly poor peasants. In a state of intense war, both sides had big losses.

A short while ago the Turkish Institute of History invited the Armenian authorities to a neutral debate under the supervision of some other neutral countries, they repeatedly declined this invitation. We have solid evidence in our records and archives. They did not want to confront. We also would like end this dispute for once for all.

If Muslims had forced other people to convert to Islam, there would not have been any non-Muslims in Balkans today. Ottoman Empire's boundaries were extended up to Hungary, Vienna, Easter Italy and Romania. They ruled about 400 years there. Yet, whenever they built a mosque for Muslims, they built a church and synagogue next to it. The people preserved their religions, cultures and languages all this time. Only a fraction of Bosnians voluntarily converted to Islam. Serbs (who are Christians) killed about 250,000 Muslim Bosnians and gang-raped 40,000 women systematically. They raped women in front of their husbands, fathers, mothers, children by saying that "We will plant a seed of Jesus in you!". They also sodomized men. A few-month old babies banged from wall to wall until their brains were erupted from their tiny skulls! Recently mass-graves were found in Srebrenica where 10,000 men murdered and buried by Serbs under supervision of heroic Dutch soldiers! They demolished every building, mosque, bridge, etc. built by Ottomans. However you can see remnants of all civilizations in Turkey, completely intact.

On the verge of 21st century, we saw a genocide in the middle of Europe. Heroic EU countries condemned (!) Serbs where the butchers Slobodan Milosevic, Radko Mladic etc. were strolling the streets grinning! Still they are free, they even receive pension from their state. International Lahey Court have not been able to convict them for 16 years now! Bosnians were unlucky, because they did not have oil. If they did, EU and USA would immediately rescue (!) them.

So, all in all, there are extremists in all religions, cultures, countries who act with their twisted evil minds like Al-Qaeda, Nazis, Soviet communists, etc. If we call names for a large community because of some lunatics acted violently, we will never find peace. I do not blame Christians because what Nazis, Serbs did, or what white Christian Europeans exterminated Native Americans, brought Africans by separating moms from their children under inhumane conditions and used as slaves, raped, molested, burned (KKK). I read many books on Christianity and believe that, in essence, it does not condone violence or persecution. In fact, all Abrahamic religions (Judais, Christianity and Islam in chronological order) encourages peace and justice, and are against violence. It is the extremist lunatics who caused all these troubles.

I believe everyone in this forum is civilized enough to discuss things calmly. We may have different faiths, political views, national / ethnic backgrounds, we should be able to differentiate "good" from "evil", as long as our deep-embedded, bias-oriented opinions do not curtail our reasoning.

Thank you for your response, but I have to disagree with you on some facts. Denmark although claims tolerance and multiculturalism, or a mosaic society, it is nonetheless a vertical one, where some colours are at the bottom. It is a society that confines its new citizens in ghettoes, and never accepted them.

Why this generosity by the Danes and most Europe? Because of the reckless free life style they embraced, where citizens have rights only without responsibilities, their population is shrinking, and they need to have immigrants to sustain their generous welfare state and pension. Most immigrants are refugees from Africa, and I am sure that if they shed their clothes and wear what the majority deem civilized, then next they will be criticize for their skin color or African hair, and make cartoons of that because simply you do have a problem with DIFFERENT people.

Take for example, the issue of head covering, Muslim women are harassed and discriminated against, although they were not forced to wear it, it was a choice they made the same way they made a choice to be Muslim in a free and open society like the Denmark, as a matter of fact some totalitarian Muslim countries single out head coverings as an anti-government symbol and subsequently harass and jail young women for their belief. What would be the reaction of the west if democratically elected Hamas decides to force Christian minority women to wear head coverings ?!!. Based on your logic they have the right to do so!!.

In the US, as if it's not enough that ordinary Iraqis are paying the price of Al-Qaeda's atrocities, we are here in the US are not allowed to rent or buy places to have Islamic schools or worship. Less than two weeks ago, an Islamic institution in VA that has classes and worship places which was cleared by the congress from terrorist links, and investigated extensively by the FBI, decided to close, because most of its teachers who are prominent Saudi scholars, decided not to come back to the US, for fear of harassment from the public or authorities. So Muslim minorities in the West in general have to pray in streets and parking lots, or home school their children. If that is not a collective punishment, I do not know what is!.

It might be a little strange, for some to think that we Muslims, are over reacting, but ignorance of other cultures or beliefs, is not what happened here, it is a deliberate campaign against Muslims collectively, that's why it demanded a collective response. What is considered ignorant and offensive is the notion that Muslims are absolutely and completely manipulated by their governments, or clergies, and if they decide to stop the boycott it will cease immediately. On Al-Jazeera there is a call from a Danish Muslim leader to cool off, so matters do not get out of hand, I am sorry, he can buy those products if he wishes, but the matter is out of his hands. One thing I share with Danish PM, both of us did not and will not listen to the voices of reason. The Danish PM was blinded by arrogance, me by indignation.

I am confident that the same way few misguided Danes spearheaded this tragic clamor, the Danes will collectively start some soul searching and prevent those who hijacked their cherished values of tolerance and civility, from leading them into a collision course with moderate Muslims worldwide. Same way we Muslims are punished collectivelly for the actions of teh few!.

And if someone holds the opinion that boycotting Danish products in this case is misguided and misplaced, try mistreated!!. Muslim men are not as visible as Muslim women are in non-Muslim countries.

Um Khaled

I believe that EVERY dane agrees that the concept of boycot is perfectly ok, danes themselves have boycotted Arla(amongst others) when they did something we didn't agree with(i can't remember what). I am also pretty sure that Arla has boycotted the newspaper J.P.! That is how it works, you do not like a company policy, you dont buy their products.

Now, what muslims simply can NOT seem to get into their skulls is that Arla(and other companys) DID NOT MAKE THOSE DAMN CARTOONS. They have NO influence over them, neither do the danish goverment! The goverment i muslims countries might have power over everything, but that is NOT how i works in Denmark. Please, accept it already!.

As i wrote before, if you don't like the cartoons, boycot J.P.!

There have been printed pictures of the prophet since he was born more or less, how come it blows up now?

As to the "campaign" against muslims, rubbish! There might be a campaign against oppression of speech and free thought, is it that battle you are trying to win?

Oh, and by the way, you have to extend the list of boycotted goods. Practically every country in Europe has now printed the cartoons. What would you know... they agree with freedom of speech. Could it be that muslims MIGHT be on the wrong track here?

It is like a knee-jerk reflex, you simply dont think over the concept of free speech, but just lash out against it.

To Dave Bob and all others who think its true democracy that in the US "All religions are equal, but Judaism is more equal than the others":

The State Department report recites at length the tax-payer funded activities which implement the privileged status of Judaism in US law. Read the report.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/40258.htm

The US should be doing these same things to combat prejudice against Muslims and Christians as well, and not just Jews. Because it doesn't, Jews have a privileged status under US law.

Live with it.

Aww, how cute, look, even more death-threats http://alghurabaa.co.uk/ Reminds me of fluffy puppies.

Jan,

"Now, what muslims simply can NOT seem to get into their skulls is that Arla(and other companys) DID NOT MAKE THOSE DAMN CARTOONS. They have NO influence over them, neither do the danish goverment! The goverment i muslims countries might have power over everything, but that is NOT how i works in Denmark. Please, accept it already!."

They sure have influence over them, if the JP prints "KILL THE QUEEN", the government might have another say on the matter.

A civilized society is not a jungle, it is ruled by laws and regulations.

You could argue that Danish laws allow for such things, and I would understand that. But when you say "Muslim countries have power over everything" I take that as some kind of cynical dishonest comment.

Muslim countries are numbered over 60 countries, have you been to all of them or are you just spewing racist bigoted comments in this thread?

Punishing others for something they are not responsible for is wrong and inhumane especially when it is too harsh.

I hope next time the west imposes harsh inhumane sanctions on some Arab (or any other country) country (Libya, Iraq), you would remember what you wrote today.

Remember half a million Iraqi babies died because of harsh sanctions that were opposed even by Kuwait (Iraq's victim) itself!

Don't think Arabs will forget about that.

Neither will Arabs forget that the United States government was the only one that threatened to veto any resolution that could have lifted the sanctions against Iraq.

And whatever your honorable Madeleine Albright stated, with no shame or impunity, about those victims will never be forgotten.

Karim,
And there would not have been any sanctions or Iraq war if Sadam hd just backed down to the requets made by the rest of the world. Lay the blame where it really belongs.

My God, just look at yourselves, why is it that every time people start to write on these blogs it seems to spiral into religious, and other, abuse. So much misunderstanding and ignorance, its no wonder that we, most unfortunately, cannot 'all get along' (I wish we could). Most here that ask for tolerance show a complete lack of it in return.

Freedom of Speech may well be the cornerstone of the 'civilized' west but so should be cultural awareness and understanding. Although Freedom of Speech does, in essence, allow for anything to be said about anyone at anytime, a civilized society should know that certain lines of decency should not be crossed. Comments (or cartoons) should be tempered with a cultural awareness that is lacking in almost all the World as well as a sense of responsibility that the media (worldwide) lacks completely. What is truly gained from insulting The Prophet Mohammed, how did this enrich our lives? It did not enrich our, or the readers of the Danish newspapers (or anyone else's for that matter) lives, and wasn't even funny, it only fanned the flames of discontent towards the West in an area that is already rife with it. The paper should have been more responsible and more aware of the consequences of such action.

At the same time, the Muslim reaction - although they have, by the very essence of Freedom of Speech so gleefully espoused by so many here, every right to voice their protest - should have been tempered, threats to peoples lives, taking over the EU building in Gaza etc.. does nothing for Islam and only incites the West to misunderstand us even more, we play into the hands of the ignorant that use it to spread more hate and bigotry. We, in our turn, are fanning the flames of discontent against us in the West. Someone here mentioned that the Muslim world lacks good PR, never a truer word said!

It must be noted here that all religions go through a time of 'darkness' when a few fanatics, with a mostly political agenda, derail the entire belief through various disgusting acts. Christianity, for example, had its dark age (Inquisition, persecution of the Jews, Crusades etc..) during which the entire faith was held hostage to the whims of a few politically motivated fanatics. Islam - being 600 years younger than Christianity - is at this point, only with understanding and tolerance - from all sides - will this age be overcome, the political agendas weeded out and real Islam brought into the fore.

Instead of beating each other we should try to learn from each other and bring about a new understanding. Please stop bashing Muslims, its hardly fair since most here - quite obviously from many of the comments - have very little understanding of us at all and thus are speaking from an uneducated standpoint. A good start would be to stop using the term 'Islamic Terrorism', a terrorist is a terrorist no matter what the religion and should be rejected and vilified by one and all once the term Islamic is added it inspires an unjust generalization vis a vis Muslims at large. Bash the criminals that perpetrate these actions, not the religion they pretend to believe in.

Expert Warnings About Cartoons Went Unheeded
By Hasan Cucuk, Copenhagen
Published: Thursday, February 02, 2006
zaman.com

Recent revelations show that the Danish Jyllands Posten newspaper consulted experts before publishing the caricatures that caused conflict between Denmark and the Islamic world.

Professor Tim Jensen, a prominent Danish theologian, said the caricatures should not be published, warning the newspaper "It will offend Muslims and only cause pointless provocation." A lecturer at South Denmark University, Mr. Jensen summarized his answer to Zaman regarding the Jyllands Posten newspaper: "Surely, Denmark has freedom of press, but pictures of the Prophet Mohammed have never existed throughout history. Any picture or caricature to be published will offend Muslims deeply. It would be provocation in a climate where Islam and Muslims are already in the limelight. It's like pouring gas on the fire."

Another point Professor Jensen, a leading expert on religious history and the author of 'Religion Guide' to Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, noted is the depiction of the Prophet Mohammed as a terrorist. "In a climate where Islam is associated with terrorism, depicting the Prophet Mohammed with a bomb on his head is both offensive and insulting" said Jensen, underlining the involved caricatures go beyond normal caricatures or pictures. Jensen added he requested the newspaper evaluate thoroughly its responsibilities and avoid any publications that would rupture up Denmark's relationship with Muslims.

Leading ecclesiastics of Denmark called for moderation of tensions. Copenhagen Bishop Erik Norman Svendsen condemned both the burning of a Danish flag and insulting the Prophet Mohammed via caricatures. Svendsen, calling on Danish citizens to take a cool look, said, "We should not cut dialogue with Muslims." The Viborg Bishop said, "It is difficult for certain people among Danish citizens who do not pay enough attention to religion to realize how far they go when talking about Islam and Muslims." Loland Faster Bishop Steen Skovsgaard said the wound caused by the caricatures will take long time to heal, adding, the dialogue should go on.

Someone said, the West has with its arrogance and technology has developed hatred towards God and anything Godly.
Athist, have a god -they worship their desires(I like that, i want this, etc).
Seems a good point to me.
Also, the saying that we should be FAIR and leave other's faith alone seems very FAIR.
This people are not representatives of the American public, neither west.
Lets be Fair.

NH,
Nice post. But they are called Islamic Terrorist because they do it in the name of Islam. They may be thugs but they do wrap themselves in religion.

Last Post,

That they do it in the 'name of Islam' it does not justify the West calling them Islamic Terrorists, the civilized and educated people of the West should be more aware about the picture that such a classification paints, it breeds misunderstanding and hate. Let's just call them terrorists, or thugs if you like :)

Timothy McVeigh murdered 169 people in the name his religion. Eric Rudoplh killed people in the name his religion. Serbs murdered 250,000 Bosnians in the name of their religion. In their chilling videotapes, they were chanting religious songs and denigrating their captives. US soldiers tortured Iraqies at Abu Ghraib chanting "Jesus is bigger than your God, your God is so weak that he cannot help you". But, no one called them "Christian terrorists"!!!

Not to be confused with another Poster, Liz M, I'm the one trying to have a discourse with Anon without being called names. It was Liz M who wrote about Religious prosecution of non-muslims in other coutries.

Anyway, NH, I'll tell you what breeds misunderstanding and hate, it's seeing crowds of people celebrating the massacre of thousands on 911, it's watching Video Tapes of prople being be-headed while the beheaders praise god, oh my that is the most chiling thing, i will never be able to get those sounds out of my head, I did not watch the video but I listened to it, the sound of that poor man screaming while his head was SAWED off, the sounds of the murderers screaming "Allah Akbar" as they Jotfully, reverently, in the name of Islam, did this, that phrase over and over, louder and louder, sounding so frenetic, so frenzied, so insane, my heart was pounding out of my chest as I listened, the tears just pouring down my face, and the screaming continued. We "civilized and educated" Westerners, who should be so understandng, we see this! we hear this! We watch our flags being burned and our deaths called for! We see cafes and buses blown up! And guess who we see doing this??? Over and over and over??

Liz,
Another good post

Reader,

What the Serbs did is beyond horrific, I did not realize it was done in the name of religion. I do know the US failed, absolutely failed Humanity and all that is good when we did nothing until it was too late.

The US Soldiers, and what they did, was also horrific, and certainly was Timothy McVeigh, who I believe was more motivated by hatred of his government, than of some misguided religious ideal.

But be honest, we do not see these acts in the same degree or intensity as we see horrific acts committed in the name of Islam.

By the way, what do you think is more insulting to the Islamic faith... Using it to justify the killing of thousands of people? Or a cartoon drawing of the Prophet?

This blog has lost to be about ideas anymore.
Everyone is holding on to their end and making everybody else loser.
Someone said, if we leave everyone's religion alone what would happen to our freedom of speech. I say, before this strory didn't you have enough things to write about? All of suden when MUSLIM says, enough is enough, leave us alone, you cite all kind of reasons.

The true reason behind this type of act is bigotry, hate of others.
If Martin Luther King didn't stand up for the black society, were would they be today. Does anybody think that the likes of Governor Wally would have ever said, enough is enough, lets be fair.
Shame of some of you arguing, knowing some of things we're doing is wrong even in our own standards.

Yes all religions have had their Bin Ladens. It is when the main governing bodies fail to make it clear that their religion does not condone such behavior the failure of that religion to be a partner of the rest of the inhabitants becomes apparent. Don't blame the US for Bosnia or Kosovo. I do not recall any Muslim nations dipatching troops, nor Europeans. Funny how Bosnia is America's failure. It was really the world's failure. The issue here is not Okalahoma City, Bosnia, a prison in Iraq. It is the fact that Muslims feel that their religion is so far above everyone elses that the world must cave to their wishes. Religion is the worst thing to happen to planet earth. As John Lenon said "Imagine no religion" I hope someday it becomes true.

Peace (no reason to hate)

Liz, your government killed more than 100000 innocent Iraqis? Who you accusing of being violent?

Let me draw your attention to couple of facts;

-This cartoons stared Sept 2005(almost 3 months ago). The Danish Muslims try politely to bring it to the attention of anyone who would listen (writers, PM, others) everyone said, "Shut up" "citing Free Speech."
-Diplomats and Ambassadors including Turkey tried to get their attention and initiate dialogue and met with the same result (from the same right wing side of the Danes).
-the Islamic world, give Denmark 3 months to be fair and the result was -what can you do.

My point:
Who would thought 3 months ago that the Danish Export will come its knees, who would thought that the it will be Global with still Morocco & Algeria didn't join in (together they account for more than half of DK exports) -un-predicted!
Who would think that the rest of Europe would re-print (clear provocation and connected rightwingers plot) still un-predicted!

So, nobody has control at all. Tomorrow is Friday and the rest of the populations & countries can add up to bring EEU to its knees.
I say to folks, don't complain later, because you escalated it.
Some groups are simply leading us to war with no end, and we be wise to say no thanks!

To Blank

You wrote:
'The issue here is not Okalahoma City, Bosnia, a prison in Iraq.
It is the fact that Muslims feel that their religion is so far above everyone elses that the world must cave to their wishes.'

But this is not true. Can you guys imagine this!
They are not asking the world to cave in into anything; they simply saying, leave Allah and prophets alone.
Didn't you have enough subjects to write about before this?
And then you make reference about God.
See, the only arrogant creature on the planet(human) would challenge the creator.
With all your arrogance as human, we know when your last hour comes you call the Minster -You not kidding me.
I think, it was Stalin that called the minsters even though he declared No god via Communism.

The majority of the Americans or Europeans have not done anything to us. It's a minority or right-wing groups that would want nothing less than us stopping our worship of Allah and wearing the cloth that Allah has asked us to wear (covering properly).
Why are you hiding behind the things like West, freedom of expression?

These groups will not leave you alone by saying, "That is un-fair, play it fair" They won't understand that "Allah and Prophets are off limits". They will continue to ridicule our sacred institutions.

If I am not mistaken there is a very big difference between cartoons ridiculing Jews (or Jewish personalities) and Moses, Jesus etc. I have seen some very funny cartoons with Moses dipicted ... and I'm an observant Jew.

Iam_Muslim,
I believe in God. Only my God will judge me on my final days and ask how I treated my fellow man. I will answer fairly even to those who where not fair to me. I live by the Golden Rule "Do unto others as you would others do unto you". Since my beleif is to do no harm to my fellow man I find reading and listening to people on this blog that civilization on both sides of this issue are doomed.

Liz says:

"But be honest, we do not see these acts in the same degree or intensity as we see horrific acts committed in the name of Islam."

i am being honest. those cruelties in Bosnia and Abu Ghraib were at least as visious as what Al-Qaede did. but your one-sided media display things the way they want you to think, and you are entrapped! if you keep watching Fox TV, you will hear tons of objective (!!!!) news.

those people were chanting "say Lord Jesus, your God can't help you now, where is your God hahaha?, my God is bigger than yours, etc." if this is not in the name of religion, then what is it?!

where are the weapons of mass destruction?! mass destruction happened to 100,000 iraqies!

Iam_Muslim,
I believe in God. Only my God will judge me on my final days and ask how I treated my fellow man. I will answer fairly even to those who where not fair to me. I live by the Golden Rule "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you". Since my beleif is to do no harm to my fellow man I find reading the posts on this blog that civilization on both sides of this issue are doomed.

Reader,
You said.
i am being honest. those cruelties in Bosnia and Abu Ghraib were at least as visious as what Al-Qaede did.

Abu Ghraib was at least as vicious as 9/11 are you out of touch. No one had their throat slit, no one had to jump a hundred stories to their death to escape flames. I'm not saying what happen at Abu Ghraib wan't bad, but come on it pales in comparison.

Liz, open your eyes and ears, listen to what Hakan said above:

"Serbs (who are Christians) killed about 250,000 Muslim Bosnians and gang-raped 40,000 women systematically. They raped women in front of their husbands, fathers, mothers, children by saying that "We will plant a seed of Jesus in you!". They also sodomized men. A few-month old babies banged from wall to wall until their brains were erupted from their tiny skulls! Recently mass-graves were found in Srebrenica where 10,000 men murdered and buried by Serbs under supervision of heroic Dutch soldiers!"

do you think this is in the name of a can of soda or something else?

do you think swinging and banging a month old babies bodies from wall to wall is not violent? their little fragile skulls exploded then Serbs put all those bodies in mass graves.

how do you feel, if a group of people rape you in front of your entire family, force them watch the act then sodomized the males of your family in front of their children? do you think this is not violent.

i wish whoever killed innocent people (including Al-Qaeda) will go straight to hell.

Above Post (you do use you name, so I cannot address you properly...)

What the Serbs did is intolerable! It defies justification! It is Terror, horror and all manner of evil. I deplore it, I condemn it! Done in the name of Christianity? They will go to Hell. As they deserve.

I said in my note: "What the Serbs did is beyond horrific, I did not realize it was done in the name of religion. I do know the US failed, absolutely failed Humanity and all that is good when we did nothing until it was too late." I di dnto realzie they were doing this in the name of our Lord. That makes me sick.

NOWHERE have I said there has been no other terror than that done by people done in the name of Islam.

But I stand by the FACT that the majority of acts in todays world are committed by
people who PROFESS to be of the Muslim faith, and in the name of that Faith.

Reader, I do not have cable, I do not watch FOX TV News. People on this board have made many assumptions about me, and claim to know who and what I am, and "people like me". And right tafter they do that, they accuse me of doing the very same thing.

I watch Jim Lehrer on PBS every night.

Also, another nameless poster says to me:
"Liz, your government killed more than 100000 innocent Iraqis? Who you accusing of being violent?"

That # is bogus, that number came from a survey where people were asked "How many people do you know who were killed by the US bombs" and they answered. The same person could get counted over and over.

That said, the loss of any innocent life due to the US liberation of IRAQ is very regretful, an apology from me would mean nothing, I imagine, but I apologize with all my heart. But I also know with my heart that we did not intentionally target civilians becasue they were civilians. I know that doesn't make their death any less tragic. But I do not see moral equivalence between the two.

I am done here, this makes me too sad.

But I say to all, I will not lay down for Sharia law to be imposed on me or my country. I think it is too late for Europe. And I truly believe that is the true goal (and in some cases, the Stated Goal) of the ******* extremists.

Liz,

as you see, violence and terror is horrific, no matter from where they came from!

what i am angry is that the west accuses the whole 1.5 billion muslims because of some cruel extremists did.

i am a muslim. i have never ever injured a person in my life and will not. the last thing i will do is to do harm to anyone. i learned from islam. what i want is, when i die, people say 'he was a good person, he treated everone well'. that is it.

therefore i strongly condemn all terror organizations and their members, e.g. al-qaeda, hamas, taliban, nazis, serb militias, occupier soviet communists and so forth.
according to islam, human life is the most sacred thing. koran says 'taking an innocent person's life is like taking the lives of all humans'. this is what i represent. i hate violence, cruelty and terror. i hope all those perpetrators will rot in hell.

i want to co-exist with christians, jews, budists, hindus, etc. with peace and dignity.

i apologize if i offend anyone with my language. but i was very mad! my religion, my prophet, my holy book and myself are being accused because of what some terrorists did.

have a nice day!

Hello All,

Let me explain something. Most of the Westerners do not know it. Today, there are people who claim to be Muslims and they commit acts of terror. Great majority of these of "Muslims" belong to "Salafi" a.k.a. "Wahhabi" sect. This sect was established about 2-3 centuries ago in today's Saudi Arabia by a man named Abdul-Wahhab. He claimed that Islam had been degenerated, and needed to go back to its roots. Then he established this "extremist" sect. Wahhabism is the official state religion of S.Arabia. But not all S.Arabians are Wahhabi! However, they are enforced Wahhabism by the state.

Wahhabism is something far away from mainstream Islam (what Muhammad (pbuh) brought). When it was established, they even tried to demolish the tomb of the Prophet, clamining that it was idoltary! The tomb barely survived. Their path is an extreme path. They claim a lot of things permitted by Islam and as impermissable. Basically they made up a lot of things and gave Islam a bad name. They made Islam something it is not. They made Islam a religion which very hard to live and follow. That's the problem. This extremism causes such violent acts.

On the other hand, maybe 90-95% Muslims belong to the 4 main "schools of thought": Hanafi, Shafii, Maliki and Hanbali. Shia is considered the 5th one by some scholars, it is sometimes excluded. Shia is the official state religion of Iran.

These 4 schools of thought preach peace, justice, righteousness. They strongly oppose terrorism, violence, killing innocent people etc.

Another thing a lot of Westerners do not know is "Jihad". Jihad means "struggle". The major component of jihad is "self-struggle" and it requires Muslims to avoid alcohol, drugs, adultery / fornication (any kind of sexual activity outside wedlock), nudity, cheating, lying, back-biting, stealing, killing etc (Like 10 commandments). When one achieves these, he has a good chance to go to Paradise. Of course, these good deeds must be coupled with 5-times-a-day daily prayers, fasting during Ramadan, giving charity to the poor, helping each other, respecting family members, neighbors etc. And those who disregard these requirements have a good chance to go to Hell. But nobody's final destination is known. Even for prophets, Paradise is not guaranteed. Allah says, He is the most merciful and the most compassionate. He accepts people to Paradise with his compassion, mercy and forgivingness. That's why all Muslims try to do their best to win Paradise, because it is not guaranteed. Therefore we "self-struggle" every day.

The minor part of jihad is interpreted by many scholars (for today's World) as struggling in science, techology, medicine, economic prosperity, education and so on. Because Allah wants Muslims to make progress ever day towards being a better Ummah (nation).

Please consult Koran and Hadith for details, or ask some well-educated, open-minded scholar.

Bye.

The first "ayah" or "ayet" (sentence) of Koran was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) through angel Gabriel, when he was contemplating in a secluded place. This sentence is:"Read!". We can interpret this as "learn" as well. The first thing Islam wanted humans to do is to learn, become literate, get education.

Islam also says "getting knowledge is farz-u-ayn (obligatory) for every male and female Muslim". That is why education is essential.

Prophet says "go learn knowledge, even if it is in China!". In 7th century, China was known to be the most remote country to the Arabian peninsula. This stresses the significance of education and science.

If you see those terrorists, most of them grew in poor neighborhoods, in poor families, get almost no education. That is why they are the easiest targets of terrorist groups. They recruit them, feed, clothe and brainwash! There you go!

Muslims have been in a state of continuous decline for 3-4 centuries. Koran says "if you leave the path of Allah, you will be losers". This is what is happening now. When Muslims act like good Muslims (in terms of knowledge, hard-work, character and integrity) Allah will reinstate what they deserve.

Liz,
Do you also want to coexist with the Gays who in the name of your religion are persecuted and killed in Saudi Arabia, and Iran? Arrested in Egypt for having a party where men dance with men. You only talk about religious rights what about sexual rights. The right to have sex with who ever I want as long as it is between to consentual adults. Islam in Europe wants to limite this right. I fight back. I know I have said it further up but evrything is not about religion. I have never been violent Gay people rarely are most of the time its religious people who are violent towards the ones like me.
The Gay Dane.

i find it very sad that some of the muslims, who where offended by the cartoons brought in jyllandsposten, would go on the streets and burn the danish flag and threathen to kill every danes they will find. Jyllandsposten is a independent newspaper, and is NOT as newspapers are, in many muslim countries owned or controlled by the state, and does not by any means, represent the opninon of the danish people, only the opinion of the author. but according to danish law, he has the right to riddicule who or whatever he wants, thats the freedom of speech. isnt it?. i see a bit of irony in muslims burning the danish flag, ( red with a white crusifix) and thereby possibly offend all christians, by doing the exact same thing.... i just wonder.

THE NEWSPAPERS WHO PUBLISHED IT TALKED ABOUT THE FREEDOM OPF SPEECH. IS IT BY ANY SENSE BEING A PARTY OF HUMANITY THAT YOU WRITE AND SAY BAD THINGS ABOUT THE MOST IMPORTANT PEOPLE OF A ANY RELIGION. WHICH RELIGION IN THIS WORLD GIVE YOU PERMISSION TO WRITE BAD ABOUT ANYONE? WHY ARE PEOPLE JUST MAKING UP THING. ITS SO TRUE ANYONE WHO WANT SOME MEDIA COVERAGE, WRITE A COLUMN OR SAY SOMETHING ABT MUSLIMS. WHY IS THAT? I AM MUSLIM, I RESPECT EACH AND EVERY PERSON IN THE WORLD WITH ANY RELIGION HE/SHE MAY HAVE! BECAUSE THAT'S WHT I HAVE BEEN TAUGHT BY MY RELIGION. DUE YOU THINK BY ANY MEAN IT IS JUSTIFIED THAT YOU START PICTURIZING THE MOST HOLY MAN OF A RELIGION? WHY DO YOU JUST CAN'T LIVE IN PEACE AND STOP THE FIGHT FOR CAPITALIZIM. A SENSIBLE PERSON SAYS SOMETHING WHICH ONE HAS A BASE, SOME EVIDENCE ABOUT WHAT HE/SHE IS SAYING OR PUBLISHING! DOES THAT NEWSPAPERS OR THE WHOLE TEAM INVOLVED HAD ANY IDEA WHAT KIND OF PERSON HAZARAT MUHAMMAD ( P.B.U.H) WAS? YOU PEOPLE NEED TO LEARN ABOUT HIM, THE WAY HE SPENT HIS LIFE, THE WAY HE TREATED THE HUMAN BEINGS? THE WAY HE TREATED THE PEOPLE OF OTHER RELIGION, THE WAY HE GAVE RESPECT TO THE WOMAN AND THE RIGHTS THEY HAVE TODAY, THE WAY HE SUFFERED AND NEVER COMPLAINED. THE DAY YOU HAVE DONE YOUR HONEST STUDIES ON HIM.THAT DAY YOU CAN WRITE OR PUBLISH ANYTHING ABOUT IT, NOTHING BUT TRUTH.AND I PROMISE THAT DAY YOU WON'T HAVE ANYTHING BUT A PRAISE AND RESPECT FOR THE MOST HOLY AND MOST RESPECTFUL MAN THAT HAS EVER SET HIS FOOT ON THE EARTH.
I CAN SEE THE ANGER IN THE MUSLIM BROTHERS AND SISTERS HEART AND MANY PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES ARE TALKING ABOUT MUSLIMS BEING HARSH. JUST PUT YOURSELF IN THE SAME STATE AND THINK WHAT WILL YOU DO WHEN SOMEBODY TRIES TO WRITE LIES ABOUT YOUR RELIGION.
EVERY RELIGION SHOULD BE GIVEN RESPECT AND EVERYMAN SHOULD BE RESPECTED, THAT'S WHAT I HAVE BEEN TAUGHT BY MY RELIGION.ISLAM STANDS FOR PEACE. I KNOW ALL OF US WANT PEACE BUT THERE ARE ALWAYS SOME BAD PEOPLE IN ALL SOCITIES, ALL RELIGIONS WHICH TRY TO MAKE US FIGHT WITH EACH OTHER, THE SECRET OF WORLD PEACE LIES IN FIGHTING AGAINST THOSE EVIL FORCES WHICH ARE TRYING TO POISON OUR MINDS WITH HATRED, I KNOW IT IS HARD TO STOP THEM BUT ITS NOT POSSIBLE.

Liz (or is it Elizabeth?),

I cannot deny that scenes of joy at the horrific events of 9/11 and the videos of those being beheaded do, in fact, help to breed misunderstanding and hate. It seems, however, that you fail to realise just how many Muslims abhor these acts and are sickened when the beheaders chant "Allah Akbar' while committing these atrocities. These disgusting people are using 'Islam' to try and justify and unjustifiable act, this is not real Islam - by any stretch of the imagination - and by doing this they are irreparably hurting us, our religion and the views of the West about us.

The point is, however, that by the West allowing itself to be drawn in by these acts - and, as a consequence, damming us and our religion - they are playing into the hands to these murderers and allowing them to 'win'. They want the West to hate us because this will, eventually, cause the 'clash of civilizations' that they so desperately yearn for. To hate us all for their actions is just another form of collective punishment which, from any point of view, is wrong.

We cannot hate all Americans for the actions of a few misguided idiots that chase oil (and yes Iraq is all about oil) at the expense of Arabs. This is wrong and stupid and if we do this, reacting negatively towards Americans in general, then we are playing into the hands of the misguided few and giving them the fuel (no pun intended) to take further misguided - and frankly downright stupid - decisions then we are being ignorant and stupid. Americans do not make their foreign policy but these polices are implemented in the name of Americans. In the same token, Muslims do not make the policies of these murderers but these murderers implement these policies in the name of Islam.

The whole essence of a civilized and educated West - to use the phrase again - people is to be able to transcend these things and to look into the hearts and minds of real Muslims thereby understanding us and realising that the afore-mentioned murderers are an abomination. This is what a civilized and educated people must strive for, they must try to overcome the knee jerk reactions that these atrocities naturally induce and look objectively and logically at the whole.

On the whole the Muslim world does not approve of these people, what they do they do, what they stand for and what they have done to us as a people. Frankly, we hate them a great deal more than the West can ever hate them, they are destroying us and our religion but what exactly can we do? The US with all its might can hardly stop them so what can we do? We try, those of us that care, to do something by getting involved - as we are doing, for example, in this discussion - but generally, despite what many Westerners seem to think, they are not our 'brothers' and we cannot control them.

You know instead of arguing with one another about religion and pointing out the atrocities that each religion has, in the name of God - as though he would ever approve! - committed (and there are many on all sides) we should be trying, especially in these forums, to understand each other and come to some sort mutual respect and acceptance. If we edcuated people that can read, write and understand cannot overcome our petty differences (and they are petty) then how do you expect the masses to do so? Learn from each other and, as a result, understand each other, do not argue mute points that lead absolutely nowhere.

As a last point, to the Gay people that have commented herein, there are Gays all over the Arab world - in fact, although most would never admit it, we may well have invented it :) - and they are not 'persecuted' through, as you state, the whole Arab World. You are looking, yet again, at the extremists and the extremist states only. Have a look at Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Morocco etc.. etc.. or have you forgotten that these secular countries exist within the Arab World?

Hey all, (good to be back)..

Just been reading through these posts, Liz, Brad and the Danish guys have some good posts.. Many Others too

However I still stand by the Danes and Europe, freedom of speech, expression and the right not to be persecuted for just that is a monumental human right!

Lets look to Muslim nations, if Islam is such a righteous religion lets follow your examples:

.Execute homosexuals
.cover up our glorious women
.preach to our citizens that any people of any other religion should be killed
.make pigs extinct (who will eat them)
.Pray 5 times a day all in the same way at the same time.

Surely prayer is between the prayee and god himself.
The covering of women is positioned as religious, this is total crap.. This is based on tribal ways of men controlling women (who aren't even educated in the name of Islam) all to have control.

Did you see "The Matrix", you know the film which was ultimately all about control, Islam is the same , dumbing down it's people in order to maintain control and eleminate the freedom of speech and the "god-given" right to question whatever you want..

God (or whoever) gave you the ability to learn,question,think,speak use it your own way don't follow stupid people like lemmings and do as they do.

Certain things are true about the wests double standards, but we have the right to that if we want, just because you don't have that right don't come stomping you hands and feet and come crying to me..

Islam want's it's cake and the ability to eat it (as well as force it down everyone elses throats). I for one applaud the european support for Denmark and the european policies of free speech, they are saying : "don't try to force your religious beliefs down our throats or we'll throw our freedoms down yours", obviously The european freedoms are more powerful..

P.S all muslim nations can boycott all european / western produce thats fine by me, I can live without a car, I can get energy for my house via solar and other alternate sources.

I don't need your oil (saudi is only #4 on us OIL imports behind Canada and s.america

You know what.. I've finally figured it out.

Everytime a *muslim* does something bad:

bomb someone
blow up buddhist temples in afghanistan
burn flags
fly planes into buildings
etc

The muslim people say.. "this person is not representing Islam blah blah".

Guess what neither the Artist or JP or any other european nation are representing christianity or anything else except their freedoms.

It's all well and good for Islam to distance itself from the terrorists and the evil preaching immams.. However why not lock them up instead ?

Danish people...

As you all know (lets tell other here), what happened was:

12 pictures were published in JP, we've all seen them

15!!! (yes 3 more) were added to a document by DANISH ISLAMIC CLERICS and taken to Egypt and Lebanon to cause a stir.

These extra 3 pictures were hella offensive:
Mohammed with a Pig Snout
Praying Muslims being raped by dogs
(can't remember the third).

WHY did a ISLAMIC CLERIC add these additional pictures. Surely the very act of this is UNISLAMIC in itself.

These so called holy people should be forced to go on international television and ask for forgivness to allah.

Of course, we can't (and won't) arrest them or persecute them because they have the freedoms of speech.. however they can be tried under islamic law which applies to muslims (not to me).

However propaganda with the intent to insight violence is a crime and they can (and should be punished) by that.

To be honest, many unedcuated people in Asia and the middle east believe what they are told, if they are told that that it's ok to kill yourself and others for religion they believe it, twisted words and propaganda ESPECIALLY by so-called religious muslims is pathetic.

Gary,

You're an arrogant, rude, bigoted, ignorant and stupid man with nothing of any value to say. Anyone that has to revert to the movie the Matrix and abuses a religion - he clearly knows nothing about - to illustrate a point obviously lacks any knowledge or education whatsoever. With people like you in the world it is little wonder that there is so much hate. It's a shame you came back, the conversations were just becoming civilised, a concept you obviously have no idea about.

Instead of 'figuring us out' why don't you try concentrating on figuring out what made you such a hateful, bitter human being.

NH,
That was a stupid reply to Gary's post. All he said is he likes the freedome to believe in anything of his choosing. Not being held hostage to some other persons view of the world, or being chastised be cause he is a free thinking individual. Your response was typical of a person who is repressed and lashes out because they have no freedom of thought.

Here is good point

French Foreign Minister Philippe Douste-Blazy condemned the protests in a television interview.

"I am totally shocked and find it unacceptable that -- because there have been caricatures in the West -- extremists can burn flags or take fundamentalist or extremist positions which would prove the cartoonists right," he said.

NH
By the way you might want to look up the word bigot. It applies mostly to you opinion.

So much of Western world got this and that which others want to have a bite badly. Look at China, Japan, India and Korea which are going to be the powerhouse of the future. Layoffs, bankruptcy, are the thought of western world now, that's why can't spend a time to think about SQ - Spiritual Intelligence.

Chin,
What does that have to do with freedom of speech?

PS,

With all due respect- and although I may have made a mountain out of a molehill (bad day) - the point Gary was making was completely lost in the wording, as follows:

'Did you see "The Matrix", you know the film which was ultimately all about control, Islam is the same , dumbing down it's people in order to maintain control and eleminate the freedom of speech and the "god-given" right to question whatever you want..

'God (or whoever) gave you the ability to learn,question,think,speak use it your own way don't follow stupid people like lemmings and do as they do.'

Or maybe:

'You know what.. I've finally figured it out.
Everytime a *muslim* does something bad:
bomb someone
blow up buddhist temples in afghanistan
burn flags
fly planes into buildings
etc
The muslim people say.. "this person is not representing Islam blah blah".'

Please PS, Gary's is not a speech on Freedom of Expression - not here (above) or anywhere else on this blog that Gary has posted (if you read it) - this is abusing something he knows nothing about. Islam does not stop us from free thought, does not 'dumb us' etc.. not even close.

By the way, Bigot is defined as 'One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ'. If you've read my previous posts you would know that that does not apply.

PS,

Additionally, Islam does not limit Freedom of Speech, nor does it attempt to control our everyday lives or eliminate the right to question, that is done by our Governments, not our religion.

Then you know it dosen't apply to Gary

Which government is that?

NH

Which government is that?

Who posted in my name, please, and what does the post refer to?

PS,

I have reviewed the various posts noted above and I realize that I have confused other writer's postings with Gary. Gary is not a bigot (although he has little respect for the opinions of others) - he's just ignorant about Islam and full of hate. My apologies :)

Also, the governments in question are Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Algeria (to name a few) all of which, except for Syria, are happily supported by the West.

Dear NH,

I appreciate your comments about how mainstream Muslims hate those terrorists. You have just stressed the point that I was trying to make. I agree with you totally.

My family, relatives, friends, neigbors and I hate those criminals. Because of them, many Muslims are discriminated, harassed, verbally and physically abused in many part of the "civilized" World.

Since 9/11, more than 100 mosques in the US were vandalized by some cowards. Some mosques were vandalized repeatedly. In many cases, police arrived soon and found the perpetrators. Swastikas were sprayed on the walls, curses and racial slurs were painted, sometimes the imams were physically abused, pig carcasses, beer cans, wine bottles were thrown around and inside the mosques, in several cases the properties and cars of the staff members of the mosques were shot by guns, tires were punctured, windshields were shattered etc.

How many of you have seen these on American TV's? Because they were too unimportant!!!!

A few months ago, a 8.5-month pregnant woman was walking to her house in Washington DC. At that moment, the street was quite silent, then a group of men in truck approached her, got out of their vehicle, pushed her around like a baseball, beat her, and verbally abused saying "you go back to your f*** cave, you ugly ni**er", etc. She happens to be a black Muslim woman of 25 years of age who converted to Islam several years ago.

In 2004, in Germany, a 6-month pregnant Turkish woman was walking with her toddler daughter. She was ambushed in a dea-end street, and bludgeoned by a baseball bat by five men! They deliberately hit her belly, and also beat the hell out of her 3-year old daughter. They survived after long treatments in the hospital, but since the fetus was banged, s/he died.

All these did not make me a Christian-hater or Jew-hater whatsoever! Because I have a lot of Christian and Jew friends. We respect each other, we accept each other the way we are, we try to understand each other by trying to learn religions, customs of each other, thus we get along very well.

In this forum, there are some individials who are sunk deep down in the sea (rather ocean) of their biases and misconceptions. A lot of people here tried to reason with them, but they refuse it stubbornly. Clearly they withstand to understand!

The Western societies should be able to have their free media, that is fine. We request some respect from them for our religious figures such as Allah, Prophet (pbuh), Koran. Every time you make of these, Muslims will be injured very much. To reciprocate it, we, Muslims should also do our best to treat non-Muslims kindly and respectfully. If we can agree on this point, tons of problems will be resolved automatically.

Violence and terror are extremely horrific acts. But unfortunately there have been, are and will be such brainwashed perpetrators. But it is not easy to deter them, we do our best.

I don't see the problem. In my opinion, muslims are violent people and terrorists, and all terorists are muslims, so it's perfectly legitimate to associate Muhammed with bombs.

PS,
Although I have already stated this on another blog - and at the risk of repeating myself - I feel that it also applies greatly to this particular blog People have posted their 'opinions' on this blog but allow me to tell you a Sufi story about 'Opinion' written by Rumi (the great Sufi Master) ...

'An elephant had been brought from a far country, and it was being kept in a dark stable. Some people entered, and as they could not see, they started to feel their way. The first man felt the ears, and thought that they were fans. The second felt the legs, and concluded that they were pillars. The third, touching the trunk, felt sure that this must be a snake. They had no lantern with them, otherwise there would have been no discord of opinion. Opinion, you see, is based upon fragmentary, not total, experience.'

The lesson to be learned from the above; if you do not know the whole story (in this case Islam) then your opinion is bound to be, at best, a very bad judgement. That's not to say the people aren't entitled to them, only that they are usually erroneous because they are never based on a full knowledge of the subject.

Someone commented about women's clothing in Islam. Well, if you are not a Muslim, how can you interfere in this matter? You do not know anything about Islam let alone the details of Islamic theology. It is as silly as a Muslim crticizing the clothings of nuns, priests or orthodox Jewish men and women. I do not know the details of Christian or Jewish theology therefore I do not interfere. If they feel comfortable in those outfits, they should wear them.

"The Matrix" is sci-fi movie, what does it have to do with Islam? If you want to learn about Islam, watch "The Message" directed by Moustapha Akkad in 1979 and starred by Anthony Quinn et al.

Hakan,
All groups, religious, nationalist..etc..all have their bad apples. Unfortunatley for Islam their is a fanatical group that has perptrated terrible crimes against humanity and Isalm. Their behavior is so horrific that it overshadows others terrible behavior. These fanatics who have hijacked Islam go out of their way to make the terror tactics the most horific they can. Yes their are other bad things happening in the world, but in comparison they pale to these fantics behavior.

tulli says "all Muslims are violent".

Well, I am Muslims and I have never been violent. Many times there were situations where I could have lost my temper and physically fight. But I remembered a hadith from Muhammad (phuh): "A strong man is not a man who defeats his rival in wrestling; a strong man is a man who can overcome his anger".

The deeper my faith got, the more compassionate and patient I have become.

How do you explain "me" as an individual? I am living example of a violation of your "theory".

Hakan

The Meek Shall Inherite the Earth.

See Muslim's are not the only ones who get upset over freedom of speech issues.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/TV/02/03/leisure.willgrace.reut/index.html

PS, I think, to you history starts from 9/11. Go back to about 2000 years and start to learn what happened in the history.

NH, Rumi in an exquisite example of characteristic of a perfect Muslim. I just loved your story, I wish I had read it before. Thanks!

I would like to quote from Einstein: It is harder to crack a prejudice than an atom. http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein

Hakan
Apperntly it is impossible to extend an olice branch to you.

Hakan
Apperntly it is impossible to extend an olive branch to you.

Hakan,

Thank you, Rumi is fantastic .. try reading Isdaria Shah and Inayat Khan (Universal Sufism), very good.

Tulli,
You must be joking!! What an awful thing to say!!

PS,

I agree with Hakan, history began well before 9/11. Islamic Terrorists (a term I hate to use since it conjures up all the wrong images) did not invent terrorism, it has been around a very long time. Actually, it began with the Jews fighting the Romans in ancient Arabia. The fact that a few terribly misguided individuals use it now to further their political aims, in the name of Islam, is lamentable and does nothing for Muslims that love peace, however, it does not 'overshadow' past and current crimes of others, as a matter of fact, many current crimes being committed against Arabs (Iraq?) is only serving to fuel the terrorists and expand their ranks. It is something that we must all, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu etc.. fight as one.

NH
Who exactly is commiting crimes and fueling the teeriost.
Did you ever think that maybe if the insurgents in Iraq stopped killing Arab Muslims along with US Troops, and worked to form a inclusive government that the US would leave Iraq? Or is that just to hard to comprehend. The crimes in Iraq are Arab on Arab, Muslim on Muslim crimes. And if don't think that then you ar totaly out of touch with reality. Anyway this blog is about free speech.

PS,
Living in denial is really quite a blessing isn't it? Who started the Iraqi war and why? America, for oil. The WMD excuse was, as soon as the US got there, quickly squashed and then the US turned to 'Democracy' as an excuse. What did the invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq mean, the death of hundreds and thousands of Iraqis. The US had no idea on how to handle the aftermath of the War. Iraq has always had ethnic problems and this, if anyone had bothered to read history before invading Iraq, was the problem that was to be faced in a post-Saddam Iraq. No one in the US is seems, however, reads history and learns from it. The result, a total disaster!

Insurgents, you mean the ones the US has created through indiscriminate bombings, torture etc.. The US has, not only in Iraq but now worldwide in it's 'fight against terrorism', resorted to methods that were once the sole domain of terrorists.

The result of all the above - the US has increased the ranks of the terrorist organizations.

Anyway, to get back to free speech, and as I have mentioned above in my post to Liz, there is a line between free speech and common decency and if you cannot see that then you really do have your 'eyes wide shut'. I am all for free speech but one lives in a multicultural world and, as such, one must temper free speech with cultural awareness, otherwise it becomes pure rudeness.

PS,

I love olive branch. If you see my previous comments, I repeatedly said that I believe that Abrahamic religions do not condone violence, although I have witnessed many horrific acts committed by the members of those religions. I regards them as marginal groups who do not represent the whole Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

NH

If Sadam had let the UN inspectors in (since the entire world except for maybe you thought there was WMD in Iraq) the US would not have invaded Iraq. So please stop that stupid rant. The United Nations demanded Sadam comply he didn't. When the US was poised to strike he still remained defiant and the US called his bluff. So please spare me.
And by the way free speech means just that free speech. It sometimes is meant to upset people. If you want to get upset about what someone said then use your free speech to state your oppinion.

who or what authorized the US to invade Iraq? just because you have political and economic power, you are free to invade wherever you like, whatever you do! having power does not make you right!

Can't wait to see what happens with Iran. Thumbing thier nose at the whole world.

reader said
who or what authorized the US to invade Iraq? just because you have political and economic power, you are free to invade wherever you like, whatever you do! having power does not make you right!

Dosen't the US wrong either.

reader said
who or what authorized the US to invade Iraq? just because you have political and economic power, you are free to invade wherever you like, whatever you do! having power does not make you right!

Dosen't make the US wrong either.

Blank said
Can't wait to see what happens with Iran. Thumbing thier nose at the whole world.

Just like Sadam did.

Hello again,

1.5 billion Muslims were strongly offended by these cartoons and they are quite upset.

Allah has infinite "hikmet" or "hikma" (wisdom). Whatever happens, happens for a reason. We do not know what is going to happen! Since God is the creator or the Universe, and loves us very much, everything will turn out OK.

The rate of non-Muslims who are converting to Islam in western countries has substantially increased after 9/11, although the opposite trend was expected. Why? Because 9/11 sparked a lot of questions in people's mind. They wondered why this happened, what the role of Islam was. Many people tried to explore Islam through many resources. As they were searching for answers, they discovered that Islam indeeds promotes justice, peace, righteousness, decency. Then they converted. On the other hand, we do not hear any Muslim converting to some other religion. I have personally seen quite a few people converted to Islam.

This cartoon madness sparked new quesions. I am sure there are, now, a lot of curious people looking for the answers. When they find them out, this rate will increase further. Because "you cannot cover the Sun", no matter how thick your curtain is.

That is why, I urge all Muslims to calm down. Do not get involve in anything violent or unpleasant! Be careful, be thoughful, be prudent. We must show the real face of Islam to non-Muslims, this is our primary duty.

Every night bares a sunset. Every darkness leads to light eventually.

Peace on Earth!

I would like to thank the British and their media, because they did not publish those infamous cartoons (yet!). It was a prudent and wise decision. They showed that freedom comes with responsibilities. They have my sympathies.

TO ALL

Maybe Americans are just desensitized to religious/cultural ridicule and derogatory comments. We need to understand that as citizens of a free speech nation, we have been accustomed to seeing and hearing jokes about Christians and Jews and what have you. You need to look at this from the perspective of those in the Middle East.
I'm not defending their violent behaviors at this time, but maybe if you were to step and understand that this is a blasphemous act to their religion (and thus, to their society and everything else that they live for), you'd see that the resort to violence is just a normal act. Again, I'm not defending the Muslims-- I'm just trying to understand where all this hate and animosity is stemming from.

Hakan,
I didn't see them in the U.S. press either. Wonder why you failed to mention that.

Good point Amber, thanks! This is what we need and it is called "mutual respect" which leads to "mutual understanding" which leads to peace.

Muslims do not want to destroy Christian countries! They do not want to silence your free media. You can do whatever you want, but there are very sensitive points which needs to be handled with finesse.

If someone makes sarcastic comments about any Muslim leader or public figure today, I totally do not mind at all. In fact some of Jay Leno's jokes (about Muslims) cracks me up! However, when it is comes God, Prophet (pbuh) and Koran, I cannot withstand.

Muslims and Christians have many differences in their cultures. It is like two neighboring families with different customs. It is always to polite not to offend when your neighbor is in your house or when they are listening to you. Some of the things that is quite acceptable in your family may not be as acceptable as you think in their household. When you respect them, they will reciprocate the same way.

One more thing: Only 18% of Muslims are Arabs. Among Arabs, there Christians and Jews as well. Arabs do not represent Islam. This is a very common fallacy. The remaining %82 does not speak Arabic, although there are a small number of people who learned it somehow. They do not wear long skirts and towels in their heads, women do not wear burkas! Indeed, many Arabs do not wear aforementioned outfits at all! Before judging something, get some knowledge.

PS is right. Thanks to the US press for not publishing those notorious cartoons, and whatever country that showed the same sensitivity. I cannot list all!

I remember when Sinead O connor ripped up a picture of the Pope on Satuday Night Lives she of course was well within her right to express herself in the manner. Now for those of who she was not booed but still faces hostility in America today..for something she did what 10 years ago. While the newspapers have the right to publish they can not claim ignorance that the Muslim reaction would be nothing short of hostile. Right or wrong the perception is that the west is at war with Islam.There is an mentality in the west that muslim should 'chill out" but a persons belief in their faith and the willingness to die for it needs to be respected.Wheter you agree with it or not if you do not respect one right to die for what they belive then what do you believe in.

Some one mentioned earlier that the economic Boycott was taking things further. I disagree, I would rather protest by boycotting products and showing the economic power of the consumer then resort to burning flags and indulging in discriminate firing outside buildings and thereby reinforcing the view that some people in the west have that Islam is a religion of Intolerance. Why not use economics as a means of non violent protest?

I agree with Amber that you need to look at it from the perspective of the 1 billion muslims. I study in a catholic school and we have the crucifix in every room. have you ever entered a mosque and seen a similar symbol related to the Prophet Mohamamed? There is a very simple reason for that, that is is considered blasphemous. Hence the outrage. The outrage in addition is more because newspapers all over europe decided to publish it, if it had just been Denmark the issue may have eventually died down. Now I can only say that fuel has been added to the fire.
Freedom is important, but it also needs to come with its sence of duties and responsibilities.

I knew this whole situation reminded me of something i saw in a film once !

Monty Pythons - Life of Brian

The link is here below ! Search for the word "jehova" and read on !

http://www.angelfire.com/movies/closedcaptioned/brian_transcript.txt

Please note that this is NOT to offend ANYBODY - but i think in these troubled times, one needs to step one step back and look at the bigger problems in the world - hunger, war and so on !

Please read the following press release:

WHAT WOULD MUHAMMAD DO?
By Ibrahim Hooper
Word Count: 600

[Ibrahim Hooper is National Communications Director for the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), the nation's largest Muslim civil liberties group. He may be contacted at: ihooper@cair-net.org ]

"You do not do evil to those who do evil to you, but you deal with them with forgiveness and kindness." (Sahih Al-Bukhari)

That description of Islam's Prophet Muhammad is a summary of how he reacted to personal attacks and abuse.

Islamic traditions include a number of instances of the prophet having the opportunity to strike back at those who attacked him, but refraining from doing so.

These traditions are particularly important as we witness outrage in the Islamic world over cartoons, initially published in a Danish newspaper, that were viewed as intentional attacks on the prophet.

Peaceful and not-so-peaceful protests have occurred from Gaza to Indonesia. Boycotts have targeted companies based in Denmark and in other nations that reprinted the offensive caricatures.

We all, Muslims and people of other faiths, seem to be locked into a downward spiral of mutual mistrust and hostility based on self-perpetuating stereotypes.

As Muslims, we need to take a step back and ask ourselves, "What would the Prophet Muhammad do?"

Muslims are taught the tradition of the woman who would regularly throw trash on the prophet as he walked down a particular path. The prophet never responded in kind to the woman's abuse. Instead, when she one day failed to attack him, he went to her home to inquire about her condition.

In another tradition, the prophet was offered the opportunity to have God punish the people of a town near Mecca who refused the message of Islam and attacked him with stones. Again, the prophet did not choose to respond in kind to the abuse.

A companion of the prophet noted his forgiving disposition. He said: "I served the prophet for ten years, and he never said 'uf' (a word indicating impatience) to me and never blamed me by saying, 'Why did you do so or why didn't you do so?'" (Sahih Al-Bukhari)

Even when the prophet was in a position of power, he chose the path of kindness and reconciliation.

When he returned to Mecca after years of exile and personal attacks, he did not take revenge on the people of the city, but instead offered a general amnesty.

In the Quran, Islam's revealed text, God states: "When (the righteous) hear vain talk, they withdraw from it saying: 'Our deeds are for us and yours for you; peace be on to you. We do not desire the way of the ignorant'. . .O Prophet (Muhammad), you cannot give guidance to whom you wish, it is God Who gives guidance to whom He pleases, and He is quite aware of those who are guided." (28:55-56)

The Quran also says: "Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching, and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knows best who have strayed from His Path and who receive guidance." (16:125)

Another verse tells the prophet to "show forgiveness, speak for justice and avoid the ignorant." (7:199)

These are the examples that Muslims should follow as they express justifiable concern at the publication of the cartoons.

This unfortunate episode can be used as a learning opportunity for people of all faiths who sincerely wish to know more about Islam and Muslims. It can also be viewed as a "teaching moment" for Muslims who want to exemplify the prophet's teachings through the example of their good character and dignified behavior in the face of provocation and abuse.

As the Quran states: "It may well be that God will bring about love (and friendship) between you and those with whom you are now at odds." (60:7)

Would you please stop this babbling about freedom out speech "but with respect/responsability/sympathy".

As soon as you begin bending the freedom of speech, where do you stop? What is next? If you start to make "special" cases for some religion, because they are so thin-skinned that they can't take a joke, then you might as well NOT have free speech(like most arab countries).

Tidbits from a CNN article:

- "Whoever defames our prophet should be executed," said Ismail Hassan, 37

- "Bin Laden our beloved, Denmark must be blown up," protesters in Ramallah chanted.

- An imam at the Omari Mosque in Gaza City told 9,000 worshippers that those behind them should have their heads cut off.

- In the Indonesian capital Jakarta, more than 150 hardline Muslims stormed a high-rise building housing the Danish Embassy and tore down and burned the country's white and red flag.

and the list goes on and on and on http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/02/03/cartoon.wrap.friday.ap/index.html

Before this ridiculus mess started, i actually kind of believed that Islam had some sense, SOMEWHERE. But as the days go by, Islam just keeps proving me wrong.

There might be some craaazy, christian, jewish, buddist, wiccan or atheists that can get ticked off, but NOTHING beats muslims when they get on a roll.

Good going on starting to LOOK like the cartoons!!!(especially the one with the bomb in the turban, and a lit fuse...).

I bet every western, rightwing, racist nut is clapping his hands now, you just swung the whole west a couple of degrees right of the middle, i guess that calls for a congratulations.

Yes, and we have yet to se the muslim leaders appologise for the slaughter of the innocent people in Sudan !

since 1982 it is estimated that 2 MILION people have been killed, mainly african natives ...

do i need to say that 70% of sudan population are Muslims

I do think that an apollogy would be appropiate !

As there is so much burning of my flag:
I hope those Muslims know what they are descrating when they burn or walk on our flag the Dannebrog. Not that I really care as I don't really believe in it. But it is still a beautifull Myth. We got our Flag in 1219 at the Batle of Lyndanisse in Estonia. The Danish King Waldemar II (peace be upon him) was on a Crusade to Christianise the Estonians (yes there were other crusades than those in the Levant), The Danes were losing. But then the sky opened and in the golden ray of the sun shined on the red cloth of the blood of Christ with the white cross (the Cross of St John), The Danes by this devine intervention won the battle. And since then it has been out Flag. Dannebrog given by god to the Danish people must never be up at night. In Copenhagen you will set it go down at sunset. On Batteri Sextus in Copenhagen always saluted by canon at sunset and sun rise. So be wear Muhamedian (as we said in old Danish) you are insulting the flag of god. Actually I do not believe in all that. Old myth like the koran but nice stories for bed time reading. If you want to read more gom to at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dannebrog.
For many centuries this original Dannebrog (the shy fallen as we say) was keept in the Cathedral of Slesvig as a relic. It is now lost. I remember seing some relics from the profet in the palace of Topcapi in Constantinople not dissimilar (sorry Istanbul, justy teasing).

The Gay Dane

Having read the statements in especially saudi newspapers (Arab News), proclaiming "victory" over a western nation.

Hmmm, 1 Billion Muslims Vs. 5 Million Danes - You must feel very proud of Yourselves !

As I see it there are NO winners. Only the Rightwing Parties in Europe and the Extremist Muslim Groups ! But what about the rest of us......

I have quite a few muslim friends, and they can not relate to what is happening in the middle-east !

Makes You Think !

1849,
Of course you are right. specially when we know that the really problem in the futur is global warming. When the sea rises, muslims, Christians, Gays, Jews , transexuals, chineses, obese, handicaped, and so on are in deep trouble

IslamoHomochritianosexuomultiphobia
very sad
The gay dane

Haha, i must go rent "Life of Brian" some day !

Priest
...you have been found guilty by the elders of the town of
uttering the name of our Lord, and so as a blasphemer...

Women disguised as bearded men
Ooh...

Priest
...you are to be stoned to death!

Women disguised as bearded men
Aah!

Matthias
Look, I'd had a lovely supper, and all I said to my wife was
"That piece of halibut was good enough for Jehova!".
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Matthias
Look, I don't think it ought to be blasphemy, just saying
"Jehova"!

Women disguised as bearded men
Aiiih! He did!

Priest
You're only making it worse for yourself!

Matthias
Making it worse? How could it be worse? Jehova, Jehova, Jehova!

Women disguised as bearded men
Aiiih!

nuff said !

Peace

It may be a good idea for Muslims to react to this incident in the same manner Muhammad(PBUH) would have responded to an insult.

I believe that response is to return an evil act with an act of goodness. Goodness always conquers evil.

If we truly love and respect Prophet Muhammad(PBUH). Then we should try to follow his example of mercy and not the anger we may feel.

Jan,

I am not a bigot, racist facist or any other "ist" you want to label me..

I live in the middle east, in an islamic country and i travel all around the middle east so i can say i understand this culture.

You are right in saying that the governments of this region try to opress, BUT they do it in the name of Islam and the people accept.
This is the control i am talking about, in other nations we are free to discuss, debate and question our leaders..
In Saudi it's illegial to oppose the king (and a monarchy is forbidden in Islam) and his government. You are taught in this regime and in this way not to be free thinkers as you may start to question why.

Most women cover because they think it's religious, they are told so.. additionally the literacy rate of women (say over 30) is alarming it's so high it's amazing.
One of my friends mother cannot read or write, why because her government didn't allow her to goto school and be educated.
Education in these countries would force people to question their environment, well so long as they put more topics than Islam on the menu.

What I am sick of in this whole region is the Arab mentality that "I am holier than thou" and the hypocritical nature of the Muslims who pray then lie,drink and cheat - so if you really want to see Islam at it's best I extend an invitation for you to come down here and see how it really works.

Gary

This confrontation between fundamental Christians in the west and fundamental muslims in the east is inevitable. The fact that they are both holding onto the same religion and the same God is laughable. Isn't it strange that the theme is always the same; whether Cain and Able, Isaac and Ishmael, or Christ and Muhammad.
I believe, As a species, we all need to take stock of what we have and get rid of that which is no longer useful. RELIGION...!
Believe it or not, evidence suggest that the Universe is about 13 billion years old. Out of the 13 billion years, we've been here for about .0000000000000001 perscent of the time (figure it out..). If you want, you can believe that GOD put us here about 6000 years ago. However; there are no dinosaurs in the Bible...!

All these discussions about cartoons of someone who lived a couple of thousand years ago is truly stupid...!

To my understanding, the GOD in both these religions enjoy a good barbeque.. Although, no one has seen him eating it..!

So, let's take stock, clean out the garage, relax and enjoy the SUPER BOWL...

Go Seahawks....!

what will u feel if the muslim did a cartoon of jesus..and put a bomb on his head... this are sensitive issues that all the ppl around the world feels.., obviously ppl who are non-muslim must quite feel that it is stupid to fight against a caricature in a stupid newspaper. some of it might say that it is stupid to protest..but islam is true n pure..most of them practise their beliefs everyday single day of their lives. so i consider the cartoons is an insult to islam and not a freedom of speech.. in the 1st place why prophet muhammad.. why not saddam like u guys always joke around.

PS,

You don't really believe that do you? The part about Saddam and the WMD's? You know full well that the UN inspectors never found any proof of WMD's and were never given a chance to finish their work, in fact Hans Blix etc.. were vehemently against the war. Moreover, don't lump the world together and make it America. The only public that believed that there should have been a War and that said War was based on WMD's were the Americans. It's hard to blame them since the media in America is so pathetically biased and wrong, following the Government line without deviation. Most of the rest of the World saw the invasion of Iraq for what it was, Bush and his cronies (or is it the other way around?) wanted control over the second largest oil fields in the World, the invasion of Iraq gave them just what they were looking for. Look beyond the simpleton US media coverage.

Oh and one more thing PS, one man 'thumbs his nose' at us so we destroy the entire country and kill hundreds of thousands? Is that the way things are? The invasion of Iraq was illegal and the cost - in terms of human life and money - has and will be huge. Try as you will you cannot justify it in any other manner than to tell the truth, once the US does this the World will begin to heal with it.

I will, however, agree with you that the US did not print - out of respect and despite Free Speech - the pictures of Mohammed and this is something to be applauded.

Please do not misunderstand, I do not hate America, not at all - actually I studied in the US for some time - I just think that Americans have allowed themselves to be hoodwinked and drawn into an unjust War. I think that your politicians are squashing all the fantastic principals that America was built on and passed to so many nations over the years. I believe in democracy, free speech etc.. etc.. but I believe that Americans are 'losing their way' and it's a damned shame.

To the post regarding Iran, if the US invades Iran it will be beginning of hell on earth and will cost many thousands of lives, US and Iranian. Iran is, by no means, Iraq. God help us all and let us pray that it does not come to that. Do you really want to see thousands and thousands of US body bags? I - personally - do not, the US soldiers body bags and dead civilians we see currently in Iraq is quite enough for me. The soldiers die (most of whom are children) at the whim of stupid, greedy politicians and the local populace suffers incalculable pain. Call me a wimp but I've had enough of War, I've seen a few - first hand - and really cannot stomach anymore.

PS,

You know I really did not start writing on this blog to argue with you, or anyone else, over the US or its policies. I just started writing because I found the whole anti-Islamic ranting so biased and uneducated and I hoped to try and shed some light on the fact that we are not all the same and that we can only overcome our problems if we all work together and try to understand one another better. Unfortunately, however - being human - I got drawn into things.

The fact of the matter is that free speech is a fantastic right but it's a two way street, as much as people have the right to state one thing, others have the right to oppose what is said. The reaction of the few, very few, Muslims in terms of threats on life etc.. was disgraceful but some of the posts here directed against Islam and the generalizations made against all Muslims is also disgraceful.

I would prefer to discuss the matter rather than argue the matter.

Gary,

If you live in a Muslim country (I would presume the UAE since most of the hypocrisy you have mentioned emanates from the UAE and Saudi Arabia) then you - especially you - should know that not all Muslims are alike. If those that live among us cannot see this then we are all up sh!ts creek without a paddle! We do not all believe that we are 'holier than thou' and we are not all uneducated. I would venture to say that I - and most I know - have a far better education than you yourself and most living in the US or Europe. Try and be fair to those around you.

NH,

Yes, The UAE is hypocritical, but the entire point i am making is these people do pretend to be better than everyone else, trust me i SEE it every single day.

I know not all muslims are alike, but i do not see clerics calling for condemnation of suicude bombers hijacking Islam, or denying the hatred immams preach.

This is why the west has a negative view of Islam, anything bad done by the west is unforgivable, anything bad done by another muslim is defended by some Islamic verbage that has been twisted somewhere.

Some of the arab people are very educated, however, lots of arabian women are not, trust me this I also know..

I have actually had excellent debates with educated Muslim friends over here, while they say that the cartoons were wrong they tell me the Koran preaches forgivness, they also understand that DENMARK did not sanction this a few idiots did in a newspaper that is not run by the state.

Therefore, while i agree with some of your points and i am sure you disagree with mine, discussion in a civilised fashion in the resolution to this..

I bet if suicide bombers hit denmark Muslim clerics will say it was deserved etc, no-one will condemn it - will you ?

These people blowing themselves up and killing in the name of Allah, the evil people defacing Islam are I say the real culprits and the people Islam should be fighting not the "kaffur" western indifels because no-one cares because Allah only accepts Islam and so we're not going to your heaven anyway!

This is getting out of hand.

Now the danish embassy in Syria, has been burned down !

DK,

Something like this (and probably worse) was bound to happen...

Denmark should take an additional silent political stand and stop giving these countries monies..

The governments of these countries are not policing law they are not protecting soverign foreign land or anything, when groups of people burn or commit physical voilence the police should punish those..

Actually, now i think about it, an embassy is soverign soil.. the danish embassy is by international laws and rights danish soil, therefore anyone committing a crime upon it should be able to be tried according to Danish law! lets arrest these people

If i was Denmark I would stop giving the Danish peoples monies to Palestine and other Middle Eastern nations and use the monies to lower taxes for the proud (rightly so) danish citizens!

Until these governments and the so-called religious clerics condemn acts of violence in the name of Islam (don't i keep hearing Islam is peaceful and tolerant and forgiving) nations should not supply then with any financial or military support.

I wish i was in Tony Blairs shoes, i would have a thing or two to say :)

My god. Islam's ugly face. More Ugly by the day.

Even though there are plenty of decent muslims this is it's face

And again I want GAY Pride in Mekka.

The Gay Dane
,

Reading these posts saddens me that the Western world is so oblivious to the Islamic faith. Posters keep referring to how Islam doesn't condemn actions by a minute minority in the name of Islam as if Christians or Jews ever have done so. I agree with the Danish boycott, and the flag burning, because those are equally "free" forms of speech. What about the "freedom of speech" to show American soldiers' coffins arriving home at Dover Air Force base? Why did our government ban that?

The issue at hand is not religious parody, its perfectly okay to portray some generic Islamic nut with a Koran and a bomb, to express that point, but its illegal in their faith to depict the Prophet or God. Consider the Eastern Orthodox Church, they forbid depictions of Christ, even on the cross. Its extremely unsensitive, and try and remember the sensitivities given in respect for others. Its illegal to deny the Hollocaust or use Nazi imagery in Germany. Why? The answer is freaking obvious!

Try and come up with equally insulting images. Like one of Jesus the one who would turn the other cheek as a "pussy" or as him with jackboots and a Nazi helmet. It would be insulting, but tolerated by us only because we depict his image in our daily worship. To the poster that asked when the last time Christians killed in their name since the crusades, you must be a moron, look up the history of Christianity through today you idiot. Yeah we had our "Enlightenment", but until this century. NO responsible paper would be so crass as to post images this hurting about others. Imagine an Egyptian paper printing images of cartoon Jews outside the gates of Auschwitz, weeping as wheelbarrows full of their money were taken to the furnaces, which would be justified as an analogy for the Jewish people to be mainly devastated by their financial usurping as the status quo after the Shoah, and not the horrific events that actually transpired. Or Jesus in a robe sodomizing a line of bent over alter boys while saying "love your brother".

The problem truly is the misunderstanding of Islam, and the Western media's ignorance of it. As a former Catholic, I gave up all religion that is formalized because I think its insulting to have a view of God anyone on earth can explain to me. Instead I find God every day in nature. But for those equating Islam with extremist views, realize how devastating that point of view can be: Have you ever wondered why Christians were persecuted in the Roman empire as they spread throughout the urban centers? Because the government viewed them as hedonistic cannibals, who met in basement catacombs to "love one another" (think how its misconstrued), and "eat the flesh and drink the blood" of their Savior. This intolerance led to fear, and condemnation. The same is happening with the modern empire failing to understand a religion that we have been at odds with in the middle east for 1400 years. We must assuage the misunderstandings that are present, because after all, if only 1% of 1% of ALL Muslims are radical enough to be terrorist killers in the name their religion, thats 15Million people. Continue to perpetuate ignorance and ridicule their most sacred beliefs, and you will watch those images soar, as rightfully would be expected from any religious standpoint.

Hmm,

Lets see, the Danish embassy in Syria was attacked because some MUSLIMS sent messages saying they were burning Korans in Copenhagen.

This is 100% not the truth, this was a propaganda tactic to add fuel to the fire by DANISH MUSLIMS..

Now I can really see how everyone understands that this is supposedly a peaceful religion (sarcasm intended by the way)..

How can god-fearing muslims spread such blatent lies, I guess as a kaffur i'll be seeing these people in hell right!?

Danmark must now stay quiet and wait. But never, never say sorry. At home ethnic Danes (or what one calls it) must reach out to the moderat muslims. Before falling asleep I imagined our queen in some symbolic action giving a hand to the moderat and tolerant forces in society. Not to say sorry but to show that she is the queen of ALL danes. There is an old tradion in Europe of the monarch protecting minorities. I might be dreaming but such a healing action would be wonderfull.
The Gay Dane

Gary,

Its radicals on all sides of the equation. Now Danish right-wing extremists are pledging to accost any Muslims burning their flag. So what kind of free speech hypocracy is that? What because some 500 Muslims set the embassy on fire, you can't see the peace in the religion? Then again Gary is a Germanic name, and the Germanic people were the most phanatical relgiously of all time, and have an inherent intolerance to others beliefs. Thats why all Germans took pleasure in killing the Jews during the Holocaust. Do you see how RIDICULOUS generalizations are? The again, the Holocaust was perpetuated by a whole nation of Christians, and they turned a blind eye or participated instead of turning the other cheek. Nobody condemns them anymore, since they were only "following orders" and yet a bunch of radical Islamists who want this war to happen to extend the Crusades are portayed as representing even a minority view in Islam?

Hey John (derived from Hewbrew, so lets hope you're not a muslim)..

I don't condone burning of flags and i don't condone these cartoons, both are wrong, tit-for-tat solves nothing.
However IF one is against the law and the other is not (be that right or wrong - it's the law) then yes try these people , if it's not law then you cannot try these people.

I like the fact you liken me to Germanic people, you must be best friends of the germans they slaughtered millions, not for religion but for whatever reason, i don't really care their reasons. By the way do you know if all germans were christians ? what about the muslims killing muslims in Sudan i suppose thats ok right ? NO!

Everybody condems the holocaust nazi's you must be living in a F**KING dream world not to believe that, i don;t think anyone except the few nazi's that exist (that are as moronic as you), the Nazis tried to use the following orders excuse and were still tried

Do you condone the lies spread by muslims about koran burning or as a puppet do you believe it and burn flags and threaten people.

When do you see Islamic peace, during Rammadan i was in Saudi i listened to sermons where immams preached how it was right to kill kaffurs and take their money and land as they are non believers, how many immams preach this more than you probably know.. this was broadcast on Saudi TV for christs (PBUH) sake.. In a nation where people are uneducated and believe what they hear this is surely a good example of Islam right.

I don't make the generalisation, but i fully understand why people do, I even understand why you do, i do not care that you insult me cos i can shrug it off and move on, if you want to burn a british flag because of me feel free you're just proving everyone else right

Gary,
I was just trying to show how stupid generalizations are. If you're a Brit, then perhaps you don't see all the right-wing Christian crap that we have here constantly. We founded America for a place for a bunch of tight strung people to set up their religious rights, won our independence from Britain in the only good way a colony could, and now we are subjected to this current climate. As for me living in a "F**king dream world" to think the Holocaust is not continually denied throughout Europe, you need to wake up and see your own Backyard. The radical Muslims are using this as an attempt to have religious warfare once again. The Crusades NEVER ended, go rent Kingdom of Heaven to see the same arguments 1000 years ago. Its Europe thats going to start seeing radical Fundamentalists taking action now, and in the same way that you don't see what the big deal is, I'll shrug it off like the London bombings because at least its taking attention off the U.S

Pat,

The european monarchies have no power unlike islamic caliphs or whatever, they are of symbolic value of Europe.

Arabia used to be a great country once, with scholars and thinkers and great people, now it's just run as a dictatorship absoulte monarchy (which ISLAM does NOT permit)...

I think the proud danes are far more tolerant than you, and it may be all GAY people will burn, if that is so i'd rather burn with them that spend eternity in paradise with a idiotic fascist bigot like you

May God have swift vengeance on all those who oppose my views, and bring quick death to all the evil gays.

And Pat,
I don't feel like a loser at all. I have loads of friends Gay and straigth. All with exelent Jobs. Travel around world. probably as happy as one can be. And I don't believ in your religion so your threats are empty. Sorry to the other people one this blog but I have to answer to the insult.

The Gay Dane

Lol Pat Robertson, thats hilarious man. I don't think they know who Pat Robertson is though. Gary, Joergen, look him up. Whoever is posting under his name is illustrating a point about ignorance and tolerance. He's a Christian leader in the U.S. Look him up on the news, he's a nut.

Joergen,

Pat is a drivelling idiot, probably one who is too afraid to use *her* own name.

Some people are happy with themselves, Pat obviously isn't.

Pat, I think the phrase sticks and stones comes to mind...

I write these remarks before but some people seems that they did not get anything out of it. Here I repeated:
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Let me explain something. Most of the Westerners do not know it. Today, there are people who claim to be Muslims and they commit acts of terror. Great majority of these of "Muslims" belong to "Salafi" a.k.a. "Wahhabi" sect. This sect was established about 2-3 centuries ago in today's Saudi Arabia by a man named Abdul-Wahhab. He claimed that Islam had been degenerated, and needed to go back to its roots. Then he established this "extremist" sect. Wahhabism is the official state religion of S.Arabia. But not all S.Arabians are Wahhabi! However, they are enforced Wahhabism by the state.

Wahhabism is something far away from mainstream Islam (what Muhammad (pbuh) brought). When it was established, they even tried to demolish the tomb of the Prophet, clamining that it was idoltary! The tomb barely survived. Their path is an extreme path. They claim a lot of things permitted by Islam and as impermissable. Basically they made up a lot of things and gave Islam a bad name. They made Islam something it is not. They made Islam a religion which very hard to live and follow. That's the problem. This extremism causes such violent acts.

On the other hand, maybe 90-95% Muslims belong to the 4 main "schools of thought": Hanafi, Shafii, Maliki and Hanbali. Shia is considered the 5th one by some scholars, it is sometimes excluded. Shia is the official state religion of Iran.

These 4 schools of thought preach peace, justice, righteousness. They strongly oppose terrorism, violence, killing innocent people etc.

Another thing a lot of Westerners do not know is "Jihad". Jihad means "struggle". The major component of jihad is "self-struggle" and it requires Muslims to avoid alcohol, drugs, adultery / fornication (any kind of sexual activity outside wedlock), nudity, cheating, lying, back-biting, stealing, killing etc (Like 10 commandments). When one achieves these, he has a good chance to go to Paradise. Of course, these good deeds must be coupled with 5-times-a-day daily prayers, fasting during Ramadan, giving charity to the poor, helping each other, respecting family members, neighbors etc. And those who disregard these requirements have a good chance to go to Hell. But nobody's final destination is known. Even for prophets, Paradise is not guaranteed. Allah says, He is the most merciful and the most compassionate. He accepts people to Paradise with his compassion, mercy and forgivingness. That's why all Muslims try to do their best to win Paradise, because it is not guaranteed. Therefore we "self-struggle" every day.

The minor part of jihad is interpreted by many scholars (for today's World) as struggling in science, techology, medicine, economic prosperity, education and so on. Because Allah wants Muslims to make progress ever day towards being a better Ummah (nation).

Please consult Koran and Hadith for details, or ask some well-educated, open-minded scholar.
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I live at 87510 Commonwealth in Seattle. Been up here before?