Calls for restraint sound reminiscent of the days prior to WWII when it was believed that appeasement of Hitler's ambitions would result in "peace in our time." All that did was embolden Hitler to take more and more.

If killing the enemy results in more enemy, then we will have to oblige them all with martyrdom.

The BS about the Palestinians wanting statehood is ridiculous. They have collected more money from the free world than Europe did under the Marshall Plan, and the only thing they have ever contributed to our language is "suicide bomber."

I am rooting for Israel because Israel is the only country that is standing up for what is right. God's wrath is being visted on the satanic elements of this world and it is just a matter of time before God prevails through His servant Israel.

God bless America and God bless Israel.

Words mean nothing, hezbolla only understands force. As for the islamist terrorist lovers in the middle east being hardened toward Israel's defense of their state, so what? They already hate Israel and want to destroy the state. It's about time Israel stood up for itself and destroyed hezbolla and other terrorists while the timing is on their side.

I'm hearing the term "World War III" more and more these days. This world-wide conflict with Islam sure walks like a duck and looks like a duck to me.

If this is indeed the beginning of World War III, let us be clear about our objective. Islam has started this fight, we must finish it. I have lost all faith in bringing democracy to the muslims in the belief that democracy breeds tolerance and goodwill. -cough- Hamas -cough- Hezbollah.

Perhaps our goal should be nothing less than the destruction of Islam as a religion. We could aggressively proselytize the muslims and convert them to some modern secular humanism belief system. We could smash Mecca and Medina. I agree with the sentiment that we need to win their hearts and minds- but I think that should include this strategy of ending Islam once and for all. Let's admit that it is a force for evil in this world and confront it.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." - (David Ben-Gurion, May 1948. From Ben-Gurion, a Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar)
It is obvious today that Ben Gourion's strategy which has been applied by Israel for decades in Gaza and Lebanon has failed, missiles are striking Haifa. Who in the right mind can believe that peace will raise from the slaughtering of 230 lebanese civilians ? Anyone remembers Vietnam, Afganistan, Irak ? There is no exemple of occupying forces winning in a asymetrical war no matter the horrors they are ready to commit. The West is proving that the extreme Islamists are right. It is just a matter of time we learn it the hard way.

The 'genius' Bush also calls the Israeli aggression against the Lebanese civilian population and the civilian infrastructure as an act of 'self-defence', I suppose like he is 'defending' the US in Iraq! According to him the capture of the Israeli soldiers by the resistance forces is the source of the problem, just like 9/11 being the point where the history of conflict began. Bush and the media-terrorists conveniently ignored the offer made by Hamas and Hizb-Ullah to exchange prisoners, and all this bloodshed could have been avoided, if that route was sought. Yet we have put up with Bush and the Zionists continuously uttering "peace", of course what they mean is "pieces" of Lebanese and Palestinian children!

I'm voting for Israel as well. They're tough people who are fighting for their right to exist in a part of the world where most of their neighbors hate them. We advise them to exercise restraint, but make no mistake we will support them to the bitter end. So listen up all you Jew haters, America can send bombs to Israel as fast as Israeli jets can drop them. But I guess if you're stupid enough to blow yourself up, what does that say about who you choose to anger?

I mean WOW. So lets destroy a religion, oblige them with martydom. Hoo boy.

Last I checked the muslims in Turkey seemed to have grip on democracy. Everyone understands both words and force.

But lets get back to the bigger picture rather than nonconstructive posts. What has not been discussed is the impact that Israel (and remember that's your tax dollars at work, the aircraft Israel is flying over Lebanon) attacking Shia has on the Shia population in Iraq. To understand just how very bad this is for the US interests in Iraq, you only need to hear Sadr's reaction.

The Isreali overreaction will lead to ugly and unforseen consequences.

Jean Moulin, the french "resistant" freedom fighter was called a terrorist by the Nazis occupying France. Israel has learnt the lesson and applies the German exemple.
Killing of civilians
prison and torture
land invasion
displacement of population
concept of a superior race
Europe was sleeping during the Nazi uprising. Today the history repeats itself.

Hey Marc, there's pieces of Lebanese and Palestinian children scattered all over the middle east simply because their father took the money & let some guy strap a bomb on his kid. Then he complains when the victims of his 'suicide bomber' child strikes back. Get a grip Marc.

Readers: Please note the fake Western-sounding names used by "Tony Best" and "Marc Amelot."

Some of the spelling errors and insider-only spelling ("Hizb-Ullah" anyone) suggest that we've got some undercover arabs in here.

Arabs: I have a question for you. Since the existance of some 6 million people in your neighborhood that you don't think belong there drive you to terrorism, how do you justify entering Western lands? There are some 6 million arabs in France alone. The only difference is that the Europeans and us Americans aren't savage barbarians who behead people and bear 13 children so it won't be too sad when we encourage some of them to blow themselves up.

Arabs: Give up terrorism.

The kidnapping of 2 soldiers causes Israel to go berserk and kill hundreds and cripple a nation. A simple trade of prisoners for 2 soldiers sounds like a civilized approach. Obviously, Israel had another agenda and refuses to act like a civilized nation. Just meditate on the children in the hospitals. SAD!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice try, "Tony Best," but your little quote "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population" is as false as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Google it. Which I'm sure is on your nightstand, next to Mein Kampf.

Speaking of Mein Kampf, I'm always amused (in a black comedy sort of way) that this book is a bestseller in the arab world. Do the arabs really think that if they were in Germany during the nazi days that they wouldn't have problems? It's insanity. Every once in a while a swastika gets painted on a mosque and the muslims cry "persecuted minority." It is the biggest instance of hypocracy you will ever see.

"Hezbollah's militia currently has about 500 to 600 full-time fighters"
How many have been killed so far ? 20 ? 30 ?
So to kill 20 Hezbollah fighters it took Israel to slaughter 250 innocent civilians. In order to exterminate all of them (that's the plan) we can expect the death of more or less 7,500 innocent women and children ?
Let's count them to see when this will end !!
Pure madness.

Hey Jon M, no I am not an Arab but (you gonna like it) a french man. (I can see you getting all excited).
Thanks anyway for you racist comment about Arabs not welcome to post here, unless they hide their names.
You proved my point.

French, arab, what's the difference these days? Nice soccer team you've got there.

Zidane sucks.

Hey Marc, I guess you never learned English grammar where you came from. (Thanks anyway for you racist comment) No answer to my comment, huh? Pretty hard to defend a father watching his own flesh & blood blow themselves up for a few bucks. Once again Marc, you gotta get a grip.

Hey Rich.
If you believe that the 250 Lebanese civilans killed were suicide bombers, switch to Fox news.

Uh Marc, we were talking about "pieces" of Lebanese and Palestinian children, remember?

I can never understand why the followers of the "Prince of Peace" are such war-mongers.

Rich, I will try to educate you. You seem to be a nice guy. Please rent a movie called "Paradise Now". I suppose you are open minded enough to do so, because I find rather primitive you vision of the problem.
Please excuse my English grammar. When your French will be as good as my English, get back to me.

We've all been murdering our fellow man 'in the name of God' as long as long as we've been crawling around on this planet.

No thanks Marc, never wanted to go there or learn the lingo. But maybe I'll check out the dvd @ my local Blockbuster. Then I won't be primitive.

Apparently the same geniuses that advised the Bush administration are advising Israel. The best way to fight terrorism isn't to indiscriminantly drop bombs "in the general vicinity." That will only create more terrorists than you kill.

Imagine losing a father or a brother or a friend to one of those "peace bombs" that Israel drops. Would that make you love Israel and hate your neighbor, Hizbullah? Not likely.

I'm very saddened to see the racist comments in print regarding muslims and arabs. Eradicating Islam sounds very similar to the rhetoric of Hitler and Judaism. And the way people are blanketing all arabs under one stereotype reminds me of the way Asians were treated in the US during WWII. If you took the time to truly know the religion and culture you would soon understand that it is poverty, lack of educational opportunities and lack of world-wide efforts that is causing terrorism. It is not a product of the arab/muslim culture.

The best way to defeat Hizbullah ?

Give the Palestinians, color TV, satelite dishes, internet access, schools, hospital, jobs, access to free press ....
Hizbullah will vanish. Cheaper than bombs.

tReligion is the source of most evil. If there is a God watching his creations, and I believe there is, He must also hate religion. It has been the main source of murder, torture and suffering for the last 5000 years. Once you say "I know what God wants, and you don't" anything can be justified.

Ok...Israel wants to defeat hezbollah, fine...but to do it all the way. Send boots in Lebanon like Sharon the butcher did in 82! If I remember well it turned out pretty well... doesn't the 82 invasion gave birth to Hezbollah in the first place?
The Israelis should show some cojones and invade Lebanon, not only the south but all Lebanon, and then try to rout out the whole hezbollah militia. I wish Israel good luck. Crippling Lebanon, destroying its whole infrastructure and displacing half a milion people that Israel has been doing cowardly since a week won't achieve anything, and I can bet that hezbollah will still be there and will even be stronger.
Furthermore, as a result of this whole mess, try now to bring back Iran to the negotiating table regarding its nuclear enrichment...So now you have nuclear Iran knocking at your door...fantastic!
Last year USA and France missed a good opportunity to stabilize the region. They should have followed, after getting Syria out of Lebanon, by helping the lebanese army to disarm hezbollah...
...and my advice to Lebanon, get a f..cking good army in the future so this will not happen a third time...
BTW, I am no Jew hater (neither a mulsim one), I just have the right to disagree with Israel policies...

JonM.

Ever heard of Timothy McVeigh?

I always love this talk about how it's "poverty" which is responsible for terroristm and how if we were to "Give the Palestinians, color TV, satelite dishes, internet access, schools, hospital, jobs, access to free press ....Hizbullah will vanish."
I've got news for you, the Palestinians have access to these things, but it doesnt help. If you havent noticed, Al Jazeera (tv, satellite dishes) is a huge hit in the arab world, most of these terror groups have web sites (internet access), and we occasioanlly hear about Israel accidentally bombing a school, hospital, etc.
Let us not forget that the terrorists who committed the bombings in London last year were mostly MIDDLE CLASS BRITISH CITIZENS (as in, not poor). Please explain how this fits into your theory.

Why is there only ever outrage at the actions of the Israelis? Where is the outrage when a Hamas terrorist blows up innocent Israelis? Where is the outrage at Hizbullah firing off hundreds of rockets, day in day out at Israel without any provocation? Where is the outrage when Hamas and Hizbullah, both representatives of the own governments make their way into sovereign (and undisputed) Israeli territory to kidnap and murder Israeli soldiers and civilians? Where is the outrage there? Or is it that Jewish blood is somehow worth less?

Israel has shown nothing but restraint under the circumstances. It has used all its efforts, including putting the lives of its own soldiers at risk, so as to avoid and minimise civilian casualties on the other side. This is contrasted to their attackers, who measure success by the number of innocent civilians they are able to murder and maim.

Israel has been left with no choice but to defend itself. What many fail to recognise is that Israel's threat is an existential one. It is faced with neighbours who care not about the wellbeing of their own people, but more about wiping Israel off the map. As Golda Meir once said, "there will only be peace in the middle-east once the Arabs learn to love their children more than they hate the Israelis."

It is to Israel that we should be offering all our support and resources, while only condemnation and harsh rebuke to its attackers.

One more thing. To all of you people critical of the current Israeli policy, what would YOU do? You bemoan the loss of innocent Lebanese lives, yet what is your alternative?
Don't tell me "cease-fire and prisoner exchange." Last time Israel conducted a prisoner exchange with Hezbollah the trade was a couple live Israelis and a couple dead bodies for some 500 terrorists. No self-respecting country in the world would ever show such misplaced goodwill towards enemied pledged to destroy it. If you really think that a "prisoner exhange" with Hezbollag is an equitable propostion, your judgement is highly suspect.

Let Israel have a piece of land in Germany or Europe. See if the Europeans can live with them!

To whoever wrote the comment about stereotyping Muslims:
Racism and stereotyping are horrible, but I don't think you can blame the barbaric behavior of radical Islamic fundamentalists around the world on "poverty, lack of educational opportunities and lack of world-wide efforts." Please tell me why the radical fundamentalists are so violent towards other people. Terrible things have happened in the Middle East, in India, in the U.S., etc. I don't believe it's due to poverty. There's a basic lack of respect for the value of human life. Why is that?

Also, there are a number of incredibly wealthy Arab nations who could easily offer money to help with educational opportunities and the things you listed. Why aren't they helping their Muslim brethren?

Hmmmm, not many people here seem to be conversant in military tactics or strategy. Israel is not purposefully bombing Lebanese civilians and/or the Lebanese Govt. property. If they were there would be many more dead by now and the Lebanese government would virtually cease to exist. This, however, is not in their interests.

They are attempting to blockade all logistical avenues for resupply to Hezbollah, cut off all avenue for escape, and play whack-a-mole with the Katayusha rocket launchers. If you want to blame anyone for the civilian deaths lay it at the doorstep of Hezbollah itself.

They, like many other irregular and guerilla forces throughout history(i.e. Vietcong, Taliban, Al-Qaeda, etc.), are co-mingling their materiel and troops in residential neighborhoods and trying to use the civilian population as human shields and camoflauge.

In my opinion, however savage war may be, it is a necessary evil. Without conflict there is no resolution. Without destruction there is no creation. The greatest problem in the Middle East has been the interjection of outside parties to create an artificial peace neither side really wants.

I think it best to let a conflict come to finality so that the everyone else can move on. Total war temporarily creates peace, a simple lesson from WWII. Utter exhaustion, the desire for one's safety, and the realization of imminent and total defeat by one side or the other creates the optimum conditions for suing for peace. Armistices, cease-fires, and the like simply postpone the day of reckoning further into the future.

Jon M and Rich Peterson,

Hatemongers of the same coin.

Israel kills with impunity and has a blank check on state terror; yet I see you "defending Israel."

Israel, the nuke-laden middle Eastern juggernauth, don't need you quasi-wave the Israeli flag, American Zionists to do its defending...or should I say offending!

Its knows how to do morally blackmail the average Americans with its AIPAC and United Jewish Committee (AJC), and Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations (CPMJO) well enough esp. about the claptrap about "the Holocaust suffered by European Jewry."

Listen Jon, this is the 21st Century and the oppressed have morphed to become the most vicious oppressors with irregard to international law and military standards.

It responds to 2 military POW's (not kidnappers) with a full invasion and aeral bombings of a sovereign nation. If that's not racist I don't know what is...

And the defeaning silence of the Bush administration with the gutless effort to stand up for American interests over Israel's yet again proves, the blatantly one-sided biased foreign policy, we have on our hands.

And Peterson,

Just to get an ounce worth of the venom you call for, maybe someone should call for the bombing of your city starting with your house, family, and children. Pretty upsetting thought isn't it? Well that's the horror of state terroristic tactics employed by your favorite state of Israel with American made bombs and weapons. And when there is another barrakcs bombings like in '82 in response to another Israeli invasion and massacre of 2,000 Palestinian refugees in slums; don't wonder why that happened!!!!!

So when terrorists from the Middle East do strike again, don't scratch your head and wonder why they choose "poor us" as a target... you can ask your pro-Israeli politicians and spineless appeasers of Israel the military Goliath for that answer!

There is no double standard. The numbers don't add up to Israeli sympathy; the Israelis kill 3 Palestinians for every one Israeli killed in a "horrific" bus bombing... nevermind that the victims of bus bombings are as uncaring of the cause of death as any recipient of an Israeli rocket. The insane double standard is Israeli apologists who insist that "acts of terror trump all other acts in evilness" without any concept of "measured response".

So you play a boring "no moral equivalency" argument by pointing out how much worse a terrorist is than a Government employee firing a rocket... as if the victims could care.

In any event, since Hezbollah is no friend of this American, I wish Israeli the best of luck; but they're going to win that fight without my vote for financial support so long as America is running *merely* 300 billion dollar deficits. And you won't get my supportive vote for pro-Israeli UN reps either, or pro-Israeli federal reps either since the common denominator in every American-directed terrorist attack is Israeli-American complicity.

Best wishes, but I want my 3 billion a year in tax dollars back immediately.

To those of you who actually believe that Israel's reaction is solely in response to the kidnapping of its soldiers... you really must educate yourselves. For decades, Israel has been under attack by all sorts of radical groups solely because it exists. These idiots refuse to accept that Israel has a right to exist and have wasted their energy on its destruction instead of actually helping their own people to get out of their terrible conditions. The real issue here is how much these terrorists hate Israelis/Jews and anything other than that is propoganda or sugar-coating the truth.

In case you have never read an objective history book, Judaism predated both Christianity and Islam. There were always large numbers of Jewish people in the region we now call Israel. Those were the Jews who managed to survive despotic rulers over the centuries or those who returned after being treated horribly in other countries. No other group of people actually laid claim to that land prior to the formation of the state of Israel. To say that Israelis are occupying land that doesn't belong to them is a fallacy.

Israel has every right to defend its land and especially its citizens from attacks by people hell-bent on destroying them. Wouldn't you expect the same from the government of your country? In addition, it seems that the only thing the Arabs understand is strength. Diplomacy doesn't seem to work; they still behead their prisoners. How do you even attempt to negotiate with people who have so little regard for human life?

Israel needs to do what it needs to do, and sending the terrorists scurrying like the rats that they are is a necessity.

"So when terrorists from the Middle East do strike again, don't scratch your head and wonder why they choose "poor us" as a target... you can ask your pro-Israeli politicians and spineless appeasers of Israel the military Goliath for that answer!"
Wow, Nazim. If I may say so, that's really messed up. It's sounds as if you're saying that our support of Israel gives muslim terrorists a legitemate reason to kill innocent Americans. That's way off the deep end.

Look, defending Israel is not enough. Those country who pro-Israel, can give a piece of land & independence to Israel. Live side by side and have fun. Arabs have done their part. Fair & square.

Nazim,

POWs?????? Uhmm, without a formal declaration of war there can be no Prisoners of WAR, only extra-legal abductions, disappearances, and kidnapping. If you argue there is an existing formal declaration of war then both sides are free to do as they see fit. However, if so, there should be no whining about the consequences. War is horrible and cruel and not a path to be blindly trod down upon.

At the end of the day, who cares who started what. It is who ends it that matters. Middle Eastern (i.e. Arab AND Jewish) hipocrisy always has amazed me.

To Matt:
"Let Israel have a piece of land in Germany or Europe. See if the Europeans can live with them!"
Obviously, you missed a huge chapter that took place in our last century. That would be the part about WWII and the Holocaust. Apparently, many Europeans couldn't live with them, so they murdered 6 million people. Maybe you should study history and lift youself out of your ignorance.

I am very hopeful that Israel will penetrate its enemy and deal a severe blow to Hizbollah and Hamas. It is imperative that they crush the Iranian satellites. Sadly, it may be a few years more until the head of the snake, (Iran), is met head on, with all the worlds military might. It is only a matter of time. Militant Islam will gain no traction when it is put to a vote by civilized peoples from around the world. Animals that desire death over life, at the expense of the common man, will perish.

Someone asked, "Where is the outrage when Hamas and Hizbullah, both representatives of the own governments make their way into sovereign (and undisputed) Israeli territory to kidnap and murder Israeli soldiers and civilians? Where is the outrage there? Or is it that Jewish blood is somehow worth less?"

The outrage is the systematic and disproportoinate warfare and the daily bombings of an entire nation of Lebanon (where 270 CIVILIANS have been killed compared to 27 on the Israeli side) by the racist, arrogant gov't of Israel.

You talk about "kidnapping" Israeli civilians. First of all, Hezbollah didn't capture "civilians" and second of all its called CAPTURING when soldiers are taken in a time of war (as war Israel has always been against with Hezbollah). Let's not forget Hezbollah only came into being with Israeli invasion of Lebanon led under the comatose barbarian Ariel "the Butcher" Sharon, responsible for the Sabra and Shatilla massacre. (For those unfamiliar with it, google it up).

Ah talking about kidnapping. Its a tactic Israel is all too familiar with. I ask where is the outrage when Israel regularly KIDNAPPS Political prisoners as they did in Lebanon during middle of the night and has kept them in Israeli jails for years and years, many of whom are women?

Where is the OUTRAGE when fully one-third of the Palestinian DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATURE was KIDNAPPED by Israeli military thugs against the assault againt their Ramallah Parliament? Oh, let me guess, in Bush's word "they were defending themselves, right?" And on yea, let me guess, "Iran and Syria" were helping those legitimate Palestinian lawmakers of Hamas enact anti-Israeli laws too? And lets not forget before the capture, Israel tried to starve the entire Palestinian populace and leading a campaign (with Condi Rice's and Dick Cheney's help) to blockade them until they regreat voting for and excercising their DEMOCRATIC RIGHT of choosing a corrupt-free government of Hamas instead of Fatah.

As for Jewish blood being less? I see that it is just the opposite. For 3 Israeli SOLIERS, NOT CIVILIANS, we see MILITARY bombardment by American F-16 jets, families of 9 killed and decapitated, an entire nation blockaded via Air, land, and naval sea by Israeli warships?

And we have people wondering about random acts of terrorism? If that's not Propaganda, I don't know what is. The root cause of terrorism is precisely the heavy-handed use of Israel warmachine, fully bankrolled by my government, a shameful and obvious partial observer trying to be an "impartial broker" of Mid-East peace.

State terrorism is 1,000X worse than some organizational terrorism because 1) they should know better 2) give the excuse of "defending itself" and have gov't officials parade those talking points on the world media PR; a luxury terrorist organizations don't have with offical "gov't spokesman" 3) State terrorism is done with efficiency and fully planned backing of a "legtimate" nation state unlike illegitimate terrorist groups.

Israel could have defeated Hezbollah, by returning to legality and helping to strengthen its secular democratic rivals in Lebanon. Instead, it has played right into Hezbollah's hands with its barbaric and murderous campaign against Lebanese civilians. I once respected and admired Israel but if this is what Israel stands for, then any self-respecting Lebanese would have to consider joining Hezbollah. With its crimes hundreds of innocent civilians, Israel has just created a whole new generation of recruits for it and other militant groups.

The phrase, I think, is most aptly applied to the Israelis, not the Palestinians: The Israelis never miss a chance to miss a chance.

Dearest Stephanie:

"Let Israel have a piece of land in Germany or Europe. See if the Europeans can live with them!"

They can't and that's why they are content to have their moral blackspot for their Genocide against Jews, translate into their support for Israel carved out of Arab land, so that becomes the problem of Palestinians and not Germans, French, Italians, and even Americans.

As the Iranian President rightfully asserts, "Why should the Palestinian people suffer for the crimes of Europeans?" Israel's creation was debated by orthodox Jews themselves who claim it is in violation of God's command because the Messiah hasn't come and established it yet...I guess those rabbis are "anti-Semitic" too as critics of Israel are dubbed by the pro-Israel PR machine.

Organizational terror is much worse than state violence for a number of reasons:

1. Who do you make peace with when there is no one that represents all factions of the orgainization?

2. When peace is made with an organization, disaffected members can easily start a new one and continue fighting, see for example REAL IRA.

3. States usually play by an established set of understood methodologies.

4. States are responsible for their citizenry, organizations are only responsible to their members, not the wider society.

5. Organizations are not a member of international institutions and/or treaties and thus there are no restrainyts placed upon them.

You warmongers never learn. Bush, Olmert, Hamas, Hezbollah, it's all the same. You give yourself the right to kill innocent human beings. Bush and Olmert think they're cool, cause they don't deliberately kill innocent people. You think innocent people would care whether they were killed or otherwise devastated deliberately or not? What rogue nations America and Israel have become, incapable of feeling anyone's pain but their own.

To Response to AO:
What are you talking about? The soldiers were KIDNAPPED within their own country. That is an act of war. Israel is not at war with Hezbollah. It's the other way around considering Hezbollah doesn't believe in Israel's right to exist. I suppose you think that Hezbollah's continual firing of rockets into civilian areas of Israel (which occurred regularly before this past week's incidents) is acceptable.

The entire nation of Lebanon is not being bombed. The Israelis are targeting areas where they can destroy Hezbollah strongholds. What other country drops pamphlets urging civilians to vacate an area? You should wish that the militaries of other countries in that area of the world are so concerned with the deaths of innocent people. But how do you even fathom the thinking of the barbarians who blow themselves up on buses, killing innocent people? Or those who fly planes into buildings? Are you really able to support these people?

You have posted a lot of inaccurate information, and your rantings make you appear very unbelivable. You really ought to educate yourself about the truth behind what happens in that area of the world so you don't seem to ignorant.

"The outrage is the systematic and disproportoinate warfare and the daily bombings of an entire nation of Lebanon (where 270 CIVILIANS have been killed compared to 27 on the Israeli side) by the racist, arrogant gov't of Israel."
I still dont get it. For one, if you havent noticed, Hezbollah is ALSO "bombing...and entire nation" (the whole northern part of Israel). And they're doing it in a much less discriminatory manner. Hezbollah missiles (unlike the precision munitions of Israel) are innacurate, and only good for hitting large population centers - which is all Hezbollah needs them for. If you consider the sheer number of Israeli missiles fired so far (the latest figure I read was 2,000 + sorties), the fact that only a couple hundred civilians have been killed is quite low. Add to this fact that many Hezbollah targets are intentionally placed in residential areas, and it is neat miraculous.
I especially love all the talk about numbers. Ignorant people assume that since Israel usually ends up killing more of the enemy, they must be the bad guys. What a preposterour notion. The Japanese killed a few thousand Americans in their treacherous attack on Pearl Harbor. In the ensuing war, we killed a couple million Japanse. We were most certainly in the right in that situation.

Hmmm, why is that Stephanie? I wonder, who can live with them? What's wrong with them? Are they being so cute? Was Hitler jealous? Pharaoh during Moses was envy of them? Jesus was dumped by them? Hey, the Jews must be so special coz the history of human kind has been filled by them.

Matt K.,

Who "carved out of Arab land" for Israel? Are you saying that the Jewish people never had any claim to the land in that region? That the so-called Palestinians (a "nation" that didn't exist before 1948) had a territorial claim to that land?

Israel was not created from Arab land nor was it created solely because of European guilt. Read some history and educate yourself.

You lose complete credibility when you start quoting the Iranian madman leader. He is a certifiable lunatic who denies that the Holocaust even took place. And frankly, why does he care if Israel exists anyway.

Matt K.,

You know Stephanie is right about the fact that the land was left fallow and unproductive until the Israelis settled it.
Only when it was productive and of value did the Arabs give two stones about it. Until then it was salt and desert with a few date farms and semi-nomadic tribesmen.

Keep quoting the Iranian President. I'm sure that will work out for you as he is sooo full of logic and, of course, would be a completely unbiased person in this situation. Sheesh...

Also, FYI there are more Jews in the US than anywhere else in the world except for Israel (US has almost a third of the worldwide Jewish population), so uh, I guess we already got the " moral blackspot" or whatever your incoherent rambling calls it. Get a grip.

Matt K. --

You come across as a raving anti-Semite, and it's impossible to have a reasonable and intelligent debate with someone who is so unevolved. Good luck to you.

is 1559 the first un resolution relevant to this conflict? could some of the zionists out there please justify the continued occupation of the palestinian territories and lording over the palestinian people.

word of caution, its just a matter of time before the american people demand justice for the palestinian people.

To Stephanie:-
"Obviously, you missed a huge chapter that took place in our last century. That would be the part about WWII and the Holocaust. Apparently, many Europeans couldn't live with them, so they murdered 6 million people. Maybe you should study history and lift youself out of your ignorance.
"
So thats why all the Jewish people forcibly evicted all the palestinains from there land because they thought having suffered at the hands of the Nazis gave them the right to inflict harm on others."
Does that make sense to anyone...?
I would really like to hear whats the justification for forcibly taking land from the palestinians. Israel continues to occupy land and refuses the right of refugees to come back to there homes.
BTW muslims dont hate jews( as happened in europe ). Its just that when you take land from people evict from there homes and occupy them for thirty years people do tend to retalliate.
Having said that when Israel started towards peace muslims should also have reciprocated.
So yes mistakes have been made on both sides.

Why is the United States the only country to fully support and back Israel?

The answer lies right at home. Our politicians are cowards who kowtow to two powerful lobby groups: pro-Israeli Jews and Soutern Baptist Evangelical Protestants.

The Jews form only 2% of the population, yet represent the Congress disproportionately by 15% (that's by 7 times) and by 9 to 1 margin have a heavy pro-Israeli tilt.

And the Zionist Evangelicals and their neoconservative ilk like Newt Gingrich, Franklin Graham, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Sean Hannity, druggie Limbaugh are also heavily pro-Israeli. No wonder they call for a world war and bash France. Their pathological allegiance to Israel with complete disregard to American safety and interests throughout the world borders on open treason.

Citizenship is not enough. Anybody can live in anybody's country granted he has a citizenship. Give them the land & independence. Obviously they want one. Fair & square

"Hmmm, why is that Stephanie? I wonder, who can live with them? What's wrong with them? Are they being so cute? Was Hitler jealous? Pharaoh during Moses was envy of them? Jesus was dumped by them? Hey, the Jews must be so special coz the history of human kind has been filled by them."

Matt,

Please go back to your cave. Suggesting that Hitler had a reasonable cause for the things he did is offensive not only to Jewish people, but also the Roma, Poles, Russians, and all the Allied soldiers, including my grandfather, who gave their lives so you could still be here and not be saluting the swastika. I am not Jewish, but a student of history and the reason why they were traeted so horribly was that they were often more wealthy and educated than the populations they lived among. Greed and envy by others, then, as now, are the main cause of their suffering.

I wouldn't describe this as war, but looting of another sovereign state. Hezbollah is only able to fire few rockets to some states in the north of Israel but Israel is bombing all over Lebanon, deliberately targetting Lebanese infrastructure. By supporting these sorts of atrocities US could be better named as a supporter of Israeli terrorism just like Iran and Syria.

To PeaceForALL:

Please tell me what you're talking about when you say "all the Jewish people forcibly evicted all the palestinains from there land because they thought having suffered at the hands of the Nazis gave them the right to inflict harm on others."

First of all, "all the Jewish people" doesn't make sense. Are you referring to the Jewish people who lived in that region or to all the Jews in the world? I was under the impression that the British were instrumental in declaring the borders for present-day Israel.

Second, when were the Palestinians forcibly removed from land that they never actually owned? Did Israel give up the Gaza Strip not too long ago only to have rockets fired into Israel proper for the past several months? Hmmm....

"Its just that when you take land from people evict from there homes and occupy them for thirty years people do tend to retalliate." Are you saying there's a justification for suicide bombings, stabbings and kiling innocent people? There is absolutely NO justification for retaliation in that manner. How about if the Palestinians actually learn the value of human life?

Golda Meir once said something like, "When the Arabs love their children more than they hate Jews, there will be peace." Teach that to the mothers who are so proud of their children who are raised to blow themselves into pieces in order to kill innocent people. Is that what brings about peace?

Let's be brually honest here. The whole issue here is not due to some small areas of land under dispute. The bigger issue is that Israel exists at all. That Israel thrives in an area that was once almost uninhabitable. That Israel has made huge advancements in medicine, in science, in the high-tech industries and in the arts. All done without a drop of oil money.

Please do yourself a favor and READ SOME HISTORY!!!

Brett:

"Looting a sovereign state???"

"Hezbollah is only able to fire few rockets to some states in the north of Israel but Israel is bombing all over Lebanon, deliberately targetting Lebanese infrastructure."

What are you talking about? Israel is not bombing all over Lebanon. A "few rockets?" Try hundreds! Rockets kill people, you know. The problem is that the rockets they are using are highly inaccurate, which is the only reason there haven't been more Israeli deaths. Syria has been sending more ammunition, rockets and weaponry to Hezbollah all along. The playing field is more level than you think.

Calling Israelis terrorists is laughable and shows your complete ignorance of the dire situation that is occurring.

Israeli is defending its citizens, its land and ultimately, its right to exist, against barbaric people who have no repsect for the value of human life.

To Stephanie
You are correct there is no justification for suicide bombings ,killings etc...
But is there any justification for the continued occupation of west bank and Gaza and the refusal of Palestinians to return to there homes.
Any justification settlements being built in West bank on Palestinian land which is without any dispute is Palestinian Land .
and Yes I have much respect for Israeli nation the way they built the nation having built from barren land and the way they have progressed in so little time.

PeaceForAll:

Gaza is not occupied! Israel pulled out of there quite awhile ago. If Hamas hadn't kidnapped one of Israel's soldiers, Israel wouldn't be there. You can't just let a radical group of people kidnap someone at random and get away with it. If it works once, they'll do it again.

Hannity n Colmes, it seems like you blame pretty much half of the US population for America's support of Israel ("pro-Israeli Jews and Soutern Baptist Evangelical Protestants," "the Zionist Evangelicals and their neoconservative ilk," "Newt Gingrich, Franklin Graham, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Sean Hannity, druggie Limbaugh").
And what American interests are you speaking of? Surely it's in the US interest to support the only true democracy in the region (anyone who honestly thinks that Egypt, Syria, etc. are true democracies need to have their heads examined). I have news for you. If it wasn't for the Arab states' economic leverage (read: oil), the US stance would most likely be even more pro-Israel. You have to ask yourself if it's really in the long-term interests of the US to be close with the backward Arab nations who consistently funnel oil money to finance worldwide terror networks, and whose only saving grace is a natural resource which is being rapidly consumed and for which we are (thankfully) starting to find alternatives for.

Olney from MD said:

Organizational terrorism much worse than state terrorism.

1) Who do you make peace with when there is no one that represents all factions of the orgainization?

Not true, organization means there is a collective standards, principles, goals that hold that organization together. Those who share those views and have a leader(s) who are representative of the group is whom you talk you; just like not everyone agrees with policies of warmonger, profanity-mouthed Bush but agrees he makes or breaks deals (sadly) on behalf of all Americans.

2. When peace is made with an organization, disaffected members can easily start a new one and continue fighting, see for example REAL IRA.

Same thing with a country. Disaffected members can always secede and start their own agenda. Like the anti-abolishinists states seceding and rebelling against banning slavery.

3. States usually play by an established set of understood methodologies.
4. States are responsible for their citizenry, organizations are only responsible to their members, not the wider society.

Again NOT TRUE. Israel hasn't played with an "established set of understood methodologies." It is ruthless, vicious (as the movie Munich can attest), and uses fear and overwhelming military force against its neigbhors to set the status quo. And that is the mother of all ironies, a state is supposed to be a "rational" entity, not a barbaric, war-first ask question later entity. Imagine if Lebanon responded to Israeli barrage with US supplied bombs and blockade of Israeli ports and land? We would be drowned in cries of "anti-Semitism," and a "new Hitler" by now.
Hezbollah is part of the state in Lebanon and that is what irks Israeli officials. It is not only an organization, it is Lebanese government itself. But since the Lebanese gov't doesn't have the capacity or wherewithall to militarily respond to Israeli invasion, Hezbollah (a rag-tag group armed with Katshuyas) does. Therefore it has gained legitimacy and widespread popular appeal for its representation of kicking out Israel from its territory.

5. Organizations are not a member of international institutions and/or treaties and thus there are no restraints placed upon them.

Right. My point exactly. Whereas states have restrictions and must abide by international law. Whereas Israel openly flouts and is in violation of 61 binding UN Resolutions. We invaded Iraq on the pretext it was a rogue country in violation of 16 UN Resolutions. What about having the courage to do the same with Israel? Or is Israel above the law, as it consistently proves with its behavior it is?

Shegay,

Don't hold your breath. Israel matters far more than anyone else in the region for the United States due to our military alliances, trade, and shared Western backgrounds.

Hannity n Colmes,

Have you ever been outside our borders? I grew up my entire life overseas in Asia, the Middle East, and Latin America. I encourage you to go to the Middle East and try to become "friends" with your average man in the street. Good luck! BTW since when was political power in any country undirected by money, power, and self-interest. When you find an example get back to me. Idealists drive me nuts!!!

If all you Israeli haters out there really want to beef about the origins of the state, might I suggest the British as a suitable target for your rhetorical aggression. After all, is was they who created the Jewish state in the Levant and it was for the advancement of their own interests not as a favor to the Jewish people. (Like anyone would elect to start a new country in a hot desert with little to no water.)

Also, the moment the British declared it so the Arabs around them attacked and attempted to annihilate them. Way to get to know your neighbor, huh? I believe, " Could I borrow a cup of sugar?" would have been a better idea.

Lastly,

People. Just because the US sells arms to Israel does not make us responsible for their use of them. We sell arms to LOTS of countries around the world. It is a way of rewarding friends for their cooperation.

The Russians sold arms to Iraq, Iran, Syria, Eqypt, Vietnam, China, etc. but do you hear us blaming them when those countries use them?? We may not like it but we hold the owners responsible not the manufacturers. Think logically not emotionally. It's a business pure and simple.

Olney, MD--

Thanks for your intelligence and insight on this site. Wish there were more people like you commenting!

Stephaine, "Gaza is not occupied! Israel pulled out of there quite awhile ago."

Another Israeli talking point. Israeli troops regularly enter and exit Gaza on the whim. The roads are still blockaded, military checkpoints are still awash, starvation and blockade of Gazans is relentless since the ascent to power of Hamas; and you say Gaza is not occupied? It might be seem so militarily but economically, politically, humanitarian-wise it has always been occupied. Just ask the farmer whose Olive tree groves was stolen to create a 'buffer zone,' just as Golan and Sheeba farms were in the north?

Jon M,

So it's the final solution for Islam and any Arab, persian, African, Chinese, Indian, Southeast Asians, American or anyone else for that matter that does not renounce it.

Let me ask, do you want to go the spanish inquisition route there or do you want to skip over the attempts to convert them to whatever the hell type of religion you follow that condones such behavior and just kill them outright. (I'm sure religion is a really good religion despite that little failing)

Needless to say , you are a moron. Take your WWIII and and war against the evil Muslims and try to sell it to fox news or how about the world wrestling federation, an organization that has a great deal more credibility than you do.

I know the world can be confusing place and sometimes fantasies about just blowing up all of your magined enemies can help relieve certain tensions. But cultured people engage in that type of behavior in the privacy of their own bedrooms or bathrooms, and not in the presence of other people capable of actually understanding a few things about the way the world actually works.

J

"It is ruthless, vicious (as the movie Munich can attest)"
Hahahahaha! Wow. Argument based on a fictional narrative. Please tell me you have something better.

olney,

israel is more useful to the us when she is a good world citizen. remember the good will that came her way after the gaza withdrawal?

the american executive, legislature and courts once sanctioned slavery too.

Stephanie
The question again
1)Whats the justification for the israels refusal to let palestinian refugees back to their homes.
2)Whats the justification for the settlements that are in West Bank built on Palestinian land.
3)Gaza is occupied Its called maximum control minimum responsibilty. It cannot control its borders it cannot control its air waves. Its occupied for all practical purposes.Remember it was called disengagment.
4)Whats was the justification for israels settlements in Gaza for thirty years.
5) You know what peole in west bank cannot travel ffrom one end to the other in there own territory( in there own land whats left of it ). They have to have special passes for them. I mean the list goes on and on. The water in gaza that people drink is harmful for corn to be grown in california.
Look Stephanie have the courage to accept whats wrong. I accept that what Hizbullah did was wrong.

Posted by: PeaceForAll | July 19, 2006 01:29 AM

Name:

Comments:
Stephanie
The question again
1)Whats the justification for the israels refusal to let palestinian refugees back to their homes.
2)Whats the justification for the settlements that are in West Bank built on Palestinian land.
3)Gaza is occupied Its called maximum control minimum responsibilty. It cannot control its borders it cannot control its air waves. Its occupied for all practical purposes.Remember it was called disengagment.
4)Whats was the justification for israels settlements in Gaza for thirty years.
5) You know what peole in west bank cannot travel ffrom one end to the other in there own territory( in there own land whats left of it ). They have to have special passes for them. and it has been since for thrity years long before there were any suicide bombimgs. I mean the list goes on and on. The water in gaza that people drink is harmful for corn to be grown in california.
Look Stephanie have the courage to accept whats wrong. I accept that what Hizbullah did was wrong. All this suicide killings are absolutely wrong but so is what Israel has been doing for the past thirty years.

>>Hannity n Colmes, it seems like you blame pretty much half of the US population for America's support of Israel ("pro-Israeli Jews and Soutern Baptist Evangelical Protestants," "the Zionist Evangelicals and their neoconservative ilk," "Newt Gingrich, Franklin Graham, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Sean Hannity, druggie Limbaugh").

Pretty much half?
It's time to take out the dictionary or almanac and do some bed time research before you have more Zionist dreams of Ertz Israel.

Soutern Baptist Evangelicals comprise 16 million (5.3%) of the Population but still the largest Protestant group. And the Jews 6 million (2% of the populace), of which about 60% are die-hard Israeli apologists.

So doing the math, 5.3 + 2.0 = 8.3% of the population. 1/5th of even half!

>>I encourage you to go to the Middle East and try to become "friends" with your average man in the street. Good luck!

I have and that is why I am driven insane by our pro-Israeli hijacked foreign policy!
I have many Jewish friends, Jewish professors, etc. they all seem reasonable until you mention the Israeli injustice then all of a sudden they take on this "defensive" mode of being the "victim." Unless the Jews stop thinking they are the only ones who can be "victims" and hold a monopoly on that title; I think It'll be very difficult to understand this problem through the eyes of the "other."

But until then, NO MORE AMERICAN TAX DOLLARS should be subsidized for Israeli weapons and bombs to terrorize its neighbors. Now we are talking about open war against Iran, a country which can potentially turn the entire ME into flames, including Iraq. That's precisely what the neocon, pro-Israeli warhawks wanted all along. And that is why Iraq was invaded, not because of oil soley, but for Israel-bidding, and the military-industrial complex.

Everything must be understood in its legitimate context.

I would just like to know why no one holds Yassir Arafat responsible for much of the present-day situation of the Palestinians. Where's the accountability for the millions and millions of dollars he pilfered from his people? What did he actually do to help these people rise from their poverty? Yes, he kept the Palestinian cause alive, fueling hatred while appearing to reach for peace with the Israelis. The Palestinians have never had good leadership, and that's part of the reason the Israelis have been unable to work with them to build lasting peace. You can't just give land to your neighbors when their charter calls for your destruction. Yes, it really does. Have you ever read the Palestinian National Covenant? It's never been changed and still calls for the destruction of Israel.

What about Jordan, which has a huge population of citizens of Palestinian descent? What has Jordan done to help out the Palestinian cause?

No, it's just easier to blame Israel. We all know why.

A military establishment that drops a 500-pound bomb on a residential apartment building in the middle of the night and kills 14 sleeping civilians, as happened in Gaza four years ago, is not a military that operates by civilized rules.

A military establishment that drops a 500-pound bomb on a house in the middle of the night and kills a man and his wife and seven of their children, as happened in Gaza four days ago, is not the military of a moral country.

A society that can brush off as unimportant an army officer's brutal murder of a 13-year-old girl on the claim that she threatened soldiers at a military post -- one of nearly 700 Palestinian children murdered by Israelis since the intifada began -- is not a society with a conscience.

A government that imprisons a 15-year-old girl -- one of several hundred children in Israeli detention -- for the crime of pushing and running away from a male soldier trying to do a body search as she entered a mosque is not a government with any moral bearings. (This story, not the kind that ever appears in the U.S. media, was reported in the London Sunday Times. The girl was shot three times as she ran away and was convicted to 18 months in prison after she came out of a coma.)

http://www.fromisraeltolebanon.org/

My apologies, Hannity n Colmes. Here I was perhaps foolishly expecting that you understood that I was exaggerating (there's a good word for you to look up). You'll notice I didnt bother to bust out the numbers. Should have been a clue.
You may want to note that it's more than just the Jews and Southern Protestants who are pro-Israel. Just today Hillary Clinton (not jewish, not a religious christian) declared her support of Israel's actions. This, of course, is not counting the myriad of senators and congressmen (likewise not jewish or southern christian) who believe that Israel is morally right (or the majority of the American public). Perhaps you ought to expand your own categoriziation of pro-Israel individuals.

Speaking of solving the political problem depends on what you mean by "solving". To the Jhadists, the problem is that Israel exists (and that Europe and the United States exist). Offered a state several besides Israel times, Palestinians have preferred continuing terror in their quest to Israel. Israel has tried again and again to resettle Palestinian refugees in modern cities, but it is the Arab states who have refused this and have turned Palestinians into a welfare people supported in refugee camps by foreign aid under UN auspices, for political purposes. A political solution requires willingness on both sides. The Palestinian people, in electing the genocidal Hamas immediately after Israel's Gaza withdrawal, have spoken their opinion most eloquently. No one likes or wants continual wars, just as no one likes or wants continually building dams to keep out the sea. But, if you live in Holland you build dams, and if you live in Israel, you fight wars. Holland intends NOT to drown, and Israel intends NOT to be annihilated.

Hezbollah, Hamas and their supporters seek the complete destruction of Israel. This is THE problem, the root cause for all the suffering of Palestinians and Lebanese. The core problem is NOT "occupation" of the West Bank, of Gaza, or of Golan Heights. It is not the Israeli attacks against militants in Gaza or Lebanon. Arabs, do you TRULY seek peace for your Palestinian brothers? If so the path is clear... support Israel's existence and follow GANDHI'S path of peaceful resistance, and the universe will bring the Palestinians and Lebanese great influence and peace. Alternatively, you can continue to seek the destruction of Israel, in which case you will invite and experience only pain, suffering and destruction. It is YOUR choice. CHOOSE WISELY.

PeaceForAll:

Let me remind you that the Palestinians were offered a reasonable land deal back in 1948, which THEY refused. From that point forward, they fought with the Israelis over territory. Did you really expect the Israelis to just hand over the land to people who wanted to annihilate them??? In addition, the Palestinians were told by other Arab nations to squat the land until they "liberated" them and the land from Israel.

In 1967, when Israel's surrounding "neighbors" all attacked Israel at one time, Israel captured the territory IN SELF DEFENSE. You keep forgetting that the sole ambition of the Palestinians has been to DESTROY Israel all these years. It's written into their covenant. It's been one of the sticking points all these years that they haven't re-worded their covenant to remove that language and accept Israel's right to exist AT ALL. Forget which borders - - - how about its right to exist at all as a country that the rest of the world accepts?

I'm guessing that Israel must keep a close watch on Gaza due to the constant terrorist activites that go on there. Haven't you heard about the tunnels that are dug to smuggle weapons in?

Gaza was a gesture from Israel, a concession, that should have been the start of the Palestinian people's move toward independence as a nation. Instead, they voted in a terrorist organization that will continue to agitate Israel and kill innocent people.

I wish you could grasp the concept that land will NOT bring peace as long as there are Israelis (read Jews) in that region.

Just 2 questions:

1)How many jews vote in US elections, and what % are Republican?

2)What's all this about N.Korean rockets, can they really send them to the Middle East?

Since 1973, Israel has cost the United States about $1.6 trillion. If divided by today's population, that is more than $5,700 per person.

And now Israel wants more. In a meeting at the White House late last month, Israeli officials made a pitch for $4 billion in additional military aid to defray the rising costs of dealing with the intifada and suicide bombings. They also asked for more than $8 billion in loan guarantees to help the country's recession-bound economy.

Considering Israel's deep economic troubles, one doubts the Israel bonds covered by the loan guarantees will ever be repaid. The bonds are likely to be structured so they don't pay interest until they reach maturity. The US would end up paying both principal and interest, perhaps 10 years out.

Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid. It is already due to get $2.04 billion in military assistance and $720 million in economic aid in fiscal 2003. It has been getting $3 billion a year for years.

Adjusting the official aid to 2001 dollars in purchasing power, Israel has been given $240 billion since 1973, Stauffer reckons. In addition, the US has given Egypt $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion in foreign aid in return for signing peace treaties with Israel.

What about us ? the taxpayers ???

Where are the moderates in this debate? Radical Islamic terrorists are evil, but Israel overreacted. Israel is probably making things worse in the end but that's their problem. Well, actually it's everyone's problem - Arab states, Palestinians, the U.S...

"1)How many jews vote in US elections, and what % are Republican?"
What does it matter? You think only Jews care about Israel? I can assure you that there are non-Jews who can see plainly what is going on in the region.

Emmanual Hyman -

Very well put!!! I agree completely!

Moneytalks -

Where are you getting your statistics? Some of your assertions are very incorrect.

So, the Jews are smart & wealthy, no doubt about that. Then, they can find a new & under developed land and start fresh. The UN can find them one. There's a lot of undeveloped areas that the world can benefit. No more killings, no more excuses from anybody. No more blame on history or the British. Why waste time fighting. Don't tell me about history or sacred things in Israel. No more excuse & think about the future. Just go & do it. See what happen. Otherwise, the Jews will be suffering for a long, long time. It's proven historically and even now. So, make a change. They are smart, they have money.

"Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid."
You're right. But guess who's number 2? Egypt (at least, up until a couple of years ago).

THE CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

Suppose there are 10 terrorists and you kill 5, how many terrorists will there be?

Matt:

"So, the Jews are smart & wealthy, no doubt about that. Then, they can find a new & under developed land and start fresh. The UN can find them one. There's a lot of undeveloped areas that the world can benefit. No more killings, no more excuses from anybody. No more blame on history or the British. Why waste time fighting. Don't tell me about history or sacred things in Israel. No more excuse & think about the future. Just go & do it. See what happen. Otherwise, the Jews will be suffering for a long, long time. It's proven historically and even now. So, make a change. They are smart, they have money."

You are the most blatant anti-Semite I've encountered in ages. You ought to be ashamed of yourself! I am curious to know why you really feel this way about Jewish people. I feel sorry for you.

What you suggest is absurd. Have you actually gotten an education? Do you understand that Judaism predated Christianity and Islam? That the Jews have biblical claims to Jerusalem and many other areas in the region that is now Israel? What piece of land are you offering so that all the Israelis can relocate?

I would almost assume that you are joking, but sadly, I think you are serious. It's pathetic.

matt,
Cant you read a book? You think there was a state in "palestine" before Israel was established? It was a British mandate full of non-descript arabs of no "nationality". Before that it was part of the Ottoman empire, not independent. The only thing resembling a state in Israel from the time of the Romans to 1948 were the Christian Crusader kingdoms. Figure it out. The Jews didnt "take" anyone's land.

Olney, MD-

"Don't hold your breath. Israel matters far more than anyone else in the region for the United States due to our military alliances, trade, and shared Western backgrounds."

An alliance we clearly don't need with the likes of Jonathon Pollard. The bottom line is that the common denominator in any American-directe terrorist attack is the American-Israeli relationship. So the question becomes; do we need Israel as an ally in the war on terror or are they the reason we are involved in a war on terror?

One must wonder why a "western" democracy like Iceland never has to bother with terrorists.

"We sell arms to LOTS of countries around the world. It is a way of rewarding friends for their cooperation."

Our cooperation with Israel goes well beyond the logical limits of rewarding reasonable cooperation. They receive the most funds from any country in the world yet provide fairly little in return; nevermind that the British government supports us with actual troops and military funding yet receive considerably less in international aid. AND all countries (barring Israel) receive their American charity in increments... so the Israelis alone can enjoy interest off our overwhelmingly generous welfare to their country.

One must wonder why we are allies at all with Israel who has proven itself a back stabbing ally in peacetimes and an utterly incompetent one during warfare. What do we possibly gain from a military alliance with Israel besides widespread animosity throughout the Islamic world? The axiom "your enemy's enemy is your ally" only works in so far as your enemy has a good reason to hate you besides you being their enemy's ally! And yet we are reminded after each terrorist attack that the REASON we are targeted (and Sweden, Iceland, Belgium, Switzerland, New Zealand... are not) is because of our cooperation with Israel.

"The Russians sold arms to Iraq, Iran, Syria, Eqypt, Vietnam, China, etc. but do you hear us blaming them when those countries use them?? We may not like it but we hold the owners responsible not the manufacturers. Think logically not emotionally. It's a business pure and simple."

Brilliant example. So how did that funding work out for the former USSR?

It's not a matter of who WE hold responsible, but of who the funded hold responsible. So while you might bat an eyelash over our former funding of Osama Bin Ladin, the rest of us have to wonder what possible utility there was in supporting him against the Ruskies in Afghanistan.

Or reasonable people might wonder why on earth we paid Saddam to fight the likes of Chalabi and Maliki and their ilk in the 80s, yet we hand the keys of Iraq to our former Iranian refugees enemies: the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq and the Islamist Dawa Party (who now hold a majority of seats in the Iraqi parliament).

So it isn't just a "matter of business" but rather a matter of decisions that have consequences which you apparently don't have any concept of. For the Russians the problem was they spent themselves into irrelevancy by pumping billions of military supplies into each and every potential enemy which eventually starved the state and forced their collapse. For us we pump money into undeserving spies who invade their allies and enrage 1+ billion Muslims worldwide into a Jihad against us so that a 6 million person state can enjoy an unearned Security Council veto vote from a global power with 300 million people.

stephanie,

nice try. get some rest. the americans did not wait to blame hirohito for the plight of the japanese, they helped them to their feet. i have said it a thousand times, general sharon et al do not have the pedigree of marshall and macarthur. it takes political will to make a just peace.

the jewish nation if fooled by its apparent military superiority. the same arrogance that's drowning w.

Egypt ? a US puppet ....no wonder

"I can assure you that there are non-Jews who can see plainly what is going on in the region."

The most influential group of non-jews that strongly supports Israel are the Rapture crowd. Protestant fundamentalists who believe that before they can be raptured all Jews have to return to Palestine and then convert to Christinity.

Captain Video,
I cant speak to which group constitutes the "most infleuntial" group of non-Jews in this country (even if one could really guage "infleunce" in this regard). But I also know that of millions of Americans (who are neither Jewish nor fundamentalist christians) support Israel.

Let me go point by point to your assertions. Also to be clear, I support a Palestinian State. Not the PA but a real state based upon commonly agreed upon definitions of that staehood. Playing the victim gets old. If they really wanted to better themselves they would have moved. Oh but that's right even their Arab neighbors don't want them. Good, solid friends they got huh?

1. Organizations DO NOT, repeat DO NOT have anything near the cohesion of states.
Please see REAL IRA example from #2. In addition. the only examples where a non-state actor has held to any agreements has been when it has been folded back into the state. I will assume you forgot to look at the splinter groups of the Palestinian movement who can't even agree among themselves, i.e. Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Martyrs, Hamas, the PLO, Hezbollah, etc, etc. I believe I have made my point

Next,

2. Ahhh, but you do not understand. When a State dissolves or secedes it is based upon the commonly held aspirations or beliefs of the nation that makes up the state and is rarely done due to its difficulty. Disaffected members of society cannot just up an secede. Try it someday. Everyone will look at you funny and laugh and wonder what hole you crawled out of. A weak state may have numerous forces at work, often at loggerheads, see Pakistan. And that is what makes them so dangerous and unpredictable. You never know what side you are doing business with.

Next,

3. I see you made no comments...

Next,

4. Again TRUE. I hardly think you using a movie is a strong argument. Methinks Netflix has you by the balls.

As to its ruthlessness, of course state-sponsored violence is ruthless. I never said it wasn't. It is meant to be that way. That is why it is a deterrent. It is however enacted by a commonly understood law. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Are you suggesting Israel should have done nothing in response to the assassination of its ATHLETES <----- We're talking ATHLETES!!!! At games meant to symbolize the goodwill of man no less. Have they no shame?

Also, Overwhelming force is the only way one should enact stae violence. To do otherwise risks the lives of your people and makes a conflict drag on and possibly escalate to bring in others. A swift kill is a merciful kill. No, the mother of all ironies is that you are talking about something you have obviously never experienced first hand yet pretend to know about. If Lebanon did respond, I think we both know what would happen. This is why they haven't. War first??? Uhmmm, what planet are you on and do they have TV there? Hezbollah is NOT the government, merely one minority (albeit powerful)party in its parliament. That is like saying the Democartic Party IS the government, HA!!If it WAS the Lebanese government the Lebanese Army would be fighting the Israeli military machine as we type. Therefore, Hezbollah has NO legitimacy and while it may be popular amongst a certain segment of the country I wouldn't call it widespread by any means. A Hezbollah rally in Beirut drew a couple HUNDRED cars waving flags. How widespread is that?

Next,

5. Israel has not flouted anything meaningful. The 61 UN Resolutions you are referring to were those passed by the General Assembly not the Security Council. Hence binding perhaps as much as the resolution to eliminate poverty by 2020. Yeah, OK. Whatever. The UN is worse than useless. I won't argue we used those resolutions as cover, we did. They were, however, passed by the Security Council which gave them teeth and some semblance of adherence to international norms.

In sum, my point is not that States are perfect rather they are better than loose amorphous "organizations". FYI non-state actors or proxies is the proper teminology.

Shegay K. -

It takes more than political will to make a just peace. It takes people who are committed to the process. People who actually respect the other side and don't call for its destruction, as the Palestinian National Covenant does in reference to Israel. Come on already. Face the facts.

>>Just today Hillary Clinton (not jewish, not a religious christian) declared her support of Israel's actions. This, of course, is not counting the myriad of senators and congressmen (likewise not jewish or southern christian) who believe that Israel is morally right (or the majority of the American public

Which proves my point quite precisely.
The fact that a major Democratic Senator, and a war-hawk like Bush against Iraq (might I add for Israel's security) and the rest of all the puppet Senators and Congressman parrot Israel's line just proves yet again how entrenched AIPAC's grip of Washington power really is. I mean Congressmen and women vie to get a speaking slot to its annual convention, including top officials of Bush administration like Rice, Cheney, and Bush himself. This after AIPAC and its top member was under investigation for espionage for Israel against US.

The fact of the matter is, you won't see ANY ELECTED offical be brave enough to publicly criticize Israel lest they risk endangering their political life.

As was the case with two well known and well-respected Harvard and Univeristy of Chicago academians whose reputation was slurred by the pro-Israeli smear machine after they dare claim as a fundamental right to free speech, that horrors of all horrors, "American policy is tilted towards Israel," not because of some moral conviction but because of political dollars and powerful influence many Jewish organizations exerts over Washington policy vis a vis Israel. Suddently Alan Dershowitz of Harvard, the senile, relexive "law professor" went on to character assassinate one of his own at Harvard for being an "anti-Semite."

Therefore, the fact that the US vetoes the mildest of criticism against Israel at the UN, or passess lobsided resolutions 400-1, 390-22, etc in favor of "standing with the people of Israel," against "terrorist Hamas" just goes to prove the point of how biased and hypocritical our politicians in Washington from both sides of the aile are. I wouldn't blame them, if my political life was also in jeopardy.

http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=9314

During the first crusade, the western powers managed to capture Jerusalem from the Muslims and set up the Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem. For a time it had the military superiority and was able to hold the Muslim world off. But the Muslim world never accepted this and eventually managed to recapture Jerusalem. The western powers were unable to stop this and failed, in the third crusade to reestablish the Christian kingdom. Saladin, who accomplished this is still a great hero among the Muslims. Israel should not assume that it will always have the military superiority and the unquestioned support of the United States. There are a lot more Muslims in the middle east than Israilies. Israel must work out accommodations with the Muslim world now, while it still has the superiority. That cannot be done with the iron fist and requires making concessions.