Let's face it, the problem is that El Salvador is a US satellite. When the country tried to break out of the US orbit in the 1980s, it was punished with tens of thousands of innocent civilian deaths made in USA. The current obsequiousness is the consequence.

The illegal immigrant mess is costing us a hack of a lot of money. Over the weekend I saw the **conservative** cost figures - 1.6 TRILLION dollars a year for law enforcement, education, health care, and social services alone. That is what the 12 to 20 million illlegals cost us. To put that into perspective, 1 trillion dollars would provide a fully paid medical and dental insurance for every American citizen. Not socialized medical care, but a national HMO with medical, dental, prescription drug, and other services equivalent to what are received ny the member of Congress. And never mind the savings when Medicare, Medicaid, Med-Cal, and all of those government and private health care insurnces aren't needed any more becasue of this. Beyond this, consider that 90% of the prisoners being held on muder charges in Los Angeles are illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants kill more people than died in the 9-11 attacks every single year. 25% of the prisoners nationwifde in jails are illegal immigrants. Couple this with the fact that illegal immigrants cost the average amercian worker nearly 10% in salary reductions due to job competition. It is estimated that rounding up and deporting every illegal in the country would cost as much as 200 billion dollars. In light of the savings and security this would provide, it sounds downright cheap to me.

Now, roll in all of those "legal" workers here on L series visa's, most of whom receive no U.S. benefits from their U.S. employers. The two million or so of them and their families cost well over 100 billion dollars each and every year. This is simply outrageous given that most of these are here on L1 visa's, displacing the 20% or so of American citizen engineers who are unemployed.

All of this is a very expensive subsidy for cheap labor to supply corporations, construction business, assembly lines, and meat packing houses. It is so unfair and so outrageous that I cannot fathom how any politcian can justify it. Yet we have Hillary Clinton and George Bush cravenly courting the "Latino vote" as if American workers don't matter or count.

Please, this country doesn't spend 1.6 TRILLION in education, law enforcement, and so on for the american born population, much less for illigals. Your post is what is called propaganda.

The illegal aliens need to be deported. We should implant a tracking chip in all those we catch, kind of like biologists do with the animals they study, before any more are released. That should make the management of these aliens a bit easier. We can fund this program with a tax levied on these damn remitances.

Speaking of remitances- if these aliens are such a boon to our economy WHAT THE HELL is the deal with the remitances?! Why are they allowed to suck our money out of our economy and send it south of the border???

Let's send these amigos back where they belong.

Mr. Brooks comments reflects the anger of the American Middle Class over the in sourcing of legal and illegal immigrants to drive down wages for Citizen and legal aliens on track for citizenship. I would add that the anger felt is aimed at the Bush Administration and those in Congress who supported the outsourcing of jobs and industries, first to Latin America, and now, to China as the latest flavor of the month. Mr Brooks has more that adquately covered the problem of in sourcing.
However, in todays Washington Post, there is an article from AP on the support of workers in Mexico for the immigration issue in the U.S. There is also a related call to boycott American businsses in Mexico. They stand accused of driving down wages in Mexico through similar tactics employed in the U.S. Recently, in USA Today's money section there was an article on Brazil which has seen the outsourcing of jobs and industries to China, and the flood of cheaper Chinese products coming back to Brazil.
When NAFTA was first proposed, Ross Pirot said that "there will be a sucking sound of jobs and industries going South of the border. This proved to be the case, but now we see the sucking sound of jobs and industries going from the Western Hemishpere to China. Now the sucking sound is the blood of workers all over the world being reduced to wage slaves for Multinational big business.
"Competitiveness" means reducing all the workers of the world to the lowest wage level. "Free Trade" turns work into a jungle where only the fittest survive. At least, the fit may survive a little longer!
The only anwser is for the governments betraying their citizens to be voted out of office, or, if that option doesn't exist the use of other means.
However, after getting rid of the governments that support "Free Trade", bilateral trade and tariffs should be imposed to protect the jobs and industries that support these countries. You cannot control the world, but you can control your own country. We all need to, as Howard Dean said in a different context, to take our countries back.

Next time you have dinner at The Palm or some other fancy DC restaurant remember that a Salvadorean (legal or otherwise) probably prepared your meal. Next time you do some work on your home, realize that a Salvadorean is likely a part of the crew. Next time your trash gets picked up, a Salvaroean likely did the job you did not want to do. Whether you like it or not, DC depends on the hundreds of thousands of Salvadoreans in its community. These people work hard, and they send a significant percentage of what they make back to their families. Back home their families buy land, cars, invest in education for their children (and unfortunately once in a while squander it on large screen TVs).

In immigration reform there is the concept of push (latin america's lackluster economies pushing people to take the risk to come to the US ilegally) and pull (the number of jobs and potential income in the US "pulling" them up). The truth, I believe, is a bit of both.

What is generally overlooked in this debate is the role played by the U.S. in establishing conditions which force economically motivated migration. The author alludes to it in his reference to CAFTA, but hesitates to spell out how the elite in El Salvador, in this case, work trade agreements, currency conversion, etc., etc. to their advantage. You can be sure that these deals will greatly benefit those negotiating on the U.S. side. Left behind are millions of Salvadorans who have few options but to leave their country in order to provide for their families.

Okay, Frank. Let's see. The figures were lumped together, but we can pretty easily backtrack and figure most of them out. Anyone with a computer can use a search engine to find the publically available information.

The average cost per pupil is roughly $9,000 per year, a couple of thousand more for ESL students, but let's just stick with the $9,000. There are, by most estimates, between 8 million and 12 million children of illegals. At 9K each, that is somewhere between 72 and 108 billion dollars.

The social sevices figures come right from the states - it costs an average of $3,800 per person for social services. Lets assume most of those illegals are afraid to obtain food stamps, don't report domestic and child abuse, etc. and figure only 1/2 of that. So you get in the neightborhood of $2,000 per person - 24 to 40 billion dollars for social services.

Then, of course, 1/2 of the immigrant population has no health insurance of any kind. When they are sick, they use the emergency room or simply stick a doctor or other helth provider with the bill. The costs are well known, but uncorrelated (because no one wants to unset the Hispanic voter?). For Los Angeles, where one-quarter of the population is illegal, the costs for 2005 were $321.8 million dollars. For the entire state of California, the cost is just slightly over 8 billion dollars. Nationally, the cost is more than 20 times that...160 billion dollars last year. (Actually, I did a quick survery of the state cites and exceeeded that with Ohion, California, New Jersey, Florida, and Texas alone, and these states only account for about 1/3 of the illegal population, so the actual national costs I figure are somewhere are $400 billion.)

Then, of course, you've got prison costs. Prison costs are well know. It costs on average $92.05 per day to house a prisoner in an average security state prison. That works out to $33,598.25 per year. Now, as of 2001, there were 638,000 illegal incarcerated in prisons in the U.S. It is would be pretty easy to assume that that number has doubled today, but let's just say it increased by 50% --- $32 billion dollars and change.

Oh my, we're over half a trillion dollars already (we used the low end medical and crime figures) and we haven't finished half of our list...and we were figuring on the LOW side. The actual costs, mind you, are likely double what has been noted.

Illegals AND legal immigrants are a bad financial deal. They are quite literally stealing money from Amercian citizens, money that could be used to fund a national health program, a genuine energy savings program. The money wasted ontousands and thousands of ESL teachers and classrooms are monies that would be much better spent providing smaller classrooms and advanced training for Amercian children.

To Mike Brooks: thanks for the numbers, friend. I think we can all agree that it is important to quantify migration phenonomenon. For one thing, I find the studies that show illegal immigration holds down wages for low-skilled workers to be credible. Citing some sources (send links!) would help.

But I suggest you read the post of my other friend "Salvatrucho." The illegal immigration phenonomenon cannot solely be judged by adding up costs and numbers, can it? Illegal immigrants provide valuable services to American society everywhere and every day. The benefits should be quantified as well.

(BTW, for those who don't know, "Salvatrucho" is affectionate slang for a Salvadoran.)

As for you Mr. "burn the mexican flag," the deal with remittances is this: Iimmigrants, legal and illegal, make their money the old fashioned way: they work for it. And this being America, they pay taxes and get to do with the rest what they want. Your assumption that their wages are "our money" is hard for me to understand. Or maybe its your definition of "our" that I'm not fully grasping. Help me out here.

Finally, thank to Harriet for the timely point about how economic arrangements in El Salvador encourage illegal immigration. I was in El Salvador last week and experienced the country's poor infrastructure and weak public security firsthand. I heard that polls show 60-70 percent of people there would like to leave. It seems open to question whether a wall along the Rio Grande would, or could,change that number. But widely shared prosperity in El Salvador might.

What is important in all of this is to allow for controlled legal immigration. We do forget, sometimes, to realize just how desparate the straights for people that causes them to come here to begin with. But, we cannot absorb the huge numbers that are coming in right now. We tried the amnesty root, I believe under the Carter Administration, and it solved nothing. It simply led to more illegals. Another contributing factor has been the policy that flat out denies legal immigration to people from Mexico and Central America, and other policies that base immigration on education. We could find and deport the illegal immigrants we have today for a reasonable amount of money - the estimate is around $200 billion - and make it impossible for new illegals to enter this country. Then, we need to study our immigration polices and allow a set number of immigrants into this country on a regular basis, immigrants that can be absorbed in a rational manner, without regard to their economic or education stautus. No one would deny that immigrants have a valuable role to play in our society, but as with food, you can only handle so much at one time.

Hey Jefferson Morley,

You say "the deal with remittances is that immigrants, legal and illegal, earn their money the old fashioned way and, this being America, they get to do what they want with it."

My point is that the #1 rationale offered by immigrants to relax immigration law is that they help the economy. They do not help the US (our) economy when they take billions out of the country. Not to mention the fact that those here illegally have no right to be sending any money anywhere, much less even be here.

Furthermore, the world is overpopulated, and our country is no exception. Overpopulation may arguably be good (in the short term) for business, but it strains everything else, including the environment. I, for one, would rather have a lower standard of living (financially speaking) in order to preserve some green space. The country is full. Everyone who goes back to the line that America is a "nation of immigrants" is right, but the fact is that things change, and nothing lasts forever. Slavery ended, and immigration should end.

If Hispanics are just looking for a better life, which I'm sure they are, why can't they improve their own countries?

Finally, I'll voice something that all middle class whites know. If hispanics continue to invade this country and take it over demographically, the country will become like the other latin american countries: a faliure. If you feel that this is inflammatory and hateful speech, just really imagine an America that was majority hispanic. How would it be any different than today's latin american countries?

The truth is that immigrants take jobs that the American do not want to do !

Have you ever thought maybe the U.S. is stealing from El Salvador? Don't use fancy statistics to cover the real issue, please. Maybe if the United States didn't go into El Salvador and force their way of living with products from our companies (i.e. Coca Cola, Shell, etc.) they could have descent jobs with wages that would allow them to stay in their country.

Do you think Salvadorans like leaving their homes and their families in hope of possibly finding a minimum-wage job in a foreign country? Not to mention the hazardous, sometimes fatal journey from El Salvador to the United States.

I lived with an El Salvadoran family this past March. I have talked to these people and asked THEM the questions we all debate about. Have we forgotten that these are real people? They aren't numbers on a chart dipicting crimes. People shouldn't be viewed as a "financial deal". I don't see how statistics and numbers can be valued when the people themselves can tell you the stories of how the United States watched as the Death Squads brutally murdered these people's brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers right in front of their own families. If we are talking about what is fair, I think the least Americans can do is to respect these people's right to live a somewhat fulfilling life by granting them the chance to feed their children with their earned U.S. dollars.

You can't blame the oppressed for trying to survive.

We are a country made of immigrants. You wouldn't be here if it weren't for people just like these who came to the United States to try to make a living. Shame on anyone who doesn't recognize that.

It is incredible, most of you are living in a first world community and still do not understand what is really going on. Well, maybe I should not be surprised. Here is a tip: The USA foreign economy policy for Latin American countries has been very unfair and lacks a lot of social components to the point all these commercial agreemments become the source of more illegal inmigration to your nation. You must all know how the USA demands these third world countries to open their markets or they will no longer make business with the USA. Come on, you cannot be so blind to keep thinking this will not affect you negatively sometime in the future. On the other hand, Your country has supported governments that have not been outstanding regarding honesty. These corrupted governments generate more illegal inmigration so they can send remittances back home and when the illegal inmmigrant´s relatives receive their money it is spent in a pizza hut restaurant or in a burguer king fast food restaurant. It is time to think about the kind of president and congress people you need to prevent this. Finally, you must remember that the USA is a country of immigrants.

Mr. btmf: Let me just focus on one of your comments because maybe it illuminates something important in this debate.

Why do you say that Hispanics are "invading" this country? Invaders come with hostile intent. Maybe you feel that from the immigrants you know. In my experience, immigrants come here because life in their country was unbearable and/or dangerous. That's why my wife came from El Salvador. She wasn't "invading." She was fleeing a civil war in which a U.S. backed government and its military death squads was killing civilians nine times as frequently as the communist insurgents. (The numbers come from the report of the U.N. Truth Commission and are not subject to serious dispute, though of course, the politics of the war are).

My wife didn't "invade" this country. She got asylum and became a U.S. citizen. Hundreds of thousands of Salvadorans came for the same reason.

So, no I don't agree that the country will fail if Hispanics "take over." People said the same thing forty years ago when black people asked for the right to vote. People said, look at "those people." They're poor, they're uneducated. If they can vote, they'll take over and the country will fail Hasn't happened, has it?

No, it hasn't happened because democracy accompanied by equal economic opportunity is a powerful proposition. Self-rule is in your self-interest. If and when, countries like El Salvador can establish democracy and economic opportunity then the illegal immigration that you find so threatening will be cut off at the source. In a global economy, they're may not be any other answer.

"burn the mexican flag", you sound like an old fashioned racist. What of the millions of American's, legal Americans, who are here from Mexico or Central America or China or India or Japan or Scotland or Germany or Sweden and take some pride in their ancestoral roots? The illegal problem has been caused by politician's who propose harebrained amnesty schemes or try to outdo each other in placating these groups. And a real problem is our immigration policy in general. Currently, you have Hillary Clinton and George Bush playing hard to the same crowd and I find it hard to belive that many American's of Latin descent are falling for their rubbish. I also find it hard to fathom that we do not allow for legal immigration from Mexico whatsoever. That, of course, is in tact admission that the illegal immigration from there is overwhelming and is also almost a promise that "someday we will grant you amnesty" to those millions of illegals that come here.

You also are buying into the notion that these illegal are paying taxes. Many, perhaps even most, simply do not. In Oregon, where I live, the construction trades have been largely taken over by illegals, most are paid under the table at around $10 an hour. They pay no federal nor state income taxes and, because Oregon has no sales tax, they pay no sales taxes either. Look, too, at the headlines on MSNBC about the cranes that are still because the illegals who operated them are involved in the protests today. A crane operator, and I have a brother in law who is one, makes more than $20 an hour. Those illegals are taking a job from an American, literally stealing food from their children's mouths. I wonder how much those illegals, working as crane operators are making and how much they depress the salaries for Amercian's who would work those jobs and actually pay taxes? **THAT** and every other job that is not being done today ought to give pause to you and make the headlines tomorrow in the Post and every other newspaper in this country".....millions of jobs, good living wage jobs, were proven to have been taken by illegals out on strike yesterday....".

Too, some LEGAL immigrants are an enormous problem. Take, for example, the 2 to 3 million Indian workers here on L1 visa's used by the high tech industry. These workers are hired and paid by their Indian subsidiary, not in the U.S. So, their salaries are at the Indian rate. They are housed and fed by the American host company in converted blocks of apartment or hotel or residential inns (the Lakes, in Beaverton is one good example). These guest workers work as virtual slaves for almost nothing; 10, 12 hour days 6 days a week are common work schedules. Every cent they make stays in India to feed their family. If they get sick, they have no medical insurance and so are shipped off to an emergency room. Eventually, after 6 months or so, the families of these engineers are brought and most stay. The spouse usually takes an under the table job as a clerk or cleaner so they can afford a heap apartment. Their children go to public schools. All of this costs us in Oregon several hundrd million dollars each year and these workers can stay here for years (I believe it is 6 or 8 years). At the same time, 20% of our own engineers are unemployed.

And, look also to our public colleges and universities. Go to a science or engineering college. The enrollment of foreign students are in excess of 50%. Why? It certainly isn't becasue there aren't enough qualified Amercian students for those positions because thousands of American students, fully qualified American students, are turned down for those slots. Indeed, every single position could be occupied by an Amercian citizen. The reason for this disgrace is simply because non-resident students pay a tuitioon rate that is four times what a resident pays. It is a cheap and easy way for colleges to make money.

The fact is, illegal immigration and much legal immigration are nothing more than subsized programs to provide cheap labor for business and jobs and money for government. It is ordinary working men and women who bear the weight of all of this. SO, racism is out of place, just as national origin is out of place. It is not a conservative or liberal issue. It is simply about right and wrong and what is about what is best for this country and it's future.

Morley, you're killing me. Hispanics ARE invading this country because they're entering illegally. (Not all invasions take place on Omaha beach.) Not only that, but they're actively encouraged to do so by their governments. Their governments are able to avoid reform because discontents can simply leave.

"Racist," Mike? That's a pretty easy way to dismiss someone whose views may not be politically correct. I don't know... if it makes me an "old fashioned racist" to describe latin american countries as failures, then I guess I'm a racist. But can you honestly see an America that has a majority hispanic population faring any differently than today's majority hispanic nations?

"burn..." You obviously haven't been paying attention. There is no way most Hispanics can enter this country legally. Our immigration policy has zero as the allowable quota of immigrants from Mexico. Same for most other Central and South American countries.

This, of course, is a result of our earlier (and repeated) amnesty programs. It is an admission and assumption that millions of these people will illegally immmigrate here and we will grant most of that batch amnesty and repeat the whole mess again in 20 years or so.

The solution is quite obvious and will be a bit painful: actively seak out and deport EVERY illegal immigrant no matter the cost AND obtain complete and total control of our borders, making it as humanly impossible for illegals to enter this country as we can. Then, we MUST change our immigration policy to permit a set number of appicants from Mexico and other countries to legally enter this country. That number ought to be as large as possible, but no larger than we can sucessfully absorb and fully integrate AND those applicants need to come from all sections of their society, not just the rich and educated. We need a steady supply of honest hard working men and women and their children, no matter if they are a construction worker or a scientist. We just need them in a controlled and rational fashion, free from politics and most of all free from politician's.

Mike, you must have misread my post. I'm aware that most of the latin american immigration is illegal. And I agree with you that we need to deport the illegal aliens and regain command of our borders.

I question, however, the notion that we need to import any more people into this country. Do people think all Americans have somehow graduated above unskilled or low-skilled work? That's nonsense. The immigrants are a net drain on our economy, and our nation.

"burn..." Any and all immigrants are a drain on our economy at first. It costs money and resources and time to integrate them. Sometimes we are not successful until the next generation of native born Amercian's comes from that group. Teh, those immigrants provide a vigor, a new way of looking at the world, a rebirth of the Amercian dream that is worth everything of the original cost and more.

Again, where we agree is that we have gone way too far in accepting even legal immigrants, much less illegal immigrants. On CNN I just read an article about jobs some illegals have taken from Amercian's. In this case they cited a story about meat packers. In 1980 the average salary for a meat packer was $10 an hour. Today it is $9 an hour and more than 50% of the meat packers are illegal workers. Round them up, deport them, get our country and our economy under control. Make it clear to the politcian's that, and I believe this is the case, conservtives like you and liberals like me will not tolerate any amnesty program whatsoever, will vote AGAINST any politician or party that proposes or grants amnesty to illegals and that we regard this as *the* TOP issue.

misprint. The CNN article said that the average salary of a meat packer was $18 an hour in 1980 and that it is hafl that, about $9 an hour today.

who cares about misreading your point.

really. do you realize if you stereotype the "latinos" and "hispanics" shoving "them" out of "our" land, one day this hate and ignorance will just catch up to you.

This isn't about the immigrants stealing jobs. Undocumented workers many times get paid under minimum wage and are taken advantage of. You don't see undocumented workers laboring at white collar jobs or CEOs of Microsoft. These people are trying to do what they can to get by.

If you want to burn the Mexican flag that is your choice but do not punish those whose only crime is trying to make a better life for their family by working along side every other man women and child in this country.

They are working for freedom from oppression just like the early pilgrims did when we came to this land and "immigrated", kicking out the native americans.

These men and women are doing everything they can to survive, paying taxes, working the jobs you don't want for the money that doesn't suit your needs, all to give a little back to their family and their home.

And you cannot say they aren't giving something back. People in El Salvador are giving up lives fighting next to United States soldiers in Iraq. Cleaning up the mess we made with yet another war.

If they aren't true Americans, who are?

Fighting over seas, working here in our own homeland and in theirs... so that you can buy a big mac for under a dollar and so that when you sit at home with your wife and kids you can feel that you are in the land of the free.

Emily, your post was so utterly cliched and schmaltzy that it was almost genius. As in "so bad it's good."

As for your sense that the "only crime is trying to make a better life for their family by working along side every other man women and child in this country," I say "wrong." Their crime is illegal entry. Trespassing in our country.

As for paying taxes, how many of these "undocumented workers" (to use big media's preferred term) working construction are filing 1040s? I wouldn't think the figure would be too high. They're not paying income tax, they're not paying property taxes. They're paying sales tax, okay? Sales tax doesn't cover what they use in services. It doesn't even come close.

As for El Salvador bailing us out in Iraq... they coughed up a token force of under 400 soldiers. It looks like two have died. El Salvador has also contributed thousands of soldiers to the streets of America in the form of an army known as MS-13. Thanks El Salvador! They're probably safer in Iraq than they were in their own hellhole country anyway.

The bottom line is that we cannot and must not absorb all the tired and poor huddled masses of the world, despite what Emma L wanted. We have helped a hell of a lot of people, but we have a limit. America can not bail out the world. The third world countries need to improve themselves.

i recently arrived home from el salvador. In my opinion, what some people fail to realize is that the wall and the laws will not stop the immigrants. They're coming because they have no other choice. The family I stayed with in El Salvador had 4 sons in the U.S. How else are they supposed to survive? What happened to the Statue of Liberty? "Give me your weak, your tired, your poor..." The immigrants and El Salvadorians are people who need to live. All the laws will do is make that more difficult for them.

Salvatrucho,
i thought your comment about the big screen TV was great. apparently were all more similar than we realize.

According to the Mexican Ambassador in Washington, DC, there are about a million American citizens in Mexico, and thousands of them are illegal aliens.

I don't think El Salvador has this problem.

Del

I'm all for honest hardworking immigrants, sympathize with their plights, etc. However, is it the job of the US people to solve every other country's problems? Vincente Fox doesn't want the undesirables(illegals) back in his country. He just wants them to send back the money. I think all the illegals should march righ on back to Mexican and demand Mexico and Fox to reform.

The USA and its nearby satellite states constitute ONE labor market. Calling people "legal" and "illegal" has nothing to do with it. If the US government didn't want workers to migrate then they should not have killed a several hundred thousand Central Americans in three countries in the 1980s in order to keep wages down and maintain unequal terms of trade. The poster who states Latin American countries are failures fails to understand, probably does not want to understand, and may be incapable of understanding the effects of over a century of satellite status and dozens of US invasions and occupations to prevent democratic economic development. Every poster on this page and every rational person would do whatever it took to live a decent life and to provide a better life for their children in this world cruelly and intentionally divided into rich and poor.

"fix their own country"? easier said than done. we screwed it up for them. besides how will their families be fed while trying to "fix their own country".

People's glib comments about problems that should be fixed in Central America and elsewhere are utterly clueless about the devastation of El Salvador and Nicaragua by the United States under Ronald Reagan. Unfortunately people here know little and care less about the criminal activities of our government in the many countries that it invades overtly and covertly every decade.

Most of the "actual Americans" were wiped out. The last massacre was at Wounded Knee in 1890.

Why discriminate? Burn all flags.

imagine no borders

mr burn the mexican flag:
could you please give an example of when the U.S. helped pull these countries out of the muck? because i'm pretty sure that sending weapons to el salvadodr so that they can kill their own people didnt do much good (and this is just one example). a valid response would be great.

Here's a pretty lame joke I just thought up that I'll leave you with:

>Why do Mexicans only buy their books at Barnes & Noble?

>Because they don't respect Borders!

I figure the comedy level is at least as high as a Bazooka Joe comic. Goodnight, Washingtonpost.com readers.

Ha! And the bourgeoisie said they loved globalization so much... but just for capital, not for workers. Now the racists are all fired up to start burning flags (though they would probably prefer to lynch some foreigners)and the capitalists don't know what to do because they need their low cost labor in order to pay themselves multimillion dollar dollar salaries. But that's a problem for the majority of working Americans. Let the employers and the racists who share the Republican Party work it out for themselves.

Kathy,
How will their families be fed while trying to "fix their own country"? Try it. The Nepalese have done so in the recent days. It takes some sacrifice and bloodshed, but many other people have prevailed to oust their corrupt government and royalties. The US screwed it up? What are you another blame-everything-on-the-US liberal? Do you blame what's going on in Darfur on the US too? Was the US responsible for the Rwanda, Armenian, Jew genocides? I want to see that truly racist Vicente Fox getting ousted and replaced with L.A.'s mayor Villagrosa. He will lead his people back home.

The Salvadorans, Guatemalans, and Nicaraguans tried to do something very similar to what the Nepalese are doing. Result: hundreds of thousands of dead MADE IN USA. "Blame the USA liberals" is very easy to say. Check your facts. These deaths of innocent poor workers and their families are not a joke or a slogan. They are facts.

People here have no idea. The United States is the only country to ever be condemned of state-supported terrorism by the International Court of Justice at the Hague. Where? Central America. When? Just twenty years ago.

Please don't commit these kinds of crimes and then complain about the economic refugees you create.

The United States provided the El Salvadorian government with weapons, money, and training to torture, murder, and oppresss its own people who were trying to fix their own government. Yes, there was oppression in El Salvador before we became involved: we just attempted to help the success of the opression. This was the last time the people of El Salvador tried to fix their own country. For some reason the U.S. felt compelled to defeat that effort. All of this has led to the extreme poverty that is forcing people out of their own country into ours in order to keep their families living.

I am glad to see that so many people are linking horrible US foreign policy machinations with the influx of immigrants from Central America. We burned down their house so now they and their kids want to come live with us. It is, of course, a job that the media refuses to do.

So, now we need to ask about the current madness:

What are you going to do when bush & co drop nuclear bombs on Tehran?

If it weren't so horrible it would be funny to see the resentment felt by those who have so much toward those who have nothing at all.

If you've failed, then try again and again until justice prevails. Don't abandon ship and let the corrupt governments continue to exist. Yes, continue to blame the US for your miseries, but try again I say. The recent Darfur genocide is a fact too. So were the genocides that killed in the millions. If the US is so evil and helped kill so many people, then why do illegals head to the killer?

Hello? The world is unjustly and intentionally divided between rich and poor. Any human being or other mammal condemned to misery would gladly violate a "border" in order to improve his or her possibilities for decent survival. Do people who don't understand this have ANY conception of the poverty that the United States enforces in Latin America? Apparently none. Zip. Zilch.

Use head? Puedes hablar ingles mas correctamente? Keep trying again. One day, your people too can live in prosperity and have a country of your own and not be labeled an illegal. Fight for justice. Don't run.

"If you've failed, then try again and again until justice prevails."

PLEASE study the history of US interventionism in favor of dictatorship and kleptocracy in Latin America. Just study and reflect. How many times have you gone to bed hungry?

"Keep trying again."

This sentence is ungrammatical since it combines the past continuous, a past tense with imperfective aspect, with an iterative adverbial that is incompatible with that imperfective. As for the Spanish, it should have started with an inverted interrogative '¿' and "mas" without the accent is a largely archaic word meaning "but." I'm sure that you meant to say "más." Please use head.

Venezuela's Chavez and Bolivia's Morales has fought for their people and is putting up a good fight against the evil USA empire. Keep trying! A particular US administration was involved in your blame for the three countries, not the oridinary American person. Keep fighting! Chipote, don't blame the US. Go and fight for your people. I would fight for bread to feed my people, than abadoning them.

Hello? It's "Cipote" not "Chipote." I was born in the United States in 1950 to two citizens of the United States. and have lived here all my life. Is that American enough for you?

Mark K- Yes, i know what is going on in Darfur. Yes, i've written to many many politicians about the conflict. but no, i have no idea why you keep bringing this up. maybe you are trying to say you support the Sudanese people? so my question for you is, would you welcome these refugees if they were to escape from the genocide and come to the United States?

It's not worth responding to know-nothings.

Maybe its just ironic but the immigrants that we are talking about are people. Actual human beings with families, a working body, and lives of their own, crazy isn't it!? In no way would anyone want to leave their home land, upset their families, who they may never see again, and go into a culture that they may know nothing about. But, at times, people are left with no other option.

As Americans we're breed to believe that our country is the best in the world and that all other countries should look to us as the ideal place to live. We spit that logic to every nation and force feed it to them until they admit that America is superior. Why then, do we get upset when the poorest people who have no hope in their own countries decide to take that belief into practice and come to the States?

I just returned from El Salvador, a country full of incredible hospitality, and I talked to people about immigration. They have no other option. The fact that they pay thousands of dollars alone simply to try to get across the border should be respected enough. When will people open their eyes and see that in no way are immigrants trying to "take our jobs," but instead simply trying to survive and provide for their family?

And if so many Americans suppossedly want immigrants to stay in their own countries then putting up a wall isn't doing any good. It only puts our country more in debt and hurts our own environment. What people need are jobs, and no not sweatshops, real jobs. If we want to make this a better situation for everyone, and get to the root of the issue, then we, as Americans who sold weapons to the death squads and trained soldiers at the School of the Americas, have an obligation to help El Salvador get going. We feed Tony Saca enough propaganda, maybe it's time we be democratic and help the people who need it most. And anyone who says that America doesn't have an influence in El Salvador should look at how big the U.S. Embassy is there compared to every other building.

And however cliche anything may sound, if it gets things going and makes progress, why does it matter? America IS a nation of immigrants. We all have the same rights of equality and justice. If people are truly upset that Salvadorians are blackmailed into working less then minimum wage jobs in the industries that no one really dreams about working in, I feel sorry for you. We should be fighting to get immigrants better rights, instead of working to deport them.

Start realizing that America isn't the only country out there, and it certainly isn't the best. Otherwise we're gonna have a lot more Bush family members as presidents because too many of our citizens are ignorant and unsympathetic to starving people with one last gleam of hope. Immigrants belong in America, and it is our duty to keep them here, documented or not.

I think what the problem here is that neither side really understands the other, but then that is the problem with the average americans: speaking with ignorance.

First off, US involvement in EL Salvador goes back to the monroe Doctrine, so its not a new thing. We as a nation decided to stick our nose in their business and continue to do so to this day.

Second, if someone works hard and chooses to send their money home to help their family, why is that anyone's business anymore than if someone from DC spends their money on National tickets?

Third, instead of trying to figure out what to do with people who come here looking for a chance a better life, shouldnt we be focusing on how to deal with bigger problems, like crime and welfare and teenage pregnancy and drugs? Or will we continue to be distracted like the average Romans were when they were given the gladiator games, which distracted them from the fact that their empire was collapsing at an alarming rate?

Instead of fighting over who should be here and why and how, why not focus on making america a better nation for all of us?

Good for Evo Morales. If more Latin American leaders would do as he has done and nationalize the oil, gas and other natural resource wealth now being plundered by American multinationals, more of the wealth that now flows into U.S. fatcats' hands would stay where it belongs, and Latin American poverty would be less of a problem to begin with.

I am afraid, as a U.S. Citizen, that if we keep drafting policies that view other people differenly than what USA used to be, we might be giving Latin American's leaders a right cause to move these countries against our humanitarian and historical values. Please, read the following article
politicalhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/01/AR2006050100583.html?sub=AR

Obviously-the fix is in, hardly a media word against wholesale immigration. They do jobs Americans don't want, BS- they now do drywall, sawmills, oyster shucking, landscaping, slaughterhouse, you name it. All jobs gladly done by native Americans, White and Black, for years and gladly done now if they had a chance.

A nation of immigrants, my a**, Blacks, being hurt most by immigration were brought here in chains and forced to work for nothing.

Recent immigrants are now even displacing longer time immigrants.

Monte Haun
mchaun@hotmail.com

Check out this funny caption:
http://www.clevercaption.com/3178.html

It is interesting because it makes us ask:
- Why were we not forced to learn their (native american)languages?
- Do we owe them taxes for the help they offered us? Why are we more likely to give freely to causes in other countries than help the illegals here by offering government services?
- Should we be flying their flag?
- Is it right that we took their land away and now call it ours, only to kick out illegal immigrants that are probably closer to the land's heritage than us white folks?

Burn the mexican flag?
You remind me of those guys in the middle east who burn the american flag to a pulp.
However, are you saying that your better than the palestinian people or so call "terrorist". By Burning the Mexican flag.
I see no difference.
What happened to Central America 2 decades ago is happening to Iraq and soon to be Iran.
Another mess that has to be cleaned up.
I wonder how will it be when china is the only SUPERPOWER.

I love the american people racist or not.

Good Night.

To go back to burn and others comments regarding remitances. My dear friends the concept of a "finite amount of wealth" went out of vogue around the 1800s.

A dollar earned by a Salvadorean in DC is sent (probably by Western Union - thus benefiting US economy) back to El Salvador where it is likely to be spent buying brands such as Coca-Colas, Frito-Lay, Chrysler, or the occasional Samsung or LG TV, or heck even a house. Yes remesas make up 17% of El Salvador's GDP. But from a trade balance perspective a lot of it comes straight back to El Salvador's main trading partner, the US. So much for your "its our money arguments."

As to the policies that the US implemented that got us here: I am more concerned in the policies being implementED. A wall? Priests having to confirm that all of their parishoners are legal? Take the money spent on building the wall, spend it smartly in helping to create a middle class in Mexico and Central America and make that the driver to slow down the numbers flowing through.

I'd just like to say to people like BTMF, please take a trip to a developing country (like El Salvador) before you start spewing racist comments. I just returned from a mission trip to El Salvador in March and had my perspective on this issue of immigration completely changed. If you saw the conditions some of these people live in, you would understand why they would risk life and death to come to our country. These are hard-working people that want what is best for their families. What makes them any different than you? Don't you want the same for your family?

We Americans are so quick to judge people who are different. We sit in our fancy homes and look down our nose at people, all the while not realizing that it could very well have been us living in a developing country, barely making a dollar a day in wages.

So, please, before anyone looks down at the people trying to come here, go visit their country. Step out of your comfort zone and experience another culture. It will change you. Trust me. It changed me.

Jon, I commend you for your opinion. I am a US citizen born in El Salvador who is not going any where regardless of your wishes to send me back. I did not choose to come to this country, you (US Government) force me to come here. I have learned to love this country and consider it my own, but do not forget that if it wasn't for the BILLIONS of dollars and it's support for a war that we did not wanted between 1979 and 1992 hundreds of thousands of us (salvadoreans) wouldn't be here. Expect the next wave of new legal and illegal immigrants from Iraq and Afganistan arriving soon, because it may take them years to get here,but they will get here. Who is forcing these people to come here. Guess who??? I always though that American (I mean those who immigrated earlier) were smarter, but reading some of your comments, it does not look that way. Visit a third world country and you will appreciate these people more.

My comments are from a slightly different perspective. Latin American countries are not the only places in the world where people live in horrifying living conditions and aspire to a better life. There are millions in Africa and Asia who suffer under corruption, mismanagement of resources and persecution, conditions that are as bad, if not worse, than those in Latin American countries. As a legal Pakistani immigrant I would love to see U.S borders controlled and illegal Hispanic immigration stemmed (illegal immigration from other parts of the world is much smaller and would end up being regulated in the process as well) because it takes that opportunity to live the American Dream away from millions in the rest of the world. This is not supposed to be the United States of Whites, Blacks and Hispanics only.

To an extent I agree with Mike Brooks's suggestions. I think the issue of the illegal immigrants already in the U.S should be put on the back burner and the focus should move to funding border security and finding a way to drastically reduce the flow of illegal immigrants. I think once we have a handle on that, positions on both sides of the debate might soften a little. Even some sort of amnesty or worker program would not seem as bad because the chance of it happening again, in another ten or twenty years, would be unlikely due to better border security measures.

I keep reading about how the U.S is responsible for the economic mess in Latin American countries, and perhaps it is my ignorance about NAFTA or whatever other trade agreements exist between the U.S and Latin American countries, but how is the U.S responsible for the social and economic conditions that exist there? Free trade? China and India have dealt with the same set of rules, and even though they still have serious social issues to deal with they have turned themselves into economic success stories.

The country of my origin, Pakistan, continues to struggle but the only people I see fit to blame are the Pakistanis themselves. We continue to elect leadership that is Feudal and corrupt (and makes such a mess that the Military feels obliged to step in and make a bigger mess) and refuse to reform because of our archaic culture and traditions. In the recent past the leadership of both India and Pakistan has recognized that Legal immigration has turned into a tremendous brain drain. India with its massive population has suffered less but in Pakistan we have a critical shortage of qualified teachers, professors, physicians and scientists because they are all in the West. In order to attract these people back home, the governments have started offering high salaries, academic freedom and research grants.

My point is that nations have to assess their problems, figure out solutions and work towards those goals instead of blaming everyone else around them. Pakistan suffered under British colonialism and then from the Russian invasion of Afghanistan (the birth of militant Islam and the world's biggest arms black market) but that does not necessarily mean that they owe us anything. What happened is history. We should remember it, learn from it, move on, and put our house back in order, ourselves.

I was born in San Miguel, El Salvador in 1974 in a home with no electricity, running water, and in extreme poverty sometimes eating tortilla with salt. I came to this country illegally from El Salvador in 1985. In 1998, I graduated from a local university with a degree in Business Administration. By 2004, I was a Director of International Operations at one of the largest entertainment companies in Burbank, CA. In 2007, with the help of other Salvadoran Americans, I plan on opening the first four star resort in the eastern part of El Salvador and provide employees with benefits and the most competive salary in the entire country.

Our country is so beautiful, our people have had to struggle in the U.S.,Australia, Italy, Canada, and all other countries that took us in legally or illegally in the last 30 years. Let's take back the knowledge that we have learned and help our people build a future in El Salvador. With more than 25% of the population living abroad, 16% of the GDP...our political clout is undeniable.

We have two worlds in El Salvador. The world for the rich and the world for the poor. When I return to El Salvador, I remember what the poor world is like. This is something that the rich cannot understand. If we are to stop people coming here, we must do something to help our poor be able to dream.

Hugo from Irvine, CA and Los Angeles, CA
hugo.hernandez@espinoresort.com

Great post, Hugo. Thanks for sharing.

Y buen suerte.

I commend Zain in his perspective of the right and wrong of illegal immigration. It is not the fault of the USA that latin american and other countries of the world have not been able to progress. It is instead, the fault of the people of these countries. They profess that they are just trying to survive and provide for their families. Why don't you try a little "American Ingenuity", and start a business in your own country. Is it so hard that you can't grow bananas, or peaches, or corn, or anything else for that matter? When the US was a young country, we were a farming society. The farmer (then and now) didn't have money, but they fed their families by growing the food they need, and traded or sold the extra for that which they could not grow. Latin american countries, are even better off than the first american farmers who only had a 4 or 5 month growing season. You in central and the tropical south american areas can grow food all year 'round. Do you try to feed your family like that? No, you break the laws of my country and justify your illegality by saying we owe you. I owe you nothing. You owe me. I can not afford health insurance, or even a wife and family. This is because I/We the U.S. citizen must pay our hard earned taxes to subsidize you the law breaker. I have to send your kid to school. I have to pay extra to teach your kid to speak english. I have to pay more so you can read government literature in your "special" language. I can not afford to get married and have kids, because you, the illegal, take a job that pays a fraction of the wages demanded by a legal immigrant and/or citizen of this great country. You drive the wages down, you don't pay taxes no matter what you claim...because if you did you wouldn't work for the slave wages you do work for in this country. I am tired of you illegal aliens (you are not immigrants) breaking my laws, and demanding rights. YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS. YOU BROKE THE LAW TO GET HERE. I THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE TO PAY THE PRICE. IF I BREAK THE LAW I WILL BE PUNNISHED. YOU WANT TO GET AMNESTY. YOU ARE ARROGANT AND DO NOT DESERVE TO BE IN MY COUNTRY. I praise the legal immigrant who does the right thing and is willing to wait to enter this country and become a citizen, to learn our customs and language, not to set up their own little country and then annex it back to Mexico as La Raza wants to do. My mother is an immigrant. She came here legally. What makes you better, or more deserving, than the millions upon millions of people who obey our laws and wait to become citizens of this great nation. I want to arrest and fine each and every employer that hires one of you, and make sure you can not depress my (or any other american's) wages ever again. I want to make sure you have no more incentive to stay here. I want you to leave, and if you want to come back the legal route, then I will welcome you. Otherwise, you illegal aliens are criminals that hurt every law abiding citizen and LEGAL immigrant in the past, present, and future. Call me a bigot, or racist, or what ever you like, but know that if an american was illegally in your home country, we would probably be arrested, fined, imprisoned, and then deported back to the US. Why should we treat you the law breaker any different than your country would treat us?

I do not get the anger toward illegal immigrants. Most of them are here to work -- and they do the jobs most Americans don't want to do but we want done -- care for our children, our homes and yards, build houses, pick the fruit and process the food.

If these folks were admitted into the "above ground economy" they will pay for their share of taxes. If they can get jobs easier there will be fewer in committing crimes.

What we need is an immigration policy that reflects the reality on the ground, not our prejudice and fears.

If you look at the map of the united states and mexico, you will find that most of the problem you call the illegal immigration is in those border states. Hundred or so years ago this land belonged to Mexico. They are only coming home. You are the illegals. The solution is so simple. Give them their land back. Problem Solved. Going back home is all the rage. Jews returned to theirs after 4000 years.

Amrit:

"Hundred or so years ago this land belonged to Mexico. They are only coming home."

And what of the people who inhabited the land before Mexico was in existence? This emotional argument about a historic right to a geographic section of the Earth has to stop. There was an excellent article in the National Geographic recently that talked about studies that suggest the genetic makeup of all humans can be traced back to a few tribes in Africa (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/06/0624_050624_spencerwells.html). It discusses how these tribes expanded and spread across the planet over generations. Who would you like to claim what land? If we drop this ridiculous argument, perhaps even the Jews and Arabs could live together in harmony.

Amrit: I think your chronology is a little off when it comes to the Jews.

Illegal aliens are leeches. They want to suck their livelihood off of America. Damn parasites. If you're so hard working why are your countries so bad off? Stop taking your damn siestas, get off your ass and help your own country. But get out of mine first. You suck.

this is one fricken long article

Everyone keeps asking why their country is so "bad off". clearly you either 1) have not read all the posts explaining it or 2) know nothing about the degree of U.S. involvement in El Salvador.

Either way, you should really stop displaying your ignorance so publicly. Quite frankly, i am embarrassed for you.

Mr. Brown, your posting is not elegant or eloquent. It's just true. Well said.

Charles,

Farming isn't that easy. Especially in El Salvador. Maybe the climate is appropriate during certain seasons, but it is a lot more than that. Everything requires money; land, equipment, transportation to get to the fields or to sell the crops, (gas is even higher in El Salvador then the U.S.), and many many more things. The amount of money in the agricultural business isn't so much, unless you are one of the rare people who actually is very successful. By the time you harvest everthing and feed your family, not much is left to make a decent living.

Plus, who are people going to sell their crops to if every other person is using that same solution to get out of poverty? And if you want their own businesses to start up, then start by taking out American corporations that are taking advantage of the poverty in El Salvador and reaping the country of its culture and individuality.

When I stayed in El Salvador, I talked to a man whose land was destroyed, and the government, after he pleaded to them for any sort of job, was unable to provide a solution. Now he struggles just to feed his family. There is no quick and easy solution for any of this, and lets stop pretending that there is. If nothing else, El Salvador needs the international community to hear its cries and struggles and, at the least, to care.

I foresee a Civil War in this country, because we are becoming two nations in one. One Spanish speaking and the other English speaking. With the large influx of illegal aliens from El Salvador, Mexico, and other Central American countries, this has caused problems in many black and white communities. Whites don't want these people with their third world customs living in their communities, and blacks don't want them taking over their communities either. With all this confusion, this is going to cause a Civil War in this country, because most U.S. voters are fed up with illegals taken over this country, and demanding rights. They should all be sent back home to El Salvador and Mexico. We already had poor race relations with blacks and whites in this country. Now you will have blacks and whites hating the illegals, because this illegal alien mess is destroying both communities.

I have just finished reading the last day and a half of posts and find them interesting. I think that there have been some good and interesting points made, and we have all made use of our first amendment rights to speak freely. But that right never said that we would speak intelligently.

This issue is one that will not go away, even if we grant status to all who are here, or if we return everyone home. The problem grows from ignorance and this inherent need to only know that which is around us, what is just like us, which explains why we followed the ideals of manifest destiny for so long. We only care about that which we understand, and unfortunately we all lose because of it.

Hope you all read this,

I was born in El Salvador, brought here at the age of 2 because of the civil war in the 80's. I didn't have any say in what country to call my own. I grew up here, went to school here, graduated from college here, and earned my citizenship--this is my home. You're not kicking me out Mr. Burn the Mexican flag.

I have been serving in the military, worked my way up the ranks, and now lead your children to war as a military officer. This is my country too. You have to understand that many of us were just brought here as babies. This is the only home many of us know.

Sure it's not America's fault the world sucks, but immigration is just a part of this country. Let join together and figure out a rational way to solve this.

Reading these posts, I find them interesting. To all you whites out their who support open borders and illegal immigration, many of the racist Mexican groups have stated, all white people should go back to Europe, and blacks should go back to Africa. They said, this land belongs to them. The racist Mexican organization La Raza (the Race)is not inclusive of blacks. The N.A.A.C.P. and other black orgaizations have spoken out in favor of granting amnesty and citizenship to illegal aliens. Latinos can be of any race, and many are racist against black Americans. This is why many blacks have not participated in their marches. It was an insult to compare thier cause to the Civil Rights movement of the 60's. Blacks were U.S. citizens fighting for their rights under Jim Crowism. These people entered the country at their own free will. I agree with one Post, there will be a Civil War in this country. It's not like we are getting El Salvador and Mexico's educated citizens, instead we are getting their less educated. Many of our coummunities have been plagued with Ms-13 Mara Salvatrucha, STC (Street Thug Criminals), and Vatos Locos gang members tagging our communities. Many of these people don't know how to live in a clean and safe environment. They move into the community with large groups of people in apartments and houses trashing many our communities. They disregard our law by crossing our border unwelcomed. The United States is becoming a third world nation. This madness has extended out into rural America, and the American people are fed up with illegal aliens. They have not right to be here. All illegal aliens should be sent back to their country, whether it's Europe, Africa, Central, and South America. We can not continue to take in other countries poor citizens. These people have not been checked for diseases like T.B. and other diseases. Every other group have assimilated here, but these Spanish speakers have been here for years, and they still don't want to learn English. Seeing these criminals walking in the streets protesting with Mexican, Salvadoran, and other flags, this tells me, they don't want to be true U.S. citizens. I am tired of what's been happening, and as a Democrat, I will vote for which ever party in Congress secure our borders. I want this madness to stop. We can decided later, what to do with these 20 million illegal aliens already here.

David made some interesting comments. As an African American, I don't support giving citizenship and amnesty to these illegal aliens. During the Civil Rights movement, Mexican Americans were asked to particpate, but many said, this was not their problem, because their birth certificates said white, not colored or Negro. Many of our black communities are being overwhelmed, and we are losing the culture in many of our traditional black communities, as some Italians have complained in Long Island, New York. U.S. blacks are not immigrants. Their ancestors were brought here as slaves against their will. These people are crossing our porous borders of their own free will. I support legal immigration, not illegal immigration. Both the Democrats and Republicans have sold the U.S. voters out on this issue. We need to form a third party in this country, because both parties suck.

Julie:

"Everyone keeps asking why their country is so "bad off". clearly you either 1) have not read all the posts explaining it or 2) know nothing about the degree of U.S. involvement in El Salvador."

Are you suggesting that every country/nation/peoples that has in some way wronged another country is forever in arrears to the aggrieved party? I apologize for digressing again, but how far back into history would you like to go? The Europeans colonized Asia and Africa and some would say that the bloodshed in Africa is the legacy of those ventures. The Aborigines of America and Australia were decimated by European invasions. How about the devastation perpetrated by the Mongols, the Romans, the Turks, the Russians?

Even if you think that such help is warranted, reasonable and realistic, are you suggesting that tolerating illegal immigration should be that help, or is perhaps the "reward" for their suffering?

"Either way, you should really stop displaying your ignorance so publicly. Quite frankly, i am embarrassed for you."

I imagine that the above was directed at my second post. I admitted my ignorance about U.S involvement in Latin America (Its hard enough keeping track of their shenanigans in the Middle East). Why should I be embarrassed about admitting that I am not well versed in the politics of a particular region? I would rather admit my ignorance, than try and pass as a pompous knows it all. In any case my comments were generalized in terms of any nation blaming its historical aggressors for their ills and looking towards them for help and restitution, so my knowledge of Latin America should not have any bearing on them.

There is no way 12 million people will be deported, so give them papers and know who they are --that is if you want to secure your country, otherwise don't do anything.

Soy ciudadano salvadoreno y estadounidense tambien. This is the new era.

Reading today's Washington Post, I see the residents of Herndon, Virginia voted out their mayor, and the Councilmembers who supported a Day Labor Site for illegal aliens. Also, States like Georgia have past their own immigration laws, because they are tired of the federal government dragging their feet. These 12 to 20 million illegal aliens are not voters in this country, therefore they have no rights in this country. By protesting and taking over our streets, black, white, and American Hispanic citizens are fed up. You will see many of these politicians in the Senate and the House voted out of office this November, because the majority of U.S. citizens and voters are fed up with this illegal invasion of our country. We have a right to protect our porous borders. The federal government need to go after the employers, who provide the cheap labor, and take advantage of these people. It should be a felony for the employers to hire illegal aliens. Our healthcare, education, housing, and other social services are being strained, because illegal aliens have added a financial burden to many municipalities. It's ridiculous, politicians like Ted Kennedy has been in office for 44 years. Black U.S. citizens should be outraged at Senator Kennedy for pandering to a bunch of criminals, and saying their cause was the same as the Civil Rights movement of the 60's. Blacks were U.S. citizens fighting for their rights as citizens under the 14th Amendment. These people are not citizens, and they are leaving their countries of their own free will. They should go back to their countries and protest for change and a better life back home. Many of these politicians need to retire, and we should have term limits in Congress.

Quite sad to read these posts.

A good buddy of mine came to the United States when his family was in danger in El Salvador during the late 70s, he was only four when he arrived in DC. He arrived not illegally but with a resident permit which his parents had arranged beforehand. He went to elementary school and high school and then joined the Marines. He was more American than any of my other buddies. During the Gulf War he was shot and killed by a sniper. His head was blown to pieces. Just remembering this makes me feel sad and anyone who has been in the service knows what this feels like. Don't underestimate our fellow immigrants. These folks are hard working and if giving the opportunity can contribute greatly to our nation. In fact these immigrants hate their leaders and the elite in their former countries. Remember, many leave their country out of lack of work and corruption and mistreatment from the elite. Hence, they hate Latin American leaders who only point the finger at the US.

Also, let's not forget that much of the US was part of Mexico or Spain and we, either by force or by agreement, acquired California, Texas, Florida, etc. There is a high percentage of Americans with Hispanic or Spanish heritage who are more Americans than any other immigrant who came from England, Germany and other parts of Europe.

God bless!

"And anyone who says that America doesn't have an influence in El Salvador should look at how big the U.S. Embassy is there compared to every other building"

Rachel H. you are right, I've been in San Salvador a couple of times and it looks like a freaking fortress but that's the least of worries, the country itself feels like another state of the unions with its dollars and a facade of prosperity (based primarily in remittances), new buildings, resorts and shopping malls nobody can't afford while president Saca plays US ally 24x7. The only ones enjoying the artificial bonanza are the same elite that has ruled that country for years and years. Of course, they would like to keep the status quo.

A few points.

One, most credible economic analyses calculate the cost/benefit ratio of immigration to be a wash at the federal level; at the state level, border states suffer from unfunded mandates passed by Congress. The problem, to the extent one exists, could be solved by a more efficient allocation of revenues between the federal and state governments, not mass deportations.

The countries of latin America are putting their houses in order. Neo-liberal economic policies and anti-communist military policies created an extremely corrupt, class-riven system in many countries that will take generations to correct. Those who claim immigration only helps corporations fail to see that corporations in large part created and exacerbated the economic and social mess immigrants are trying to flee. So punish the corporations, not the poor people feeling hardship--but everyone seems to want to beat down the little guy, not take on the bully.

Part 2 of the changes in Latin America: SOUTHCOM generals have derided the leftward movement in Latin America as an emerging terrorist threat. Don't expect foreign policy to change anytime soon.

I too have visited El Salvador. The guy who thinks Salvadorans should just try farming is, to be kind, woefully ignorant. The people have tried for generations to subsist on their own farms, only to be driven off the land by large landholders who supply cotton and fruit and rice and bananas to multinational corporations. And if they protest? They're slaughtered. That's what "La Matanza" means: the military crushed the peasant rebellion in the 1930s, and then ruled until 1992--but the reforms dictated by the peace accords have not been carried out, corruption remains, etc. And El Salvador is now our forward operating location for the export of force in Latin America, so we don't want things to change. (Remember: Latin America is full of "emerging terrorist threats." We need our miltiary bases.)

CAFTA will only help the usual folks reap millions. Ordinary citizens in Central America will not benefit from this much, if at all.

MS-13 is not an invading force. The gang started in LA to protect Salvadoran youth from mexican gangs. They began being deported after the 1992 peace accords, and now comprise one of the largest social and legal problems in the region. This is what happens when you return criminals to countries with weak judicial systems and crumbling social structures.They're also involved in smuggling people back to the US. But we deported them in the first place, so who do you want to blame?

Last: "illegal" is a loaded term used by many here to stigmatize a certain group of immigrants. The laws being broken are not criminal statutes, but civil ones. Building coddes, for example, are civil codes that also get violated all the time. We use the term "illegal unit" but does anybody really think we should put a guy in jail (or deport him) because he built a bathroom with a 12 gallon toilet or a full-stream showerhead?

Maybe we should all calm down a little. The attmept to find an "other" to despise and blame for our problems is as old as civilization. it's also evil and misguided. They're people, like you and me. Whatever solution we ultimately decide upon, let's hope it keeps that in mind.

Salvadorean, you share company with the likes of Hillary Clinton, George Bush, Howard Dean, and a majority of the editors of most newspapers "....there is no way we can deport 12 million illeal aliens..." Oh really? For less than 200 billion dollars (the highest estimate I have seen) we could round and deport every single illegal alien in this country, we could close TIGHT and COMPLETELY our borders, AND - if you have been reading at all - we would be saving the U.S. treasury someowhere in the neighborhood of 1.4 TRILLION dollars in doing so, so don't think for one minute that it cannot be done. Moreover, the vast majority, like two-thirds of the voters, actually WANT to do this. And, finally, about an equal number of voters describing themselves as conservatives and as liberals want every single illegal alien deported. This wish has been on the back burner, but your May1 protest moved it to the front burner. Now, people are paying attention, writing about it, actually finding out about the costs of maintaining these millions, and they are getting very very angry at their representartives. I'll make you a bet. I bet that this one issue and her stance on it just sank Hillary Clinton's Presidential ambitions. The DNC, and I'm a Democrat, thinks that by supporting amnesty they have found a leverage issue they can beat the Republican's with by cutting into the 40% or so of the Hispanic vote the Republiocan road to victory with during the last election. To be sure, they will probably get that hispanic vote, but they WILL loose mine. I flat out WILL NOT vote for any candidate nor party running on a platform or otherwise advocating anything other than mass deportation and ending H1-B and L-1 visas. This is THE #1 issue right now. It take priority over Iraq, over everything else simply because it IS everything else - it IS the economy, fuel price increases can be directly tied to our immigration and outsourcing policies, around half of the violent crimes in this country are committed by illegals, etc.

I may be wrong but I have always associated the high cost of living in the United States with two major factors, 1)the cost of services that our municipal, state and federal governments provides us (road systems, police services, schools etc) and 2) lack of governmental control on medical expenses. If I didn't have to pay Uncle Sam the 27% that he takes out of my monthly check or if I could just reduce my health insurance costs by a mere $200 a month, I would be getting along with a lot less financial worries than I do now. Of course if Uncle Sam didn't take my money then I wouldn't have the right to complain about roads, the quality of my schools or police presence on my streets so its kind of a catch 22. One thing I am pretty sure of though is that the illegal Salvadoran living in the United States is not the reason our taxes are so high nor do I buy the argument that they are eating up 1.7 trillion dollars of our annual, federal budget. If we looked at how many illegal immigrants receive food stamps, unemployment checks or medicare support I think you will find that the answer is close to 0 since they can't apply to these programs. While there is truth to the fact that there are illegals who eat up some of our tax dollars by being in our prison systems or using state funded hospitals I think the costs are well worth it when we weigh what they provide our society in terms of labor and culture. We have to recognize that the U.S. did play a role in developing the current economic/political environment in which most of our southern neighbors now find themselves as did the former Soviet Union. To say that these two nations are solely responsable would be inaccurate as well so let's share some of the blame with the current/former ruling governments and guerilla movements of the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. Now that we are all to blame....we should look at how we can fix this mess. In a time when the US's image has been so damaged internationally, couldn't we offer a good will gesture to our neighbors by granting the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants permanent residency status. This would force US employeers to pay higher wages and thus put a stop to the issue of higher paying jobs going to illegals for less than normal wages. We could also allow our immigrants to find more dignified work, pay taxes and contribute more to the system then they are currently allowed to do. At the same time, we could tighten controls on our borders, work with our neighbors on not only controling immigration but also in producing socieities that offer their own people basic services, security and job opportunities so their people are not forced to leave their homes and loved ones in search of better economic opportunities.

AN ANSWER TO: Posted by: | May 2, 2006 08:23 PM,

You didn't seem to notice the capital letters. THEY ARE ILLEGAL, AND DEMAND RIGHTS OF WHICH THEY HAVE NO CLAIM.
That is why I am so upset at these ILLEGAL ALIENS.

Charles,

I guess unless you could experience first hand the poverty and desperation that many of these people experience...you'll never understand why they risk their lives in trying to come to the US to begin with. Our rags to riches story can not be compared to their struggle because they have never had presidents like Roosevelt who develop policies and systems to bail their farmers out when times get tough. Despite what many people think, most farmers in Central America are able to plant one crop per year...there is a dry season and a rainy season like we have summer and winter. During the dry season there is no planting because most rural communities don't have potable water systems let alone irrigation systems. Another thing that most people don't know is that most farmers don't own their land and are entitled to much less than our farmers in terms of production. The golden opportunities that we are raised to believe in in the US are mere fantasies south of our border...there are no opportunities and no amount of hard work will change that. Our current and past foreign policies should compell us to look upon Central America with a compassionate heart and not with anger towards their illegal immigrants. I understand your anger and also understand that this is not about them asking for rights which legally don't belong to them However, if we wash our hands of the responsability that we as a nation have had in creating this dilemma that would be unfair and un-American. You make it sound as if the legal process is easy....I don't know where your mother came from but in El Salvador you get legal residency only if you have a family member who is legalized in the US soliciting that residency for you...there is no other way or option other than illegal immigration if you don't fall into that category. When you have children starving and no job oportunities open to you...you'll do anything to put food on the table. This is the moment for us to put an end to the debate, to be compansionate. I favor tighter border control policies but let's not lose this opportunity to demonstrate once again to the world why America is so great.

As a Peace Corps Volunteer who has now lived in El Salvador for three years, I hate seeing all immigrants labeled badly. Many go to the states for the same reasons our ancestors imigrated from Europe.
You can make the decision to say "yes" or "no" but in the end remember that many of these people face an extreme poverty which includes no potable water,a outrageous unemployment rate, no clinic let alone health care, corrupt government (Tony Saca and friends are the best guys to contact if you want money laundered), a horrible education system, a death rate of 12 Salvadorans murdered a DAY, and the always lovely problem of gangs.
The faster we give these people citizenship, the faster they can become educated, and the faster they join the work force as tax paying Americans!
In the end, if it means me paying more money, so be it. I don't live my life like most materialistic Americans, and would take pleasure in knowing I'm helping someone improve their life.

Ask yourself two questions:
Are you racist?
Do you want to serve me fries?

Posters who want to justify granting some sort of legal status to illegal immigrants keep writing about the desperate straights in their home countrties and how hard they work. Well, the Amercian workers displaced by these immigrants are in desparate straights, too, and they worked hard. I get the idea that everyone supporting illegal immigration is either an illegal immigrant or a government worker whose job depends on supplying them services.

That is funny, Mr. Brooks, that you think we are all government workers or immigrants. I'll be the first to assure you that [as far as I know] these posters are not politicans.
[If only they cared enough to discuss things like this with ordinary people!] Your kind of thinking is what worries people like me. We wonder why people can't just care for the sake of