Dutch Reconsider Expelling Islam Critic

Hirsi Ali, a Somali-born woman who has made waves in Europe for her sharp criticism of Islam, may not have to leave the Netherlands after all.

Amidst a barrage of negative press coverage, the Dutch parliament today forced the government to reconsider its decision to strip Ali of her citizenship.

The prospect of Ali being forced out of Europe provoked "shame at the fact that there [is] clearly no longer a place in the country like the Netherlands for this flamboyant, dissident personality," wrote Bertus Hendriks of Radio Netherlands.

Afshin Ellian, an Iranian-born Dutch professor of legal philosophy, told the German newsweekly, Spiegel Online, "This affair is a disgrace for our country and for all of Europe. Voltaire and Erasmus are turning over in their graves."

A majority of the lower house of the Dutch parliament concluded that Rita Verdonk, the Aliens Affairs minister, had interpreted the country's asylum law too narrowly in Ali' case. The parliamentarians noted that Ali had adopted her new name five years before coming to Holland and that, as the subject of frequent death threats, she was an exceptional case. Verdonk has six weeks to reach a new decision.

Meanwhile, the American Enterprise Institute has confirmed to the Post that Ali will become a resident fellow at the conservative Washington think tank next September.

By Jefferson Morley |  May 17, 2006; 5:25 PM ET  | Category:  Europe
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I think the press, and especially the foreign press is doing a horrible job at covering this story. Hirsi Ali (Magan) has been proven to lie on many things, including her name, her birthdate, her background story, her history and many, many other things. It's a disgrace that the entire story about her family being extremist islamists and seeking to kill her has been proven one fat lie. Many other lies have also been revealed, but one thing is very clear, this woman has been lying to the Dutch state, to her party members, to her voters, to Dutch citizens, to her critics and to anyone who heard her "story" during countless of speeches and interviews, or read it in one of her many books or articles.

It will be interesting to see if the Dutch state will manage to keep her. Only weeks ago a similar case did not get any symphathy, and every year hundreds of people get send away for similar offences. No one cares about these other cases, no one cares about the Mohammeds and Marcello's who are expelled and barely have a day to leave the country.

Now they want to make an exception for Hirsi Ali (or actually Hirsi Magan since thats her real name). It will be interesting to see how that will be explained without basically destroying what is left of Democracy and fair treatment of people. After all, politicians do not stand above the law.

And deceitful politicians who gather national and international fame based on lies are the last people that deserve our symphathy.

Posted by: Frek | May 18, 2006 10:49 AM

any one has the right to express one opinion. the world press is too soft at the Moslim community as ther latter has to obey the laws,culture,language of the country of their own choosing otherwise stay home and protest their own government

Posted by: Vellinga | May 18, 2006 10:52 AM

I am very sorry sir but this time you are totally mistaken in your comments on Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

The Minister of Immigration Affaires herself is an outspoken hardliner against allowing radical Muslims to enter The Netherlands. She is even of the same political party as Hirsi Ali.

Beside that, parliament has many other strongly outspoken critics of Islam. The critical attitude of Hirsi Ali against Islam is certainly NOT the reason why she has to start her process of nationalization again. She is fully allowed to stay in The Netherlands as a refugee, she is fully allowed to participate in social life, she is not expelled, BUT she has lied in the process of getting her passport.

May I ask you what happens with those who enter the USA with obvious lies?

Hirsi Ali has become the victim of her own lies. I wished it were different. I agree with her strong warnings against radical Islam. I do not agree with the fact that she entered Holland based on lies.

Posted by: jos strengholt | May 18, 2006 11:04 AM


Vellinga the issue is not the Muslim community, that is the mistake the press and armchair analysts seem to make. The issue is that we have someone who lied at their application for citizenship, and then continued to make up a history for herself that placed her as a victim of Islam. A history that she used at her speeches, her books, her interviews, everywhere.

She was a lyar. She made up everything. Should she be treated as an exception only because she is a muslim basher? Are muslim bashers supposed to stand above the law? Do politicians stand above the law? Can anyone come to the netherlands, make up an identity and lie their career together and then be rewarded for it?

I don't think so. This woman has proven to be a fraud, and now that her lies have been made aware to everyone, she should be treated exactly as any other Dutch citizen. Either they allow all illegal immigrants to live in Holland, or they don't but then Hirsi should be treated just like any other illegal who lied at their application.

Her position on Muslims does not matter in this case. Is someone who bashes Muslims allowed to spread lies? Is someone who bashes Muslims above the law? If your anwser is yes then I suppose you consider people who bash Muslims as more important and having more rights then someone who doesn't. I wouldn't agree with that, and thankfully our wise minister of immigration doesn't either.

Posted by: Frek | May 18, 2006 11:09 AM

I totally agree with Frek. This matter is not about Ms. Ali is Muslim basher or not. She simply lies to obtain refugee status. Dutch are proud to be a Law abiding Democracy if the law is twisted just for this case that would be a great shame to Dutch values and democracy.
The decision by immigration minister is totally accurate however if the decision is reversed that would be hypocrisy. Where are the right wingers and g-d fathers of anti-immigration now?

Posted by: Yitzhak | May 18, 2006 11:56 AM

Theo Von Gogh would still be alive today with us if he would just know her lies then.

Posted by: Yitzhak | May 18, 2006 12:01 PM

He's still be alive today if some radical didn't kill him. but then again, blame the woman, it's her fault. She made the crazy muslim kill him.

Posted by: | May 18, 2006 12:28 PM

When a muslim criticizes his/her religion they have to hide, lie and protect themselves at all costs. Europe and the Americas are no safe haven for apsotates. She is a brave outspoken person and rightly calls islam what it is, a violent religion with mad men as followers. What is an Islam basher? You cannot bash a lie only expose it.

Posted by: Arif | May 18, 2006 12:46 PM

This is just another example of the damage an incompetent Secretary who is part of an incompetent Administration can do. The facts about Hirsi Ali's naturalization could have been known years ago, and her status could have been adjusted then, resulting in a 'proper' Dutch citizenship. Only the Dutch government is responsible for the current mess. It should also be noted that Ms. Ali was treated relatively respectfully by the Dutch authorities: she got advance warning that her citizenship would be revoked, and was allowed te stay in the Netherlands. Others in a similar situation would have been detained and deported without any mercy.

Posted by: Hugo Kijne | May 18, 2006 01:00 PM

vitzhak, do not talk about laws,lies and rules here, Verdonk was busy playing cheap political stunts for her own gain and you think it benefits you - NO. Listen there are thousands of islamofacists in the Netherlands who are prepared to blow the country into rubbish. Why she never gather those and confiscate their passport and send them out. Here, we talk of change of surname and date of birth lies to rubbish such an icon and you are supporting it. I wish you well with your islamofacists.

Posted by: chike | May 18, 2006 01:11 PM

"When a muslim criticizes his/her religion they have to hide, lie and protect themselves at all costs. Europe and the Americas are no safe haven for apsotates. She is a brave outspoken person and rightly calls islam what it is, a violent religion with mad men as followers. What is an Islam basher? You cannot bash a lie only expose it. "

But thats the core of the problem. She wasn't an apostate. Apparantly her parents where divorced and not married, and her parents left it to their children to decide what religion to take. That's why her brother went to a christian school and became a christian.

She has been lying about everything. The part about the name and birthdate is all in the media because its that part that conflicts with the law and will get her to lose Dutch nationality. But what was revealed is far more. She wasn't a muslim girl living conservative muslim tribe in the Somali desert. She was a calculated intelligent girl from a wealthy, modern and openminded family that lived in Kenya. She didn't have to fear anyone. In fact, she invited her family home after she lived in the netherlands,and she even invited her ex-husband home (who she previously claimed to have never seen nor married).

The point is, your image of Ayaan Hirsi Ali is completely false. She is a completely different person than she has told everyone she is. Are you willing to defend a lyar who lied about everything you know about her just to get a passport, and quitly more tragic, a career in politics?

Maybe don't care about lyars and people who make up their life story just to bring across a point. I frankly think its disgusting, and I would like to see her treated by the law just like any other immigrant would be treated.

I hear now she will go the United States, and the United States will take her in regardless of her status. That's fine, good luck with her. My advice would be to be very sceptical when she opens her mouth, but I wish her well in the states.

And her position in the states shouldn't give her so much trouble either, since America is very different when it comes to immigration and a persons legal status as immigrant. From what I hear there are no problems with illegal aliens and immigrants in the U.S. at all.

Posted by: Frek | May 18, 2006 01:15 PM

You all seem to miss one thing. This woman has confessed that she has lied long ago - before joing paliament. So what's the new thing now? Why this week? Why the need to "investigate" someting publicly admitted by the woman herself? All this is nonsense.

Posted by: confused | May 18, 2006 01:28 PM

"She wasn't an apostate. Apparantly her parents where divorced and not married, and her parents left it to their children to decide what religion to take. That's why her brother went to a christian school and became a christian. "
Are you making this up? People in the east take their religions very seriously, they don't bring up their children so that "they can choose", that simply doesn't happen. You have to look at her for her outspoken views on Islam. How many people openly expose islam? Few if any, those cartoonists... they'll be hiding for the rest of their lives.

Posted by: Arif | May 18, 2006 02:46 PM

Confused, the question is why wasn't this investigated earlier. That's still a puzzle considering that in normal circomstances the moment identity fraud is detected, a letter goes to the the person commiting the fraud, telling them their citizenship is invalid.

I guess the television program last week puts things together, and suddenly everyone realised what was going on.

Anyways, the formal answer to the questoin as to why now investigate, is because one parliament member, the independent Hilbrand Nawijn who was kicked out of his party because he visited the belgian extreme right vlaams blok party, asked the question about Ayaans identity. He said:

"If Ayaan Hirsi Ali publically admits that her real name is Ayaan Hirsi Magan, I'm very curious what the name is in her passport, and her naturalisation registration form. Because if it says Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and here name is Ayaan Hirsi Magan, then her naturalisation is invalid, and she is not a Dutch citizen. And if she is not a Dutch citizen she is by law not allowed to have a seat in parliament."

Now the person (Hilbrand Nawijn) who asked this question to the current Minister of Immigration(Rita Verdonk), was in fact the former minister of immigration.

Faced by this question Rita Verdonk had no other option than to investigate. There is not a lot of investigating to do.

The name in the records say Ayaan Hirsi Ali. But she is on television, in writing, saying she lied about her name, the countries she had lived in, her story and her birthdate.

Case closed.

A few days later the bomb is dropped. By law Ayaan Hirsi Ali is not Ayaan Hirsi Ali and commited identity fraud at her application, and therefore is no longer A dutch citizen.

Nothing can change this fact, unless they change the law. But then it changes for everyone. And in the world of today that would basically mean that people are allowed to lie about their identity when they apply for dutch citizenship. I think theres some people who would not want that.

Posted by: Frek | May 18, 2006 02:49 PM

she took a big risk by raising her profile under these circumsatnces. However if she had admitted to errors on her asylum and immigration applications many years earlier and was granted citizenship as reported she cannot be investigated again unless something truly earthshaking comes to light. otherwise it is double investigation of one offence which is not permitted under any law.

Posted by: KMV | May 18, 2006 03:33 PM

Why is it that when one Muslim beats, rapes, and/or kills another Muslim, it's "Muslim-bashing" to criticize the attacker but it's not "Muslim-bashing" to do that attack in the first place?

Posted by: Nina | May 18, 2006 04:16 PM

Well, I look at it this way.

She's points out the truth of the muslim way of life, is getting death threats, and will now be killed unless she flees the country for somewhere sane.

This is the real thrust of the issue. Unless she wants to end up like other assassinated dutch politicians, she has to seek asylum in a safer country.

You can go around and around about the rule of law and lies and such, but you're all missing the more important point that the Netherlands is now a country people seek asylum FROM, rather than one that people flee to.

Posted by: Bill | May 18, 2006 04:40 PM

Frek, do not worry, whether the Americans would be sceptical when this fraud, Ali,Magan ... etc, opens her mouth. This should not be a problem at all. There are so many liars in the current American Administration.

Posted by: Analyser | May 18, 2006 04:46 PM

he Frek, apart from her name (she used her mothers name) and birthdate, you are the one spreading lies here. Shame on you.

Posted by: Eric | May 18, 2006 07:03 PM

Verdonk rubberstamped the residence permits of radical muslim clerics while they publically gloated over the death of Theo Van Gogh and called for violence against a Dutch MP, Ayaan Hirsi Ali. That is why Ali has been living in hiding like Anne Frank, for the last 2 years. And now Verdonk choses to deport Ali?

It saddens me to hear that Holland values a Neville Chamberlain-eque Verdonk more than Hirsi Ali, a courageous leader who risked her life to warn holland of the dangers of islamic intolerance. America will be lucky to count Ayaan Hirsi Ali among their citizens. And I think it will not be long before Ali takes a role in American politics.

Posted by: Deport_Verdonk | May 18, 2006 07:06 PM

It's heartening to see how solidarity with Hirsi Ali is turning the focus on this populist minister who "is only following the law" not only in this case but in the case of thousands of people who get sent back to their country of doom for trivial and bureaucratic reasons. The Germans had a saying "befehl ist befehl" which meant that if I get an order then well, I am only doing my duty. When lives are at stake and by all means in current European extradition policies they most certainly are, one cannot hide behind ones civic duty because in the end all of western law is upheld by commonly held moral values. These we must all seek to espouse on either side of the Atlantic. While countries like the Netherlands certainly should not absorb people beyond capacity, no liberal democracy worth its salt should feel justified in forfeiting anyones human rights.

Imagine being a young female from a muslem country fleeing for your freedom and sitting in front of an immigration officer, how tempted will you be to be creative with the truth? This isn't just about Hirsi Ali, it's about all those nameless people who flee oppression and who, with genuine concern and fear for their human rights and lives, are being deported back to their worst nightmare. Hirsi Ali won't be deported anywhere, but thousands of others have been, are and will be.

This debate in Europe cannot be confused with the current debate in the US; the one in the US is almost exclusively about people seeking jobs, the one in Europe is mainly about people seeking freedom from oppression.

Posted by: jvd70 | May 18, 2006 07:29 PM

First of all she is not a girl from a muslem country, as Kenya cannot be labelled as such.

Second of all, someone mentioned her status as muslim and apostate again. Let me repeat, her parents, who are divorced, gave their children a choice where to go to. They where not hardcore muslims forcing their children in a direction, they where wealthy modern parents who gave their children a choice.

Thats why her brother chose christianity.

Thirdly if her family was so strickt in their islam, how come the parents where divorced? If she was an apostate, then what was her mother?

To the people who say I'm lying, these facts have been found out in the revealing television program. The witnesses are her direct family, her Dutch gaurdian/teacher and her close friends, including one girl she calls her sister.

The telivision program can be found here, but you have to understand dutch to understand the program.

http://omroep.vara.nl/tvradiointernet_detail.jsp?maintopic=424&subtopic=4177

Last but not least, I'm sorry for having a minister who upheld the law. I'm sure that many people out there would prefer it if Mrs. Verdonk would make an exception for Ayaan. The problem is that even if she did, eventually this issue would be brought to court (by other lawyers who defend other frauds) and eventually the Judge would decide that either everyone is allowed to lie on their application, or that Ayaan should face the same consequences.

You see, even if Ayaan is such a great person, who despite all her lies did such wonderful things, we have some basic constitutional concept.

One such concept is that no-one is above the law, everyone is created equal. Someone compared the situation with the nazi's, well let me tell you, the nazi's did not have this concept. In fact the nazi's believed exactly the opposite, which is that some people where worth more than others. Because we are not like them, and because we are not a banana republic where members of parliament can simply break the law without problems, Ayaan is facing the consequences of her fraud.

Posted by: | May 19, 2006 01:15 AM


There was not oppression in Ayaan's case. She lived in a non-muslim peaceful country, in a giant luxury house being part of a modern family where children where allowed to choose their religion. The whole escape from Muslim oppressian and war story was made up.

Posted by: Dutchman | May 19, 2006 01:18 AM

[Again]
Here's a bit more background on the story:
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a member of the same [liberal] party as Rita Verdonk.

Rita Verdonk is well known for her strict, but fair, immigration policy.
Just a couple of weeks ago she'd send a young girl [Taida Pasic] - who lied to get into the Netherlands - back to her own country.

Rita Verdonk is the most populair minister at the moment. Her - and Ayaan's - party were gaining in the polls.


The party [labor] who was losing in the polls, also has the largest number of muslim-voters.
The radical muslims in the Netherlands hate Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Now listen to this:

The documentary, which showed nothing new, [everyone knew Ayaan had lied] was made by Zembla which is owned by the labor party.

Right after the 'documentary' was aired, the whole stinking mess began.

Rita Verdonk couldn't take any other way with Ayaan as she did with the Pasic girl.

Labor knew that.

So:

Labor got rid of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, thereby satisfying it's muslim voters.
Labor made sure Rita Verdonk is seen as the monster in this debacle, thereby getting rid of the most populair minister.
Labor is hoping this whole thing will get the voters, who supported Ayaan AND Rita Verdonk, back.

As Theo van Gogh's [the director of Ayaan's movie - who was butchered by a muslim] Mother said:
"Labor laid a mouse-trap for Rita Verdonk, with Ayaan Hirsi Ali as bait."


In the meanwhile the Netherlands have lost an intelligent and very brave woman.

I'm very much ashamed being Dutch, right now.

Ayaan: I apologise for the Dutch.
Fare well, my dear.
May peace be with you and may you have a happy life in the beautiful USA.

GJ Klaver.

Posted by: GJ Klaver. Amsterdam the Netherlands | May 19, 2006 01:32 AM

If there's any doubt on my above post, search for Zembla - who made de 'documentary' - and search for how much the other party [PvdA = labor] is involved in Zembla.

Labor is the party who chased Ayaan Hirsi Ali away.
Yes, she lied, but she wrote that in her first book many, many years ago.
The 'documentary' started the whole row and incidentally removed Rita Verdonk as a dangerous opponent to labor.

Frek: Do you have anything against black women, or are you a muslim yourself?

Posted by: GJ Klaver. Amsterdam the Netherlands | May 19, 2006 01:41 AM

That she "wrote that in her first book many, many years ago" dos not free her from being a liar. I do not believe in any religion and have nothing against black women. But it seems to me, that this woman lies, even when she lies. So I can follow the argumentation of Frek very well. Anyhow, God bless this new American citizen !

Posted by: Analyser | May 19, 2006 02:58 AM


This has nothing to do with being black or being muslim. This has everything to do with upholding the law for everyone equally.

Now you can claim that the television program was all a big conspiracy by the left. Maybe it was, just like Bill Clinton's monica affair was a conspiracy by the right, and Watergate was a conspircay by the american left. Any revelation servers one party or the other.

That does not change the facts however. The simple fact is that Ayaan has not illegally entered this country and is not a Dutch citizen, and the proof is so overwelming that it puts the Dutch goverment with the following issue.

Either they forget about the whole thing, in that case thousands of immigrants that where actually put out of the country then have a right to come back. It would also mean that the Netherlands would become the first European country where a person is allowed to lie to become a citizen.

Or they handle this with care. They expelled an 18 year old girl, not to long ago because she lied at her application. She only needed 3 more weeks before she would graduate at university, but she was not allowed to finish her school.

All those right-wingers that have a big mouth now, back then where so proud of our minister of immigration. So proud they where of VVD party. Here was a minister who stood for something and who would truly fix Hollands immigration party. Rules are rules, Mrs Verdonk said back then, and all the right wing fan boys championed those words like they where directly from the messiah.

A few weeks later it appears that the same thing has happened with one of their own heroes. And suddenly Mrs. Verdonk is inhumane, our immigration policy is inhumane. Suddenly they are no longer championing the words "rules are rules" like they come from the messiah, and their former champion who so proudly closed the Dutch border has become their biggest enemy. Suddenly the rules and the law has to be bended.

Aren't people funny, how suddenly the champions of the zero tolerance policy change their opinion when its one of their own who becomes victim of this policy?

Posted by: Frek | May 19, 2006 06:26 AM

The story behind the story is clearer now, thanks to GJ Klaver. The quote from Van Gogh's mother was extremely relevant.

And Frek should know that I specifically and Americans in general have a great deal of respect and admiration for the Netherlands. A number of us have lived and worked there, or visited as tourists and fallen in love with the Netherlands, and come to see it almost as a second home (sorry Rita!) Perhaps it's all for the best anyway, because Hirsi Ali will be able to sleep easily at night, knowing she will sleep safer in the US than she ever would have in Holland. In the United States with the security she will be provided, she cannot be hurt, and she can get some much needed rest. And then, I think, she's destined for politics in the US. But I can't help feeling that in the end, the United States will be elevated by her presence, which they've getting by accident, and the NL will have lost something precious and irreplacable.

And I hope that this political trick does not provoke confidence in the radical muslim population within Holland. It would be a shame if they managed to further tear away at one of the countries I consider closest to perfection.

Posted by: Deport_Verdonk | May 19, 2006 09:17 AM

Seems like she did lie. Made up a story got famous then got busted. Wonder what kind of a citizen the US is getting? Wonder what kind of politician she will make if she takes that up? Few things are certain. Immigration policy and asylum procedures need to be re-visited. What I know of her is from the press. This is broken too.
Arif

Posted by: Arif | May 19, 2006 11:19 AM

I know people that have been in the same boat: came to the country, lied on the asylum application and got kicked out when it is was discovered. Her only credential is that she is a fierce critic of Islam and tells people what they like to hear.

Posted by: Harris | May 19, 2006 12:08 PM

Am I reading this correctly, that some Dutch people here espouse the position that liars, by virtue of being liars, have forfeited their human rights?

That would be a rather novel perspective from the birthplace of Erasmus. Even the most horrible mass muderer is protected by the Geneva convention. Liars are too.

If, in theory, Hirsi Ali were to be sent back to Kenya how would her human rights be safeguarded then? And if she is now safe because of her profile how are we to know that the fate of those who got sent back because of this small minded Befehl ist Befehl attitude are still alive?

The Netherlands is a great country for those who think lighting a spliff is the ultimate celebration of liberalism. It bears remembering however that the country's overzealous bureaucracy helped the nazis murder 80% of the country's 100,000 Jews, the highest rate in western Europe. Some people think it's misplaced to compare the current bureaucracy to the one that didn't stand up two thirds of a century ago, well if it's misplaced then by all means do stand up and prove it wrong.

Posted by: jvd70 | May 19, 2006 06:46 PM

I'm loving it.

Right wing bigots where so proud of Rita.

There she was kicking out family after family and the bigots where gloating.

Children where kicked out, and they where cheering.

People who lived and worked over 10 years where deported and they where toasting.

How proud they where of her Rita, for upholding the law, for closing our border.

A new era had started. Holland was no longer an immigration country.

While immigrants with children who could not even remember what their country of birth looked like where brutally deported, the bigots, Ayaan included, where standing in line cheering Rita.

With big boners in their pants and drool coming out of their mouths they cheered. Oh how they loved Rita Verdonk, the woman with guts and attitude. The woman that was unbreakable, and who without mercy kicked thousands of immigrants out of the country for failing their application in one way or the other.

While immigrants who where completly integrated and well studied made passionate pleas with tears in their eyes, Rita didn't make an exception for any of them, not once. With that attitude she become the hero of all the rightwingers, including Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Now, the truth is revealed, and it appears that it is their own darling who needs to be deported. It's no longer "some other foreigner nobody cares about", its their little hero instead.

And look at them now.

Oh the injustice, they cry.
Oh the inhumanity they cry.
She did so much for Holland they cry.
How can Rita Verdonk be so cruel, they cry.
How can our laws be so cruel, they cry.

O'really? And your figuring it out now, now that its one of your darlings who faces the wonderful zero-tolerance policy that made you so happy before? You figure out now how our immigration policy has completely lost touch with humanity and descency? Your calling our system rotten now, now that its not families with 10 year old children being kicked out, but your own little hatemongering lying cinderella. Bigot idiots, you never once had mercy with other foreigners, but now its your own cinderella your begging for mercy and crying injustice.

God how I love this.

Ding dong, the bell rang and now your with your bigot pants down making an idiot out of yourself by attacking the policy, the methods, the laws and the woman who carried them out you all loved.

I hear Ayaan is going to the States now. Good deal I say, let her bore them with her lies and made up stories. She will probably do perfectly fine in American politics, after all they all seem to love lyars over there.

But please, please you right wing bigot idiots that are reading this, do me a favour.

Please cry more. Cry how inhumane it is. Cry about how unfair it all is. Cry for me baby.

Cry more please, because I'm loving every single second of it.

Cheers.

Posted by: crymoreplease | May 19, 2006 07:47 PM

Oh and almost forgot. For all those "shocked" Americans out there who have their opinion ready. Why don't you go check out what happens in your country if you enter it illegally and lie to get your passport. Why don't you go check out your laws and what they say about someone who has the wrong name and the wrong birthdate on their passport. Then come back and tell me what's different with our laws.

Posted by: crymoreplease | May 19, 2006 08:41 PM

All the non-Muslims or Christians that is connected to Muslims from third world countries especially from Islamic countries should do like what Hirsi Ali (morgan) did. Pretend to be apostate and only job is to bash Muslims and religion of Islam and tell what the people want to hear. That way, they can come to the Western countries, get rich by writing books, be a minister, and even get nominated to noble peace prize.

That is what lot people are doing. Almost all of proclaimed anti-islamic "ex-muslims" are fake even the biggest critic of Islam, "Ali Sina", admitted it. Note* some real ex-muslim like Salman Rushdie or Taslima are not total anti-Islamic. Among the liars is Hirsi Morgan. Hirsi's father was like an athiest who lived in the West, and therefore she had a choice to pick any religion that she wants. In fact, she was never a Muslim, she only learned about Islam at the school that she went to.

The fact is no real ex-Muslims would support banning or deporting Muslim immigrants or nuking Islamic countries. Just as no real Palestians ex-muslim would suport Israelis stealing palestian's land. Real ex-muslims want always good for their people. If Hirsi Ali (morgan) policy on immigration was applied, Muslims especially women that Hirsi claim is "abused" would never get the chance like Hirsi to "leave" Islam by living in the West. Why wouldn't Hirsi allow Muslim women to come to the West, so they can learn about modern culture and leave the "evil" religion? Because she doesn't believe in it nor she cares about them. She just want money and power that is all.

Posted by: tarikur | May 19, 2006 10:36 PM

I've heard Hisri Ali speak and when you hear her passion you know she is the genuine article. Islam in the horn of Africa religiously deprives women of any sexual pleasure whatsoever by surgically removing (cutting away with a knife) their sexual organs. Islam is unapologetic about its oppression of women. Who cares on what pretext Hirsi Ali was able to flee, who cares what lies she told? She woke people the hell up in Europe. How important is she when compares with those thousands upon thousands of women who routinely are violated to extreme extents by these barbarians who have abducted Islam as their vehicle of arrogant male assertive self righteousness? After shutting up your cartoonists, going after your zionists and slapping your women into submission you guys will find yourselves sitting in an airplane over Pennsylvania wondering whether your should sacrifice yourself in trying to stop these madmen from crashing you into the very center of your freedoms.

The Arab masses do not have free press, are not privvy to the debate and exchange we are used to in the west. The Danish cartoon rows showed how easily nationalist Arab regimes can sway their masses. Naive, uneducated and gullible young people blow themselves up for 74 virgins and a mule in the name of Islam every day around the globe, poisoned by the hatred and spite of a few envious corrupt decaying old men who in the name of their self righteous male-only creed feel justified in holding the world hostage. Day in day out oir oil addiction funds their bigotry and in the name of objectivity our media present their extremist minority opinion as a valuable alternative to what we in our fallible but democratic and free nations feel is the best course of action.

tarikur, absorb this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/11/international/middleeast/11sultan.html?ex=1299733200&en=513886e2ba5e106f&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Posted by: | May 20, 2006 12:15 AM

forgot to sign the above post of May 20, 2006 12:15 AM with my 'name'

Posted by: jvd70 | May 20, 2006 12:36 AM

tarikur: Islam is an evil doctrine no matter how you look at it. Go read your Koran and see for yourself...again, we don't need a liar or to tell us that, we saw it for ourselves post 9/11. Hirsi was brave enough to stand up and face the crowd and that is why she stands out as a brave young female. Like a typical Muslim you somehow manage to bring in Palestine. Wherever muslims immigrate they cause problems.

Posted by: Arif | May 20, 2006 07:57 AM

Perhaps Hirsi Ali was right that Islam is fundamentally incompatible with democracy.

If so the best policy for the Netherlands for economic and political stability is to deport all the muslims immediately, before they gain any more power or influence.

Those asylum/job-seekers can easily be replaced with the Czech or Polish who have an admirable work ethic and never stab film-makers in the streets over religious disagreements. Just as Americans or Canadians expatriates would be safer and more productive taxpayers working in the NL than these 3rd world uneducated islamic refugees.

So for all those NL muslims like Tarikur who are pleased to see Hirsi Ali deported I hope you're all deported from the NL next, and you can bet the USA is not going to grant even a tourist visa to Tarikur. US Homeland Security sees irritable muslims for what they are: a security risk.

Posted by: Pijp | May 20, 2006 11:26 AM

jvd70,

There is no proof of what Hirsi claimed. You claim that thousands and thousands of women are raped in Europe by Muslims (that you called Barbarians), can you post an independent source to back up your claim?

Hirsi is a liar. She lied about her past and claimed that she has been abused when she wasn't. She claimed she lived in Somalia when she spent the 12 years in Kenya, away from the civil war.

While what she talks about does happen and is a problem (women are raped in the USA too), she turned the issue into a venue of hatred, bigotry and intolerance.

You claim that the Arab masses do not have a free press. Well that is not true in the last 15 years. Al-Jazeera is as free as it can get. The debates on Al-Jazeera are live, uncensored and free of government control, including the authoritarian foreign policy of the US government (that killed 2 of its reporters, still hold 2 others ones with no trial, attempted to censor it through pressure on the Qatari gov).

Now Dr. Sultan like Hersi, is another islamphobic and bigoted individual. Both left Islam and hate the Islamic faith more than anything else.

Some of Sultan's claims are not even true. Jewish-Zionist militants did blow up the British Embassy in Rome (1946), blew up king David Hotel in Jerusalem (over 90 dead including jews) in 1946, assassinated many officials (UN, Britsh), and threw many bombs in markets, cafes and other civilian places in Palestine, and destroyed entire villages (the massacre of Deir Yassin).

Dr. Sultan is right that the Arab nations, unlike Israel, are still under-developed but again Nazi Germany was highly developed and modern.

Posted by: Karim | May 20, 2006 02:07 PM

Dear jvd70,
Either you a raciest, bringing hate toward group of people, or you got caught in anti-Islamic propaganda all over the web.

You said "Islam in the horn of Africa religiously deprives women of any sexual pleasure whatsoever by surgically removing (cutting away with a knife) their sexual organs."

Wrong, female circumcision is not from Islam, but mostly from African tradition. There is not hadith or Quranic verse that supports it. Hence, majority of the Islamic countries don't practise female circumcision. Female circumcision is banned in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan under Teleban. Know the facts.

"Islam is unapologetic about its oppression of women."

Thats according to you and all the Muslim basher but not according to the women who living the life, ask any Muslim in Western country. The real oppression of women and limits their freedom is the ban on women to wear hijab or scarf found in some part of Europe like Netherlands. Forcing a woman to wear a hijab is an oppression and forcing a women not to wear a hijab is also an oppression. Westerners can't get into their tiny head that women CHOICE to wear a hijab that they not forced in the false sense that they oppressed.

Dear Arif if thats you real name.
you said "Wherever muslims immigrate they cause problems."

Like the same problem that every people from third world cause. Saying immigrated "muslim" cause problem is ridicules since Muslim come from different countries and culture. Therefore they live in different communities. For example, many Muslim from South Asia live other South Asians who maybe be Hindus, Buddahism and etc not with Arab Muslims. Look at the USA over hot the debate of illegal immigrants. Almost all argument that is used for the Muslims in Europe is also used for Hispanic people in America like they don't integrate, they are drugs-dealer and criminals, they want American official language to be Spanish, they refuse learn English. Today America, check the news, passed American law calling English as national and common language that all immigrants has to learn to stay even guest workers, they didn't approve the American national anthem in Spanish because Westerners are afraid of losing political power and voice. They fear White people might be minority and their culture might replaced with another culture just as thinking of Hitler. Same with thinking of European over Muslim immigrants.

Pijp said "If so the best policy for the Netherlands for economic and political stability is to deport all the muslims immediately, before they gain any more power or influence."

You are right in the sense that Muslims-basher like you wants to destroy the Muslim voice that is found in Europe. So there is one voice, one-sided argument, propaganda against the Muslims, so there would be no Muslim to offer their point of view or correct a false view like female circumcision. That is the main why Muslim-Basher are so anti-muslim immigrant, so other European who never saw a Muslim can think Muslim as Monsters. In the recent ABC poll shows if a non-muslim know a Muslim in real life that they likely to have positive view of Muslims and Islam. Most Muslim basher come from people who never met a Muslim in real life but read a lot about them from a propaganda source.

Posted by: tarikur | May 20, 2006 04:53 PM

Karim, I didn't say anything that you claim I said. They are barbarians by virtue of how they treat women not because they are Muslem. I know plenty of Muslems who never have violated anyones personal space, all Muslems I personally know are good people and I'll not have you go on record saying I call all Muslems barbarians. How can you possibly read that from what I wrote?

Posted by: jvd70 | May 20, 2006 05:07 PM

Karim,

The barbarians are the "few envious corrupt decaying old men" who continue to hold the Muslem world hostage to their lust for power. How can they serve God with a knife to people's throat? How can they serve God when they accept dollars for oil from the same people they finance terror against? The barbarians are those who mutilate women, those who seek to kill their sisters and daughters to protect their arrogant ridiculous self righteous macho family honor. It is wrong, it is bad and by all definitions it is evil.

Every child of Abraham is supposed to know that murder is evil. No amount of excuses justifies barbarism. What do Muslems care what Jews or Christians do, what other people do does not make the decadent and corrupt macho elite any less evil.

If you think Hirsi Ali and Dr. Sultan are bigoted you haven't understood freedom and what it can do to a person's mind. Young children in Gaza grow up believing blowing up Jews lands them in heaven. But every child of Abraham is supposed to know murder is evil and will land them in hell. It's an evil lie created to make a gullible army of volunteers so that a bunch of greedy old cowards can continue to squeeze and depress and hold the Muslem world hostage. They feed the anger because anger keeps the people blinded from seeking the truth. Murder is evil. Calling the kettle black doesnt make it any less so.

Al Jazeera is a start, at one time the Arab world was the shining light of freedom, intellectual endeavour, science, art, thousands and 1001 nights of it. Europe was the continent of barbarians who were controlled by a few envious corrupt decaying old men in Rome. Things have changed since then. The Arabs are now reawakening, they might be shocked to discover how people in the west have for the most part been on their side.

Pijp,

There are 1 million Dutch Muslems. Most of them are at least 2nd generation and have no other nationality than the Dutch one. Where would you have them deported to? The idea is as absurd and racist as Ahmadinejad's idea to deport all Israeli Jews.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with Islam; Christians and Jews are also supposed to do horrible or demeaning things to idolators, women and homosexuals. Very few if any actually follow the bible to that extent and when they do they go to jail. In Islam there are only a fringe few that do follow the koran to such extremes and in doing so they tend to spoil things for the other 6 billion on the planet. Their governments and communities unfortunately are too cowed. Or they find that having these militants handy is too expedient to really nip them in the bud.


The Muslem world needs freedom, democracy and the rule of law to stop the terror, injustice and barbarism amongst and against them. It's possible, look at Turkey; not long ago it was the center of a proverbially corrupt and brutal empire. Now they are a democratic nation and when they have an earthquake Israeli volunteers hurry to help rescue Turks from the rubble. It's possible for people to live in peace, they just have to take their religions seriously.

Posted by: jvd70 | May 20, 2006 05:37 PM

Tarikur,

What is the Islamic legal ruling concerning female circumcision?
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543886
Interesting is too how not until 2005 prominent clerics in Somalia have issued a fatwa against female genital mutilation. Maybe Hirsi Ali's movie had some positive side effects?

You leave me little choice: I am either a racist or blinded by propaganda. I choose to be blinded by propaganda. I have in fact been free to choose what propaganda to be blinded by. Freedom is a great thing.

Do you think that Saudi women freely choose not to drive a car? Or that women like Hirsi Ali or Dr. Sultan choose to live in fear of their lives, or that women in Afghanistan choose to be stoned to death or wear the Burqa?

No, they have no such freedom of choice.

Posted by: jvd70 | May 20, 2006 06:12 PM

It is not a matter of propaganda. I was borne and grew up in an Arabic country and know what I am talking about. Yes, circumcision is not from Islam, but an African tradition, as tarikur said. Yet Islam is, as pijp believes, not necessarilly compatible with democracy. Islam could really make your daily life difficult.

As jvd70 said, the Arab masses do not have any free press. The example of Al-Jazeera mentioned by karim is not typical for the Arab world. Al-Jazeera is rather an artificial media entity that does not represent experienced Arab values of freedom and human dignity.

Nevertheless, Hirsi Ali, Magan ... etc, has lied and will always lie. She misused freedom in the Netherlands. I think she would get blue eyes and look more beautiful sitting beside George W. Bush!

Posted by: Analyser | May 20, 2006 06:29 PM

Dear jvd70,
As you see far-majority of Muslims countries and Muslim people don't practice female circumcision and also no real hadiths or Quranic verse in supporting it. Please don't use the word "muslims" to generalize the whole Muslims like you did before if talking about female circumcision say the people like Egyptian or Somali.

You said "Interesting is too how not until 2005 prominent clerics in Somalia have issued a fatwa against female genital mutilation. Maybe Hirsi Ali's movie had some positive side effects?"

Why do you always credit Hirsi Ali (morgan) or other like her for positive things happen in Islamic countries. The fact is their messages are total waste and hateful but they get so much credit for nothing. Her and other Islam critics only wants convince Westerners of the "evil" of Islam. The women issues is one way to vilify Islam. All the Islam critics writing and message are in foreign language like English that no Muslim's first language. The fact is less than 0.05% of the Muslims actually read it. Look at biggest Islamic critic, Faithfreedom, that they only have like 5 articles in Arabic and like 700 in English. The founder of Faithfreedom claims to be from Iran but there is article in Persian, just tiny web-page about Iran in English. The fact is they only wants to convince the Westernerss about Islam not the Muslims. There are so many Women right activists, I know some in personal life, that are fight for Women's right in Islamic countries but are not anti-Islamic. They should deserve the credit. The reason why Somali clerics issued a fatwa against female genital mutilation because some women right activist appointed that culture came from African tradition and has nothing to do with Islam. They write in the local language, they give lectures to women in local area and they are the one who should get credit.

You said "women in Afghanistan choose to be stoned to death or wear the Burqa?"

First of all, only women gets stone for adultery is another myth provided by your propaganda source. The fact is both men and women gets stone for adultery equally. Like I said before forcing a woman to wear a Burqa is an oppression and forcing a women not to wear a Burqa is also an oppression like what they doing in some part of Europe like Netherlands. If you are from Netherlands, please tell your government to stop oppressing Muslim women just like Taliban did. Women should have freedom of choice just like men.

Posted by: tarikur | May 20, 2006 11:30 PM

Tarikur, most people in the west only villify those who have taken Islam and turned it into an instrument that justifies terror, murder and intolerance. In the west people love the Alladin movie and all such postive stories be they Islamic or not. Turkey is a NATO member as well as a muslem country. Any muslem country can be an ally and friend of free people, not just Turkey.

The battle over Islam is fought in the west and mostly in english because we in the west pay for terror. If enough of us are outraged enough we might demand an end to oil shippings from the middle east so that we don't continue to fund Saudi-type mafia royalty, Iranian psychopaths and their terrorist cronies. Bin Laden wishes to get rid of the infidel regimes that control the Arab countries and holy places, very few people don't share that wish. Bin Laden is wrong in thinking anything is better than democracy. Read about Europe from 1914 to 1945 and you'll find that nothing beats democracy, Nothing beats freedom once you tasted it.

It is pointless to wage a propaganda war in the Muslem world because there is no free press. Those that control the media and the masses simply win by default. The war is in the west, over the hearts and minds of the Americans and Europeans and others who are free enough to make up their own minds.

Hisri Ali and Dr. Sultan are positive voices, they engender debate. Are you afraid of their voice? Do please feel free to engage them on substance, on what they say. Instead you say "their messages are total waste and hateful" period. Feel free to engage me as well on substance instead of trying to render my whole argument invalid by trying to semantically invalidate a single point I made. The Arab and Muslem people are most welcome to the free world. Japan and Germany now are free and part of a global free debate community, Arab and Muslem people would be so welcome. All they need to do is get rid of their dictators. Why would the USA liberate Europe in 1945 and occupy Iraq in 2003, maybe Iraq never expected to be liberated while Europe expected nothing less? The USA went in with 150.000 troops required to liberate Iraq, not with the 500.000 required to occupy it. France was liberated by the USA, France is a free nation now, terribly critical of the USA and yet it was liberated by the very same USA that tried to free Iraq. What is there not to understand about America's intentions? Why are people like Hirsi Ali and Dr. Wafa Sultan so villified when so clearly they strive for freedom for all muslems? They tasted freedom. nothing beats freedom once you have tasted it. Ask the French. Or Japanese, Or Germans. Or the Iraqis who tasted it for a few milliseconds before those bastards started to kill them like pigs. Those bastards agree only on one thing: democracy must fail in the mideast.

Posted by: jvd70 | May 23, 2006 10:59 PM

Tarikur, most people in the west only villify those who have taken Islam and turned it into an instrument that justifies terror, murder and intolerance. In the west people love the Alladin movie and all such postive stories be they Islamic or not. Turkey is a NATO member as well as a muslem country. Any muslem country can be an ally and friend of free people, not just Turkey.

The battle over Islam is fought in the west and mostly in english because we in the west pay for terror. If enough of us are outraged enough we might demand an end to oil shippings from the middle east so that we don't continue to fund Saudi-type mafia royalty, Iranian psychopaths and their terrorist cronies. Bin Laden wishes to get rid of the infidel regimes that control the Arab countries and holy places, very few people don't share that wish. Bin Laden is wrong in thinking anything is better than democracy. Read about Europe from 1914 to 1945 and you'll find that nothing beats democracy, Nothing beats freedom once you tasted it.

It is pointless to wage a propaganda war in the Muslem world because there is no free press. Those that control the media and the masses simply win by default. The war is in the west, over the hearts and minds of the Americans and Europeans and others who are free enough to make up their own minds.

Hisri Ali and Dr. Sultan are positive voices, they engender debate. Are you afraid of their voice? Do please feel free to engage them on substance, on what they say. Instead you say "their messages are total waste and hateful" period. Feel free to engage me as well on substance instead of trying to render my whole argument invalid by trying to semantically invalidate a single point I made. The Arab and Muslem people are most welcome to the free world. Japan and Germany now are free and part of a global free debate community, Arab and Muslem people would be so welcome. All they need to do is get rid of their dictators. Why would the USA liberate Europe in 1945 and occupy Iraq in 2003, maybe Iraq never expected to be liberated while Europe expected nothing less? The USA went in with 150.000 troops required to liberate Iraq, not with the 500.000 required to occupy it. France was liberated by the USA, France is a free nation now, terribly critical of the USA and yet it was liberated by the very same USA that tried to free Iraq. What is there not to understand about America's intentions? Why are people like Hirsi Ali and Dr. Wafa Sultan so villified when so clearly they strive for freedom for all muslems? They tasted freedom. nothing beats freedom once you have tasted it. Ask the French. Or Japanese, Or Germans. Or the Iraqis who tasted it for a few milliseconds before those bastards started to kill them like pigs. Those bastards agree only on one thing: democracy must fail in the mideast.

Posted by: jvd70 | May 23, 2006 10:59 PM

Dear jvd70, sorry for the late reply

You said "It is pointless to wage a propaganda war in the Muslem world because there is no free press."

Is the internet also controlled by propaganda Muslim government? Like I said. Look at the biggest critic of Islam site, Faithfreedom, that they only have like 5 articles in Arabic and like 1000 in English. The founder of Faithfreedom claims to be from Iran but there is article in Persian, just tiny web-page about Iran in English. The fact is they, Hirsi Ali and Dr. Wafa Sultan and others, only wants to convince the Westernerss about Islam not the Muslims. It is wrong to say entire Muslim world doesn't allow free press. Most Muslims countries have much as free press as the West and free to view any information on the web. The problem is small amount of countries that don't free press like Iran or Saudi Arabia are mentioned to generalize the whole Muslim world. Remember lots of Muslims are not in the MiddleEast. Why is it when anything do with Muslims and to vilify them, it makes world headline? For example, if Muslim terrorist kill 15 innocent people, it will make world headline but Christian terrorist group like Tripura Tiger Force in NorthEast India kill 15 innocent Hindus and they do regularly, it doesn't make the headline except for the local one.

You said "Do please feel free to engage them on substance, on what they say"

I agree with lot of their points such as freedom and democracy and women right should be in every Muslim country. The problem that I have is their anti-Islamic and their anti-Muslim message. They want to deport all the Muslims including the Muslim women who they say are oppressed in Muslim world. They don't want any Muslim to come to the West. Well, I live in West and I don't to leave. They want to rid of my religion and what I believe in. They support nuking Islamic countries, so they can kill my family. That's the problem I have.

You said "Bin Laden is wrong in thinking anything is better than democracy...Those bastards agree only on one thing: democracy must fail in the mideast."

This is another myth. The myth get repeated by politician and others to bring fear and hate. Terrorist don't have any problem with democracy and freedom, hence after Sharia law, they want democracy and freedom than secular dictatorship. Recruiting message for terrorist is never anti-democracy or anti-freedom message but they want to bring Sharia law. The main recruiting message and what they fighting for is the believe the West and American want to destroy Islam and impose Christianity on Muslim world. All the Muslims I know wants democracy and freedom in Islamic land instead of the dictatorship.

The mains reason why West vilify the Muslims, says things like Muslim fail to integrate, Muslim wants to take over the West, Muslims are criminal, Muslims want kill all the infidel and etc is because Western wants to preserve their culture and heritage and see the threat losing power in their country which is normal for all humans. The same arguments that are used for Muslim are used for the anti-illegal Hispanic immigrants in USA like they fail to integrate, they refuse to learn English, they are drug-dealers and criminals. The problem is not Muslim, terrorism, illegal immigrants or anything else, the problem is Western wants to preserve their culture like don't Spanish to be official language of USA. Same with the Muslims. They are also afraid they will lose their culture and religion and they want to preserve it. The terrorist are using this as their recruitment just like KKK use the same message also for their recruitment. You have understand this to understand wants really happening and the human mind.

Posted by: tarikur | May 27, 2006 10:24 PM

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