The Qana Conspiracy Theory

As Hezbollah wins support throughout the Middle East in the aftermath of the Israeli airstrike that killed at least 57 Lebanese civilians over the weekend, an alternative view of the attack is emerging in blogs -- that the incident was actually staged by Hezbollah.

This "story" is a useful companion to last week's post about watching the war as it unfolds on the Web. The Qana conspiracy theory not only underscores how the Internet can misinform (an old story), it also reveals a popular demand for online content that attempts to explain away news reports that Israel (and by proxy, its closest ally and arms supplier, the United States) was responsible for the deaths of dozens of women and children in a Hezbollah stronghold.

At a time when American and Israeli public opinion of the war diverge radically from the world opinion elsewhere, the emergence of a right-wing equivalent of the Sept. 11 conspiracy theories is worth noting.

The Qana "conspiracy theory" poses this question: If Israeli shells landed near the building that collapsed between midnight and 1 a.m., why didn't reports of the collapse emerge until about 8 a.m.? One site pushing this question on Tuesday was the Israeli Insider, published by a Tel Aviv company that bills the site as a "an independent, nonpartisan online publication that aims to provide an 'inside perspective' on the latest news, analysis and commentary from and about Israel."

Israeli Insider's Ruben Korvet contends that the Qana story has the hallmark of a Hollywood ending and called for the "revelation of the improbable and inconvenient truth." Citing news images of the event, Korvet said the bodies of 57 civilians "looked like they had been dead for days" and suggested that Hezbollah operatives planted them there.

On another site, British bloggers asserted that a "Hezbollah official" took control of the scene to orchestrate false photo opportunities with the dead bodies. Confederate Yankee, a onetime guest blogger for washingtonpost.com, sees "evidence of a most revolting Hezbollah fraud."

Confronted with photographs of dead children, Israeli Insider's Korvet insisted they must be something else: "The victims were non-residents who chose to shelter in the building that night," he writes. "They were 'too poor' to leave the down, one resident told CNN's [Jon] Wedeman. Who were these people?"

That question has been definitively answered in the mainstream press. Almost all of the victims belonged to two extended families, the Hashems and the Shalhoubs, who lived in the area, according to the independent accounts of The Washington Post's Anthony Shadid and the Daily Star's Nicholas Blanford.

Nevertheless, the Qana conspiracy theory is apparently being taken seriously in the blogosphere and in Israel. The American Thinker, a popular conservative site, says unnamed major media photographers were "willing" tools of Hezbollah. The EU Referendum blog claims its stories on the subject attracted 115,000 page views in a day, more than 50 times the average. YNet News, Web site of the country's largest newspaper, reported the story under the headline: "Blogs: Hizbullah 'Milked' the attacks."

The follow-up questions for the bloggers touting the alternative theory are obvious:

Who killed the Hashems and Shalhoubs, if it wasn't an Israel bomb? Korvet and the other bloggers don't offer any theories.

How did Hezbollah truck in bodies to the Qana site without the pervasive Israeli aerial surveillance catching it on film? Israel has released footage of what it says are Hezbollah fighters firing rockets from the area. Presumably, the Israeli Foreign Ministry is not covering up the story.

As for EU Referendum's claim that a Lebanese rescue worker seen in many photos from Qana was a "Hezbollah official," I e-mailed co-author of the site, Richard North, to ask for his evidence.

"All I have to go on is gut instinct," North replied.

I appreciate his candor. It confirms that he has no evidence to support the central claim of his blog posts.

North says he is just trying to "raise questions," which is certainly a legitimate goal. My question is: What is it about the photos from Qana that made Israel's supporters prefer fantasy to fact?

By Jefferson Morley |  August 2, 2006; 10:30 AM ET  | Category:  Mideast
Previous: The Qana Tipping Point |

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» WaPo Cries Conspiracy" from "Gulf Coast Pundit
Jefferson Morely at the Washington Post starts an op-ed piece by crowing about Hezbollah’s growing support, a bit of wishful thinking on his part perhaps, but the meat of his article is a supposed conspiracy theory being brewed in the deep dark b... read more »

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» Militarily Retarded" from "Free Will
Militarily RetardedI was going to write a whole piece about Qana, but the media has pretty well made that needless on my part. In short, I don't think there's enough evidence for us to say whether or not the specific building was being used a... read more »

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» Haveil havalim daily edition 08/01/2006" from "Soccer Dad
A quick note for new readers. A little more than a year and a half ago I started the Jewish/Israeli blogging carnival called Haveil Havalim. It is hosted by alternating hosts most Sundays. Last week I decided to use the name for a daily link roundup (m... read more »

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No surprises here....the Israeli/Zionist propoganda machine takes very little time to get its wheels turning...

First of all -

a) we're sorry it was an accident

b) we only did it because there was a rocket launcher - missile - terrorist - beside/behind/on top of the building - here's a video to prove it

c) We thought there were no civilians there cos we scared them all away with our humane leaflets and voice mail message.

d) uh ..actually we did not do anything...it was a staged event by hezbollah,hamas, boogey man, michael jackson....anyone really it does not matter as long as we can create some doubt.


It's the same tactic Goebels used - the greater lie theory - this tired old crap comes out after virtually every israeli massacre & murder...

Pathetic!!

Posted by: Angus | August 2, 2006 11:27 AM

I posted this in response to the last forum, although it seems even more appropriate for this disscusion. The quotations from israeli official that Buchanan prefaces his piece with shed greater light on the reasoning behind the whole offensive in Lebanon and especially the Qana Massacre.
I had not heard these quotes anywhere else and what they seem to imply is quite monsterous.

How can the government responsible for saying things like this deny qana with a straight face? I suppose the same way that they have denied responsibility for just about every other war crime they have committed.


_______________________________________

This included some Israeli military and governmental quotes that appear to give greater perspective to the high rate of civilian causulties. Not a big fan of Buchanan, but he is right on regarding our Policies concerning Israel.


From the Boston Herald:

Israel's overkill enabled by immoral U.S. policy
By Patrick J. Buchanan/ Syndicated Columnist
Wednesday, August 2, 2006

"Everyone in southern Lebanon is a terrorist and is connected to Hezbollah," roared Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon on July 27.

"Every village from which a Katyusha is fired must be destroyed," bellowed an Israeli general in the Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth.

The paper then summarized what the justice minister and general were saying: "In other words, a village from which rockets are fired at Israel will simply be destroyed by fire." That was Thursday.

Sunday, in Qana, 57 of Haim Ramon's "terrorists," 37 of them children, were massacred with precision-guided bombs. Apparently, Katyushas had been fired from Qana, near the destroyed building.

"One who goes to sleep with rockets shouldn't be surprised if he doesn't wake up in the morning," said Israel's ambassador to the United Nations, Dan Gillerman.

Today, we hear unctuous statements about how Israel takes pains to avoid civilian casualties, drops leaflets to warn civilians to flee target areas and conforms to all the rules of civilized warfare.

But Israel's words and deeds contradict her propaganda.

Gillerman, at a pro-Israel rally in New York, thundered, "To those countries who claim that we are using disproportionate force, I have only this to say: You're damn right we are."

Gillerman spoke the truth. No sooner had Hezbollah taken the two Israeli soldiers hostage than Israel unleashed an air war - on Lebanon. It was the moral equivalent of a municipal police ravaging an African-American community because Black Panthers had killed cops.

If Israel is not in violation of the principle of proportionality, by which Christians are to judge the conduct of a just war, what can that term mean? There are 600 civilian dead in Lebanon, 19 in Israel, a ratio of 30-1.

Yet, whatever one thinks of the morality of what Israel is doing, the stupidity is paralyzing. Now, 87 percent of Lebanese back Hezbollah, and the entire Arab and Islamic world is rallying behind Hassan Nasrallah.

And how does one defend our behavior?

When Gillerman was exulting in the disproportionality of Israel's attack on Lebanon, U.S. Sen. Hillary Clinton was smiling smugly beside him. When the U.N. Security Council tabled a resolution condemning Hezbollah's igniting of the war, but also the excesses of Israel's reprisals, U.S. Ambassador John Bolton vetoed it. When a few congressmen sought to moderate a pro-Israeli resolution by adding words urging "all sides to protect innocent life and infrastructure," GOP leader John Boehner ordered the words taken down.

America shares full moral and political responsibility for the massacre at Qana. Our Israeli friends appear to be playing us for fools."


J

Posted by: J | August 2, 2006 11:42 AM

I have talked to a few people (by cellphone) in the last 2 days. they say hezbollah is threatening anyone who provides information to reporters that makes hezbollah look bad.

you must realize, that it si like iraq. everyone in world thought iraquis liked saddam. when it was over, you can see they did not. same with hezbollah. many people fear to talk bad about them. once they are disarmed, people will give you information about hezbollah that will be shocking.

Posted by: Zaid Abdul Aziz | August 2, 2006 11:55 AM

Couldn't Qana's carnage have been avoided? Hezbollah made pawns out of Lebanese children
By Alan Dershowitz
Wednesday, August 2, 2006

Sunday was a day of great triumph for Hezbollah. Its tactics had worked.
By launching rockets at Israeli civilians within yards of a building filled with refugees, Hezbollah had induced Israel to make a terrible mistake. Its defensive rocket had hit the civilian building.
That was Hezbollah's plan all along. As Israelis wept over the deaths of the Lebanese children, Hezbollah leaders celebrated its propaganda victory.
Yes, Hezbollah was happy that an Israeli rocket had killed Lebanese children. The children were now in paradise, martyrs to Hezbollah's cause. Israel was being condemned worldwide for "killing" children - "massacre" was the most common word used in the Arab media. Israel apologized, but that was not enough to put out the flames of anger or to quiet the shrill calls for revenge.
Israel produced evidence proving that it was largely Hezbollah's fault.
Hezbollah was using Lebanese children as human shields - surely a war crime. Hezbollah was preventing civilians - who had been repeatedly warned by Israel to leave the battle zone - from moving out of harm's way.
Hezbollah sympathizers were shown on TV defiantly tearing up the Israeli leaflets. Hezbollah had refused to build bomb shelters for ordinary civilians - only for its own leaders.
Hezbollah knew (and Israel didn't) that children were in the so-called safe house. That is why it used the safe house as a shield behind which to fire rockets at Israel.
Hezbollah used its rocket launchers as "bait" to induce Israel to fire at them in order to increase the chances that Israel's rocket would misfire and hit the "safe house."
It was a perfect plan. Hezbollah leaders knew they could count on the international community to finish their dirty work by condemning Israel rather than Hezbollah for the deaths caused deliberately by Hezbollah. Israel has, of course, rightly apologized for the deaths. Hezbollah never apologizes for deliberately causing civilian deaths, except when the deaths are of Arab children, as was the case in Nazareth.
When it comes to Israel, a lot of usually smart people stop thinking with their heads and start thinking with their guts. Most smart people know that when an armed criminal takes a hostage and fires from behind him, it is the criminal, not the policeman, who is guilty of murder if the policeman, in a reasonable effort to stop the criminal from firing, accidentally kills the hostage.
The same should be true during wartime. But you wouldn't know it if you listened only to the singular condemnations of Israel by so many in the international community.
But not all.
Just days before this Hezbollah-orchestrated tragedy, Jan Egeland, the U.N. undersecretary general for Humanitarian Affairs, had essentially predicted it. He chided Hezbollah for being "a bunch of cowards hiding behind women and children." He said that he "cannot understand how someone could be proud that there were more women and children hurt than armed militants." And he called for the Hezbollah to stop mixing with the civilian population.
Instead, Hezbollah fired its Katyusha from behind the apartment in Qana, knowing that it was filled with civilians.
The president of Lebanon praised Hezbollah. For what? For using its children as shields? When was the last time a leader thanked the criminal for taking a hostage who was then killed in the shootout? The Arab world, the Islamic world and the rest of the Israel haters have now rallied behind Hezbollah. Hatred of Israel has even managed to heal the millennium long divisions between Shias and Sunnis.
Every day more Arabs and Muslims kill other Arabs and Muslims in the Sudan, Iraq, Afghanistan and other parts of the world than the Israelis have killed in three weeks of combat. But the international community - and the Arab world - turns a blind eye. Many Arab governments actually support the genocidal Sudanese government. Even "peaceful" nations, such as Egypt and Jordan, have killed more Muslim and Arab dissidents, extremists and terrorists than Israel has - and without much protest.
The real victory for Hezbollah is that it has caused grief and dissent in Israel over the death of the children. This will cause Israel to show more "restraint," as it has already done by declaring a 48-hour cessation of air attacks. This will give the terrorists a freer hand at launching rockets. The result will be more Israeli civilian casualties.
The sad truth is that the Israelis care more about the lives of innocent Lebanese children than Hezbollah does. As Golda Meir once said about her Arab enemies: "We can perhaps forgive them for killing our children, but we can never forgive them for making us kill their children." How prescient.

Posted by: Another View | August 2, 2006 11:55 AM

*tear rolls down cheek*

Posted by: Josh | August 2, 2006 11:58 AM

from the dershowitz piece...

"As Israelis wept over the deaths of the Lebanese children"


What a ludicrous statement - the only pictures of emotion I have seen from Israelis is little girls writing messages on bombs being sent to kill their neighbours.....

dershowitz is a disgrace as a human being, a professor at Harvard,and as an American ....

Posted by: Angus | August 2, 2006 12:03 PM

It was very clear from the beginning that Israel wants to annex South Lebanon, either to expand it borders or to build the so called buffer zone. I guess they did not like the idea of leaving in 2000.

Their expansionist designs can also be seen in Palestine. When Hamas, the elected government, was ready to talk and negotiated peace; a very well staged distraction about a solider missing made sure that there was not room for peace talks.

If you have a little time please watch this documentary:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696

Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land - Google Video

Posted by: Y | August 2, 2006 12:11 PM

I thought the "arab style peace lovers" and the "Iranian style justice vowers" are groupped arround the very "legal" Radio Islam site. But I see these kind of small cowered hater parazits are overall on the net. I want just to tell you small dirty people. Israel and his people will never loose 6 milion again. Or if we have to disappear we will never again do it alone. This can be painful for you ... I understand. A Jew with an arm defending himself is not exactly the image you got when you were even smaller then now. One more questions to you small dirty hitler products: Where the hell was your humanitarian heart when young people in Israel were exploded in Pubs by "G-d believers" like you?

Posted by: ama | August 2, 2006 12:18 PM

Hezbollah cowardly hides behind innocent civilians while launching their rockets into Israeli -civilian- areas. The blood of the innocent is on Hezbollah's hands alone. Of course if you buy into the words of Kofi Annan and the good journalists at the Washington Post, you're probably inclined to believe that Israel -purposely- bombed a building full of civilians.

I don't know if Hezbollah purposely 'milked' the situation or not. I somehow find it difficult to put it past a group like Hezbollah to facilitate such a scene. I certainly doubt the ability of Jefferson Morley to discern the difference.

Posted by: Andrew | August 2, 2006 12:18 PM

Being one of those who questioned the conflicting, early reporting and what it might mean I have provided your answer in this post.

http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/2222

Hezbollah endangering citizens by hiding amongst them is a war crime. Clearly those children would not have died at the hands of Israelis if Hezbollah's base of operations was in the nearby fields or hills. But I do not need a conspiracy theory to challenge that clean, new blue pacifier tagged to the shirt of a baby's corpse. Killing the child was terrible. Using it as a propagande prop was criminal. When someone answers that question I would be more than happy to admit I jumped to a wrong conclusion.

AJStrata

Posted by: AJStrata | August 2, 2006 12:28 PM

I suppose the Hezbulla fighters should stand together in an open field to make it easier to drop bombs on them.

Calling them "cowards" for being among civilians is one thing, but last I checked it is the Israeli army that is dropping 500lb bombs from far up in the sky and inflicting heavy collateral damage so as not to have to actually engage in combat.

Playing the victim card at times may work given the history, but let's keep in mind that the civilian casualty rate is always 10-1 (20-1 in this one) in any conflict the Israeli's are involved in.

The "right to defend" has little relation to the concept of disproportionate response that the global community (minus the USA) is in concensous about.

Posted by: Bradely | August 2, 2006 12:59 PM

You can tell a lot about your opponent and his modus operandi by the sins that he accuses you of.

The GOP nasties in general and Bush & Co. in particular have taken this to an extreme, and it is no coincidence that their examples of their "rules of engagement" can be found ad nauseum in the Israel blogsphere.

This trait is infused with potency by the internet and the "rush" of seeing your words appear on the screen for all to read is a charge that escalates for those so inclined (where do they find the time, never mind the energy?). They hide behind nicknames like "SABRA" or "FU2" and rage on, and on, spinning wheels -- sound and fury and a whole lot of nothingness.

This is, of course, IMHO.

Posted by: Maura Lee | August 2, 2006 01:06 PM

curtius, you should seek help :)

Posted by: Andrew | August 2, 2006 01:12 PM

"What is it about the photos from Qana that made Israel's supporters prefer fantasy to fact?"

Are we now seeing a new form of "anti-Semitism" in the United States and some parts of Europe? Arabs and Muslims are now the subject of constant vitriol by these sections of the world population. Just as Jews were once considered the root of all trouble, for these people Muslims now carry the banner for barbarism, intolerance, being terrorist sympathizers, and a desire for world domination.

911, in my opinion, brought to the surface the undercurrents of anti-Muslim bias that had long existed amongst the neo-cons and certain Christian conservative groups. The Madrid and London bombings contributed to the sentiment in Europe, but for whatever reason, it does not seem to have attained the same intensity in Europe as it has in the U.S.
The desires to exonerate Israel for its excesses, that continue to be far greater in magnitude than those committed by Hizbullah, reflect that anti-Muslim/Arab bias. It is also reflected in past and especially current U.S foreign policy which can only kindly be described as pro-Israel (I suppose a case for the "Lobby" having some influence can be made ala Walt and Mersheimer).

Unfortunately the U.S is an integral part of attaining an equitable two state solution (Without its influence Israel will annex as much land as it possibly can and offer as little as it can get away with), and the Arab desire for the U.S to continue to play a vital role in mediating the conflict is a recognition of that fact, despite its one sided support to Israel.

Posted by: Zain | August 2, 2006 01:19 PM

I am appalled by those constant, repeated and monstrous attempts to "explain away news reports that Israel (and by proxy, its closest ally and arms supplier, the United States) was responsible for the deaths" of innocent civilians, most of them children, in Lebanon.

The Qana story is only one of the latest, followed yesterday by the central-eastern Bekaa Valley hospital battle (where patients were reported taken out of their beds as Israeli prisoners..), but where, of course, it has since been said by the Israelis that "there was no hospital to be found there, only Hizbollah fortifications"!!! -- Olmert).

As a Canadian, I ought to insist, for the record, that the most fanciful stories were heard from the Israelis after: 1. the entire Canadian Lebanese El-Akras family was murdered by the Israelis, in south Lebanon, 2. after Canadian Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener was assassinated by the Israelis, along with three other UN peacekeepers, while on duty along the Lebanese border.

The gist of the "arguments" is invariably that either it did not happen, or somehow Hizbollah did it! Need it be said that together with world opinion, we know better?

As it saves reason and honour, your question therefore deserves repeating and to be answered, "What is it... that makes Israel's supporters prefer fantasy to fact?"

Posted by: Robert Rose, Canada | August 2, 2006 01:24 PM

You fail to address the most obvious indication of conspiracy: the appearance of a 30-foot tall photographic banner -- featuring a picture of Condi Rice, with text about the Qana "massacre" -- within hours of the building's collapse.

Any graphics professional will tell you that such a banner would be impossible to produce in less than 24 hours.

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/014843.php

Posted by: Bill Biggar | August 2, 2006 01:29 PM

Why is it that when someone merely points out that Israel committed an atrocity against civilians, people get upset and want to know why we're not crying over Israeli civilians who have also been killed?

We ARE upset over anyone who gets killed in this war. Any man, woman, child who dies in this conflict is one person too many.

There, are you happy now? Good.

Now, please admit that Israel CAN BE and IS responsible for the murders of men, women, and children in Qana, other parts of southern Lebanon, and in Gaza.

And let's remember something here: If the Lebanese death toll is 10 times higher than the Israeli death toll, who is the terrorist?

Posted by: Susan | August 2, 2006 01:31 PM

I think the passengers of the 9/11 planes and the workers in the World Trade Center would have appreciated a leaflet or 2. How about the 214 US marines killed by Hezbollah. I'm sure they would have appreciated a leaflet or 2. But Hezbollah and Al-Qaeda wouldn't provide leaflets because mass carnage was the goal, not the unfortunate side effect. The "plan" of terrorism is to kill innocents. The "plan" of Israel is to kill terrorists.

Posted by: Confused | August 2, 2006 01:31 PM

It speaks volume that the W.POST allows this kind of on sided "analysis of what the International Online Media Are Saying about QANA"
No mention /ref. of anything in regard with HIZBOLLAH's possible spin on staging victims in connection with their documented use of civilian facilities & lifes as shields...?
Wondering when W.P. will next post an op-ed from BIN LADEN's view of the question & its MEDIA coverage, finally showing their true idea of journalism ethics, balanced & accurate reporting & better undertsanding of what's behind ,hem "facts"...W.P. you are so over as a trustable news organization.

Posted by: ocale | August 2, 2006 01:32 PM

Here's a story: do you know why Israeli soldiers could never use women and children as "human shields" against our "freedom fighter" (terrorist) enemies? Because they willingly and delinerately _target_ women and children, e.g. in suicide bombings, to begin with.

On the other hand, the Israeli army makes every effort not to harm civilians. Yet civilians are constantly killed and injured. How so? Because we are not fighting an army, we are fighting a large group (several thousands) of cowardly guerillas shooting rockets at _our_ civilian cities and towns from _inside_ civilian concentrations in Lebanon. What are we supposed to do? Just sit there and be bombed by them?

Let me remind you this whole thing started when Hizbollah, with no prior provocation, kidnapped two soldiers from _inside_ the internationally recognized Israeli border and began shooting rockets at our northern towns. Only then did we begin our counter-attack in Lebanon. Don't believe me, check for yourselves.

Posted by: An Israeli citizen | August 2, 2006 01:34 PM

Also not mentioned was the interesting photographic evidence presented at the EU Referendum Blog that suggests the presence of the same individual at both Qana incidents. While this does not prove anything in particular, it certainly raises some questions, no?

Posted by: Steven Miller | August 2, 2006 01:36 PM

more from dershowitz ...(you mean I can get money for defending a man who basically decapitated his wife...cool bring it on I could sure use the money)...

"As Golda Meir once said about her Arab enemies: "We can perhaps forgive them for killing our children, but we can never forgive them for making us kill their children." How prescient."

So unforgivable that you have continued to kill "their" children for another 40 plus years....

Posted by: Angus | August 2, 2006 01:37 PM

Yes yes, no surprises there, the internet can indeed misinform, especially if you read the above colom.

To note one thing, as to the number of casualties, ICRC reported thus far 37, where did the other 20 go? the writer of ths colom will probably tell us.

As for inconvenient truth, here is a blunder for you we all remember very well: the "Jenin Massacre". Some how the Palestinians reported 5000 civilians, then dropped to 500 and then, to their horror, came the UN and the ICRC and noted that 57 palestinians were killed out of which little less than half were Hamas terrorists who hid among civilians leaving the number of civilian casualties at 30. Quite a bit less than 5000 isn't it? I'll let you guess what number stuck in the memory of the writer of the above colom.

You want another inconvenient truth? Here goes. Jan Egeland, UN humanitarian aid coordinator and a known "supporter" of Israel noted in Cyprus a day after he criticized Israel for a disproportionate response that the majority of civilian casualties were the result of Hezbollah's tactic of hiding among civilians. He noted that Hezbollah was bolstering the civilian casualties as a PR weapon... sickening. To tink that in Israel they are more sad about civilian deaths in Lebanon than Hezbollah.

All these inconvenient truths along with the IDF video showing the rockets fired from Qana, make me think that if there is any misinforming internet source out there, it is the washington post who published coloms such as the one above.

Posted by: The Middle East News Addict | August 2, 2006 01:37 PM

Mr. Morley,
I am upset that your column, normally very fair and balanced (sorry, for the Fox reference, but you are, and they are not), would even lend credence to this reprehensible attempt at spin.
I know that your column is called world opinion round-up, but this story has only showed up (with any attempt at credence) in Israel, of course, and in America.
The first time I heard this was from the Israeli Ambassador to the United Nations on Meet the Press on Sunday. I couldn't beleive it then, and I can't beleive that ANYONE with two firing brain cells would swallow it.
I guess it just goes to show the gullibility of some people, and the way in which humans are willing to beleive anything that supports their skewed view of the world in general, and the conflict in Lebanon, and the West Bank and Gaza Specifically.
Thank you for all your effort, but next time, leave the Israeli propaganda to the rest of the Washington ComPost

Posted by: | August 2, 2006 01:39 PM

and of course lets not forget Golda Meir's brave decision to drop bombs on a Palestinian Refugee camp after the killing of the Israeli athletes in Munich - killing 200 plus women and children purely for guilt by association....the crime of being Palestinian within reach of israel...

Posted by: Angus | August 2, 2006 01:44 PM

Who is the man known as "Green Helmet" who was in so many of these pictures, and why was he in other, similar photos dating back to 1996?


I think I can help you out with this one. This is from various articles that can be found on the web. Note that this same fellow was at Q in 1996.

As yet another body was removed from the wreckage yesterday morning, Naim Raqa, the head of the civil defence team searching the ruins, hung his head in grief: "When they found them, they were all huddled together at the back of the room ... Poor things, they thought the walls would protect them."

"Where is the humanity? Why are these massacres being committed against civilians?" asked Naim Raqa, the head of the Lebanese civil defence unit in nearby Jawaya, who was helping the rescue.

Naim Raqahead of civil defense in the nearby town of Jouaya, sat on a pile of rubble, his black uniform covered in a fine concrete powder.

"I was in Qana in '96," the exhausted rescue worker said. "Israel, when it is weakened, commits bigger massacres.

"We were told about this massacre -- I don't know what time it was. We couldn't move at night, even in ambulances, because of the shelling. They should allow us to move so we can work."

He wiped beads of sweat from his brow.

"They were still asleep, hiding. They were all near the walls, huddled in fear. We found many of them like this," he said, drawing his knees and elbows into his chest in a fetal-like position. "The poor things thought the walls would protect them. I had the honor of removing about 15 of them."

His break was interrupted by a colleague calling for stretchers as the bodies of two more young boys were removed, their tiny pajama shorts and T-shirts covered in soil and dust.

Raqa didn't wait for the stretchers to arrive. He scooped up one child; a bystander carried the other.

Posted by: | August 2, 2006 01:50 PM

Shoot and scoot! Common artillery tactic because your fired shells show up on your enemy's radar and they fire back at your guns or rocket launchers. It's counter battery fire.

So Hezbollah fires from next to an apartment building then scoots, knowing what will happen. IDF fires back, hits the apartment building. There's the basic facts of what occured. Happens all the time because Hezbollah likes the good press that furthers it's agenda.

The Washington Post and Hezbollah share an agenda, a sick one, and this silly "Conspiracy Theory" about bloggers article furthers it. I'm just sick of politicians and the media twisting everything to advance a selfish agenda rather than truth and the national interest. Shame on the Washington Post!

Posted by: Lawrence Roberts | August 2, 2006 01:51 PM

The only conspiracy theory is sept 11 which was planned by mozzad and executed to perfection.

Israelis are torturing Palestenians for 60 years. Most of the terrorist attacks on israel is sponsored by mozzad. Why Israelis kill israelis? Well. The plan is keep the war going so that they can wipe out palestenians with bulldozer. And world will side with them.

Even here mr Blog owner starting their own conspiracy theory. Israelis kill people and blame the dead for being innocent civilains.

I think there are limits to this kind of cruelty. I think israelis and jews are crossing mosral boundary.

People are not that stupid to see what is reality.

We all know islam is a virus and has to be curbed. But we also learn in this lebanese situation that Israel is a bad idea. It creates evil in people. Jews in america using american lives and weapons to create Greater Israel.

Stop this nonsense.

This is why world need two super power. If one goes to evil side , another has to bring them back.

America lost its moral superiority and high moral standard and behaving like nazi murderers. Actually it is not america but the people who is running america are right wing jews (leo strauss (nihilist fan) deciples)).

Posted by: Alex | August 2, 2006 01:51 PM

There was probably no conspiracy, but listen: In the Arab world they are all very happy with this tragedy proving once again the cruelty of the "Zionist Entity", In Israel the Generals and politicians are looking into this issue how to avoid such horrific events, while Israel aims at terrorists, Hizbullah is shooting at Israeli cities, and from where? They are shooting from mosques, kindergartens, schools, etc. just hoping that this sort of terrible tragedy would occur, holding women and children hostage on both sides of the border with total contempt to human lives.

Posted by: Observer | August 2, 2006 01:54 PM

"Confused":
You really are confused (Just like the Idiot in Chief and his coterie of anti-Muslim bigots was in Iraq) if you are equating Al Qaeda and Hizbullah. How about trying to explain the confusion surrounding the U.S support of a theocratic state (Israel) and its continued occupation and suppression of Palestinians?

Posted by: Zain | August 2, 2006 01:58 PM

Morley ,

You lost it my respect. I know it is your blog. But there are limits to what you can post.

I have no beef with jews in america. They bring balance to american liberal society.

But israel is created to destroy muslims from the beginning.

I am for modernize Islma and make it fit to the democratic world. I am against killing civilians even if they are muslims. Muslims are humans just like anyother. It is just that they are canvassed with a belief that do not suit this century.

Israel is evil. Always was. I did n't realize until now. I just happen to read some of the quotes of israeli leaders. Just read them and see the gruesome thoughts they have.

Zionism In Their Own Words


'If I knew that it was possible tosave all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, andonly half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choosethe latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these childrenbut the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.'

-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).


'This country exists as thefulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous toask it to account for its legitimacy.'

-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971


'We walked outside, Ben-Gurionaccompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done withthe Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesturewhich said 'Drive them out!'

-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.


'[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs.'

-- Israeli Prime MinisterMenachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk,"Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.


'(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls.'

-- Israeli Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers, New York Times April 1, 1988


'If we thought that instead of 200Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting ata stroke, we would use much more force....'

-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.


'It is the duty of Israeli leadersto explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certainnumber of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these isthat there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without theeviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.'

-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli ForeignMinister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wingTsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

'Everybody has to move, run and grabas many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish)settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everythingwe don't grab will go to them.'

-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

'Israel may have the right to putothers on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewishpeople and the State of Israel on trial.'

-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online


Posted by: Alex | August 2, 2006 01:58 PM

Is this a poor Hezbollah website? Poor Hezbollah? Supported by Iran and Syria to $20-$40 million dollars per year. Poor Hezbollah that seduces women and children into acting as human shields so that they can become "martyrs" for Allah while the cowardly guerillas can live to fight another day. Billboards litter southern lebanon with pictures of women holding their babies in their arms, encouraging them to give up their children to become suicide bombers.

Posted by: Confused | August 2, 2006 01:59 PM

To Zain

If you want to talk about displacement and history, I would suggest two sources:

The first is the Peel committee report from 1937. There the committee predicted huge problems due to the massive land sale to Jews by Arabs... raises an interesting question about displacment.

As for who displaced who, perhaps it is best that you look into Islamic tradition and see why it is that Hezbollah has chosen the name "Khaybar" for its most advanced missile so far fired at Afula, Israel. Khaybar is one of the two places in the Kuran from which Muhammad drove the Jews who sat there for ages. This is not some Zionist propaganda, this is the Kuran admiting the Jews were there first and that Muhammad drove them away.

Posted by: The News Addict | August 2, 2006 02:00 PM

Just so that you have the entire picture, Jefferson, quite a few more people than we lowly few bloggers are quite interested in the questions we raised about Qana.

According to the Jerusalem Post this morning, both the IDF and the International Red Cross are now quite interested in answer the many questions we raised, including:

When did the building collapse, and what caused the collapse?

Were the photos taken of the victims staged?

Why do the bodies of the victims not show the injuries/debris one would expect in any building collapse?

Why weren't journalists allowed near the building?

Why is their such a discrepancy in the initial casualty figures cited to the world (55-60) and the number of bodes recovered by the Lebanese Red Cross (28)?

Who is the man known as "Green Helmet" who was in so many of these pictures, and why was he in other, similar photos dating back to 1996?

Hezbollah is a past master of propaganda warfare, from the faked "Jenin Massacre" of 2002 that the world media accepted nearly unquestioningly even after the "dead" got out of caskets and walked, to the questionable death of Muhammad al-Durrah, the exposed "Pallywood" stage managing of Hezbollah in the past deserves a critical eye.

It is rather sad that this critical eye is not being wielded by the professional media.

Bob Owens
Confederate Yankee Blog
http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/
Former Washingtonpost.com guest blogger

Posted by: Bob Owens | August 2, 2006 02:00 PM

Read the following quotes of jewish leaders and see who has the motivation to kill civilians. I hope you havethe brain to see it.
-------------------------------------------

'If I knew that it was possible tosave all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, andonly half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choosethe latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these childrenbut the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.'

-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).


'This country exists as thefulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous toask it to account for its legitimacy.'

-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971


'We walked outside, Ben-Gurionaccompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done withthe Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesturewhich said 'Drive them out!'

-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.


'[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs.'

-- Israeli Prime MinisterMenachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk,"Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.


'(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls.'

-- Israeli Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers, New York Times April 1, 1988


'If we thought that instead of 200Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting ata stroke, we would use much more force....'

-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.


'It is the duty of Israeli leadersto explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certainnumber of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these isthat there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without theeviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.'

-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli ForeignMinister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wingTsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

'Everybody has to move, run and grabas many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish)settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everythingwe don't grab will go to them.'

-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

'Israel may have the right to putothers on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewishpeople and the State of Israel on trial.'

-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

Posted by: Alex | August 2, 2006 02:01 PM

One simple question if the photos were not staged

why is the dirt UNDERNEATH the dead baby with the pacifier appear freshly dug as a trench.

If the baby was just pulled from the rubble how could there be a nice shovel tipped ditched underneath the baby? Clearly no matter what else happened this photo is staged

Where were all the men aged 16-45??? is it not odd to find a group of disabled and children with not men of fighting age? would you leave your family alone in a war?

Posted by: anon | August 2, 2006 02:02 PM

First, I would presume that for integrity purposes the photojournalists would make sure that their cameras were time-synced either to local or Zulu time. If they have done that, then go back and check the "raw" photos for their time stamps and then post those times with the pictures. Have an independent observer confirm the information for integrity's sake. Doing this can put the conspiracy to rest. Not doing so, will only lead to further speculation that the photos were staged to benefit Hezbollah and hurt Israel.

Posted by: Ray | August 2, 2006 02:05 PM

Observer:

"In the Arab world they are all very happy with this tragedy proving once again the cruelty of the "Zionist Entity", "

Would you care to share what evidence led you to this opinion? I have family in the Middle East and so far all I have heard of is shock, sadness and anger. I suppose in your world Muslims are savages who would rejoice at this barbarism.

That said, I see nothing wrong with projecting this Israeli atrocity for the world to see so that, if nothing else, Israel is more selective in picking its targets next time. Going by history though, it does not seem very likely.

Posted by: Zain | August 2, 2006 02:19 PM

The Neutral Facts are:

1. Their war is Jew vs. Arab.

2. No matter what "nice things" the Jews do, the Arabs will launch an attack. So it has become Tit-for-tat. Arabs attack, Jews counter-attack. Both sides know this. Arabs will not allow Jews to let loose their straggle hold on the Palestinians which results in more attacks on the Jews.

3. The Arabs attack civilian areas with young suicide bombers and rockets. Jews attempt surgical strikes on terrorist leaders which sometimes hit civilians.

4. Currently, Arabs rain down hundreds of missiles a day on towns and cities targeting civilians with no complaint from the world at large. Jews screw up a surgical strike and that's all you hear about. Very one sided.

5. Lebanon has an elected government. The people (parents) have allowed an Internationally recognized terrorist group to become a part of their government and are now paying the price. The Lebanon Government is just as responsible as the terrorist.

6. There will never be peace between Jews and Arabs until one or the other is utterly defeated.

Posted by: glider | August 2, 2006 02:23 PM

Mr. Morley asks, "What is it... that makes Israel's supporters prefer fantasy to fact?" Answer: the facts (i.e., malicious attacks on Israeli civilians launched from the midst of civilians who exhult, both in the Jewish deaths, and in the inevitable civilian casualties caused by Israel's just retaliation) are very ugly, and have been forced upon Israel by anti-Semitic murderers.

Perhaps the question most justly directed at Mr. Morley, and the little Hitler, Angus, and others like him, is: what is it about Jews that makes you so angry when they defend themselves?

Or do you little Hitlers also think that the US and the UK took a disproportionate response to NAZI and Japanese attacks when they bombed those muderers and their civilian hangers-on to smithereens?

Jews have as much right as Anglo-Saxons to defend themselves. Of course, the Anti-Americans and the Anti-Semites apparently think there is no right to self-defense. According to those losers, the Jews and Anglos should just roll over and die; that would be a more proportionate response to their attempted muder by Arab/Islamist evildoers.

Be fair to the victims of murderous aggression, and do not grasp for reasons to ignore the crimes committed against them, to characterize their defese against aggression as aggression. Otherwise, you simply are not fair, and have no right to call yourself a Christian, a theist, a liberal, a moralist, a humanitarian, a humanist, or even a human. Of course, you could just ignore the truth, and the demands of justice, and wink at the murderers of Jews, who continue with virtual impunity to act out your genocidal fantasies. Or, you could wake up and start proclaiming the truth, with justice. G*d will judge you in the end.

Posted by: Richard Johnson | August 2, 2006 02:24 PM

Thanks to hateful idiots like Angus the israeli point of view will always triumph in the US.

Posted by: Concerned | August 2, 2006 02:25 PM

"Muslims are savages who rejoice in this barbarism", congratulations Zain for finally seeing the world as it is!

Posted by: Jim Bob | August 2, 2006 02:27 PM

"Yesha Rabbinical Council: During time of war, enemy has no innocents

The Yesha Rabbinical Council announced in response to an IDF attack in Kfar Qanna that "according to Jewish law, during a time of battle and war, there is no such term as 'innocents' of the enemy."

All of the discussions on Christian morality are weakening the spirit of the army and the nation and are costing us in the blood of our soldiers and civilians," the statement said. (Efrat Weiss)"

How can there only be innocents on one side?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283720,00.html

Posted by: Thom | August 2, 2006 02:27 PM

B20 -

it is not hard to drive a wedge between modern hip christians in the north with scandalous western clothes and enforcement of shia islam on them... Do not think for one second if hizbollah takes over women in the north will not be able to dress as they currently do. There was one report about how the southern shia were shocked at the dress of the northerners (where they are now refugees).. theocratic islam versus western culture.

there is a lot of "noise" that hizbollah intimidates people and if anyone has watched enough news coverage they know hizbollah controls the streets and dictates when and where reporters can go.

Posted by: anon | August 2, 2006 02:30 PM

You want a conspiracy theory, how about this: There is no war, it never happened, this whole thing is nothing more than one more Karl Rove political stunt. It is all designed to draw either Syria or Iran into a war and it has to happen, and it will happen, surprise, surprise, by late October. The murdering of children is the ultimate provocation, and that's the exact intention. If Syria and or Iran cannot be goaded into war, bombing will begin in October regardless, so their message is, You might as well take the bait now because we just keep picking at you, humiliating the Arab people, destroying innocent villages and causing more damage until you come out and attack us. In the words of Karl's clueless drunk puppet, "Bring It On." This war the neo-cons have been manstrabating over for over a decade now.
Why the neo cons want this war goes back many years. It arose in Y2K apocalyptic Limbaugh triumphalism no reality based details can ever derail. For Cheney and von Rumsfield it goes back even further, the red menace, the bay of pigs and the compact Herbert Walker on the Grassy Knoll. Today as the details about 9/11 are beginning to unravel and more people are beginning to suspect something stinks, your O'Riley sarcasm over the very term conspiracy theory wares thin. Everything is a conspiracy theory unless both Fox News and Buzzflash.com are both always true at the same time. This invasion of Lebanon is Cheney's war, few doubt it. The right wing noise machine and even hate radio opinion masters have been told to call it a proxy war.
Why they want the war now is all politics. First it keeps the complete debacle in Iraq off the sheeple's minds and it keeps other troubling details off the front pages such as the complete and total full scale refusal of the people of Mexico to allow another election to be stolen. For almost a month now the nation on our southern border has not had a recognized president and it has never made the news in the US once, all thanks to Cheney's war. So you want a conspiracy theory here it is. Sure Qana happened. Murdering children and humiliating the entire non-Jewish Middle East is the exact mission at the moment so to goad Syrian and Iran into a war in time for the November elections. This is Cheney's war and even the Israeli military know it's a colossal disaster.

Posted by: curtius | August 2, 2006 02:31 PM

I particularly love the pacifist's 'fanciful' re-invention of facts. Funny, no mention is made of Hizbollah's deliberate targeting of innocent civilians, and the hypocrytical supporters that cheer when Americans, Europeans, non-muslims of all color (oh, and any muslims that aren't the right type of muslim), and yes, Canadians, die at the hands of terrorists, while whaling in disgust when their own "innocent" compatriots are caught in the crossfire. Wake up. Islamic terrorists like nothing more than to see innocent lives taken, including their own family members. Anything to justify their own spoiled, self-indulgent murderous behavior.

Posted by: Mike | August 2, 2006 02:34 PM

BESIDES THE SHEER REVULSION the attempted coverup outlined above causes, shows clearly the
deliberate lies and information we're fed
regarding Israel day after day.
We hear how Americans still support Israel...I doubt it. Well before Qana and particularly after it. But like the above, where would we see real polls?
Is this all going to end well?

Posted by: REVULSION | August 2, 2006 02:39 PM

QANA and Denial
Nazi supporters maintained long after Nuremberg that Auschwitz never existed. Equally interestingly, the averge person saw many times the Gestapo appearing and then jews disappearing from his neighborhood. Most denied that they knew what was happening to the jews.

Qana is by no means even remotely the tragedy of Auschwith, but it is interesting to see that human psychology has not changed. Denial comes easily when facts do not align with beliefs.

Posted by: Oscar | August 2, 2006 02:41 PM

Through your very long you ignored a basic fact:

From the village of Qana itself, from its streets and houses, the Hezbolla terrorists fired hundreds of rockets into Israeli towns and villages.
If I had the authoriy, I would have destroyed the entire village togehter with all its "innocent civillians".

Posted by: Mendy | August 2, 2006 02:45 PM

Blaming the victim, always a good excuse for doing something wrong.How can anyone seek the moral high ground by engaging in collective punishment? In light of who notoriously used this tactic during WWII, you would think the Israelis would be the last to use this tactic.

What value does Israel have to America, besides being a good customer to US defense contractors? Israel has nukes, a strong economy and infrastructure, also a well developed, efficient military, they can take care of themselves. The special relationship between our two countries is a net loss for America. Our foreign policy needs to reflect whats in our best interest.

Posted by: NonDualCitizen | August 2, 2006 02:49 PM

""Muslims are savages who rejoice in this barbarism", congratulations Zain for finally seeing the world as it is!"

You mean the fanciful fairy land that you and observer inhabit?
Actually ugly and bigoted would be more apt a description than fanciful.

Posted by: Zain | August 2, 2006 02:50 PM

When I decide which side to support, I picture myself living in the 2 different countries under the two different forms of rule and law. Let's see, southern Lebanon under Hezbollah or Tel Aviv under Israel. Iran under the Mullahs, or the U.S. under democracy. Please choose your side of support wisely because you may just get your wish to come true.

Posted by: Confused | August 2, 2006 02:55 PM

Mike:

"'fanciful' re-invention of facts."

What facts have been re-invented? Go scroll through the archives of CNN. You will find that Hizbullah did not start shelling Israeli towns until two days AFTER Israel started bombing Lebanon, had killed over sixty civilians and destroyed crucial civilian infrastructure.

The focus SHOULD be on what Israel is doing because it has killed 600 plus civilians and reduced a large part of the country to rubble. In contrast Hizbullah has killed 19 Israeli civilians and thirty soldiers. Hizbullah rockets have done minimal damage to Israeli towns. The "Fair and Balanced" thing to do would be to focus on criticizing the side causing the majority of the death and destruction ,and that is Israel.

Richard Johnson:

"Jews have as much right as Anglo-Saxons to defend themselves."

The Arabs under occupation also have a right to liberate themselves. The violence occurs because of the occupation and the continuing annexation of Arab land by Israel by virtue of the settlement movement. Get rid of the occupation, withdraw Israel to the 67 borders and then you can blame the Arabs for being violent. Until then Israel is the occupier and suppressor of a people who should do everything they can to win freedom.

Posted by: Zain | August 2, 2006 03:04 PM

Confused:

When you talk about choosing between Israel and Lebanon, please do not leave out that Israel is a Jewish theocracy that does not afford the gentiles (non Jews) the same rights as Jews. It is a nation that continues to occupy and suppress three and a half million Palestinians and refuses to let almost a million Palestinian refugees, displaced from what is now Israel (after its creation), return home. If this is the side you would choose you really are confused, and bereft of any humanistic values whatsoever.

Posted by: Zain | August 2, 2006 03:13 PM

In late April and on May 3, 2002, the UN, Amnesty International and HRW released reports about the Israeli military incursions into Jenin. The reports documented that approximately 30 Palestinian militants, 22 Palestinian civilians, and 23 Israeli soldiers were killed in the fighting and thus felt no evidence that a massacre took place.


UN report

Fifty-two Palestinian deaths had been confirmed by the hospital in Jenin by the end of May 2002. IDF also places the death toll at approximately 52. A senior Palestinian Authority official alleged in mid-April that some 500 were killed, a figure that has not been substantiated in the light of the evidence that has emerged. Article (56).
UN Report was strongly criticized by Human Rights Watch as "flawed" for not having any first-hand evidence and failing to address serious questions[34].

[edit]

Human Rights Watch report

The HRW report found "no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF".

Posted by: reason | August 2, 2006 03:17 PM

I am wondering about the facts from Qana. Mainly I am wondering about the timeline, I wasn't there so what I'm wondering is this, if the building was struck between midnight and 1 am, and it didn't collapse until around 8 am, what were all those people doing in that building at 8 am? The news stories all agree that most of the dead are women and children from 2 families, were they in the building before the bombing and they stayed in it all night or did they go into the building after it was hit but before it collapsed, if so why? Where were the rescue personal after the building was struck and before the building collapsed? So far there are no news stories that list rescue personal among those killed in the building collapse. Why did they wait for 7-8 hours ( until daylight) and after the building collapsed before they entered the building to look for people injured in the bombing? I believe that these questions are the basis for all the confusion so far. When one side in a war doesn't wear uniforms and builds firebases in residential neighborhoods that shoot unguided missile's indiscriminately at people who are not taking part in the actual conflict and build their headquarters in mosques, schools and hospitals, it does make a person wonder if we are hearing the truth about one specific bombing.

Posted by: James | August 2, 2006 03:22 PM

And with all of Israels negative attributes, it's still a much better place to live than southern lebanon. I am a lebanese christian. I very much support Israel helping Lebanon ride itself of the cancer that is Hezbollah, Iran, and Syrian influence. The democratic and rational portion of Lebanon is a beautiful place with beautiful people. Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran will never allow Lebanon to continue on this path towards peace and rational and that is why they must be removed from influencing Lebanon.

Posted by: Confused | August 2, 2006 03:25 PM

I believe your piece misses the real point and I'd encourage you to check my post below. I know I and many don't intend to be claiming Hizbollah killed the individuals, only that the perception of the event may have been managed and magnified. I also addressed where some number of bodies may have come from to augment the numbers.

Someone exploiting an actual incident is more in line with what I imagine most believe. And except perhaps for local stringers who editors will likely never come to really know, I doubt many think the press is complicit, but simply negligent when it comers to trying to get a scoop, or "money" shot. I wonder, how many of you would unendingly parade your or your neighbor's dead child around raised high for all to see. It at least suggests a lack of respect for that life in service of something else.


http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2006/07/a_tyre_for_qana.html

Posted by: Dan Riehl | August 2, 2006 03:32 PM

Israelis are worse than muslims. Israeli right wingers follow nihilist ideas. These people are dangerous to humanity.

They treat palestenians like dirt. No wonder hiteler tortured jews.

Israelis, You can't maniplulate the world all the time.

I know muslims are dangerous to civilized world.

But israelis are dangerous to whole humanity.

Israel should not be allowed to exist. Qana is a small example of what to come. Israel will be the next country after America will use nukes on a muslim state.

Qana is an example of what to come. Some people should n't exist. Israelis are one of them.

Jews in america is ok but they should not be allowed to create their own country anywhere in the world.

Posted by: Alex | August 2, 2006 03:33 PM

I used to gullibly believe the Arab claims, but then I read about the JENIN "MASSACRE". I remember Arab leaders like Saab Erekat trying to spin the lie that hundreds upon hundreds of Palestinians had been wantonly "massacred" in the city of Jenin.

But it turned out to be a complete falsehood. It turned out that maybe 50 people had been killed during warfare.

So, now I'm a bit more skeptical. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Hezbollah was cynically attempting to generate another "massacre" for public consumption. It certainly serves their cause, despite the shrill denials of Hezbollah partisans like Mr. Morley.

As they say, fool me once shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

Posted by: APS | August 2, 2006 03:36 PM

Here is an account of the last time the Israelis massacred innocent civilians in Qana. This was a U.N refugee camp. What excuse was there for this?


Here is a link to a description of Robert Fisk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fisk

Robert Fisk
Qana, 19 April 1996

It was a massacre. Not since Sabra and Chatila had I seen the innocent slaughtered like this. The Lebanese refugee women and children and men lay in heaps, their hands or arms or legs missing, beheaded or disembowelled. There were well over a hundred of them. A baby lay without a head. The Israeli shells had scythed through them as they lay in the United Nations shelter, believing that they were safe under the world's protection. Like the Muslims of Srebrenica, the Muslims of Qana were wrong.

In front of a burning building of the UN's Fijian battalion headquarters, a girl held a corpse in her arms, the body of a grey- haired man whose eyes were staring at her, and she rocked the corpse back and forth in her arms, keening and weeping and crying the same words over and over: "My father, my father." A Fijian UN soldier stood amid a sea of bodies and, without saying a word, held aloft the body of a headless child.

"The Israelis have just told us they'll stop shelling the area", a UN soldier said, shaking with anger. "Are we supposed to thank them?" In the remains of a burning building - the conference room of the Fijian UN headquarters - a pile of corpses was burning. The roof had crashed in flames onto their bodies, cremating them in front of my eyes. When I walked towards them, I slipped on a human hand...

Israel's slaughter of civilians in this terrible 10-day offensive - 206 by last night - has been so cavalier, so ferocious, that not a Lebanese will forgive this massacre. There had been the ambulance attacked on Saturday, the sisters killed in Yohmor the day before, the 2-year-old girl decapitated by an Israeli missile four days ago. And earlier yesterday, the Israelis had slaughtered a family of 12 - the youngest was a four- day-old baby - when Israeli helicopter pilots fired missiles into their home.

Shortly afterwards, three Israeli jets dropped bombs only 250 metres from a UN convoy on which I was travelling, blasting a house 30 feet into the air in front of my eyes. Travelling back to Beirut to file my report on the Qana massacre to the Independent last night, I found two Israeli gunboats firing at the civilian cars on the river bridge north of Sidon.

Every foreign army comes to grief in Lebanon. The Sabra and Chatila massacre of Palestinians by Israel's militia allies in 1982 doomed Israel's 1982 invasion. Now the Israelis are stained again by the bloodbath at Qana, the scruffy little Lebanese hill town where the Lebanese believe Jesus turned water into wine.

The Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres may now wish to end this war. But the Hizbollah are not likely to let him. Israel is back in the Lebanese quagmire. Nor will the Arab world forget yesterday'a terrible scenes.

The blood of all the refugees ran quite literally in streams from the shell-smashed UN compound restaurant in which the Shiite Muslims from the hill villages of southern Lebanon - who had heeded Israel's order to leave their homes - had pathetically sought shelter. Fijian and French soldiers heaved another group of dead - they lay with their arms tightly wrapped around each other - into blankets.

A French UN trooper muttered oaths to himself as he opened a bag in which he was dropping feet, fingers, pieces of people's arms. And as we walked through this obscenity, a swarm of people burst into the compound. They had driven in wild convoys down from Tyre and began to pull the blankets off the mutilated corpses of their mothers and sons and daughters and to shriek "Allahu Akbar" (God is Great") and to threaten the UN troops.

We had suddenly become not UN troops and journalists but Westerners, Israel's allies, an object of hatred and venom. One bearded man with fierce eyes stared at us, his face dark with fury. "You are Americans", he screamed at us. "Americans are dogs. You did this. Americans are dogs."

President Bill Clinton has allied himself with Israel in its war against "terrorism" and the Lebanese, in their grief, had not forgotten this. Israel's official expression of sorrow was rubbing salt in their wounds. "I would like to be made into a bomb and blow myself up amid the Israelis", one old man said.

As for the Hizbollah, which has repeatedly promised that Israelis will pay for their killing of Lebanese civilians, its revenge cannot be long in coming. Operation Grapes of Wrath may then turn out then to be all too aptly named.

Posted by: Zain | August 2, 2006 03:39 PM

Thank you Alex for showing your true face.

Posted by: Confused | August 2, 2006 03:42 PM

There is only one word to characterize Mr. Morley's latest effort ("Qana Conspiracy Theory") DRIVEL!

Posted by: David G. Ward | August 2, 2006 03:43 PM

The Israeli government is at the least aiding propaganda squads that are attempting to bend the Internet buzz to their side through spamming boards (and I assume blog comments, creating blogs etc.) and also fixing Internet polls.

The thing I found interesting is that the same mean sprited people doing the pro Israel spam sound like the people who were first to jump to the defense of WalMart, Microsoft, and George Bush and other Republicans before 2002 and have been usually working 10-12 hours a day since on how great Christianity Republicans and now Israel are (which indicates that Faith Based Charity money is involved now).

There is a mainstream link to the evidence that Israel does have a propaganda machine going at my blog: http://dotcommonsense.blog-city.com/

The speculation of a possible American machine that may be drawing money from the FBC program comes from my years of experience with the overwhelming right wing Internet machine in the US.

I think this needs to be checked out thoroughly though. Maybe Israelis don't mind paying tax dollars for a propaganda machine, but it would be illegal in the US and I sure don't want my money going for it.

Posted by: Bill Lenner | August 2, 2006 03:56 PM

Zain: I am not unsympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians dispossessed of land in 1948, but it does not justify suicide bombing of civilians (let alone all the rejoicing we saw Palestinians engaging in on 9/11 -- they justly lost some friends that day).

Also, let's not forget that the U.N. created and approved the 1947 plan for the partition of Cis-Jordan between Israel and Palestine, and the Arabs rejected the world's plan, attacked the Jews, and started down a half-century long series of self-inflicted defeats. If Palestinians are angry, they should blame: (1) the whole world, including the U.N. which created Israel; (2) the other Arabs, who rejected the two-state solution that was much better for Palestinians than any solution they can hope to get now, and who themselves seized and occupied the Arab lands not taken by Israel during its defense of the 1948 aggression, and who themselves have herded Pelestinians into refugee camps, denied them citizenship and rights, and done absolutely nothing concrete to advance the Palestinian cause; (3) the U.N., which voted for partition, and, ever since the Palestinians rejected it, have coddled corrupt Palestinian leaders and helped to institutionalize Palestinian victimhood; and (4) themselves, for never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity (responsibility: now there's a radical proposition).

You may be sore that the U.N. approved the creation of Israel in the first place, but it does not justify the slaughter of innocent civilians who have colonized Israel in reliance on the world body's creation of Israel.

We can see from the posts here, and from the reports in the world media, not to mention from just about anything one reads from the Arab street, that lots of people hate the Jews. (Clearly, lots also hate the Americans.) But G*d says that he will bless those who bless Israel, and curse those who curse Israel. Perhaps you don't believe it; but all the evidence confirms it. Do not be a such a sore loser in the geo-political contest. Life can still be good for Palestinian persons, just as it is good for Zoroastrians and others (including the Jews for 2000 years) who have been dispossessed of their original homelands by forces beyond their control. Palestinians have a bright future as eductated, productive, propserous urban professionals, if they take that chance. Sadly, too many (encouraged by radicals with no sympathy for the innocent victims of terror) have lost sight of the real possibilities G*d grants them in their own lives, and choose instead to waste their own lives by lashing out in shameless, self-indulgent, bloodthirsty attacks on the innocent. You terrorists and terrorist sypathizers are wasting your lives, and you will not be rewarded for it in the next life.

Posted by: Richard Johnson | August 2, 2006 04:00 PM

I am most struck that the media play a points game that is based on headlines and superficial moments called photo ops.

Kana = 2 points Hisbolla
Hizbolla attacks violates intenationa border = 2 points israel
Ajaminajab (iranian lunny) and Nasrella call to wipe out israel = 2 points israel
civilian casulties = 2 point hizbolla
picture of katusha launcher in residential area = 2 points Israel
Oil= 4 point Any Arab 6 points for French and Russians
Holocaust = 2 points Israel (4 points from germany) (0 points UK)
Fear of radical Islam Nukes = 2 points Israel from US and UK 2 points Hizbolla from French
On and On and On.
The media simplistic approach is unrealistic for this complex layered story. Yes, Hizbollah has a grip over access for media and imagination. Remember the Jenin Massacare

Posted by: mike | August 2, 2006 04:02 PM

How come no one in the media is addressing the following entirely likely take on the Israeli offensive? That is, that the "accidental" (put in quotes as a hypothesis that it is not that at all) is a deliberate attempt to drive a wedge between Hezbollah and the people of Lebanon?

It's pretty simple, I think:

1. Create collateral deaths.

2. Remind the world that Hezbollah "brought this on Lebanon".

3. Sit back and watch the infighting.

4. Repeat till Hezbollah's support in Lebanon bottoms out to its essential base.

Posted by: B2O | August 2, 2006 04:03 PM

Israeli will deny any atrocities that their armed forces has will commit in Lebanon in order to justify their brutal tactics. This is similar to the moms of the US marines who refuse to accept that their "angel" sons could do anything wrong in Iqar, like the Haditha massacre of whole family. Despite glaring facts in the face, some people who have blood on their consciences need to resort to childish explanation so that they can sleep at night. Simple fact is that Israeli army has admitted that they knew there will civilians in the Qana buidling and that they atill went ahead and bombed it because it was being used by Hezbollah fighters to launch rockets at Israel. If this happened in Pitsburgh, then whoever gave orders would face murder charge and fry in electric chair.

Posted by: John | August 2, 2006 04:06 PM

Where is the Arab / Muslim outrage at the bombing at the soccer field in Iraq today? Or at any of a million other atrocities that have silently passed? The selective outrage and political posturing is clear as day!

Posted by: J | August 2, 2006 04:07 PM

Some web sites show photos of rescue workers digging these dead bodies out of a mound of dirt(...DIRT!!!) in the basement of the "collapsed" building. There was a mound of dirt, with some soft-ball sized peices of concrete mixed in it. If these childern were killed by the re-inforced concrete building having "collapsed" on them, why were they they shown being dug out of a mound of DIRT?
The photos showed a hole in the room's ceiling, proving the building was constructed of re-inforced concrete. The hole in the ceiling also proved that, since there was still a ceiling, the building had not "collapsed".
Also, not only was there no blood on any of the dead childern, but there was NO sign of any trauma. No punctures, no contusions, no broken bones, not even a bruise or a scrape! How did they die, malaria? I thought a re-inforced concrete building "collapsed" on them ?


Posted by: Rdx | August 2, 2006 04:08 PM

Many of you seem to use the argument that since Israel kills more people than Hezballah, that they are the "terrorists." How does that make any sense? Israeli military capability is far superior to the band of savages that make up Hezballah, and they will show that in order to take them out. What school of military thinking teaches that since your enemy just can't measure up to your ability, but continues to *purposely* attack civilians, that you should go easier on them? The point is to eliminate Hezballah as a threat, even while they hide amongst civilians for maximum carnage. Have any of you people whose hearts bleed for Hezballah scum ever thought about why we hold the Israelis to a higher standard? Maybe it is because their aim isn't to wantanly murder civilians, but when it happens, it is actually a tragedy. Hezballah AIMS for civilians and rejoices in the carnage, like the sadistic psychopaths they are. I am no fan of conspiracy theories, but I have zero problem assuming the worst of the subhumans who make up the Hezballah ranks. Israel isn't a perfect angel, but they don't make a habit of fighting dirty like the terrorist enemies they face. I also trust the transparency of Israeli society much more than I trust the compulsive lying, exxageration, and utter lack of objectivity that pervades Arab society as a whole. and Is there any reason why the world doesn't call for Hezballah restraint? Or why the world has come to expect the most vile behavior from its followers? Are we that cynical that we have become so accustomed to Islamic terrorist horrors, that we just shrug our shoulders? For all of you who glibly criticize Israel and the West for that matter, you should thank whatever deity you believe in that you live under the influence of the Western values system. Life according to Hezballah and other Islamic terror groups would be hell on earth for most of you. Israel is doing the dirty work for the rest of us, and is in the process fighting a battle for its own existence. Civilians are dying, yes. It is tragic, yes. But civilians die in wars, especially when fighting an enemy with no conscience.

Posted by: SC | August 2, 2006 04:10 PM

how did the dead rapidly develop rigor mortis?

by being dead for longer than portrayed.

Posted by: ams | August 2, 2006 04:10 PM

Maybe you should check the offical count from the Red Cross.

Posted by: Aliv | August 2, 2006 04:12 PM

To Thom

I recognize the paste\copy editing you made by copying the remark on Yesha from the lebanesebloggers.blogspot.com website. I will pose the same question I posed to the original writer of this comment, Mojgan, who still has not provided a reasonable explanation for it:

If you do believe that the Yesha Rabinical Council has such a hold on Israeli policy, then how do you explain last summer's disengagement from Gaza executed by Ariel Sharon? Yesha stands for "Judea, Someron and GAZA" and I assure you that they were not for that move one bit.

I am looking forward to your response on that. Hopefully you will have a little more guts than Mojgan who originally posted the comment and decided to shy away from a response due to a justifiable fear of adhering to a famous Jewish quote: It is better to be silent and be considered a fool, then speak and prove it".

Posted by: The Middle East News Addict | August 2, 2006 04:13 PM

With the invasion of Lebanon, both the IDF and Hizbollah will attempt to degrade each other to the best of their ability. However, i believe Qana, the destruction of a ten story apartment building, and southern Lebanon generally is an attempt to degrade the population that supports Hizbullah.
In his book the Iron Wall, Avi Shlaim quotes Moshe Dayan a supporter of the Policy of Reprisals. "As early as 1950 he defended at a meeting of the Mapai Secretariat and members of the Knesset the policy of collective punishment against Arab villages suspected of harboring infiltrators and saboteurs. Harassing the the village, including women, children, and elderly people, he said, " is the only method that has proved effective, not justified or moral, but effective, when Arabs lay mines on our side."
Certainly Southern Lebanon, in a general sense, supports Hizbollah. While Hizbullah may not have conducted operations out of all the communities bombed does not matter under the Policy of Reprisal. As supporters of Hizbullah, they qualified for an attack.
As a young major in the IDF, Ariel Sharon lead the reprisal massacre of the village of (K)Qibya in the 1953. He would later replace satchel charges with Bulldozers, hense his nickname. Unit 101, which he commanded in this and later operations resembled the Einsatzgruppen,without the ethnic cleansing aspect, used by the Germans in World War II.

Posted by: P. J. Casey | August 2, 2006 04:15 PM

What happened to "Thou Shalt Not Kill"? how can any Christian, Muslim or Jew kill in the name of religion - when they all acknowledge the old testament and the 10 commandments?

One this is for sure - No member of Hezbollah, the Israeli army, their leaders (or George Bush for that matter) is going to heaven, paradise or any other similar place. I hope they are all happy blowing each other up in hell for eternity.

Posted by: David P | August 2, 2006 04:18 PM

One of the saddest things about America today is how out of touch with any semblance of reality the average American is: Saddam attacked us on 9/11. He was in league with Al Qaida. We found WMD in Iraq. The people fighting the Iraqi Civil War have Topeka next on their terrorist agenda. Global warming is a hoax. Gays are out to ruin my marriage. The estate tax will apply to me. Israel can do no wrong.

That these lies are engineered, cultivated and propagated by the GOP and its media outlets is pretty obvious to any educated adult. What to do to get this country to wake up to the reality that the rest of the world sees is a more difficult question. I want my country to return to cognitive sanity, but am a loss as to the prescription. Any suggestions?

Posted by: B2O | August 2, 2006 04:19 PM

"APS,
AND where did you read that Jenin wasn't a massacre? "

From two of the most anti-Israel organizations out there - the UN and the BBC. Even they had to admit it. Here's the link.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2165272.stm

Posted by: APS | August 2, 2006 04:22 PM

Palestinians and Hizbollah always target civilians. Get it? They aim to kill women and children--non combatants. They are carrying on in the grand tradition of Arab militias such as the Janjaweed in Durfar targteting, killing, raping hundreds of thousands of helpless civilians--mostly women and children. In Iraq they target civilians at prayer in their houses of worship. Hizbollah rockets are not capable of being aimed at anything imparticular like the Nazi buzz bombs of WWII--so every rocket is aimed at a civilian. When you fly civilian airplanes into office towers whom are you targeting?
The Israeli's could wipe their enemies like Iran off the map in minutes; they could kill every person in Lebanon; they could target women and children all day everyday just like their Hammas and Hizbollah enemies. But they never do and they never will because they are civilized people facing some of the most barbaric fighters on the planet. Ask the Shiia in Iraq or the Africans in Darfur or the women in Arab countries such as Afghanistan who have been brutalized by their medieval laws and traditions. Israel is amazing for its restraint. If the U.S. was for years bombarded by suicide bombers and rockets from Cuba, how long would it take to wipe out the Cuban forces and who would tell the U.S. that the response is disproportinate.

Posted by: Mark | August 2, 2006 04:23 PM

Anon:

"theocratic islam versus western culture"

We have the same struggle here in this country. It's just that because conditions here are generally decent (rather than desperate) it does not usually take a violent form.

Our struggle is between theocratic pseudochristianity (the evolution deniers who choose the law of Leviticus over that of modern America) vs the liberal modernists who realize what century it is.

Posted by: B2O | August 2, 2006 04:26 PM

APS,
AND where did you read that Jenin wasn't a massacre? But I'm glad someone brought it up. Accumlating rage. What else didn't Israel do? Keep it up, keep it up.

Posted by: | August 2, 2006 04:30 PM

"I'm not saying I believe in this idea, but it wouldn't surprise me if Hezbollah staged the entire Qana tragedy. They knew exactly how the world would respond."

Change some of your words a little and you sound just like the conspiracy nuts who would blame 911 on the Jews.

I'm not saying I believe in this idea, but it wouldn't surprise me if Israel staged the entire 911 tragedy. They knew exactly how the world would respond. (i.e the anti- Muslim/Arab backlash we are still dealing with today).

The body count may change, but it still does not change the fact that Israel has been bombing indiscriminately and has killed 600 plus civilians, one third children.
There were always alternatives that could have been used by Israel to disarm Hizbullah but it decided to show off its military muscle in a sadistic display of collective punishment. The aim is not simply to degrade hizbullah's capabilities, it is to make an example out of Lebanon for those who do not play by Israel's rules and on their timetable.

Hizbullah could have been disarmed without resorting to this brutality.

Posted by: Zain | August 2, 2006 04:30 PM

I'm not saying I believe in this idea, but it wouldn't surprise me if Hezbollah staged the entire Qana tragedy. They knew exactly how the world would respond.

Remember - - - every death by the Israelis is a tragedy while every death by Hezbollah is a victory. Israel will get blamed either way.

I urge those of you who support Hezbollah to read up on how they routinely hide in hospitals, schools and mosques, putting innocent civilians in harm's way. That's not a conspiracy theory. It's the truth.

Posted by: SM | August 2, 2006 04:32 PM

"I'm not saying I believe in this idea, but it wouldn't surprise me if Hezbollah staged the entire Qana tragedy. They knew exactly how the world would respond."

Change some of your words a little and you sound just like the conspiracy nuts who would blame 911 on the Jews.

I'm not saying I believe in this idea, but it wouldn't surprise me if Israel staged the entire 911 tragedy. They knew exactly how the world would respond. (i.e the anti- Muslim/Arab backlash we are still dealing with today).

The body count may change, but it still does not change the fact that Israel has been bombing indiscriminately and has killed 600 plus civilians, one third children.
There were always alternatives that could have been used by Israel to disarm Hizbullah but it decided to show off its military muscle in a sadistic display of collective punishment. The aim is not simply to degrade hizbullah's capabilities, it is to make an example out of Lebanon for those who do not play by Israel's rules and on their timetable.

Hizbullah could have been disarmed without resorting to this brutality.

Posted by: Zain | August 2, 2006 04:34 PM

Hopefully, once this tragic stupidity is over, Israel/western world will be able to finance the recontruction of infrastructure and aid for Southern Lebanon. Help Lebanon and Palenstine authority to provide services to poor instead of allowing Syria and Iran perhaps even Venezuela to help provide it. They have all the oil money and a lot of hatred towards the west with a taste for power and greatness. "Whatever"

To allow them to continue to provide services in this area will be nothing more than start the problem over again.

Love God but hate religion...

"The path of the rightous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyrany of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is trully his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is "The Lord"( Shiva, Alah or whatever the name for God your religion provides),
when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

version of Ezekiel 25:17

Dont like to quote the bible but it I say it is a wise and rightous passage no matter what religion it comes from.

This problem is nothing more than the side effect of the poor who are in arms against a common enemy, as made out by local islamic governments and religious interests.

If the Lebanese and Palesting governments were able to provide to their poor and have prosperous economies with plenty of jobs to go around, these people will not have the time or will to engage in all this hatred and constant accusation of the Jews s the cause of their dispair.

Damn all the islamic extremists! damn all the populists such as JAJAGABOURAJAD or whatever the Iranian thug they have for presidents name is. Damn The Syrian presdent with his presumtious attitude of greatness and superiority. Damn Fidel Castro and HUgo Chavez.

And DAMN George Bush for being such an imbecil and ignorant.

Posted by: Anti Populist | August 2, 2006 04:38 PM

From Mendy:

"If I had the authoriy, I would have destroyed the entire village togehter with all its "innocent civillians".

Precisely why the only solution is for America to declare a war of annihilation against Israel while concommitantly rounding up every last Jew in America and giving them the Zyklon-B treatment.

And throw in every Evangelical, Rapture-loving Christian in the 'showers' with them.

A born-again Anti-Semite

Posted by: Chad | August 2, 2006 04:38 PM

To the guy addressing his comment to APS (sorry no better address, you posted no name). I have no idea where APS read that Jenin wasn't a massacre but I can tell you where I read it: In the UN report on the events in Jenin Section paragraph 43. You can get it out of the UN website. I do not remember the address but if you type Jenin in Wikipedia there is a direct link to it

Posted by: The Middle East News Addict | August 2, 2006 04:39 PM

Zain:

"When you talk about choosing between Israel and Lebanon, please do not leave out that Israel is a Jewish theocracy that does not afford the gentiles (non Jews) the same rights as Jews."

That's not entirely true. There are Christian Arabs and Druze who live peacefully side-by-side with Jews in Israel, especially in Haifa and other ares in the north. I'm sure you already know that the Druze serve in the Israeli army. This says a lot about the trust that Israel puts into these "gentiles." The Christian churches and areas of Jerusalam are open to everyone, tourists and residents alike. They are maintained well and given respect.
By the way, this was not the case during the period of 1948-1967 when Jews were not allowed access to their holy sites in Jerusalem. The area that Jews find so holy, the outer wall to the Second Temple, was desecrated by piles and piles of trash.

Posted by: SM | August 2, 2006 04:42 PM

Jefferson:

I have no doubt that people were killed in an Israeli airstrike. But you are structuring a straw man and knocking it down.

There are questions about these photos that you haven't bothered to ask, here.

And bloggers are right to ask them.

Posted by: saxyboy | August 2, 2006 04:53 PM

Mr. Morley -

With all due respect (since this is your blog)... I take offense at what you wrote.

"My question is: What is it about the photos from Qana that made Israel's supporters prefer fantasy to fact?"

There is nothing wrong with questioning what actually occurred at Qana. The Israeli army is conducting their own investigation, as is the entire world, for that matter. It's a known fact that Hezbollah and other such organizations routinely position themselves among civilian populations in schools, hospitals, mosques and apartment buildings. There could be a possibility that Hezbollah staged this tragedy, and it's worth analyzing.

Your opinions about this situation are obvious. Certainly, since it's your blog, you are entitled to express those opinions. I guess I just expect more from a Washington Post columnist. As a former student of journalism, I was always taught that the purpose of a newspaper was to report the news, not make it.

Posted by: SM | August 2, 2006 05:05 PM

Jefferson:

Human Rights Watch is reporting that the death tole at Qana was much less than reported (though it's still tragic any innocents were killed).

Are they buying into a fantasy, too, or is your eagerness to stand with critics of Israel going to block out that piece of information?

Posted by: saxyboy | August 2, 2006 05:16 PM

The Middle East, that eminently unique region where people of all religions come together to kill each other. Let us all repair to the Brookings Institution for a more tailored discussion on how to save the Doha round.

Posted by: Reynolds | August 2, 2006 05:21 PM

Whether Qana was orchestrated or not, it's sadly not the turning point of this war. Propaganda in all its forms is part of any war/military tatics. Just today and yesterday, PM Olmert said that hizbollah infrastructure has been cruched and then you see that 190 rockets were launched at Israel today, the most since the begining of this conflict, you just wonder if what PM Olmert said is true or not? Propaganda? and there is many more examples of "propaganda" on both side. However, if Qana was indeed stagged then it's propaganda to its extreme.

But the question that should be on anyone's mind is: what next? where is this war heading to? are the Israelis going to win? would Israel be able to crush to rubbles its own demon that she help gave birth to in 82?

Are the Israelis leaders that stupid to start a war that they knew they will not win?

Everyone before them failed: the French in Indonesia and Algeria, the Americans in Vietnam and Iraq... Who, here, can tell me, with a humble tone, that the Israelis will succeed? How?

Is this conflict just a reason to draw Syria and Iran in this mess? to give the US a reason to be involved as well?

I am confused

Posted by: ADP | August 2, 2006 05:32 PM

To The Middle East News Addict:

Two things:
1) The purpose for my post about the Rabbinical Council (follows below) was not to prove or disprove how much power the council has. In fact I couldn't care less how much power they have. The reason I posted it was to allow people in this country (and around the world) to see something they might not have otherwise seen regarding the mentality of a whole country who will slaughter innocent civilians, appologize for it, and then claim that "IN FACT THERE ARE NO INNOCENTS ON THE OTHER SIDE, ONLY WE HAVE CIVILIANS, SO KILL AWAY."


Yesha Rabbinical Council: During time of war, enemy has no innocents

The Yesha Rabbinical Council announced in response to an IDF attack in Kfar Qanna that "according to Jewish law, during a time of battle and war, there is no such term as 'innocents' of the enemy."

All of the discussions on Christian morality are weakening the spirit of the army and the nation and are costing us in the blood of our soldiers and civilians," the statement said. (Efrat Weiss)"

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283720,00.html

2) "decided to shy away from a response due to a justifiable fear of adhering to a famous Jewish quote: It is better to be silent and be considered a fool, then speak and prove it."

Talk about mangling a quote, and wrongfully attributing it! The quote is "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

Oh yeah, the famous Jew who started that proverb was Socrates. NOT A JEW!

Posted by: Thom | August 2, 2006 05:38 PM

Your questions can be answered very simply. The Mossad's (Israeli Secret Intelligence Services) central moto is:

"By way of deception we shall wage war"

Israeli's/Zionists are indeed masters of deception and propaganda. Those who fall for it are either gullible or stupid.

Whenever the IDF, Mossad, IAPAC, JINSA and their other minions in the U.S. open their mouths we should just tune out. They are all trained professional liars. The bloggosphere is just another Mossad front which does not not deserve the publicity or any amount of cyber space.

Posted by: Patricia | August 2, 2006 05:40 PM

Morley would be a lot more credible if (a) he'd acknowledge that the DOCUMENTED body count is 28; (b) that most of the questions raised have not been conspiracy theories that Qana didn't happen, but that some of the most dramatic photos were staged; (c) that the reason incredible conspiracy theories have gained some currency is that the Palestinians, in particular, have manufactured news before--see the phony "Jenin massacre" in which the body count went down from hundreds, or even thousand s of civilians, to 58, mostly terrorists. Instead, he takes the most extreme statements he could find, and creates a strawman.

Posted by: Deliotb | August 2, 2006 05:53 PM

How can you defend yourself against the obvious evidence presented by the Zionists. And you according to your enemy you are using your women and children as shields, but are you not fighting to protect them and their future.
You lovers of israel do you not wish for peace and prosperity with your neighbors or are you still enslaving the people with your insidious ways.
You both are strong people, Some of you even believe you have the same Patriarch, the same Father of a people. Is this not an example of the dueling brothers prebiblical story from ancient time before the land was traveresed by the parents of Abraham himself. This fight is still going on with neither side ever learning the lessons they were meant to teach. What of Isaac and his brother ishmael. The mother of isaac sentenced the mother and ishmael to death by demanding that they be driven into the wilderness to die, but your god saved her and built a nation from them!!! Has he not also built a nation from you???
And your continued squabbling like onto children who misbehave is at an end. Both of you need a time out and a spanking. Believe me your not the only ones. Now your dreams of conquest shall cease. Do you really want your children dead, your neighbors, your all brothers and sisters. Infantile naivety is no excuse to destroy eachother or us in the process and neither is a command from (whatever mental y disease d self-important leader)
I also live here on this planet and I would like my children to live in this place with peace prevailing.

Posted by: Questing | August 2, 2006 05:59 PM

It's good to see this finally emerge. Sites like seconddraft.org do show that Palestine uses the Western media strictly for it's own propaganda, and Hezbollah is no different.

I would not doubt that Hezbollah took a group of children, put them in a building, and blew it up, blaming Israel afterwards. They are murderers, and they have no qualms with using the media to win over opinion. I feel sorry for the children whose lives were ended for such a evil and fascist ideology.

Posted by: Matt | August 2, 2006 06:01 PM

I find many of you posters that write hateful statements like "zionist propaganda" disgusting. You Jew haters are so jealous of Jews and love terrorists. I guess I should have let them kill your baby as my child was killed by muslims - shot in the head - because they THOUGHT we were Jews.

You all sicken me. When I read comments like this - I just wish it was your child - not mine - that suffered and died for hate by people like you. But one never knows, it could be you that are the next victim of Islamofascism hate!

Posted by: Jack Henderson | August 2, 2006 06:05 PM

I saw a survior on the news say the bombs hit at between 12:00 and 1:00am.

Posted by: Neil Nelson | August 2, 2006 06:06 PM

From Dick Johnson:

"Perhaps the question most justly directed at Mr. Morley, and the little Hitler, Angus, and others like him, is: what is it about Jews that makes you so angry when they defend themselves?"

So Mr Johnson - so I am I am a "little Hitler" because I dare to criticise the israeli government and its zionist attack dogs -

As for defending themselves that is laughable - there is a term for it in the law whereby if someone attacks me I can use reasonable force to defend myself - but there is a point at which I cannot continue under penalty of breaking the law - any other government in the world would have been censured and its leaders charged with war crimes had they committed some of the barbaric acts of revenge perpetrated by various israeli governments over the past 40 years or so.

If you read some of my posts from other blogs I am critical of HB - as I have said many times that any one who sends another to blow up children - or rains missiles down on civilians is a worthless piece of sh*t - does this exonerate israel - NO!! The fact is that israel seems to kill civilians with far greater efficacy than any other group in the area - the HUGE problem I have with it is how you and your ilk come out and defend them - in fact you seem to feel that these are acts of great morality.... Bovine excrement....they are just as bad if not worse as this is state sanctioned terror and murder.

I note with interest your constant referrals to G-d and Christianity - so while you are such a good friend to the Israeli's now - what are your plans for those Jewish Israelis who will not convert to Christianity after the "end of days".

Personally I dont particularly want to share any afterlife with people like dershowitz and schumer and I suspect I won't have too.

And to finish I believe this is a quote (paraphrase) from Jesus which you may wish to remember.

"Whatsover you do to the least of my Children you do unto me"

Posted by: Angus | August 2, 2006 06:12 PM

Yeah, sounds like evil Israel started this conflict so it can kill some innocent Lebanese.

Posted by: Truth | August 2, 2006 06:16 PM

For your viewing pleasure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HlaVpqUXF0

What does everything think of this?

Posted by: SM | August 2, 2006 06:23 PM

Please tell me what everyone things of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HlaVpqUXF0

Posted by: SM | August 2, 2006 06:24 PM

Ah, yes, Dershowitz, that vile propagandist who promotes torture, makes excuses for Israeli crimes against humanity and still has the gall to call himself a human-rights lawyer.

This man belongs behind bars, not at Harvard.

That anyone still listens to him is beyond me.

Posted by: Wilson | August 2, 2006 07:07 PM

"Richard Johnson" asks: "what is it about Jews that makes you so angry when they defend themselves?:
Answer: Nothing. What makes me, and the rest of the world, very angry indeed is when Israel goes far beyond defending itself and instead massacres innocents by the hundreds, flattens villages and commits countless other atrocities that have absolutely NOTHING to do with self-defense.

Posted by: Tony | August 2, 2006 07:12 PM

Israel blocks 2 Belgian planes carrying medical aid to land on Lebanon's own airport in Beirut:

http://english.people.com.cn/200608/01/eng20060801_288693.html

Posted by: Karim | August 2, 2006 07:15 PM

I don't know the author purposely write this article or he is unknowingly fall into pro-israeli media proproganda. Actually this is exactly same as at Sunday TV talk show claimed by an attendend. Did you do any of independent investigation? This is incredible.

Looks, I immigrated to U.S from China. I am used to hate biased news report. Now I am really disapointed. I don't know if you have watch the video study about Pro-israeli influnce US media to shape American public opinion. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696&q=propoganda+israel

This video interviewed a lot of scholars, even some people of Jewish peace movement revealed how Pro-Israeli lobby effect the US media.

Posted by: Zhou Zihuai | August 2, 2006 07:16 PM

The world has gone mad, and stupid!

The media and people in the West side with terrorists who specifically target civilian populations, shooting 1900 missiles into Israeli population centers so far, bombs packed with ball bearings and fragmented metal for maximum body damage, and go against Israel who just wants to be left alone, and now trying to defend itself from such atrocities, and while doing so, conscientiously trying to minimise civilian deaths on the terrorists' side.

Where have our sense of morality gone? Why are we supporting the terrorist and blaming the victim for defending herself? Why are we allowing ourselves, stupidly, to become mouthpieces for these terrorists' propaganda and con jobs. It is clear as day that they do not care for their own civilians. They are actively trying to increase their civilian deaths, for propaganda, by drawing fire to these peoples' residences by firing from their midst, and not allowing them to leave when leafletted by the Israelis. They also attack in civilian clothes -- when these terrorists are killed, they say you've killed another civilian.

It seems like a madness in the Western mind, siding with the criminals and blaming the victims. Mad and stupid.

Posted by: emi | August 2, 2006 07:29 PM

This article is the worst I have seen. I am amazing how Pro-Israeli propogada machine works. They can shape public opinion here, and further drag US into undefendable war. We already paid price 9/11 what those people what to do?

See a very informative document video for youself, you will know how Pro-Israeli propoganda at work in America.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696&q=propoganda+israel

Posted by: | August 2, 2006 07:34 PM

QUOTE: Added: Saturday, 29 July, 2006, 12:14 GMT 13:14 UK
I fully support Israel's actions in Gaza and Lebanon. As for the civilian casualties, you cant make an omlette without breaking a few eggs. If nothing else, it serves as a warning to anyone else who thinks about attacking us. Behatzlacha Israel!
Gavri, Tel Rumeida, Israel
RECOMMEND
Recommended by 719 people END QUOTE

The above I snapped from the BBC this pm. Truly discusting how Israel thinks about innocent people they just murdered. And we in the Western World still don't understand why Israelis are getting killed by suizide bombers, etc. Israel just doesn't belong there.

Posted by: Anagadir | August 2, 2006 07:52 PM

SC:

"the point is that there is a difference of intent in the bombing between the two countries"

Ahh... so as long as I say that I am not trying to kill civilians, it is ok for me to do so. That is exactly what Israel is doing. These are not isolated incidents that you could excuse away (such as those committed by U.S forces in Iraq), these are civilian deaths that are happening every single day! Families wiped out, children decapitated. Your reasoning is flawed.

The U.S military (while not perfect) has shown an excellent example of restraint while hunting down terrorists in a civilian population. The British Army faced a similar situation in Northern Ireland, but instead of leveling Dublin, and creating more enemies, they chose patience and eventually a political solution.

It had barely been a year since Syria left Lebanon. There was a ground swell of support for anti Syrian politicians and that would have eventually translated to sentiment against Hizbullah and its disarmament. The fact that in the beginning of the conflict Arab leaders and ordinary Lebanese were criticizing Hizbullah is fair indication that they were losing popular support, within Lebanon and outside. Israel could have used several diplomatic channels to convey that the process of disarming Hizbullah needed to be accelerated. The Lebanese government would have sided with Israel in trying to recover the soldiers. Israel, as has been its wont, never gave diplomacy a chance. It decided to show off its military might in a sadistic display of collective punishment while telling the Lebanese that it was to help them. Lebanese criticism for Hizbullah is all but gone, Arab criticism outside of Lebanon is gone, no matter what the ending of this conflict, Hizbullah will emerge with its reputation enhanced and Israel will have planted seeds of hatred against it in another generation.

To pro-Israeli supporters;

1. Why was there no attempt made to resolve this diplomatically with a Lebanese government (and public) that had just thrown off the shackles of Syrian interference and would have therefore not looked too kindly upon Hizbullah (as a Syrian and Iranian supported organization).
2. Why were surgical strikes against Hizbullah leadership not considered first?
3. Why react with such fury at the kidnappings of the two soldiers when Israel itself had shown a willingness to negotiate prisoner swaps on such terms before?
4.
Nasrullah was correct in saying that Israel was changing the rules of the game. Israel had no qualms about conducting airspace violations and assassinations in Lebanes and Syrian territory, but cried "sovereignty violation" when its own "rules" went against it.
.

Posted by: Zain | August 2, 2006 07:52 PM

SC:

"the point is that there is a difference of intent in the bombing between the two countries"

Ahh... so as long as I say that I am not trying to kill civilians, it is ok for me to do so. That is exactly what Israel is doing. These are not isolated incidents that you could excuse away (such as those committed by U.S forces in Iraq), these are civilian deaths that are happening every single day! Families wiped out, children decapitated. Your reasoning is flawed.

The U.S military (while not perfect) has shown an excellent example of restraint while hunting down terrorists in a civilian population. The British Army faced a similar situation in Northern Ireland, but instead of leveling Dublin, and creating more enemies, they chose patience and eventually a political solution.

It had barely been a year since Syria left Lebanon. There was a ground swell of support for anti Syrian politicians and that would have eventually translated to sentiment against Hizbullah and its disarmament. The fact that in the beginning of the conflict Arab leaders and ordinary Lebanese were criticizing Hizbullah is fair indication that they were losing popular support, within Lebanon and outside. Israel could have used several diplomatic channels to convey that the process of disarming Hizbullah needed to be accelerated. The Lebanes government would have sided with Israel in trying to recover the soldiers. Israel, as has been its wont, never gave diplomacy a chance. It decided to show off its military might in a sadistic display of collective punishment while telling the Lebanese that it was to help them. Lebanese criticism for Hizbullah is all but gone, Arab criticism outside of Lebanon is gone, no matter what the ending of this conflict, Hizbullah will emerge with its reputation enhanced and Israel will have planted seeds of hatred against it in another generation.

To pro-Israeli supporters;

1. Why was there no attempt made to resolve this diplomatically with a Lebanese government (and public) that had just thrown off the shackles of Syrian interference and would have therefore not looked too kindly upon Hizbullah (as a Syrian and Iranian supported organization).
2. Why were surgical strikes against Hizbullah leadership not considered first?
3. Why react with such fury at the kidnappings of the two soldiers when Israel itself had shown a willingness to negotiate prisoner swaps on such terms before?

Nasrullah was correct in saying that Israel was changing the rules of the game. Israel had no qualms about conducting airspace violations and assassinations in Lebanes and Syrian territory, but cried "sovereignty violation" when its own "rules" went against it.

Posted by: Zain | August 2, 2006 07:55 PM

Emi - I agree with you wholeheartedly. There is some sort of psychological self-loathing phenomenon at work here, when people willfully ignore the difference between savage murder (Hezballah) and self-defense and painstaking effort to target criminals (Israel). The problem is that some people want to assume that we are dealing with people who have the same values as we do, and who are as civilized as we are, when, sadly, this is not the case. Go ahead and call me racist. I don't really care, because that word has somehow lost its meaning when thrown around to shut up anyone who doesn't drag the PC, multi-culti party line. We hold Israel to a higher standard because we know that they are not the kind of bloodthirsty barbarians who think nothing of throwing children in harm's way in order to look like the victim. Have any of you no condemnation for the vile people who do that? Try and think logically for a second. When bombs rain down on you from an enemy who was supposed to be disarmed by the international community, i.e. UN, and they continue to come down, all the while there are UN "observers" doing nothing, why in God's name should you sit back and not do anything about it? Because your enemy has no conscience and routinely uses human shields, that should cause you to stop taking action? Is it really your responsibility that your enemy doesn't care at all for humanity? That is suicidal, and against all human instincts of self-preservation. The UN has proven impotent and useless in the Middle East, by issuing resolutions and "strongly worded statements," but having no way of backing them up. I wouldn't rely on them for anything. Hezballah terrorists initiated this fight, and now are using the stupidity and naivete of the world community to try and make themselves look like victims. It is pathetic and stupid that so many of you would fall for that.
It is horrible that civilians are dying, but they are dying as a direct result of Hezballah and its disgusting leaders who couldn't care less about civilian casualties.

Posted by: SC | August 2, 2006 08:12 PM

A name changers wrote:

"Thanks to hateful idiots like Angus the israeli point of view will always triumph in the US.

Posted by: Concerned | August 2, 2006 02:25 PM "

You think your pov prevails - I think not -Israels slow genocide of the Palestinians and its destruction of lebanon is evident, We're tired of supporting you with our tax dollars.

Posted by: Angus | August 2, 2006 08:19 PM

"bombs packed with ball bearings and fragmented metal for maximum body damage"

what are the israeli bombs composed of - cotton candy and feathers?

Posted by: SayWhat | August 2, 2006 08:21 PM

To those who have a hard time believing the Qana massacre took place,

I would ask you to look at the quotes that are in the Buchanan piece near the top of this forum.
Here they are again:

"Everyone in southern Lebanon is a terrorist and is connected to Hezbollah," roared Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon on July 27.

"Every village from which a Katyusha is fired must be destroyed," bellowed an Israeli general in the Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth.

"One who goes to sleep with rockets shouldn't be surprised if he doesn't wake up in the morning," said Israel's ambassador to the United Nations, Dan Gillerman.

These are the stated views of Israeli officials and military people. Are we not to take them at their word? Why exactly is it hard to accept that they simply did just as they said they would do in Qana?

The documented civilian causalities are already at a 30 to 1 ration, just because the Israelis killed 57 of them (37 children included) at one time seems less the point than that they would wage a campaign such as this at all. It seems highly likely that this will happen again.

I suppose the reason that you want to deny that the men quoted above are simply making good on their promise is because the thought of having the blood of so many innocent children and other innocent civilians on your hands (they are on the hands of any Israeli or American who supports a war fought this way) is sickening to any normal person. It is a sign that despite your desire to back this monstrous campaign, your conscience simply cannot accept the consequences that the Israeli officials and Military leaders have set about to create.

If you dispute the veracity of the statements quoted above, then say so, although they come directly from Israeli publications. Otherwise, why not simply accept the truth that they obviously imply?


J


Posted by: J | August 2, 2006 08:38 PM

J-
I don't think anyone denies that the Qana massacre took place. Israel has acknowledged it and has offered deep regrets. Israel is doing a full investigation into what happened.

What's at dispute here is whether or not the people in that building were placed there by Hezbollah. It's not hard to believe based on their previously documented tactics.

Of course, it's a horrible tragedy when innocent people, ESPECIALLY children, are killed. Did Hezbollah do an investigation into the two ARAB brothers who were killed last week in Qana? No, there was a hastily sent apology and then it was business as usual. There are plenty of Christian Arabs and Druze living in the northern part of Israel. Do you see Hezbollah concerned about their thousands of rockets hitting those people?

Is it so incomprehensible to believe that a group that is so consumed with killing wouldn't actually sacrifice a few people so Israel could take the blame? It's certainly a possibility.

Please take a look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HlaVpqUXF0

Posted by: SM | August 2, 2006 08:50 PM

Hezbollah, the Party of Allah, is an Islamic Fascit organization. Islamic Fascism is by far the gravest threat to the West.

Unless you're muslim who thinks everyone else should be a muslim too you should support the destruction of Hezbollah.

Posted by: Destroy Hezbollah | August 2, 2006 08:56 PM

Sound the moral equivalency alarms!! While the loss of life among Lebanese civilians is no less tragic than the loss among Israelis, the point is that there is a difference of intent in the bombing between the two countries. Hezballah aims to kill, kill, kill as many civilians and innocent non-combatants as possible. Israel aims to pinpoint Hezballah targets, and even warns civilians of impending attacks. Can any of you see the difference? What Hezballah does to Lebanese civilians is not the problem or fault of Israel. Why are so many of you willfully ignoring that? Do you people not realize that if, collectively, the Arab world decided to stop the worn-out and self-defeating loathing of Israel, Jews, Zionists, blah blah, etc., that there would finally be peace between them & Israel? There would be also the chance for a Palestinian state. However, here's the crux of the matter. If Israel bowed down to the ignorance of "world opinion," and laid down their arms, there would be no more Israel. The Arab world does not wish to coexist with Israel. They don't want any part of our Western ideal of "peaceful coexistance between people of different faiths and ethnicities." For God's sake, morality police pervade certain Muslim societies, where people, mostly women, are treated like children on a daily basis, or murdered for having been raped. You can get arrested for having a Bible in Saudi Arabia. Muslim children are taught in schools to hate Jews and that they are the sons of apes and pigs. And we expect Israelis to surrender to this type of depravity? By the way, Angus, there is no "genocide" taking place by Israelis. If anyone is committing genocide against Arabs, it's Arabs, who find new reasons to kill each other every day. Stop glibly trying to make a statement by saying something that cannot be proven. I've read so many of your posts, and you appear to lack the ability to remain objective and focused. You are always trying to appeal to emotion rather than reason, and your use of tired and insipid PC rhetoric is quite boring and predictable. Just my two cents!

Posted by: SC | August 2, 2006 09:01 PM

sc wrote:

"Israel has acknowledged it and has offered deep regrets. Israel is doing a full investigation into what happened."

a full investigation that only involves israelis - hmm I wonder what there conclusion will be!!

Posted by: Angus | August 2, 2006 09:36 PM

Just quote from another post, end of discussion -- Israeli amry murdered the people, that is what they want to do.

"Everyone in southern Lebanon is a terrorist and is connected to Hezbollah," roared Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon on July 27.

"Every village from which a Katyusha is fired must be destroyed," bellowed an Israeli general in the Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth.

"One who goes to sleep with rockets shouldn't be surprised if he doesn't wake up in the morning," said Israel's ambassador to the United Nations, Dan Gillerman.

ZZ

Posted by: | August 2, 2006 09:49 PM

"And we expect Israelis to surrender to this type of depravity? By the way, Angus, there is no "genocide" taking place by Israelis. If anyone is committing genocide against Arabs, it's Arabs, who find new reasons to kill each other every day. Stop glibly trying to make a statement by saying something that cannot be proven. I've read so many of your posts, and you appear to lack the ability to remain objective and focused. You are always trying to appeal to emotion rather than reason, and your use of tired and insipid PC rhetoric is quite boring and predictable. Just my two cents!"

Great debunk sc (shumer,charles?) - so why can't I have my two cents? In my less than humble opinion the Israeli treatment of Palestinians for nearly 60 years has amounted to a slow genocide, killing hopes, dreams, children and any chance of a normal life.....

As for PC insipid rhetoric how about yours ..."While the loss of life among Lebanese civilians is no less tragic than the loss among Israelis "...of course this is followed by a long rant using "reason" to explain why all the dead civilians should be laid at the feet of hb and not the bomb droppers....


And more of your tirade..."I've read so many of your posts, and you appear to lack the ability to remain objective and focused. "............hello pot to kettle ..pot to kettle...


So if you don't like my posts don't read them - trust me I won't lose any sleep - but as long as you are using my tax dollars to support illegal settlements and as long as our government is held captive by groups like AIPAC I WILL have an opinion.

Posted by: Angus | August 2, 2006 09:52 PM

SC and SM,

You are still evading the point I am trying to make. Hezbollah is incapable of doing the type of damage that israel is capable of. Israel has killed civilians at a ratio of 30 to 1. Two thirds of the casualties caused by Hezbollah are Israeli Military. Israel's cities are relatively unharmed. their population is relatively safe. business and life in most of the country is going on as usual. Lebanon is in shambles and will take many years to recover. Before this is over, thousands may have died, and yet, as has already been admitted by Israel, the goal of wiping out Hezbollah, given at first as a very lame rationalization of this brutal campaign, is impossible. In fact, it could be asserted that with an 87% approval rate in Lebanon, way up from before the war, that Israel has caused hezbollah to prosper in both recruits and funding from sympathetic countries throughout the ME, and hardened the hearts of many more lebanese people against Israel.

So the question remains; The Israelis are doing just as they promised they would, that is, punishing the poeple of lebanon brutally just as they very explicitly promised that they would. What is the point of arguing about Qana when the entire campaign is an Ill conceived fiasco that will accomplish little else than further inciting radicalism and terrorism pointed at Israel and the US?

Could it be that Israel is deperatley trying to inspire the WWIII that FOX commentators constantly imply is now starting? could they see this as their last ditch effort to Ispire a war which would serve their interests completely (at least in the minds of the Radical nutjob settler movement type that run AIPAC and the portion of the Likud that remains in teh Knesset) While costing the US more than it ever should be asked to bear for such a lousy cause?

Certainly, if you want o illicit a really awful response from radicals and other symathizers, the best method to use would be something so over the top and unjustified that it is almost certain to get a response which would serve as pretext for a greater war with regional powers in the ME.

Finally, SC, if you read these forums carefully, you will see that Angus provides a great deal of factual information with sources for his info with just about every one of his posts. If your going to complain about his POV, why not have the guts to actually bring up an actual fact he has stated and take issue with it based on other facts you bring to the table rather than just attempting to discredit him through baseless implication? I suppose that is a great deal more difficult to do, though, isn't it.

J

P.S.

Stop the Bombing, tear down the wall, raze the settlements, end the occupation and watch the violence in the ME trail off to almost nothing.

Posted by: J | August 2, 2006 09:53 PM

Well, Israelis accept it was a mistake. Stop trying to twist and decit the world.

Israelis are behaving 10 times more cruel than helpless hezbollah. What do you expect? Hezbollah to stand on open field infront of apache helicopter?

Their only defense is hiding behind building against this massive force and weapons supplied by america.

I see blood on the hands on america in qana massacre.

I know it is a war. There are lots of people going to be killed.

What i don't agree is Israelis are intend on killing civilians to make them flee and occupy the empty land.

That is pure evil.

I don't buy the idea of Hezbollah are terrorists or hamas are terrorists no longer.

I believe they are foighting the occupation adn illegal raids against them by evil israelis.

It is pity there is not one soul in america dare to critcize Israel. What a pity.

America has gone down to lowest level.

It lost its moral leadership. What we go here an idiot who can be manipulated by evil jews.

I know not all jews are evil but there are some section of jews who are gaining power that will eventually destroy humanity.

Posted by: Alex | August 2, 2006 09:55 PM

See how Pro-Israeli properganda machine here (in US) at works:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696&q=propoganda+israel

Some of intervewer are actually Jewish peace movement people. So there are still many noble, good Jewish people!!

- ZZ, A Chinese American

Posted by: Zhou Zihuai | August 2, 2006 10:00 PM

To J,

Great post! you said very well.

I agree Israeli try to draq US into this conflict further. I hated to see their lobby here to hijact American interest for their purpose. Why we have 9/11? we (US goverment) are biggest sucker to have pay our tax money to finiance their brutallity and then take hit for them!

-ZZ, A Chinese American

Posted by: Zhou Zihuai | August 2, 2006 10:16 PM

Jefferson Morley and Mel Gibson, separated at birth?

Posted by: Jimmy | August 2, 2006 10:28 PM

The thing I find interesting is this. Only some people from both sides want peace. And only some people from both sides want the destruction of the other. One side, has puny rockets that barely do any killing but kill civilians nonetheless. The other side has an advanced military that says it is not targeting civilians but innocent civilians are being killed nonetheless.
Is it convinient that israel looks like it is always defending itself against the evil terrorists. Yes or No?
These terrorists in the area are fighting against an ocupying force. Is israel an occupying force in the area? Does isreal hold the keys of peace? I am uncertain as to the impulse of isrealy will. Are they still trying to overcome the cannanites and take the land away from the ancient land holders before it was promised to them by (...). Does israel really want peacefull coexistance? It's been about 50 years since this new israel was created by a world community body did they ask the previous inhabitants whether or not they wanted them there as neighbors? And regardless of that they are there. So it is any wonder that those who lived there before feel like they've been cheated. Sure some jews came in and bought land but c'mon this is rediculous. I understand that a people want to call aplace there own but it was someone elses. Nowonder the palestinians knows that the israelis are threatining them and there homeland, well they no longer can go home can they. The point to this little rambling is that the place now called israel and palestine should be combined with a new name and new flag. The people displaced by aggresion should have their homes returned to them and their jobs and so forth, there is no true reason why these two peoples should not live peacably together. Remember that extremists do not catagoricaly represent their people as a whole. You should be good to eachother. I know you cannot disregard history but for a moment can you realize the truth that you must live together or you can live in a prison of your own making, with high walls, barbed wire, and guard towers.

Posted by: Questing | August 2, 2006 10:32 PM

I think you've got the so-called conspiracy wrong. Or, at least, you missed the more interesting version? It goes like this: Hezbollah brought the live kids as hostages to the building etc etc and then fired rockets from that same residential apt bldg, well the roof. Israel retaliates and voila, many dead Lebanese children and a PR nightmare for Israel. Is anybody here talking about THAT?

Posted by: Zora | August 2, 2006 10:39 PM

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer in the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John 8:44

I'm not a Christian. Mel Gibson "speaketh" of "the house of Israel." But Mel Gibson was far too polite. Seems that Christ knew the truth about the Zionists long ago.

Posted by: Dave | August 2, 2006 10:43 PM

I really have a great deal of admiration and respect for this guy Jonathan Tasini!

Check out this article where he lays the blame for the US complicity in this massacre right where it belongs (at least in part), right at Hillary's feet!

"Hillary Clinton's primary opponent lashed out at the senator over Israel yesterday, blaming the deaths of 37 children in Qana on her refusal to push for a ceasefire.
"She, and a broad segment of our political leadership, bear responsibility for the deaths ofthese children," Democrat Jonathan Tasini said in a statement. The youngsters were among about 60 civilians killed in Israel's weekend strike on the southern Lebanese town of Qana.

"Rather than call for restraint, Hillary Clinton stopped just short of declaring, 'Let the bombs fall.'"

Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson called Tasini's statement "outrageous and beyond the pale" but didn't engage further.

In intensely personal terms, Tasini, who is Jewish and has lived in Israel, also branded Clinton a pandering chicken hawk.

"I know what it is like to sit in a bomb shelter or touch the body of a person killed by war," Tasini said.

He said his father fought in the Jewish underground that helped found Israel in the 1940s, a cousin was killed in the 1973 war and an elderly relative was axed to death by a Palestinian while sitting on a park bench.

"Has Hillary Clinton or other so-called 'friends of Israel,' who have cheered for armed conflict and death and destruction, ever spent one night in fear from war or sobbing in sorrow because of the death of a loved one in war?" he asked. "For them, it is all about political calculations, pandering and votes."

Tasini, a former president of the National Writers Union, has been struggling to gain traction against his monumentally better known and better funded opponent.

Clinton has ignored his attempts to get her to agree to a League of Women Voters debate Sept. 6 ahead of the Sept. 12 primary. "

That just about says it all.

J

Posted by: J | August 2, 2006 10:48 PM

To Questing,

"[QUOTE]...The point to this little rambling is that the place now called israel and palestine should be combined with a new name and new flag. .."

You are right on! That is the key. We always heard claim Israeli is only modern democrate country in ME w/ western value. But in fact, it is ruthless racist goverment in the whole world. If they think they peace loving why not let refuge go back their home live togather AMONG them.

The truth is if that way the demogrphics will be minority, they can not keep the Jewish identity any more. AND it is why they pull back from Gaza and West Bank settlement, because even without palistan refuge, due to own higher birth rate of their own Arab Israeli, Jewish people will be minority after some 50 years!

-ZZ, A Chinese American

P.S. I'm not a Muslin, I don't hate Jewish people, but the Israeli goverment, and those lobbist, who try drag US in for their unjusted cause.

Posted by: Zhou Zihuai | August 2, 2006 11:04 PM

Some of the posters on this thread claim:


"how did the dead rapidly develop rigor mortis?

by being dead for longer than portrayed.

Posted by: ams | August 2, 2006 04:10 PM

Maybe you should check the offical count from the Red Cross.

Posted by: Aliv | August 2, 2006 04:12 PM

From APS: I used to gullibly believe the Arab claims, but then I read about the JENIN "MASSACRE". I remember Arab leaders like Saab Erekat trying to spin the lie that hundreds upon hundreds of Palestinians had been wantonly "massacred" in the city of Jenin.

But it turned out to be a complete falsehood. It turned out that maybe 50 people had been killed during warfare."

The following excerpt is from Wikipedia regarding Auschwitz:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz

For many years, a memorial plaque placed at the camp by the Soviet authorities stated that 4 million people had been murdered at Auschwitz. The Polish communist government also supported this figure. In the west, this figure was accepted, but some historians had their doubts.[6][7] After the collapse of the Communist government in 1989, the plaque was removed and the official death toll given as 1.1 million. Holocaust deniers have attempted to use this change as propaganda, in the words of Nizkor: "Deniers often use the 'Four Million Variant' as a stepping stone to leap from an apparent contradiction to the idea that the Holocaust was a hoax, again perpetrated by a conspiracy. They hope to discredit historians by making them seem inconsistent.

So the Holocaust never happened??????

Shame on YOU and the holocaust deniers for denying truth and human tragedy.

Posted by: RB | August 2, 2006 11:05 PM

For anyone who is not convinced that Hillary Clinton is not just as prepared to bring us into WWIII as any of the current administration, check out this article.

She lays the groundwork for the road towards war with Iran, syria, and anyone else that gets in Israel's way.

I'm just curious how she's going to break it to the people of the US that "we need your children to fight for the Israeli setter movement". I pray I never live to see it.


BUFFALO, NY (2006-08-01) While visiting Western New York on Monday, United States Senator Hillary Clinton weighed in on the rising crisis in the Mid-East.

Senator Clinton described the conflict as a tragic situation that will require an international effort to reach an agreement.

But she was emphatic that the United States needs to take the lead in protecting Israel from what she called ruthless, unprovoked attacks by Hezbollah.

She said reaching such an agreement would require good faith from all parties. But she acknowledges that is a problem since Syria and Iran have a different agenda.

And Clinton called Hezbollah the instrument of that agenda.

Senator Clinton said Hezbollah must be disarmed. And, despite other military commitments, Clinton said the United States can not shy away from the job.

Clinton also spoke without hesitation on other matters of national policy, ranging from trade issues to health care.

But the Senator dodged a question about whether or not she would complete a second term if re-elected. She said right now her focus is reaching out to voters for the November Senate campaign.

Click the "listen" icon above to hear Joyce Kryszak's story now or use your podcasting software to download it to your computer or iPod.

© Copyright 2006, WBFO

Posted by: J | August 2, 2006 11:25 PM

Some of the posters on this thread claim:


"how did the dead rapidly develop rigor mortis?

by being dead for longer than portrayed.

Posted by: ams | August 2, 2006 04:10 PM

From APS: I used to gullibly believe the Arab claims, but then I read about the JENIN "MASSACRE". I remember Arab leaders like Saab Erekat trying to spin the lie that hundreds upon hundreds of Palestinians had been wantonly "massacred" in the city of Jenin.

But it turned out to be a complete falsehood. It turned out that maybe 50 people had been killed during warfare."

The following excerpt is from Wikipedia on Auschwitz:

For many years, a memorial plaque placed at the camp by the Soviet authorities stated that 4 million people had been murdered at Auschwitz. The Polish communist government also supported this figure. In the west, this figure was accepted, but some historians had their doubts.[6][7] After the collapse of the Communist government in 1989, the plaque was removed and the official death toll given as 1.1 million. Holocaust deniers have attempted to use this change as propaganda, in the words of Nizkor: "Deniers often use the 'Four Million Variant' as a stepping stone to leap from an apparent contradiction to the idea that the Holocaust was a hoax, again perpetrated by a conspiracy. They hope to discredit historians by making them seem inconsistent.


So the Holocaust never happened because the number MURDERED was reduced from 4Mil to 1.1M?????

So we don't have pictures of 6 MILLION murdered at the hand of the Nazis - does that give us license to deny this despicable atrocity?


Shame on YOU and the holocaust deniers for denying the truth and human tragedy.

Posted by: RB | August 2, 2006 11:25 PM

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the truth

http://www.ussliberty.org/

from US Navy veterans.

With every massacre, more people all over the world are opening their eyes...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by: Benoit Breton | August 2, 2006 11:36 PM

"That question has been definitively answered in the mainstream press."

Not quite, Mr. Morley. The news services and press organizations need to publish the EXIF files for the photos published to definitively answer the questions of their "orchestrating false photo opportunities".

The "mainstream press" is not trustworthy anymore. You are not trustworthy any more.

By the way, an Israeli bomb is a "What" not a "Who".

Posted by: Dusty | August 2, 2006 11:37 PM

moshiach is on the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: sammy | August 2, 2006 11:42 PM

The Executive Branch of the United States Government undertook no further review
of the attack. Similarly, the United States Congress has never investigated the attack, making it the only attack on a United States Navy ship, involving significant loss of life, that has not been so investigated. Compounding the harm done to survivors was the task given to them to bring all human remains and classified materials out of the research spaces that had been destroyed
by the torpedo explosion.

The survivors assigned to this task were further traumatized by having to secure the remains of their shipmates, men they knew and had lived and worked with.

In the years that followed the attack, almost all of the evidence pertaining to the attack remained, inexplicably, highly classified. Starting in the late 1970s, heavily redacted documents began to be released as a result of FOIA requests. To this day, many USS Liberty related documents, including the CIA report referenced by Director
Helms, remain classified.

A number of individuals and groups, some directly in the employ of the Israeli government,
others self-appointed, have attempted to convince the public that the attack on
USS Liberty was but an "innocent mistake."51 In furtherance of this goal they have fabricated and repeated demonstrably false allegations - the most notable fabrication being
that there have been "thirteen official investigations (including five Congressional investigations)"
- all of which concluded that the attack was a "tragic error." These allegations
are wholly and demonstrably false.Worse, in some instances, deliberately falsified
evidence has been proffered in support of this argument.

As a result of the public relations campaign undertaken on behalf of Israel, the USS Liberty survivors have been vilified for their assertions that the attack was deliberate and for their ongoing quest for justice. They are characterized as "neo-Nazis", "anti-
Semites", and "conspiracy theorists" for wanting nothing more than an honest, open i nvestigation of the attack on their ship and themselves.

Posted by: Does this seem familiar? | August 2, 2006 11:50 PM

dead muslim children=okay

dead jewish children=tradgedy

same thing as dead Irish Catholic children=okay

Dead Irish Protestants/English=tragedy.

All of America doesn't think it's okay to kill women and children.

Posted by: | August 2, 2006 11:56 PM

As a conservative Christian, I am just sick to my stomach that Israel-firsters would stoop to such a disgraceful level.
It is beyond my comprehension that any decent human being, on either side of the aisle, in any country, would not be completely outraged and sickened by this filthy propaganda.

Posted by: Cindy | August 3, 2006 12:11 AM

As America sleeps, Asia is awake, and eventually Europe will awaken. Good day and good morning, to our fine colleagues (in humanity) across the Pacific Ocean and across the Atlantic Ocean.

As the conflict between the Israeli military and the Hezbollah Islamic thugs continues, you absolutely must get the facts. Visit the following link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

Wikipedia is fair and unbiased. The articles are backed by quality references. Most importantly, Wikipedia prevents the numerous Islamic thugs and the occasion Israeli extremist from defacing or destroying the articles.

The Wikipedia article accurately describes the current situation. (1) Hezbollah Islamic thugs (who are well supported by the Lebanese people) initiated the current conflict by launching a military attack against the Israelis and kidnapped 2 Israelis. (2) The Israelis then responded aggressively. (3) the controversy is whether the Israelis have used excessive force.

Point #3 is a morality judgment. To accurately assign a moral assessment to the situation, frame the situation in your local context. Suppose that you are living in San Diego, California. A Mexican vigilante group called La Raza II insists on liberating California from the USA. La Raza II is tightly integrated into Mexican society, and the Mexican government refuses to disarm La Raza II.

La Raza II periodically fires missiles at San Diego. One missile blows up a house in your neighborhood. Then, La Raza II successfully kidnaps two teenage girls from the house next to your house. La Raza II drags both girls to Mexico and repeatedly rapes and tortures them.

What would you expect Washington to do? What would you do?

I know what I would do. I would demand that Washington use overwhelming and disproportionate force to invade Mexico, kill all the members of La Raza II, and de-capitate the Mexican government.

In other words, the Israelis are justified in exterminating Hezbollah.

Posted by: atheist | August 3, 2006 12:28 AM

As an American I am completely willing to admit that this administration, and many before, have made some serious foreign policy errors in regards to the Middle East. That being said I also have to stand up and say that my country, this country is also one of a very few, if not the only where both Jew and Muslims are allowed to emmigrate, become citizens and have an equal say in their government. Not only that, but those families can (and do) actually live right next to each other in a state of peace and prosperity in many cases. So I find it very difficult to listen to the haters and the speech makers who quote old dead guys and claim that studying history will somehow explain why there has to be this conflict. Maybe you are the problem, maybe you need to study some "recent" history and see how its actually possible for people to get along. It isn't perfect, it never is, but its better that what you have and you might actually learn something if you were willing to open your mind. So what if you own a piece of dirt at the end of the day when everything else is dead. Big deal, good for you.

Its a shame we can't isolate all the haters and let the rest of us who actually just want to live a life (what a concept), live in peace.

Posted by: asta | August 3, 2006 12:30 AM

J-

I don't believe I am evading any points that you are trying to make. Hezbollah has done plenty of damage despite the fact that the Israeli casualties are lower than those of Lebanon. While the physical damage to Israel is not nearly as severe as it is in Lebanon, psychological damage is occurring on both sides.

"Israel's cities are relatively unharmed. their population is relatively safe. business and life in most of the country is going on as usual."

You couldn't be more wrong about that. Businesses have shut down in the entire northern part of Israel almost down to Tel Aviv. People cannot go to work anyway. The Israeli government has warned people to stay off the roads and to stay home. The only retail outlets open are the grocery stores during part of the day. Children are at home as all activities have been curtailed. Missile sirens go off 15-20 times per day, and people run into shelters in case their homes are hit. What are you talking about?

"In fact, it could be asserted that with an 87% approval rate in Lebanon, way up from before the war, that Israel has caused hezbollah to prosper in both recruits and funding from sympathetic countries throughout the ME, and hardened the hearts of many more lebanese people against Israel."

If Hezbollah has an 87% approval rate in Lebanon, which is not what I've read on several news outlets, then Israel really does have a problem on its border. Thus, it is justified in its attempt to stop the terrorist buildup on its northern border. Of course, in a perfect situation, there would be NO civilian casualties.

There are many Christian Lebanese who have not supported Hezbollah for years but were powerless to do anything about Hezbollah's infiltration into Lebanese government and society. Now, of course, they are justified in their sentiment towards Israel. But, every day, I read articles about Lebanese who want it known that they are glad that Hezbollah is being rooted out.

Why would Israel want to start WWIII as you questioned? This is a country that has peaceful relations with both Egypt and Jordan. Doesn't that mean anything? Remember the 2004 tsunami? Israel was one of the first countries to offer assistance. There's too much information to post here about it, but please read how much Israel donated despite that fact that Sri Lanka refused some of their help. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_response_to_the_2004_Indian_Ocean_earthquake) Is that the behavior of a country that wants to start a world war???

No, this conflict is about Hezbollah and similar groups inflicting their reign of terror on innocent people not just in Israel but all over the world. They may have a just cause, and depending on which side you're on, you can support or denounce it. But, for years, their tactics have been ruthless. There is just no way to justify the type of violence that they have perpetuated for the past decade or more.

Posted by: SM again | August 3, 2006 12:35 AM

J, just to make sure, I skimmed over Angus's posts and didn't see those "sources and facts" of information you mentioned. But that's ok. He has an opinion and spins things the way he wants them to be, i.e. - evil Israel vengefully killing kids, it supposedly being a "crime" to be Palestinian, the "genocide" apparently going on in the Pal territories, etc. These are baseless accusations glibly lobbed out because the accuser wants to make a statement. How many times does the fact that terrorists don't play by the rules need to be mentioned? And what about Arabs killing Arabs? I'd say that's more of a genocide than Angus's pseudo-kinda-sorta-not really genocide he mentioned earlier? I guarantee they have killed more of each other than the West or Israel has. Since terrorists don't seem to care about kids' futures and seem more than happy to use them as cannon fodder, what can be done? If depravity such as this exists in that society, is it the responsibility of their enemies to go easier on them? Do you suggest Israel do absolutely nothing in response? Frankly, what has Israel got to lose? I hear the argument all the time of "it will radicalize more people against them!" I'd say it's already too late. There already are people radicalized against them, and it didn't take this current fight to start that. The mere mention of "Jew" is enough to drive some Muslims berserk. To those of you who suggest the possibility of a prisoner swap, well, that is blackmail. I cannot imagine supporting that option. The Israeli soldiers were kidnapped in their own sovereign territory by Hezballah militants. The prisoners Hezballah wants have committed crimes, i.e. they are dangers to society. One of those men, in fact, is imprisoned because upon storming an Israeli appartment complex with a group of Hezballah thugs(so many combatants living there, you know!) he murdered an Israeli father in front of his 4-year old daughter, before rifle-butting her head into a rock, killing her also. This "freedom fighter's" name is Samir Qantar. Read up on him. The bottom line is, Hezballah did not have to kidnap those soldiers and ignite this war. It has long been established that Israel is a tough country and will not suffer fools lightly. If Israel wanted to completely destroy Lebanon and wantonly slaughter its civilians, it would have already happened. Israeli restraint and systematic targetting of Hezballah militants is a far cry from the murderous rampages against all things Jewish/Israeli of Hezballah. There is indeed a difference between the two, although the moral equivalence crowd would tell you otherwise. It's horrible that civilians are caught in the middle of this, but the blame rests squarely on the shoulders of those who decided to pick a fight with a stronger and more formidable foe.

Posted by: SC | August 3, 2006 12:35 AM

J-

To continue because I wasn't able to post all of this in one entry:

And about the tragedy in Qana... take a look:

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=123&art_id=qw1154562480313R131

"On Wednesday, Human Rights Watch questioned the death toll in the Qana attack. The international group listed the names of 28 known dead from the attack and said that 13 others were missing and might still be buried under the rubble. The discrepancy was attributed to an assumption that only nine of the people who took shelter in the basement of the building survived, but it emerged that at least 22 escaped, the group said."

And this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1675290/posts

"A Lebanese Shia explains how Hezbollah uses Human Shields
Der Tagesspiegel ^ | 7/30/06 | Dr. Mounir Herzallah

Posted on 07/31/2006 1:49:58 PM PDT by abu afak

In a letter to the editor of the Berlin daily Der Tagesspiegel a Lebanese Shia explains how after Israel's withdrawal from South Lebanon, Hezbollah stored rockets in bunkers in his town and built a school and residence over it.

""I lived until 2002 in a small southern village near Mardshajun that is inhabited by a majority of Shias like me. After Israel left Lebanon, it did not take long for Hezbollah to have the say in our town and all other towns. Received as successful resistance fighters, they appeared armed to the teeth and dug rocket depots in bunkers in our town as well. The social work of the Party of God consisted in building a school and a residence over these bunkers!

A local sheikh explained to me Laughing that the Jews would lose in any event because the rockets would either be fired at them or if they attacked the rocket depots, they would be condemned by world opinion on account of the dead civilians. These people do not care about the Lebanese population, they use them as shields, and, once dead, as propaganda. As long as they continue existing there, there will be no tranquility and peace.""

Dr. Mounir Herzallah Berlin-Wedding

(translated from the German by David Ouellette)"

Now tell me, can you not condemn this practice and hold Hezbollah at least partially accountable for deaths of innocents???

Posted by: SM again | August 3, 2006 12:36 AM

Another thing... Israel doesn't take kidnapping of its soldiers lightly. Have any of you heard of Ron Arad? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Arad) He's been missing since 1986, although no one knows if he's even alive. Where is he? What happened to him? When is he going to be released? Do you people who absolve Hezbollah really expect a country to sit by idly and allow their soldiers to be treated this way? Especially soldiers who were kidnapped in their own territory??? Is a prisoner exchange of 1000 prisoners fair trade for the two kidnapped by Hezbollah?

Posted by: SM | August 3, 2006 12:46 AM

Thank God for Rush Limbaugh. He put the truth out about this Hezbollah propagandy stunt on his program. Millions heard the truth because of Rush. Not so many will read the Washington Post's attempt to smear the truth.

The old media is dying because of crap like this article. Good.

Posted by: DemocraticUnderground | August 3, 2006 12:52 AM

You have failed in the most basic journalistic task: present the fact.

I am not much of a conspiracy theorist, but the EU referendum site doesn't just rely on "gut" instinct, it also presents facts.

in this case there is a compendium of photos, and those photos raie questions. Why is the smae recuer, holding the same poor dead girl, dressed differently in two photographs? Did the press take a picture, then he put the girl down,, took off his evst and flak jacket, pick her back up and pose for another picture?

What is frustrating is that the "press" has the answers -- it's employees were there. What is the timimg of the photos? Why is the rescuer wearing different clothing?

How about finding out factual answers -- and either faulting the theories or substantiating them,. instead of giving us opinions?

Posted by: johnl | August 3, 2006 01:05 AM

One thing, and one thing alone, raised my suspicions. That they showed the same poor child, over and over and over, in nearly every picture. First carried by "green helmet," then carried by another, then held up for display, then in an ambulance.

Perhaps this was the first body recovered from the ruble, so all the cameras jumped on it...

Perhaps, as is often the case, multiple news agencies taking multiple pictures make the scene seem like there was staging when there really wasn't...

Perhaps it is acceptable in Shia culture to lift the poor broken body of an innocent child up like a trophy fish for to give the cameras a better shot...

Perhaps the sequence is out of order, and the pacifier was on as she came out of the rubble and later fell off, and that ambulance picture was really taken last...

Perhaps this is a relative of "green helmet," which would explain why he spends so much time with this one dead child rather than helping dig others, possibly living, out of the rubble...

Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps.

No one, NO ONE questions that a tragedy took place. There are dead children! What could be more tragic!? (Though we may affix the blame to different entities).

But I also know that photogs look for a great picture accompany an article and provide editors and writers with lots of them, that editors look for a picture that supports their story, and that just the sensationalism alone could account for less that totally accurate visuals of this event, to say nothing of possible slant.

If the mainstream media who had photogs in Qana want to clear the air, there is a simple way to do so: show ALL the pictures shot that day, including the "inconsequential" ones, and tell us what order they were shot. Then the evidence will be entirely self evident.

Posted by: sts | August 3, 2006 01:46 AM

Robert Fisk: Entire Lebanese family killed in Israeli attack on hospital
Published: 03 August 2006
An attack on a hospital, the killing of an entire Lebanese family, the seizure of five men in Baalbek and a new civilian death toll - 468 men, women and children - marked the 22nd day of Israel's latest war on Lebanon.

The Israelis claimed that helicopter-borne soldiers had seized senior Hizbollah leaders although one of them turned out to be a local Baalbek grocer. In a village near the city, Israeli air strikes killed the local mayor's son and brother and five children in their family.

The battle for Lebanon was fast moving out of control last night. Lebanese troops abandoned many of their checkpoints and European diplomats were warning their colleagues that militiamen were taking over the positions. Up to 8,000 Israeli troops were reported to have crossed the border by last night in what was publicised as a military advance towards the Litani river. But far more soldiers would be needed to secure so large an area of southern Lebanon.

The Israelis sent paratroopers to attack an Iranian-financed hospital in Baalbek in the hope of capturing wounded Hizbollah fighters but, after an hour's battle, got their hands on only five men whom the Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, later called "tasty fish". The operation suggests what Hizbollah has all along said was the purpose of the Israeli campaign: to swap prisoners and to exchange Hizbollah fighters for the two Israeli soldiers who were captured on the border on 12 July.

Hizbollah continued to fire dozens of missiles over the border into Israel, killing one Israeli and wounding 21, with Israeli artillery firing shells back into Lebanon at the rate of one every two minutes. For the first time, a Hizbollah rocket struck the West Bank as well as the Israeli town of Beit Shean, the longest-range missile to have been fired so far. Yet still the West seems unable to produce an end to a war which is clearly overwhelming both Hizbollah and the Israelis.

Hizbollah obviously has far more missiles than the Israelis believed - there is not a town in northern Israel which is safe from their fire - and the Israeli army apparently has no plan to defeat Hizbollah other than the old and hopeless policy of occupying southern Lebanon. If Hizbollah had planned this campaign months in advance - and if the Israelis did the same - then neither side left room for diplomacy.

The French have wisely said they will lead a peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon only after a ceasefire. And to be sure, they will not let this become a Nato-led army. France already has a company of 100 soldiers in the UN force in southern Lebanon, whose commander is himself French, but Paris, after watching the chaos in Iraq, has no illusions about Western armies in the Middle East.

Outside the shattered Dar al-Hikma hospital in Baalbek yesterday stood two burnt cars and a minivan, riddled with bullet-holes. Hizbollah, it seems, fought the Israelis there for more than an hour. The hospital, which includes several British-manufactured heart machines, was empty when the Israeli raid began and was partly destroyed in the fighting.

The Lebanese army, which has tried to stay out of the conflict - heaven knows what its 75,000 soldiers are supposed to do - was attacked again by the Israelis yesterday when they fired a missile into a car which they claimed was carrying a Hizbollah leader. They were wrong. The soldier inside died instantly, joining the 11 other Lebanese troops proclaimed as "martyrs" by the government from a logistics unit killed in an Israeli air raid two weeks ago.

The obscene score-card for death in this latest war now stands as follows: 508 Lebanese civilians, 46 Hizbollah guerrillas, 26 Lebanese soldiers, 36 Israeli soldiers and 19 Israeli civilians.

In other words, Hizbollah is killing more Israeli soldiers than civilians and the Israelis are killing far more Lebanese civilians than they are guerrillas. The Lebanese Red Cross has found 40 more civilian dead in the south of the country in the past two days, many of them with wounds suggesting they might have survived had medical help been available.

An attack on a hospital, the killing of an entire Lebanese family, the seizure of five men in Baalbek and a new civilian death toll - 468 men, women and children - marked the 22nd day of Israel's latest war on Lebanon.

The Israelis claimed that helicopter-borne soldiers had seized senior Hizbollah leaders although one of them turned out to be a local Baalbek grocer. In a village near the city, Israeli air strikes killed the local mayor's son and brother and five children in their family.

The battle for Lebanon was fast moving out of control last night. Lebanese troops abandoned many of their checkpoints and European diplomats were warning their colleagues that militiamen were taking over the positions. Up to 8,000 Israeli troops were reported to have crossed the border by last night in what was publicised as a military advance towards the Litani river. But far more soldiers would be needed to secure so large an area of southern Lebanon.

The Israelis sent paratroopers to attack an Iranian-financed hospital in Baalbek in the hope of capturing wounded Hizbollah fighters but, after an hour's battle, got their hands on only five men whom the Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, later called "tasty fish". The operation suggests what Hizbollah has all along said was the purpose of the Israeli campaign: to swap prisoners and to exchange Hizbollah fighters for the two Israeli soldiers who were captured on the border on 12 July.

Hizbollah continued to fire dozens of missiles over the border into Israel, killing one Israeli and wounding 21, with Israeli artillery firing shells back into Lebanon at the rate of one every two minutes. For the first time, a Hizbollah rocket struck the West Bank as well as the Israeli town of Beit Shean, the longest-range missile to have been fired so far. Yet still the West seems unable to produce an end to a war which is clearly overwhelming both Hizbollah and the Israelis.

Hizbollah obviously has far more missiles than the Israelis believed - there is not a town in northern Israel which is safe from their fire - and the Israeli army apparently has no plan to defeat Hizbollah other than the old and hopeless policy of occupying southern Lebanon. If Hizbollah had planned this campaign months in advance - and if the Israelis did the same - then neither side left room for diplomacy.
The French have wisely said they will lead a peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon only after a ceasefire. And to be sure, they will not let this become a Nato-led army. France already has a company of 100 soldiers in the UN force in southern Lebanon, whose commander is himself French, but Paris, after watching the chaos in Iraq, has no illusions about Western armies in the Middle East.

Outside the shattered Dar al-Hikma hospital in Baalbek yesterday stood two burnt cars and a minivan, riddled with bullet-holes. Hizbollah, it seems, fought the Israelis there for more than an hour. The hospital, which includes several British-manufactured heart machines, was empty when the Israeli raid began and was partly destroyed in the fighting.

The Lebanese army, which has tried to stay out of the conflict - heaven knows what its 75,000 soldiers are supposed to do - was attacked again by the Israelis yesterday when they fired a missile into a car which they claimed was carrying a Hizbollah leader. They were wrong. The soldier inside died instantly, joining the 11 other Lebanese troops proclaimed as "martyrs" by the government from a logistics unit killed in an Israeli air raid two weeks ago.

The obscene score-card for death in this latest war now stands as follows: 508 Lebanese civilians, 46 Hizbollah guerrillas, 26 Lebanese soldiers, 36 Israeli soldiers and 19 Israeli civilians.

In other words, Hizbollah is killing more Israeli soldiers than civilians and the Israelis are killing far more Lebanese civilians than they are guerrillas. The Lebanese Red Cross has found 40 more civilian dead in the south of the country in the past two days, many of them with wounds suggesting they might have survived had medical help been available.

Posted by: Angus | August 3, 2006 01:50 AM

See how Pro-Israeli properganda machine here (in US) at works video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696&q=propoganda+israel

This high quality documentry video (close to PBS film level) It last about one hour. Some of intervewer are actually Jewish peace movement people. So there are still many noble, good Jewish people!!

I think this author is either unknowing fall or actually willing participater.

Posted by: Zhou Zihuai | August 3, 2006 01:51 AM

Some of the posters on this thread claim:


"how did the dead rapidly develop rigor mortis?

by being dead for longer than portrayed.

Posted by: ams | August 2, 2006 04:10 PM

From APS: I used to gullibly believe the Arab claims, but then I read about the JENIN "MASSACRE". I remember Arab leaders like Saab Erekat trying to spin the lie that hundreds upon hundreds of Palestinians had been wantonly "massacred" in the city of Jenin.

But it turned out to be a complete falsehood. It turned out that maybe 50 people had been killed during warfare."

The following excerpt is from Wikipedia on Auschwitz:

For many years, a memorial plaque placed at the camp by the Soviet authorities stated that 4 million people had been murdered at Auschwitz. The Polish communist government also supported this figure. In the west, this figure was accepted, but some historians had their doubts.[6][7] After the collapse of the Communist government in 1989, the plaque was removed and the official death toll given as 1.1 million. Holocaust deniers have attempted to use this change as propaganda, in the words of Nizkor: "Deniers often use the 'Four Million Variant' as a stepping stone to leap from an apparent contradiction to the idea that the Holocaust was a hoax, again perpetrated by a conspiracy. They hope to discredit historians by making them seem inconsistent.


So the Holocaust never happened because the number MURDERED was reduced from 4Mil to 1.1M?????

So we don't have pictures of 6 MILLION murdered at the hand of the Nazis - does that give us license to deny this despicable atrocity?


Shame on YOU and the holocaust deniers for denying the truth and human tragedy.

Posted by: RB | August 3, 2006 01:55 AM

Yet more holyhoax propaganda from a "holocaust" industrialist!

Posted by: printer | August 3, 2006 02:08 AM

Zhou Zihuai-
The documentary you cited has some good underlying points, but it is a completely one-sided portrayal of the situation there. Beware of media you're pushing as propoganda - - - the other side can claim it's propoganda as well.

Posted by: SM | August 3, 2006 02:14 AM

Printer-
Did you tear yourself away from your beloved JewWatch site? Have you cleansed your polluted mind yet? Hate to break it to you, buddy, but you're in the minority in the world. Most intelligent, well-educated and civilized people know and accept that the Holocaust occurred. Go back to your JewWatch site and bury your head in that sand, pal.

Posted by: SM | August 3, 2006 02:16 AM

It is official:

the ICRC and Human Rights Watch dispute Lebanon and Hezbollah's death toll number in Qana placing it at 28 people rather than the claimed 53. The Organization said no evidence of Hezbollah presence. It is ok. Remember the "Jenin Massacre" path: 5000 civilians, 500 civilians, and finally 57 casualties out of which 27 were Hamas terrorists. Just give it a few days and as usual it will turn out to be that there were Hezbollah terrorists there as well.

Posted by: The Middle East News Addict | August 3, 2006 02:36 AM

"Most intelligent, well-educated and civilized people know and accept that the Holocaust occurred." SM

Yeah, I bet these people include yourself and just about anyone who would blindly agree with you.

Anyone who does not agree with your propaganda is either uneducated, bigot, an anti-semite, etc.etc. etc.

You made an industry of atrocities committed against a very small number of jews
in germany. Not only do you ignore the atrocities committed against those who are not jewish but you also inflate the number of Jews killed beyond what any "educated" person with an ounce of common sense would find (of it)any more than a pathetic and cheap tool that you do not think twice about using constantly to milk the treasury of western nations and to instil false guilt in everyone of us.
The true holocaust is the millions of christians that you murdered in russia and now the christian (americans) that your are murdering on daily basis in your failed jewish/ zionist war in iraq. How about those whom you have been killing in palestine and lebanon for decades? How about the millions of iraqi children killed because of your deceipt and treachery? If the holocaust is such a valid "truth" as you like us to believe, why do you have to keep pushing the truthfulness of its occurence? If it were, I am sure people would see to it without such unending propganda to validate it.

Posted by: printer | August 3, 2006 02:41 AM

Despite the fact that this is two weeks old, I'm posting it for the people who claim that Hezbollah doesn't have weapons that can do much damage.

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/18/lebano13760.htm

******************************************
Lebanon: Hezbollah Rocket Attacks on Haifa Designed to Kill Civilians
Anti-personnel Ball Bearings Meant to Harm "Soft" Targets

(New York, July 18, 2006) - Hezbollah's attacks in Israel on Sunday and Monday were at best indiscriminate attacks in civilian areas, at worst the deliberate targeting of civilians. Either way, they were serious violations of international humanitarian law and probable war crimes, Human Rights Watch said today.

In addition, the warheads used suggest a desire to maximize harm to civilians. Some of the rockets launched against Haifa over the past two days contained hundreds of metal ball bearings that are of limited use against military targets but cause great harm to civilians and civilian property. The ball bearings lodge in the body and cause serious harm.

Hezbollah has reportedly fired more than 800 rockets into Israel from southern Lebanon over the past five days, killing 12 civilians and wounding many more. The vast majority of these rockets, as in past conflicts, have been Katyushas, which are small, have a range limited to the border area, and cannot be aimed with precision. Hezbollah has also fired some rockets in the current fighting that have landed up to 40 kilometers inside Israel.

"Attacking civilian areas indiscriminately is a serious violation of international humanitarian law and can constitute a war crime," said Sarah Leah Whitson, director of the Middle East and North Africa division at Human Rights Watch. "Hezbollah's use of warheads that have limited military use and cause grievous suffering to the victims only makes the crime worse."

On Monday, Human Rights Watch researchers inspected a three-story apartment building in Haifa's Bat Galim neighborhood after it was struck by a rocket around 3:00 p.m., causing extensive damage to the top two floors and wounding six residents, one of them seriously. They collected metal ball bearings that had pierced the walls of the apartment building across the street and car windshields up to one block away.

An Israeli ordinance removal expert at the scene told Human Rights Watch that the rocket used in the attack had a 240mm warhead. According to media reports, Hezbollah announced that it had fired dozens of Raad 2 and Raad 3 anti-tank missiles into Haifa in response to "aggressions against various Lebanese regions." An Israeli military official told the press on Sunday that Hezbollah had fired at least three Syrian-made Fajr-3 missiles.

On Sunday, a Hezbollah rocket killed eight workers in Haifa's main railway depot. Doctors who treated the wounded told Human Rights Watch that the rockets contained metal ball bearings. The ball bearings have increased the number and seriousness of injuries from rocket fire, the doctors said.

"In my medical opinion, they [these rockets] are supposed to injure as many people as possible," said Dr. Eran Tal-Or, director of the Surgical Emergency Room at Haifa's Ramban Hospital. "If you wanted to bring down a building, you would make a weapon with a heavier blast. And you wouldn't bother with the balls inside that don't do much harm to buildings; just to people."

Human Rights Watch interviewed three railway workers at the hospital wounded by the ball bearings in Sunday's lethal blast.

"There were three loud booms and I started running out of the depot," said Alek Vensbaum, 61, a worker at the Israel Train Authority. "One of the guys, Nissim, who was later killed, yelled at everyone to run to the shelter. The fourth boom got me when I was nearly at the door, and I was hit by shrapnel ... I was hit by ball bearing-like pieces of metal in my neck, hand, stomach and foot."

Sami Raz, 39, a railway electrician, said a ball bearing pierced his lung and lodged near his heart. "I had terrible difficulty breathing after I was hit," he said.

Twelve people were wounded in the attack, four of them seriously.

Under international humanitarian law, parties to an armed conflict may not use weapons in civilian areas that are so inaccurate that they cannot be directed at military targets without imposing a substantial risk of civilian harm. Such attacks can constitute war crimes. Deliberately attacking civilians is in all circumstances prohibited and a war crime.

Human Rights Watch has called on both Hezbollah and the Israeli military to respect the absolute prohibition against targeting civilians or conducting indiscriminate attacks in civilian areas.

Since fighting began on July 12, Israeli attacks have reportedly killed 209 people in Lebanon, most of them civilians. On Monday, Human Rights Watch called on the Israeli government to provide details about a bombing on July 15 that killed 16 civilians in a convoy near the village of Marwahin.

Posted by: SM | August 3, 2006 02:47 AM

As America sleeps, Asia is awake, and eventually Europe will awaken. Good day and good morning, to our fine colleagues (in humanity) across the Pacific Ocean and across the Atlantic Ocean.

As the conflict between the Israeli military and the Hezbollah Islamic thugs continues, you absolutely must get the facts. Visit the following link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

Wikipedia is fair and unbiased. The articles are backed by quality references. Most importantly, Wikipedia prevents the numerous Islamic thugs and the occasion Israeli extremist from defacing or destroying the articles.

The Wikipedia article accurately describes the current situation. (1) Hezbollah Islamic thugs (who are well supported by the Lebanese people) initiated the current conflict by launching a military attack against the Israelis and kidnapped 2 Israelis. (2) The Israelis then responded aggressively. (3) the controversy is whether the Israelis have used excessive force.

Point #3 is a morality judgment. To accurately assign a moral assessment to the situation, frame the situation in your local context. Suppose that you are living in San Diego, California. A Mexican vigilante group called La Raza II insists on liberating California from the USA. La Raza II is tightly integrated into Mexican society, and the Mexican government refuses to disarm La Raza II.

La Raza II periodically fires missiles at San Diego. One missile blows up a house in your neighborhood. Then, La Raza II successfully kidnaps two teenage girls from the house next to your house. La Raza II drags both girls to Mexico and repeatedly rapes and tortures them.

What would you expect Washington to do? What would you do?

I know what I would do. I would demand that Washington use overwhelming and disproportionate force to invade Mexico, kill all the members of La Raza II, and de-capitate the Mexican government.

In other words, the Israelis are justified in exterminating Hezbollah.

Posted by: atheist | August 3, 2006 03:00 AM

athiest,
You don't sound like an athiest. Its very clear what you are: a deranged, hateful, subhuman zionist.

I actually found your picture online after doing a little search.


Here it is, take a look:

http://christianparty.net/jews.htm

Posted by: Gibson for President 08 | August 3, 2006 03:12 AM

Hey Gibson for President 08 -

Your post isn't clever or funny. In fact, it's downright disgusting. I hope that in the future your ability to post on this blog is blocked due to completely inappropriate material. You are the one who is deranged. Get back to your facility and don't forget to take your meds.

Posted by: SM | August 3, 2006 03:34 AM

In addition to the following link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

also visit the additional link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon

Scroll down to the middle of the page, and you can read the history of other Islamic groups that have used Lebanon as a launching pad to attack the Israelis.

Posted by: atheist | August 3, 2006 03:47 AM

In addition to the following link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

also visit the additional link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon

Scroll down to the middle of the page, and you can read the history of other Islamic groups that have used Lebanon as a launching pad to attack the Israelis.

Posted by: atheist | August 3, 2006 03:50 AM

Angus,

you seem very angry. Why don't you come clean and tell us are what you are. Oh, wait, I think you already have.

Posted by: tom | August 3, 2006 03:53 AM

In addition to the following link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

also visit the additional link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon

Scroll down to the middle of the page, and you can read the history of other Islamic groups that have used Lebanon as a launching pad to attack the Israelis. The fair and unbiased Wikipedia article accurately describes what the Islamic thugs did and demonstrates that these thuggish military attacks ultimately forced the Israelis to respond aggressively.

Posted by: atheist | August 3, 2006 03:57 AM

In addition to the following link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

also visit the additional link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon

Scroll down to the middle of the page, and you can read the history of other Islamic groups that have used Lebanon as a launching pad to attack the Israelis. The fair and unbiased Wikipedia article accurately describes what the Islamic thugs did and demonstrates that these thuggish military attacks ultimately forced the Israelis to respond aggressively. The Israelis were 100% justified in occupying Lebanon in order to kill the Islamic thugs.

Posted by: atheist | August 3, 2006 04:01 AM

In addition to the following link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

also visit the additional link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon

Scroll down to the middle of the page, and you can read the history of other Islamic groups that have used Lebanon as a launching pad to attack the Israelis. The fair and unbiased Wikipedia article accurately describes what the Islamic thugs did and demonstrates that these thuggish military attacks ultimately forced the Israelis to respond aggressively. The Israelis were 100% justified in occupying Lebanon in order to kill the Islamic thugs.

Next, feast your eyes on the article at this link.

Posted by: atheist | August 3, 2006 04:27 AM

Next, feast your eyes on the article at this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

Scroll down to about the middle of the page. You see a reference to a fair and just compromise that Washington proposed for ending the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The compromise would give 100% of the Gaza Strip and 94% (yes, 94%) of the West Bank to the Palestinians to create an independent state. It would have a population density that is roughly the population density of Japan.

Jerusalem accepted the compromise. The Palestinians rejected it and, then, promptly proceeded to launch a series of brutal attacks against the Israelis.

How should you, an astute reader of this blog, deal with this nonsense? Look closely at the articles in this forum. Compare the information in those articles to the information in the Wikipedia articles. Notice how the information in the pro-Islam articles in this forum differs markedly from what the Wikipedia articles are stating. These pro-Islam articles are not being written by some freaks who are atypical of most Muslims. These pro-Islam articles represent what most Muslims believe.

Though the pro-Islam articles may have numerous fake names for the authors, ignore the names. They indicate nothing. The authors are all Muslims -- usually, ethnic Arabs.

Copy these articles. Show them to your children. Teach your children that Islamic morality differs radically from Western morality. Teach your children that the typical Muslim -- especially, an ethnic Arab Muslim -- acts and thinks in a way that is radically different from a non-Muslim. Do your best to instill this lesson in your children. Only in this way can you prepare future generations with the best mindset for dealing with the Islamic menace.

Posted by: atheist | August 3, 2006 04:31 AM

a couple of notes:
The jew/ zionist here who is trying to deceive us by pretending that he is an "athiest" must know that as much as he likes to bark, the true enemy of christians and christianity is israel and the world jewry.

athiest , aka (SM)..you will only be able to fool yourself!
Take a look at some of the hateful teachings of your judiasim...see how much hate towards christians is in your eveil talmud and hateful religion..
"Today the Talmud is the highest religious and ethical authority for observant Jews.

The Jewish Encyclopedia tells us Jesus was a bastard. 1 The Talmud says Mary, mother of Jesus, was an adulteress who "played the harlot with carpenters." 2 It says He was a fool who was excommunicated for the thought of seducing a woman. In His ensuing grief and confusion fell down and started worshipping a brick. 3 He was executed because He was a sorcerer and apostate. 4 He is now in hell, wallowing amid boiling hot excrement. 5 Jews are encouraged to denigrate the name of Jesus and "lecture upon it to his disadvantage." 6 Such clearly encourages the kind of anti-Christian propaganda emanating from the Jewish media today.

..."So, how should we respond this Easter as the Jewish media foxes sneaks into the sacred garden of Christian truth?

Give 'em both barrels!

End Notes:

1 Jewish Encyclopedia article on Jesus, p. 170.
2 Sanhedrin 106B.
3 Sanhedrin 107B.
4 Gittin 56B.
5 Sanhedrin 106B.
6 Foxman, p. 72.


Posted by: christian | August 3, 2006 04:56 AM

To Printer:
I'm kicking myself for even responding to your blatant nonsense regarding the Holocaust, but I'm going to do it anyway. This isn't even what this blog is about, but I feel compelled to respond to you.

"Anyone who does not agree with your propaganda is either uneducated, bigot, an anti-semite, etc.etc. etc.

Huh? The Germans documented EVERY detail of the war effort as well as their atrocities against Jews, homosexuals, gypsies and other groups during their ethnic cleansing campaign. The Germans freely admit their role and have paid reparations for years. If you're able to read and actually comprehend what you read, let me direct you to a site so you can educate yourself (although maybe you won't believe what you read there either):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial#Laws_against_Holocaust_denial
************************
Laws against Holocaust denial

Holocaust denial is illegal in ten European countries: Austria (article 3h Verbotsgesetz 1947), Belgium (Belgian Negationism Law), the Czech Republic under section 261, France (Loi Gayssot), Germany (§ 130 (3) of the penal code) also the Auschwitzlüge law section 185, Israel Law 5710-1950, Lithuania, Portugal Article 240 (2) thrown out at the same time as Spanish law, Romania, Slovakia, Spain (article 607) though this is now suspended as tribunal investigating the law's validity found it was a clear insult to civil rights and Switzerland (article 261bis of the Penal Code).

The following punishments are used with regards to Holocaust Denial Laws: Austria (min: six months, max: twenty years (violent), ten years (non-violent)), Belgium (min: fine, max: one year), Czech Republic (min: six months, max: two years), France (min: fine/one month, max: two years), Germany (min: fine/six months max: five years), Israel (min: one year, max: five years), Lithuania (min: fine/two years, max: ten years (violent), Poland (min: fine/three months, max: three years), Romania (min: six months, max: three years (public offender), five years (public servant offender), Slovakia (min: fine/one month, max: three years) and Switzerland (min: fine/one year, max: fifteen months).

Many of these countries also have broader laws against libel or inciting racial hatred, as do a number of countries that do not specifically have laws against Holocaust denial, such as Canada and the United Kingdom. The Council of Europe's 2003 Additional Protocol to the Convention on Cyber Crime, concerning the criminalisation of acts of a racist and xenophobic nature committed through computer systems includes an article 6 titled Denial, gross minimisation, approval or justification of genocide or crimes against humanity, though this does not have the status of law.

Of the countries that ban Holocaust denial, a number (Austria, the Czech Republic, Germany, Romania, and Slovakia) were among the perpetrators of the Holocaust, and many of these also ban other elements associated with Nazism, such as Nazi symbols. Additionally, scholars have pointed out that countries that specifically ban Holocaust denial generally have legal systems that limit speech in other ways, such as banning hate speech. In the words of D. Guttenplan, this is a split between the "common law countries of the US, Britain, and former British colonies from the civil law countries of continental Europe. In civil law countries the law is generally more proscriptive. Also under the civil law regime the judge acts more as an inquisitor, gathering and presenting evidence as well as interpreting it"[46]
************************

So, it looks like, in your case, it's a good thing you don't live in those countries or you wouldn't be free to post these horrific rantings.

"You made an industry of atrocities committed against a very small number of jews in germany."

First of all, the Jews exterminated in Europe were from other countries besides Germany. Poland donated 3 million alone. Jews from Austria, France, Denmark and many other countries were rounded up and marched off to camps. I don't think 6 MILLION people is "a very small number." I'd like to see you collect 6 million of anything, and then we can talk about how small that number is. Add in the millions of others that the Germans killed, and you can count that until you drop dead.

"The true holocaust is the millions of christians that you murdered in russia and now the christian (americans) that your are murdering on daily basis in your failed jewish/ zionist war in iraq."

Huh? Do you want to provide a source for your comment about the "millions of christians that you murdered in russia?" Are you on drugs???

"If the holocaust is such a valid "truth" as you like us to believe, why do you have to keep pushing the truthfulness of its occurence? "

Because it's a motto of the remaining Jews on the planet and future generations of Jewish people to "NEVER FORGET."

I wish you would find another online outlet for your insane hatred against the Jewish people. This blog is for people who are (mostly) discussing the current Israel-Lebanon conflict in an informed and intellectual way. People who think as you do and who live in blind ignorance and hatred are a disgrace to the human population. You should be mighty ashamed of yourself and embarassed, too. I have nothing more to say to you as you don't rate as a member of the civilized world.

Posted by: SM | August 3, 2006 04:59 AM

Christian:
First of all, athiest and I are two different people. Sorry to disappoint you. I guess detective work isn't your specialty. You know what they say about making assumptions.

Second, would you like to post a source for your ranting nonsense from the "Jewish Enclyclopedia?" There is absolutely NOTHING in the Talmud that speaks of those insane points you've posted. I think you need to study your own religion a little harder.

Geez - I wish you people would get some help!

Posted by: SM | August 3, 2006 05:05 AM

You keep insisting on the 6 mil number. First, that is a complete myth (as you well know in your heart). The number is much smaller..a few thousands that is. how that number mushroomed to 6 millions is just beyond fiction.

Second, your talk about holocaust denial laws and reparation..percisely confirms the point I made earlier..that your people made an industry of the suffering of a few thousand jews..by which you have succeeded in blackmailing the western nations for money, arms..and other anti-western laws.
Only people like you could pull of something like that.
Question: How long can the jews perpetrate the holocaust myth?
Answer: not much longer


Posted by: printer | August 3, 2006 05:39 AM

thanks for pointing out the lack of facts to these conspiracy theories. till facts itself reveal itself they should be taken as heresay..or pure spin

Posted by: www.xanga.com/kevkay | August 3, 2006 06:54 AM

[You keep insisting on the 6 mil number. First, that is a complete myth (as you well know in your heart). The number is much smaller..a few thousands that is. how that number mushroomed to 6 millions is just beyond fiction.]

Here in Germany, your average Nazi-sympathizer says it was 2 Million and not 6 Million.

This is because actual records show the killing of 2 Million Jews. The other 4 Million were added in to the figures by pro-Jewish journalists because they were only processed into the camp system and never heard from again.

So I agree with the Holocaust deniers on a point: those Jewish PR people are lying!! There is a big difference between being processed into camps and never heard from again...and actually being listed as shot and gassed and cremated.

These Zionist bastards are pretending that the other 4 Million were also shot, gassed or cremated when there is no direct evidence of that! The Germans kept excellent records and the Germans only recorded that the other 4 Million were processed into the camps (and never heard from again, but hey, maybe they wanted to get away from bad marriages so they changed their names).

Everyone knows the Germans couldn't kill people without documenting it officially.

So these excellent record keepers couldn't possibly have killed the other 4 Million or they would have said so with documents.

Sheesh. The pro-Jewish community just doesn't understand the need to back up their claims with hard evidence.

And to claim victim status when only 2 Million of them were killed insted of 6 Million...how outrageous.

Posted by: Jack Donaldson | August 3, 2006 07:29 AM

Current articles from the AP suggest that Israel takes responsibility for the Qana Massacre. The numbers are disputed, but the difference between 30 or 60 seems quite irrelevant. How many dead children and innocent civilians do you think it takes to make a Massacre. Does it really matter?

As I had suggested earlier, the statements that the Israeli government and Military made long before this happened indicated clearly that this type of thing was going to happen.

That the brave US senate actually TOOK OUT the language from the resolution they all signed that might have discouraged Israel from such wanton bloodlust only serves to spill the blood of those childred on our Governments hands as well.

with 600 civilians dead in lebanon and the entire country in shambles, doomed to struggle for decades before they can even return to their previous meager level of recovery from the last time this was done to their country by Israel, one has to wonder how long it will take our Image to recover in the eyes of the world. Will it ever be restored in the eyes of the lebanese people?

SM, you can not seriously be suggesting that people having to shut down businesses in some parts of Israel and having to sit in bomb shelters is in any way equivalent to having their entire infrastructure destroyed, a huge swath of land taken for the forseeable future by a multinational force, and casualties in the high hundreds and heading towards the thousands before this is over.

750,000 people displaced. ensured Chaos for many years to come. Israel Will recover in a few months after this ends.

regarding Angus,

heres a quote he provided to make a point,

"As Golda Meir once said about her Arab enemies: "We can perhaps forgive them for killing our children, but we can never forgive them for making us kill their children." How prescient."

So unforgivable that you have continued to kill "their" children for another 40 plus years....

See what I'm saying? It is not his opinion that Golda Meir spoke in such a manor, it is a fact. It indicates an attitude that has persisted in certain circles in Israel and the US that deserves to be criticized harshly.

In other similar forums, Angus has supported his opinions with a great many facts and references. If you can't find tehm you are simply not trying or not really interested.

Regarding WWIII, a good portion of the reason that I feel that Israel is pushing for it is because Israel's politicians come on fox news and essentially beg us to start it. talking about how dangerous Iran and Syria are and using the same lame rhetoric that Israel and the US are fighting the same fight. Look at Netanyahu's interviews. or those of the Israeli ambassador. It is as transparent as it could possibly be.

It is also the stated objective in the Clean Break paper that was created by feith,perle, ect, for the Israeli government. It also mentions this little move in Lebanon as well.

Please don't try to dazzle us with Israel's humanitarian record when it is simultaneously destrying the live of Millions of Palestinians and Lebanese.

Honestly, It is quite apparent that you simply cannot accept the obvious facts about Israel because it is too hard for any person with a conscience to swallow.

Read the clean break paper. watch fox news for a few nights, and then get back to me about whether Israel and the Neocons are trying to drag this country into WWIII.

One would have to be quite dim to ever believe that this action in lebanon could have a positive outcome regarding terrorism. Rather, it sets the stage for a great deal more bloodshed in the region, just like the Iraq war, which was also mentioned in clean break, and will only serve to justify wars against Iran and Syria. wars which do not serve the interests of the US at all.


J

Posted by: J | August 3, 2006 07:47 AM

Jack Donaldson,

I agree with much of what you say in your post- however, the 2 million number still seems a bit too high.

Here is a link to an excellent site with "real" info about those who were supposedly holocausted and those who escaped holocaustation so that they get to do the actual busness of holocauting of children in lebanon, palestine, iraq, etc.

http://www.ihr.org/

Posted by: jews-for-allah.org | August 3, 2006 07:58 AM

It is astonishing how, blinded by egalitarian ideals, contemporary Europe and America are unable to read through the diabolism of demagogue Islamic fundamentalists, who are gnawing at the very socio political fibre of these societies.

It is imperative that Islam be ransomed from the radicals by the ordinary Muslim who has been sub-humanly beaten to submission. Only if the average Muslim rises to condemn such religious bigotry, will there be peace in the Middle East.

The western media, swayed by an ill conceived philosophy of human rights and bizarre cosmopolitanism, is playing its cards all wrong.

S. Immanuel
# 5 Balar Kalvi Nilayam Avenue,
Vepery, Chennai - 600 007
India

Posted by: S. Immanuel | August 3, 2006 08:41 AM

"The Yesha Rabbinical Council announced in response to an IDF attack in Kfar Qanna that "according to Jewish law, during a time of battle and war, there is no such term as 'innocents' of the enemy."


All of the discussions on Christian morality are weakening the spirit of the army and the nation and are costing us in the blood of our soldiers and civilians," the statement said. (Efrat Weiss)"


Could have come right out of Goebbels mouth!

Posted by: Tom | August 3, 2006 08:52 AM

Rabbi S. Immanuel,

Do you have anything better to contribute than just this distorted, one-sided and bigotted view of yours? I am sure there is only one side to the M.E. conflict as far as you're concerned. We have plenty of one-sided views here in the U.S, courtesy of the zionist/jewish controlled "american" media, zionist-run government, and a few deranged theologians. So take my advice rabbi and keep your filth to yourself. Thanks for nothing.

Condom Leeza Lice
U.S. Secretary of State & Criminal Israeli Conspirator

Posted by: Condom Leeza Lice | August 3, 2006 08:59 AM

It's obvious that the world is dividing into two camps: The forces of Haqq (Truth) and the forces of batil (falsehood).

Posted by: Shaharazed | August 3, 2006 09:05 AM

Shaharazed,

I completely agree!


A true jew (jew for allah)
"the arab is our brother, there is no other"

Posted by: true jew | August 3, 2006 09:17 AM

Yesha Rabbinical Council: During time of war, enemy has no innocents


The Yesha Rabbinical Council announced in response to an IDF attack in Kfar Qanna that "according to Jewish law, during a time of battle and war, there is no such term as 'innocents' of the enemy."


All of the discussions on Christian morality are weakening the spirit of the army and the nation and are costing us in the blood of our soldiers and civilians," the statement said. (Efrat Weiss)

(07.30.06, 17:37)


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283720,00.html



Posted by: Thomas | August 3, 2006 09:22 AM

And things just keep getting more complicated for those who think that the Qana air strike is a cut-and-dried case of Israeli war crimes against an innocent population.

It seems that we've caught AFP photographers--including one of the ones accused of staging photos of the dead at Qana--in what appears to be other staged photos on that day and the day after the air strike.

The media's credibility in this matter is thin, and getting thinner. I'll be quite interested to see the final IDF and International Red Cross reports triggered by the questions that the blogging community has raised, and I'm ashamed for a press that couldn't find it within itself to dig a little deeper to answer these questions on their own.

Anderson Cooper has already admitted that his crew has been handled by Hezbollah media minders, and CNN's Nic Robertson has openly admitted his coverage on July 18 was stage-managed by Hezbollah from start to finish. Times' Christopher Allbritton has said that Hezbollah has copies of every journalist's passport, and has "hassled many and threatened one" to cover-up what journalists have seen of Hezbollah's rocket launching operations. CBS's Elizabeth Palmer admits to being handled by Hezbollah, and being allowed to only see what Hezbollah wants them to see. They are the voices of a few, expressing the experiences of the many. All of this is documented at http://web.israelinsider.com/

The problem seems to be that the world's media is Hezbollah's al-too-willing accomplice, echoing CNN under Eason Jordan, covering only what terrorists and madmen want covered under the treat of not being able to post anything at all.

The truth of what happened in Qana is still very much in doubt, but the "truthiness" of a complicit media seems already exposed.

Bob Owens
Confederate Yankee Blog
http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/
Former Washingtonpost.com guest blogger

Posted by: Bob Owens | August 3, 2006 10:01 AM

Picking at straws are we? You people are sick.

I use to be a supporter of Israel, until this recent conflict. After the Qanna murders, I began to reflect, straddling both sides, but now the above outrage by Morley, has put me on the side of the Arabs.

Now the world begins to see what the Palestinians have had to put up with for over 50 years. You have just lost my support you monsters!!!

Posted by: Alice | August 3, 2006 10:12 AM

Yeah, and I suppose it might be the Qana deaths were staged. You might be right.

While were on conspiracy theories maybe the UN observers who died was also staged.

Maybe even the whole Lebanon conflict was staged.

In fact, there is no war going on right now.

Posted by: Gary Steele | August 3, 2006 10:16 AM

I can see that bringing up the Jenin "Massacre" hoax has ruffled some feathers. However, the organizations that debunked the "Massacre" claims weren't some crazy fringe outfits; they were the UN and the BBC - two organizations that are in fact extremely Anti-Israel.

Yet even they had to admit that there was no "massacre" in Jenin. (see link below).

So, I think its fair to view Qana with a healthy degree of skepticism. After all, why should Hezbollah be any less likely to try and create a PR event than the Palestinians did with Jenin?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2165272.stm

Posted by: APS | August 3, 2006 10:16 AM

I guess all those weeping family were acting while they were pulling out their dead love ones from the rubble as the missile were raiining over their heads.


STEP ASIDE, TOM CRUISE!!!

Posted by: Jose | August 3, 2006 10:21 AM

"Unfortunately it was never even reported that way. There were NO families pulling these children out. Only rescue workers. There appears to have been no missile strike on this building but there was an Hezbollah arms cache that exploded."

Are you serious??? Maybe there weren't any parents pulling these children out because they were in the rubble themselves. We can all sit back and point accusations, and come up with theories about how it went, but there are still people suffering here.

Posted by: qasim | August 3, 2006 10:30 AM

"The Yesha Rabbinical Council announced in response to an IDF attack in Kfar Qanna that "according to Jewish law, during a time of battle and war, there is no such term as 'innocents' of the enemy."


All of the discussions on Christian morality are weakening the spirit of the army and the nation and are costing us in the blood of our soldiers and civilians," the statement said. (Efrat Weiss)"


Could have come right out of Goebbels mouth!

Posted by: Tom | August 3, 2006 12:05 PM

Well then I hope for a lot of similar stages in Isreal with jews getting picked out of the rubble then.

Posted by: beef | August 3, 2006 12:06 PM


beef,
I share your sentiment, fully!

chicken

Posted by: chicken | August 3, 2006 12:09 PM

Jewish degenerates fabricate arguments to promote Israeli expansionism and inhumane cruelty that no enlightened or humane Jew would ever tolerate. The degenerate Jews - here and in Israel - have altogether too much visibility in our media and in our political landscape. I'll take Amira Haas, Gideon Levy, Tom Segev, Uri Avnery, and Gerald Kaufman any day over the Jewish degenerates who argue that the children at Qana were not killed by American bombs dropped by Israel.

Posted by: TimothyL | August 3, 2006 12:15 PM

Well then I hope for a lot of similar stages in Isreal with jews getting picked out of the rubble then.

Posted by: beef | August 3, 2006 12:06 PM

SICK SOB

__________________________________

I guess all those weeping family were acting while they were pulling out their dead love ones from the rubble as the missile were raiining over their heads.


STEP ASIDE, TOM CRUISE!!!

Posted by: Jose | August 3, 2006 10:21 AM

Unfortunately it was never even reported that way. There were NO families pulling these children out. Only rescue workers. There appears to have been no missile strike on this building but there was an Hezbollah arms cache that exploded.


_____________________________________


Picking at straws are we? You people are sick.

I use to be a supporter of Israel, until this recent conflict. After the Qanna murders, I began to reflect, straddling both sides, but now the above outrage by Morley, has put me on the side of the Arabs.

Now the world begins to see what the Palestinians have had to put up with for over 50 years. You have just lost my support you monsters!!!

Posted by: Alice | August 3, 2006 10:12 AM


What a load of poop. Fake comment by a fake poster. Why would someone who "suddenly" changes sides start talking about 50 years of Palestinian suffering. Liar. Fake.

Posted by: | August 3, 2006 12:52 PM

"What a load of..... Fake comment by a fake poster. Why would someone who "suddenly" changes sides start talking about 50 years of Palestinian suffering. Liar. Fake."

Get real and wake up! you have no idea what you are talking about, none! One can always "suddenly" realize that (s)he has been wrong, mislead, or on the wrong side of things for a very long time. That does not make a faker or a liar of anyone. Has it ever occured to anyone (you think) that after "suddenly" seeing the truth...that they say.."Oh! I have been wrong all that time! I must have been mislead, misinformed...etc.etc.etc. all those years..." Don't get too upset, but many people the world over are becoming aware of the savagery of your terrorist, illegal, child-killer zionist regime (aka ISRAHELL).

Posted by: american | August 3, 2006 01:07 PM

Now the world begins to see what the Palestinians have had to put up with for over 50 years. You have just lost my support you monsters!!!

Not talking about herself, talking about the world. How can that be fake?

Posted by: | August 3, 2006 01:38 PM

Tom wrote: (interestingly enough in the middle of a bunch of Athiest posts in the middle of the night)??

Angus,

you seem very angry. Why don't you come clean and tell us are what you are. Oh, wait, I think you already have.

Posted by: tom | August 3, 2006 03:53 AM

Ok Tom - I am very angry - it makes me angry to watch the news every day and see dead Women and Children - this morning I wake up and hear about a 13 year old boy killed by the IDF in Gaza last night - probably just one of the many deaths that occured yesterday.

It makes me angry that instead of taking responsibility for their actions they use aipac et al attack dogs to scurry around looking for anything and everything to discredit, disinform, blame shift, justify their latest outrage.

It makes me angry that this is a problem that could have been resolved years ago - the Saudis put an offer in the table 4 years ago!! 1967 Borders full acceptance and recognition - so why no shouts of joy from the Israeli side?

Could it be that the likudists(Kadima too) and their supporters in the US don't want peace?

Could it be that they really don't care what happens to their own people let alone their neighbours?

Could it be that there is so much money to be made of this ongoing conflict that they would rather keep it going ad nausem?

Could it be that they realise that if peace breaks out the armaments/financial gravy train ends?

Could it be that the angry old men of israeli politics realise that if peace breaks out they will be redundant?


Or could it be that they simply hate Arabs so much that they will never agree to having a vibrant, secular Palestinian state by their side?

For the record I believe that after WWII the founding of A homeland for the Jewish Diaspora was a moral imperitive unfortunatly the methods and founding of THE current homeland was an immoral disaster that still resonates in all our lives today.

Having said that it is too late to change that but certainly 1967 borders should be considered by all as a potential resolution.

Posted by: Angus | August 3, 2006 01:51 PM

from a young age jewish children are taught their history...the massive suffering they have endured all the way back, to the present holocaust...they learn all these things from a young age...that the world does not like them.

i think if we understand it like that, then we can understand why there reaction is to deny qana. the think the world is trying to hurt them again.

the world is not out to get you israel...but at least admit to your mistakes...you killed some children. say you are sorry and that's it and don't do it again. trying to deny it doesn't make you look any better. the more you continue down this path, the more you lose credit...now i know there are jews and israeli's out there who don't agree with what is going on...make your voice heard because people's opinion of you is changing.

i was very concerned when i read the above article. from the beginning of this tragedy, israel has been putting forth different excuses...it is time to say the truth...

Posted by: concerned citizen of the world | August 3, 2006 01:58 PM

This is a dispositive and absolute rebuttal of EU Referendum's conspiracy theory, that proves their whole "timestamp" argument false. Try to get Richard North to comment on this, particularly ask him if he intentionally tried to deceive the public, because he must have definately seen that the timestamps were Eastern Time Zone.

http://kabobfest.blogspot.com/2006/08/slamming-israels-apologists.html

Posted by: Fadi | August 3, 2006 02:09 PM

Angus wrote: "Ok Tom - I am very angry - it makes me angry to watch the news every day and see dead Women and Children - this morning I wake up and hear about a 13 year old boy killed by the IDF in Gaza last night - probably just one of the many deaths that occured yesterday."

I agree with you completely. While the world has turned its attention to lebanon, we have forgotten about gaza. Another boy was shot in the head just while on his roof.

The Israeli's call up the homes in danger and give them a minute or two to evacuate before they do their destruction. A Palestinian American woman who was pregnant and visiting her family was shot at a checkpoint and killed. Another family while on the beach were murdered. This is not even skimming the surface.

Read a good article by Chris Hedges on Israel's Wall of Horrors:
http://www.alternet.org/story/39715/

Posted by: khaled | August 3, 2006 02:10 PM

Could you mentally ill people who deny the Holocaust find another blog to issue your rants? It's not the point of this blog. You people are disgusting.

Posted by: We know who you are | August 3, 2006 02:18 PM

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.html

"As the Israel Air Force continues to investigate the [Qana] air strike, questions have been raised over military accounts of the incident.

"It now appears that the military had no information on rockets launched from the site of the building, or the presence of Hezbollah men at the time.

"The Israel Defense Forces had said after the deadly air-strike that many rockets had been launched from Qana. However, it changed its version on Monday.

"The site was included in an IAF plan to strike at several buildings in proximity to a previous launching site. Similar strikes were carried out in the past. However, there were no rocket launches from Qana on the day of the strike."

Posted by: Ghandi | August 3, 2006 02:21 PM

Hey "Anger" -

Since you claim to be upset about innocent people being killed (especially women and children), are you upset about this?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746077.html

"Four people killed in Acre, three in village near Tarhisha
Seven people killed in rocket strikes in northern Israel

A barrage of Hezbollah rockets slammed into northern Israel on Thursday, killing at least seven Israelis. Three people were killed when a rocket crashed directly into a house near the northern town of Tarhisha, and another four were killed when a rocket exploded near their vehicle in Acre.

Three people were wounded in the strike on Acre, and another four were wounded when rockets hit the town of Horfesh. At least three more people were wounded in Kiryat Shmona and Tiberias. "

Your double standard for death is disturbing.

Posted by: SM | August 3, 2006 02:24 PM

I neither accept nor reject the "conspiracy theory". At first I rejected it. But there is one question that defies explanation. In my opinion Jefferson Morley avoided asking it. Whether intentional or subconscious his ommission of a central question exposed that he is more interested in supporting his beliefs than discovering the truth. I have grown used to this from the media and now accept it as their S.O.P. The blogs are no better, but their variety is so much broader that it is possible to uncover more nuggets of truth underneath the layers of bias. Media still doesn't get that. The blogs aren't popular because they reflect a single point of view. The blogs are popular becuase they express the entire tapestry.

Anyway, back to "the conspiracy". Until this one question is answered those who rush to condemn Israel are being just as illogical as those who rush to defend them. The question is simple. "Why are there no men?"

Posted by: Richard | August 3, 2006 02:25 PM

Angus your recent post sounds like you might be questioning whether Israel really wants peace.

The more you analyze it, the more it appears to be a negative.

After they have finished putting Lebanon back another 20 years or more, the Hezbollah will come again to the forefront, the people will support them all around, and their will be fury to contend with. The Israeli's already have angry neighbors and this is not going to help the situation.

And it all started after 2 soldiers being held hostage. If Israel really wants peace, why didn't they do a trade? Because it is not that simple.

And if Israel doesn't want Hezbollah, Hamas, PLO and other terrorist groups to terrorize them, then they need to understand the source of such terror groups.

In reality these groups were born, because people's land were taken in Palestine, people lost their homes when Jewish settlers came to take them, people lost their livelihoods, some of them their family, some people lost their children. You don't think that is going to make people angry.

While Israel says they are fighting a war to exist, these groups are also defending the rights of their people to live, and survive.

Most people cannot understand this because they are not going through this.

If Israel wants peace truly, then act with more compassion and mercy to your neighbors and the palestinians. Don't kill children unprovoked? Don't take over more of people's homes and land?

Jewish people have a right to have a home, but build it in a way where you won't have these terror groups menacing you. Admit to some mistakes in going about it.

Some Palestinian are just looking for an apology about what happened. Just a simple apology by the Israeli government.

Posted by: an arab | August 3, 2006 02:35 PM

This was from SM (who I now recognise as Voice of Reason from another blog):

"Hey "Anger" -

Since you claim to be upset about innocent people being killed (especially women and children), are you upset about this?"

The simple answer is yes I am upset about this. I've said many times that people who kill civilians especially women and children are worthless.

It's not a double standard its just that the Israelis are killing hundreds more civilians than the hbs are.

Posted by: Angus | August 3, 2006 02:39 PM

Why is there such a problem with moral equivalency for people who write in on this blog? Despite the tragic deaths of innocent civilians by Israel, Hezbollah is the main target. On the other side, Hezbollah is predominantly targeting civilians. It's been said repeatedly, and I cannot fathom why you people who support Hezbollah and condemn Israel cannot get that information through your heads. Is anyone else bothered by the fact that Hezbollah doesn't care if it hits the population of Christian Arabs and Druze who live in northern Israel? Anyone? Or is your rant just about the Jews because killing Jews is justified?

Posted by: SM | August 3, 2006 02:44 PM

Because we went through the holocaust, we should know not to do that to another human being. Have we completely forgotten what happened to us? When I read posts that justify what is going on, I feel very sad.

You are marring the memory of the millions who were murdered.

That is why we have insane people saying the holocaust never happened. It's time to stop this.

Posted by: Jacob | August 3, 2006 02:45 PM

Yes, but Israel is not deliberately targeting civilians. The tragic death of these people is horrible. On the other hand, Hezbollah IS targeting civilians. How is that morally equivalent?

Posted by: SM | August 3, 2006 02:46 PM

SM (aka: voice of reason, athiest, etc.)wrote:

"Despite the tragic deaths of innocent civilians by Israel, Hezbollah is the main target. On the other side, Hezbollah is predominantly targeting civilians"

How interesting: and sepite all of that nonsense of yours, you have over 900 lebanese civilians murdered by your zionist regime compared with a total of about 50 zionist israelis more than two thirds of which are zionist soldiers. I guess its those damn "smart" bombs designed to specifically target civilains.

Posted by: printer | August 3, 2006 02:50 PM

"Yes, but Israel is not deliberately targeting civilians. The tragic death of these people is horrible. On the other hand, Hezbollah IS targeting civilians. How is that morally equivalent?"

Israel doesn't say it is targetting civilians but anyone who has been watching the news can see that they are. Not everyone is honest though. Hezbollah says it, but Israel lies.

If Israel wasn't targetting civilians then why were ambulances and red cross trucks bombed. Why were people fleeing their homes, after Israel told them to evacuate, bombed? You tell me, whether Israel is targetting civilians. They can't be that blind not to see an ambulance, and why exactly would they target UN people.

Posted by: sharon williams | August 3, 2006 02:53 PM

mel gibson was right-wars and everything else revolves around jews-the whole world revolves around us jews-i love it. cant wait for moshiach to come

Posted by: sammy | August 3, 2006 03:15 PM

We did no wrong - What a shocker!!

"Also Thursday, the Israeli military announced it had completed an inquiry into the airstrike Sunday on the Lebanese town of Qana that killed dozens of civilians--most of them children-- huddled in a three-story building.

In a statement, the military expressed regret for the incident but blamed Hezbollah for using civilian areas to facilitate attacks, including in Qana. The statement said the building was targeted in accordance with military guidelines, but that authorities mistakenly believed no civilians were inside and would not have authorized the attack had their information been accurate.

Although the Lebanese government said 57 people died in the airstrike, a Human Rights Watch report published Wednesday said the confirmed death toll thus far was 28 people, 16 of them children. Thirteen people are still missing, the report said.

The watchdog group labeled Israel's inability to distinguish between civilians and combatants a "systematic failure," and said that failure cannot be blamed on "wrongful Hezbollah practices."


Interestingly I see no mention here of conspiracy either.

Posted by: Angus | August 3, 2006 03:20 PM

It occurs to me that the best way to shut down and rob the legitimacy from a serious criticism of Israeli policy would be to start filling any forum that might be making a few good points with completely off topic and over the top vile racism and holocaust denial. It would make any new readers think that this whole line of discourse is not worth pursuing and is somehow anti semitic in nature.
It would be like willingly providing all the material necessary for a "guilt by association" job.

So if's that's your intention, keep it up your doing a really great job.


J

Posted by: J | August 3, 2006 03:29 PM

From the AP, Insights from king Abdullah, regarding the current Israeli offensive in Lebanon:


Jordan's King Abdullah II, a key U.S. ally, issued an ominous warning to America and Israel that the prolonged battle in Lebanon has weakened moderates all across the Mideast. Even if Hezbollah is destroyed, the hostility toward Israel is so high that another such group may pop up in Syria, Egypt, Iraq -- or even his own country, King Abdullah II, a key U.S. ally, said, according to published reports.

"The Arab people see Hezbollah as a hero because it's fighting Israel's aggression," he said. "This is a fact that the U.S. and Israel must realize: As long as there is aggression, there's resistance and there's popular support for this resistance."

Israel is creating an environment of war without end at the expense of the US.

I wonder how much this will inspire recuitment and support of the insurgency in Iraq? I think it can be reasonably asserted that Israel has made the job in Iraq even harder than they had made it before.

What ever happened to winning the hearts and minds of the Arab and Muslim world?


J

Posted by: J | August 3, 2006 03:32 PM

They are being won. Just like prizes at a shooting gallery. Kill a Muslim, keep his heart and mind.

Posted by: | August 3, 2006 03:33 PM

That is very funny. . . except that it really isn't.

Posted by: tom | August 3, 2006 03:34 PM

J-
Interesting question you asked. Why does the entire world NEED to win the hearts and minds of the Arab and Muslim world? About what other ethnic or religious group would you ask that question? Do we need to win over the Chinese? The Venezuelans? The Mexicans? I'm really not trying to be sarcastic. I am trying to understand your point.

Aside from Israel handing over the West Bank, I am curious to know exactly what the world population of Arabs and Muslims really wants. While I don't group all Muslims into the category of radical Islamists, you can't deny that these groups of fundamentalists are on the rise. What is it that they want from the rest of the world?

Posted by: SM | August 3, 2006 03:36 PM

What is it that they want from the rest of the world?

Better treatment of the Palestinians for one.
Acceptance of their own mistakes, instead of blaming others, for another.

Posted by: | August 3, 2006 03:40 PM

Better treatment of the Palestinians rests with the entire Arab world as well as with Israel. Are you familiar with how Palestinians are treated in many of the other Arab nations? Lebanon has reportedly treated them the worst of the Arab nations.

Read below from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#Treatment_in_Arab_countries):

Jordan

After the 1967 Six-Day War, during which Israel captured the West Bank from Jordan, Palestinian Arabs living there continued to have the right to apply for Jordanian passports and live in Jordan. Palestinian refugees actually living in Jordan were considered full Jordanian citizens as well. In July 1988, King Hussein of Jordan announced the severing of all legal and administrative ties with the West Bank. In practice, what this meant was that any Palestinian domiciled on Jordanian soil would remain to be considered Jordanian. However, any person domiciled in the West Bank would have no right to Jordanian citizenship.

Jordan still issues passports to Palestinians in the West Bank, but they are for travel purposes only and do not constitute an attestation of citizenship. Palestinians in the West Bank who had regular Jordanian passports were issued these temporary ones upon expiration of their old ones, and entry into Jordan by Palestinians is time-limited and considered for tourism purposes only. Any Jordanian citizen who is found carrying a Palestinian passport (of the sort issued by the Palestinian Authority and registered by Israel for validity) has his/her Jordanian citizenship revoked by Jordanian border agents.

More recently, Jordan has restricted entry of Palestinians from the West Bank into its territory, fearing that many Palestinians would try to take up temporary residence in Jordan during the Al-Aqsa Intifada. This has caused many hardships for Palestinians, especially since 2001 when Israel discontinued permission for Palestinians to travel through its Ben Gurion International Airport, and traveling to Jordan to fly out of Amman became the only outlet for West Bank Palestinians to travel.

Saudi Arabia

An estimated 500,000 Palestinians are living in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia as of December 2004. They are not allowed to hold or even apply for Saudi citizenship, as the new law passed by Saudi Arabia's Council of Ministers in October 2004 (which entitles expatriates of all nationalities who have resided in the kingdom for ten years to apply for citizenship, with priority being given to holders of degrees in various scientific fields ) has one glaring exception: Palestinians will not be allowed to benefit from the new law because of Arab League instructions barring the Arab states from granting them citizenship in order "to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland".

Discrimination in Lebanon

Lebanon barred Palestinian Arabs from 73 job categories including professions such as medicine, law and engineering. They are not allowed to own property. Unlike other foreigners in Lebanon, they are denied access to the Lebanese healthcare system. The Lebanese government refused to grant them work permits or permission to own land. The number of restrictions have been mounting since 1990.[23] In June 2005, however, the government of Lebanon removed work restrictions from all Lebanese-born Palestinians, enabling them to apply for work permits and work in the private sector. [24]

Where is the world outcry about these abuses towards Palestinians by their Arab brethren? Why are these issues ignored? If you're going to hold Israel responsible, you must hold the other Arab nations accountable as well. Espcially the oil rich nations like Saudi Arabia and Qatar that would certainly be able to provide better circumstances for the Palestinians in terms of education and reducing the cycle of poverty.

Does anyone care to comment?

Posted by: SM | August 3, 2006 03:52 PM

Middle East News Addict, you need to get your stuff from better sources. Your sources are obviously cutting and adulterating.

Posted by: Gus | August 3, 2006 03:54 PM

"Where is the world outcry about these abuses towards Palestinians by their Arab brethren? Why are these issues ignored?"

The Palestinians are treated better in any Arab country than any Arab (including those with American Citizenship) is treated in Israel.

The Arabs are not worried about their treatment of other Arabs, what they see is the terrible things the Israeli's have done.

Let's try an example: If your children are misbehaving in a public place, you would discipline them in the manner you see fit.
Now imagine you are in the same place with the same occurance, and a person with whom you have had bad faith in the past walks past and begins to discipline your children. How do you feel? How do you respond?

Another example: When the Israelis took the blood that had been donated by Ethiopian Jews and poured it into the gutters, because they (the Israelis) did not consider it pure Jewish blood, there was little to no outcry, because it was Jews treating other Jews badly. Now what would have happened if the Ethiopian Government had done the same things for the same reasons? Can you see the outcry of Anti-Semitism that would result?

Posted by: Thom | August 3, 2006 04:09 PM

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