imagine rockets falling on american soil from canada on one hand, and terrorists shelling us from mexico while both governments claim innocence and helplessness, thereby refusing to lift a finger against the militants. would our government hesitate to put pressure on civilians to make new choices and adopt new heroes?

Every one seems to be fighting this war with the enemies rules and which group ever won a war in that manner.Follow a heavy weight boxers methods and give it the best of what you have,as long as you can.

Hezbollah's capture of two Israeli soldiers ...
The Word "capture"... is wrong..
You do not capture a person from his home... You Kidnap him.
Please correct... (elementary english? or is intended?)

Sanity should prevail but who is sane in the Middle East?

Whilst Israel is in occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, to say nothing of East Jerusalem, and refuses to deal with issues such as a right of return of Palestinian refugess, what does the rest of the world expect? Imagine part of the USA was occupied by Mexico. No doubt US citizens would refain from any efforts to overturn this outrage. Israel has the ability to solve the problem by relinquishing its claim to the Occupied Territories once and for all; by setting its international borders within the 1967 limits and by dealing fairly with the Palestinain refugees it has taken land from.

This is exactly what Hezbollah, Syria and Iran wants, and Israel is falling into their trap.
A stable Lebanon will provide security to Israel, but it will not suit the agenda of Hezbollah and Syria. Hezbollah will not survive in a prosperous Lebanon it will be forced out. It will loose its support as people become financially stable.
Israel current response to the kidnapping is the exact response that Iran, Syria and Hezbollah want. They want Israel to destroy the economy and infrastructure of Lebanon and any hope of Lebanon being a safe and prosperous country.
Israel is making a mistake and it's only retaliating with emotion not clear thinking. It will only serve Israel interest to have a stable Lebanon.

For Israel, neigther military response nor negotiations will work. Either must be viewed as short term tactics. The real solution lies in:

a) Military robotics as an answer to the Islamacists asymetric warfare.

b) Replacing oil (which could be done militarily by striking the oil fields). If oil prices go high enough other solutions will be found and the economy will lock into those solutions. After that, no funds, no fun for terrorists.

Now imagine those courties are doing that because they claim we stole the land that used to belong to mexico.

Now imagine those countries are doing that because they claim we stole the land that used to belong to mexico.

Israel should attack any and all of its hostile enemies in both Lebanon and Palestinian controlled terretories incessantly until they get it through their thick skulls, that terror will not desuade Israelis from living a peaceful existence as they are entitled to like any other citizens of the world.

imagine pebbles falling on american soil from canada on one hand, and terrorists shelling us with the rubble that used to be there houses from mexico while both governments are too cash strapped, starving and in political turmoil to exert very much of any sort of control over their population, thereby kindling mass support for terrorists. would our government hesitate to drop a few thermonuclear bombs to stop that annoying clinking sound of things hitting the armor plating on our tanks and jets?

when the only thing preventing israel from being the target of a security council resolution is a US veto, they might want to consider that their particular response may be a bit harsh and counterproductive. nobody doubts that the israeli military can beat up on all of its surrounding countries simultaneously, but such an action will only increase support for terrorist organizations such as hamas and hezbollah. a nation cannot compromise its integrity by stooping to the level of terrorists.

I think that as a nation, israel should prove its legitimacy by playing down its history as a jewish state in a sea of muslim states, and become a leader and regional participant, an example for the rest to see and emulate, an anchor for the region. the concept of a state for a specific religion or race/ethnicity is obsolete.

Yes and imagine one of your neighbours robs a bank and the SWAT team - levels your building and shoots your kids to get to your neighbour...

the civilians have no choices and their heroes are defined as those who stand against the jackbooted thugs who find it morally acceptable to decimate their lives...

It is now appropriate at this juncture to note one fatality one civilian. In executing a greater number for these perfidiesmay serve to deter blackmail and the figleaf to hide hegemonist designs! One hostage has already been killed

It is now appropriate at this juncture to note one fatality one civilian. In executing a greater number for these perfidiesmay serve to deter blackmail and the figleaf to hide hegemonist designs! One hostage has already been killed.

It looks like an over-reaction, until you consider that Iranian soldiers are attacking Israel from southern Lebanon.

The massive attack is Israel's message to Iran that they are prepared to go war now.

If Iran doesn't respond correctly, this could end in strikes against Iran, and for all their talk, Iran cannot cross into Israel on land, sea or in the air.

And of course the one country in the world supporting ...Israel......US!!

Time to reread M & W paper....

One can see how foolish is Israel's attempts at negotiating with these savages. In their midguided notions of civility they handed the murderers the appearance of victory.

It is a shame that Israel does not fully unleash the dogs of war and rid the earth of this disease.

I think Israel made a mistake in the 2004 prisoner swap which has led to the current kidnapping of Israeli soldiers. This time Israel should hit Hezbollah positions very hard and bring down Mr. Nasrallah and make him return the two kidnapped soldiers. There is no such thing as a measured response when you are dealing with terrorists.

Imagine the United States occupied by a foreign power for decades, the houses of people who dare fighting back destroyed, the children, women and elderly massacred indiscriminately: I would fight that foreign power with any mean at my disposal. It seems to me that the state of Israel is a terrorist state, and what's more, is using "modern" day fascist tactics against the Palestinians. The complacency with fascism has to stop. Ethnic cleansing, regardless of where it comes from, has to be confronted.

Or perhaps they should just send in the SLA again to massacre civilians (or savages as Rabbi Bruce calls them) on the ground ....

I'm sure they can find some of the old Phalangist leadership to do their dirty work again ......oh wait that's right ..they were mysterioulsy blown up a day or so before sharon's human's rights trial in europe....

hate to say it but olmert (richard cranium) is making sharon look like gandhi at this point....

>> "Imagine the United States occupied by a foreign power for decades...."

You need a History lesson!

The term "Palestine" was invented by Europeans a thousand years ago, when they drove most Jews off the land.

The "Palestinians" are merely arabs who took Jewish lands after this.

In recent history, the Ottomans and arabs sided with the losing side in both World Wars. The Empire collapsed, and the current borders were set by the conquering powers, and later the UN.

The Jewish state was finally RESTORED to them. But arabs, having been given almost all of the former Empire, continue to make a complete pig's breakfast of everything.

Moral: If you lose a war, you lose the land--as happened to Israel a thousand years ago, and the arabs in 1945.

I feel Israel is in a rare position of moral superiority in this case. I'm usually not too forgiving to the Israelis but if there's ever to be peace these militias have to be controlled, if not by their own governments than by Israel.

Jefferson:

Why didn't you mention the missles that rained down on Haifa today, and the hundreds of thousands of Israelis hiding in bomb shelters? Surely this news is as vital as Israeli actions in Lebanon, no?

Is it not ironic that Israeli jails are filled with predominately Palestinians, and that U.S. jails are filled with predominately ________?(fill in the blank)

Hhhhmmmmmm..........Very Interesting......

It's really funny. Americans talk from what they were taught to say. Love Israel and Israel is our friend. Israel got our back. Every once and awhile an Israeli spy is caught in America trying to steal our national secrets. And Arabs who pump more fuel with a phone call from the US are not. They are just enemies who dislike America.
I think what's happenning here is Global confustion and repeated messages of brainwashing on the ethinicity of an Arab. Arabs are people; they bleed; they feel. But when an Arab fights for his land; he is an insurgent. When Arab says I want to go to the beach without being shelled from American Apaches; he is an idiot.
Americans know who really controls America - the corporations. Follow the money.
Iraqi War. Why do Arabs hate us so much? About 100,000 Iraqi died, A mother, A sister, a brother, and a friend. And a little girl bound and violated while hearing her family shot next door. A pregnant woman shot and the baby died too, she just wanted a baby. Sorry, I forget to tell you that fact: Arabs breed like cats. So when you kill their children, and violate their countries borders they just do like idiots and take it.

I think people on this list, should say if he or she had an Arab as friend then decide to speak.

Actually, guys, this post is not giving a rounded picture. Saudi Arabia came out today in official CONDEMNATION of Hezbollah. Arabs are not rallying around Hezbollah so uniformly.

The notion that the Palestinian and Lebanese people bear no responsibility for the actions of their governments is really a big steaming pile, and saying that the Israelis are applying collective punishment is rolling the pile in the sugar of guilt so that the world will swallow it.

Who exactly in Palestine voted for a Hamas government? I seem to remember that those elections were certified as free and fair by the world's observers. Should it come as any surprise that the terrorist organization that they voted in as their government has led them down this particular path? The Palestinian people are not stupid, and they should not now expect the rest of the world to believe that they are. They've sown the wind, and are now reaping the whirlwind.

Same for Lebanon. Knowing that it was Hezbollah that caused the last Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon, the people of that country have still allowed it to operate in their land. None of them can have any credibility on the international stage if they say that they did not see this coming.

Well, if you elect terrorists into government, or elect governments who turn a blind eye to their activities, if not offering covert or overt support for these groups who purposely operate in civillian areas for the PR value of civilian casualties when Israel strikes back at them, then you get what you deserve. Collective punishment is the term that has been used - perhaps the action is an appropriate response to the collective responsibility that the Palestinian and Lebanese people bear.

missiles rain down on haifa and a few thousand israelis are in shelters because their ashke NAZI armies are in the midst of one massive anschluss and are preparing for a second in lebanon...at least they have shelters to hide in unlike the 50-100 civilians who have died at the hands of the ashkeNAZI airforce in the past day or so..

what in the hell is the sense of destabilising lebanon...because they won't fight a civil war on behalf of israel...

its all about regional israeli hegemony and nothing else....

Israel routinely kidnaps people not only from Lebanon and the surrounding countries but from anywhere in the world. Not only it kidnaps people, it also assassinate them with no trial whatsoever.

What we are dealing with is not a clandestine terrorist group but an official elected terrorist state, which was only created recently by the use of terror, collective punishment and mass expulsion of natives.

Israel is the leading violator of UN resolutions in the entire world. Its 5 million Israeli citizens have been ruling by force and terror 3.8 million Palestinians since 1967 against their will. Millions of others have been barred from returning to their homes since 1948.

In 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon and killed at least 19,000 people, and injured 30,000.

While one can expect some kind of response from Israel against Hezbollah's attack on its military, is bombing Beirut's civilian airport justified?

Is putting the entire country under siege justified?

Is bombing bridges and roads justified?

Israel also bombed the main highway that links Lebanon to Syria, the same highway that is used by people who are fleeing for their lives to Syria.

A score of civilians have been killed already including 10 members of the same family, babies and children.

Israel has become a mad violent state. Its people have become hysterical and act as if Lebanon or Hezbollah is Nazi Germany.

This criminal state since 1948 has not stopped killing, destroying, evicting natives, punishing innocent people, bombing refugee camps, and killing people's hope.

Wake up America.

This is the kind of stuff that encouraged and created the environment for 9-11.

This is the kind of stuff that has created tensions between over 200 million Arabs and over 200 million Americans.

Israel, a nation of merely 6 million people (besides its second class Arab minority), is bombing and killing with US made weapons.

All of this is now broadcast-ed live on Arab TV channels all over the Arab world, 24/7.

yes david ...and israels leaders over the past 60 years .... are all peace loving hippies of course....yearning for peace and freedom ...isreali's voted them in so are they inviting the lunacy of hamas and hezbollah on themselves too - or are u just going to stick woith the same old one sided garbage you guys always trot out....

Here is another link to a Lebanese blogger expressing the low support that Hezbollah has as a result of this event.

http://lebop.blogspot.com/

Let's see - why DOES Israel occupy the West Bank and Golan Heights (and previously Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula)? Oh yes, it was attacked 4 times in 25 years by the armed forces of its multiple neighbors who were attempting to elimiate it. These areas were captured in those wars, and were held as buffer zones against further attacks. Peace treaty with Egypt resulted in a return of its territory.

And, the right of displaced Palestinians to return to Israel? Why should Israel allow this? The arabs absolutely and completely deny the Jews displaced by Rome the legitimacy to return to their ancient homelands. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Suggestion:
It might be a little slower, but at least more cost effective, for Israel to bombard the Palestinian children with Rock/Rap/Pop/Hip Hop/Whatever else sells?, "negative violent culture", and just sit back and watch them destroy themselves............

P.S. Intended to be a parody of Western culture......

"This is the kind of stuff that encouraged and created the environment for 9-11."

Karim -

Blaming Israel for 9-11. Such insight and intellect.

Poor Israel can only rely on its military strength to survive amongst the enemies around her.It is sad to learn of innocent civilians suffering and being killed but Lebanon and Palestine should blame their own leaders because their abductions and suicide bombing decisions will rather bring reciprocal response from Israel. Israel has the right to defend herself.
Both sides can however go back to the round table for a diplomatic solution to the crisis. After all the international community does not support the bloodshed.

why is it ok for isreal to abduct Lebanese citizens and hold lebanese citizens in jail, and still occupies part of southern lebanon, and suddenly the world is in uproar when the Lebanese do the same?

The Lebanese never caused any trouble to Isreal until Isreal invaded Lebanon, and still occupies part of Lebanon, and hold Lebanese ctizens in its jails since the occupation.

The bombardement of the airport only serves the economic derailment of the lebanese economy during this upcoming busy tourist season. Isreal is afraid that Lebanon will return to its pre-war economic status being the center of economic and cultural center of the middle east.

The Lebanese blood is as dear as the isreali blood to their respective families.

Enough double standards

Yes, we kill Arabs because we got big guns and we like to use them. And our friends in the Senate and Corporate ladder got our back.

I love Israel.

David:

"Oh yes, it was attacked 4 times in 25 years by the armed forces of its multiple neighbors who were attempting to elimiate it. "

Let me get this straight:

Before 1948, a GANG of mainly Russian-Born Zionists fleeing their homelands attacked a nation of peasants in the Middle East. Not the other way around.

Few Arab nations came to their rescue but ultimately failed. Injustice prevailed, and the gang established a state of their own through terror and mass expulsion of natives.

In 1956, Israel (France and Britain) attacked Egypt.

In 1967, Israel again attacked Egypt, and occupied the entire Egyptian Sinai (biblical prophecy!)

In 1973, Egypt attacks the Israeli occupiers in order to free its Sinai.

That's what happened.

There is no choice left for Israel but military action to root out Iran-backed Hizbollah and Hamas. There is Lebonese government claimin' havin' no information on Hizbollah's activities and on the Palestinian side there is a terrorist group as the government. The root of all this turmoil are the Ayatollahs in Iran who would do everything to wipe Israel off the map of the earth. The international community is quite mindful of this threat but economic ties with this outlaw regime by many European states, Russia and China have made them all indifferent. It is the Iranian people who should pay for the consequences in the long run, i can say they have already been payin' for this regime's policies since the inception of this autocracy. May God forbid but a full-fledge war between Israel and its allies on one side and Iran on the other is looming on the horizon.

Ali Rayan
Qom, Iran

Ali Rayan,

Are you sure you are from Iran not Israel?

Karim:

"All of this is now broadcast-ed live on Arab TV channels all over the Arab world, 24/7."

Maybe you should watch less T.V.. It has obviously hurt your reading comprehension skills AND communication skills.

In case you haven't noticed, the topic here is the current Israeli retaliation in Lebanon.

I've been reading about it all afternoon, through a network of Lebanese and Israeli blogs that are in contact with one another, having civil, empathetic, concerned discourse - as opposed to your usual seething.

I posted some stuff from a Lebanese blogger above.

Perhaps you can make an effort at intelligent commentary regarding the issue at hand. Otherwise, maybe you'd feel more comfortable at say - the Electronic Intifada sight - or in a Hezbollah chatroom.

Jefferson:

Here is an artical about the rockets that have been raining down on northern Israel today.

I'm still curious as to why you didn't mention it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/14/world/middleeast/14israel.html?hp&ex=1152849600&en=c491fc76b30a7a9f&ei=5094&partner=homepage

saxyboy:

"Blaming Israel for 9-11. Such insight and intellect."

I am just telling you what people believe in and I don't think it is difficult to understand.

Israel and the US blames Saudi Arabia's ideology for influencing radicals, why can't images of destruction caused by Israel influence radicals?

Earlier, Al-Jazeera was showing a Lebanese civilian in Beirut all covered with blood.

Israel is bombing Lebanon with US made weapons against civilian targets.

Some people are still wondering about israel's role in 9/11.
Well, take a look at this independent investigation (see link below)..It just might open up your eyes and may be also your minds. Here is the link:

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/WTC_STF.htm

AN INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION OF 9-11 AND THE WAR ON TERRORISM

Also,take a look at the following site and know a thing or tow about how ugly and dangerous this movement is and how subhuman its followers are.

http://www.serendipity.li/zionism.htm

"Zionists are experts at propaganda, disinformation, distorting facts and claims, and outright lying. Any criticism of Zionism or of Israel is labelled as "anti-semitism", where this is interpreted to mean "anti-Jewish". This is a slanderous falsehood. Criticism of Zionism is criticism of a particularly ugly political movement, not criticism of a religion or of the adherents of a religion. One may be critical of Zionism and of Zionists while at the same time being quite tolerant of, or well-disposed toward, or even an adherent of, the Jewish religion (as we see from the websites cited above).

Whether one approves of or dislikes the beliefs and practices of Judaism it remains that Jews have a right to hold those beliefs and maintain those practices. No-one, however, Jewish or non-Jewish, has a right to drive out people from their homes on land where they and their forebears have been living for centuries, to deprive people of their human rights, to cripple their society and to damage the welfare of others by a parasitic subversion of the government of another country for base political purposes, which is what Zionists have done and continue to do."

http://www.serendipity.li/zionism.htm

Latest news from Al-Jazeera sources:

3 people dead and 29 injured caused by the latest bombing of the airport bridge in Southern Beirut.

The airport itself was bombed twice today.

Karim:

I'm sorry, I know many people who don't blame Israel for 9/11.

I'll repeat, that I've posted a link which is a blog that is part of a network of Lebanese and Israelis who are discussing things an a higher level than you ever have on these boards. Maybe you should read the link I posted and open your eyes to different views within the Arab world, that is not just informed by state-run Arab TV stations, and consists of people talking to each other. Or, for that matter, read Jefferson's link to Michael Young. While I don't agree with Young 100%, he is actually pretty fair to Israel on this topic, and obviously understands the need the Jewish state has to defend itself. He is also very critical of Hezbollah.

You might learn something, but I doubt it.

And Karim:

Thanks for posting the news from Al Jazeerah. I'm on the internet; however, so I don't need your updates. I'm keeping abreast of the situation myself.

And one more question.

Saudi Arabia issued an official statement today blaming Hezbollah and Hamas for the current crisis.

I wonder if you care to comment on that.

Ask not what Isreal can do for you
But what can you do for Isreal? Here is this Olmert guy; who is like ticked and came out swinging. I had to duck right. Then some folks from a differnet neighborhood like were missing with him a little and he completely blew his lead off man.

"When elephants fight its the grass that suffers."

I can understand Israels postion but mindless bombing and agressive tactics may not be the solution. Unfortunately its the civilians that suffer. Why do the civilians have to take collective responsibility? What happened to the Israels legendary commando (Sayeret Matkal) operations to rescue hostages.

There's little to be gained by trying to discern who is the "aggressor" and who is the "victim" in this issue. The broader conflict is so old and complicated no one can clearly stake out the higher moral ground.

For Americans, the fundamental questions are these: What are our interests in the Middle East? And, how are those interests served by continuing to spend our political (another UN veto) and financial capital protecting Israel?

The "victims" are clearly the civilians who are caught up in this mindless act of "tit for tat" retaliation.

Saxyboy,

It is from Al-Jazeera TV itself which is usually ahead of its website.

Also please don't confuse Al-Jazeera News TV (www.aljazeera.net) and www.aljazeera.com. The latter is a magazine that is not affiliated with the news TV station.

I did mention in my first post that I would understand an Israeli response to Hezbollah's attack which I believe was a mistake. Why Israel is only concerned with showing "force" to us Arabs?

Israeli response is way too much. Everyone knows the Lebanese people have nothing to do with that attack.

Saudi Arabia's statement is irrelevant. All they do is issue useless empty statements, be it in defense of Palestinians or otherwise.

This is crazy: Israel has to have more focussed military operations or negotiations. Carpet bombing a whole region is not the solutions

Its like burning down someones house to kill a rat.

Last year, Bush and Rice were insisting that Lebanese sovereignty must be respected by Syria.

But when it is Israel, then it is a free range for Israeli forces to bomb whatever they choose.

Karim:

"Why Israel is only concerned with showing "force" to us Arabs?"

I don't think it's true that "Israel is only concerned with showing 'force' to the Arabs."

"Also please don't confuse Al-Jazeera News TV (www.aljazeera.net) and www.aljazeera.com. The latter is a magazine that is not affiliated with the news TV station."

I realize that, and I'm not sure why you're telling me this. As I said, I've been keeping up on this all day from various sources, as I have friends who are Lebanese and Israeli.

As far as your other opinions, I obviously disagree with them.

And Saudi Arabia's statement is not "irrelevant" - given that the kingdom never issues an official statement that implies sympathy for Israel, as it did today.

I believe that the kingdom's statement, along with Youssef Ibrahim's recent editorial printed in the New York Sun, Ynet, and other papers, along with condemnations Arab commentators have issued against Hezbollah - and what I'm reading from Arab blogs - is showing a weariness on behalf of some in the Arab world with Jihadist and Palestinian terror and the Israel issue in general.

You got a admit. Israel's milkshake brought all the world reporters/attention to yard. Olmert can teach you but he has to charge.

looks like the nazionist apologists are out in force again tonight........

no matter what israel does ..its justified..kill kids...blow up civilians, destroy infrastructure etc etc...it's there fault for living in amongst terrorist....

seems that no matter where the zionist bombs land and no matter who is killed the israelis and their pathetic apologists will say that there was a terrorist living there .....or at least someone who was guilty of uttering the words "Palestine" on a Sunday or some such offence....

at least everyone is seeing israels true colors again.....state sanctioned terrorism...

Saxyboy:

You should read few Israeli editorials which called for a response that should be total (YEDIOT AHARONOT for instance).

One never knows when the Saudi government is speaking its mind or when they are reading US messages.

For Youssef Ibrahim, he is a supporter of Bush, so that should be enough. The other day, he was calling on the full invasion of Syria.

Arabs would have condemned Hezbollah if Israel didn't invade. Now, everyone is talking about the Israeli invasion and the destruction associated with it.

Hezbollah attacked a military target, you can't call that terrorism.

If say last week, Israel went into southern Lebanon and caught some Hezbollah fighter, would you think it was outrageous? I don't think you would. It is just that many people in America got used to the idea that Israel is some kind of God in the middle east. So when God attacks, it is ok. When the subjects attack God, it becomes outrageous, which prompts God to retaliate with force.

And by the way, some Israeli group declared a while ago that they kidnapped 2 Palestinian civilians in Jerusalem.

Saxyboy:

You should read few Israeli editorials which called for a response that should be total (YEDIOT AHARONOT for instance).

One never knows when the Saudi government is speaking its mind or when they are reading US messages.

For Youssef Ibrahim, he is a supporter of Bush, so that should be enough. The other day, he was calling on the full invasion of Syria.

Arabs would have condemned Hezbollah if Israel didn't invade. Now, everyone is talking about the Israeli invasion and the destruction associated with it.

Hezbollah attacked a military target, you can't call that terrorism.

If say last week, Israel went into southern Lebanon and caught some Hezbollah fighter, would you think it was outrageous? I don't think you would. It is just that many people in America got used to the idea that Israel is some kind of God in the middle east. So when God attacks, it is ok. When the subjects attack God, it becomes outrageous, which prompts God to retaliate with force.

And by the way, some Israeli group declared a while ago that they kidnapped 2 Palestinian civilians in Jerusalem.

Middle East Peace Plan

Step 1: Have the UN form a new nation of Palestine, formerly known as the state of Florida.

Step 2: Provide any and all necessary UN peace keeping and security forces to secure the coasts, the borders and the interior of the new nation until such time as the new Palestine has sufficient arms and forces to protect their own coasts, borders and the interior.

Step 3: Allow any and all Palestinians to settle in the new nation now known as Palestine. Settlement will involve sufficient housing and property, which may lead to occasional forfeitures by remaining residents of the state formerly known as Florida.

Step 4: Encourage any and all current residents to remain in the new nation of Palestine, formerly known as the state of Florida as long as they are willing to surrender their United States citizenship and apply for Palestinian citizenship. Those who are chosen to stay will be subject to Palestinian law.

Step 5: Those who chose to leave, or have their applications denied will be forced to deport to an undisclosed refugee camp until such time as they can be assimilated into the remainder of the United States.

Are we moving toward a "Greater Isreal" as described on zionist radio talk shows. Are West Bank concession and other peace efforts just a facade to hide a much greater agenda.

hmm i thought democracies didnt attack each other? Israel is the worlds number one terrorist state.

They say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting a different result. Born out of "an eye for an eye" approach in Israel, and a similarly dead-end approach by jihadists who should have learned that as long ago as 1967 the small nation of Israel when attached by many Arab neighbors not only won, but occupied land and dictated how and when things would be done there for decades, that this "insanity" would be seen as such.

There will NEVER be an end to this constant back and forth hatred until one side decides to use a different approach. Say, for example, Israel had gone to the International Community to point out that nothing was done to Hezbollah to provoke them from entering Israeli land to capture 2 soldiers and then wait to see what, if any, response was proferred by the rest of the world? Then, and only then, if no response of any substance were provided would they then get any support for the massive escalation this tragedy is now becoming.

The chances of eliminating jihadists in this manner is astoundingly short-sighted. The creation of replacement jihadists for any taken or killed will perpetuate this hatred again, and again, and again, and ag....

Craig:

"Born out of "an eye for an eye" approach in Israel, and a similarly dead-end approach by jihadists who should have learned that as long ago as 1967 the small nation of Israel when attached by many Arab neighbors not only won..."

In 1967, Israel was not attacked by many Arab neighbors. In 1967, Israel invaded Egypt and bombed its entire airforce on the ground. Israel called it a preemptive strike. After this aggression, Israel took over West Bank, Gaza, Eastern Jerusalem, Golan Heights against the will of its millions of residents.

See the following link for an accurate presentation of the events:

http://www.usatoday.com/graphics/news/gra/gisrael2/flash.htm

Since its controversial birth in 1948, Israel has used terror, force and mass expulsion of natives to advance its colonist policy.

This is no small weak nation. It is a mad, hysterical and highly militarized nation and one the major exporters of weapons in the world.

The Washington Post should stop thinking it's virtuous to be "even-handed" in the battle between terrorists and the countries they attack. Katyusha rockets aimed at cities where they can fall on any civilian and suicide bombers who explode in pizza parlors full of teens are true examples of collective punishment because they affect the lives of every citizen. Israel's actions, by contrast, are directly targeted on terrorists. Taking out the Beruit airport, for example, is to prevent terrorist resupply and to prevent the hostages being shipped to Hezbollah's masters in Iran.

Karim, you are distorting history. In May 1967 Egypt blockaded Israel at the Straits of Tiran. A blockade is an Act of War -- check any reference book on Acts of War and you will see that. Egypt also demanded the withdrawal of UN buffer forces in the Sinai. When the UN troops withdrew, Egypt moved three army divisions and 600 tanks into the Sinai. On May 17 Cairo radio broadcast: "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel." With a blockade, armies massing against Israel's border from three directions, and bellicose was broadcasts from all Arab media (endless quotes are available) Israel was smart indeed to take out the Egyptian air force before the Arab assault could occur. In 1973, by contrast, Israel held back on any pre-emptive strike to prove to the world who was the aggressor and paid too heavy a price. Too many Israelis dies for that restraint.

Michael,

Palestinian suicide bombings are generally understood as acts of despair by an oppressed people who are still enduring a 39 years old military siege, with no rights whatsoever.

Bombing a power generator and cutting water to almost 1 million people by a state that enjoys unmatched military supremacy is collective punishment.

Israeli officials don't even hide their desire for revenge. I can submit statements if you wish.

The Lebanese airport is civilian, and is not used for shipping weapons. This has been stated by the Lebanese government.

Again, as the EU stated, this is a clear violation of international law.

Israel, as it always had, is simply punishing innocent people.

There is no defined army for it to fight, so they attack civilian targets and institutions.

Michael:

Let me start with one important statement:

Israeli Prime Minister Begin:

"In June, 1967, we again had a choice. the Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him" (New York Times, August 21, 1982)

The straits are in international waters, not in Israel territory. Besides, at the time, Israel was not really using the port that goes through the Straits. Israel still had access to international waters from the other side. Egypt's action could have been resolved by the security council.

Egypt did not invade a single inch of Israeli territoriy in 1967.

Israel invaded and bombed the country from land, sea and air.

Israel killed 21,000 Arabs in this aggression, and injured 45,000 people. Israel only lost about 800 people.

It is also in 1967 when Israel attacked the USS liberty and kiled a dozen US servicemen.

Your Zionist spin will not go unchecked.

People will sooner or later realize that Israel, a tiny state of 6 million people, has so much Arab blood on its hands.

If you add 21,000 dead on top of 19,000 people killed in Lebanon by Israel, that is about 40,000 people already. I am not counting the other 2 wars.

Well, reading all this just sicken me.
Israel won't achieve anything at all if it doesn't put boots in lebanon. You want to rip the hezbollah out of lebanon, well do it on the ground, an urban war is the only way ! You can drop as many bombs as you want, but you won't win that war! Right now all Israel is doing is destroying a country, but hezbollah will always be there and they will prevail, end of the story. So show some cojones and drop some boots in hezbollah strongholds in Berouth, ok?

David Browning wrote:
"Imagine part of the USA was occupied by Mexico. No doubt US citizens would refain from any efforts to overturn this outrage."

Yes but how would we get it back? Would we strap bombs to young people and send them to Mexico City restaurants and bus stops? Would we kidnap Mexican soldiers from Mexico and behead them? Would we hide in people's homes and use them as shields while we fired rockets into Mexico's cities, then call blame civilian deaths on Mexico? Face it, both side have lost their morality and have sunk to levels not seen since the middle ages. Hate erodes morality. If God thought Sodom and Gamorrah were evil places, he has not visited the Middle East of today. It is so bad that if you mention peace with Israel it could cost you your life. If you mention withdrawing to the 1967 borders you could get beaten up. I think Israel has one right idea, a wall. Maybe the world should build a wall around all of Israel and Palistine, and occassionally send satallites overhead to see how they are doing, but at least they would leave the rest of the world in peace while they fight their continuous war.

Karim wrote:
"Hezbollah attacked a military target, you can't call that terrorism."

No, it was an act of war. And war is the result. What is sad is that Hezbollah, which is a political party in Lebanon, on its own deliberately plunged the entire country into war. No one in the Lebanese government approved this. Why can a political party take it upon itself to plunge its nation into war? Maybe Hezbollah could care less about the rest of Lebanon?

Emil Cohen

Just as soon as they change the word "arrest" in 'Israel arrests Hamas officials' - it should be 'Israel kidnaps Hamas officials.'

Its elementary. The media already abuses words in favor of your ideology. Don't get so greedy.

Yes, Israel certainly has the right to defend herself. That implies on her soil. As soon as anyone defends himself on someone else's territory, it is called an attack.

What I find very interesting here, is that Israel has admitted, publicly, that they are committing War Crimes, and yet there is no outrage. We are debating history (in itself futile) when we should be condemning a government (I can't beleive I have to write Israel here, but I know there are those who will purposefully misunderstand) whose policy of total reprisal is Illegal, Immoral, and outrageous.

I agree with Sully. I think its pretty obvious Hezbollah is operating with its own agenda in mind, the rest of Lebanon be damned. Its a shame because just recently the WaPo had a nice article about Beruit and how it was coming back since the 80's. Overall I think most of these religious fringe groups are operating with their own agenda in mind and really don't care how their actions affect the rest of the population. They claim to speak for the masses, or know better or all the other things people say when they want to control someone else. These types of actions though will continue until the people decide they've had enough and start refusing these clowns a safe haven. I can't see any scenario where Isreal would be in Lebanon if these guys weren't firing rockets into their cities. Seems like a pretty easy solution if you're Lebanese and want peace. Kick 'em out.

Its like letting drug dealers run your block, nothing good is ever going to come from it. They're bullies and they'll always fade in the face of a unified neighborhood.

well it's terrible to see what's happening... Olmert! you either go all the way or... you stop right now!
You are showing your weakness rather than your strong side...you are not Sharon the butcher. period. Is that what you want to show? that you are better than Sharon? that you have some cojones?
Well you are weak, you fell in an Hezbollah trap...
You are destroying a country for what...2 soldiers ? at the end of all this terrible mess you will achieve nothing, nothing... it's pathetic...
So what! you are going to repeat 1982...wow! well done buddy! Did you achieve anything then...NO!
Just put some boots there, go all the way, occupy Lebanon, then go to war with Syria, and wait for Iran to drop a nuke on Jerusalem, then you can retaliate...wow! I am impressed! fantastic!

Are we going to see a repeat of Sabra and Shatilla. Are the zionist looking for a final solution to the Palestinian Refugee "Problem"?
Deja vu all over again.

A few points.

First, the UN is a joke. Anyone who doesn't realize its a joke should pass me over some of whatever they are imbibing. The only reason the UN ever had a good name is because people mistook its actions for 40 years as the actions that were actually done by NATO. Nothing said by the UN in this day and age means anything anymore.

Second, Israel has previously made unilateral moves to try and create peace in the region. It was less than a year ago that Israel disbanded their settlements in Gaza, and what was the result? Palestinian terrorists fire rockets at Israel from the land those settlements used to be on.

Third, why would the Jews listen to anyone else on how they should defend themselves anymore? Why should they listen to an international community that has spent the past 2000 plus years killing, maiming and deporting them? Israel tried the negotiating table, and much more seriously than Arafat ever did. It didn't work. Maybe it's time to put the fear of God into the terrorist world. History has shown that the most effective way to create change and respect in other countries is to either beat them or spend them into submission. Germany and Japan, who despised the US, Britain and France pre-WW2, reformed their countries in the images of the countries that beat them. The USSR disbanded because the US government spent them into oblivion. Unfortunately, as long as oil is the major source of energy in the world there are plenty of funds that can funnel to terrorist organizations, so Israel cannot spend them into the ground. That only leaves option A.

"Are we moving toward a "Greater Isreal" as described on zionist radio talk shows. Are West Bank concession and other peace efforts just a facade to hide a much greater agenda."

You are on the right track John - think it through - the next stop is Syria soon to be followed by Iran (using other countries forces of course) - it may take another 20 years but the ultimate goal is Russia and then in 50 years we will hear the same old cries of well our ancestors were here 1000 years ago and were expelled to Israel!!!!

Karim:

Your repetitive posting of anti-Israel propaganda is tiresome and silly.

"Your Zionist spin will not go unchecked."

And your nasty seething is childish. So I will debate with you no longer.

Just a note:

Has anyone here actually READ the information that Jefferson linked to? The one with Michael Young is especially illuminating.

Of course, I'm interested in this dialogue, or I wouldn't wouldn't be participating--BUT I think it's wild how passionate and righteous (we) people in the US are about Israel's actions and occasional civilian deaths caused, while in Iraq there are probably 60 civilians killed a day as a result of a war that OUR country decided to pursue and the turmoil that has followed. Why aren't we more passionate about those lives, and the righteousness of our action there? The numbers simply dwarf anything going on in the Palestinian territories, or currently in Lebanon. BTW--I'm not against (or particularly for) the War in Iraq. I think we're there and have a responsibility to see things through. My point/question is---Why are we so passionate about the Lebanon issue and relatively disinterested in day-to-day Iraq civilian deaths? Thoughts?
Have a good day people. And, remember, there is no black and white. It's grey.

Sully wrote:

"No, it was an act of war. And war is the result."

So is occupying 3.8 million Palestinians against their will with military force, restricting their freedom of movement, denying them basic political rights, confiscating their lands, and evicting their people out of their homes, for 39 years, not an act of war?

Please do not insult our intelligence.

Hezbollah attacked few Israeli soldiers, it was wrong alright, but it does call for all of this.

Israel routinely violates Lebanese air space with impunity and has in the past financed with money and weapons a portion of the Lebanese population (SLA) to fight against their own country.

Imagine a foreign nation arming another group in another country to fight their own people.

This is Israel that we are dealing with, not Switzerland.

saxyboy,

Sorry if I offended you but what is wrong with writing "Zionist spin"?

You qualified my postings as "propaganda".

You can't treat me like Israeli treat Palestinians.

If you wish to debate with me, well you should be prepared to do it on equal footing.

Is everyone who sees Israel's points of view or judges their actions more morally high-grounded than Hamas/PLO/Hisbollah points of view a 'Zionist'. I really don't know. It's usually used with a connotation which sounds negative--and it seems like anyone who has a point of view that isn't strictly pro-Palestinian actions and comments is a 'Zionist' and their opinions are known as propaganda. That doesn't help the people with pro-Palestinian/Hamas points of view win over anyone--by dismissing them as radicals. I for one, am not Jewish, not a radical on Israel or any other subject I can think of,
but think it is very silly to hear the way posts in these papers and many Arab reporting avenues are so diversive in their treatment of people who may not have the same opinions. FYI---There's not that many Jews in the USA. There are only a lot of Zionists if you define it by my definition above. . .

Karim:

"You can't treat me like Israeli treat Palestinians."

Wow, you really are thin skinned, aren't you? All I said was I don't wish to debate with you (and I won't any longer), and I find your hysterical postings, where you simply spew anti-Israel propaganda - to be repetitive and childish. You say the same thing every time you are on these boards, Karim. Every time. Think about it.

And for you to use the phrase "equal footing" while you accuse everyone who disagrees with you of being Zionist spinsters, is truly funny.

I have to go now. My friends from The Lobby are meeting me for lunch.

Have the last word about me. Forever.

On us.

I continue to become more alarmed by Israel's war like response to Gaza,Beirout, etc. Certainly these simplistic countries have made some serious mistakes these past few weeks to anger Israel but not to the extend to bomb them, kill innocent people, destroy their livelyhoods, etc. It seems that Israel has crossed the point of no return -the Arab world and many other countries are furious. Israel has lost all credibility. Only the USA is supporting them. We are close to a serious worldwar. There is a lot more at stake than just the price of gas. As I mentioned before, Israel does not belong there and obviously is on the way out. I am an American.

The arab world is furious with Israel. . .? Weird, we're normally so even-handed . . .

It's not just the Arab world that is furious with Israel (and, by association, the United States). The whole world is furious with them, and with us. Winning hearts and minds just got a lot harder. Thanks, #1 ally!

While the hostage situation is important to both sides, the air strikes by Israel and the rocket attacks by Hizbullah take it to another level. Without a settlement, the rocket attacks will force Israel to move into Lebanon to create a buffer zone that would prevent them from reaching Israel. As long as this threat remains, Israel will be forced to occupy part of Southern Lebanon. However, If it remains in Lebanon, it may face an insurgency similar to what the U.S. has faced in Iraq. A sweep through Lebanon destroying some buildings and capturing some weapons will not solve the problem. Hizbullah will fade into the general population or make a temporary retreat. Unless Israel occupies some ground to push back the rockets, Northern Israel will be under threat. If it stays in Lebanon, the IDF will take some light casualties, but, over time, the numbers could become substantial. Any move against Syria would see similar results.

The situation is becoming very dangerous.

Israel is still bombing Southern Beirut using naval warships, and Lebanese forces seem to be firing back at them from Beirut.

The Israeli response has crossed the red line. What have people in Beirut done to them???

This can lead to a real regional war.

The Arab governments must act to save Lebanese from this arrogant Israeli government that knows no limits.

As an Arab I condemn their relative silence. It is shameful.

The oil weapon should be considered.

Tom: Winning hearts and minds just got a lot harder. Thanks, #1 ally!

Times have changed. Look what is happening in Iraq- we (USA) are loosing our shirt. Why - because we have zilch understanding of what we are doing there! Israel after 60 years is falling into the same quagmire. It needs to open up, integrate, etc. If not it's days are numbered - simple reality.

"However, If it remains in Lebanon, it may face an insurgency similar to what the U.S. has faced in Iraq."

I don't think Israel has any qualms about bombing buildings full of civilians at the mere suspicion of a militant hiding there. They probably will not have quite the same problems as the Americans in Iraq since everything within a ten mile radius of an Israeli patrol or post will be rubble.

Karim:

The major Arab governments, excluding Iran (so Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia) want Hezbollah and other radical Islamic groups gone nearly as much as the Israelis do. Notice how Saudi Arabia will often stand up and beat their chests and yell and scream whenever anything happens in Gaza or the West Bank, but they never actually do anything? And do you notice how Israel would VERY gladly let Egypt take Gaza and Jordan take the West Bank, but neither of those countries have any desire to do so? It's because they view the extremist terrorist groups as more of a threat than they view Israel.

To everyone:
When people talk about anti-semitism in the light of anti-Israel sentiment, they are not talking about the blatant anti-semitism and racism of 50 years ago. Instead it is sort of the lingering, festering, low key acceptable in the modern day racism. It's the kind of racism that makes many peoples hearts beat a little faster when a few African American youths are walking behind them for a couple of blocks or makes someone say "He Jewed me" when they got ripped off. The problem is, when times get rough, this type of prejudice boils over from (relatively) harmless things like the above to true, actual hatred. The US hasn't seen a truly "rough" time, by world standards, in a long time, if at all.

Does the jewish state reaction belong to the civilized world we live in today. Two soldiers captured by Hezbullah and one solidier in Palestine.handreds of civlians killed including in some instance all families members,infrastructures,aiports and schools are destroyed.Now if the jewish state got back the three soldiers who will bring the deads to thier families.
I do not see prospect of peace in midle east between 300million arabs and 4-5 million jews. Israel is investing in hater unfortunately with full USA military ,political and financial support. What does USA veto in security counsel yesterday means other than green light to israel to kill more arabs.USA has no longer a great leaders ;those who built it in the past to be what it is now ,but unfortunately fell lately in the hand of theolog./political leaders who believe destruction of middle east....God help poor people who are caught in the midlle of Jewish/US goverment and Hezbullah attacks

People are quick to say "Lebanese civilians, who have absolutely no control over the events that are unfolding are not to blame." What few people realize is that in exercising their freedom to vote, they elected 20% of their parliament from Hezbollah. Three of their ministers are also from Hezbollah. They new exactly what they were doing and are now suffering the same consequences as the Palestinian people, who also under free elections, voluntarily elected a known terrorist organization as their government. Spare me the innocent civilian defense. When your elected officials operate under the publicly known doctrine of wiping out another sovereign country (Israel) from the face of the earth, what do you really expect?

Good afternoon,

I am Lebanese and have lived in North America for 20 years now.

I am pained to see my country destabilized and harmed once more by the actions of a violent faction I do not at all support (Hezbollah) and by the brutal, undescerning reaction of Israel. I am worried for family members, especially my young sister who is 6 months pregnant and lives in Beirut.

Hezbollah's actions are inexcusable and Israel absolutely needs to protect its citizens. However that should not give the Israeli army carte blanche to ravage Lebanon like there was no tomorrow. There is a difference between protection and blatant aggression.

By bombing the airport, cell towers, a power plant, bridges and roads, the Israeli army perhaps limits Hezbollah's activities - a little. What is certain, is that it is crippling a small country working hard to get back on its feet after a 16 year war.

It is destabilizing and terrorising civilians who count on this infrastructure to conduct their daily business. Men and women like my brother-in-law trying to solidify his small consulting business to feed his young family or my childhood friends who invested all they had in a beach resort now deserted by fleeing tourists.

I am disappointed at President Bush's dismissive reaction to the graveness of the situation: "Israel has to be able to defend itself". Yes, but what constitutes a fair and appropriate defense and what does not? Is it moral to destroy a country and its economy to punish an action carried out by a few? Do you treat a cancer by maiming the body here and there?

Hour by hour, as I read the news, and as I see familiar roads and sites go up in flames, my indignation and anxiety rise.

I am sure that many Israelis feel that their goverment has taken things too far. They know the horrors of war only too well, and how civilians always end up being sacrificial lambs.

I condemn Hezbollah and resent their actions, but it is towards Israel that I turn expectantly, hoping that it will choose fairly and with as much care as possible how it will retaliate.

Hezbollah is better equipped than the Lebanese army and cannot be reigned in by Lebanon alone. In fact, if the Lebanese army tried to reign them in, we would certainly be faced with a very bloody civil war between Shiites, Christians and Sunites (not to mention the rest)

I think the Israeli representative said it best in his encounter with the Palestinan delegate in the UN hallway: "Palestinians must be in love with the Israeli occupation." Over the past 2 years all Israel has talked about is pulling back from occupied territories. Not only has it talked, but it also follwed through with its pullback from Gaza last year. Ever since, the Palestinian terrorist groups have done everything in their power to get the Israelis back into town -- rocket attacks, kidnappings, and attacks on the Gaza-Israel border. And now, somehow, they are shocked when the Israeli forces re-enter Gaza... Is anyone else out there surprised?

I am American and don't really have a preference towards the Lebanese, Palestinians, or Israelis. But it seems to me that this whole thing could have been avoided if no one was ever kidnapped. Even the Arab leaders like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Jordan have clearly come out and said that Hezbula was wrong.

I feel bad for the people of Lebanon. Some are clearly against Hezbula because they know that by supporting, they nightmares would come true as they are happening today. But if Lebanon can't fight off Hezbula alone, then why can't they ask for help? I am sure that the US, UN, and EU would all be more than happy to get them out of the region. Everybody would win. Israel would not have an excuse to go into Lebanon anymore. Lebanon would get ready of the Hezbula, and the region would become so much more stable. Who know, maybe Lebanon would become the third neighbor to sign a peace agreement with Israel.

If Lebanon is really serious about getiing Hezbula out, and they know they can't do it alone, there is no shame in asking for the rest of the world for help -- especially for a cause as noble as rooting out a terrorist group from your backyard.

In the mean time, I hope and pray for the Lebanese people that are against the terrorists, and that only want their country back

Lisa:

Thanks for that sincere post. Best wishes to your family and loved ones over there.

Here is a link to a blog that is plugged into a network of Israeli and Lebanese bloggers who are communicating with each other up to the minute.

http://ontheface.blogware.com/

Rubble can provide a good defensive position in conventional warfare. But, with an insurgency, They can plan attacks against isolated positions or individuals. They do not need to take or hold positions. They kill and disappear.

Jennifer,

it is unfortunately more complicated than it seems. Although a lot of people in Lebanon do not support Hezbollah, there is also a good portion of the population that does.

If the US or another country came in to "oust" Hezbollah from the country, it would start a civil war between those that support Hezbollah and those that don't.

It is sometimes very difficult for Americans to understand the complexities of Middle Eastern politics, and they offer simple solutions that might work here, but that could not work over there.

Here's the main reason why: In the US, there is one and only one army and one goverment controlling the country. In the Middle East, there are often different factions or militias (like armed mafias or mobs) that co-exist with the "official" army. And when there is a disruption in the country, all these militias take to the streets and start killing whomever they don't agree with. This causes a lot of stability and civil wars, which is why dictatorships sometimes work better in certain countries. They bring harm, but they also bring stability.

Thank you for your wishes, and I hope that one day we will attain peace or relative peace there.

Lisa:

Is there a specific region in Lebanon where Hezbollah fighters are concentrated, or are they in pockets througout the country?

Thanks Saxyboy, I am going to check it out now.

They are concentrated in the south (which is the border with Israel), and in the suburbs of southern Beirut. But they don't operate from distinct bases, they are very much interspersed with civilians.

Lebanon is very small (4/5 of the size of Connecticut) and it is densly populated, especially along the coast. The total population is about 3.5 million.

Beirut alone has 2 million people and it is built right on the Mediterranean coast. So if you strike there, it is virtually impossible not to cause collateral damage.

I see there is a consenus on Isreal's action. We need immediate way of organizing and marching on Washington. every moral fiber in me saying that this is wrong. Lebanon is going to be wronged by a hateful Isreali regime.

Israel wants to create a democracy in Lebanon as America wanted to create democracy in Iraq. Did you hear what Isreali Ambassador to the UN said.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/mideast_conflict

Isreal is going to look like crap after this. And the U.S. is looking more like a controled a proxy.

From SG:

"People are quick to say "Lebanese civilians, who have absolutely no control over the events that are unfolding are not to blame." What few people realize is that in exercising their freedom to vote, they elected 20% of their parliament from Hezbollah. Three of their ministers are also from Hezbollah. They new exactly what they were doing and are now suffering the same consequences as the Palestinian people, who also under free elections, voluntarily elected a known terrorist organization as their government. Spare me the innocent civilian defense. When your elected officials operate under the publicly known doctrine of wiping out another sovereign country (Israel) from the face of the earth, what do you really expect?"

So what's your suggestion kill them all? What about those under 18 who did not vote or those who did not vote for HEzbollah or can't stand them - are they just unfortunate to be in the way of the israeli defence (thats a joke) force...

There are none so dumb as those who won't think....

NIE,

Thank you for sharing your views.

The Saudi government doesn't do anything because it is not a true representation of the Saudi people, and neither is the Egyptian government. Saudi Arabia has spent over 200 billion dollars on US made weapons.

The Saudi officials are trying to appear "reasonable" for the sake of the Bush administration after its image was tarnished because of 9-11. No high ranking Saudi official ever condemned the US invasion of Iraq directly.

The Egyptian officials, well, they don't want to lose the few billion dollars of US aid.

Notice that the 2 nations that have been attacked by Israel with the fully support of the US government have freely elected governments.

You claimed that Israel would gladly leave Gaza and the WB, that is not true.

They are still expanding settlements in the WB.

All this arguing about who did what to whom is not productive. Is like debating that a house is on fire so what flame caused the other flame. Go back to 1948 and figure out who started the fire and whose house was (is) it - Israel? Don't think so.

Israel (Jews in the region). Think so.

"The Saudi government doesn't do anything because it is not a true representation of the Saudi people, and neither is the Egyptian government."

And neither is any other Arab government. Goes without saying.

"Notice that the 2 nations that have been attacked by Israel with the fully support of the US government have freely elected governments."

Unfortunately those freely elected governments do not govern their countries. The terror organizations do.

"You claimed that Israel would gladly leave Gaza and the WB, that is not true."

News update: It has already left Gaza a year ago. Would have left the WB too, but thanks to the efforts of the terror organizations and their puppet masters in Iran and Syria, that seems less and less likely.

Posted by: Arnie | July 13, 2006 10:24 PM

Is it not ironic that Israeli jails are filled with predominately Palestinians, and that U.S. jails are filled with predominately ________?

..er... BLACKS??

Three Israeli soldiers are abducted. Israel responds by killing somet 60 innocent civilians, and counting. More of the same murderous, outlaw, totally disproportionate behaviour by Israel. And people wonder why Israel is so hated in the Middle East! It's as though they set out to do everything in their power to be despised by their neighbors.

"I see there is a consenus on Isreal's action."

You need to have your eyesight checked in a hurry.

"We need immediate way of organizing and marching on Washington. every moral fiber in me saying that this is wrong. Lebanon is going to be wronged by a hateful Isreali regime."

Organizing marches in Washington may make you feel better about yourself but it will accomplish nothing. There is one man who can bring the fighting to a halt in an instant, and it's the same man who started it. He does not live in Washington or in Jerusalem but in Beirut, and his name is Hassan Nasrallah. He is the one who should be forced to stop this, and only the Arabs can accomplish that.

"Israel wants to create a democracy in Lebanon as America wanted to create democracy in Iraq."

Don't be ridiculous. Israel could not care less about the regime in Lebanon, as long as the border is quiet.

It's high time that the US finally stopped all funding of the occupation and settlements. We need to cut off all funding and diplomatic support until they remove every settler from the West Bank and east Jerusalem and quit the occupation completely. Only after that could the US be in a postition to assist Israel in the region without being completly hypocritical with regard to the standards that we set for other countries in the region.

The fact that the US tolerates the settlements for even one minute brings shame and disrepute upon us.

I think it's fair to say that the settler movement and the occupation that supports it are one of the Key factors that led to 9/11, although the media and government in the US absolutely never make even a hint about this connection.

Now, here we are again, about to pay (at the pumps, in the stock market, and at the cost of the further inflammation of the war on terror simply because Isreal will not agree to simply unconditionally quit lands that they stole in the first place and which the entire world (even we officailly condemn the settlements) condemns.

I mean, Look at the inequity here. Before the first kidnapping, Israel had indisciminantly bombed a beach party, slaugtering innocent men women and children. They then bombed other areas in gaza also killing numerous innocent men women and children in an effort to assasinate hamas military leaders. The death toll of innocent Palestinian people in the 2 weeks before this event was 15 or 20. Converesly, the rockets that were being fired into israel have a mortality rate of about 1 person per year if they are fired consistently. They are wildly innacurate.

Currently, there are 3 Israeli hostages (all miltary people).

There are about 9000 Palestinian prisoners.

The total mortality rate due to the conflict for palestinains is about 3 to every israeli with a very large number of palestinian children included in those figures.

Currently, the palestinians illegally hold and occupy 0% of Israeli lands.

Israel holds about %90 of all Palestinian lands and is working hard to populate that land with Israelis to ensure that the Palestinians will never get it back.

To suggest that the situation is unfair is a gross understatement. That's why every one else in the entire world condemns the situation other than Israel and the US.

Finally, as a Republican,It pains me to see Bush paralyzed about the entire situation, when the only thing that empowers any of the people who are perpetrating these kidnappings are the ongoing presence of the settlements and the occupation. Settlements and an occupation That the US is literally paying for.

In the mean time, every Israeli bomb that falls, every child that is killed, every human right that is trampled upon is seen as being paid for and backed by the US government by Arabs and Muslims around the World. This is really going to win hearts and minds in this trillion dollars plus (and still counting) war on terror that we are fighting.

I just wish someone in Congress or the White House would grow a spine and put an end to this Fiasco once and for all.

J

Posted by: Arnie | July 13, 2006 10:24 PM

Is it not ironic that Israeli jails are filled with predominately Palestinians, and that U.S. jails are filled with predominately ________?

..er... BLACKS??

Interesting answer Sue.....I wonder what other participants of this blog would answer? Do you see any parallel social circumstances between Palestinians and Blacks, or any other oppressed people?

"Converesly, the rockets that were being fired into israel have a mortality rate of about 1 person per year if they are fired consistently. They are wildly innacurate."

Last week alone The Palestinians launched 800 of those rockets into Israel. Since you seem to think they can cause no damage or loss of life, you would not mind living in the area covered by those rockets, am I correct?

Michael O.,

That's exactly my point. 800 rockets. How many casualties? ( no deaths , I believe) The Israeli rockets have killed 15 to 20 innocents BEFORE the kidnappings, and 90 or more in the Gaza alone after.

So let me ask you a question. If the Israelis came here and said that your house and the land it was built on, in fact your whole city belonged to them, would you just sit and take it? Would you allow your children to be born into occupation and statelessness and not do anything about it?

I think not.

As far as I'm concerned Nasrallah can go screw himself. He desereves what he gets. But the Palestinians deserve to be freed. All of them. And only the US can do it.

Has it not occured to you that by allowing the Occupation and Settelments to linger, we play right into the hands of Islamic Extremists who rely on that situation for recruitment and sympathy?

J

I subscribe to LWP's notion that the tit-for-tat goes back so far it's pointless trying to decide who did what first.
But what is notable to me is that America insisted democracy needed to be planted in the Middle East because "democracies don't make war on each other".

Well, there are now two truly elected Arab governments, Palestine and Lebanon, and both are being invaded by another democracy, Israel.

And the very same people who swallowed the US Govt's "democratisation" crap hook, line, and sinker, are now saying that Lebanese civilians are legitimate targets BECAUSE they had elections. So much for the blessings of democracy in the Middle East.

So tell me, David and others touting this line...Israel elected as PM Menachem Begin, who directed the terroristic blowing-up of the King David Hotel, which killed many innocent Jews as well as Britons. Begin also ordered the despicable assassination of Count Bernadotte, a man who had saved thousands of Jews from Himmler's clutches.

Israel also elected as PM Ariel Sharon, who personally led a death squad in the terroristic massacres of at least two villages (Qibya and Bureij). Sharon's massacre at Qibya was condemned by the National Jewish Post in the US as "another Lidice".

Israelis elected these terrorists and regard them as fathers of their nation. I guess by your logic that makes Israeli civilians legitimate targets.

"That's exactly my point. 800 rockets. How many casualties? ( no deaths , I believe) The Israeli rockets have killed 15 to 20 innocents BEFORE the kidnappings, and 90 or more in the Gaza alone after."

You did not answer my question. Would you live within range of those rockets?

Since I don't believe I'll get a straight answer, let me suggest another, simpler approach: Instead of being mired in meaningless calculations of how many innocents are killed per rocket on each side, try to calculate how many would be killed on both sides if the Palestinians stopped launching rockets into Israeli towns. The answer is: 0.

"So let me ask you a question. If the Israelis came here and said that your house and the land it was built on, in fact your whole city belonged to them, would you just sit and take it? Would you allow your children to be born into occupation and statelessness and not do anything about it?"

First, this is not what happened. Second, what actually did happen is totally irrelevant to the topic of this discussion.

"As far as I'm concerned Nasrallah can go screw himself. He desereves what he gets."

But so far no one is giving him what he deserves, so this task falls to Israelis by default. So what exactly is your complaint?

"But the Palestinians deserve to be freed. All of them."

Why? The Palestinians in Israeli jails are there because they have committed acts of terror against Israel. The terror organizations announce daily their intentions to continue attacking Israel until it is eradicated. If Israel frees the prisoners they are sure to rejoin their organizations and resume their attacks. What country in its right mind would free them?

"And only the US can do it."

It cannot and it shouldn't, or it will be contributing to the perpetuation of terror. Only the Palestinians can do it. If there is a comprehensive peace agreement and the terror organizations lay down their arms, then of course the prisoners should be released. So far we are nowhere near this scenario.

"Has it not occured to you that by allowing the Occupation and Settelments to linger, we play right into the hands of Islamic Extremists who rely on that situation for recruitment and sympathy?"

Again, what does it have to do with what we are discussing here? Did Nasrallah say anything about occupation and settlements? Do you understand what this man is doing and what he is aiming for?

O.D.,

I agree with your main point, although I disagree with your first assertion, that the "tit for Tat" somehow is too complicated to determise who is at fault.

The presence of the settlements is one sin that is unmatched by the Palestinians. It preceded and has persisted during the vast majority of the violence between the two sides. 40 plus years of Occupation. It's almost too horrible to imagine much less live through.

It is unacceptable situation for any nation.

We here in America started an insurgency against the English over taxes. Imagine what we would do if we were forcibly occupied by another nation who then tried to build settlements on our territory.

I agree with the notion that arguing endlessly over tit for tat is pointless, but the settlements are certainly the cause of almost all of the violence for the last 40 years. Even the Israelis must agree in that they are ready to give up the notion of a greater Israel due to 40 years of pointless violence that has resulted in nothing but the economic and moral crippling of their otherwise vibrant society.

We just need to help them along by cutting off the money until they finally fully comply with the demands of the rest of the world.

It's like the tough love you would show to an alcoholic relation whose life has been destroyed by years of delusional and dysfunctional thinking brought about by excessive drinking. Cut off the money, and they will no longer be able to afford to persist in their dysfunctional behavior and may actually start to seek real help and join the rest of society again.

I guess such actions usually take place when the growing