imagine rockets falling on american soil from canada on one hand, and terrorists shelling us from mexico while both governments claim innocence and helplessness, thereby refusing to lift a finger against the militants. would our government hesitate to put pressure on civilians to make new choices and adopt new heroes?

Every one seems to be fighting this war with the enemies rules and which group ever won a war in that manner.Follow a heavy weight boxers methods and give it the best of what you have,as long as you can.

Hezbollah's capture of two Israeli soldiers ...
The Word "capture"... is wrong..
You do not capture a person from his home... You Kidnap him.
Please correct... (elementary english? or is intended?)

Sanity should prevail but who is sane in the Middle East?

Whilst Israel is in occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, to say nothing of East Jerusalem, and refuses to deal with issues such as a right of return of Palestinian refugess, what does the rest of the world expect? Imagine part of the USA was occupied by Mexico. No doubt US citizens would refain from any efforts to overturn this outrage. Israel has the ability to solve the problem by relinquishing its claim to the Occupied Territories once and for all; by setting its international borders within the 1967 limits and by dealing fairly with the Palestinain refugees it has taken land from.

This is exactly what Hezbollah, Syria and Iran wants, and Israel is falling into their trap.
A stable Lebanon will provide security to Israel, but it will not suit the agenda of Hezbollah and Syria. Hezbollah will not survive in a prosperous Lebanon it will be forced out. It will loose its support as people become financially stable.
Israel current response to the kidnapping is the exact response that Iran, Syria and Hezbollah want. They want Israel to destroy the economy and infrastructure of Lebanon and any hope of Lebanon being a safe and prosperous country.
Israel is making a mistake and it's only retaliating with emotion not clear thinking. It will only serve Israel interest to have a stable Lebanon.

For Israel, neigther military response nor negotiations will work. Either must be viewed as short term tactics. The real solution lies in:

a) Military robotics as an answer to the Islamacists asymetric warfare.

b) Replacing oil (which could be done militarily by striking the oil fields). If oil prices go high enough other solutions will be found and the economy will lock into those solutions. After that, no funds, no fun for terrorists.

Now imagine those courties are doing that because they claim we stole the land that used to belong to mexico.

Now imagine those countries are doing that because they claim we stole the land that used to belong to mexico.

Israel should attack any and all of its hostile enemies in both Lebanon and Palestinian controlled terretories incessantly until they get it through their thick skulls, that terror will not desuade Israelis from living a peaceful existence as they are entitled to like any other citizens of the world.

imagine pebbles falling on american soil from canada on one hand, and terrorists shelling us with the rubble that used to be there houses from mexico while both governments are too cash strapped, starving and in political turmoil to exert very much of any sort of control over their population, thereby kindling mass support for terrorists. would our government hesitate to drop a few thermonuclear bombs to stop that annoying clinking sound of things hitting the armor plating on our tanks and jets?

when the only thing preventing israel from being the target of a security council resolution is a US veto, they might want to consider that their particular response may be a bit harsh and counterproductive. nobody doubts that the israeli military can beat up on all of its surrounding countries simultaneously, but such an action will only increase support for terrorist organizations such as hamas and hezbollah. a nation cannot compromise its integrity by stooping to the level of terrorists.

I think that as a nation, israel should prove its legitimacy by playing down its history as a jewish state in a sea of muslim states, and become a leader and regional participant, an example for the rest to see and emulate, an anchor for the region. the concept of a state for a specific religion or race/ethnicity is obsolete.

Yes and imagine one of your neighbours robs a bank and the SWAT team - levels your building and shoots your kids to get to your neighbour...

the civilians have no choices and their heroes are defined as those who stand against the jackbooted thugs who find it morally acceptable to decimate their lives...

It is now appropriate at this juncture to note one fatality one civilian. In executing a greater number for these perfidiesmay serve to deter blackmail and the figleaf to hide hegemonist designs! One hostage has already been killed

It is now appropriate at this juncture to note one fatality one civilian. In executing a greater number for these perfidiesmay serve to deter blackmail and the figleaf to hide hegemonist designs! One hostage has already been killed.

It looks like an over-reaction, until you consider that Iranian soldiers are attacking Israel from southern Lebanon.

The massive attack is Israel's message to Iran that they are prepared to go war now.

If Iran doesn't respond correctly, this could end in strikes against Iran, and for all their talk, Iran cannot cross into Israel on land, sea or in the air.

And of course the one country in the world supporting ...Israel......US!!

Time to reread M & W paper....

One can see how foolish is Israel's attempts at negotiating with these savages. In their midguided notions of civility they handed the murderers the appearance of victory.

It is a shame that Israel does not fully unleash the dogs of war and rid the earth of this disease.

I think Israel made a mistake in the 2004 prisoner swap which has led to the current kidnapping of Israeli soldiers. This time Israel should hit Hezbollah positions very hard and bring down Mr. Nasrallah and make him return the two kidnapped soldiers. There is no such thing as a measured response when you are dealing with terrorists.

Imagine the United States occupied by a foreign power for decades, the houses of people who dare fighting back destroyed, the children, women and elderly massacred indiscriminately: I would fight that foreign power with any mean at my disposal. It seems to me that the state of Israel is a terrorist state, and what's more, is using "modern" day fascist tactics against the Palestinians. The complacency with fascism has to stop. Ethnic cleansing, regardless of where it comes from, has to be confronted.

Or perhaps they should just send in the SLA again to massacre civilians (or savages as Rabbi Bruce calls them) on the ground ....

I'm sure they can find some of the old Phalangist leadership to do their dirty work again ......oh wait that's right ..they were mysterioulsy blown up a day or so before sharon's human's rights trial in europe....

hate to say it but olmert (richard cranium) is making sharon look like gandhi at this point....

>> "Imagine the United States occupied by a foreign power for decades...."

You need a History lesson!

The term "Palestine" was invented by Europeans a thousand years ago, when they drove most Jews off the land.

The "Palestinians" are merely arabs who took Jewish lands after this.

In recent history, the Ottomans and arabs sided with the losing side in both World Wars. The Empire collapsed, and the current borders were set by the conquering powers, and later the UN.

The Jewish state was finally RESTORED to them. But arabs, having been given almost all of the former Empire, continue to make a complete pig's breakfast of everything.

Moral: If you lose a war, you lose the land--as happened to Israel a thousand years ago, and the arabs in 1945.

I feel Israel is in a rare position of moral superiority in this case. I'm usually not too forgiving to the Israelis but if there's ever to be peace these militias have to be controlled, if not by their own governments than by Israel.

Jefferson:

Why didn't you mention the missles that rained down on Haifa today, and the hundreds of thousands of Israelis hiding in bomb shelters? Surely this news is as vital as Israeli actions in Lebanon, no?

Is it not ironic that Israeli jails are filled with predominately Palestinians, and that U.S. jails are filled with predominately ________?(fill in the blank)

Hhhhmmmmmm..........Very Interesting......

It's really funny. Americans talk from what they were taught to say. Love Israel and Israel is our friend. Israel got our back. Every once and awhile an Israeli spy is caught in America trying to steal our national secrets. And Arabs who pump more fuel with a phone call from the US are not. They are just enemies who dislike America.
I think what's happenning here is Global confustion and repeated messages of brainwashing on the ethinicity of an Arab. Arabs are people; they bleed; they feel. But when an Arab fights for his land; he is an insurgent. When Arab says I want to go to the beach without being shelled from American Apaches; he is an idiot.
Americans know who really controls America - the corporations. Follow the money.
Iraqi War. Why do Arabs hate us so much? About 100,000 Iraqi died, A mother, A sister, a brother, and a friend. And a little girl bound and violated while hearing her family shot next door. A pregnant woman shot and the baby died too, she just wanted a baby. Sorry, I forget to tell you that fact: Arabs breed like cats. So when you kill their children, and violate their countries borders they just do like idiots and take it.

I think people on this list, should say if he or she had an Arab as friend then decide to speak.

Actually, guys, this post is not giving a rounded picture. Saudi Arabia came out today in official CONDEMNATION of Hezbollah. Arabs are not rallying around Hezbollah so uniformly.

The notion that the Palestinian and Lebanese people bear no responsibility for the actions of their governments is really a big steaming pile, and saying that the Israelis are applying collective punishment is rolling the pile in the sugar of guilt so that the world will swallow it.

Who exactly in Palestine voted for a Hamas government? I seem to remember that those elections were certified as free and fair by the world's observers. Should it come as any surprise that the terrorist organization that they voted in as their government has led them down this particular path? The Palestinian people are not stupid, and they should not now expect the rest of the world to believe that they are. They've sown the wind, and are now reaping the whirlwind.

Same for Lebanon. Knowing that it was Hezbollah that caused the last Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon, the people of that country have still allowed it to operate in their land. None of them can have any credibility on the international stage if they say that they did not see this coming.

Well, if you elect terrorists into government, or elect governments who turn a blind eye to their activities, if not offering covert or overt support for these groups who purposely operate in civillian areas for the PR value of civilian casualties when Israel strikes back at them, then you get what you deserve. Collective punishment is the term that has been used - perhaps the action is an appropriate response to the collective responsibility that the Palestinian and Lebanese people bear.

missiles rain down on haifa and a few thousand israelis are in shelters because their ashke NAZI armies are in the midst of one massive anschluss and are preparing for a second in lebanon...at least they have shelters to hide in unlike the 50-100 civilians who have died at the hands of the ashkeNAZI airforce in the past day or so..

what in the hell is the sense of destabilising lebanon...because they won't fight a civil war on behalf of israel...

its all about regional israeli hegemony and nothing else....

Israel routinely kidnaps people not only from Lebanon and the surrounding countries but from anywhere in the world. Not only it kidnaps people, it also assassinate them with no trial whatsoever.

What we are dealing with is not a clandestine terrorist group but an official elected terrorist state, which was only created recently by the use of terror, collective punishment and mass expulsion of natives.

Israel is the leading violator of UN resolutions in the entire world. Its 5 million Israeli citizens have been ruling by force and terror 3.8 million Palestinians since 1967 against their will. Millions of others have been barred from returning to their homes since 1948.

In 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon and killed at least 19,000 people, and injured 30,000.

While one can expect some kind of response from Israel against Hezbollah's attack on its military, is bombing Beirut's civilian airport justified?

Is putting the entire country under siege justified?

Is bombing bridges and roads justified?

Israel also bombed the main highway that links Lebanon to Syria, the same highway that is used by people who are fleeing for their lives to Syria.

A score of civilians have been killed already including 10 members of the same family, babies and children.

Israel has become a mad violent state. Its people have become hysterical and act as if Lebanon or Hezbollah is Nazi Germany.

This criminal state since 1948 has not stopped killing, destroying, evicting natives, punishing innocent people, bombing refugee camps, and killing people's hope.

Wake up America.

This is the kind of stuff that encouraged and created the environment for 9-11.

This is the kind of stuff that has created tensions between over 200 million Arabs and over 200 million Americans.

Israel, a nation of merely 6 million people (besides its second class Arab minority), is bombing and killing with US made weapons.

All of this is now broadcast-ed live on Arab TV channels all over the Arab world, 24/7.

yes david ...and israels leaders over the past 60 years .... are all peace loving hippies of course....yearning for peace and freedom ...isreali's voted them in so are they inviting the lunacy of hamas and hezbollah on themselves too - or are u just going to stick woith the same old one sided garbage you guys always trot out....

Here is another link to a Lebanese blogger expressing the low support that Hezbollah has as a result of this event.

http://lebop.blogspot.com/

Let's see - why DOES Israel occupy the West Bank and Golan Heights (and previously Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula)? Oh yes, it was attacked 4 times in 25 years by the armed forces of its multiple neighbors who were attempting to elimiate it. These areas were captured in those wars, and were held as buffer zones against further attacks. Peace treaty with Egypt resulted in a return of its territory.

And, the right of displaced Palestinians to return to Israel? Why should Israel allow this? The arabs absolutely and completely deny the Jews displaced by Rome the legitimacy to return to their ancient homelands. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Suggestion:
It might be a little slower, but at least more cost effective, for Israel to bombard the Palestinian children with Rock/Rap/Pop/Hip Hop/Whatever else sells?, "negative violent culture", and just sit back and watch them destroy themselves............

P.S. Intended to be a parody of Western culture......

"This is the kind of stuff that encouraged and created the environment for 9-11."

Karim -

Blaming Israel for 9-11. Such insight and intellect.

Poor Israel can only rely on its military strength to survive amongst the enemies around her.It is sad to learn of innocent civilians suffering and being killed but Lebanon and Palestine should blame their own leaders because their abductions and suicide bombing decisions will rather bring reciprocal response from Israel. Israel has the right to defend herself.
Both sides can however go back to the round table for a diplomatic solution to the crisis. After all the international community does not support the bloodshed.

why is it ok for isreal to abduct Lebanese citizens and hold lebanese citizens in jail, and still occupies part of southern lebanon, and suddenly the world is in uproar when the Lebanese do the same?

The Lebanese never caused any trouble to Isreal until Isreal invaded Lebanon, and still occupies part of Lebanon, and hold Lebanese ctizens in its jails since the occupation.

The bombardement of the airport only serves the economic derailment of the lebanese economy during this upcoming busy tourist season. Isreal is afraid that Lebanon will return to its pre-war economic status being the center of economic and cultural center of the middle east.

The Lebanese blood is as dear as the isreali blood to their respective families.

Enough double standards

Yes, we kill Arabs because we got big guns and we like to use them. And our friends in the Senate and Corporate ladder got our back.

I love Israel.

David:

"Oh yes, it was attacked 4 times in 25 years by the armed forces of its multiple neighbors who were attempting to elimiate it. "

Let me get this straight:

Before 1948, a GANG of mainly Russian-Born Zionists fleeing their homelands attacked a nation of peasants in the Middle East. Not the other way around.

Few Arab nations came to their rescue but ultimately failed. Injustice prevailed, and the gang established a state of their own through terror and mass expulsion of natives.

In 1956, Israel (France and Britain) attacked Egypt.

In 1967, Israel again attacked Egypt, and occupied the entire Egyptian Sinai (biblical prophecy!)

In 1973, Egypt attacks the Israeli occupiers in order to free its Sinai.

That's what happened.

There is no choice left for Israel but military action to root out Iran-backed Hizbollah and Hamas. There is Lebonese government claimin' havin' no information on Hizbollah's activities and on the Palestinian side there is a terrorist group as the government. The root of all this turmoil are the Ayatollahs in Iran who would do everything to wipe Israel off the map of the earth. The international community is quite mindful of this threat but economic ties with this outlaw regime by many European states, Russia and China have made them all indifferent. It is the Iranian people who should pay for the consequences in the long run, i can say they have already been payin' for this regime's policies since the inception of this autocracy. May God forbid but a full-fledge war between Israel and its allies on one side and Iran on the other is looming on the horizon.

Ali Rayan
Qom, Iran

Ali Rayan,

Are you sure you are from Iran not Israel?

Karim:

"All of this is now broadcast-ed live on Arab TV channels all over the Arab world, 24/7."

Maybe you should watch less T.V.. It has obviously hurt your reading comprehension skills AND communication skills.

In case you haven't noticed, the topic here is the current Israeli retaliation in Lebanon.

I've been reading about it all afternoon, through a network of Lebanese and Israeli blogs that are in contact with one another, having civil, empathetic, concerned discourse - as opposed to your usual seething.

I posted some stuff from a Lebanese blogger above.

Perhaps you can make an effort at intelligent commentary regarding the issue at hand. Otherwise, maybe you'd feel more comfortable at say - the Electronic Intifada sight - or in a Hezbollah chatroom.

Jefferson:

Here is an artical about the rockets that have been raining down on northern Israel today.

I'm still curious as to why you didn't mention it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/14/world/middleeast/14israel.html?hp&ex=1152849600&en=c491fc76b30a7a9f&ei=5094&partner=homepage

saxyboy:

"Blaming Israel for 9-11. Such insight and intellect."

I am just telling you what people believe in and I don't think it is difficult to understand.

Israel and the US blames Saudi Arabia's ideology for influencing radicals, why can't images of destruction caused by Israel influence radicals?

Earlier, Al-Jazeera was showing a Lebanese civilian in Beirut all covered with blood.

Israel is bombing Lebanon with US made weapons against civilian targets.

Some people are still wondering about israel's role in 9/11.
Well, take a look at this independent investigation (see link below)..It just might open up your eyes and may be also your minds. Here is the link:

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/WTC_STF.htm

AN INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION OF 9-11 AND THE WAR ON TERRORISM

Also,take a look at the following site and know a thing or tow about how ugly and dangerous this movement is and how subhuman its followers are.

http://www.serendipity.li/zionism.htm

"Zionists are experts at propaganda, disinformation, distorting facts and claims, and outright lying. Any criticism of Zionism or of Israel is labelled as "anti-semitism", where this is interpreted to mean "anti-Jewish". This is a slanderous falsehood. Criticism of Zionism is criticism of a particularly ugly political movement, not criticism of a religion or of the adherents of a religion. One may be critical of Zionism and of Zionists while at the same time being quite tolerant of, or well-disposed toward, or even an adherent of, the Jewish religion (as we see from the websites cited above).

Whether one approves of or dislikes the beliefs and practices of Judaism it remains that Jews have a right to hold those beliefs and maintain those practices. No-one, however, Jewish or non-Jewish, has a right to drive out people from their homes on land where they and their forebears have been living for centuries, to deprive people of their human rights, to cripple their society and to damage the welfare of others by a parasitic subversion of the government of another country for base political purposes, which is what Zionists have done and continue to do."

http://www.serendipity.li/zionism.htm

Latest news from Al-Jazeera sources:

3 people dead and 29 injured caused by the latest bombing of the airport bridge in Southern Beirut.

The airport itself was bombed twice today.

Karim:

I'm sorry, I know many people who don't blame Israel for 9/11.

I'll repeat, that I've posted a link which is a blog that is part of a network of Lebanese and Israelis who are discussing things an a higher level than you ever have on these boards. Maybe you should read the link I posted and open your eyes to different views within the Arab world, that is not just informed by state-run Arab TV stations, and consists of people talking to each other. Or, for that matter, read Jefferson's link to Michael Young. While I don't agree with Young 100%, he is actually pretty fair to Israel on this topic, and obviously understands the need the Jewish state has to defend itself. He is also very critical of Hezbollah.

You might learn something, but I doubt it.

And Karim:

Thanks for posting the news from Al Jazeerah. I'm on the internet; however, so I don't need your updates. I'm keeping abreast of the situation myself.

And one more question.

Saudi Arabia issued an official statement today blaming Hezbollah and Hamas for the current crisis.

I wonder if you care to comment on that.

Ask not what Isreal can do for you
But what can you do for Isreal? Here is this Olmert guy; who is like ticked and came out swinging. I had to duck right. Then some folks from a differnet neighborhood like were missing with him a little and he completely blew his lead off man.

"When elephants fight its the grass that suffers."

I can understand Israels postion but mindless bombing and agressive tactics may not be the solution. Unfortunately its the civilians that suffer. Why do the civilians have to take collective responsibility? What happened to the Israels legendary commando (Sayeret Matkal) operations to rescue hostages.

There's little to be gained by trying to discern who is the "aggressor" and who is the "victim" in this issue. The broader conflict is so old and complicated no one can clearly stake out the higher moral ground.

For Americans, the fundamental questions are these: What are our interests in the Middle East? And, how are those interests served by continuing to spend our political (another UN veto) and financial capital protecting Israel?

The "victims" are clearly the civilians who are caught up in this mindless act of "tit for tat" retaliation.

Saxyboy,

It is from Al-Jazeera TV itself which is usually ahead of its website.

Also please don't confuse Al-Jazeera News TV (www.aljazeera.net) and www.aljazeera.com. The latter is a magazine that is not affiliated with the news TV station.

I did mention in my first post that I would understand an Israeli response to Hezbollah's attack which I believe was a mistake. Why Israel is only concerned with showing "force" to us Arabs?

Israeli response is way too much. Everyone knows the Lebanese people have nothing to do with that attack.

Saudi Arabia's statement is irrelevant. All they do is issue useless empty statements, be it in defense of Palestinians or otherwise.

This is crazy: Israel has to have more focussed military operations or negotiations. Carpet bombing a whole region is not the solutions

Its like burning down someones house to kill a rat.

Last year, Bush and Rice were insisting that Lebanese sovereignty must be respected by Syria.

But when it is Israel, then it is a free range for Israeli forces to bomb whatever they choose.

Karim:

"Why Israel is only concerned with showing "force" to us Arabs?"

I don't think it's true that "Israel is only concerned with showing 'force' to the Arabs."

"Also please don't confuse Al-Jazeera News TV (www.aljazeera.net) and www.aljazeera.com. The latter is a magazine that is not affiliated with the news TV station."

I realize that, and I'm not sure why you're telling me this. As I said, I've been keeping up on this all day from various sources, as I have friends who are Lebanese and Israeli.

As far as your other opinions, I obviously disagree with them.

And Saudi Arabia's statement is not "irrelevant" - given that the kingdom never issues an official statement that implies sympathy for Israel, as it did today.

I believe that the kingdom's statement, along with Youssef Ibrahim's recent editorial printed in the New York Sun, Ynet, and other papers, along with condemnations Arab commentators have issued against Hezbollah - and what I'm reading from Arab blogs - is showing a weariness on behalf of some in the Arab world with Jihadist and Palestinian terror and the Israel issue in general.

You got a admit. Israel's milkshake brought all the world reporters/attention to yard. Olmert can teach you but he has to charge.

looks like the nazionist apologists are out in force again tonight........

no matter what israel does ..its justified..kill kids...blow up civilians, destroy infrastructure etc etc...it's there fault for living in amongst terrorist....

seems that no matter where the zionist bombs land and no matter who is killed the israelis and their pathetic apologists will say that there was a terrorist living there .....or at least someone who was guilty of uttering the words "Palestine" on a Sunday or some such offence....

at least everyone is seeing israels true colors again.....state sanctioned terrorism...

Saxyboy:

You should read few Israeli editorials which called for a response that should be total (YEDIOT AHARONOT for instance).

One never knows when the Saudi government is speaking its mind or when they are reading US messages.

For Youssef Ibrahim, he is a supporter of Bush, so that should be enough. The other day, he was calling on the full invasion of Syria.

Arabs would have condemned Hezbollah if Israel didn't invade. Now, everyone is talking about the Israeli invasion and the destruction associated with it.

Hezbollah attacked a military target, you can't call that terrorism.

If say last week, Israel went into southern Lebanon and caught some Hezbollah fighter, would you think it was outrageous? I don't think you would. It is just that many people in America got used to the idea that Israel is some kind of God in the middle east. So when God attacks, it is ok. When the subjects attack God, it becomes outrageous, which prompts God to retaliate with force.

And by the way, some Israeli group declared a while ago that they kidnapped 2 Palestinian civilians in Jerusalem.

Saxyboy:

You should read few Israeli editorials which called for a response that should be total (YEDIOT AHARONOT for instance).

One never knows when the Saudi government is speaking its mind or when they are reading US messages.

For Youssef Ibrahim, he is a supporter of Bush, so that should be enough. The other day, he was calling on the full invasion of Syria.

Arabs would have condemned Hezbollah if Israel didn't invade. Now, everyone is talking about the Israeli invasion and the destruction associated with it.

Hezbollah attacked a military target, you can't call that terrorism.

If say last week, Israel went into southern Lebanon and caught some Hezbollah fighter, would you think it was outrageous? I don't think you would. It is just that many people in America got used to the idea that Israel is some kind of God in the middle east. So when God attacks, it is ok. When the subjects attack God, it becomes outrageous, which prompts God to retaliate with force.

And by the way, some Israeli group declared a while ago that they kidnapped 2 Palestinian civilians in Jerusalem.

Middle East Peace Plan

Step 1: Have the UN form a new nation of Palestine, formerly known as the state of Florida.

Step 2: Provide any and all necessary UN peace keeping and security forces to secure the coasts, the borders and the interior of the new nation until such time as the new Palestine has sufficient arms and forces to protect their own coasts, borders and the interior.

Step 3: Allow any and all Palestinians to settle in the new nation now known as Palestine. Settlement will involve sufficient housing and property, which may lead to occasional forfeitures by remaining residents of the state formerly known as Florida.

Step 4: Encourage any and all current residents to remain in the new nation of Palestine, formerly known as the state of Florida as long as they are willing to surrender their United States citizenship and apply for Palestinian citizenship. Those who are chosen to stay will be subject to Palestinian law.

Step 5: Those who chose to leave, or have their applications denied will be forced to deport to an undisclosed refugee camp until such time as they can be assimilated into the remainder of the United States.

Are we moving toward a "Greater Isreal" as described on zionist radio talk shows. Are West Bank concession and other peace efforts just a facade to hide a much greater agenda.

hmm i thought democracies didnt attack each other? Israel is the worlds number one terrorist state.

They say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting a different result. Born out of "an eye for an eye" approach in Israel, and a similarly dead-end approach by jihadists who should have learned that as long ago as 1967 the small nation of Israel when attached by many Arab neighbors not only won, but occupied land and dictated how and when things would be done there for decades, that this "insanity" would be seen as such.

There will NEVER be an end to this constant back and forth hatred until one side decides to use a different approach. Say, for example, Israel had gone to the International Community to point out that nothing was done to Hezbollah to provoke them from entering Israeli land to capture 2 soldiers and then wait to see what, if any, response was proferred by the rest of the world? Then, and only then, if no response of any substance were provided would they then get any support for the massive escalation this tragedy is now becoming.

The chances of eliminating jihadists in this manner is astoundingly short-sighted. The creation of replacement jihadists for any taken or killed will perpetuate this hatred again, and again, and again, and ag....

Craig:

"Born out of "an eye for an eye" approach in Israel, and a similarly dead-end approach by jihadists who should have learned that as long ago as 1967 the small nation of Israel when attached by many Arab neighbors not only won..."

In 1967, Israel was not attacked by many Arab neighbors. In 1967, Israel invaded Egypt and bombed its entire airforce on the ground. Israel called it a preemptive strike. After this aggression, Israel took over West Bank, Gaza, Eastern Jerusalem, Golan Heights against the will of its millions of residents.

See the following link for an accurate presentation of the events:

http://www.usatoday.com/graphics/news/gra/gisrael2/flash.htm

Since its controversial birth in 1948, Israel has used terror, force and mass expulsion of natives to advance its colonist policy.

This is no small weak nation. It is a mad, hysterical and highly militarized nation and one the major exporters of weapons in the world.

The Washington Post should stop thinking it's virtuous to be "even-handed" in the battle between terrorists and the countries they attack. Katyusha rockets aimed at cities where they can fall on any civilian and suicide bombers who explode in pizza parlors full of teens are true examples of collective punishment because they affect the lives of every citizen. Israel's actions, by contrast, are directly targeted on terrorists. Taking out the Beruit airport, for example, is to prevent terrorist resupply and to prevent the hostages being shipped to Hezbollah's masters in Iran.

Karim, you are distorting history. In May 1967 Egypt blockaded Israel at the Straits of Tiran. A blockade is an Act of War -- check any reference book on Acts of War and you will see that. Egypt also demanded the withdrawal of UN buffer forces in the Sinai. When the UN troops withdrew, Egypt moved three army divisions and 600 tanks into the Sinai. On May 17 Cairo radio broadcast: "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel." With a blockade, armies massing against Israel's border from three directions, and bellicose was broadcasts from all Arab media (endless quotes are available) Israel was smart indeed to take out the Egyptian air force before the Arab assault could occur. In 1973, by contrast, Israel held back on any pre-emptive strike to prove to the world who was the aggressor and paid too heavy a price. Too many Israelis dies for that restraint.

Michael,

Palestinian suicide bombings are generally understood as acts of despair by an oppressed people who are still enduring a 39 years old military siege, with no rights whatsoever.

Bombing a power generator and cutting water to almost 1 million people by a state that enjoys unmatched military supremacy is collective punishment.

Israeli officials don't even hide their desire for revenge. I can submit statements if you wish.

The Lebanese airport is civilian, and is not used for shipping weapons. This has been stated by the Lebanese government.

Again, as the EU stated, this is a clear violation of international law.

Israel, as it always had, is simply punishing innocent people.

There is no defined army for it to fight, so they attack civilian targets and institutions.

Michael:

Let me start with one important statement:

Israeli Prime Minister Begin:

"In June, 1967, we again had a choice. the Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him" (New York Times, August 21, 1982)

The straits are in international waters, not in Israel territory. Besides, at the time, Israel was not really using the port that goes through the Straits. Israel still had access to international waters from the other side. Egypt's action could have been resolved by the security council.

Egypt did not invade a single inch of Israeli territoriy in 1967.

Israel invaded and bombed the country from land, sea and air.

Israel killed 21,000 Arabs in this aggression, and injured 45,000 people. Israel only lost about 800 people.

It is also in 1967 when Israel attacked the USS liberty and kiled a dozen US servicemen.

Your Zionist spin will not go unchecked.

People will sooner or later realize that Israel, a tiny state of 6 million people, has so much Arab blood on its hands.

If you add 21,000 dead on top of 19,000 people killed in Lebanon by Israel, that is about 40,000 people already. I am not counting the other 2 wars.

Well, reading all this just sicken me.
Israel won't achieve anything at all if it doesn't put boots in lebanon. You want to rip the hezbollah out of lebanon, well do it on the ground, an urban war is the only way ! You can drop as many bombs as you want, but you won't win that war! Right now all Israel is doing is destroying a country, but hezbollah will always be there and they will prevail, end of the story. So show some cojones and drop some boots in hezbollah strongholds in Berouth, ok?

David Browning wrote:
"Imagine part of the USA was occupied by Mexico. No doubt US citizens would refain from any efforts to overturn this outrage."

Yes but how would we get it back? Would we strap bombs to young people and send them to Mexico City restaurants and bus stops? Would we kidnap Mexican soldiers from Mexico and behead them? Would we hide in people's homes and use them as shields while we fired rockets into Mexico's cities, then call blame civilian deaths on Mexico? Face it, both side have lost their morality and have sunk to levels not seen since the middle ages. Hate erodes morality. If God thought Sodom and Gamorrah were evil places, he has not visited the Middle East of today. It is so bad that if you mention peace with Israel it could cost you your life. If you mention withdrawing to the 1967 borders you could get beaten up. I think Israel has one right idea, a wall. Maybe the world should build a wall around all of Israel and Palistine, and occassionally send satallites overhead to see how they are doing, but at least they would leave the rest of the world in peace while they fight their continuous war.

Karim wrote:
"Hezbollah attacked a military target, you can't call that terrorism."

No, it was an act of war. And war is the result. What is sad is that Hezbollah, which is a political party in Lebanon, on its own deliberately plunged the entire country into war. No one in the Lebanese government approved this. Why can a political party take it upon itself to plunge its nation into war? Maybe Hezbollah could care less about the rest of Lebanon?

Emil Cohen

Just as soon as they change the word "arrest" in 'Israel arrests Hamas officials' - it should be 'Israel kidnaps Hamas officials.'

Its elementary. The media already abuses words in favor of your ideology. Don't get so greedy.

Yes, Israel certainly has the right to defend herself. That implies on her soil. As soon as anyone defends himself on someone else's territory, it is called an attack.

What I find very interesting here, is that Israel has admitted, publicly, that they are committing War Crimes, and yet there is no outrage. We are debating history (in itself futile) when we should be condemning a government (I can't beleive I have to write Israel here, but I know there are those who will purposefully misunderstand) whose policy of total reprisal is Illegal, Immoral, and outrageous.

I agree with Sully. I think its pretty obvious Hezbollah is operating with its own agenda in mind, the rest of Lebanon be damned. Its a shame because just recently the WaPo had a nice article about Beruit and how it was coming back since the 80's. Overall I think most of these religious fringe groups are operating with their own agenda in mind and really don't care how their actions affect the rest of the population. They claim to speak for the masses, or know better or all the other things people say when they want to control someone else. These types of actions though will continue until the people decide they've had enough and start refusing these clowns a safe haven. I can't see any scenario where Isreal would be in Lebanon if these guys weren't firing rockets into their cities. Seems like a pretty easy solution if you're Lebanese and want peace. Kick 'em out.

Its like letting drug dealers run your block, nothing good is ever going to come from it. They're bullies and they'll always fade in the face of a unified neighborhood.

well it's terrible to see what's happening... Olmert! you either go all the way or... you stop right now!
You are showing your weakness rather than your strong side...you are not Sharon the butcher. period. Is that what you want to show? that you are better than Sharon? that you have some cojones?
Well you are weak, you fell in an Hezbollah trap...
You are destroying a country for what...2 soldiers ? at the end of all this terrible mess you will achieve nothing, nothing... it's pathetic...
So what! you are going to repeat 1982...wow! well done buddy! Did you achieve anything then...NO!
Just put some boots there, go all the way, occupy Lebanon, then go to war with Syria, and wait for Iran to drop a nuke on Jerusalem, then you can retaliate...wow! I am impressed! fantastic!

Are we going to see a repeat of Sabra and Shatilla. Are the zionist looking for a final solution to the Palestinian Refugee "Problem"?
Deja vu all over again.

A few points.

First, the UN is a joke. Anyone who doesn't realize its a joke should pass me over some of whatever they are imbibing. The only reason the UN ever had a good name is because people mistook its actions for 40 years as the actions that were actually done by NATO. Nothing said by the UN in this day and age means anything anymore.

Second, Israel has previously made unilateral moves to try and create peace in the region. It was less than a year ago that Israel disbanded their settlements in Gaza, and what was the result? Palestinian terrorists fire rockets at Israel from the land those settlements used to be on.

Third, why would the Jews listen to anyone else on how they should defend themselves anymore? Why should they listen to an international community that has spent the past 2000 plus years killing, maiming and deporting them? Israel tried the negotiating table, and much more seriously than Arafat ever did. It didn't work. Maybe it's time to put the fear of God into the terrorist world. History has shown that the most effective way to create change and respect in other countries is to either beat them or spend them into submission. Germany and Japan, who despised the US, Britain and France pre-WW2, reformed their countries in the images of the countries that beat them. The USSR disbanded because the US government spent them into oblivion. Unfortunately, as long as oil is the major source of energy in the world there are plenty of funds that can funnel to terrorist organizations, so Israel cannot spend them into the ground. That only leaves option A.

"Are we moving toward a "Greater Isreal" as described on zionist radio talk shows. Are West Bank concession and other peace efforts just a facade to hide a much greater agenda."

You are on the right track John - think it through - the next stop is Syria soon to be followed by Iran (using other countries forces of course) - it may take another 20 years but the ultimate goal is Russia and then in 50 years we will hear the same old cries of well our ancestors were here 1000 years ago and were expelled to Israel!!!!

Karim:

Your repetitive posting of anti-Israel propaganda is tiresome and silly.

"Your Zionist spin will not go unchecked."

And your nasty seething is childish. So I will debate with you no longer.

Just a note:

Has anyone here actually READ the information that Jefferson linked to? The one with Michael Young is especially illuminating.

Of course, I'm interested in this dialogue, or I wouldn't wouldn't be participating--BUT I think it's wild how passionate and righteous (we) people in the US are about Israel's actions and occasional civilian deaths caused, while in Iraq there are probably 60 civilians killed a day as a result of a war that OUR country decided to pursue and the turmoil that has followed. Why aren't we more passionate about those lives, and the righteousness of our action there? The numbers simply dwarf anything going on in the Palestinian territories, or currently in Lebanon. BTW--I'm not against (or particularly for) the War in Iraq. I think we're there and have a responsibility to see things through. My point/question is---Why are we so passionate about the Lebanon issue and relatively disinterested in day-to-day Iraq civilian deaths? Thoughts?
Have a good day people. And, remember, there is no black and white. It's grey.

Sully wrote:

"No, it was an act of war. And war is the result."

So is occupying 3.8 million Palestinians against their will with military force, restricting their freedom of movement, denying them basic political rights, confiscating their lands, and evicting their people out of their homes, for 39 years, not an act of war?

Please do not insult our intelligence.

Hezbollah attacked few Israeli soldiers, it was wrong alright, but it does call for all of this.

Israel routinely violates Lebanese air space with impunity and has in the past financed with money and weapons a portion of the Lebanese population (SLA) to fight against their own country.

Imagine a foreign nation arming another group in another country to fight their own people.

This is Israel that we are dealing with, not Switzerland.

saxyboy,

Sorry if I offended you but what is wrong with writing "Zionist spin"?

You qualified my postings as "propaganda".

You can't treat me like Israeli treat Palestinians.

If you wish to debate with me, well you should be prepared to do it on equal footing.

Is everyone who sees Israel's points of view or judges their actions more morally high-grounded than Hamas/PLO/Hisbollah points of view a 'Zionist'. I really don't know. It's usually used with a connotation which sounds negative--and it seems like anyone who has a point of view that isn't strictly pro-Palestinian actions and comments is a 'Zionist' and their opinions are known as propaganda. That doesn't help the people with pro-Palestinian/Hamas points of view win over anyone--by dismissing them as radicals. I for one, am not Jewish, not a radical on Israel or any other subject I can think of,
but think it is very silly to hear the way posts in these papers and many Arab reporting avenues are so diversive in their treatment of people who may not have the same opinions. FYI---There's not that many Jews in the USA. There are only a lot of Zionists if you define it by my definition above. . .

Karim:

"You can't treat me like Israeli treat Palestinians."

Wow, you really are thin skinned, aren't you? All I said was I don't wish to debate with you (and I won't any longer), and I find your hysterical postings, where you simply spew anti-Israel propaganda - to be repetitive and childish. You say the same thing every time you are on these boards, Karim. Every time. Think about it.

And for you to use the phrase "equal footing" while you accuse everyone who disagrees with you of being Zionist spinsters, is truly funny.

I have to go now. My friends from The Lobby are meeting me for lunch.

Have the last word about me. Forever.

On us.

I continue to become more alarmed by Israel's war like response to Gaza,Beirout, etc. Certainly these simplistic countries have made some serious mistakes these past few weeks to anger Israel but not to the extend to bomb them, kill innocent people, destroy their livelyhoods, etc. It seems that Israel has crossed the point of no return -the Arab world and many other countries are furious. Israel has lost all credibility. Only the USA is supporting them. We are close to a serious worldwar. There is a lot more at stake than just the price of gas. As I mentioned before, Israel does not belong there and obviously is on the way out. I am an American.

The arab world is furious with Israel. . .? Weird, we're normally so even-handed . . .

It's not just the Arab world that is furious with Israel (and, by association, the United States). The whole world is furious with them, and with us. Winning hearts and minds just got a lot harder. Thanks, #1 ally!

While the hostage situation is important to both sides, the air strikes by Israel and the rocket attacks by Hizbullah take it to another level. Without a settlement, the rocket attacks will force Israel to move into Lebanon to create a buffer zone that would prevent them from reaching Israel. As long as this threat remains, Israel will be forced to occupy part of Southern Lebanon. However, If it remains in Lebanon, it may face an insurgency similar to what the U.S. has faced in Iraq. A sweep through Lebanon destroying some buildings and capturing some weapons will not solve the problem. Hizbullah will fade into the general population or make a temporary retreat. Unless Israel occupies some ground to push back the rockets, Northern Israel will be under threat. If it stays in Lebanon, the IDF will take some light casualties, but, over time, the numbers could become substantial. Any move against Syria would see similar results.

The situation is becoming very dangerous.

Israel is still bombing Southern Beirut using naval warships, and Lebanese forces seem to be firing back at them from Beirut.

The Israeli response has crossed the red line. What have people in Beirut done to them???

This can lead to a real regional war.

The Arab governments must act to save Lebanese from this arrogant Israeli government that knows no limits.

As an Arab I condemn their relative silence. It is shameful.

The oil weapon should be considered.

Tom: Winning hearts and minds just got a lot harder. Thanks, #1 ally!

Times have changed. Look what is happening in Iraq- we (USA) are loosing our shirt. Why - because we have zilch understanding of what we are doing there! Israel after 60 years is falling into the same quagmire. It needs to open up, integrate, etc. If not it's days are numbered - simple reality.

"However, If it remains in Lebanon, it may face an insurgency similar to what the U.S. has faced in Iraq."

I don't think Israel has any qualms about bombing buildings full of civilians at the mere suspicion of a militant hiding there. They probably will not have quite the same problems as the Americans in Iraq since everything within a ten mile radius of an Israeli patrol or post will be rubble.

Karim:

The major Arab governments, excluding Iran (so Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia) want Hezbollah and other radical Islamic groups gone nearly as much as the Israelis do. Notice how Saudi Arabia will often stand up and beat their chests and yell and scream whenever anything happens in Gaza or the West Bank, but they never actually do anything? And do you notice how Israel would VERY gladly let Egypt take Gaza and Jordan take the West Bank, but neither of those countries have any desire to do so? It's because they view the extremist terrorist groups as more of a threat than they view Israel.

To everyone:
When people talk about anti-semitism in the light of anti-Israel sentiment, they are not talking about the blatant anti-semitism and racism of 50 years ago. Instead it is sort of the lingering, festering, low key acceptable in the modern day racism. It's the kind of racism that makes many peoples hearts beat a little faster when a few African American youths are walking behind them for a couple of blocks or makes someone say "He Jewed me" when they got ripped off. The problem is, when times get rough, this type of prejudice boils over from (relatively) harmless things like the above to true, actual hatred. The US hasn't seen a truly "rough" time, by world standards, in a long time, if at all.

Does the jewish state reaction belong to the civilized world we live in today. Two soldiers captured by Hezbullah and one solidier in Palestine.handreds of civlians killed including in some instance all families members,infrastructures,aiports and schools are destroyed.Now if the jewish state got back the three soldiers who will bring the deads to thier families.
I do not see prospect of peace in midle east between 300million arabs and 4-5 million jews. Israel is investing in hater unfortunately with full USA military ,political and financial support. What does USA veto in security counsel yesterday means other than green light to israel to kill more arabs.USA has no longer a great leaders ;those who built it in the past to be what it is now ,but unfortunately fell lately in the hand of theolog./political leaders who believe destruction of middle east....God help poor people who are caught in the midlle of Jewish/US goverment and Hezbullah attacks

People are quick to say "Lebanese civilians, who have absolutely no control over the events that are unfolding are not to blame." What few people realize is that in exercising their freedom to vote, they elected 20% of their parliament from Hezbollah. Three of their ministers are also from Hezbollah. They new exactly what they were doing and are now suffering the same consequences as the Palestinian people, who also under free elections, voluntarily elected a known terrorist organization as their government. Spare me the innocent civilian defense. When your elected officials operate under the publicly known doctrine of wiping out another sovereign country (Israel) from the face of the earth, what do you really expect?

Good afternoon,

I am Lebanese and have lived in North America for 20 years now.

I am pained to see my country destabilized and harmed once more by the actions of a violent faction I do not at all support (Hezbollah) and by the brutal, undescerning reaction of Israel. I am worried for family members, especially my young sister who is 6 months pregnant and lives in Beirut.

Hezbollah's actions are inexcusable and Israel absolutely needs to protect its citizens. However that should not give the Israeli army carte blanche to ravage Lebanon like there was no tomorrow. There is a difference between protection and blatant aggression.

By bombing the airport, cell towers, a power plant, bridges and roads, the Israeli army perhaps limits Hezbollah's activities - a little. What is certain, is that it is crippling a small country working hard to get back on its feet after a 16 year war.

It is destabilizing and terrorising civilians who count on this infrastructure to conduct their daily business. Men and women like my brother-in-law trying to solidify his small consulting business to feed his young family or my childhood friends who invested all they had in a beach resort now deserted by fleeing tourists.

I am disappointed at President Bush's dismissive reaction to the graveness of the situation: "Israel has to be able to defend itself". Yes, but what constitutes a fair and appropriate defense and what does not? Is it moral to destroy a country and its economy to punish an action carried out by a few? Do you treat a cancer by maiming the body here and there?

Hour by hour, as I read the news, and as I see familiar roads and sites go up in flames, my indignation and anxiety rise.

I am sure that many Israelis feel that their goverment has taken things too far. They know the horrors of war only too well, and how civilians always end up being sacrificial lambs.

I condemn Hezbollah and resent their actions, but it is towards Israel that I turn expectantly, hoping that it will choose fairly and with as much care as possible how it will retaliate.

Hezbollah is better equipped than the Lebanese army and cannot be reigned in by Lebanon alone. In fact, if the Lebanese army tried to reign them in, we would certainly be faced with a very bloody civil war between Shiites, Christians and Sunites (not to mention the rest)

I think the Israeli representative said it best in his encounter with the Palestinan delegate in the UN hallway: "Palestinians must be in love with the Israeli occupation." Over the past 2 years all Israel has talked about is pulling back from occupied territories. Not only has it talked, but it also follwed through with its pullback from Gaza last year. Ever since, the Palestinian terrorist groups have done everything in their power to get the Israelis back into town -- rocket attacks, kidnappings, and attacks on the Gaza-Israel border. And now, somehow, they are shocked when the Israeli forces re-enter Gaza... Is anyone else out there surprised?

I am American and don't really have a preference towards the Lebanese, Palestinians, or Israelis. But it seems to me that this whole thing could have been avoided if no one was ever kidnapped. Even the Arab leaders like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Jordan have clearly come out and said that Hezbula was wrong.

I feel bad for the people of Lebanon. Some are clearly against Hezbula because they know that by supporting, they nightmares would come true as they are happening today. But if Lebanon can't fight off Hezbula alone, then why can't they ask for help? I am sure that the US, UN, and EU would all be more than happy to get them out of the region. Everybody would win. Israel would not have an excuse to go into Lebanon anymore. Lebanon would get ready of the Hezbula, and the region would become so much more stable. Who know, maybe Lebanon would become the third neighbor to sign a peace agreement with Israel.

If Lebanon is really serious about getiing Hezbula out, and they know they can't do it alone, there is no shame in asking for the rest of the world for help -- especially for a cause as noble as rooting out a terrorist group from your backyard.

In the mean time, I hope and pray for the Lebanese people that are against the terrorists, and that only want their country back

Lisa:

Thanks for that sincere post. Best wishes to your family and loved ones over there.

Here is a link to a blog that is plugged into a network of Israeli and Lebanese bloggers who are communicating with each other up to the minute.

http://ontheface.blogware.com/

Rubble can provide a good defensive position in conventional warfare. But, with an insurgency, They can plan attacks against isolated positions or individuals. They do not need to take or hold positions. They kill and disappear.

Jennifer,

it is unfortunately more complicated than it seems. Although a lot of people in Lebanon do not support Hezbollah, there is also a good portion of the population that does.

If the US or another country came in to "oust" Hezbollah from the country, it would start a civil war between those that support Hezbollah and those that don't.

It is sometimes very difficult for Americans to understand the complexities of Middle Eastern politics, and they offer simple solutions that might work here, but that could not work over there.

Here's the main reason why: In the US, there is one and only one army and one goverment controlling the country. In the Middle East, there are often different factions or militias (like armed mafias or mobs) that co-exist with the "official" army. And when there is a disruption in the country, all these militias take to the streets and start killing whomever they don't agree with. This causes a lot of stability and civil wars, which is why dictatorships sometimes work better in certain countries. They bring harm, but they also bring stability.

Thank you for your wishes, and I hope that one day we will attain peace or relative peace there.

Lisa:

Is there a specific region in Lebanon where Hezbollah fighters are concentrated, or are they in pockets througout the country?

Thanks Saxyboy, I am going to check it out now.

They are concentrated in the south (which is the border with Israel), and in the suburbs of southern Beirut. But they don't operate from distinct bases, they are very much interspersed with civilians.

Lebanon is very small (4/5 of the size of Connecticut) and it is densly populated, especially along the coast. The total population is about 3.5 million.

Beirut alone has 2 million people and it is built right on the Mediterranean coast. So if you strike there, it is virtually impossible not to cause collateral damage.

I see there is a consenus on Isreal's action. We need immediate way of organizing and marching on Washington. every moral fiber in me saying that this is wrong. Lebanon is going to be wronged by a hateful Isreali regime.

Israel wants to create a democracy in Lebanon as America wanted to create democracy in Iraq. Did you hear what Isreali Ambassador to the UN said.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/mideast_conflict

Isreal is going to look like crap after this. And the U.S. is looking more like a controled a proxy.

From SG:

"People are quick to say "Lebanese civilians, who have absolutely no control over the events that are unfolding are not to blame." What few people realize is that in exercising their freedom to vote, they elected 20% of their parliament from Hezbollah. Three of their ministers are also from Hezbollah. They new exactly what they were doing and are now suffering the same consequences as the Palestinian people, who also under free elections, voluntarily elected a known terrorist organization as their government. Spare me the innocent civilian defense. When your elected officials operate under the publicly known doctrine of wiping out another sovereign country (Israel) from the face of the earth, what do you really expect?"

So what's your suggestion kill them all? What about those under 18 who did not vote or those who did not vote for HEzbollah or can't stand them - are they just unfortunate to be in the way of the israeli defence (thats a joke) force...

There are none so dumb as those who won't think....

NIE,

Thank you for sharing your views.

The Saudi government doesn't do anything because it is not a true representation of the Saudi people, and neither is the Egyptian government. Saudi Arabia has spent over 200 billion dollars on US made weapons.

The Saudi officials are trying to appear "reasonable" for the sake of the Bush administration after its image was tarnished because of 9-11. No high ranking Saudi official ever condemned the US invasion of Iraq directly.

The Egyptian officials, well, they don't want to lose the few billion dollars of US aid.

Notice that the 2 nations that have been attacked by Israel with the fully support of the US government have freely elected governments.

You claimed that Israel would gladly leave Gaza and the WB, that is not true.

They are still expanding settlements in the WB.

All this arguing about who did what to whom is not productive. Is like debating that a house is on fire so what flame caused the other flame. Go back to 1948 and figure out who started the fire and whose house was (is) it - Israel? Don't think so.

Israel (Jews in the region). Think so.

"The Saudi government doesn't do anything because it is not a true representation of the Saudi people, and neither is the Egyptian government."

And neither is any other Arab government. Goes without saying.

"Notice that the 2 nations that have been attacked by Israel with the fully support of the US government have freely elected governments."

Unfortunately those freely elected governments do not govern their countries. The terror organizations do.

"You claimed that Israel would gladly leave Gaza and the WB, that is not true."

News update: It has already left Gaza a year ago. Would have left the WB too, but thanks to the efforts of the terror organizations and their puppet masters in Iran and Syria, that seems less and less likely.

Posted by: Arnie | July 13, 2006 10:24 PM

Is it not ironic that Israeli jails are filled with predominately Palestinians, and that U.S. jails are filled with predominately ________?

..er... BLACKS??

Three Israeli soldiers are abducted. Israel responds by killing somet 60 innocent civilians, and counting. More of the same murderous, outlaw, totally disproportionate behaviour by Israel. And people wonder why Israel is so hated in the Middle East! It's as though they set out to do everything in their power to be despised by their neighbors.

"I see there is a consenus on Isreal's action."

You need to have your eyesight checked in a hurry.

"We need immediate way of organizing and marching on Washington. every moral fiber in me saying that this is wrong. Lebanon is going to be wronged by a hateful Isreali regime."

Organizing marches in Washington may make you feel better about yourself but it will accomplish nothing. There is one man who can bring the fighting to a halt in an instant, and it's the same man who started it. He does not live in Washington or in Jerusalem but in Beirut, and his name is Hassan Nasrallah. He is the one who should be forced to stop this, and only the Arabs can accomplish that.

"Israel wants to create a democracy in Lebanon as America wanted to create democracy in Iraq."

Don't be ridiculous. Israel could not care less about the regime in Lebanon, as long as the border is quiet.

It's high time that the US finally stopped all funding of the occupation and settlements. We need to cut off all funding and diplomatic support until they remove every settler from the West Bank and east Jerusalem and quit the occupation completely. Only after that could the US be in a postition to assist Israel in the region without being completly hypocritical with regard to the standards that we set for other countries in the region.

The fact that the US tolerates the settlements for even one minute brings shame and disrepute upon us.

I think it's fair to say that the settler movement and the occupation that supports it are one of the Key factors that led to 9/11, although the media and government in the US absolutely never make even a hint about this connection.

Now, here we are again, about to pay (at the pumps, in the stock market, and at the cost of the further inflammation of the war on terror simply because Isreal will not agree to simply unconditionally quit lands that they stole in the first place and which the entire world (even we officailly condemn the settlements) condemns.

I mean, Look at the inequity here. Before the first kidnapping, Israel had indisciminantly bombed a beach party, slaugtering innocent men women and children. They then bombed other areas in gaza also killing numerous innocent men women and children in an effort to assasinate hamas military leaders. The death toll of innocent Palestinian people in the 2 weeks before this event was 15 or 20. Converesly, the rockets that were being fired into israel have a mortality rate of about 1 person per year if they are fired consistently. They are wildly innacurate.

Currently, there are 3 Israeli hostages (all miltary people).

There are about 9000 Palestinian prisoners.

The total mortality rate due to the conflict for palestinains is about 3 to every israeli with a very large number of palestinian children included in those figures.

Currently, the palestinians illegally hold and occupy 0% of Israeli lands.

Israel holds about %90 of all Palestinian lands and is working hard to populate that land with Israelis to ensure that the Palestinians will never get it back.

To suggest that the situation is unfair is a gross understatement. That's why every one else in the entire world condemns the situation other than Israel and the US.

Finally, as a Republican,It pains me to see Bush paralyzed about the entire situation, when the only thing that empowers any of the people who are perpetrating these kidnappings are the ongoing presence of the settlements and the occupation. Settlements and an occupation That the US is literally paying for.

In the mean time, every Israeli bomb that falls, every child that is killed, every human right that is trampled upon is seen as being paid for and backed by the US government by Arabs and Muslims around the World. This is really going to win hearts and minds in this trillion dollars plus (and still counting) war on terror that we are fighting.

I just wish someone in Congress or the White House would grow a spine and put an end to this Fiasco once and for all.

J

Posted by: Arnie | July 13, 2006 10:24 PM

Is it not ironic that Israeli jails are filled with predominately Palestinians, and that U.S. jails are filled with predominately ________?

..er... BLACKS??

Interesting answer Sue.....I wonder what other participants of this blog would answer? Do you see any parallel social circumstances between Palestinians and Blacks, or any other oppressed people?

"Converesly, the rockets that were being fired into israel have a mortality rate of about 1 person per year if they are fired consistently. They are wildly innacurate."

Last week alone The Palestinians launched 800 of those rockets into Israel. Since you seem to think they can cause no damage or loss of life, you would not mind living in the area covered by those rockets, am I correct?

Michael O.,

That's exactly my point. 800 rockets. How many casualties? ( no deaths , I believe) The Israeli rockets have killed 15 to 20 innocents BEFORE the kidnappings, and 90 or more in the Gaza alone after.

So let me ask you a question. If the Israelis came here and said that your house and the land it was built on, in fact your whole city belonged to them, would you just sit and take it? Would you allow your children to be born into occupation and statelessness and not do anything about it?

I think not.

As far as I'm concerned Nasrallah can go screw himself. He desereves what he gets. But the Palestinians deserve to be freed. All of them. And only the US can do it.

Has it not occured to you that by allowing the Occupation and Settelments to linger, we play right into the hands of Islamic Extremists who rely on that situation for recruitment and sympathy?

J

I subscribe to LWP's notion that the tit-for-tat goes back so far it's pointless trying to decide who did what first.
But what is notable to me is that America insisted democracy needed to be planted in the Middle East because "democracies don't make war on each other".

Well, there are now two truly elected Arab governments, Palestine and Lebanon, and both are being invaded by another democracy, Israel.

And the very same people who swallowed the US Govt's "democratisation" crap hook, line, and sinker, are now saying that Lebanese civilians are legitimate targets BECAUSE they had elections. So much for the blessings of democracy in the Middle East.

So tell me, David and others touting this line...Israel elected as PM Menachem Begin, who directed the terroristic blowing-up of the King David Hotel, which killed many innocent Jews as well as Britons. Begin also ordered the despicable assassination of Count Bernadotte, a man who had saved thousands of Jews from Himmler's clutches.

Israel also elected as PM Ariel Sharon, who personally led a death squad in the terroristic massacres of at least two villages (Qibya and Bureij). Sharon's massacre at Qibya was condemned by the National Jewish Post in the US as "another Lidice".

Israelis elected these terrorists and regard them as fathers of their nation. I guess by your logic that makes Israeli civilians legitimate targets.

"That's exactly my point. 800 rockets. How many casualties? ( no deaths , I believe) The Israeli rockets have killed 15 to 20 innocents BEFORE the kidnappings, and 90 or more in the Gaza alone after."

You did not answer my question. Would you live within range of those rockets?

Since I don't believe I'll get a straight answer, let me suggest another, simpler approach: Instead of being mired in meaningless calculations of how many innocents are killed per rocket on each side, try to calculate how many would be killed on both sides if the Palestinians stopped launching rockets into Israeli towns. The answer is: 0.

"So let me ask you a question. If the Israelis came here and said that your house and the land it was built on, in fact your whole city belonged to them, would you just sit and take it? Would you allow your children to be born into occupation and statelessness and not do anything about it?"

First, this is not what happened. Second, what actually did happen is totally irrelevant to the topic of this discussion.

"As far as I'm concerned Nasrallah can go screw himself. He desereves what he gets."

But so far no one is giving him what he deserves, so this task falls to Israelis by default. So what exactly is your complaint?

"But the Palestinians deserve to be freed. All of them."

Why? The Palestinians in Israeli jails are there because they have committed acts of terror against Israel. The terror organizations announce daily their intentions to continue attacking Israel until it is eradicated. If Israel frees the prisoners they are sure to rejoin their organizations and resume their attacks. What country in its right mind would free them?

"And only the US can do it."

It cannot and it shouldn't, or it will be contributing to the perpetuation of terror. Only the Palestinians can do it. If there is a comprehensive peace agreement and the terror organizations lay down their arms, then of course the prisoners should be released. So far we are nowhere near this scenario.

"Has it not occured to you that by allowing the Occupation and Settelments to linger, we play right into the hands of Islamic Extremists who rely on that situation for recruitment and sympathy?"

Again, what does it have to do with what we are discussing here? Did Nasrallah say anything about occupation and settlements? Do you understand what this man is doing and what he is aiming for?

O.D.,

I agree with your main point, although I disagree with your first assertion, that the "tit for Tat" somehow is too complicated to determise who is at fault.

The presence of the settlements is one sin that is unmatched by the Palestinians. It preceded and has persisted during the vast majority of the violence between the two sides. 40 plus years of Occupation. It's almost too horrible to imagine much less live through.

It is unacceptable situation for any nation.

We here in America started an insurgency against the English over taxes. Imagine what we would do if we were forcibly occupied by another nation who then tried to build settlements on our territory.

I agree with the notion that arguing endlessly over tit for tat is pointless, but the settlements are certainly the cause of almost all of the violence for the last 40 years. Even the Israelis must agree in that they are ready to give up the notion of a greater Israel due to 40 years of pointless violence that has resulted in nothing but the economic and moral crippling of their otherwise vibrant society.

We just need to help them along by cutting off the money until they finally fully comply with the demands of the rest of the world.

It's like the tough love you would show to an alcoholic relation whose life has been destroyed by years of delusional and dysfunctional thinking brought about by excessive drinking. Cut off the money, and they will no longer be able to afford to persist in their dysfunctional behavior and may actually start to seek real help and join the rest of society again.

I guess such actions usually take place when the growing problems caused by the alcholic start to adversely affect the lives of other family members.

I guess that Israel reached that state with the US a long time ago and the time for an intervention is long overdue.

J

Quelle Surprise!!

I had to come back and check this out as I knew the same old apologists for the Israeli war machine would be here rushing to defend the latest atrocities by their democratic state ..... (btw has anyone considered that Olmert may NOT be running the show and the military is in power?)..

Is there any action you guys won't defend ...if the pre genocidal murder of women and children isn't beyond the pale to you guys what is?

I suspect nothing - as long as it's carried out in the name of Zionism - your lives are more important than anyone and everyone else's......

Watch this space ladies and Gentlemen - look at how many times Syria and Iran are mentioned and don't be surprised when our press starts talking about American boots on the ground in these countries...

This war has been planned for 6 years by the IAF and dumbass Nasrallah gave them the catalyst..

Vive Zidane!!

Michael O.,

No I would not live in an area that was being bombarded with any type of rocket fire. The reason I do not have to make the choice is because, at least lately (from a historical perspective) the U.S. does not occupy and then slowly steal the land of it's neighbors while also preventing them forming their own fully fledged country.

If we did, then I guarntee you such decisions would be necessary.

With regard to the history of the settlements, well the best source to go to would be the settlers, who beleive in a " greater Israel" which would not include any of the Palestinain poeple, but would include all of their land. They believe all the Palestinains they will displace should just move to Jordan. They Justify their behavior either through religious beliefs or through ultrnationalist ideology. They are despised by a great many Israeli's for their Beliefs and actions and for the plauge of violence and and international infamy they have brought about.

When I say " the Palestinains should be freed. All of them" I don't just mean the 9000 prisoners. (a few of whom may actually belong in prison) I mean all of the Palestinians. People who live under occupation are not free. Especially when the occupiers increasinly move their own citizens onto occupied territory and claim it for their own. (There are currently 400,000 plus settlers in the West Bank and East Jeruslalem and those numbers are growing)

With regard to Nasrallah, he is an extremeist whose agenda far exceeds the desires of most Palestinian people. But we empower him, and everyone else like him, by allowing the morally bankrupt settlements and occupation to persist.
take away the settlements and the occupation and guys like him and Bin Laden
are immediatley much poorer and lonlier.
The Palestinian situation is inexticably linked to Hezbollah. Again, remove the settlements and the occuaption, and Hezbollah is left without a cause except one that is condemned by almost every nation in the world.

We (the US) condemn the settlements because they are morally wrong and every nation in the world knows it. To remove them, regardless of what else is happening is not giving in to terrorism. It is simply righting a terrible wrong. And once it is put right, it will, as Bill Clinton put it, remove the Philosophical underpinnings of terrorist recruitment in the Middle East".

Keep in mind that whatever else you think about Clinton, he sat at the top of the information pyramid for a long time and I don't think that you could consider him to be ill informed on the subject.

J

I didn't actually say, J, that it's impossible to determine where original fault lies. I merely said it was pointless.

Yes, one can look back to 1948. But if we're going back in time to establish previous ownership, what's to stop us going back 2500 years to the Kingdom of David, when the Jews were kicked off this land?

I think the Israelis have mostly given up their greater Israel designs. And the occupation of Lebanon was the biggest factor in persuading them to do it. Nobody in the IDF wants a repeat of that mess.

This time, Israel really does believe it's being provoked. But like America, who can't get anyone to take them seriously over Iranian WMD after they lied about Iraq, Israel is the state that cried wolf once too often.

Last time they invaded Lebanon, it was done on the flimsiest of pretexts, with the real goal of annexing Lebanon south of the Litani river into a Greater Israel.

The supposed barrage of Katyushas into northern Israel that preceded that invasion was later admitted in the Knesset by Rabin to have been almost completely fabricated by Sharon and Begin.

This time, the rockets are real enough. This time, I think the Israelis really weren't looking for a fight, but given their history it's not surprising that nobody believes them or trusts their motives.

What drives this attack is Israeli politics. Olmert is trapped by the overriding political need in Israel for leaders to look tough or face electoral wipeout. There are no other options left, because Israel has deliberately subverted moderate voices in neighbouring countries so it can pretend it has no partner for negotiation. Negotiation, after all, is what Israel fears. War is familiar territory to them and something they do quite well.

I must say I'm surprised at the tone here of people on both sides who feel that America should pressure either the Israelis or their opponents, and somehow inject sanity into this mess. Does America have any sanity to spare?

Willy said higher up: "I think it's wild how passionate and righteous (we) people in the US are about Israel's actions and occasional civilian deaths caused, while in Iraq there are probably 60 civilians killed a day as a result of a war that OUR country decided to pursue and the turmoil that has followed. Why aren't we more passionate about those lives, and the righteousness of our action there? The numbers simply dwarf anything going on in the Palestinian territories, or currently in Lebanon."

But Sully gave a more typical American view when he said: "Face it, both side have lost their morality and have sunk to levels not seen since the middle ages. Hate erodes morality. If God thought Sodom and Gamorrah were evil places, he has not visited the Middle East of today."

What about the America of today? What about all the Americans who say that Iraq should be turned into a "glass parking lot" for daring to resist an invasion whose supposed justification evaporated in a couple of weeks? Even among the "Bush-haters" there are plenty who say "we should pull out...then nuke the place." For what? For the crime of not having WMD when you all said they did?

Who's really crazy? Whose morality is really out of whack? How about the 72% of Americans who supported invading Iraq?

Israelis and Palestinians are old enemies who fight over a piece of land that is home to both - Americans travelled thousands of miles to attack a country that never threatened them.

Israelis and Palestinians have generations of grudges and bitter memories of tit-for-tat violence preventing reconciliation - Americans had to make up a pretend reason to hate and fear Iraq.

Israelis and Palestinians fight so they can have a few acres of land to farm in peace. America starts wars because it seems to think it has a god-given right to order the lives of everybody on the planet.

Palestinians and Israelis hate every minute of their war - Americans getting pumped with Hannity on FOX just loved theirs - at least they did back in 2003 when all the dying was being done by hapless Iraqis. Why else would they have arranged the whole thing?

The only thing that's turned them off their war is defeat. Not morality, not sanity. Losing.

Israelis and Palestinians do terrible things to each other, but at least they know WHY they fight. For their homes, land, and families.

What is America fighting its war for? Nobody knows...least of all the clueless Americans themselves.

I think it's a really great idea we're just going to let Israel do its thing. While the whole planet gets pulled into this mess, and the only nation, the United States, who has the power say " hey can we sit and talk a minute" has decided to sit this one out. Again, the whole planet is wrong and the United States President and his cabinet are happy that they are expressing their freedom. Who put that guy in office? If you a accuse Lebanese of putting Hazbullah in Parliament, who put Bush in office. He didn't win the election, but he won a Supreme Court case.
If you are freedom loving, then sight with Israel; otherwise, the coalition of the willing Israel and Israel will prevail. What kind of world exploitation joke is this?

"No I would not live in an area that was being bombarded with any type of rocket fire. The reason I do not have to make the choice is because, at least lately (from a historical perspective) the U.S. does not occupy and then slowly steal the land of it's neighbors while also preventing them forming their own fully fledged country."

Excuse me, the rockets are coming from Gaza, where Israel is not sitting or stealing or occupying anything. The people of the Gaza strip are free, and this freedom seems to have only increased their appetite to fire rockets into Israeli towns, so I'm afraid your whole argument has no legs to stand on.

As to your lengthy lecture about the settlements, we are all familiar with the facts but they have nothing to do with the current crisis which is between Israel and the Hizbullah. Nasrallah has his own agenda, and the settlements interest him as much as the snows of yesteryear. If you don't know who and what he is I'll be happy to provide you with some materials. In the meantime you can start right here, in today Washington Post's front page:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/13/AR2006071301743.html

Excellent point OD - although I do think that we are partly fighting this war at the instigation of pro-israel antagonists (as well as many others) ...having said that the War in Iraq began to feed on itself couple of years ago(coincidentally around the time GBjr declared victory) and now it seems to have a life of it's own.

To Michael O. (Janus)

"Excuse me, the rockets are coming from Gaza, where Israel is not sitting or stealing or occupying anything. The people of the Gaza strip are free, and this freedom seems to have only increased their appetite to fire rockets into Israeli towns, so I'm afraid your whole argument has no legs to stand on."

Watch the movie Escape from New York and you will get an idea of the type of freedom the Gazans have.

When you try and starve 1 million people and steal their money don't be surprised when they bite back!!

J,

I've been reading your comments and I think you made some pretty good points.

To turn your views into action, I highly suggest spreading the message among people you know and also by contacting your representatives.

Michael:

"The people of the Gaza strip are free"

They were freed from the 7000 settlers who controlled about 20% of the Strip while 1.2 million Palestinians were forced in the rest.

Israel still controls Gaza from land, sea and and air.

No Palestinian in Gaza can enter or leave the strip without the approval of Israel.

Let be honest here.

What Israel needs to do is declare for once and all that it will end the occupation in all Palestinian territories in accordance with UN resolutions.

With this, Palestinians can at least have some hope and would probably be more patient.

Just my opinion.

It was a mistake to pay arabs for their oil in the first place. These people are fiends who are only interested in murder.

I guess that if I grew up in a country that hates women, kills anyone who drinks wine, and beats anyone who listens to music, I might want to commit suicide too.

The saddest thing about this issue is the underlying premise for all the bad feelings. Religion. This conflict has essentially been ongoing for thousands of years, and for what? I mean really, for what? We are all the same people. Because someone's god is better than someone else's? Is that what you're telling me? Your god is better than mine, so for all of history and all of the future, families and their children will live in war and learn to hate. That is our reality. Congratulations.

All sides are guilty. There will be no peace until we learn to put aside this insidious force known as organized religion that does nothing more than tear apart the basic tenets of civilization and demolish the hope for a better future. Your hate creates my hate, and vice versa, there will be no end until we set aside this ridiculous notion that ancient words should in any way rule the way we live out lives.

I agree with an earlier poster who said neither side desires a peaceful solution. I only wish there was a way to contain all the hatred conjured by religion into one area of the world and leave the rest of us alone.

Proposed solution to Israeli/Arab conflict:

1. Airlift all Israelis to U.S.

2. Airlift all Palestinians/Lebanese to
Syria/Iran.

3. Turn Israel/Gaza Strip/West Bank, etc.
into a peaceful historical resort area,
and tell ALL of the zealots to go get
a LIFE!!!!

Karim,

You wrote, "To turn your views into action, I highly suggest spreading the message among people you know and also by contacting your representatives."

I do and I have.

My voting decisions will hinge on these issues as I feel that they supersede just about every other problem the US has.

In my view, the war on terrorism is largely
necessary because of our tacit and not so tacit support of the Israeli settler movement. We could have reduced tensions and anti American sentiment long ago by forcing Israel to withdraw. The decision not to do so has been due in large part to simple political cowardice. I.E., who wants to risk their political career by pissing off the Christian Right and Aipac over the problems the rest of the American public knows almost nothing about.

Who had really heard about Osama bin Laden before 9/11? The Clinton administration made some warnings, but was too cowardly to make the obvious connection between the Israeli settlement movement and the havoc it has spawned and the massive anti US sentiment that was growing in the Islamic World. The Bush administration is guilty of the same cowardice.

Although I am a Republican, My vote will go to anyone who has the guts to dismantle AIpac (simply deem it the agent of a foreign nation so that it will no longer be able to fund political campaigns) and very publicly cut all other US funding of Israel until they completely withdraw from the occupied territories and allow Palestine to emerge as a nation.

Once the Aipac money stops flowing and they can no longer coerce politicians who vote contrary to their agenda by immediately funding their opponents, I assure you, the Vacuum surrounding the subject of Israel's policies and their damaging effects on US world standing and security will finally disappear and a real dialog about how to deal with Israel will ensue.

In the mean time, I am very vocal about the whole situation and I encourage others (and I have found that there are many, many others who are also shocked at the US's lack of will regarding Israel's behavior) to do so as well.

From a selfish point of view, I hope a republican can step forward and show the resolve to accomplish all of what I have stated above, although, Sadly, based on what I am seeing now, I doubt that it will be the case.

J

Michael O.,

Angus refuted the first of your distortions pretty darn well (Thanks, Angus).

If Israel occupied the entire US and eventualy gave back Rhode Island, but constantly ran air and ground missions inside Rhode Island which killed scores of innocent Rhode Islanders in an effort to kill off the people still struggling to free the rest of the US, We might not consider ourselves to be "Free" or anything like it.

Regarding Nasrallah, I was stunned you would suggest that the current situation has nothing to do with the Palestinains and the Israeli settlement movement. Hezbollah would have run out of gas long ago if the Palestinians were given back their land (indicated by the green line) and allowed to form a stable nation. The settlers caused this mess by taking a very difficult situation (the formation of Israel in the first place) and making it almost impossible by immediatly starting the quest for Greater Israel. It is the settlers agenda that dominates Aipacs actions in this country. It is the settlers actions that have inflamed hatred in the middle east to the degree that it has backlashed against us for supporting Israel in their internationally condemned attempt to further dispossess the Palestinian people. It was Israels attempt to "occupy" and probably settle Lebanon that led to the formation of Hezbollah in the first place and it was the ongoing attempt of Israel to maximize the size of the settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza that kept sympathy and money rolling into groups like Hezbollah. u

I will say it once again. Dismantle the settlements and help build a free and self determeined Palestine and you will see the beginning of the end of Hezbollah, Al Qeada, and most other radical Islamic groups. It is the oxygen that they breath, and we provide it to them by funding to this very day the policies that keep those groups alive.

I'm sure you've read the Israel Lobby paper by Walt and Mearsheimer. The W.Post did a little smear campaign on it but it's hard to convincingly call the Dean of the Kennedy school of government at Harvard a raving anti semite and still be taken seriously in the future. I only bring this up because proposing, as you have, that the current situation involving Nasrallah has nothing to do with the settlements is about as whacky as suggesting that 9/11 occured because those darn islamic extremists just hate our values and freedoms and then saying that it is true because the Washington Post said so. (No offence, Jefferson, your forum here is appreciated)

How many simutaneous wars to protect Isreals imagined right to take other peoples land and call it their own are you willing to fight?

Both Bush and
Kerry, unbidden by any direct question on the subject, said during the debates that the war in Iraq was somewhat justified by the fact that it kept Israel safe. We are threatening Iran with war in order to keep israel safe. We are supporting wholesale slaughter of civilians in both the gaza and Lebanon in order to keep Israel safe.
And safe from what? People who struggle against the occupation and settlements.
sentiments that are shared by most people in the middle east and to a large extent most people in the world.

So, in order to quell the problem, we could:

A) Kill all Arabs and Muslims in the region who don't like the settlements or the occupation, i.e. almost all of them.

OR

B) Stop paying for the settlements continued existence, stop vetoing the UN resolutions, and watch them, along with the symapathy for groups like Hezbollah, Al Aaeda, and many of our other problms in the region, fade into history.

It would not happen over night, but it would happen. It would be the beginning of the end of the war on Terrorism, and a return to the moral high ground for the US.

But no, seriously Michael, lets just let this just turn into a giant region wide conflict that involves Syria, Iran, Lebanon, Iraq, and Arab and Islamic fighters from a multitude of other countries that results in a new Draft system and that needlessly saps the resources of the US in order to protect another countries policies that we have always officailly condemned.

J

It is interesting that there are huge crowds of arab civilians in the streets of Lebanon, but Israeli's are all in bunkers.

Without a word, this is proof that arabs target civilians and jews don't.

While civilians are killed on both sides, the arab civs know they are not targets, while the jew know they are.

Or perhaps Jack it's because the Israeli's HAVE bunkers and the Lebanese DO NOT - after seeing yesterdays pictures I would rather be out in the open as opposed to an apartment building that could be destroyed at any moment by israeli 'defence' bombs.

Lebanon was on the path to economic recovery after years of strife - tourists were flocking to the former Paris of the Middle East - the Syrians had finally left - and what happens - the israeli's find the excuse they have been waiting 6 years for to send Lebanon back 20 years.

To Michael O. (Janus)

You wrote:

"If Israel frees the prisoners they are sure to rejoin their organizations and resume their attacks. What country in its right mind would free them?"

Aren't you making an argument for Hamas and Hezbollah to hang onto their own prisoners as they would surely rejoin the IDF if released?

Also you neglect to mention that Hamas last request was for Women and minors to be released - most of whom are held without trial or sentence.

For what it's worth I think the 3 soldiers should be released and the israeli's should release the women and children they hold (illegally).

Jack,

Lebanon is half Christian.

I would suggest you do some homework and educate yourself before you post your ignorance here.

You claim that Israel doesn't target civilians when within 2 days more than 60 people were killed mostly civilians by Israeli (US made) bombs

Israel is a terrorist state.

It was founded by terror and it uses terror to settle its issues.

>"Lebanon was on the path to economic recovery...."

Lebanon was also hosting the Hezbo army, which was stockpiling thousands of missiles and other weapons on Israel's border in preparation for this war.

And during the entire time Lebanon was recovering, they were bombing Israel.

Many Americans have not forgotten the hundred of US Marines who were murdered in their sleep. Why would America want to help the Hezbo army now?

By the way, there are two "jacks" posting here. I did not write the long post about religion. I did post about the civs and Hezbo army.

>"You claim that Israel doesn't target civilians when within 2 days more than 60 people were killed...."

Did I say that no arab civs were killed? No. I said they were not the TARGET. And the unspoken proof is seen on every video of arabs spectating the war.

Conversely, the arab weapons in this conflict (as usual) as designed to kill anyone at all "in that direction".

The jews have the power to destroy the arab nations but never use it. To them such weapons are a strategic deterrent.

The arab leaders proudly say they want those weapons and will use them--immediately. To them such weapons are a first, best choice.

Hmmmm....

Lebanon was not bombing Israel during its recovery - hezbollah was - and while you pat israel on the back for not anihilating its neighbours note that it's become obvious in the past couple of days the hb had weapons that were capable of doing far more damage than those they have used in the past 6 years or so.

So would you have justified Britain bombing Dublin during the "troubles" in the 70's & 80's?

>"Lebanon was not bombing Israel during its recovery - hezbollah was...."

The Hezbo are an army inside the borders of Lebanon as well as a political party inside the government. It is a fanciful notion to suggest that Lebanon and the Hezbo are completely distinct. They think they are clever when they say "we are state-less". Not so. Nobody is fooled by such nonesense.

The weapons they had not previously used are merely longer range Iranian rockets and UAVs. So what?

Mention of the IRA at this point is a red herring.

Just reading a bit more of today's news - got to say this is not revenge this is rage!! Olmert has proved he's no different than his predecesor.

Karim:

"Israel still controls Gaza from land, sea and and air."

When Israel left Gaza the military moved out too. Not only the settlers. Israel controls its own borders, same as every other nation. If it's attacked from across those borders it will defend itself. Same as every other nation.

"No Palestinian in Gaza can enter or leave the strip without the approval of Israel."

You mean into Israel. Is that so unusual in international borders?

"What Israel needs to do is declare for once and all that it will end the occupation in all Palestinian territories in accordance with UN resolutions. With this, Palestinians can at least have some hope and would probably be more patient.
Just my opinion."

I am not sure what is that opinion based on. Past experience points in the opposite direction, i.e. the more Israel leaves the occupied territories the more Palestinians attacks intensify, both verbally and militarily.

What does all that have to do with Lebanon and Hizbullah, which is what we're talking about here?

"Angus refuted the first of your distortions pretty darn well (Thanks, Angus)."

That was a joke, right? Angus is not in a position to refute anything. His ignorance of what is actually going on in the middle east is so vast that to straighten it out would be like trying to teach someone Chinese from scratch. I don't have a lifetime to devote to that.

"If Israel occupied the entire US and eventualy gave back Rhode Island, but constantly ran air and ground missions inside Rhode Island which killed scores of innocent Rhode Islanders in an effort to kill off the people still struggling to free the rest of the US, We might not consider ourselves to be "Free" or anything like it."

Can we try to keep our analogies out of the realm of the bizarre? The reality is that if the Palestinians stopped their daily attacks on Israel, it would not only bring peace to the Gaza strip, it would hasten Israel's withdrawal from the WB. Instead, the Palestinians are doing everything in their power to support those in Israel who say to the government: You gave them territory and they use it to intensify their war against us, and now you want to give them an even greater territory? Put them within 10 miles of Tel-Aviv? Are you out of your minds?

"Regarding Nasrallah, I was stunned you would suggest that the current situation has nothing to do with the Palestinains and the Israeli settlement movement. Hezbollah would have run out of gas long ago if the Palestinians were given back their land (indicated by the green line)"

Who says it's indicated by the Green Line? Hizbullah? Hamas? Al-Aksa brigades? Islamic Jihad? Can you substantiate any of that?

"and allowed to form a stable nation."

Who is preventing them from forming a stable nation?

"The settlers caused this mess by taking a very difficult situation (the formation of Israel in the first place) and making it almost impossible by immediatly starting the quest for Greater Israel."

Immediately when? What quest for greater Israel? Do you know under what circumstances Israel came to occupy the WB and Gaza?

"It is the settlers agenda that dominates Aipacs actions in this country. It is the settlers actions that have inflamed hatred in the middle east to the degree that it has backlashed against us for supporting Israel in their internationally condemned attempt to further dispossess the Palestinian people. It was Israels attempt to "occupy" and probably settle Lebanon that led to the formation of Hezbollah in the first place and it was the ongoing attempt of Israel to maximize the size of the settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza that kept sympathy and money rolling into groups like Hezbollah."

Attempt to "occupy and PROBABLY SETTLE Lebanon"? Please tell me you're not serious.

Are you saying Nasrallah is trying to make Israel relinquish the WB by kidnapping two Israeli soldiers?

"I will say it once again. Dismantle the settlements and help build a free and self determeined Palestine and you will see the beginning of the end of Hezbollah, Al Qeada, and most other radical Islamic groups. It is the oxygen that they breath, and we provide it to them by funding to this very day the policies that keep those groups alive."

How do you know that?

"I'm sure you've read the Israel Lobby paper by Walt and Mearsheimer. The W.Post did a little smear campaign on it but it's hard to convincingly call the Dean of the Kennedy school of government at Harvard a raving anti semite and still be taken seriously in the future. I only bring this up because proposing, as you have, that the current situation involving Nasrallah has nothing to do with the settlements is about as whacky as suggesting that 9/11 occured because those darn islamic extremists just hate our values and freedoms and then saying that it is true because the Washington Post said so. (No offence, Jefferson, your forum here is appreciated)"

I stopped counting the instances where you tried to change the subject into one where you feel more comfortable because you think you know more about it and have a stronger case. What about British citizens who place bombs in the London underground and blow up other British citizens at random? What about when Indonesians blow up Australians in Bali? What about when Canadian Muslims organize to blow up the CN tower? What about when the trains in Bombay are blown up? And on and on. Is all that also the fault of Israel? Is there any problem in the world that you would not lay at Israel's feet?

Let me assure you: You cannot begin to understand the way Jihadi extremists think and the causes of the current Jihadi movement. Very few people in the West can. But some at least have the brains and the honesty to recognize that they cannot understand it. Those who don't, try to come up with easy solutions that they can grasp, and project those explanations on the Jihadis, unbothered by the fact that those solutions have nothing to do with the real problem.

Israel should leave the territories and the sooner the better. It should do so because no people should have to live under occupation and no people should have to live as occupiers. Its military should be defending its borders and not be involved in running the daily lives of a civilian population under occupation. But anyone who thinks that an Israeli withdrawal will be the magic wand that will cause even the Palestinians to stop their war, let alone other Jihadis in the world, is seriously deluding himself. There is absolutely no evidence to support this proposition.

Jack:

"The jews have the power to destroy the arab nations but never use it. To them such weapons are a strategic deterrent."

Saddam also had WMDs during the 1st Gulf war and could have bombed Israel with few of them.

Israel does target civilians because the Israeli government does believe in collective punishment.

>"Saddam also had WMDs during the 1st Gulf war and could have bombed Israel with few of them."

Actually, Saddam did give orders to use his WMD in Gulf War I, if the US went to Baghdad--you will recall that he shot many scuds at Israel, even though that country had no part in the conflict. In Gulf War II, he didn't have an effective WMD arsenal.

In any case, I was referring specifically to nuclear weapons and to Ahmadinejad.

>"Israel does target civilians because the Israeli government does believe in collective punishment."

Israel targets infrastructure, which is used by the Hezbo army. And their pilots risk their lives to drop warnings to civs in the area on how to avoid being casualties.

And you equate this to a Hezbo tactics? They aim missiles at houses in the middle of the night; they drive a cars full of explosives into crowded nightclubs or resort hotels. Their stated goal is to kill as many innocent people as possible to force their enemies to capitulate.

These are not similar tactics. I am neither jew nor arab, and I tell you as a dispassionate observer that the arab countries look like madmen in this whole struggle. And the more you learn about them, the crazier they look.

>"Let me assure you: You cannot begin to understand the way Jihadi extremists think and the causes of the current Jihadi movement..."

Let's see...they think that they are god's chosen people, that everyone who is not muslim is a moron, that women are only slightly higher that the morons, and that the world had better respect them because they can and will kill anyone number of men, women and children if they don't.

To sum up, life is cheap.

Am I getting close?

"Saddam also had WMDs during the 1st Gulf war and could have bombed Israel with few of them."

Saddam did not have nuclear weapons, only chemical. The fact that he bombed Israel with conventional weapons but avoided escalating it into WMD is, if anything, proof of the power of deterrent. In a match between chemical weapons and nuclear weapons, the loser is known in advance.

Of course, such a deterrent would only work with a head of state, who, unlike terror leaders, cannot save his government by hiding behind civilians.

"Israel does target civilians because the Israeli government does believe in collective punishment."

Nonsense. Killing civilians as a collective punishment is a Palestinian policy, not an Israeli one.

>>>"And the more you learn about them, the crazier they look...."

Reference Ahmadinejad's speech to the U.N. (or just about anything the guy has said lately):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/01/14/wiran14.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/01/14/ixworld.html

He claims to hear voices.

To michael(where's the angel)O:

You wrote:

"Angus refuted the first of your distortions pretty darn well (Thanks, Angus)."

That was a joke, right? Angus is not in a position to refute anything. His ignorance of what is actually going on in the middle east is so vast that to straighten it out would be like trying to teach someone Chinese from scratch. I don't have a lifetime to devote to that.

You of course are an authority on all things middle eastern no?

Out last debate on a similar topic ended up with me pointing out that you had made contrary statements regarding the plight of the Palestinians in Gaza. I posted it twice and you had nothing to say because you knew it showed you for the mealy mouthed fake that you are...the high minded ideal of how wrong it was to punish the Palestinian people because of their choice of government and two days later exclaiming bitterly "no one is punsihing the Palestinians" ...

My guess is you and saxyboy (kennyG?) are AI(zionist)PAC shills that are trotted out ad naseum to maintain your version of revisionist middle eastern history.

The beauty of these blogs is it quickly becomes clear that there are two sides to every argument and it pays to do ones own research...

Jack2 - why is the IRA a red herring?

michaelO (version1.0)

you wrote:

"Nonsense. Killing civilians as a collective punishment is a Palestinian policy, not an Israeli one"

One tiny example here (there are hundres of others) - after the Black September murders of the Israeli athletes in Munich -Golda Meyer bravely dispatched warplanes to bomb a Palestinian Refugee camp killing 200 civilians....

Is that not a collective punishment?

Michael:

"Of course, such a deterrent would only work with a head of state, who, unlike terror leaders, cannot save his government by hiding behind civilians. "

Hiding behind civilians and using civilians as human shields has always been a tactical Israeli policy.

Putting, financing and encouraging its Israeli (Jewish-only) civilians to move to the occupied territories which are subject to military rule is one of them.

It is as if America was encouraging its civilians to settle in Iraq today.

That's what Israel has been doing since 1967.

A government that claims it is concerned with the protection of its civilians does not implant them in the middle of its enemy.

Secondly, any visitor to Israel will notice that Israeli soldiers ride in civilian buses all the time.

One should not confuse Palestinian tactics that were born out of great despair, daily humiliation and such, with Israeli immoral policies that are debated in the open in their knesset and then voted in.

Dr WHy -

Did u write the Man in the Iron Mask as I see the author is A Dumbass

Oops wrong page....

>"Jack2 - why is the IRA a red herring?"

Angus, the reference to the UK/IRA conflict is a "red herring" because it takes the discussion into a totally different subject. The only similarity is the fact that the IRA are terrorists, but other than that, it's a totally unrelated conflict.

Are you starting a whole new thread now to discuss the IRA?

Jack2:

"Israel targets infrastructure, which is used by the Hezbo army."

Targeting highways, bridges, civilian airports, etc are means of collective punishment. Even the ports, that cost Lebanon billion of dollars, were destroyed.

Hezbollah is a legitimate party in Lebanon with a legitimate representation in the government.

One can question and condemn their military attack against the Israeli military but dropping bombs on Beirut and terrorizing its residents is not acceptable, period.

"And their pilots risk their lives to drop warnings to civs in the area on how to avoid being casualties."

By that logic..

Hamas and co have always announced and warned that they would strike back. It is rare when their attacks come as a surprise.

Why don't all Israeli stay home and avoid Hamas bombs on the streets? why go to clubs when they know it might be a target? This was the non-sense you have been saying.

All Palestinian groups, religious and secular, always insisted that they are fighting the Israeli occupation.

Few Israeli, who are sympathetic to the oppressed Palestinians cause, have lived in the territories among Palestinians without an incident or harm.

Amira Hass, the famous Israeli journalist, lived in the WB and Gaza for years.

"You of course are an authority on all things middle eastern no?"

Compared to you, yes. But then again, being an authority next to you is no great accomplishment. Do you really expect to be taken seriously with statements such as "This war has been planned for 6 years by the IAF and dumbass Nasrallah gave them the catalyst.."?

"Out last debate on a similar topic ended up with me pointing out that you had made contrary statements regarding the plight of the Palestinians in Gaza."

Our last debate ended when the thread was terminated by the WP.

"I posted it twice and you had nothing to say because you knew it showed you for the mealy mouthed fake that you are...the high minded ideal of how wrong it was to punish the Palestinian people because of their choice of government and two days later exclaiming bitterly "no one is punsihing the Palestinians" ..."

Can you try to articulate the contradiction between "The Palestinians should not be punished" and "No one is punishing the Palestinians"?

You guys need a few years living under the Taliban. Now there's a culture you can really be proud of!

What an enlightened bunch you all are.

The similarity is that the IRA launched attacks from Eire - they also had a political wing - Sinn Fein - was that a validation for the RAF to bomb Dublin or Limerick or Cork.....

"One tiny example here (there are hundres of others) - after the Black September murders of the Israeli athletes in Munich -Golda Meyer bravely dispatched warplanes to bomb a Palestinian Refugee camp killing 200 civilians...."

It warms my heart to see that you still have to go way back in history to fish out something in the belief that it would support your general theory. At least this time you only had to go back 33 years and a dozen different Israeli administrations. Last time you had to go to WW2. Hey, what about that time when Moses saw an Egyptian beating up an Israelite, and he smote him and buried him in the sand and ran away to the desert? Wasn't that a case of "targeted assassination", or perhaps "illegally killing innocent civilians"?

you are a fake ...your post was an angst filled, hand wringing, empathetic cry for the Palestinians who WERE being punished as a result of the cutting off of funds to Gaza ....and a couple of days later in response to another post you declared 'no-one is punishing he Palestians' ...thats the Janus face....a pretense at caring but in reality a zionist shill....

btw people posted on that thread at least 10 days after your last post...but your revisionist nature shines through...

its the same reason why I never trust anything israeli politicians say - you catch them in lies and disinformation once and for me they have zero credibility..

actually when you guys wiped out the Caananites is as far back as I would go

Jack2

I hate the Taliban and all they stand for..

The bottom line is that the arabs keep losing wars.

The empire fell, loser.

Hard luck.

"Hiding behind civilians and using civilians as human shields has always been a tactical Israeli policy."

You're dreaming.

"Putting, financing and encouraging its Israeli (Jewish-only) civilians to move to the occupied territories which are subject to military rule is one of them."

They should not be doing that, I said so before, so that's not a subject for discussion. They have also shown that they are willing to pull out all those settlers and move them into Israel proper, so the financing and encouraging is immaterial. Still waiting for the Palestinians to show a sign that they are willing to stop attacking Israel when it removes settlers.

"A government that claims it is concerned with the protection of its civilians does not implant them in the middle of its enemy."

I don't see how that's relevant, being that the enemy attacks within Israel proper as much as within the territories.

"Secondly, any visitor to Israel will notice that Israeli soldiers ride in civilian buses all the time."

What's your point? Has the IDF ever blown up a Palestinian bus in the hope that there would be some terrorists among its riders?

"One should not confuse Palestinian tactics that were born out of great despair, daily humiliation and such, with Israeli immoral policies that are debated in the open in their knesset and then voted in."

If they stopped attacking Israel, They could have their state a long time ago and would not have to be desperate.

What does all that have to with Nasrallah? There's not an inch of Lebanese soil that's occupied by Israel. What's his excuse?

The truth is, this is a clash between cultures.

In America, women have equal rights, there is freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom to assemble, etc.

In America, you can speak against the government, you can drink a beer, you can listen to any music, you can even convert to a different religion. JUST TRY THAT IN IRAN OR IRAQ OR SYRIA OR JORDAN OR EGYPT OR SAUDI ARABIA OR THE UAE, ETC. If you even talk about Christianity in these countries, you can be arrested and executed for trying to pollute their culture.

And talk about women, the muslim way is to mutliate girl's bodies, deny them education and opportunity. And if a girl dates before marriage, she is liable to be murdered by her own father or brother for HONOR.

I've been to mosques in the Far East, and the first topic the guys always wanted to talk about was American women and sex. It was filthy talk.

These two cultures could not be more different. Result, endless conflict.

Jack22

u wrote:

The bottom line is that the arabs keep losing wars.

The empire fell, loser.

Hard luck

What empire? and whats your point?

Btw u sound like a real winner Mr Off

J,
I totally agree it is time to march on Washington.
Amendment 1
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
I believe the greatest threat to America is any law that Congress passes respecting aid or comfort to Israel.
Israel is an establishment of religion. Therefore any law that Congress passes respecting aid or comfort to Israel is a violation of the First Amendment and is therefore unconstitutional.
Death over Judeo-Christiian Mytholgy is a waste of life. Evil is live spelled backwards whether it is in the name of Jesus, Mohammed, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Yahweh, Zues or the the other made up fictional charachters personifying the mysteries of life.
Zionism is about realty, not reality.
I may or may not be related by marriage to the author of the Balfour Declaration. I hope that I find out that I am not.

["I am now over 64 years old. I remember shedding tears as I read "Exodus" and learned about the Holocaust. For at least half my life I have been a strong supporter of the right of Israel to exist where it is, and in peace.

Jews must realize that there are millions of people in the world now who, like myself, have changed their opinion of the validity of Israel's claim to existence as a state. The Jews have opened themselves to ridicule with their treatment of Palestinians (No land, no water, no jobs, no hope.), and this latest mindless overreaction to the kidnapping of one soldier has only reduced the validity of the constant Israeli claim to moral superiority even further.

Clearly, Israel could not continue to exist at all were it not for the unreasonable and disproportionate aide it receives from my country, the United States. I resent the unfair way in which my country distributes money and arms in the Middle East, and profoundly resent the implication, so often spattered about, that I am anti-Semitic because I object.

The time has come for Jews to realize they will never establish a peaceful existence where Israel is now located and that it is time to scatter the tribe once again, and forever. Sorry, but you are just too unreasonable to be able to make things work. We have really tried to help you."]

Posted by: Jim | July 15, 2006 01:33 AM

Trivia Question: What is inside the great big mosque in Mecca where muslims go to worship?

Answer: A meteorite!

They have to orient themselves to point towards this rock when they pray, and one of their highest acts of worship is to visit the thing in person and kiss it.

What is even more bizarre is the fact that they are waiting for the thing to talk!

What do you suppose a muslim rock would have to say? What else, "Kill the jew!"

Like I said, the more you know about them, the more insane they appear.

Clearly, you have the brain of a bird
Mr. OFF (as some very intelligent individual called you before).

jack2- (or as some very intelligent individual called you in one of the previous posts, Mr. Off).
You seem like a very deranged, hate-intoxicated zionist....some worthless flat worm Talmudist, christian-killer kahanist. You might benifit from some psychiatric counceling.

Now go eat your swine and popcorn and see if Jerry Springer can help you determine who your biological father might be.
Good Luck.

Here is a good link for you, Mr. Off.

http://christianparty.net/jews.htm

Have a good day!

I notice these guys don't answer the substance of arguments.

I merely offered facts taken from their own books and histories. Muslims cannot refute the facts, only the conclusions.

For example, the fact that Mohammad would go into a trance, losing bodily control and foaming at the mouth when he dictated much of the Koran. Conclusion: This is a description of demon posession.

Also, Mohammad took a young child as a wife. Conclusion: The man was a pedophile.

There are so many other references I could make. The truth is all over the Internet, and all you need do is Google any of these subjects to find millions of hits on these things. And you will find muslim responses in which they accede to the facts but then violently deny the only logical conclusions.

I suppose that if you swallow these bizarre things as reasonable, then murdering your daughter for dating to uphold your "honor" is no great leap.

The final irony is that the guys attacking me in this forum would be beaten in countries like Iran if their hard drives were siezed and scanned by the police. And as hard as they work, they never gain the acceptance of cruel Ungit.

It really gives one sympathy for the jews, who are surrounded by them.

Don't try to change the subject of discussion and make it about Islam. This blog is about the terrorist and illigetimate state (illigetimate both in birth and in existence)that you call israel and its murder of children and destruction of everything civilian. There is so much agony in this world because of religious fanatics like yourself, be it jews, muslims, or christians. Unfortunately, there are plenty of those in all religions. The teaching of your own religion are not so lovely so don't go around and bash people other religions. I could embarrass you (if I was in a bad mood or if you push further with your nonsense) and direct you and the rest of the readers to a full review of the nastinees and the hate in your talmud that is directed especially towards christians. But I will just direct you to a summary of such sick and insane teachings:

Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden.

Gittin 69a . To heal his flesh a Jew should take dust that lies within the shadow of an outdoor toilet, mix with honey and eat it.

Sanhedrin 55b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).

Sanhedrin 54b. A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.

Kethuboth 11b. "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing."

See the nice summary at:

http://www3.stormfront.org/jewish/talmud.html

Ridiculous

If you are wrong, pointing out something else that it wrong doesn't make you right. That is yet another of the logical fallacies you have fallen into.

However, by drawing the comparison, you at least admit that Mohammad's perversions were a bad thing.

And just why would you think these references would be a reproach to me?

I hate to disappoint you, but I personally don't care about any religion- not one bit.
I was just trying to make a point that ALL religions have their own problems. Pointing to one without pointing to the rest paints one (you in this instance) in a very bad color- that of intolernace and hate. Even though I don't subscribe to any religion, I still don't think that its a smart idea to badmouth people's religions or cultures just because they are different from one's own. That's why its usually a good idea to avoid the religion subject altogether. Otherwise, one must at least have the courage to point to problems in their own religion and culture when pointing to problems in other religions etc. Another boyish, but very annoying thing about your posts, is the fact that you jumped on the religion (intolerance wagon)subject on a blog that is purely about politics- presumably to change the direction of a subject that is evidently makeing you very uncomfortable. I don't blame you for feeling this way. It really is hard (for the zionists and many jews to be on the defensive all the time.

Politics and religion are a dangerous combination. Personally I believe a majority of religion is politics. The post apocalyptic Jerusalem will have twelve gates and look a whole lot like the Emerald City. After the apocalyptic genocide what will be the need of a gated community. I am pretty sure the 4 million Palestinians refugees will be taken care of by the apocalyptic genocide.
The Romans occupy the Holy Land. God sends Jesus the Son of God, being one with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost to the rescue. The Jews convince the Romans to crucify Jesus. 400 years later the Christians turn power over to none other than the Romans. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Angus:

"you are a fake ...your post was an angst filled, hand wringing, empathetic cry for the Palestinians who WERE being punished as a result of the cutting off of funds to Gaza ..."

I don't know whose posts you were reading, but if they contained hand wringing and angst over the fate of the Palestinians, they were definitely not mine.

There were some participants on that forum arguing that since the Palestinians had officially elected Hamas to rule them, they were collectively responsible for Hamas's actions and could not complain when they suffer the consequences of those actions. I disagreed with that premise, but I also said Israel's actions, such as closing the border passages from Gaza to prevent terrorist incursions, were meant to defend Israelis against Hamas terror, not to punish the civilian population. Precisely what part of that does not make sense to you?

The general tone of your messages indicates that your wires are becoming progressively loose. It may do you good to spend a little more time away from these forums.

Jack2:

You are arguing with someone whose gets his knowledge of the Talmud from a Nazi website. That's a waste of time, to put it mildly.

>"You are arguing with someone whose gets his knowledge of the Talmud from a Nazi website. That's a waste of time, to put it mildly."

Agreed

Well, try to refute that knowledge to any one's satisfaction instead of attacking and labelling the source as a nazi or anti-semite.. But I guess nothing knew in that. It came from your talmud, regardless of where the information is posted. In fact, its even nastier if you read it in hebrew.
The old testament is no better.

Jack2/Michael:

Anyone can demonize Judaism by selectively posting from the Torah.

I hope that the posters wouldn't lower their standards to yours.

In the mean time, the Israeli government is still killing innocent civilians in Lebanon.

This terrorist bully state that holds the highest number of violated UN resolutions in the world must be stopped.

"Well, try to refute that knowledge to any one's satisfaction instead of attacking and labelling the source as a nazi or anti-semite.."

There's nothing to refute. The sturmfront is a Nazi website, as anyone visiting it can plainly see, the alleged Talmud quotes posted on it are fabrications made out of whole cloth, and you have never been anywhere near the Talmud.

"In the mean time, the Israeli government is still killing innocent civilians in Lebanon."

and vice versa.

"This terrorist bully state that holds the highest number of violated UN resolutions in the world must be stopped."

If your terrorist friends the Hizbullah had not started, there would have been no need to stop anyone.

I like this guy, I was born in the same year as him and think he is a dynamic, and non-dogmatic leader.

The west must recognise that Israel's agenda is in conflict with its own

The Olmert government, Hizbullah and Hamas are tacitly united in rejection of any moves towards a compromise peace

David Clark
Monday July 17, 2006
The Guardian

Whatever else can be said for or against Israel's escalation of military action against Lebanon, there is little prospect that it will achieve its stated objectives. If Israel couldn't defeat Hizbullah after 18 years in which its army occupied large swaths of Lebanese territory, it is not going to succeed with air strikes and blockades, or even another occupation. The same point applies even more forcefully in the case of Gaza. Every time Israel applies the iron fist in an effort to beat the Palestinians into submission, their resistance simply re-emerges in a more extreme and rejectionist form. Far from fearing Israel's wrath, Hizbullah and Hamas must be rather pleased at their success in provoking it into the sort of over-reaction from which they have always benefited.
Nor does it seem plausible that military action will enable Israel to secure the release of its captured soldiers. The civilian victims of Israel's indiscriminate retaliation have no real influence over the militias that hold them, while the militias themselves are untroubled by the spectacle of public suffering. On the contrary, they thrive on it. In the case of Lebanon, it is possible that acts of collective punishment, such as the destruction of Beirut airport and yesterday's killing of yet more civilians, might divide Hizbullah and its supporters from the rest of the country, but only at the risk of triggering another civil war and creating a vacuum that Israel's enemies in Syria and Iran will find easier to exploit.

In view of all this, it is valid to ask what Israel thinks it is doing. Indeed, this question is implicit in the statements of world leaders at the G8 and elsewhere who have called on Israel to use force proportionately, avoid civilian casualties and refrain from acts that might strengthen Hamas or destabilise Lebanon's fragile political settlement. No one quibbles with Israel's right to defend itself, but doesn't it understand how irresponsible and immoral it is to deliberately escalate the conflict in this way?

The problem is that the premise of the question is false. It assumes that Israel shares our view that a de-escalation followed by negotiation is the best route to a settlement. It assumes, therefore, that when Israeli ministers complain of having "no partner for peace", they actually want one. A much more sensible approach would be to credit them with having the intelligence to know exactly what they are doing and to work backwards from there.

If so, it might become apparent that far from wanting a partner with which to negotiate, the Israeli government is acting with the specific intention of forestalling that possibility. There is nothing particularly new in this. The extremists on both sides have always formed a kind of tacit alliance, with the supporters of "greater Israel" and "no Israel" understanding their joint interest in preventing any moves towards a compromise peace. That is the main reason why Israel encouraged the growth of Hamas as it emerged in the 1980s. Unwilling to negotiate with the secular nationalists of Fatah, even as they were moving towards support for a two-state solution, the Israeli authorities thought it would be a clever idea to promote their Islamist rivals.

In the case of the current crisis, it is no accident that it occurred at precisely the moment when the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, was gaining the upper hand in the latest round of that struggle. By using the threat of a referendum to force Hamas to accept the existence of Israel as the basis for a final settlement, Abbas had created the most promising opening for peace in six years. Faced with internal division and the loss of political initiative, Hamas militants understood that the only way to prevent it would be to trigger another cycle of violence. In turn, the Israel government, whose interests were also threatened by the Abbas initiative, recognised that it had an equally good reason to oblige. The effect of Hizbullah's intervention and Israel's over-reaction has been to put peace even further down the agenda.

The plain truth is that Israel thinks that it can get more by imposing a solution through force than by negotiation and is not interested in any kind of peace process. The Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert, pays lip service to the road map, but he has already received American endorsement for his fallback position, artfully dubbed "unilateral convergence". George Bush has described it as a "bold idea". Armed with the knowledge that he will continue to enjoy American patronage if the road map fails, Olmert has set out to ensure that it does just that. Bush's diplomacy has been truly inept.

It's high time western governments grasped the fundamental truth that Israel is pursuing an agenda that conflicts directly with their own. In the context of the fight against terrorism and the need to promote international cooperation, the west's interest must be to remove the Palestinian question as a source of grievance among mainstream Muslims in a way that guarantees justice for the Palestinians and security for Israel. A settlement of this kind is perfectly feasible and has been outlined in countless documents and initiatives over the years, most recently in the Geneva accords. But the main reason it has proved illusive is that Israel is not, and never has been, prepared to make the territorial compromises required. It still believes that it is entitled to the victor's spoils by annexing large tracts of Palestinian land.

This situation will persist as long as the west remains in denial about the reasons for the ongoing conflict and until the Israeli political establishment is forced to pay a price for its obstinacy. Yet the US remains entirely complicit in its role as Israel's main strategic ally. In the midst of last Friday's onslaught, in which Israeli bombers killed dozens of Lebanese civilians, the Pentagon announced the export of $210m of aviation fuel to help Israel "keep peace and security in the region". Even Britain and other European countries indulge in a form of diplomatic misdirection by focusing one-sidedly on the roles played by Syria and Iran.

The key to resolving the situation in Lebanon lies, as it did throughout the 1970s and 1980s, in finding a solution to the Palestinian question. A viable and successful Palestinian state would rob Hizbullah and its sponsors of the conceit that they are defending helpless Muslims and make it easier for those in the region who oppose them to gain the upper hand. Mahmoud Abbas is the only leader currently working for the kind of negotiated two-state solution the Middle East and the wider world desperately need. But he is being let down by the west at the moment when he had earned the right to expect better. The Palestinian president needs a partner for peace. If Israel will not play that role, the international community must.

· David Clark is a former Labour special adviser at the Foreign Office dkclark@aol.com

I find this odd.

The arabs/persians declare war on Israel, they take oaths to kill them all and destroy their country or die in the effort, and then whine when Israel responds.

You asked for war, stop whining.

I find it bizarre to suggest that Israel promotes terrorists arab organizations in order to keep the conflict going.

By the way, you failed to mention what happened six years ago this month, when Clinton asked Barak to give Arafat everything he was asked. So instead of some 50:50 compromise, Barak offered Atafat a 95:5 give-away.

Arafat turned it down flat, ended negotiations, and flew home to start a new intifada.

They say that when Israel gives any ground, it infuriates the arabs. Their stated goal is the destruction of the jews. No compromises.

One day the Europeans will wake up and see the the truth, but it's a bitter lesson that will cost them.

Well Michael O or is it zero? He of the revisionist mind and mouth (or keyboard)..

If its O are you related in any way to Olmert? If so can you pass a message on to him from Angus from the US - thanks........."dude what's with the combover? It's not fooling anyone ...you're bald we all know ..give up the pretense"....

On another note concerning Mr Olmert ...seems to me that since he is one of the few Israeli leaders who does not have civilian blood on his hands he is doing his best to show the military that he has "cojones" enough to pound terrorists ...the unfortunate thing is that most of the pounding he is doing is on innocent women and children...while that is not enough to cause revulsion in the minds of people like you and your fellow zionists I am glad to see that not all Israeli's and Jews think like you.

If he had any real "cojones" and wanted to demonstrate that Israel's real goal was to respond to the abduction and killing of the soldiers why not go in, kidnap Nasrallah and deliver him to the Hague for trial...ok if you don't want to do that bring him to Israel and put him on trial there....a televised trial for the whole world to see...same with Hamas ...if they are guilty of all the crimes you guys say put them on trial..if they are proven guilty to the satisfaction of the eyes of the world so be it...not perfect but sure as hell better than your wanton carnage levelled against the Lebanese nation and those who happen to be visiting the country.

Also let's see some trials for the thousands of people held in Israeli's prisons.

So - the standard response from you guys is well the Lebanese did not follow UN resolution blah blah....you would have much more credibility with this argument if Israel paid heed to the many UN resolutions it chooses to ignore.

"Well the Lebanese should disarm Hezbollah and man their own borders to stop missiles being fired in to Israel"

Hmmm ...ok lets see...wonder why the Lebanese don't want to start a civil war to protect Israel....watch this space...

In April 1996, a cease-fire that had ended the July 1993 fighting between Hezbollah and Israel broke down due to violations, which involved several attacks on Israeli population centers by Hezbollah. During the five weeks of fighting between March 4 and April 10, seven Israeli soldiers, three Lebanese civilians and at least one Hezbollah fighter were killed. The tally of injured was sixteen Israeli soldiers, seven Lebanese civilians, and six Israeli civilians. On April 9, in response to the cease fire violations, Maj.-Gen. Amiram Levine declared: "The residents in south Lebanon who are under the responsibility of Hezbollah will be hit harder, and the Hezbollah will be hit harder, and we will find the way to act correctly and quickly." On April 11th, after initial strikes against Hezbollah positions, Israel, through SLA radio stations, warned residents in forty-four towns and villages in southern Lebanon, to evacuate within twenty four hours.

Within forty-eight hours, Israel launched the military campaign known as Operation Grapes of Wrath. On April 11, Israel bombarded Hezbollah positions in southern Lebanon and Beirut first, with artillery and later laser guided missiles. On April 13, Israeli warships initiated a blockade against Beirut, Sidon and Tyre, Lebanon's main ports of entry. Meanwhile, Hezbollah continuously bombarded northern Israel with Katyusha rockets. Israel continued to bomb Hezbollah installations. The conflict intensified and according to U.N. spokeswoman, Sylvana Foa, on April 18, Hezbollah, fired two Katyusha rockets and eight mortars at Israel from an area 300 yards away from the Fijian compound, 15 minutes before an Israeli unit responded by shelling the area with M-109A2 155 mm guns. As a result of the shelling, 106 civilians died, with more wounded. Most of the casualties were residents of nearby villages who had fled the conflict, while four were U.N. troops.

Israel immediately expressed regret for the loss of innocent lives, saying that the Hezbollah position and not the UN compound was the intended target of the shelling, and that the compound was hit "due to incorrect targeting based on erroneous data." Army Deputy Chief of Staff, Matan Vilnai stated that the shells hit the base not because they were off target, but because Israeli gunners used outdated maps of the area. He also stated that the gunners miscalculated the firing range of the shells.

Prime Minister Shimon Peres claimed that "We did not know that several hundred people were concentrated in that camp. It came to us as a bitter surprise."Following the attack, Lt.-Gen. Amnon Shahak, Israel's chief of staff, at a press conference in Tel Aviv on April 18 defended the shelling: "I don't see any mistake in judgment... We fought Hezbollah there [in Qana], and when they fire on us, we will fire at them to defend ourselves... I don't know any other rules of the game, either for the army or for civilians...". Both the U.S. and Israel accused Hezbollah of "shielding", the use of civilians as a cover for military activities, which is a breach of the laws of war. The U.S. State Department spokesperson, Nicolas Burns stated, "Hezbollah [is] using civilians as cover. That's a despicable thing to do, an evil thing." and Prime Minister Shimon Peres cited the use of human shielding to blame Hezbollah. On April 18 he said, "They used them as a shield, they used the UN as a shield -- the UN admitted it."

Rabbi Yehuda Amital, a member of Peres' cabinet, called the Qana killings a desecration of God's name (chilul hashem).

The U.N. appointed military advisor Major-General Franklin van Kappen of the Netherlands to investigate the incident. His conclusions were:

(a) The distribution of impacts at Qana shows two distinct concentrations, whose mean points of impact are about 140 metres apart. If the guns were converged, as stated by the Israeli forces, there should have been only one main point of impact.
(b) The pattern of impacts is inconsistent with a normal overshooting of the declared target (the mortar site) by a few rounds, as suggested by the Israeli forces.

(c) During the shelling, there was a perceptible shift in the weight of fire from the mortar site to the United Nations compound.

(d) The distribution of point impact detonations and air bursts makes it improbable that impact fuses and proximity fuses were employed in random order, as stated by the Israeli forces.

(e) There were no impacts in the second target area which the Israeli forces claim to have shelled.

(f) Contrary to repeated denials, two Israeli helicopters and a remotely piloted vehicle were present in the Qana area at the time of the shelling.

While the possibility cannot be ruled out completely, it is unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of gross technical and/or procedural errors.

Amnesty International conducted an on-site investigation of the incident in collaboration with military experts, using interviews with UNIFIL staff and civilians in the compound, and posing questions to the IDF, who did not reply. Amnesty concluded, "the IDF intentionally attacked the UN compound, although the motives for doing so remain unclear. The IDF have failed to substantiate their claim that the attack was a mistake. Even if they were to do so they would still bear responsibility for killing so many civilians by taking the risk to launch an attack so close to the UN compound."[15]

A video recording made by a UNIFIL soldier showed an unmanned drone and a helicopter in the vicinity at the time of the shelling. Uri Dromi, an Israeli government spokesman, confirmed there was a drone in the area, but stated that it did not detect civilians in the compound. The Israel response to the report stated that "The IAF drone shown on videotape did not reach the area until after the UN position was hit and was not an operational component in the targeting of Israeli artillery fire in the area." [citation needed]

On December 15, 2005, relatives of those killed filed suit in a Washington, DC, court against former IDF Chief of Staff Moshe Yaalon for his role in the deaths. The lawsuit was prepared by the Center for Constitutional Rights. Yaalon, who is a visiting scholar in Washington, reportedly refused the papers serving the lawsuit

Massacre in Sanctuary; Eyewitness
By Robert Fisk - 19th April, 1996
http://www.mideastfacts.com/massacre_Fisk.html

Qana-South Lebanon: the place where the Israeli shells killed 102 people, mostly women and children, taking refuge in a United Nations headquarters on April 18, 1996.

Qana, southern Lebanon - It was a massacre. Not since Sabra and Chatila had I seen the innocent slaughtered like this. The Lebanese refugee women and children and men lay in heaps, their hands or arms or legs missing, beheaded or disembowelled. There were well over a hundred of them. A baby lay without a head. The Israeli shells had scythed through them as they lay in the United Nations shelter, believing that they were safe under the world's protection. Like the Muslims of Srebrenica, the Muslims of Qana were wrong.

In front of a burning building of the UN's Fijian battalion headquarters, a girl held a corpse in her arms, the body of a grey- haired man whose eyes were staring at her, and she rocked the corpse back and forth in her arms, keening and weeping and crying the same words over and over: "My father, my father." A Fijian UN soldier stood amid a sea of bodies and, without saying a word, held aloft the body of a headless child.

"The Israelis have just told us they'll stop shelling the area," a UN soldier said, shaking with anger. "Are we supposed to thank them?" In the remains of a burning building - the conference room of the Fijian UN headquarters - a pile of corpses was burning. The roof had crashed in flames onto their bodies, cremating them in front of my eyes. When I walked towards them, I slipped on a human hand...

Israel's slaughter of civilians in this terrible 10-day offensive - 206 by last night - has been so cavalier, so ferocious, that not a Lebanese will forgive this massacre. There had been the ambulance attacked on Saturday, the sisters killed in Yohmor the day before, the 2-year-old girl decapitated by an Israeli missile four days ago. And earlier yesterday, the Israelis had slaughtered a family of 12 - the youngest was a four- day-old baby - when Israeli helicopter pilots fired missiles into their home.

Shortly afterwards, three Israeli jets dropped bombs only 250 metres from a UN convoy on which I was travelling, blasting a house 30 feet into the air in front of my eyes. Travelling back to Beirut to file my report on the Qana massacre to the Independent last night, I found two Israeli gunboats firing at the civilian cars on the river bridge north of Sidon.

Every foreign army comes to grief in Lebanon. The Sabra and Chatila massacre of Palestinians by Israel's militia allies in 1982 doomed Israel's 1982 invasion. Now the Israelis are stained again by the bloodbath at Qana, the scruffy little Lebanese hill town where the Lebanese believe Jesus turned water into wine.

The Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres may now wish to end this war. But the Hizbollah are not likely to let him. Israel is back in the Lebanese quagmire. Nor will the Arab world forget yesterday'a terrible scenes.

The blood of all the refugees ran quite literally in streams from the shell-smashed UN compound restaurant in which the Shiite Muslims from the hill villages of southern Lebanon - who had heeded Israel's order to leave their homes - had pathetically sought shelter. Fijian and French soldiers heaved another group of dead - they lay with their arms tightly wrapped around each other - into blankets.

A French UN trooper muttered oaths to himself as he opened a bag in which he was dropping feet, fingers, pieces of people's arms.

And as we walked through this obscenity, a swarm of people burst into the compound. They had driven in wild convoys down from Tyre and began to pull the blankets off the mutilated corpses of their mothers and sons and daughters and to shriek "Allahu Akbar" (God is Great") and to threaten the UN troops.

We had suddenly become not UN troops and journalists but Westerners, Israel's allies, an object of hatred and venom. One bearded man with fierce eyes stared at us, his face dark with fury. "You are Americans," he screamed at us. "Americans are dogs. You did this. Americans are dogs."

President Bill Clinton has allied himself with Israel in its war against "terrorism" and the Lebanese, in their grief, had not forgotten this. Israel's official expression of sorrow was rubbing salt in their wounds. "I would like to be made into a bomb and blow myself up amid the Israelis," one old man said.

As for the Hizbollah, which has repeatedly promised that Israelis will pay for their killing of Lebanese civilians, its revenge cannot be long in coming. Operation Grapes of Wrath may then turn out then to be all too aptly named.

More interesting stuff from the past..it's deja vu all over again!!!

Smart missile scares Lebanon
By Robert Fisk, The Independent,
7 July 1998
Israel has introduced a new anti-personnel rocket into its guerrilla war in occupied southern Lebanon, a four-foot missile which can be guided over mountains, through valleys and round houses in its search for a target.

Code-named Spike, the new weapon has already been used at least twice in southern Lebanon - both times at night - and has been observed by soldiers of the United Nations' Finnish peacekeeping battalion.

An Amal militiaman was killed and three others wounded when the rocket sought them out near the village of Toulin earlier this year.

The missile appears to be guided to its target either by a control point on the rocket's fuselage - a remote-controlled television camera, for example - or by a line-of-sight controller positioned near the potential victim.

At Toulin, guerrilla sources suspect Israeli troops may have approached the village and remotely guided the weapon - fired from a neighbouring hilltop bunker - on to the guerrillas.

Its disadvantage, noticed by both Finnish UN personnel and by Amal, is that it makes a roaring sound as it approaches its target and emits a three-foot tongue of flame from the rear of the missile.

It was the sound of its engine that alerted the four Amal men, giving three of them time to throw themselves to the ground and avoid serious injury.

The Spike is believed to be made by the Israeli Raphael missile company, which at present has close technical and financial links with the US Lockheed aerodynamics company in Florida.

But the missile has not had a happy career. Weapons specialists believe it was an early model of the Spike - apparently intended to be used in an assassination attempt against Saddam Hussein or against the leader of the Hizbollah guerrillas in Lebanon, Sayed Hassan Nasrallah - that exploded prematurely and killed five Israeli soldiers in the early 1990s. At the time, Israel would only say that five of its men had died in an explosion during a weapons experiment in a desert area.

In southern Lebanon, the Spike was seen climbing over a mountain, flying round the side of a ravine, swooping into a wadi and then turning to head for the village of Toulin.

If it was considered a suitable means of attacking the Iraqi leadership five years ago - when it would presumably have been handed over to American-backed Iraqi assassins - it would have to have been smuggled to Baghdad for use in the city.

Since this sounds more like the plot for a Hollywood film, it is more likely the weapon was intended for the Hizbollah leadership. Sayed Nasrallah's predecessor, Sayed Abbas Moussawi, was himself assassinated by an Israeli guided missile, fitted with a television camera, fired from a helicopter over southern Lebanon in February 1992, as he was returning to Beirut from the village of Jibchit.

While Israel has been trying to introduce new technology into its war inside southern Lebanon, the Hizbollah themselves have clearly acquired a considerable quantity of extra weapons in the past few weeks.

In last week's mass attack on positions run by Israeli occupation troops, it now transpires, the Hizbollah fired 83 Saggar wire-guided anti-tank missiles at artillery batteries belonging to Israeli occupation forces.

They were also seen using recoilless rifles - small artillery pieces fired from trucks - and 49mm Russian anti-aircraft guns fired with flat trajectories at Israeli positions. Both these weapons are old - but ferocious enough when fired over open sights at fixed positions in the hills of southern Lebanon.

Far more disturbing for the Israelis is the growing suspicion that the Hizbollah have also acquired a new, longer-range version of the Katyusha rocket, with a range of up to 50 miles. In theory, this would put Haifa in range of the guerrillas.

In reality, a longer-range rocket is more likely to be used not against Haifa but against Israeli troops inside southern Lebanon - fired from Beirut or its suburbs. This would geographically extend any future guerrilla war in Lebanon to embrace up to half the country.

A five-power monitoring group continues to meet to hear complaints from Lebanese and Israelis about breaches of the 1996 ceasefire in southern Lebanon.

The committee is to hear at least 11 complaints from both sides when it meets again later this week. Israel is complaining Hizbollah are now using 122mm artillery against them. Hizbollah's capture of an Israeli position last week demonstrated yet again how poorly Israel is able to defend its occupation zone inside Lebanon.

And thats just one incident - we did not even get to Israeli gun boats firing white phosphorus into Lebanese villages ....although I suppose the AIzionistPAC) folks already have there response for that...

"It was widely understood that contrary to reports that Israeli Gunboats were using Phosphurus to kill civilians in actual fact the goal was to light up the area enough so that the civilaians could make their escape. It was a humanitarion gesture. And it also never happened."

And from Sal Whataputz the famous IV League lawyer..."well although the use of phosphurus is not tactitly accepted by the Geneva convention..once could, and indeed should, make the argument that the site of their fellow human beings burnt to a crisp could actually result in the saving of lives as those not immediately incinerated would make a much greater effort to hide and/or escape"..

Wow - I think my wires are getting crossed again....

Thanks for the propoganda clippings. And now back to reality....

They wanted war and got one. Now either win or lose, but please stop whining about it.

Did it ever occur to you that those propoganda "news" stories read like pulp fiction?

But I guess that's the kind of crazy lies you have to belive in order to rationalize the murder of innocent jewish civilians.

That sort of blindness is stunning to the rational mind. Like worshiping rocks! How in the world can these people swallow all that madness? How can you not see how crazy it all is?

"But I guess that's the kind of crazy lies you have to belive in order to rationalize the murder of innocent jewish civilians."

You are kidding, right?

There is (as you well know in your heart) NO such thing because those are not "innocent jewish civilians" in occupied palestine but rather thieving zionists who are stealing people's land and resources and depriving them of their rights and freedoms. They can either live under palestinian rule or risk being taken care of. Eventually, Palestine will be sanitized, one way or another.

Here is a suggestion for you and your your zioinist herds..why not go settle in the west bank so that you get yourself a palestinian stone in the forehead? It just may wake you up and knock some sense in your head.
There are very good reasons why your people have never been welcomed by anyone where ever they existed. It says more about you than I, or anyone for that, ever could.

A nice article written by an Israeli jew
[The Palestinians have no chance, unless we free our souls from Jewish control.
Gaza: Of Mice and Men

By Israel Adam Shamir

A cat called to the mouse holed up under the floor: "Come out, you have nothing to worry about! I have become a pious vegetarian, preparing for my Hajj, you may play freely". "Oh wonderful news", cried the mouse and ran out of the hole; a moment of the eternity clock passed, and the mouse found herself in cat's claws, goes Nizami's fable.
This is, in brief, the development of Gaza crisis that began with Israel's phoney but much advertised "withdrawal" (a.k.a. "disengagement") from Gaza in summer 2005, followed by their phoney permission to run democratic elections for the Palestinian government.....]- Read full article at:
http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Gaza_Mice_Men.htm

Michael O,

I suppose I can base my beliefs about the relationship between The Israeli settler movement and world terrorism on several sources:

1) I have quoted him many times before. Here I go again. Bill Clinton (after he was out of office and able to tell the truth again) said that a fair and equitable end to the Israeli Palestinian conflict would "Remove the philophical underpinning of middle eastern terrorist recruitment."

2) You are probably already very aware of how Jimmy Carter Feels. You may try to make light of his views (As many pro settlement people do, but he was President of the US and he knows a great deal more about the situation than you do.

3) Colin Powell is in agreement

4) virtually every country in the world condemns the settlements and acknowledges their serious contribution to the problem of world terrorism as evidenced by a great manm UN resolutions.

5) Tony Blair stated before the US congress after 9/11 that there will never be an end to the war on terrorisn until there is an end to the Palestinian Conflict (ie, the end of the settlements)

7) Osama bin laden simply cannot shut up about how he thought up the plan for 9/11 when he saw the towers in Beirut burning (thanks to the israeli invasion, thanks to to the settler movement)and about how inspired he is by the plight of the Palestinian people.

So, I glean my position on the effects that the setlement movement has had on world terroism by looking at the opinions of past (and to some extent present) Presidents of the US, almost the entire population of the world including many of their leaders (including our closest ally in the war in Iraq) and the very terrorists that are now attacking our soil
due to our participation in maintaining the subjugation of the Palestinin people while paying to help to grow the settlements.

Regarding all the doubletalk about whether to use the green line or not, how the settlments started historically and all related attempts to charactorize a crime against humanity that virtualy the entire world condemns as some sort of misunderstanding, I am simply not going to bother discussing it. Even you yourself admit that it should and will come to an end. So why not sooner than later?

Here are some immediate benefits to quitting all settlements, east Jerusalem, and rebuilding the wall on the green line.

The entire family of legitimate nations welcomes Israel back into the fold. The US and Israel finally gain some semblence of the moral highground. The US can stop paying Israel the huge amount of yearly welfare that it takes to maintain the costly and pointless occupation.

Terrorism will be reduced by this action. both in Israel (again, please see the rationale and suport for this view above) and worldwide (To quote Osama bin Laden, if we simply hated freedom, why did we not attack, say Sweden?). This move will reduce terrorism because it will reduce terrorist recruitment. (again see rationale above)

The Occupation and the settlement movement are the oxygen that keeps Hamas and Hezbollah alive and also gives the blowhards in Iran and Syria something to dazzle the people with so they forget what crappy circumstances they actually live in.

So, yes I do lay a good portion (not all, but a good Portion) of Islamic world terrorism at the settlement movements feet (not at the feet of Israel, as many Israelis despise the Settler movement as much as most of the rest of the world does.) And I do not blame Israel for any thing else, so you can save the attempts to insinuate that I am somehow anti semitic. In fact I blame the US at least as much as the Settlement movement, in that we have payed for it and tacitly defended it when it would have folded like a buggy whip company without 40 years of welfare to sustain it.

J

ALERT: American citizens are now slowly being ferried out of Lebanan...to escape the brutal pounding of innocents by Israeli arms paid for by Americans. Isn't the Jewish nation a treat?
By the way Wapo columnist Richard Cohen today calls the creation of Israel a "mistake". Hooyah.

J.

Well Said - Hear Hear!!

So Jack2 any news story that does not have a pro - israel spin is "propaganda" in your eyes...interesting..

You may not know it but Robert Fisk is a highly respected journalist - yes he has written some stories critical of America in the past but he is married to an American and I for one have always found his stories balanced and well worth the read. Mainly because he tends to be "on the ground"...

It may be false but I am hearing that US citizens are being charged by the Government for their evacuation.

If this is true can we please reimburse them and deduct the money from israel's AFDC (welfare) check.

"Did it ever occur to you that those propoganda "news" stories read like pulp fiction?

But I guess that's the kind of crazy lies you have to belive in order to rationalize the murder of innocent jewish civilians.

That sort of blindness is stunning to the rational mind. Like worshiping rocks! How in the world can these people swallow all that madness? How can you not see how crazy it all is?"

Well jack2 (reality) ....if we explored the majority of the major relegions I think we can find someaspects that could be considered a bit silly...

So may I ask - apart from yourself - what or who do you worship?

JACK 2. Let me guess. RE: Your obsession about whining? I'll bet your momma accuses you of that all the time. Calls you a little smart alec, etc., and tells you to stop whining. So you have to pass it along. True?
Does anyone reading these posts above doubt why anti-semitism flourishes now? And add the massacre in Lebanon.

"It may be false but I am hearing that US citizens are being charged by the Government for their evacuation...."
-by Angus

No, it's not false. This is completely true as you may definitively know by now. I understand your shock and disappointment over this, however. Any true American would be. The days when America was proud and took world class care of its citizens and their well being are over. Please keep in mind that most of these American citizens (mostly women and children) are christians and any help or support given to them by our treasonous "american" government certainly would not sit well with AIPAC or the hateful,vicious, and anti-american neo cons and judeo cons. They much rather see that money (as little as it would be) spent on a few shells to the terrorist , baby killer israel to maim and murder more children and women in Lebanon and Palestine. Besides, we are being drained financially and militarily by fighting Israel's dirty colonial wars. So far we have spent close to 700 billion dollars on the failed zionist war in Iraq as of this point and killed and maimed close to a million Iraqis. We soon are going to need a few times more than $700 BILLION to fight the coming zionist wars in Syria and Iran. In addition, we need to finance the illegal zionist settlements in occupied Palestine and the occupied Golan Heights (and be ready to pay for their eventual demolition and "compensating" the zionist settlers who stole the land to begin with. Of course, one can't forget the $ 3-5 billion a year we have to religously give to the terrorist israel in arms and in welfair to keep AIPAC and the zionists at large happy. There is no American pride left. look at the Europeans and see how fast and effciently they evacuated their citizens. I will leave it to you and to the readers to guess if these European governments are asking their citizen to play a few embarrasing dollars to be evacuated from under the fire of the zionist onslaught. Whose government is this "American" government? and when the hell will the brain-washed American public wake up and say enough of this- its about time we become free and proud Americans again?
Well, I don't know about you, But I for one am ashamed to be american these days. I still have some hope, however, that one day- hopefully soon, I will once again stand tall and be proud - as an American.

Lets just hope that the terrorist israel does not bomb these ships being used to evacuate these americans and blame it on hizbolla, iran, or syria to further advance its agenda of getting this country into war with muslims and arabs? Remeber the USS liberty and the american sailors whome israel maimed and murdered?

>"....if we explored the majority of the major relegions I think we can find someaspects that could be considered a bit silly..."

I didn't write the crazy facts about Islam for your sake but for sane people who have no idea that you really worship rocks.

Likewise, most people don't know that the crescent moon is a symbol of a moon diety named "allah" that was worshiped in ancient Arabia.

Just as there are thousands of ancient manuscripts that prove the jews worshipped Yahweh, there are thousands of clay tablets that prove the arabs, and other tribes in the region, worshipped the sun, moon and stars (and fish and alligators and snakes and dung beetles, etc).

Originally they worshiped hundreds of false gods and sacraficed their children too.

And now these guys are running around in the modern world demanding everyone submit and worship thier moon rock or die!

It's all so bazarre you can't make it up. Google it if you want to find more.

well, jack2- how about googling a little bit and finding some of the nastinees of your talmud and old testament?

See to yourself how hateful the god(S) in those teachings are. Also, in these teachings, you guys take full responsibility (and boost of) killing jesus. It also shows how much to hate and kill christians in these teachings.

Interesting news today out of the Middle East.

It was a miracle that the Israeli ship, the Saar, wasn't sunk by the Iranian C-802 missile. It's just not plausible that a 360mm, 1500 pound missile traveling at 600+ mph hits a small boat like the Saar and does only minor damage.

The boat crew claim their anti-missile systems were off because they didn't know Iran had given these missiles to the Hezbo army.

So what saved them?

jack2 wrote

"I didn't write the crazy facts about Islam for your sake but for sane people who have no idea that you really worship rocks. "

So i guess you are assuming that because I oppose zionism I must be a Muslim -

FYI I am not - as far as I am concerned everyone is entitled to worship whoever or whateverthey want but its not for me - all the great crimes against humanity can be laid at the feet of religion.

So let me ask since you seem to have an irrational hatred of Muslims re you advocating their disposal? It's sort of unclear.

Also zionism is opposed by people of all religions including many jews.

Maybe the missile was deflected by a meteorite!!

Why not take the $3 billion we give Israel - and use it to hunt down obl/ubl?

Cool with you zionist guys?

Angus, it took me so long to write/rewrite that last post that I forgot who I was talking to. Okay, you're not a muslim.

Now you seem to want to prove that my religion is weird? You can argue anything.

However, I find you positions illogical. On the one hand, you say everyone should have freedom of religion, but on the other you say that religion is responsible for most of the evil in the world. Why would you want people to follow religions that are causing most of the evils?

And at the risk of totally changing the subject....

If there is no God, is life an accident? Did mankind evolve from slime? If so, then why are you passionate about anything? Nothing matters except food and sex. And a human baby has no more value than a rock, unless it's your baby, and then only as long as you're alive.

Prove me wrong! Without God, you have nothing to measure your words against. A hero is a fool, and love is meanless. Everthing came from the void and is going back to void.

I told you the subject would change.

Actually I am agnostic...

I don't know what your religion is so I am not sure how I can imply that it is wierd.

Please note I don't WANT people to follow anything ...it's their choice not mine and it's also not my right to tell them what to do or how to think..

Please also note I have never postulated on the existence or non-existence of God...

I question man's interpretation of who God is and what he wants us to do in his/her name..

One of my favorites is the WWJD brigade ...unfortunately I think what he would do is fall to his knees and sob his heart out if he saw he what was going on in the Middle East...

You never answered the question regarding what you want to happen or for you to do with Muslims.....

I am not trying to goad you into a position but you have made statements that lead me to believe you have an opinion..

>"You never answered the question regarding what you want to happen or for you to do with Muslims....."

What should be done is the muslims should get off Israeli lands and stop starting wars.

>"You never answered the question regarding what you want to happen or for you to do with Muslims....."

What should be done is the muslims should get off Israeli lands and stop starting wars.

"What should be done is the muslims should get off Israeli lands and stop starting wars." jack2 (aka: saxyboy)
What a deceptive zionist you are. Are you that drunk with your hate and stupidity?

Israel has no land. It stole the lands of muslims and arabs just as you zionist have been stealing american money and technology. So the solution (and only solution)is for the savage israelis to get off of arab and muslim land if not by choice..then they will eventually be made to do so by force. It may take a long time for that to happen, but it is going to sooner or later. No one can withstand you people, much less live their lives with you. You are just too greedy and unreasonable to be lived with in peace. The only thing you understand is violence. We are sick and tired of you living off of our skin like the parasites that you are and have been through out history. If it has not been for the wicked american government that you have hijaked you wouldn't have a chance to be anyone or own anything. so get a life and try to slide your head of of your behind. maybe only you can think straight. You can either choose to live under the rules of a palestinian state or if you don't like them, you can get out of there. The future will judge you very harshly.

"What should be done is the muslims should get off Israeli lands and stop starting wars"

Pretty lame argument jack but I guess when you get into a battle of wits you can't do much when you're firing blanks....

OK I just looked at these pictures ...

http://fromisrael2lebanon.com/

I've got to say - olmert and your murdering thugs would have to evolve for another 1000 lifetimes to even be considered pond scum...and for all of you who are defending this you are just as bad if not worse...

this is not about religion its about murder...

yes they do sh*tty things to you guys too -I've said before anyone who dispatches another human being especially a child to kill and maim others is a worthless piece of sh*t but this shows you are no better than them no matter what high minded ideals you claim to possess..

Shame on you all..

>"What a deceptive zionist you are. Are you that drunk with your hate and stupidity?...."

I started as an impartial observer and have come to the only logical conclusion, that the jews are overwhelming in the right in all of this, and the islamo-facists are lunatics in every sense of the word.

History:

Most jews were driven out of Judea by the Romans after the destruction of their Temple in Jerusalem (Which is now the foundation stones underneath a muslim shrine to sacred moon rocks). Some jews stayed in Judea but most were forcibly removed.

Jews were persecuted for centuries outside Israel, and they started returning in large numbers in the 1800s. Many purchased land from the locals or from Turkish investors who had never even seen the land.

During WWI, the US President agreed with the European Allies that all of the peoples in the former Ottoman Empire should be free to exercise self-determination ("Gee, thanks, America!"), including the jews in the areas where they constitued a majority. Many jews fought on the side of the Allies and helped to defeat the Ottomans. Almost all arabs fought with the Ottomans and lost. They fought for the imperialist Turkish oppressors against their own chance for self-determination.

After losing with the Turks, they were rewarded by the USA and Europe (in spite of themselves) with almost all of the land in the defunct Ottoman Empire. Jews were attacked and/or driven out by laws from the new arab countries where they setup despotic regimes to govern themselves. And the arabs refused to agree that the jews could be allowed to setup any self-government in the sliver of the land set aside for the jewish state.

Then along comes WWII. The arabs side with the nazis this time. (Google "grand mufti of Jerusalem" and discover what the arabs had in store for the jews in the Middle East had Hitler won. And Google "iran aryan nazi" and discover why Persia changed it's name to Iran). But the nazis lose WWII and so their arab allies are left alone again, losers in another war.

After seeing the results of the Holocaust, the world (and the UN) finally decide to stop pandering to the arabs and recognize the state of Israel. The arabs start war after war against Israel, and they lose war after war to Israel.

After losing on the battlefield so many times, their tactics become more and more sadistic. Knowing they cannot defeat a professional army in the field, they turn to murdering women and children. Which brings us to the present day.

The arabs continue to send wave after wave of desparate "warriors" against jewish civilians. They promise that all this bloodshed is justified because their god wants the jews dead, and it's a desparate struggle after all. You need only turn on a TV to see video of muslim children goose-stepping along dressed in funeral black garb and carrying assault rifles.

How did this culture go insane? Most Westerners are too busy to care, but you don't have to look far to see it. It is right on the surface--ISLAM.

The Koran is the instruction book of Islam, and Mohammad is the author of that book.

Did you know that Mohammad documented that the inspiration for the Koran was given to him by demons? When he went into one of his fits, his wife would throw a rug on him, and then someone would take dictation as he flopped about on the floor. The eventual result was a book called the Koran.

That explains why they worship of a meteorite!

This explains how they can rationalize murdering their daughters for daring to date or wear lipstick.

This explains why drinking a sip of wine is a capital offence.

It's no wonder their idea of valor is to murder innocent civilians and the reward they dreamed up is eternal sex with six dozens of strange women in their heaven.

How brainwashed can you get!?

And the poor jews have these people for neighbors.

>"OK I just looked at these pictures..."

I take it that you are against killing human beings?

On what grounds?

My own sense of morality.

What's your point?

Do you condone this?

Have you looked at them?

>"My own sense of morality."

Where did you sense of morality come from? Is that from?

Are you trustworthy? Have you ever lied? Do you change?

And why should anyone else care about your personal code? You are the only person who will ever subscribe to it.

I don't expect you or anyone to care about my code - I could be writing for my own edification....you?

I notice you sideskip questions relating to where your belief system springs from - you are obviously a hater of the meteorite worshippers as you call them but what about you?

Did you look at the pictures or are you as gutless as you appear to be?

Are u saxyboy?

>"I notice you sideskip questions relating to where your belief system springs from...."

I am not on trial here, and I don't have to answer demands anymore than you do.

I am a Christian.

>"I notice you sideskip questions relating to where your belief system springs from...."

I am not on trial here, and I don't have to answer demands anymore than you do.

I am a Christian.

I dont make demands I asked questions -

You seem to me (and I could be wrong) to have a Biblical take on the whole issue - so are you of the belief that Christ will return when the Jews are in control of all the Holy Land?

A question not a demand - if you choose not to answer so be it. Fine with me.

>"are you of the belief that Christ will return when the Jews are in control of all the Holy Land?"

I have never heard it said that the jews would be in control of the whole Holy Land when Jesus returned.

It was prophesied that the jews would return to Israel, that the world would be in constant war, that there would be unusual weather and many earthquakes, that many women would lose natural love for their own children, that men would lust for each other and women likewise, and that people would put jews to death, thinking they were doing God a favor.

It was prophesied that the arabs would be wild men and against the rest of the world, and the rest of the world against them.

It was prophesied that there would not be peace in Jerusalem, and the world would not be able to resolve that problem.

And it was prophesied that a false religion would appear, one that in particular had no regard for women, and they would kill jews and christians.

You can read all of that in today's news, can you not?

There should not be any criticism of any religion. All religions are based on doing the right thing, and being kind to ALL human beings. People who kill in the name of any religion are misguided fundamentalists, and do not reflect the majority populous of any religion.

I know lots of muslims and lots of jews, and all of them are wonderful people. They do not have any animosity toward the other's religion, and can live in peace as neighbors. Unfortunately, the Middle East has large numbers of fundamentalists on both sides, which causes misery for the people in the area that are just trying to live their lives.

Instead of complaining about the past ("you started it"..."no, you started it", sounds like a bunch of elementary school kids), why not stop killing people and try to move forward in creating an area where these 2 religions can co-exist with each other?

The unfortunate reality is that someone will have to take the higher ground, and stop striking back. The question is - who has the bigger cojones to do that? Until that happens, I don't think there will ever be peace in the region.

Not really getting where you are going Jack - is it the end of days?

I always find it amusing to read about the friendship between zionists and fundamental christians - both sides pretending love and mutual admiration - but both really out to use the other side behind their backs once their own goals have been met -

That may be the next big battle in the Holy Land!!

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0395/9503079.htm

Jack2:

"Most jews were driven out of Judea by the Romans after the destruction of their Temple in Jerusalem (Which is now the foundation stones underneath a muslim shrine to sacred moon rocks). Some jews stayed in Judea but most were forcibly removed."

Why not mention that the Israelites invaded Canaan and killed most of them in order to establish biblical Israel.

How come the suffering and lives of Canaanite don't matter to you?

It seems to me that what the Romans did is no different than what the Israelites did to the natives.

>"Why not mention that the Israelites invaded Canaan and killed most of them in order to establish biblical Israel."

Sometimes God judges individual people and He judges whole countries. And what you mentioned is simply one case where God overthrew some city-states or kingdoms. There are many more instances of this recorded.

>"It seems to me that what the Romans did is no different than what the Israelites did to the natives."

It is the same thing as before. Israel was destroyed for rejecting the Messiah.

Don't you know that Israel was judged several times and the country destroyed several times? Each time they were warned, and afterwards, they were allowed to come back and rebuild.

It's no different from individual humans. Ignore the warnings, and your life will be more painful than it needs to be.

markb,

What is the path to salvation?

>"How come the suffering and lives of Canaanite don't matter to you?"

I didn't mince words about the destruction of Israel. What would you have liked me to say about the Canaanites?

As an aside, were you aware that the Canaanite's sacrificed their children to baal?

Here is the path to salvation

http://www.roadsideamerica.com/geo/showMap.php?attractionNo=185

Good God, what a dim bulb our secretary of state is. She could hardly make eye contact at her briefing. Mumbled. Two states she presumes to visit won't receive her!!! And our evacuation in Lebanon is about as good as in Katrina.
A prominent israeli commentator notes that the Israel HAD to invade, Israel's dignity was lost when the soldiers were taken! And he couldn't understand why collective punishment could be deemed a bad thing. Everyone else calls it terrorism. And the innocents continue to be killed and maimed, courtesy of American arms and american taxpayers. Aren't you proud?

Path to salvation - interesting way to put it. I was thinking more like "Can't we all just get along?"...

I don't know the answer. If it was an easy answer, I'm sure someone would have figured it out by now. My own perspective is that this conflict began so long ago. Most people fighting were not even born when this began (for the sake of discussion, let's say this began in 1948).

Right now, in many countries, Jews and Arabs co-exist peacefully. Is there a way to transfer those learnings into the Middle East area? I don't know. Just a thought.

I've been to arab nations and Israel, and I never ran into anyone who raved about killing the other side. Granted I was just talking with normal people in the streets, and not politicans... They were just people trying to live their lives, like you and me.

Does anyone have any good realistic ideas (not involving genocide or exile)? As things are right now, both arabs and jews have the right to live where they are. They just need to stop persecuting their neighbors.

Convert them all to Scientology perhaps?

Israeli soldiers use civilians as human shields in Beit Hanun
Report, B'Tselem, 20 July 2006

Palestinians inspect the ruins of their house that was attacked by Israeli forces, who withdrew from Beit Hanoun, northern Gaza Strip 18 July 2006. (MaanImages/Wesam Saleh)

B'Tselem's initial investigation indicates that, during an incursion by Israeli forces into Beit Hanun, in the northern Gaza Strip, on 17 July 2006, soldiers seized control of two buildings in the town and used residents as human shield.

After seizing control of the buildings, the soldiers held six residents, two of them minors, on the staircases of the two buildings, at the entrance to rooms in which the soldiers positioned themselves, for some twelve hours. During this time, there were intense exchanges of gunfire between the soldiers and armed Palestinians. The soldiers also demanded that one of the occupants walk in front of them during a search of all the apartments in one of the buildings, after which they released her.

International humanitarian law forbids using civilians as human shields by placing them next to soldiers or next to military facilities, with the intention of gaining immunity from attack, or by forcing the civilians to carry out dangerous military assignments.

B'Tselem has demanded that the Judge Advocate General immediately order a Military Police investigation into the matter and prosecute the soldiers responsible for the action.

Chronology of the Events

In the IDF's Operation Summer Rains in the Gaza Strip following the abduction of Cpl. Gilad Shalit, engineer, artillery, and infantry forces made an incursion into Beit Hanun, a town of some 32,000 people in the northern Gaza Strip, early in the morning on 17 July. According to the IDF Spokesperson, during the incursion, "IDF struck approximately twenty armed terrorists." The announcement added that, "Forces also carried out engineering work to harm terror organizations' infrastructure and hamper their activity, and arrested a number of wanted men... During searches, forces discovered three Kalashnikov rifles, a carbine, a pistol, and ammunition."

Around 6:00 A.M., troops in armored personnel carriers and bulldozers drove up to two adjacent four-story buildings in the middle of the town, near the a-Nasser mosque. The bulldozers destroyed the concrete wall around each building and then destroyed one of the external walls on the ground floor of each of the buildings. The extended Kafarneh family lives on the bottom three floors of one of the buildings. On the fourth floor are the offices of the Ramatan Palestinian News Agency. The 'Ali family lives in the other building.

Part of the force, twelve soldiers in the estimate of one of the witnesses, burst into the Kafarneh building through the area where the wall was destroyed, firing stun grenades as they entered. At the time, there were 25 people in the building, including 11 children. Some of those present were from the 'Ali family who left the adjacent building when the military entered Beit Hanun. The soldiers called all the residents to gather in the living room on the ground floor, and then searched them. Threatening the occupants with his weapon, one of the soldiers ordered 'Aza Kafarneh, a 43-year old woman, to accompany him to search each of the floors in the building and to open the doors of each of the rooms. At the end of the search, the soldiers ordered all the occupants, except for three, to leave the building. As they left, there was a heavy exchange of gunfire between IDF soldiers and Palestinians. In her testimony to B'Tselem, 'Aza Kafarneh related that, in light of the situation, she requested the soldier to let them remain in the building, but the soldiers refused. "We had to lay flat on the ground and crawl to the neighbor's house..."

The three who were kept in the building were two of her sons, Hazem, 14, and Qusay, 16, and her nephew, Khaled, 23. The three were taken to the staircase, at the entrance to the third-floor apartment, where the soldiers were located. The three sat there until around 8:00 P.M, about 45 minutes before the soldiers left the building. During this time, soldiers inside and outside the building were engaged in exchanges of gunfire with armed Palestinians. The staircase was not in the direct line of gunfire. Just before the end of the incident, the soldiers ordered the three to go downstairs, in front of them, to the entrance of the building.

At the same time (around 6:00 AM), other members of the military force had seized control of the building in which the 'Ali family lives. The only people in the building were the mother, 'Ayesha, 60, and her three sons, Hazem, 29, Tareq, 25, and 'Emad, 41. 'Ayesha 'Ali was taken into an interior room on the ground floor, where she stayed with her hands tied until the end of the events.

The soldiers ordered her three sons to undress and then searched them. The soldiers then cuffed their hands behind their back and blindfolded them. According to the testimony of Hazem, the soldiers tightened the cuffs intentionally so as to hurt them. One of the soldiers kicked him in the chest after he complained about the pain. However, when his hands began to swell and bleed from the cuffs, another soldier put a new pair of cuffs on his hands.

'Emad, who serves in the Palestinian police force, handed over his personal weapon at the beginning of the events, in response to the soldiers' demand. Another member of the family who also serves in a Palestinian police unit was not present at the time. Soldiers searched for his weapon, but they did not find it. During the search, the soldiers broke a lot of the family's furniture and caused great destruction in some of the apartments.

Following the search, one of the soldiers took Hazem's cell phone and called four persons whose numbers were in the phone's memory. The soldier told each of them: "If you want Hazem, Tareq, and 'Emad released, bring your weapons." According to Hazem's testimony, the four persons work with him at Ramatan and were selected at random; none of them have any weapons.

Around 8:00 A.M., the three men were taken to the staircase next to the third-floor apartment, where the soldiers were gathered. The three remained on the stairs, their hands cuffed behind their back and their eyes covered, until 8:45 P.M., when the soldiers left the building. At a certain point, one of the brothers, Tareq, moved a bit, and a soldier hit him in the chest and threatened to kill him. While they sat there, an intense exchange of gunfire took place between soldiers in the building and armed Palestinians outside. In contrast to the situation in the other building, many bullets entered the staircase area via the window and struck the wall, above the heads of the three occupants. One of the brothers, 'Emad, was taken by the soldiers at the end of the incident and remains in Israeli detention.

During the events, 'Aza Kafarneh was in contact with B'Tselem and asked the organization to help attain the release of her family members who were being held by the soldiers. A B'Tselem staff member, Najib Abu Rokaya, called the IDF's District Coordination Office in the Gaza Strip and warned them about the incident. The soldier on the other end of the phone referred Abu Rokaya to the DCO's legal advisor, Captain Haim Sharbit. After Abu Rokaya spoke with him, Sharbit said that he could do nothing about the matter because "we are not familiar with the incident."

Legal Background

The testimonies taken by B'Tselem indicate that the Israeli soldiers who took over the buildings used the occupants as human shields. They placed civilians on the staircase, next to the rooms where the soldiers were located, with the intention of deterring the armed Palestinians from attacking the building and/or so that the civilians would be located between the soldiers and the armed Palestinians, should the latter manage to penetrate the building and try to shoot them. The soldiers used one of the occupants to open the doors of the apartments, apparently out of fear that other persons were hiding there and would open fire when the door was opened.

International humanitarian law, which states the rules applying in armed conflicts, requires the sides to distinguish between combatants and civilians, and to protect the lives and dignity of civilians. The Fourth Geneva Convention, in Article 27, states that civilians who find themselves in the hands of one of the parties are "entitled, in all circumstances, to respect... They shall at all times be humanely treated, and shall be protected especially against all acts of violence or threats thereof..."

Article 28 of the Convention expressly prohibits the use of civilians as human shields by placing them alongside soldiers or military facilities, with the hope of attaining immunity from attack. The official commentary of the Convention refers to this practice, which was common in the Second World War as "cruel and barbaric." The Convention, in Articles 31 and 51, also prohibits the use of physical or moral coercion on civilians or forcing them to carry out military tasks.

Despite these prohibitions, for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives. It was not until a High Court petition was filed by Israeli human rights organizations opposing such action, in May 2002, that the IDF issued a general order prohibiting the use of Palestinians as "a means of 'human shield' against gunfire or attacks by the Palestinian side.'" Following this order, the use of this practice declined sharply. However, according to IDF interpretation, assistance by Palestinians, with their consent, in warning a wanted person hiding in a certain location is not deemed use of a human shield. However, this practice was also outlawed following the ruling of the Israeli High Court of Justice that this practice is inconsistent with the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Clearly, then, the IDF's treatment of the Palestinian occupants in the two Beit Hanun buildings flagrantly breached fundamental rules of international humanitarian law, as well as IDF regulations. B'Tselem wrote to the military's Judge Advocate General and demanded that he immediately order a Military Police investigation regarding this incident, and that he prosecute all those responsible for these illegal acts.

>"Israeli soldiers use civilians as human shields in Beit Hanun
Report, B'Tselem, 20 July 2006"

B'Tselem's agenda is greater than their credibility.

Every report they write is anti-Israel in the most acidic terms. In their "statistics" a terrorist is a civilian, and they are held in near contempt by groups that watchdog NGOs and/or accurate reporting. There is more of fabrication that facts about these people.

B'Tselem is a brash anti-Israel organization.

I could maybe BEAR AMERICA BEING DESPISED AROUND THE WORLD NOW if we were for a moralor even defendable reason. Instead it falls to me and my generation-- of a family in this country since the beginning-- to fall so low as to support the savage, maurading, brutal ilegitimate Israel in it's bid to take over the middle east land and oil. Dead women and children, half a million people displaced. And Bush sends the bstrds hot bombs. There are no words.
No one in the world wanted to take in Jews during WWII....America did. Hasn't it turned out well.

>"I could maybe BEAR AMERICA BEING DESPISED...."

Pull the other one.

Jack2 wrote -

"B'Tselem is a brash anti-Israel organization"

B'Tselem is an Israeli Human Rights Organization.

Jack2 wrote -
"B'Tselem is a brash anti-Israel organization"

Angus wrote -
>"B'Tselem is an Israeli Human Rights Organization."

Israel is a "Democracy" where people who disagree with their government can speak out. They can even form organizations dedicated to disagreeing with their government, and B'Tselem is such an organization.

I know that in places like Iran or Syrian or Saudi Arabia or Qatar or Yemen or Egypt or Jordan or Pakistan (name any Islamic state), people don't have such freedoms. In those countries, you only have to SPEAK something bad about the government or the leader and they drag you away and torture you to death.

You can find many examples of NGO's like B'Tselem on both sides of the political spectrum in democratic countries around the world. And you can find watch-dog groups who make it their job to expose the activities and inaccurate reporting.

Google "ngo monitor" if you don't believe me.

So what's your point - you were critical of B'Tselem at first -

"Jack2 wrote -

"B'Tselem is a brash anti-Israel organization"

Now you are using them as a testimony to Israel's democracy - I don't think anyone here is disputing Israel is a democratic governed country ...

If you are saying that because Israel is more democratic than the many Arabic & Persian countries you detail it somehow gives them a mandate to blow the living cr*p out of their neighbours then your logic is flawed ..

Also since I cannot query in Arabic, Dari, Urdu, Persian, Russian, Kazakh, Turkish, Indonesian, Tagalog, etc etc. I cannot validate your claim that they have no Human rights organizations...

>"So what's your point - you were critical of B'Tselem at first..."

You missed my point.

Because they were established in a democratic country, they can call themselves a "Human Rights Organization" and then set about writing left-wing, anti-Israel propaganda if they want. I suppose they chose to call themselves a "Human Rights Organization" to lend credibility to their reports.

But that didn't help. Their reporting is biased to the point of being worthless propaganda.

Why don't you stick to reliable sources like CNN? I read a story on CNN last night about how the UN was angry at the Hezbo army because they are celebrating the deaths of so many women and children (instead of their "soldiers"). I believe the UN official called them cowards. This is unusual because the UN is usually anti-Israel in conflicts.

"because the UN is usually anti-Israel in conflicts"

So do you think thats why the IDF attacked and killed 4 of them today ?

People should decide for themselves.

http://www.btselem.org/index.asp

And I do watch CNN - on Saturday Dr Sanjay Gupta reporting from Beirut informed us how in his many years in combat zones a Red Cross or Red Crescent usually meant freedom from attack.

He then reorted that the IAF had attacked Hospitals and Ambulances in Lebanon making the jobs of livesavers much more difficult...

Thats your moral Israeli attack forces for you....

> "People should decide for themselves.
http://www.btselem.org/index.asp"

Yes, they should:

http://www.ngo-monitor.org/

>>"because the UN is usually anti-Israel in conflicts"

>"So do you think thats why the IDF attacked and killed 4 of them today ?"

Kofi backed off on his accusations against Israel today. He popped-off yesterday without any evidence and only scant information, as is usual for him.

The General Secy of the UN is supposed to exemplify impartiality in conflicts. But Kofi is anything but neutral.

Putting aside the history of this conflict (written above), and the bizarre religious beliefs involved (also stated above), and just considering the following:

1. Israel holds back using many weapons in their arsenal that could end this war, sacrificing their own military and civilians in order to spare Lebanese civilians, while trying to defeat the terrorists.

2. The Hezbo army position their forces among their own wives, mothers and children in order the gain sympathy thru their deaths while launching anti-personnel rockets blindly into cities.

If you know this, and you still think the Hezbo army are somehow heroic, then you're blind.

The jews aren't perfect; they aren't always in the right, but neither are they the bane of the species who should be exterminated (as school children are taught throughout the Middle East).

Open your eyes.

Iran bans the word "Pizza"!

...and thousands of other words which they find to be offensive.

Reminds me of Orwell's "1984".

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,206196,00.html