The Qana Tipping Point

The Israeli air strike on the Lebanese village of Qana early Sunday morning did more than kill 57 civilians. According to a wide range of commentary in the international media, it inflamed already boiling public opinion in the Arab world against Israel, undermined what little support the United States has among the Lebanese people, and illuminated the continuing inability of Israel and the United States to achieve their goal of decisively weakening Hezbollah.

On Monday, the leading English-language news sites in the Arab world -- including Aljazeera.net, the Jordan Times, the Beirut Daily Star, and the Arab News -- featured photos of rescue workers carrying the dusty bodies of children from the wreckage of a Qana apartment building where they had taken refuge.

The headlines were blunt: "Israel Massacres Kids," said the Arab News in Saudi Arabia.

The Qana attack wiped out concerns in the Sunni Arab world, voiced early in the conflict, about Hezbollah and its allies in Shiite Iran.

The Daily Star and many other sites emphasized a historical angle that most Americans were probably unaware of: that Qana had been the site of an unprovoked Israeli attack on a refugee camp in 1996 that killed 106 civilians.

"The Israeli butchers have added a new line to their bloody record," said Al Ahram, the leading daily newspaper of Egypt whose editor is appointed by the country's pro-American leader Hosni Mubarak. "This dark chapter resembles the one that took place ten years ago. The place is the same... the butchers are the same and the victims again are innocent children and women."

Qana was a turning point says the German media,

"At the start of Israel's siege on militants in Lebanon, world opinion tilted toward Jerusalem -- even some Arab governments made hushed noises against Hezbollah," said Spiegel Online. "But after an attack on a Lebanese village killed over 50 civilians on Sunday, that honeymoon is well and truly over, writes the German press."

In Israel, 90 percent of people support their government, according to a TV story from the Israeli Broadcast Authority

Yankee Go Home

The Bush administration has said that its goal is bolster Lebanese democracy. The vast majority of Lebanese don't believe it, according to a new poll.

Four out of five Lebanese Christians support Hezbollah in the current conflict, according to a poll conducted last week by the independent Beirut Center for Research and Information. Almost ninety percent of all respondents agreed that the United States is not an honest mediator in the Middle East.

The rejection of the U.S. policy of supporting Israel is evident in Lebanon’s online media. Three news sites that a little over a year ago rejoiced at U.S. support for the country's so-called Cedar Revolution now excoriate Israel and the United States on an almost daily basis.

The Daily Star said Monday that the Qana massacre has boosted support for Hezbollah.

"“Now that fresh images of the broken bodies of the women and children of Qana are being shown on our television screens, the idea of forgetting has become all the more unthinkable. These images have stirred the anger and outrage of even the most moderate Lebanese, proving that Israeli brutality - not Hizbullah - has become Israel's own worst enemy. Israel's unabashed butchery in Qana has only demonstrated to many of those who were on the fence that there is indeed a legitimate need for resistance.”"

Ya Libnan, a news site that arose spontaneously to support the massive street demonstrations of Feb. 2005 that forced Syria to withdraw from Lebanon, noted that Qana is believed by some to be the site of a Christian miracle.

“"2006 years ago Jesus performed the miracle of turning water into wine in the very same place that Israel murdered 37 children as they slept in Qana on Sunday," said Ya Libnan.

(Actually, there is disagreement among biblical scholars about where Jesus performed this miracle. Some think the more likely site was near Nazareth in present-day Israel.)

"Another Qana Horror," said the homepage headline on Naharnet, Web site of An Nahar, the newspaper that played a leading role in the U.S.-backed popular protests against Syria.

Tarnished Rice

"For more than a year now U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has been working on her image around the world," writes Shmuel Rosner, Washington correspondent for the Israeli daily Haaretz. "A year's worth of effort, and some worthy achievements, and then in two weeks of crisis everything is ruined. The Europeans, the ambassadors to the UN, the leaders of Arab states, all those who considered Rice a stabilizing factor, a calculated and reasonable person in the Bush administration, are reevaluating their stances."

"Still, the White House is not the State Department," Rosner adds. "It is less sensitive to the cries from Europe and a lot more attuned to the domestic political scene, where Israel has the advantage for the time being. The war in Lebanon is creating a warm political consensus. Senator Chuck Schumer (Democrat, NY), normally one of the administration's most vociferous critics, said yesterday 'he has no criticism for the president on this issue.'"

Where is the conflict headed?

It's not going well for Israel, said Alex Fishman of Israel's YNet News.

The decision to halt air strikes "is somewhat peculiar," he wrote Monday. "It grinds to a halt the momentum of pounding the Hizbullah and sets off the ceasefire process under the worst possible conditions for Israel." [Limited bombing by Israel continued Monday, with military leaders promising a full-scale resumption after the expiration of a 48-hour partial halt that was imposed after the Qana incident on Sunday.]

Israel's refusal to negotiate prisoner exchanges with Hezbollah and Hamas "is backfiring," says Palestinian commentator Ghassan Khatib on bitterlemons.org.

"Israel's decision not to trade Lebanese and Palestinain political prisoners for captured Israeli soldiers "is being used by political, military and religious organizations to further strengthen and enhance their popularity," he writes.

Israel's current strategy, if it does not change, will create new enemies, says Anthony Cordesman, military analyst for the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, a conservative think tank.

Israel, he says, entered the war "on deeply flawed grand strategic and tactical principles, and seems to have fought the ideological and political dimension on the basis of the perceptions of Israelis and Americans. The IAF and IDF have so far been clumsy in both air and artillery operations, and sought tactical advantage at serious risk of excessive civilian casualties and collateral damage. Military cultures do not change in mid-operation and the incredibly clumsy IDF and Israeli government response to Qana is a case in point. Israel will, however, have to learn in the future if it does not want to take a largely passive region and turn it into an active enemy."

Hezbollah has already won a political victory, says Haaretz's Akiva Eldar.

"Irrespective of when the war in the north ends, it already has claimed a place of honor in Arab victory albums, along with the Egyptian 'victory' in 1973. The political leadership is beginning to grasp that evenif we manage to send Hassan Nasrallah on the journey taken by Ahmed Yassin, Hezbollah (the Party of Allah), like Hamas, will not disappear from this world. Moreover, according to the plan Condoleezza Rice is carrying around, Hezbollah is expected to exit this war having extricated the Lebanese prisoners and the Shaba Farms from Israel, and still get to keep some of its arsenal."

But the Israelis remain defiant in the face of international condemnation, an attitude perhaps best exemplified by Ynet News columnist Guy Benyovits. "Sorry World," he writes. The world "slams barbarian Jews but forgets 7-year-old Israeli killed by Hizbullah rockets."

To justify the Qana strike, the Israeli foreign ministry provided video that it says shows Hezbollah firing rockets from Qana.

As Israeli ground operations in southern Lebanon widen, the prospects for a ceasefire anytime soon seem faint.

By Jefferson Morley |  August 1, 2006; 6:51 AM ET  | Category:  Mideast
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The atrocities committed by the racist and illegal zionist jewish regime in occupied Palestine shall unite all of humanity against this evil jewish empire to get rid of it once and for all and bring peace and harmony to the inhabitants of this planet.

The existence of this aparthied, racist and child killer regime simply cannot be reconciled with world peace and security. The savage, bloodthirsty Israelis cannot survie but on the blood of christian and moslem children of lebanon, Iraq, and Palestine. Its humanity's moral duty to stop these beasts NOW.

Posted by: American | August 1, 2006 07:39 AM

ISRAEL: "The death gift that keeps on giving"

Posted by: American | August 1, 2006 07:45 AM

I can see the comments now. They'll all be of the same theme,

"Isreal did it on purpose! because... because... ummm.... their EVIL!!!"

None to bright maybe (I'd use stronger language but the filter would probably stop me).

Apparently Bush and the Isrealis manage to do the worst possible thing every time.

Posted by: Duck | August 1, 2006 07:56 AM


[ISRAELIS vs ARABS
WHO ARE THE REAL TERRORISTS?
By: Hal Turner

North Bergen, NJ USA -- For years, we in America have supported Israel both financially and militarily because we perceived they were the innocent victims of hostile and violent neighbors. The US media has, for years, provided extensive coverage of every incident involving Arab-against-Israeli violence. From shootings, to car bombs to suicide bombers, we in America have seen it all. Or have we?

Why would rational human beings, given a choice, choose to attack their neighbors rather than live together in peace? More pertinent, why would a rational human being choose to blow himself up rather than live? The Israelis, the US media and our politicians would have us believe that the Arabs are simply not rational. They routinely tell us that Arabs are "religious fanatics" who "hate freedom" or "hate our way of life" to quote George W. Bush. These arguments are fallacious and intellectually bankrupt.

The reason for Arab against Israeli violence is simple: The Israelis have been systematically repressing and brutalizing hundreds of thousands of Arabs on a scale unparalleled since World War 2. I have the proof.

In the link below are photographs of the victims of Israeli violence. They depict brutal, violent death, horrific personal injury and devastation of property which is simply unfathomable. ALL of it was perpetrated by Israelis against Arabs. ALL of the victims are civilians.

As you view these pictures ask yourself this question: What would YOU or YOUR LOVED ONES do in retaliation for these things?...]

If you have the guts and want to see the Israeli terror and wholesale murder of children, please take a look at the following site (the source of the obove paragraph). Please be forewarned however- very graphic images of slaughtered children courtesy of your American tax dollar. Aren't you proud?!

http://www.halturnershow.com/IsraeliAtrocities.html


Posted by: printer | August 1, 2006 08:00 AM

Why is it that blogs and organizations all over the world have analyzed the pictures of Qana to show that they were staged but the major media like the Washington Post do not mention this? Remember the pictures of a "massacre" at a Palestinian refugee camp carried by all the media? It turned out in subsequent investigation that there never was a "massacre". Are the major media gullible or worse?

Posted by: Sidney | August 1, 2006 08:04 AM

Sidney,

The pictures of the massacre of qana were staged?
Why make a fool of yourself by making a statement like this? Clearly, you must be either: (1) a sick, morally depraved, bloodthirsty zionist..whose heart and mind are so blinded with hate that they cant distinguish between staged and real pictures of murdered children and women. If you're such a hateful wringworm zionist, why not ask your beloved condoleeza rice (the ugly face of the new unamerican america)to bring you a glass of lebanese or palestinian children blood? she was just in the region..so I am sure she would happily accomodate you.

or (2): you are a brainwashed GOY who has been fed israeli/zionist propaganda by the spoon from the zionist-controlled american media, but especially from the israeli horror propaganda machine (aka FOX NEWS)- likely ever since you opened your eyes. In this case, there is some hope for you to regain your humanity- but pending some serious debugging of your brain.

Posted by: birdman | August 1, 2006 08:19 AM

On the News Hour last night, they had a montage of newspaper headlines about Qana. The Irish Independent, a quite respectable Dublin paper, ran the headline: Babies Slaughtered in Their Sleep. Remember, this is not an Arab paper, but an Irish one. This atrocity, coupled with the fierce resistance Hezbollah has mounted, is going to mean decades more of bad blood in the Middle East.

Posted by: Jack | August 1, 2006 08:40 AM

Dear Sidney
I'm well aware of what a handful of bloggers in the United States are saying about the Qana photos. I'm not ignoring it. I'm just not persuaded by what I have read. There seems to be no factual basis for saying that the rescue worker in the photos is from Hezbollah. The issue of the time stamps on the photos needs closer examination.

The larger idea that the bloggers are floating--that the deaths of women and children at Qana was somehow foisted by Hezbollah on a gullible world--is, shall we say, less than persuasive. Imagine that the rescue worker in question had never been photographed. Would the world reaction to this tragedy be any different? The answer is certain: No.

Posted by: Jefferson Morley | August 1, 2006 08:40 AM

" a glass of lebanese or palestinian children blood"

ANaziSaysWhat?

Posted by: Knemon | August 1, 2006 08:45 AM

Jeff, thank you for bringing this world opinion roundup.
I don't think Qana is (or will be) a turning point in this conflict. It's saddly called collateral damage.
I predict Israel will lost this war, unless it invades Lebanon full scale! but, apparently, after losing 9 soldiers last week, Israel got cold feet and retreated... in fear of its own public opinion... Now they continue to pound Lebanon from the air... and Hezbollah, after 21 days of conflict, is still able to fire rockets to Haifa...
Hezbollah, Israel own demon, will still be there and...much much stronger.
Sadly, I don't believe an international force in southern Lebanon will fix the problem. Only the Lebanese governement can disarm the Hezbollah, and with 2 hezbollah ministers in the governement, it's going to be tricky. After kicking out the Syrians, the US and France should have re-arm and train the lebanese army... It might have help Lebanon with disarming Hezbollah.
The only solution is that Israel should retreat to the 67 (or the 48) borders... help establish (and recognize) a Palestinian state. It's painful, but I guess it's the only choice the Israelis have now - if they want to live in "peace"...

Posted by: ADP | August 1, 2006 09:00 AM

Israel is murdering palestenians for 60 years and no one said anything. Palestenians are tortured , humilated and harrased daily under occupation and when they react to aggression and they are called terrorists. Even if they are quiet , mozzad won't let them queit. They trigger the bomb on their own population to blame palestenians.

The plan is simple. Exterminate palestenians and capture the land slowly and slowly.

Same logic applied. The killing in qana was planned. They wanted to scare civilaind and make them flee , so they can flatten qana and occupy that land.

These kind of atrocity willbe never forgotten especially in the internet world where every one knows everything immediately. Next generation of muslim kids will be brought to destroy israel.

As melgibson said Israel are the cause for all wars last century and this one.

out of all non jew americans only he has the courage to speak up against then. Jews media tortured tom cruise for his tirade against jew brook shields. Now they are turning their guns on mel gibson.

Something seriously wrong with america. May be everyone catching BUSH's idiot disease. No one is using their brain.

Posted by: Alex | August 1, 2006 09:04 AM

Right on the money, Alex !

Good on you!

Posted by: Lina | August 1, 2006 09:09 AM

"The world "slams barbarian Jews but forgets 7-year-old Israeli killed by Hizbullah rockets." Really ? I do not believe the world does. I certainly do not. Sounds to me like the abuser become the victim once again.

I will never forget the Qana children. Neither will I ever forget who actually murdered them and how. I will never forget who has just destroyed Lebanon as Hiroshima was destroyed (seen the images for all to see, on tv?). It is not with lines like the one above that I will me made to forget. That kind of propaganda, only those who utter it can swallow it.

Be it said, once and for all, that a crime is a crime is a crime. The best a criminal can do is to take responsibility for his crimes. The worst a criminal can do is to hold others responsible (worst of all his victims) responsible for them.

Posted by: Robert Rose | August 1, 2006 09:24 AM

Sidney is right.

It is very likely that Qana was staged by Hezbolla and the deaths were not due to Israeli bombs/rockets.

Hezb is an evil organization with no compunction about waving dead bodies around and firing from civilian areas and blocking attempts of civilians from evacuating.
Why the 7 hour delay between Israeli strikes on missile launch sites in Qana and the building collapse?
Why are all dead males at Qana covered in sheets, but the dead women are uncovered and the dead children are waved around like rags?
Why were the press prevented from going near the collapsed building?

I know I sound like a 9-11 was an inside job type, but in this case, I think it is plausible that Hezb would do such horrible things. They have proven themselves to be that manipulative.

I hope that Israel ignores the public outcry (it isn't as though the Arabs or Europeans liked them before this event, so why should they care now?) and does what it can to recover a failing military intervention. If the Arabs and Euros wanted influence over Israel, they should be ready to see Israel's point of view(isn't that what everone criticizes Bush for not doing with Syria/Iran/NoKorea?).

Everyone says unilateralism and going it alone is bad; well, lets see who sends troops to south Lebanon to replace the colluding, useless UNIFIL and actually enforce 1559... Otherwise, France/the UN/and muslim countries should shut up and let Israel defend itself.

Posted by: John | August 1, 2006 09:42 AM

printer

thanks for that comment.

Posted by: bob | August 1, 2006 09:49 AM

"Among the dead were 37 children and a large number of women, according to the Lebanese health minister."

Are we to take this as meaning that few men were killed?

Where were the men? Were they out bowling or playing backgammon?

Is it possible that the husbands and fathers were outside and preparing to fire rockets at Israelis?

If this is the case then it would mean that the Hezbollah fighters decided to stay and fight rather than move their families out of harm's way.

Posted by: Murray | August 1, 2006 09:50 AM

The U.S. and Israel are like muscle bound behemoths: they don't know when to rein in their power. After at least a century and a half of modern era terrorism, starting with the nihilist and narodniki of Russia, imperial states still don't get it, even though their apparatchiks have coined the term, asymmetrical warfare. The more power a state uses against terrorist, the greater the asymmetry, which, unless every vestige of the terrorist is eliminated, results in victory for the terrorist. I imagine think tanks have calculated the ratio of the respective resources used by each side to produce a kill. In comparison to the imperialist state, I suspect terrorist get by on the cheap in respect to funds and materials used; their greatest resource is the great mass of disaffected youth in the third world. The question is whether the imperial powers will feel the pinch of the financial burden of asymmetrical warfare before the terrorists run out of willing martyrs? Israel's current offensive, for all the destruction it has wrought, only has succeeded in increasing the human arsenal of the terrorists; every bomb recruits a thousand more eager suicide bombers. If the cause of all this carnage was the abduction of a couple of soldiers, then the Israelis picked the wrong tool in their arsenal. They are known for their skill in counter terrorist raids using small groups of highly trained commandos; they are also very adept in surgical rocket strikes to eliminate high officials of terrorist organizations. Why did they unleash such relatively massive power in this instance? A big brute wins respect for using minimum force to fend off a drunk, pestering wimp in a bar, but would be roundly condemned if he beat the geek into a bloody pulp, regardless of how irritating the pest was (a principle of classic self-defense is minimum force it to be used). Israel, with the backing of the U.S. has proved to be a mindless thug, trading finesse for brutal force; score another victory for non-state over state terrorism.

Posted by: Chuck B. | August 1, 2006 10:02 AM

Some horrible truths that they don't want you to know.

The Zionists believe that all of greater Israel is theirs.

The Palestinians believe that all of greater Israel is theirs.

Neither side is willing to share; as far as they are concerned their 'right' to the land precludes anyone else from being there.

There can be no peace here.

This war isn't about who is being brutalized, both sides have brutalized each other. This war is being waged because neither side is willing to live with the other. It is all Israel's fault, its all the Palestinian's fault.

You know what the saddest part is? There really is enough land for both of them.

There is absolutely no reason why they can't live side-by-side or even in the same country besides utter foolishness.

Printer, you asked why rational human beings would attack their neighbors rather then live side-by-side and live in peace?

The answer is, they don't.

Rational people and states don't attack their neighbors but the problem here is none of these people is rational.

The Israelites are not rational but neither are the Palestinians.

Posted by: Duck | August 1, 2006 10:04 AM

Here is the best "one" could say to the flatworm zionists/savage, bloodthirsty israeli child killers and their pawns, the GOYIM....just to remind them of who they are:
"Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning...."
- St. John, viii, 44.

You have always had a verocious apetite for children's blood, especially christian children. who are you kidding?
clearly, you are very angry and very demoralized that the pictures of the massacres you are committing in lebanon are coming out to the whole world to see. It indicates that you are losing your mind and becoming compltely stupid evident by your talk of staged pictures and by your attempt to blame hizbolla for your own crimes against humanity. You could try, but in the end you will only be able to fool yourself.

Posted by: american | August 1, 2006 10:07 AM

For years I struggled to persuade my fellow Arabs that America was our ally. I now realize that I was wrong. America is not the ally of the Arab people. It is our enemy.

America has thrown its full weight behind Israel's scorched earth massacres, and the blood each and every one of those children of Qana is now on the hands of every American.

Posted by: Salim | August 1, 2006 10:08 AM

I'm as critical of Israel as I am of the US, but I think a little (only a little balance) needs to be brought in here. The difference between crass anti-semitism and legitimate, if harsh, criticism of the Israeli government must be maintained. All the blood-drinking, inflamatory rhetoric is counterproductive, racist, and wrong.

The facts speak for themselves. In the Lebanon war, as in the West Bank and Gaza, there are real Israeli casualities, most of them civilian and many of them children. But the vast majority of casualties, civilian and children again, are non-Israeli.

Israel seems to treat every relatively minor attack as an excuse to visit 10-fold suffering on the perpetrators and the civilians around them. As we can see, this approach only earns them more enemies, which then give them more excuses for Qana-style massacres.

It's quite possible that there are forces in Israeli politics who want to push this conflict into total regional war, which Israel would win easily. Or it could be a US-style mixture of this ideology with strategic and tactical incompetence. Either way, it's disasterous. And most importantly, it eliminates any claim Israel might have had to a moral high-ground.

There will always be ultra-Zionist panderers in the US. The rest of the world sees a little more clearly, though not without its various biases.

Bottom line, unless you favor the extermination of either all Jews or all non-Jews in the region, it's a complicated situtaion. The growing view of non-Jews that Hizbullah and Hamas are their best hopes is genuinely disturbing. But Israel seems to be doing everything it can to force the non-Jews of the Middle East to make a decision between subjugation and humiliation or fiery, glorious and stupid death.

Posted by: james | August 1, 2006 10:16 AM

DUCK ....Why should Lebanon "SHARE"?? THe Jews move in, take their land, and bleat that the displaced, killed, burtalized MID EAST should share. LET'S send some Iranians to your house to share.
AND....DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA how much love is going to flow to people like you, wherever they are, next?

Posted by: FURIOUS | August 1, 2006 10:24 AM

"It is very likely that Qana was staged by Hezbolla and the deaths were not due to Israeli bombs/rockets."

John, do us all a favour and get a grip on reality. Even the IDF swiftly apologized and promised an investigation. They know what they did and there's no way around it. How did Hezbollah drop a bomb from the sky without any fighter jets or warplanes?

It's like me saying "Oh, the rockets that are fired in Israel are actually fired by Mossad / IDF to make everyone think it's from Hamas / Hezbollah..." Give me a break.

Stop trying to deflect and distract criticism from a tragic event by making up conspiracies.

Remember how some people said 9/11 was the work of the Jewish Intelligence Agency and how everyone laughed? That's about how your statement looks right about now unless there is SOME evidence to back it up.

Posted by: KJ | August 1, 2006 10:25 AM

for "James".
WHY SHOULD the difference between crass anti-semitism and criticism of Israel be maintained? Frirst of all-- it won't be. And second, it's the Israel first neocons and AIRPAC, etc., in the Unite States that hijacked foreign policy under this dismal president. I fear, too, but let the future roll.

Posted by: | August 1, 2006 10:28 AM

"Are we to take this as meaning that few men were killed?

Where were the men? Were they out bowling or playing backgammon?"

Murray - Men don't just sit around at home with the women and children all day. Like any other nation in this world, they go out and work. Again, you're taking a tragedy and trying to twist it into some major conspiracy like other people on this board.

Seeing as how the attack on the village was somewhat unexpected, the men were most likely out at jobs or looking for someplace more secure for their family. (Yes, there were leaflets dropped warning that nobody is safe, but, nobody figured they would drop a bomb right on a village.)

Posted by: KJ | August 1, 2006 10:28 AM

James,
Someone who brings their family to reside on the ruins of your home is not civilian, anyway you look at it. Please have some moral clarity here. If a chinese or russian..or whatever family came to the US, killed my family and built their own home on its ruins, I would eliminate them all as they are killer invaders. I am sure you would turn your other cheek, james- should this happen to you..Or am I wrong on that one?
Lets not fall prey for the zionist/israeli propaganda and adpot thier views here.

Posted by: american | August 1, 2006 10:29 AM

"DUCK ....Why should Lebanon "SHARE"??"

Did I ever mention Lebanon?

"THe Jews move in, take their land, and bleat that the displaced, killed, burtalized MID EAST should share. "

This is why I said, "They don't want you to know."

What you just spounted is propaganda, It is a lie.

"LET'S send some Iranians to your house to share."

Well first it was a Lebonese, right now its a Pakistani sharing my house. Nice people, both of them.

I haven't had an Iranian yet, but who knows, maybe the next one will be.

Perhaps as an American I have the wrong mindset. The thought of someone who is a different race or religion living next door or even renting a room in my house doesn't bother me much. It certinally doesn't fill me with horror.

Of course I can turn your question around, why should Isreal bother sharing land with the palistineans?

"AND....DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA how much love is going to flow to people like you, wherever they are, next?"

Let me guess, you don't agree with me so you are going to try and kill me?

As I said, irrational.

Posted by: Duck | August 1, 2006 10:36 AM

"Remember how some people said 9/11 was the work of the Jewish Intelligence Agency and how everyone laughed? That's about how your statement looks right about now unless there is SOME evidence to back it up." by KJ

Only difference is that the role of israel and AIPAC in 9/11 is no laughable conspiracy.
Take a look at the link below for a nice read. This is not an opinion piece, but rather a set of easily verifiable facts. See for yourself. I am absolutely certain that if you bother to read it (anc Check out the facts for yourself) that You will NOT be laughing afterwards.

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/WTC_STF.htm

Keep in mind, there is a big..difference between a conspiracy and a set of verifiable FACTS, isn't there?


Here is the Link again for Israel and AIPAC role in facilitating 9/11.

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/WTC_STF.htm

Posted by: american | August 1, 2006 10:41 AM

DUCK,
You seem to have the brains of, well..a duck. You either have a very low level of education, or you're just a plain fool. Makes it hard to respond to you in any meaningful way..because you truly lack the minimum basic requirement of elemntary knowledge of the subject matter but more dangerously- you don't seem to have much intelect to get you anywhere. I will (later) have a set of books for you that you should read before you come here and waste your time..and take space on this blog. May be then you just might have something valuable to contribute.

Posted by: mexin | August 1, 2006 10:51 AM

So, american-

What is your solution? How would you resolve all these conflicts? What is your plan to bring justice and peace to all parties?

Posted by: wiccan | August 1, 2006 10:57 AM

I am somewhat surprised at those who continue to insist in this new world of asymmetrical warfare that the only answer is total victory through overwhelming force. IQs in this country and in particular among our ruling class must have diminished in dramatic fashion.

The present war in Israel and Lebanon is no different than the American experience in Iraq. All of this shock and awe type thinking will only lead to a protracted period of the same sort of asymmetrical violence that we are seeing in Iraq.

If you are really interested in what is happening to the world you should read some of the recent historical work being done by professionals within the security and intelligence communities on the evolution of Al Quaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas and other terror groups and of the mercurial, charismatic men who run those organizations. You are likely to find that their evolution has less to do with ideology and hatred of freedom and democracy than a visceral response to the American military presense in that region and the perception that America and Israel are alligned in a Jewish/Christian crusade against Islam.

Posted by: Jaxas | August 1, 2006 10:58 AM

To " ":

You answer your own question very well. It is possible and right to point out the wrongs of the governments of Israel and the US (separately or combined), and to criticise their empire-building or expansionist angendas, as you do. It is also possible to do this while wishing that no harm comes to any American, Israeli, Jew, Muslim, Druze, etc.

There are people of all stripes with good and evil intentions and opinions. My concern is not whether someone is part of any national or religious category, but with the actions they carry out or actively support. This goes for Hizbullah as much as it does for the Israeli government. IMO Both are equally in the wrong, though Israel deserves extra censure for using its greater might to do greater harm.

I might be of Jewish descent on my father's side. My avid geneologist (but slightly anti-semitic) mother never looked into his family tree, or at least never told us what she found, so I don't know. I doesn't matter to me much one way or the other. But the possibility makes it easy for me to see the difference between being Jewish and being a supporter of the Israeli government. Neither has anything to do with the other except in ideology which can be rejected or accepted.

Posted by: james | August 1, 2006 10:59 AM

Thank you Mexin for those comments.

Out of curiosity, am I a fool because I mindlessly swallow the lies of the evil Zionist state or because I am supporting the brutal Palestinian terrorists?

Posted by: Duck | August 1, 2006 11:01 AM

For people who like to be known as the victims of the Holocaust, people who have suffered as they like to remind people on a daily basis, they sure are acting exactly like their oppressors. Senseless assassinations of innocents, children, women, senseless destruction. The worst of it is that they claim that they are trying to destroy Hezbollah, but how many members of Hezbollah have they actually killed amongst the more then 500 innocents who have died so violently? They are bombing bridges to cut off these poor people's escape routes, television stations. No more cell phones, no more TV, what does that have to do with Hezbollah? What is going to remain when everything is over? This is ridiculous and the shame of it is that the US backs them up in this parody when the rest of the world says let's stop killing first and talk later, they say no, let's keep killing while we are talking.
No evil deed goes unpunished. That's all I gotta say.

Posted by: Nor Arab nor Jew | August 1, 2006 11:02 AM

For people who like to be known as the victims of the Holocaust, people who have suffered as they like to remind people on a daily basis, they sure are acting exactly like their oppressors. Senseless assassinations of innocents, children, women, senseless destruction. The worst of it is that they claim that they are trying to destroy Hezbollah, but how many members of Hezbollah have they actually killed amongst the more then 500 innocents who have died so violently? They are bombing bridges to cut off these poor people's escape routes, television stations. No more cell phones, no more TV, what does that have to do with Hezbollah? What is going to remain when everything is over? This is ridiculous and the shame of it is that the US backs them up in this parody when the rest of the world says let's stop killing first and talk later, they say no, let's keep killing while we are talking.
No evil deed goes unpunished. That's all I gotta say.

Posted by: Nor Arab nor Jew | August 1, 2006 11:02 AM

"What is your solution? How would you resolve all these conflicts? What is your plan to bring justice and peace to all parties?" by wiccan

Solution? quite simple- as a matter of fact.
Undo the injustice and the moral wrong done by creating an illegal state (israel) for european zionists in the heart of the arab/moslem world. If the jews like to live and play by the rules of the rightful owners of the land, I am sure they can. Otherwise, get the hell out of there.

Posted by: american | August 1, 2006 11:03 AM

Israel holds those lands by manifest ursurpation. Should all lands that have been usurped be returned to their prior inhabitants? Got your bags packed?

Posted by: wiccan | August 1, 2006 11:16 AM

Everyone seems to be missing the point that this bout of "spring-cleaning" was set in motion by Olmert et al when they and their aipac supporters formented the plan to "Starve Hamas" ......no rational person could think this would or could have any possible good ending.

The Idf has been waiting for years to take on HB and Olmerts weakness was the perfect opportunity for them....today the IAF attacked a relief truck at the Lebanese/Syrian border...how long before they attack a Syrian target and claim it was "self defense" or a "mistake" or a "pre-emptive" strike?

The Israeli military need wars to prove their value to society and justify the massive defense spending (and handouts). Also the likud/kadima types would have no role in an Israel at peace with its neighbours which is why every time things are moving in a positive direction they find a way to set things back.

If Israel withdrew to 1967 borders I think they would have that peace within 10 years.

Unfortunately I don't think it will ever happen unless the US stops its unconditional support of the insane policies of the Israeli right.

Posted by: Angus | August 1, 2006 11:19 AM

Excellent point, wiccan. Despite the violence in their foundations, Israel is as much a fixture of the world as the US. Wishing either away is foolish and impossible. Working to change their policies as states is not. It may be extremely hard, but it's possible, and the most positive thing we can do in the situation.

Posted by: james | August 1, 2006 11:26 AM

Yeah, List those lands for me, wiccan boy.

How many "countries" came about based on some UN resolution and some dirty political manuevering?
Read your history and you will no.
More importantly, how many countries were implanted in the midst of some other region/country...like the cancer that is israel? If you can come up with the creation of ONE country that is similar to that id israel's, I will concede to you. You too seem to need some extensive eucation on the subject.

Posted by: american | August 1, 2006 11:26 AM

Excellent point, wiccan. Despite the violence in their foundations, Israel is as much a fixture of the world as the US. Wishing either away is foolish and impossible. Working to change their policies as states is not. It may be extremely hard, but it's possible, and the most positive thing we can do in the situation.

Posted by: james | August 1, 2006 11:27 AM

Yeah, List those lands for me, wiccan boy.

How many "countries" came about based on some UN resolution and some dirty political manuevering?
Read your history and you will know.
More importantly, how many countries were implanted in the midst of some other region/country...like the cancer that is israel? If you can come up with the creation of ONE country that is similar to that of israel's, I will concede to you. You too seem to need some extensive eucation on the subject.

Posted by: american | August 1, 2006 11:28 AM

In response to what I wrote above, KJ wrote, "Murray - Men don't just sit around at home with the women and children all day. Like any other nation in this world, they go out and work. Again, you're taking a tragedy and trying to twist it into some major conspiracy like other people on this board."

KJ! The bombing took place at 01:00, a time when most men are home from work. If relatively few main died then the chances are that they were Hezbollah fighters and busy fighting Israel.

Posted by: Murray | August 1, 2006 11:28 AM

"Yeah, List those lands for me, wiccan boy."

Well the United States comes to mind. We userped our land from Mexico, Spain, England, not to mention the natives.

Come to think of it, All the countries in the americas would fall under that.

Parts of spain were once under Arab control.

Thats all I can think of off the top of my head.

Posted by: Duck | August 1, 2006 11:33 AM

Why is the US and the Israeli Goverment insisting on implementation of UN Res. 1559? There are several outstanding UN Resolutions concerning Israeli misbehavior, like 242.

Also, Keep in mind that it took Israel 22 YEARS to leave Lebanon when Resolution 425 insisted it be done immediately.

UN resolutions are useless if we only insist on enforcing the ones we want to and pretend the others don't exist.

Posted by: Thom | August 1, 2006 11:33 AM

Lebanese website blames Hizbullah for Qana deaths

Anti-Syrian elements in Lebanon openly point finger at Hizbullah as guilty of killing of dozens of civilians in order to curtail plans for disarming group. 'Hizbullah has placed rocket launcher on building's roof and brought invalid children inside in bid to provoke Israeli response,' they write
Roee Nahmias

Is Hizbullah behind the tragic incident in the village of Qana that claimed the lives of some 60 people? While the Israeli army continues to investigate the circumstances leading to the building's collapse, some in Lebanon do not hesitate to point the finger at the Shiite organization and claim it is to blame for the death of dozens.

The Lebanese website LIBANOSCOPIE http://www.libanoscopie.com/fulldoc....code=994&cat=2, associated with Christian elements in the country and which openly supports the anti-Syrian movement called the "March 14 Forces," reported that Hizbullah has masterminded a plan that would result in the killing of innocents in the Qana village, in a bid to foil Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora's "Seven Points Plan", which calls for deployment of the Lebanese army in southern Lebanon and the disarming of Hizbullah.

'Disabled children placed inside building'

"We have it from a credible source that Hizbullah, alarmed by Siniora's plan, has concocted an incident that would help thwart the negotiations. Knowing full well that Israel will not hesitate to bombard civilian targets, Hizbullah gunmen placed a rocket launcher on the roof in Qana and brought disabled children inside, in a bid to provoke a response by the Israeli Air Force. In this way, they were planning to take advantage of the death of innocents and curtail the negotiation initiative," the site stated.

Posted by: Miriam | August 1, 2006 11:34 AM

poor murray, trying (in vain) to dispute the indsiputable fact that the subhuman savage israelis are child killer since ever. keep trying, you certainly got your work cut out for you. Its becoming harder and harder for you to deceive us, is it not? Your death grip on the information that people can access these days is slipping from your hands faster than you can fabricate another bold face lie.

Posted by: Osama ben Fenklestein | August 1, 2006 11:35 AM

poor murray and miriam, trying (in vain) to dispute the indsiputable fact that the subhuman savage israelis are child killer since ever. keep trying, you certainly got your work cut out for you. Its becoming harder and harder for you to deceive us, is it not? Your death grip on the information that people can access these days is slipping from your hands faster than you can fabricate another bold face lie.


Posted by: Osama ben Fenklestein | August 1, 2006 11:37 AM

Q: Why is the US and the Israeli Goverment insisting on implementation of UN Res. 1559? There are several outstanding UN Resolutions concerning Israeli misbehavior, like 242.

Also, Keep in mind that it took Israel 22 YEARS to leave Lebanon when Resolution 425 insisted it be done immediately.

UN resolutions are useless if we only insist on enforcing the ones we want to and pretend the others don't exist.


A: General Assembly Resolutions are not binding under international law, but Security Council Resolutions are. R 242 was agreed to by both the Palestinian Authority and Israel to be the basis of negotiations for a lasting settlement. It was the guiding principle of land of peace used for the Camp David Accords and Taba. The two sides could not agree on some of the most basic provisions in the negotiations. R 1559 is a Security Council Resolution, so it carries the weight of international law. It should be enforced for the good of both countries so that this can be avoided in the future, but it's naive for anyone to think that a group like Hizballah can be taken out militarily.

Posted by: Miriam | August 1, 2006 11:41 AM

I heard the Israeli Ambassador to the UN say very similar things to what Miriam just wrote about the disaster at Qana. I couldn't believe his "chutzpah" at the time, and I really can't beleive that ANYONE with two brain cells functioning would accept it.
People are really willing to beleive anything at all if it helps their skewed view of the world in general and specifically Israeli aggressions against impoverished, now homeless and some (more everyday) lifeless civilians.

Posted by: | August 1, 2006 11:48 AM

Israel should retreat to the 67 border, and help establish and recognize a Palestinian state. It will be painful for them, but that's the only solution.
This war is not going anywhere... Israel will fail...
I can't believe that Israel is going to accept an international coercive force under french command! That will be a first for the Israelis who really dislike France...

Posted by: ADP | August 1, 2006 11:49 AM

Yoo hoo! Osama

Where were the men at 01:00 while their wives and children were sleeping.

Read my original post. You may find it enlightening.

Posted by: Murray | August 1, 2006 11:49 AM

Perhaps in the Amazon jungle lands are still inhabited by their original tribes, but I doubt it. But that's not your point, is it?

My point is that Israel ain't going nowhere. There is no practical way to relocate those people, and where would you put them? Antartica? (Then the penguins would hate the Jews.)

Let us deal with reality. Foster the two-state solution, and learn to live and let live.

Posted by: wiccan | August 1, 2006 11:50 AM

For "Osama ben Fenklestein." You can shout Zionazi a thousand times and I don't care. I am actually not supportive of the scope of Israel's military campaign in Lebanon. What happened was a tragedy, but there is a very real possibility that it was a tragedy that was encouraged by the actions of Hizballah, which is a very problematic organization. The more civilians counted as dead, the stronger they get as an organization.

Posted by: Miriam | August 1, 2006 11:53 AM

Miriam: "General Assembly Resolutions are not binding under international law, but Security Council Resolutions are."

Both 242 and 245 were Security council resolutions.

22 years for 245 to be enacted, and then Three years later violated again

It has been almost 40 years since 242 and virtually nothing has been done for it.

Way to destroy your own argument

Posted by: Thom | August 1, 2006 11:53 AM

["I heard the Israeli Ambassador to the UN say very similar things to what Miriam just wrote about the disaster at Qana. I couldn't believe his "chutzpah" at the time, and I really can't beleive that ANYONE with two brain cells functioning would accept it.
People are really willing to beleive anything at all if it helps their skewed view of the world in general and specifically Israeli aggressions against impoverished, now homeless and some (more everyday) lifeless civilians."] by anonymous

Thank you for this post.
She should be embarrased to quote from a site like libanoscope and from a zionist writer (Roee Nahmias). Compare the libanoscope site with this site: http://www.judeoscope.ca. the zionsit writer appears on both sites and both sites writeen in similar language? coinsidence? WHAT HATEFUL ZIONIST PROPAGANDA!

I guess some people would go to whatever length to put a human face on the subhuman, child killer savage israelis and their terrorist, illegal jewish state.

Posted by: american | August 1, 2006 11:57 AM

Hi Thom,

I responded specifically to R 242 and stated that both sides agreed to be bound by the terms, which were the basis of negotiations at Camp David and Taba. Negotiations broke down when the two sides could not agree to a peace agreement for a two state solution. Implementation for 242 requires both sides for implementation. As for UN Resolutions on Israel and Lebanon, Israel left Lebanon and it was acknowledged by the UN.

Posted by: Miriam | August 1, 2006 12:04 PM

Yoo Hoo Murray.
Where were the men in
Quana? Fighting. Like they shouldn't defend themsleves and their nation?

PS. NONE of your posts are enlightening. Just typically stupid.

Posted by: yoohootoo | August 1, 2006 12:07 PM

Yoo Hoo! Murray.
You seem to think it was illegal or somehow wrong for the men in Qana to be defending themselves!...fighting Israeli invaders. Only the Israelis get to fight? Not even joking, it's a mindset you've been taught. Never ceases to astound the rest of us.


Posted by: yoohootoo | August 1, 2006 12:21 PM

James,

I think you are to something. Why would Israel launch such a massive strike on Lebanon in response to the kidnapping of a couple of its soldiers? The kidnappings were, most likely, not the cause of the invasion, but, rather, the excuse, just as 9/11 was the excuse for the Bush administration to invade Iraq. With the skill and ability of the Israelis in launching commando raids, it is hard to believe that they couldn't have mounted a successful raid to recover the captives. However, Israel's offensive is not to force the captives to be given up; the captives have been written off. It is a retaliatory revenge action to punish and cow a whole population, which is considered a war crime. However, we know that only the vanquished ever pay the penalty for war crimes, not the victors or the clients of the world's only superpower.

Posted by: Chuck B. | August 1, 2006 12:22 PM

yes, yoohootoo..

As you can see, the vicious zionists are "flocking" together here like the pack of wild dogs that they are trying to defend the murder of children by the terrorist jewish state.It just shows the kind of merciless child killers that they are and have always been. Must be so difficult for them to live in their own skin. No wonder that no human being was or will ever be able to stand them.

Posted by: printer | August 1, 2006 12:25 PM

miriam,
242 does not mention two sides. It calls for the recognition of each belligerent party by the others. It calls for Isreal to leave all occupied territory, which the did for one contry. They are still in Syria's territory, the have Lebanese territory, the have Jordanian Territory, and though they left Sinai, they kept the Gaza Strip from Egypt.
The resloution passed UNANIMOUSLY in the Council, and was reaffirmed by Security Council Resolution 338 after six years and the Yom Kippur War.

Also, how can you use the past tense when you say "Israel left Lebanon?" It seems to me that going north from Israel with tanks airplanes and an army, is not leaving, but is called invading.

Perhaps if we enforced UN Resolutions in ascending order, there might be a sense of fairness, instead of the bitterness we are fomenting now.

Posted by: Thom | August 1, 2006 12:27 PM

"Never Again!!!" or more likely "Here We Go Again"!

Every 7 or 8 years we hear the Israeli battle cry "Never Again!" and another show of military might begins. The Israeli military juggernaut is supreme when it comes to destroying its neighbors infrastructure and economic viability. But so far, it has failed to destroy resistance to its policies,the will of its enemies or bring peace to the region.

Some would argue that the very poverty and economic hopelessness that these major Israeli attacks create will continue to foster the emnity and extremism in the Arab population. Such conditions are being created in Lebanon today.

Will this conflict continue on? Almost definitely! The UN Security Council cannot act. The US veto guarantees that. Can Israel be militarily or economically defeated? Impossible while the United States continues to support Israel.

I suspect this war will only end when the United States perceives that is in its economic interest to stabilize the region and it has the political strength at home to impose conditions for a settlement. Until then, we will continue to hear "Never Again!" every 7-8 years.

Posted by: Oscar | August 1, 2006 12:30 PM

The lying, cowardly, Hezbollah kissers are coming out of the woodwork on command. Well, Hezbollah sets up their weapons deliberately in civilian areas, uses ambulances for troop and weapon transports, and deliberately fires into civilian areas where there are no Israeli miliraty targets. Yet when Israel shoots back, from the woodwork come the terrorist apologisers, holocaust deniers, and moral equivicators to slander Israel. Would the US tolerate someone on our borders rocketing us day and night? And if Israel evacuates her civilians to shelters, why would Hezbollah not do the same? The answer is, every dead civilian on either side is a tragedy to Israel and to the civilized world, but every dead civilian on either side is a celebration for Hezbollah and her backers, and something to wave proudly on television. For the sake of the civilized world I hope Israel wins this and that the democratic and free nations of the world back her to the hilt. The little slimeballs who come out of the woodwork to jump on the pro-whatever-terrorist-group-it-is-this-week bandwagon whenever there is a war invlving Israel can crawl back under their rocks.

Quick question: If the Hezbollah folks won there, where would they want to go and attack next? Think about it. Think hard.

Posted by: Jersey Dave | August 1, 2006 12:38 PM

".... when you repeatedly let such obviously hateful anti-semtic comments by American appear on your discussion you make it hard to believe that you are not sympathetic to that point of view" -true(i.e.FALSE)american

First, like all zionists who call themselves americans, you are such a thieve- you are not even above stealing other people's names. You must be some AIPAC agent trying to silence people here. Second: No body cares anymore about your anti-semite epithets. No body is calling for nuknig israel or the jews as many zionists like you have done on this post advocating nuking the M.E. Just stating the truth, which seems to burn yout buttom. If you are such an ardent zionist, why don't you go and relocate to the hills of the west bank? May there you will get yourself a palestinian stone in the forehead. It just might knock some sense into you and set you straight.
Stop crying about your BS anti-semitism. If you want to be loved, try to do something lovable. Worthless Ringworm.

Posted by: american | August 1, 2006 12:38 PM

"What happened was a tragedy, but there is a very real possibility that it was a tragedy that was encouraged by the actions of Hizballah, which is a very problematic organization. The more civilians counted as dead, the stronger they get as an organization."

Murray and Miriam, your attempts to deflect blame on to the victims of the Qana tragedy is even more morally reprehensible than those who call 911 a conspiracy. This is going to be the only time I respond to your vulgar and morally bankrupt comments.

It is an enlightening glimpse into your thought process that you are using the same line of reasoning some extremists in the Muslim world use to blame 911 on the Jews. After all who gained most from the 911 attacks? There has been a surge in anti-Muslim/Arab sentiment since then. Muslims in the U.S are afraid to even talk politics with their family members overseas because they are afraid of being profiled and harassed by the FBI under the Bush Administration's illegal measures. The U.S has attacked two Muslim countries, and because of 911, there are people in the U.S who just cannot see past their hatred of all things Arab/Muslim and therefore blindly support and justify any Israeli (or any anti-Muslim/Arab) brutality that occurs.


Not that it will matter to people who are so obviously devoid of any humanistic values, but if you knew anything of Muslim society and culture, you would realize that men and women who are not related to each other do not typically share the same quarters. With so many women and children living and sleeping in close quarters (in the basement hoping to be safe from Israeli bombing), the men would have sheltered elsewhere. It is also entirely possible that the men in a display of chivalry let the women and children use the limited space in the basement of the building, a seemingly secure and safe haven for their wives, mothers, daughters and sons.

Posted by: Zain | August 1, 2006 12:38 PM

Exactly.

Posted by: Chuck B. | August 1, 2006 12:39 PM

They would not attack anywhere. The only reason they exist is to resist the territorially expansionist Israelis. Remove the threat, and they will collapse.

that means Israel should stop attacking, not be annihilated.

Posted by: Thom | August 1, 2006 12:40 PM

Oscar,

Exactly.

Posted by: Chuck B. | August 1, 2006 12:40 PM

Well, "american", you have rebuked us all very nicely. You still haven't told us what your solution would be to gain peace in the ME. Is it the destruction of the State of Israel? And all Israelis can either leave or die? Am I close?

Posted by: wiccan | August 1, 2006 12:44 PM

Didn't the Israeli Justice Minister say that everyone in southern Lebanon was a terrorist and was condemned to death? If that isn't a statement of intent to kill the civilians at Qana, I don't know what is. Israel has long believed in targeting civilians. Ben Gurion said so much in his diary. Begin also admitted to it.

The whole Oslo process system revolved around targeting Palestinian civilians for the purposes of "discipline"; one Palestinian kills a Jew, and the whole Occupied Territories get "locked down", disrupting the lives of all the people. This is supposed to remind the people to stop any potential killers of Jews before they strike. "Collective punishment" is a term often described for this.

This of course does not always reach the level of massacres but the principle is the same. Besides, this kind of thing is going on in Gaza now; first the siege designed to punish people for voting for the wrong party. Now, killings and destruction to punish the taking of the prisoner.

The reason Israel targets civilians as a policy is partly due to sadism and racism, as from a psychologically of view it is very insulting to someone to have their police stations bombed and then be told to do the bombers' bidding as Arafat was told by Bush and Sharon in 2001.

It's like when you own a slave, whip the slave and then order the slave to continue working for you. In a sense, the Israelis and Bush see the Arabs as slaves, as owned by Israel. From an Arab point of view, this is extremely insulting and psychologically, it becomes essential to defy Israel to assert that they are not Israel's slaves. When Arafat did this, of course, Bush claimed he was total evil, to be isolated and destroyed.

I think it amuses the Israelis to see the Arabs as their slaves, to do their bidding. Then there is laziness; Hizbullah is too elusive, too difficult to destroy. It's easier to destroy civilians in order to pressure them into somehow getting rid of Hizbullah.

So bearing all this in mind, I find it amazing to see people claim that civilians die in Lebanon because of Israeli "mistakes" or because Hizbullah must be hiding among the people. As Israel's intelligence on Hizbullah is pathetic, how can they know where they are? These people so willing to lap up Israeli propaganda insist on ignoring the words of the Justice Minister, the words of Ben Gurion and Begin and the entire history of the State of Israel and its favourite policy of collective punishment.

Posted by: r | August 1, 2006 12:49 PM

Look, Nobody here, and nobody in his right mind wants the destruction of Israel.
However, it has become very clear that her response to aggression does not work.
If it did, then after 1948 all attacks would have ceased.

It is time for a change of policy. Attacks and misunderstanding bring resentment and more attacks. Got it?

Posted by: Thom | August 1, 2006 12:51 PM

From CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/01/mideast.main/index.html

"Meanwhile, the United Nations said it has not had much success getting aid into southern Lebanon during Israel's self-declared 48-hour lull in fighting.

"We did not achieve much," spokesman Khaled Mansour said. The United Nations asked Israel to allow three convoys through with about 30 trucks, but Israel denied permission for two of them, he said."

The oh so benevolent Israeli's. I suppose the U.N is also controlled by Syria and Iran in Israeli eyes (A view the neo-cons in the U.S probably do believe). Food and medicine for injured women and children, how dare they try!

Posted by: Zain | August 1, 2006 12:52 PM

OK, Zain, what's your solution? What do we do to bring peace to the ME?

Posted by: wiccan | August 1, 2006 12:56 PM

WICCAN....NO NO! It's the Israelis who drop leaflets and tell the Lebanese to leave or die. You mean that isn't nice?

Posted by: | August 1, 2006 12:57 PM

"Well, "american", you have rebuked us all very nicely. You still haven't told us what your solution would be to gain peace in the ME. Is it the destruction of the State of Israel? And all Israelis can either leave or die? Am I close?"- by wiccan

No, wiccan. You are not close. Your mind, however, just might be (close[d]).
Had you read my reply (with an open mind) you would have noticed that israelis would not have to leave or die. I stated very clearly that the choice would be theirs. They can either chose to live in the country of the rightful owners/inhabitants of the land and play by their rules, or..they could chose to get the hell out of there. They could easily come and live here in the good old us of a. My tax money is going to them (welfare) anyway- whether they live here or in someone else's land in the middle east. At least my alternative would bring some peace, justice, and security to the world instead of this unending bloodshed that has been caused by the failed evil jewish/zionist empire.
If you don't see the difference between this and what you are trying to say in your post- I am afraid I wouldn't be able to clarify it any further for you. You might as well then go back to your cheap sofa and listen to your tv talk heads..have them fell/ poisin your mind with their zionist propaganda while you're enjoying your cheep K-Mart popcorn and "Cheez It".

Posted by: american | August 1, 2006 01:01 PM

Yoohootoo wrote: "You seem to think it was illegal or somehow wrong for the men in Qana to be defending themselves!...fighting Israeli invaders. Only the Israelis get to fight? Not even joking, it's a mindset you've been taught. Never ceases to astound the rest of us."

Dear Rest of Us,

Hezbollah has chosen to "defend" themselves by firing unguided rockets and missiles at populated areas in Israel.

In doing so Hezbollah has murdered a minimum of three Arab children in Israel in the past little while. Only their poor aim has limited the number of deaths of civilians, both Arab and Jew.

The point that I have consistently tried to make is that if few men were killed in relationship to the number of women in Qana, that it is very likely that their husbands chose to fight rather than ensure that their families were safe.

The men are indeed to be commended for their sense of duty in fighting their enemy, but if they chose to fight rather than to ensure that their wives and children were safe, it was obviously an unwise choice and one that I am confident they (but not you) will regret.

Posted by: Murray | August 1, 2006 01:02 PM

Jersey Dave,

Being critical of Israel's actions does not make one a holocaust denier or an anti-Semite. The holocaust happened. It was a terrible event. No one should ever forget it, but it, also, should not be used as a defense by Zionists for war crimes, illegal acts, inhumane acts, stealing land, etc. It is ironic that the perpetrators of the holocaust and their lackeys were predominantly Europeans. What penalty has Germany (other than punishing a few for war crimes), Poland or any other European country paid for the holocaust? Instead of taking, say, Bavaria and giving it to the Jews as a national homeland, the Jews were cavalierly given the land of a people who had not participated in the holocaust, and, by the way, are fellow Semites (it is laughable when Arabs are labeled anti-Semites). Another irony is that creation of a Jewish state has partially contributed to the almost complete realization of one of the Nazi's primary goals, i.e., the elimination of Jews from Europe (of course this is not the only cause as emigration to the U.S and other countries has played a huge part).

Posted by: Chuck B. | August 1, 2006 01:03 PM

Thom, I am not going to get into a legal discussion about implementation of 242. People can do their homework on the resolution and figure it out for themselves what it means for the two sides to live with defensible borders, peace and security.

Again, I'm not impressed with Israel's military strategy for handling Hizballah. I think they should have refused to negotiate, they should have hit a few targetted Hizballah areas in the South and pressed the international community on Hizballah and Iran and Syria's influence. I don't think Hizballah can be taken out militarily, or at least not in a limited campaign like this and it isn't worth it because of the damage to civilian infrastreucture and loss of life, which is happening on bot sides. But something does need to be done about Hizballah. This incident was a tragedy, but Hizballah benefits from this kind of tragedy and that is the truth. Saying so doesn't make me inhumane or some kind of a nazi. Even the UN has told Hizballah to stop their cowardly acts of using civilians as human shields. A lot of the people on these forums live in a a very black and white world and your hatred is intense and obvious.

for those who don't understand Hizballah's tactics:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html

Posted by: Miriam | August 1, 2006 01:14 PM

The charge of anti-semitism is the bullet proof vest that these Zionist have. Any criticism of Israel is automatically labeled anti-semitic. Israel and it's supporters in the States (i.e. AIPAC and the Evangelicals) have filled the pockets of US lawmakers in return for weapons of mass destruction. And lets not forget the green light to slaughter as many muslim and christian children as they can. Who is the real TERRORIST. I mean we say the word enought in the States. Have we just forgot the meaning of it?

Posted by: New Yorker | August 1, 2006 01:14 PM

Wiccan,

My solution (This has been articulated best by J, Karim, Notice and others) is that we stop doing what we have been for the past 60 years; blindly supporting all Israeli policy in the Middle East. Israel has taken the stance that it will not negotiate until all violence stops. That is an unrealistic expectation and dooms any peace process before it starts. There is no way for a cash strapped occupied people living in ghetto like conditions to enforce such blanket authority. Israel needs to negotiate without pre-conditions with Fateh (specifically Abu Mazen) and the political leadership of Hamas that is willing to accept Israel within the 1967 borders (The Arab states have already indicated that they will recognize Israel as long as it retreats to the 67 borders). It needs to dismantle ALL settlements that exist in Arab territory within the 67 borders and allow the Palestinian state to come into existence even as negotiations continue to disarm the various armed groups. An arms embargo can be imposed on the state to ensure that these groups do not re-arm themselves. Groups like Hamas exist because of the occupation; they remain popular and command support and respect because of the occupation. Once the occupation is gone, the Palestinians will focus on making their own state prosperous and these groups will die out. Sporadic violence will probably still continue, perpetrated by rogue elements, but I believe even that can be contained to a very large extent by the Palestinians themselves provided Israel does not react in the heavy handed and brutal way it typically does.

We need to try something different than just attempting to beat a people into submission. It has not worked for the last sixty years and will not work.

Posted by: Zain | August 1, 2006 01:16 PM

Thank you, "american", for clarifying your solution. Now, do you think it has a hope in hell of being adopted?

Posted by: wiccan | August 1, 2006 01:18 PM

The people of Qana were poor and could not afford the petrol to leave their village so they found the safest building for the children, they believed that a three story block with a big basement would be good. Half of the children were seriously disabled and they were all from two extended families. Only one little boy survived but his little sister died in her mothers arms.

They had leaflets asking them to leave but they had no cars and the Israeli military had bombed the roads. Down the road a bit a car was found by the red cross with a mum and her one day old baby who had been bombed two days earlier. No-one knows their names so they were buried in a mass grave.

Back to Qana - the bombing was at 1 am and the children were all asleep in the bunker while the bombs rained down on them. They all suffocated under tonnes of rubble but no-one in the village knew until dawn when they found the horrible sight.

You people really should watch the BBC video by Fergal Keane who was one of the first on the scene. Lifeless children dragged from the rubble by red cross, journalists having to help because the Israeli's had turned the town into rubble.

Then fast forward to Bint Jbail - a town for 30,000 people bombed to rubble with goodness knows how many dead. Don't the US get the proper news services or do you all watch the Murdoch tripe.

828 mainly civilians now dead, 3200 injured and all this in 21 days - this is as high as in Iraq after 40 months of violence.

There is no need for this vile Jew bashing for heavens sake - or the muslims or anyone else. They are all people not blood sucking monsters.

As for the rocket being fired from that house - it was conceded by the Israeli military that it was 300 metres away yet the smart bomb weighed 450 Kg and was supposed to be accurate to a few metres.

Therefore that massacre of civilians was deliberate as they often are in the Gaza.

Posted by: Marilyn | August 1, 2006 01:18 PM

More:

ttp://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/wo...=1&oref=slogin

""Hezbollah came to Ain Ebel to shoot its rockets," said Fayad Hanna Amar, a young Christian man, referring to his village. "They are shooting from between our houses."

"Please,'' he added, "write that in your newspaper.""

Posted by: Miriam | August 1, 2006 01:21 PM

proper link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/world/middleeast/28refugees.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Posted by: Miriam | August 1, 2006 01:25 PM

"American I just want to know if you enjoy taking it up the hershey highway from your fellow psychos?" -Petunia

Thats what you have to say?
Glad you have nothing of substance to say, but rather share your homoerotic fantasies as an inteligent response.

Let's leave it to those who have a brain cell or two to judge for themselves as I personally don't care much about some worthless, herpoid zionist animal like you who post their homoerotic fantasies as a response to a debate. Worthless transvestite- 'he/she' zionist.

Posted by: american | August 1, 2006 01:27 PM

[How did you know Petunia that I was rump roaster?

Posted by: American | August 1, 2006 01:28 PM]

Now you are so stupid you're using my name to post your stupidity. What a worthless white trash brainwahed goy/ zionist. Poor thing you, you have nothing to say but homoerotic filth which fills your mind. The readers know who the "american" is based on the quality of my posts.

Posted by: american | August 1, 2006 01:37 PM

The only reasonable conclusion is that Bush is being blackmailed by the lobby.

Posted by: | August 1, 2006 01:39 PM

take a look at :

jewwatch.com

you will find a list of STD-walking zionist pornstars there. I am sure you would love to get in touch with them. They might just justify your needs.

Posted by: american | August 1, 2006 01:40 PM

Wiccan,

Although I find American's views and Rhetoric repulsive, I can answer your question. First, stop all US funding and support of Israel until they take these measures: Remove the settlements, tear down the wall on any place that it strays over the green line, end the occupation, allow a stable palestinian state to emerge and withdraw from lebanon completely.

This will end the conflicts and starve Hamas and Hezbollah out of existance. Not immediately, but it will happen. Until this happens, you can be assured of Israel's ongoing terrorist onslaught.

The view that the conflict is driven by the settlemment movement is shared by Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, Colin Powell, and a very large number of other analysts and ex politicians . Working US politicians are completely cowed by AIPAC and prevented by their cowardice from ever speaking about the subject.

Although, one excellent exception to this rule is Jonathan Tasini, who is running against Hillary Clinton in the NY senate
Race. If I seem less than credible to you, perhaps Mr. Tasini's background and views will seem more convincing to you:


"When I announced that I was entering the race for the U.S. Senate, I began with a quote from Martin Luther King, Jr.: "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." I am not a professional politician whose sole goal is to accumulate power so I have the freedom to speak my mind and I will not be silent.


I've touched the "third rail" of politics in New York: the Israel-Palestine conflict, the dreadful occupation and the never-ending violence that is spinning out of control, in large part because the United States--and politicians like Hillary Clinton--continue to blindly pursue a one-sided policy in the Palestinian-Israel conflict, a policy that is causing more death and sorrow for civilians on all sides of the conflict.

From the beginning of this race, I was committed to speaking the truth, whether about the Iraq war/occupation or abusive corporate power or the corruption coursing through our political system. People are simply fed up with the pandering, the triangulation and the inability to speak the truth that is endangering our country's future, our relations in the world and our well-being at home. We need a real opposition party, a Democratic Party with a vision that has the spine to stand for something authentic and honest.

It's worth voters in New York knowing a little about where I come from on the issue of Israel-Palestine and the raging conflict engulfing the region today. I speak about Israel out of love and pain, in the same way that I am a deeply patriotic American who is harshly critical of our government and its behavior in Iraq--and of Hillary Clinton's vote to send our men and women to die into an illegal, immoral war.

My father was born in then-Palestine. He fought in the Haganah (the Israeli underground) in the war of independence; my father's cousin, whose name I carry as a middle name, was killed in that war. I lived in Israel for seven years, during which I went through the 1973 war: a cousin of mine was killed in that war, leaving a young widow and two children, and his brother was wounded. My step-grandfather, an old man who was no threat to anyone, was killed by a Palestinian who took an axe to his head while he was sitting quietly on a park bench. Half my family still lives in Israel. I have seen enough bloodshed, tears, and parents burying their children to last many lifetimes.

For that reason, I believe passionately in a two-state solution, which includes a strong, independent, economically viable Palestinian state existing along side a strong, independent, economically vibrant Israel. It is the only solution that will bring peace to the civilians who now live in fear of death raining down from above--either because of the missiles of Hezbollah or the bombs of Israeli aircraft.

So, here is what I said--and did not say--that has touched off this discussion and the press coverage (I certainly hope there is such interest when I release my economic program). I did not say that Israel is a terrorist state. I did say--and have said for a long time--that Israel has committed acts that violate international standards and the Geneva conventions. In Israel, my statement that the military has committed acts that violate the Geneva convention and international standards and has also engaged in torture (or, as it is called, "moderate pressure") would be a subject of debate but hardly considered novel or particularly radical. Among the many sources for the truth, beyond my personal experience, is the Israeli human rights organization, B'Tselem. If you visit the organization's website, you will find condemnation of both Israeli and Palestinian violence against civilians of each side.

Here is what B'Tselem says about the current escalation:

"...the organization reiterates that international humanitarian law (IHL) obligates all parties taking part in hostilities to refrain from launching attacks against civilians or against civilian objects.
IHL requires that the combating sides direct their attacks only against specific military objectives, take cautionary measures to prevent injury to civilians, and refrain from disproportionate attacks, i.e. attacks directed against legitimate targets, but that are likely to cause excessive harm to civilian. Furthermore, IHL clearly forbids the intimidation and terrorising of civilians, as well as collective punishment.

Over the past week, Israel has killed hundreds of Lebanese civilians in its attacks against targets in Lebanon. There is a concern that at least some of them were disproportionate attacks, which constitute war crimes. In addition, Israel has launched deliberate attacks against civilian infrastructure throughout Lebanon, such as bridges, the Beirut international airport , the electricity supply and fuel reservoirs. There is a concern that such attacks are intended to put pressure on the Lebanese Government and not to obtain a specific military advantage. If this is the case, these attacks constitute collective punishment and a grave violation of IHL. Moreover, even if these targets constitute legitimate military objects, or civilian objectives that may be used for military purposes, Israel must respect the principle of proportionality and refrain from attacks that would cause excessive harm to civilians."


The problem is not the debate in Israel. The problem is the debate--or lack thereof--in the United States.

Senator Clinton's spokesperson has called my comments "beyond the pale." With all due respect, it is Senator Clinton's behavior, lack of leadership and failure to call for a respect for international law that should be questioned by the press, the Jewish community and the voters of New York. At a time when the violence against people on both sides of the border has killed hundreds of innocent people (mostly Lebanese), Hillary Clinton has fanned the flames of the conflict by recognizing and condemning the violence only against Israelis and effectively encouraging military action. I, too, have stated clearly, from the outset, that Hezbollah's actions violate international law. But, to ignore Israel's actions is abhorrent, weak and cowardly.

I don't believe Senator Clinton is a true friend of Israel. A friend of Israel, not someone who simply seeks votes, would understand that employing collective punishment against people in Lebanon only embitters a population, possibly for generations, and that even a short-term military victory will be empty if it leaves behind a shattered country. As an article in The New York Times illustrated: "We're not Hezbollah supporters, but we cannot excuse what the Israelis are doing," said Rima Beydoun, a secular Shiite who owns an advertising agency. "We knew there would be repercussions, but no one expected they would be like this," Mr. Salhab, the filmmaker, said of Shiite support for Hezbollah. "I am very critical of that part of my country, but I have to put it aside, because we are being destroyed. At this point, I can't just say: Hezbollah, go to hell."

A friend of Israel, not someone who simply seeks votes, would never have stood before the "security wall" in the West Bank, as Senator Clinton did, and praised it--even though it has been found to be illegal under international law and by the Israeli Supreme Court (which said that, if a wall needed to be built, it should not stray outside the "green line" into the occupied territories). A friend of Israel would argue strenuously that Israel's moral fiber and its security is weakened every moment that that wall stands in its place, in violation of the law of Israel, severing families from their land, separating people and filling more people with rage and despair.

A friend of Israel, not someone who simply seeks votes, would deplore the collective punishment employed by the Israeli army in Gaza. As Rabbi Michael Lerner has suggested, in the wake of the democratic elections that brought Hamas to power in Gaza, "Instead of narrowly focusing on Hamas' capacity to make war, the Israelis chose the path of collective punishment, a frequently ineffective counterinsurgency policy used to eliminate public support for resistance movements. In the height of the oppressive summer heat, Israel bombed the electricity grid, effectively cutting off Gaza's water and the electricity needed to keep refrigeration working, thereby guaranteeing a dramatic decrease in food for the area's already destitute, million plus population. This act was yet another violation of international law that include[d] the arrests of thousands by Israelis and the shooting of Qassams at population centers by Hamas."

I have challenged Senator Clinton to come out into the public arena, stop hiding behind her spokespeople and spinners and image consultants. Let's debate the future of Israel and Palestine, publicly, on television, in front of the voters. Right now, in the coming days because the violence in the Middle East is rising. Pick the time and place.

I would end with this thought: As a Jew, I have always been proud of the Jewish concept of "Tikkun Olam" or "repairing the world." I like to think that that is what brought so many Jews into the civil rights and labor movements in the 1960s and 1970s, and into the current anti-war movement--and, personally, guided me into the world of social justice work. I feel great sorrow that Israel is an occupier of another people and I believe that Israel can never be whole and can never be at peace until that occupation is ended in a just way. And I also believe that the concept of Tikkun Olam means that we must never be silent."

I hope this helps answer your question.

P.S. American is a loon. you would do better to argue with the wind about blowing so much.

J

P.S.S.

Stop the bombing, end the occupation, raze the settlements, tear down the wall and watch peace break out in the ME.


Posted by: J | August 1, 2006 01:49 PM

Sorry American but Wiccan is correct. The land that I live on belonged to the Hurons and the land that you live on belonged to the Mohicans, the Sioux, etc. depending on where you live.

The Americans and Canadians have as much right to live in North America as the Israelis have to live in Israel.

Actually, the Jews and Arabs share the same genetic material as Semites so they both have the "right" to be in the Middle East where they both originated.

Hey! I have a great idea! The UN should create a country, call it Palestine and disarm the terrorists. Then there will be peace and less of the childish namecalling that you seem to enjoy so much!

Posted by: Canadian | August 1, 2006 01:53 PM

The only reasonable conclusion is that Bush is being blackmailed by the lobby."

No kidding! But there is more to it!

Take alook at this excellent article and see how the judeocons/ neocons hijacked the white house and the M.E. Policey.

"The weird men behind George Bush's War"- By Michael Lind

"The Israel lobby itself is divided into Jewish and Christian wings. Wolfowitz and Feith have close ties to the Jewish-American Israel lobby. Wolfowitz, who has relatives in Israel, has served as the Bush administration's liaison to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. Feith was given an award by the Zionist Organisation of America, citing him as a "pro-Israel activist". While out of power in the Clinton years, Feith collaborating with Perle, co-authored for Likud a policy paper that advised the Israeli government to end the Oslo peace process, reoccupy the territories and crush Yasser Arafat's government."
"How did the neo-con defence intellectuals -a small group at odds with most of the US foreign policy elite, Republican as well as Democratic - manage to capture the Bush administration? ....

The neo-cons took advantage of Bush's ignorance and inexperience. Unlike his father, a Second World War veteran who had been ambassador to China, director of the CIA and vice-president, George W was a thinly educated playboy who had failed repeatedly in business before becoming the governor of Texas, a largely ceremonial position (the state's lieutenant governor has more power). His father is essentially a north-eastern, moderate Republican; George W, raised in west Texas, absorbed the Texan cultural combination of machismo, anti- intellectualism and overt religiosity. The son of upper-class Episcopalian parents, he converted to southern fundamentalism in a midlife crisis. Fervent Christian Zionism, along with an admiration for macho Israeli soldiers that sometimes coexists with hostility to liberal Jewish-American intellectuals, is a feature of the southern culture....."

See full article at:

http://www.rense.com/general37/theweirdmenbehind.htm


Posted by: american | August 1, 2006 01:54 PM

Israel is a lost cause. Certainly they will continue fighting in Lebanon and most likely win quite a few battles (I mean killing lots of people). But the Arab World has lost all patience and by hook or crook over the next 10 or 20 years will get rid of Israel. They simply have reached the point of no return. I can't blame them. Jews, as part of an integrated society, certainly belong in the Middle East but not a Zionist Colonial society such as Israel.

Posted by: Anagadir | August 1, 2006 01:54 PM

yes, canadian- but that was never the point. They can live there if they want but not at the expense of the freedom and well being of the people who rightfully own the land. Just as simple as that.

As far as their genetic material...I really dont care about that. But I am no0t impressed by it- to put it very mildly.

Posted by: american | August 1, 2006 01:57 PM

Ahh yes the excuse that bombing civilian buildings is justified because of the proximity of rocket fire. I had posted earlier about the "fire and run" methodology of Hizbullah that the Israeli's are fully aware of.

From what I understand of Katyusha rockets, they are highly mobile, easily transported in pickup trucks or even by foot. I also understand that the policy of Hezbollah fighters is to assemble, fire, and then immediately disassemble and scatter. The Israeli's know this. Bombing an alleged "launch site", as the Israelis are trying to paint the massacre in Qana, is just smoke and mirrors. When Israel knows that Hezbollah fighters are gone minutes after rockets are launched, bombing those locations (especially so close to civilian structures) is mindless and suspect.

Check this link out. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM-21)
"The BM-21 can be packed up and ready to move in two minutes, which can be necessary when engaged by counter battery fire. Reloading is done manually and takes about ten minutes."

The katyusha name is applied to a variety of systems; the version used by Hezbollah is the BM-21 (or a variant). The time mentioned is for the multiple barreled systems atop a dedicated vehicle. What I was able to glean from various websites is that Hezbollah does not use multi barrel launchers atop dedicated vehicles. It tends to use its rockets in smaller groups that are easier and faster to assemble and disassemble. That reduces the time to disassemble and scatter to a few seconds (A couple of minute's tops. By all accounts Hezbollah is very well trained in using its weapons systems.).
Any Israeli strike at such locations (typically hours after the rockets are fired), when they know that Hizbullah fighters are gone, is nothing but deliberate collective punishment imposed on civilians who have nothing to do with Hizbullah.

Posted by: Zain | August 1, 2006 01:59 PM

Marilyn--thanks for a thoughtful post.
The fact is, though, that the Israelis are and have bombed ambulances with big red croses, caravans with white flages and cars that are trying to escape before and after the leaflets. All over the news, particularly mid week to midweek last week. It's target practice? Or fun? Also NOT new because it's happened in Palestine as well, for years. Are you surprised? No one else is. Their norm.

Posted by: Disgusted American | August 1, 2006 02:00 PM

THERE WERE NO ROCKET LAUNCHES from Qana. Of course US Media won't focus on it.

As the Israel Air Force continues to investigate the air strike, questions have been raised over military accounts of the incident.

It now appears that the military had no information on rockets launched from the site of the building, or the presence of Hezbollah men at the time.

The Israel Defense Forces had said after the deadly air-strike that many rockets had been launched from Qana. However, it changed its version on Monday.

The site was included in an IAF plan to strike at several buildings in proximity to a previous launching site. Similar strikes were carried out in the past. However, there were no rocket launches from Qana on the day of the strike.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.html

Posted by: MUST READ | August 1, 2006 02:04 PM

AMERICAN (OF 1:54 P.M VINTAGE TODAY.)
EXCELLENT! Very valuable to have someone informed, an insider obviously. You miss one thing. Wolfowitz and Perle wrote the war...to have been Iraq/Syria/Iran using American blood and treasure. But after the mess in Iraq the whole scenario changed....to Israel/Lebanon/Syria, etc.
And they had to hurry because our AIRPAC controlled Congress and the deluded Bush are about to be turned out. And no new President will dare, oor will go the way of Lieberman. Perle once bragged how he and Wolfowitz were "recruited" by Albert Wohlstetter, out of the Chicago group that planned Israel's long plan...the takeover, beginning in the ME. Recruited for what, you don't need to ask. If in doubt read the manafisto
for Committee for the New American Century.

Posted by: American since the beginning | August 1, 2006 02:09 PM

James: "The facts speak for themselves. In the Lebanon war, as in the West Bank and Gaza, there are real Israeli casualities, most of them civilian and many of them children."

Actually, according to today's Jerusalem Post, of a total 52 Israeli dead in this war, 33 were soldiers and 18 were civilians.

Posted by: OD | August 1, 2006 02:17 PM

American,

You have an exceedingly hard head :o)

Posted by: Canadian | August 1, 2006 02:36 PM

Oops that should read a total of 51 Israeli dead.

Posted by: OD | August 1, 2006 02:39 PM

Zain & J-

Thank you. Your solutions are very close to what I had in mind as being the most practical way to deal with this. The unfortunate thing is that we will have to wait until Bush and his neo-cons are out of power before America can take this action. Do you think there are enough reasonable people on both sides (Arab states and Israel) to abide by such a treaty? (Without a permanent UN force to make sure they play nice?) Who are they and how can I give them my support?

Posted by: wiccan | August 1, 2006 02:49 PM

Frankly, after reading posts by Pro-Israeli and Anti-Zionists alike, I think you're all completely off your meds. If you could all just take ONE STEP BACK and read the whole thing, both sides, from an objective view-point you'd realize how truly nuts y'all are. Quit staking out extreme sides and try to find the middle ground--- It's in the middle where lives the heart.

Course, I might just be a Islamo-Zionist liar trying to feed you more lies and propaganda.

Posted by: Chad | August 1, 2006 03:05 PM

I'd like to lock AMERICAN and MURRAY in a steel cage and let them fight it out. Either way, one less whack job in the world (and, if lucky, maybe TWO).

Posted by: Chad | August 1, 2006 03:09 PM

If I hear the PROPAGANDA term "Hezbollah strongholds" one more time, I'm gonna barf.

PfP
"tellling it like it is"

Posted by: Patriot-for-Peace | August 1, 2006 03:13 PM

Using precision guided munitions, no matter how precise, in urban settings will inevitably lead to the scenes in Qana, and, the killing of U.N. observers.
If the U.N. observers really called the Israelis ten times, and in at last one, gave precise coordinates, then why are no mention made that a Katyusha rocket truck is sitting six feet from the wall surrounding the U.N. compound.
Use of Precision Guided munitions, I imagine, can't guarantee a Circular Error Probable (zone of accuracy) of six feet or less. The coordinates of a position, assuming similar maps ... not too mention U.N. positions having already been plotted long before the first sound of gunfire was loosed in this maniacal outburst of blood letting ... should have made it crystal clear where the U.N. observers were.
Thus, if we assume a "mistake" was made, as Israel claims, then they just kept on firing, adjusting their artillery fire ... but nonetheless fully aware that their rounds couldn't be that accurate to avoid the possibility of killing U.N. observers.
A mistake implies something went wrong.
In this case, Israel knew full well there was a high probability of their rounds directly landing on the U.N. outpost. It wasn't a mistake: it was a calculated risk, using U.N. observers as the ones who could pay with their lives.
In that regard, Kofi Annan should stand his ground: Israel chose to ignore all the warnings, and relied instead on hubris and luck to knock out a Hizbullah rocket site.
In Qana, here's a thought:
the shrapnel and loose glass, metal, nails, other sharp objects on the roads OUT OF Qana would most likely have flattened the tires of any and all vehicles driving out of town. There were also very good reasons for people to NOT get on the road: the U.N. fiasco; the ambulance convoy that was blown apart; all kinds of other stories from Lebanese who tried to leave, but were blown to bits.
And, we're tallking about a group of people who might also have been too poor (like in New Orleans!!) to drive out.
Blame the victims.
Israel could have choppered a company of their elite forces in to take these two sites out ... or driven in there with a column of armored vehicles ... they chose to use air and artillery power instead.
Let's not believe the Israelis at ALL about mistakes.
Nope.
Just calculated risks and a feeling that ... hey, we've given their sorry butts warnings .. if they're not out by now ... screw 'em. Fire another salvo!
Drop another laser guided bomb.
I have no sympathy whatsoever for the Israelis.
They're bullies and I resent the living crap out of the Bush Administration's sycophant role it plays with the Israeli Lobby.
The Israeli Lobby certainly isn't a monolithic organization which contains only Jewish members.
There are surely non-Jewish members in the Israeli Lobby.
But ... the people who gravitate to enshrining our connections to Israel will help dig us a long, mass grave for our kids and grandkids.
If we do NOT sever our ties with Israel soon ... and Israel attacks Syria or Iran ... any of you tough talkers out there who have kids over in Iraq can kiss their butts goodbye. They'll most likely never come home ... or, if they do ... it will be because we've been run out of Iraq like the allies were run out of Europe, and backed up into the Dunkirk beachhead. We'll leave with our backs to the sea and our fronts firing as we go.
The Shi'a world has it's locus there in the Lebanon-Syria-Iraq-Iran-eastern Saudi Arabia-Yemen-Western Afghanistan region.
A widened war with Syria and Iran will -- WILL -- mean a reinstatement of the Draft.
And, if Bush isn't made to reject any committment he's made to support Israel if they attack Syria or Iran, or more stupidly, both, then we'll be in a Crusade of a century of war against Islam and Arab nations.
Israel doesn't warrant us going down the rat hole. We've paid our dues on whatever deficiencies we Americans had during WW II and didn't do enough for the Holocaust victims. We've done paid up.
So have the Germans and Italians and whoever else was sanctioned for their treatment of Jews during WW II.
We were the first to support Israel and have supported it all along.
I say, now, times have changed.
Six million Israelis do not warrant the entire western world going to war aginst Islam.
Sorry, but if they attack Syria or Iran, or both, and CNN has already trotted out a former general who has wet the appetites of the brave, courageous and bold ... armchair generals ... then God help them.
I truly hope, if they do that, that we WON'T help them.
They should live or die based on their own actions and we shouldn't go down with them.
Not at all.

Posted by: Ramparts | August 1, 2006 03:33 PM

I just cannot believe what I am reading in the comments of the Washington Post: "Bloodthirsty Jews? Drinking the blood of Christians?" Quote from Nasrallah in interviews in 2006: " We have no quarrel with America" while his yearly motto for Hezbollah stated on Al-Manar TV 11/05 as " Death to America" (same as previous years) His goals for Shi'a children: (I quote) "Martyrdom.. Three kinds ... The greatest martyrdrom is dying while killing..." So this is the real culture of death and lies that we should side with for our children's future? When Hezbollah killed 2 little boys in Nazareth with their random rockets "for Jews only" ( random shooting at civilians is a war crime for Hezbollah as well as for Israel) then apparently these children deaths were OK. No outrage there. They are shahids. Hezbollah has the right to kill Israeli civiians randomly. If it is Hezbollah, it is not a war crime, it is a quest for sainthood! The mother was not even allowed to complain. Killing their own people to kill Jews is part of "life"?? Embrace the culture of death, where only death is the goal. Kill Jews by killing your own children. Nothing else matters. Keep them under rocket fires in Cana or Nazareth, and then blame Jews for their deaths while desecrating their bodies with instant "16x"18 pics (not Haram by the way) for coordinated rampage on UN offices in Gaza and Beyrut. But since the Qana massacre, there has been NO rockets shot at Haifa - fact deniers be warned, they are still raining on the North, but the Haifa shootings are gone - maybe Israel actually got these rocket launchers in Cana after all? Maybe Israel was not shooting randomly, unlike Hezbollah war crimes? And saving the lives of their own instead of shahiding their deaths. Or maybe Hezbollah cannot shoot anymore because they have the media photo-opping the correct dead (unlike the dead in Nazareth) that Hezbollah did not protect. Gaza celebrates each time a random rocket lands on civilians in Israel. Israeli did not celebrate the deaths, but apologized for the deaths. Did Hezbollah EVER apologize for any Israeli civilians deaths???? No, because there is a double standard here. Hezbollah's goals: kill Jews. Shoot rockets at civilians Israel's goal: bomb rocket launchers. Hezbollah's struggle in the German translation of "jihad" (=struggle), is also the title of "Mein Kampft". Welcome to a world where a party such as Hezbollah does not have to apologize for Jewish deaths or launching rockets on them. A party where Condi Rice -whether you agree with her not - gets racists epithets in official business in Gaza that makes the KKK look tame. What do we stand for? Death or Life? Justice for all? A society who hurls racist epithets at African-American in officials demonstrations and uses a double standard for war crimes? This is Berlin 1936 all over again.

Posted by: Nicole | August 1, 2006 03:43 PM

Hi Nicole

The Jews should have thought about it when they were steeling the land in the West Bank and Gaza or bombing/ bulldozing the Palestinian infrastructure such as power plants, dwellings and olive groves.

Seems like they bringing it onto themselves. Sorry.

Posted by: Ben | August 1, 2006 03:54 PM

No one has been treated worse than the Black man in America and we didn't strap bombs to our children in order to break the grip of our oppressor. Nor did Ghandi in India nor did Mandela in South Africa. And what do all these groups have in common, they overcame.

If these Arab groups in the M E are being as oppressed as they claim at the hands of Israel it will come to light and the world body will be shamed into action on their behalf. But you lessen your argument everytime you strap a bomb to one of your children.

Posted by: Black Man | August 1, 2006 04:09 PM

Nicole,

Yes, there appear to be many racists here, spouting slurs against arabs and Jews alike. It's almost as though they want to intentionally pull the subject off course to such an ugly place that no one would really even want to go there.

So if I may suggest,

Please attempt to simply skip over those ridiculus posts (often times these is just a little drool, spittle, or foam dotting the beginning of these diatribes, so they are easy to spot) and read the many rational arguements for or against Israel's behavior, and (if you want to ) please confine your comments to those, or if you are so inclined, go ahead and continue to rail aimlessley at people whose entire world view is based upon an obvious, almost laughable logical fallacy.

In the mean time,

Stop the bombing, end the occupation, raze the settlements, tear down the wall and watch peace break out in the ME.


J


Posted by: J | August 1, 2006 04:14 PM

Black man, I agree with your criticism of suicide bombings. Then again, I am not sure I would care about being "civilized" and "rational" with my response if my child was bulldozed over, my family shot at and having to live in a ghetto under constant threat of being bombed.

However there is a need for balance in your statement. While condemning the tactics used by Hamas and Hizbullah, there is also a need to make Israel withdraw to the pre 1967 borders and give the Palestinians a state within which they can work towards developing and prospering. Only then will there be a defeat for Hamas's ideology.

The genie of violent resistance is out of the bottle. We are caught up in a vicious cycle where each side blames the other for starting it. Israel being the dominant (by far) military power and occupier needs to hold back its hand while allowing the Palestinians their state and therefore giving reason to the Palestinians to denounce groups like Hamas.

Posted by: Zain | August 1, 2006 04:28 PM

Chad seems to have forgotten that in 1983 Hezbollah used a truck bomb to murder 241 US servicemen who were part of a multinational peacekeeping force.

Posted by: Canadian | August 1, 2006 05:00 PM

Ramparts brings up a good point. As with New Orleans, many Lebanese are either too poor to leave the conflict zone or have no where to go if they did. The middle class has no comprehension of what it means to be poor. Their perspective is biased by their personal experience; why should anyone not take the chance to leave when all they have to do is to charge the expense to their Visa card? Also, what is the deal with the Israelis urging the civilians to leave and then bombing any vehicle moving on the road, or did Hezbollah's jets bomb the Red Cross vehicles?

Posted by: Chuck B. | August 1, 2006 05:09 PM

Posted by: american | August 1, 2006 10:41

American;
Thank you for the informative link - I took the time to read the entire document and use several of the links to verify the information stated.
I have spent a great deal of time the last few days researching the origins of the Palestinian/Lebonese/Arabic Countries vs, Israel wars that have been going on my entire life -I beleive that GWBush and the Cheney/Rumsfeild et. al cabal has been step by step taking us toward WWII- this lastest "inncident" was at least in part planned to be initated and executed in July (right on schedule!) as a run-up to our eventual war with Iran (This was disclosed very thoroughly in a piece Mr. Arkin did in he's "Early Warning" column several months ago) --


the real question is "Why would they want war with Iran?!!- I think the
Iranian Oil Bourse in April (which is when the talks of Iran being a threat and our need to stop them began)-If in their greedy and corrupt minds (w/o regard to humannity at large)they (US/Israel) win- then the Iraninan OIl Bourse and the subsequent consierable devaluing of the American dollar-is stopped and eventually Israel can colonize the surrounding territores unabated and the US can eventully have and control the OIl countries of the Middle East i.e Iraq, Iran and Syria and have their golden oil pipeline from the Iraq oil fields through Syria and straight to the Mediterranian (sp?) sea.
Israel would get what it wants which is the Zionist Greater Israel and America would get what it wants which is to control and domminate the world economy through it''s control of the bulk of oil in the world and insure its perpetuation as the "Greatest (and Unstoppable) Power on Earth"
Remember even China, Russia and India are dependant on oil- and as they develop their economies they will be even more so as we are today.

I retrived this link from the London Guardian which explains some of the reality of the Israel/Us collaboration in their "mutual war"

All of my life (and I am not young by any means and well into middle age) I have belived what was reported to the American Citizenship re: the perpetual "Middle East Crisis" and belived the Arabic and Palestinian people were hate crazed zeolots- never knowing why- I hope that many of the reader of this site will take the time to do some research and read some of the information that is out there and available now that we have a global internet -that has been withheld from us by the American Media.


This may answer some of the questions have as to why the Arabic world has such a burning hatred for us,And the And -We in America pride ourselves on our Courage and our resolute ability to fight for what is Justice and Truth- I ask you after viewing this -being an American with American ideologies (I presume) how would you react or deal with this reality?

http://video.google.com/ googlepl...123714384920696

Posted by: yogigirl | August 1, 2006 05:11 PM

Canadian | August 1, 2006 05:00 PM
Canadian you might want to know that the bombs that were used in the attack on our soldiers -killing 242(?) was sold and deliverd to the Hezbollah 3 days before by George HW Bush. Sr when he was head of the CIA to negociate the return of the Iranian Hostages during the Carter/Regean change of regieme here in the US after Carters presidential defeat and Regan's Ingnaguration- even though their release was brokered 3mos before the annoucement was witheld until 20 min after the swearing in ceremony of Regan Jan 20- the hostage sat in capivity 3 extra months to make Carter look like a failure throughout the election and then to make Regan look like a hero at his Ignaguration (sp). no matter about the 242 boys who lost their lives from the bombs and weapons Bush, Sr. sold them- Their all "collateral damage" in their war for control of the world!

p.s. sorry for my poor spelling- i'm not so good at it anymore

Posted by: yogigirl | August 1, 2006 05:28 PM

Black Man-

I applaud your comment. There are peaceful and diplomatic ways to get your message heard and work out your differences.

Zain wrote:
"Then again, I am not sure I would care about being "civilized" and "rational" with my response if my child was bulldozed over, my family shot at and having to live in a ghetto under constant threat of being bombed."

This way of thinking is a problem. There is still no justification for suicide bombing innocent people. There are two sides to everything.


If these Arab groups in the M E are being as oppressed as they claim at the hands of Israel it will come to light and the world body will be shamed into action on their behalf. But you lessen your argument everytime you strap a bomb to one of your children.

Posted by: SM | August 1, 2006 05:38 PM

Sorry - that last paragraph was written by Black Man, and I meant to remove it before I submitted my post.

Posted by: SM | August 1, 2006 05:39 PM

Disgusted American -

Just so you know, Hezbollah (as well as other radical groups) have been known to transport themselves and their weapons in vehicles marked with RED CROSS symbols. Don't be so naive to think that it doesn't happen. This is a group that routinely hides among civilians in apartment buildings, hospitals and mosques. They have no concern for their citizens.

Posted by: SM | August 1, 2006 05:42 PM

,SM. Yes, the Israelis have been known, in fact ARE SPECIFICALLY KNOWN FOR , shooting Palestinian children armed with rocks, completely innocent refugees (Jenin)with bulldozers, ambulances on the way to, near hospitals, convoys of UN personnel trying to rescue civilians, etc etc etc., THE WHOLE WORLK KNOWS. Just why, I wonder do you think everyone hates them?

Posted by: wondering | August 1, 2006 06:48 PM

SM:

"This way of thinking is a problem. There is still no justification for suicide bombing innocent people. There are two sides to everything."

You can tell me that after you experience what I described. If you bothered to read my entire post you would see that I agreed with Black Man on his criticism of suicide bombings. My point was that people under duress do not necessarily act rationally. Can I guarantee that if I saw my child shot in front of me I would just sit back and go petition the Palestinian Authority for reparations from Israel? More than likely not. There is no system in place to hold Israeli soldiers accountable for the war crimes they commit. They get a slap on the wrist such as a four month sentence for shooting a seven year old girl several times. If that was my child, I would be very, very close to blowing anything, or anyone, Israeli up.
Would I do it?
I do not know, and I hope I never have to find out.

My only reason for stating this was to illustrate that labeling the Palestinians terrorists, without trying to understand what leads to such desperate behavior, is counterproductive. You are trying to treat the symptoms without worrying about the disease. The disease is the occupation and the brutal Israeli tactic of collective punishment. Get rid of the disease and the symptoms will fade away. Tear down the wall and the settlements, and return to the pre 1967 borders. Let the Palestinians have their sovereign state where they can live freely and prosper, and the violence will eventually die out.

Like you said SM, there are two sides to everything.

Posted by: Zain | August 1, 2006 08:57 PM

I keep seeing this same comment over and over again defining all Palestinians by the actions of a few suicide bombers - do all of you define all Jewish people by the actions of baruch goldstein, irv rubin, meir kahane etc etc....

If not why not...

Posted by: Angus | August 1, 2006 09:43 PM

In an article posted on the BBC News site, the following appears:

**************************************
"Hezbollah was formed primarily to offer resistance to the Israeli occupation.

It also dreamed of transforming Lebanon's multi-confessional state into an Iranian-style Islamic state, although this idea was later abandoned in favour of a more inclusive approach that has survived to this day.

The party's rhetoric calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. It regards the whole of Palestine as occupied Muslim land and it argues that Israel has no right to exist.

The party was long supported by Iran, which provided it with arms and money."

*************************************

Read the entire article at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/world/middle_east/4314423.stm

*************************************

Even if the settlements are dismantled and razed and Israel is defined by the 1967 borders as "J." advises, how is Israel supposed to deal with these groups that regard "the whole of Israel as occupied Muslim land?" These groups continuously rant that Israel has no right to exist. So, Israel will give Gaza and the West Bank, but what about Tel Aviv and Haifa and other cities that are in Israel proper? Once the Palestinians are given land for their country, will the violence end? What assurances do the Israeli citizens have that they will be able to live in peace with their neighbors?


>

Posted by: SM | August 1, 2006 09:51 PM

SM:
"Once the Palestinians are given land for their country, will the violence end?"

Unless you want to indulge in the vitriol of those who would label all Muslims/Arabs as barbarians; incapable of peace etc. etc., there should be no reason to doubt that once provided with a sovereign state of their own, the Palestinians will focus on improving their own lot. The violence probably will not end in the short run since there will always be rogue elements that will refuse to see reason and it is impossible for any state to completely keep in check ALL such elements. The majority will, more than likely, integrate themselves into society and as long as Israel co-operates with the P.A, and conducts operations against such rogue elements through them, they will continue to be marginalized.

"What assurances do the Israeli citizens have that they will be able to live in peace with their neighbors?"

The Arab league has offered full recognition to Israel if it withdraws to the 1967 borders. As far as a complete end to Palestinian violence is concerned, it will probably not happen in the immediate aftermath of an Israeli withdrawal. It is just not possible for that to happen overnight, but Palestinian independence and co-operation with Israeli security forces, rather than unilateral bombings and assassinations, will result in the desired objective.
Really, can it get any worse than this? (I suppose it can with a wider regional war)
Israel has nothing to lose with such an approach (if it is sincere about an equitable two state solution) and everything to gain by grabbing the moral and political upper hand. With the rest of the Arab states giving Israel full recognition, it will be very, very hard for groups like Hamas to continue to operate.
It is time to think outside the box and try something different.

Posted by: Zain | August 1, 2006 11:01 PM

"Sorry World," writes Ynet News columnist Guy Benyovits in Israel. The world "slams barbarian Jews," Benyovits complains, "but forgets 7-year-old Israeli killed by Hizbullah rockets."
No, Guy, we don't "forget" about that 7-year-old boy or about any of Hizbullah's innocent victims. But we in the rest of the world who have defended Israel in the past can no longer bring ourselves to do because we can see plainly that Israel, in this conflict, has committed 10 times as many crimes by killing 10 times as many innocents as Hizbullah has.
Like so many in the Israel-right-or-wrong crowd, Benyovits proves that the rest of the world has a point: mainstream Israeli opinion, it would appear, puts a far higher life on Jewish life than on any other life.
That, as we know, is a recipe for permanent war.
We in the rest of "the world" -- in the civilized world, at least -- put an equal value on all human life.
That is why we save the bulk of our condemnation for Israel, because Israel has taken by far the vast majority of innocent human life of any party in this conflict.
Pointlessly. Needlessly. Counterproductively. Pig-headedly. Criminally.
A crime is a crime. It's despicable that there are so many in Israel like Benyovits -- who cannot recognize or acknowledge a crime when it is committed by his own people.
Instead of making excuses for these crimes, why do he and his ilk not demonstrate some principle and condemn them?
The answer, I can only conclude, is that Benyovits -- like far too many Israelis -- is a crude primitive who believes his tribe can do no wrong. What else could blind him to the crimes against humanity now being committed by his own national government against innocent civilians?

Posted by: David R. | August 1, 2006 11:04 PM

Sm-

Give Peace a Chance!

Is world war III a better course for the world community? Israel needs to dismantle the settements, end its occupation of the rightful lands of the Palestians, its oppression and humiliation of an entire society and, stop trying to encroach upon the lands of its neighbors and try to build bridges in its regional community instead of driving people from their homes and lands through terrorist activites-i.e constant attacks and military assaults on their cities and people-bulldozing homes with families asleep in them and general terrorism of an entire people-

You would really think that a society of people who had suffered one of the worst examples of ethnic cleansing while the world stood by, would have a much greater compassion for others, and be more inclined to NEVER do that to another, and understand the immense pain and suffering that sort of persecution brings to people, familes, and society at large-but they themselves have become the very thing they say they despise and "will never forget".
Where is their memories of the Holocaust when they are sending in armies with tanks and bombs the neighborhoods where the "ooposition" is children in the streets with sticks and stones- anyone who is willing to die for American must have some sort of understanding of the extreme despiration of people who only ability to fight back is to strap a bomb to themselves and blow up a resturant or night club here and there.

Posted by: yogigirl | August 1, 2006 11:18 PM

Senator Chuck Schumer (Democrat, NY), normally one of the administration's most vociferous critics, said yesterday 'he has no criticism for the president on this issue.'

This is so typical of the pathetic excuses we have for politicians in this country - where are the statesmen!!

Schumer's message I criticise the President on everything except Israel - so does that mean that his liberal stand on everything else is a big lie - or that he is willing to compromise his personal (im)moral code to defend israels right to wreak havoc on its neighbours...what a loser...if I was a rich Arab I would not spend a dime in NY ....remember people like hilary & chuck make a living out of hating you!!

Posted by: Angus | August 1, 2006 11:33 PM

"La Raza II then kidnaps your neighbor and hauls her back to Mexico to be repeatedly raped."

Sounds like this dude is havinh some freaky deaky fantasies....i bet he's on a Sexual Predator list somewhere...

Posted by: Athiestisasicko | August 2, 2006 12:09 AM

Remember, people, there are TWO sides to every conflict!

Posted by: | August 2, 2006 12:14 AM

Click on the following link and scroll down to about the middle of the page to read about the history of Muslims living in Lebanon and launching attacks against the Israelis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon

Click on the following link and read the whole story about what caused the latest conflict.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

Wikipedia is fair and unbiased. It states that (1) the Hezbollah Islamic thugs initiated a military attack against the Israelis and kidnapped 2 soldiers, (2) the Israelis justifiably responded by launching a massive military strike against Lebanon itself, and (3) the controversy is whether the Israeli response is disproportionate.

Now, let's assign a moral value to this situation by first framing it in your local context. Suppose that a Mexican vigilante group called La Raza II hid in Mexico with the full support of the Mexicans. The Mexican government refuses to disarm La Raza II. La Raza II continuously, over the course of years, launches attacks against American neighborhoods. La Raza II fires a missile at San Diego and blows up a house in your neighbor. La Raza II then kidnaps your neighbor and hauls her back to Mexico to be repeatedly raped.

What would you do? How would you feel?

I know what I would do. I, as an American, would demand that Washington immediately invade Mexico and to bomb any facility used by La Raza II. "Facility" includes supermarkets. Just like the Israelis, Washington would aim only at the vigilante thugs, but since the thugs are using civilians as human shields, inevitably, many civilians die. The blame for the civilian deaths falls squarely on the shoulders of the vigilante thugs.

Posted by: atheist | August 2, 2006 12:17 AM

I cannot overemphasize recommending that you kind folks visit the web site at the following link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

The information at that web site is fair and unbiased. Only such information can protect from the frequent articles (on this blog site) of propaganda written by numerous Muslims and the rare Israeli extremist.

Many of you have probably never met a Muslim in your life. Read all the articles (on this blog site) written by Muslims. These articles are not written by some freak. Rather, these articles represent how the typical Muslim thinks and acts. Take copies of these articles, compare them against the information at Wikipedia, and teach you children that Muslims are very different from non-Muslims.

The morality of the typical Muslim is very different from the morality of the typical non-Muslim. Know the difference. Teach your children the difference.

Posted by: atheist | August 2, 2006 12:17 AM

Yes, that's right -- on the vigilante thugs running the Israeli Defense Forces and their vigilante thug political masters, up to and including Olmert.
These people have sanctioned crimes against humanity.

Posted by: Tony | August 2, 2006 12:19 AM

Let's take Sidney and John as a point of fact. There are people like this on both sides of this conflict which has been going on since the dark ages. The head of the catholic church's mission program stated that the first thing Isreal does in a conflict is bomb a school for disabled Palestinian children right accross the border. According to him they do this repeatedly which he believes is no mistake. The target for the suicide bombers is also usually women and children. These people are self described as crazy from centuries of war and have lost their faculties of reason. What I have a problem with is our govenment picking sides instead of working to end the war and violence. The Patriot Acts (which I have opposed) have been used to make it an act of treason for missionaries to work with and educate Palestinian children about subjects like democracy. America is a melting pot and our government should be fair and representative of the US population, including those of both Arab and Jewish descent.

Posted by: Henry | August 2, 2006 12:30 AM

Wow! Can you feel all the hatred??

I wonder why we have wars. The anger and hatred is absolutely insidious and makes me sick.

Posted by: CRASH | August 2, 2006 01:05 AM

Atheist,

People should teach their children that you, Atheist, are different than other people. What is it that differentiates you from all other people? That you have the manual dexterity to work a computer keyboard, yet lack the intelligence to lie to other people on this board in a manor that would support the supposed veracity of your lies for even a few moments.

let me give an example:

Atheist wrote,

"Wikipedia is fair and unbiased. It states that (1) the Hezbollah Islamic thugs initiated a military attack against the Israelis and kidnapped 2 soldiers, (2) the Israelis justifiably responded by launching a massive military strike against Lebanon itself, and (3) the controversy is whether the Israeli response is disproportionate."

So, here is the wikipedia page that he is refering to, which never once uses the word "Justified" , certainly never uses the word "thugs", and in fact gives a long list of Israeli precursors to the violence which diminished the hopes of the peace process and more than likely sparked the current violence:

Precursor to the violence
As of June 8, 2006, a senior Palestinian security official close to the Hamas government, Jamal Abu Samhadana, was killed in an Israeli air strike, sparking angry demonstrations in Rafah, southern Gaza Strip. For many months, the Israelis have regularly shelled open areas such as fields and orchards in an effort to prevent Palestinian militants using them to fire their missiles into nearby Israeli territory.

On June 9, 2006, eight civilians on a beach near Beit Lahiya - seven of whom belonged to the same family and three of whom were children - were killed and dozens of others wounded in an explosion on the beach of Beit Lahya in northern Gaza Strip. The Palestinians held Israel responsible for the incident, but Israel denied any involvement. The Palestinians say that an IDF warship shelled the beach causing the death of the family members. Four other people were also killed in separate Israeli air strikes in northern Gaza Strip, Palestinians said.

The military wing of the Palestinian militant group Hamas said it will no longer respect a self-imposed truce that had held since February 2005.[7]. In a statement on its website, the Izzedine al-Qassam Brigade said Israeli "massacres" had spurred the decision. Hamas said it fired rockets at Israel for the first time since its truce 16 months ago, in response to the deaths. [8]. Israel, which has been shelling open areas of northern Gaza to prevent rocket attacks, promised to investigate the deaths. "If innocent civilians have been killed by an Israeli shell, that is totally unacceptable," said government spokesman Mark Regev. "If people have to pay a price with their careers because of negligence or some other factor, that will be done ..."

Jordan spoke of the killings as a crime which would further increase tensions, while Turkey said they were a severe blow to efforts to bring peace. Five Israeli human rights organisations demanded an urgent end to the killing of Palestinian civilians by Israeli security forces. A joint statement put out by the organisations says that since October 2000 at least 1,647 Palestinians - nearly half the number killed by Israeli troops - had been taking no part in fighting at the time of their deaths. The groups said 704 under-18s had been killed by Israeli troops and blamed "illegal expansion of Israel's open-fire regulations, double messages regarding the use of force... and failure to conduct independent investigations".

An Israeli army spokesman said chief of staff Dan Halutz had ordered an immediate stop to all artillery shelling of Gaza while an investigation was carried out into the incident. Speaking before the Hamas statement, Mr Abbas condemned the Israeli strikes in Gaza. "What the Israeli occupation forces are doing in the Gaza Strip constitutes a war of extermination and bloody massacres against our people," he said. UN Secretary General Kofi Annan said he was "deeply disturbed" by the killings and called for a full investigation. The foreign ministers of Russia and the UK also condemned the strike [9].

On June 11, 2006, eleven Palestinians including nine civilians were killed in an Israeli missile attack on a vehicle carrying militants on their way to fire rockets [10].

On June 26, 2006, several Palestinian militias claimed responsibility for the attack of a Israeli military post, killing two soldiers and kidnapping the Corporal Gilad Shalit [11]. The kidnappers called for Israel to release hundreds of imprisoned Palestinians under the age of 18. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert denied any negotiations and alternatively, in response to the two killed soldiers and the one kidnapped, called for a military operation in Gaza to extract the kidnapped soldier.

[edit]
Current situation
See also: Israel's unilateral disengagement plan
On 12 July 2006, some of Hezbollah's armed wing [1] captured two Israeli Defense Forces soldiers on the Israel Lebanon border, action taken in the past to arrange for exchange with Lebanese and Palestinian civilians imprisoned by the state of Israel. According to various media reports [12], the soldiers were captured on the Lebanese side of the border, as they entered the town of Aïtaa al-Chaab [13]. According to UNIFIL, Hizbollah fighters crossed the Blue Line into Israel and attacked the IDF patrol, capturing two soldiers [14] [15]. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert called the soldiers' capture "an act of war," and his Cabinet prepared to approve more military action in Lebanon [16]. Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora said Beirut did not condone the cross-border Hezbollah attack [17]. Israel continued its responce with Operation Just Reward[2], later renamed Operation Change of Direction. The Israeli military strikes claimed the lives of over 540 Lebanese civilians and wounded at least 600 while continued rocket attacks by Hezbollah forces (at least 1500 by some estimates[3]) have killed far fewer thus far, and in fact have a higher number of Israeli soldier than civilian deaths. The Israeli operation has resulted in the destruction of a large percentage of the Lebanese civil infrastructure including Lebanons only international airport, certain sea ports, many roads, dozens of bridges on the Beirut - Damascus international highway and on other major roads linking various parts of Lebanon, a lighthouse, wheat silo, petrol stations, factories and fuel storage tanks. Israel claimed the targeting of the infrastructure was to disrupt the supply of arms from Syria and Iran, believed to be the sponsors of Hezbollah. More than half a million civilians from Lebanon have fled their homes. In Israel, 1.5 million Israeli civilians left their homes in the north or taking shelter in underground bomb shelters due to rocket attacks by Hezbollah on Isreali cities. The indiscriminant and ineffective volley of Qassam, Katyusha and RAAD missiles from Southern Lebanon have claimed the lives of over 30 Israelis including Israeli Arabs and has wounded over 400 others. The level of destruction that has hit Lebanon has been described by the country's Prime Minister Fuad Seniora as "unimaginable". Seniora sent a desperate cry for the world to help stop the violence, and pressure Hezbollah and Israel into an immediate ceasefire so that peaceful negotiations might occur. Israel has said it will only consider a ceasefire offered by the Lebanese government if two goals are met - the removal and disarmament of Hezbollah, and the return of the kidnapped soldiers. [4] Although the government of Lebanon has appealed to the United Nations for aid in an immediate cease fire, several key countries of the United Nations Security Council, including those in the G8, specifically, United States, United Kingdom and Germany, refuse to support such a move. On 25 July 2006, an Israeli attack on a United Nation's observer base located near Hezbollah base in southern Lebanon led to the killing of four UN observers, a day before the Rome-summit which was called to find a solution for the crisis. Kofi Anan initially considered the death of the observers to be premeditated, which led to strong indignation from Israel. Following U.S. demands, the UN Council didn't condemn the Israeli attack on the UN observer post but settled for expressing its shock at the bombing. China, which had one of its peacekeepers killed in the air strike, had wanted a stronger statement condemning the attack.

So, Atheist, is it that you are having a difficlt time understanding what this very unbiased source is saying, or is it that you feel people here are so gullible that they would just take your word for the interpretation? It seems to indicate that the Israelis may in fact have instigated the violence in the first place, in direct opposition to your "analysis".

I am going out tommorow to teach a group of children that indeed you, atheist, are different from other people and should be watched carefully, (see my reasoning above) while no particular universal qualities can be ascribed to arabs and muslims because they are far too large and diverse a group to ever be viewed in one way or another, which almost every normal person on this forum already knows.

J

P.S.

Stop the bombing, end the occupation, raze the settlements, tear down the wall and watch terrorist acts against the US and Israel fall to almost 0.

Posted by: J | August 2, 2006 02:16 AM

that wretched place is not called
ISRAHELL
for nothing

Posted by: Robert | August 2, 2006 03:47 AM


This included some Israeli military and governmental quotes that appear to give greater perspective to the high rate of civilian causulties. Not a big fan of Buchanon, but he is right on regarding our Policies concerning Israel.

From the boston herald:

Israel's overkill enabled by immoral U.S. policy
By Patrick J. Buchanan/ Syndicated Columnist
Wednesday, August 2, 2006

"Everyone in southern Lebanon is a terrorist and is connected to Hezbollah," roared Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon on July 27.

"Every village from which a Katyusha is fired must be destroyed," bellowed an Israeli general in the Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth.

The paper then summarized what the justice minister and general were saying: "In other words, a village from which rockets are fired at Israel will simply be destroyed by fire." That was Thursday.


Sunday, in Qana, 57 of Haim Ramon's "terrorists," 37 of them children, were massacred with precision-guided bombs. Apparently, Katyushas had been fired from Qana, near the destroyed building.

"One who goes to sleep with rockets shouldn't be surprised if he doesn't wake up in the morning," said Israel's ambassador to the United Nations, Dan Gillerman.

Today, we hear unctuous statements about how Israel takes pains to avoid civilian casualties, drops leaflets to warn civilians to flee target areas and conforms to all the rules of civilized warfare.

But Israel's words and deeds contradict her propaganda.

Gillerman, at a pro-Israel rally in New York, thundered, "To those countries who claim that we are using disproportionate force, I have only this to say: You're damn right we are."

Gillerman spoke the truth. No sooner had Hezbollah taken the two Israeli soldiers hostage than Israel unleashed an air war - on Lebanon. It was the moral equivalent of a municipal police ravaging an African-American community because Black Panthers had killed cops.

If Israel is not in violation of the principle of proportionality, by which Christians are to judge the conduct of a just war, what can that term mean? There are 600 civilian dead in Lebanon, 19 in Israel, a ratio of 30-1.

Yet, whatever one thinks of the morality of what Israel is doing, the stupidity is paralyzing. Now, 87 percent of Lebanese back Hezbollah, and the entire Arab and Islamic world is rallying behind Hassan Nasrallah.

And how does one defend our behavior?

When Gillerman was exulting in the disproportionality of Israel's attack on Lebanon, U.S. Sen. Hillary Clinton was smiling smugly beside him. When the U.N. Security Council tabled a resolution condemning Hezbollah's igniting of the war, but also the excesses of Israel's reprisals, U.S. Ambassador John Bolton vetoed it. When a few congressmen sought to moderate a pro-Israeli resolution by adding words urging "all sides to protect innocent life and infrastructure," GOP leader John Boehner ordered the words taken down.

America shares full moral and political responsibility for the massacre at Qana. Our Israeli friends appear to be playing us for fools."

J

Posted by: J | August 2, 2006 05:46 AM

I think America will not be america without jews. Without them america would have turned to be another religious fanatic racist country. They keep the balance except when it comes to Israel. they lose every moral fiber in their body. They become evil when it comes to creating Greater israel.

But i am pissed at the way they cry when people critcize Israel calling them "Anti-Semite"...blah blah.

I started to see a jew conspiracy!. They wanted to protect themself. They wanted to have their own place called home. But here is where things gets nasty.

Read Leo Strauss (check wikipidia) philosophy. It is dangerous. Anti democratic and imperialistic philosophy. He is a pro Nihilist. Who are his students? American policy makers. Who are they?. Jews. WHy everyone is a Jew? Names please?. Wolfowitz....every one around Bush Admin. Any non jew in that circle are slaves to jew. World is reversed. Jews are on top.

Jews are using america to create Greater Israel. They intend on using american lives to wipe out all muslims in middle east.Move there once they wipe out syria, lebanon, egypt and jordan. They will continue to harass and kill muslims until they flee for life.

Jews may look like patriotic americans now. But they will turn their back to america and move to Israel once it captures syria and lebanon. Bigger war is coming. The plan is set. Why bush won twice? Democratic jews jump the ship and voted for Bush. Why democrats suck? Simply because jewish democrats in democratic party. They undemine all democrats to support bush? Why?

Bush is an idiot. They can manipulate him easy. All they have to do is throw some money at his family and exploit his religious weakness. All they have to say is praise this fool. Praise him that he is great leader.

So what is the big conspiracy? Well they are planning to use american resources and non jew american lives to create their Dream jewish superpower Israel. So what is wrong about that? They will not stop there.

Well based on their tendency , they actually loved hitler methods and nihilistic philosophies even they steadfastly refuse. They learned something.

They intend on creating new enemy(read leo strauss) even if there is n't one. And wipe them out before they even think of it. The pre-emptive war is created by jews. They plan to murder all non jews if they don't listen to them. As far as muslims concerns, they will kill all muslims.

Qana is just an example of what to come. I know people won't believe me but i can predict the future. Timeline may vary but it is going to happen.

Jews are convincing non jew american policy makers that Israel will stop all enemies and will be the gate for west. The thing though , jews do not care about america or anybody. They care only about jews. So what is wrong with that?. Every community care about their community. Well jews will annihilate others. It is coming.

I know we have a muslim problem. Muslims are as much aggressive like jews except that muslims lack brain power and tactics. They are like child try to show off their bravdo and courage. Muslims believe in courage and martyrdom. If you wish for martyrdom , you will get it. Never wish for death. That is bad bad idea in koran. Koran is a bad idea in 20th century.

Back to jews. They created sept 11. There was one striking comment by leo strauss. Perpetual pattern of deception of public is required. It open my eyes and their future plan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss
Strauss was much more sympathetic to Nietzsche's terror at thisprospect compared to Heidegger's belief that nihilism, properlyunderstood, contained the possibility of mankind's salvation.

Strauss taught some of his students to believe "perpetual deception ofthe citizens by those in power is critical because they need to be led,and they need strong rulers to tell them what's good for them

The way america has been conquered by jews even others refuse to admit that this is the case. They will not let another demcoract win next election even if it is hillary clinton. They will undermine her.

Posted by: Alex | August 2, 2006 05:51 AM

The plan is set. Greater Israel time has come. They will not get another chance. They will go after syria to iran.

I believe Jews in america and Israel made a mistake this time. With internet , everyone remember the masscre of qana and cowardice by america and every World leaders(afraid of jews) and including UN not to condemn that gruesome killing. UN is a joke.

Only way to stop this is , Do not let jews to create Bigger Israel or let Israel occupy those countries. America has to tell Israel to keep high moral standrad than hebollah. And most important of all. Creation of Palestenian State.

If you don't know who is leo strauss?. He is the GOD Father of NEO CONSERVATIVES(jews).

America is duped. Even intelligent americans are getting duped.

Muslims are evil And we obsessed with thema nd forget there is something else going on. I know common americans do not have time to think that deep about the world. But what is shocking is even that intelligent non jew americans fail to what is coming.

I hope i am wrong that there will not be Greater Israel and Israel will hold high moral standard for its actions.

So far Israel is behaving exactly i predicted. They harras, torture and humiliate palestenians. Any sane human under occupation reacts after some time. They react and they they are harrased as terrorists constantly. There is a clear pattern emerges. Even some of the hamas terrorist actions are mozzad funded. So they can keep blaming palestenians until they wipe them out.

Constant War is the only way to create Greater Israel. Easy to see.

Do you wonder why democrast suk and don't fight well against republicans? There are few Neo conservatives with Democrats mask undermining democratic party. They need bush to create Greater Israel and conquer Middle east.

Posted by: Alex | August 2, 2006 07:57 AM

Chuch Shumar, Joe Libberman etc critics of Bush extend full support when it comes to the prsident's Israeli policies. The reason: obvious.You mention it, you will incarcirated.

Posted by: Dr.Joji Cherian | August 2, 2006 09:51 AM

STATISTICS ABOUT LEBANON

1. Lebanon has 18 religious communities
2. It has 40 daily newspapers
3. It has 42 universities
4. It has over 100 banks (that is banks and not branches of a bank)
5. 70% of the students are in private schools
6. 40% of the Lebanese people are Christians (this is the highest
percent all the Arab countries)
7. There's 1 doctor per 10 people in Lebanon (In Europe & America,
there's 1 doctor per 100 people)
8. The name LEBANON appears 75 times in the Old Testament
9. The name CEDAR (Lebanon's tree) appears 75 times too in the Old
Testament!!
10. Beirut was destroyed and rebuilt 7 times (this is why it's
compared to The Phoenix).

11. There are 3.5 Million Lebanese in Lebanon
12. There are around 10 Million Lebanese outside Lebanon!

OTHER INTERESTING FACTS

1. Byblos (city in Lebanon) is the oldest, continuously living city in the world.
2. Lebanon's name has been around for 4,000 yrs non- stop (it's the oldest
country/ nation's name in the world!)
3. Lebanon is the only Asian/African country that doesn't have a desert.
4. There are 15 rivers in Lebanon (all of them coming from its own mountains)
5. Lebanon is one of the most populated countries in its archeological
sites, in the world!!!
6. The first alphabet was created in Byblos (city in Lebanon)
7. The only remaining temple of Jupiter (the main Roman god) is in
Baalbeck, Lebanon (The City of the Sun)
8. The name of BYBLOS comes from the BIBLE!!!
9. Lebanon is the country that has the most books written about it.
10. The Phoenicians (Original People of Lebanon) built the 1st boat, and
they were the first to sail ever!
11. Phoenicians also reached America long before Christopher Columbus did.
12. The 1st law school in the world was built in Lebanon, in Downtown
Beirut.
Isn't it a real Crime Against Humanity to destroy a country with such history?

Posted by: Why | August 2, 2006 10:03 AM

Good morning fanatics!

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0608020160aug02,1,3607732.story?coll=chi-opinionfront-hed

Posted by: Miriam | August 2, 2006 10:07 AM

"Good morning fanatics!

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0608020160aug02,1,3607732.story?coll=chi-opinionfront-hed

Posted by: Miriam | August 2, 2006 10:07 AM "


Please!! a group with Martin "Goebels" Kramer in it writing an article condoning israeli war crimes ....what a shocker!!

Posted by: Angus | August 2, 2006 11:21 AM

"why" wrote:

"Isn't it a real Crime Against Humanity to destroy a country with such history?"

I chiefly blame the coward Arab governments. Israel is doing what it always did in Lebanon.

It is perfectly possible today to defeat the Israeli assault on international law through different means including a continous oil embargo until Israel respects every single UN resolution against it.

Arabs have been fooled into this "land for peace" deal.

Posted by: Karim | August 2, 2006 11:34 AM

Please explain to me why the Lebanese h

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/07/30/wmid330.xml
Hmmm.. how interesting...

'We are ready to strap explosives to our children and send them to Israel'
By Colin Freeman in Tyre
(Filed: 30/07/2006)

Nayfa Muhanna's childbearing days are long over, her husband having taken a second wife to produce the younger half of his huge clutch of 16 children.

Now, though, after Israeli -helicopter missiles destroyed the family farmhouse and wiped out their entire tobacco crop, she finds herself feeling broody again.

"It is our duty as mothers to start producing more boys to help the resistance," she said, to cheers from other residents in their refugee camp in the -southern Lebanese city of Tyre, where all 19 family members pitched up a fortnight ago. "We want them to be martyrs for their country in the fight against Israel."

Nobody could accuse the family of not doing its bit for the "Party of God".

Asked about the fighting in their village of Majdel Zoun, just a few miles from the Israeli border, Nayfa, 47, proudly mentions that her brother "disappeared" that day - not a suggestion that he is buried under rubble, but a coded way of stating that he has slipped off to join Hezbollah's forces.

The next time she sees him he may well be in a coffin. Yet, if so, there appears to be no shortage of family members willing to replace him on the front line. "I am very excited about defending my country," said her oldest son Mahdi, who is just 15. "If I do not, and others do not, then who will?"

After two weeks of Israel's military offensives on the southern Lebanese border, a whole new generation of youngsters like Mahdi is being groomed to follow in their uncle's footsteps.

Mahdi has dreamed of joining Hezbollah ever since he was 10, yet until two weeks ago the "enemy" has never been more than a vague presence at border fences.

Now, though, he and thousands of other children who are too young to remember the last major Israeli incursion 10 years ago have witnessed a new one first-hand, yielding a fresh crop of traumatised young minds that Hezbollah's propaganda machine can mould.

The Israeli army psy-ops leaflets airdropped into the border villages, which caricature Hezbollah leaders as cowardly snakes who send followers needlessly to the slaughter, are unlikely to win them over, especially not with so many of their parents spurring them on.

"We are ready to strap explosives to our children and send them to Israel," said Naim Mussalmani, 35, a farmer who fled the village of Shaitiah, on Tyre's outskirts. "My own brother exploded himself against the Israelis in 1998. Our women and children are ready to go out and fight if needs be."

In the past two weeks, the normally peaceful Mediterranean holiday resort of Tyre has been flooded with refugees fleeing the farming villages dotting the Israeli border as they become battlegrounds for fierce clashes between Hezbollah guerrillas and their Israeli foes.

The port city offers limited security as a safe haven: the crash of Israeli ordnance into the surrounding hillsides shakes Tyre's buildings relentlessly, and the sky over the deserted luxury marina hums constantly with jets and drone spyplanes.

Town Hall officials estimate that more than two thirds of Tyre's population of 270,000 have fled the city, leaving it more deserted than a rundown holiday resort in midwinter.

Shops are shuttered, rubbish lies festering in stinking piles, and the only signs of life are in the schools and government buildings where villagers from the border areas have sought safety.

With few humanitarian convoys able to reach them because of damage to the main road from Beirut, living conditions for the diaspora are grim. The luckier ones are crammed into long established Palestinian refugee camps, while the less fortunate are billeted in school classrooms, living off aid packages and with little access to washing facilities.

Worst off are those still trapped in the villages, unable to access even Tyre's meagre sanctuary because of the house-sized scoops that Israeli missiles have gouged in the narrow country roads.

Yet, despite the privations it has caused, there is little tangible sign of the Israeli campaign undermining support for Hezbollah.

Among those from the villages, where nearly every house flies a Hezbollah flag, nobody queries the movement's fateful decision to kidnap two Israeli soldiers, nobody blames it for the death and destruction it has provoked, and nobody even expects the organisation to look after them in the consequent chaos.

"The Government of Lebanon is not taking care of us properly," said Mr Mussalmani. "We have to look to our Palestinian brothers, who are refugees of Israeli aggression themselves, to help us out.

We do not ask Hezbollah for medicine or help. That is needed for their fighters, who are giving their blood for the nation. The whole of southern Lebanon are now ready to become martyrs."

The women standing around him in headscarfs shouted their agreement.

Posted by: SM | August 2, 2006 02:36 PM

Here is an account of the last time the Israelis massacred innocent civilians in Qana. This was a U.N refugee camp. What excuse was there for this?


Here is a link to a description of Robert Fisk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fisk

Robert Fisk
Qana, 19 April 1996

It was a massacre. Not since Sabra and Chatila had I seen the innocent slaughtered like this. The Lebanese refugee women and children and men lay in heaps, their hands or arms or legs missing, beheaded or disembowelled. There were well over a hundred of them. A baby lay without a head. The Israeli shells had scythed through them as they lay in the United Nations shelter, believing that they were safe under the world's protection. Like the Muslims of Srebrenica, the Muslims of Qana were wrong.

In front of a burning building of the UN's Fijian battalion headquarters, a girl held a corpse in her arms, the body of a grey- haired man whose eyes were staring at her, and she rocked the corpse back and forth in her arms, keening and weeping and crying the same words over and over: "My father, my father." A Fijian UN soldier stood amid a sea of bodies and, without saying a word, held aloft the body of a headless child.

"The Israelis have just told us they'll stop shelling the area", a UN soldier said, shaking with anger. "Are we supposed to thank them?" In the remains of a burning building - the conference room of the Fijian UN headquarters - a pile of corpses was burning. The roof had crashed in flames onto their bodies, cremating them in front of my eyes. When I walked towards them, I slipped on a human hand...

Israel's slaughter of civilians in this terrible 10-day offensive - 206 by last night - has been so cavalier, so ferocious, that not a Lebanese will forgive this massacre. There had been the ambulance attacked on Saturday, the sisters killed in Yohmor the day before, the 2-year-old girl decapitated by an Israeli missile four days ago. And earlier yesterday, the Israelis had slaughtered a family of 12 - the youngest was a four- day-old baby - when Israeli helicopter pilots fired missiles into their home.

Shortly afterwards, three Israeli jets dropped bombs only 250 metres from a UN convoy on which I was travelling, blasting a house 30 feet into the air in front of my eyes. Travelling back to Beirut to file my report on the Qana massacre to the Independent last night, I found two Israeli gunboats firing at the civilian cars on the river bridge north of Sidon.

Every foreign army comes to grief in Lebanon. The Sabra and Chatila massacre of Palestinians by Israel's militia allies in 1982 doomed Israel's 1982 invasion. Now the Israelis are stained again by the bloodbath at Qana, the scruffy little Lebanese hill town where the Lebanese believe Jesus turned water into wine.

The Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres may now wish to end this war. But the Hizbollah are not likely to let him. Israel is back in the Lebanese quagmire. Nor will the Arab world forget yesterday'a terrible scenes.

The blood of all the refugees ran quite literally in streams from the shell-smashed UN compound restaurant in which the Shiite Muslims from the hill villages of southern Lebanon - who had heeded Israel's order to leave their homes - had pathetically sought shelter. Fijian and French soldiers heaved another group of dead - they lay with their arms tightly wrapped around each other - into blankets.

A French UN trooper muttered oaths to himself as he opened a bag in which he was dropping feet, fingers, pieces of people's arms. And as we walked through this obscenity, a swarm of people burst into the compound. They had driven in wild convoys down from Tyre and began to pull the blankets off the mutilated corpses of their mothers and sons and daughters and to shriek "Allahu Akbar" (God is Great") and to threaten the UN troops.

We had suddenly become not UN troops and journalists but Westerners, Israel's allies, an object of hatred and venom. One bearded man with fierce eyes stared at us, his face dark with fury. "You are Americans", he screamed at us. "Americans are dogs. You did this. Americans are dogs."

President Bill Clinton has allied himself with Israel in its war against "terrorism" and the Lebanese, in their grief, had not forgotten this. Israel's official expression of sorrow was rubbing salt in their wounds. "I would like to be made into a bomb and blow myself up amid the Israelis", one old man said.

As for the Hizbollah, which has repeatedly promised that Israelis will pay for their killing of Lebanese civilians, its revenge cannot be long in coming. Operation Grapes of Wrath may then turn out then to be all too aptly named.

Posted by: Zain | August 2, 2006 04:02 PM

Please view and let me know what you think about this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HlaVpqUXF0

Posted by: SM | August 2, 2006 06:26 PM

Zain
Your post 4:02, Fisk, breaks my heart...has it been posted all over? Every place you can find? AND.. FYI, see Stolbert's piece on the front page, NYT. Read beween the lines. It's beginning, finally. Separation.

Posted by: disgusted american | August 2, 2006 06:32 PM

The military operations lack complete planning and amount to revenge. Let's remember that the Israelis don't want to "send the wrong signal" (what a lame reasoning) because "we don't negotiate with 'terrorists'".

The nazis wiped the czech town of Lidice based on the same "logic": pure revenge. These actions can only bring a outcome: Israel's neighbours will want to have bigger weapons. They'd have to kill all newborn arabs so they won't take revenge, 'cause they most know that revenge isn't only a hebrew quality, or they must build a Berlin wall that completely protects them from the outside world.

What is obvious to me is that the arrogance coming from such a tiny fraction of land has been possible because of the weapons provided by both the US and the UK. They long would have dealt with their neighbours and live in a better way now.

Posted by: Richard | August 2, 2006 08:01 PM

Israel's behaviour reminds me of King Herod. They will reach Hitler's 50:1 ratio soon.

Posted by: Brian | August 2, 2006 11:12 PM

This is important for everyone to read;

A Lebanese Shia explains how Hezbollah uses Human Shields
Der Tagesspiegel ^ | 7/30/06 | Dr. Mounir Herzallah

Posted on 07/31/2006 1:49:58 PM PDT by abu afak

In a letter to the editor of the Berlin daily Der Tagesspiegel a Lebanese Shia explains how after Israel's withdrawal from South Lebanon, Hezbollah stored rockets in bunkers in his town and built a school and residence over it.

""I lived until 2002 in a small southern village near Mardshajun that is inhabited by a majority of Shias like me. After Israel left Lebanon, it did not take long for Hezbollah to have the say in our town and all other towns. Received as successful resistance fighters, they appeared armed to the teeth and dug rocket depots in bunkers in our town as well. The social work of the Party of God consisted in building a school and a residence over these bunkers!

A local sheikh explained to me Laughing that the Jews would lose in any event because the rockets would either be fired at them or if they attacked the rocket depots, they would be condemned by world opinion on account of the dead civilians. These people do not care about the Lebanese population, they use them as shields, and, once dead, as propaganda. As long as they continue existing there, there will be no tranquility and peace.""

Dr. Mounir Herzallah Berlin-Wedding

(translated from the German by David Ouellette)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1675290/posts

Still think this doesn't happen???

Posted by: SM | August 3, 2006 12:20 AM

Has anybody here ever ask to themselves why the goverment of the U.S. gives Israel $5 Billion dollars a year in aid PLUS military assistance, technology transfers,import tariffs preferential treatment etc, WHY? I don't hate ISRAEL but why should they get MY MONEY.What exactly do we ge out of it? I don't want to hear that crap about democracy and freedom, that is B.S. If we would ever give that kind of aid to mexico and just give them the condition that they seal the border,we would not have any inmigration problems, Why should I give a hoot about Israel? They get more money from US than the rest of the American continent (About 32 countries and almost 1 Billion people) Israel's population is about 6 million.HOW can they exert so much power with the U.S. HOW?. Sometimes when I see the press conferences at the White House they are allways cheerleading Israel,HOW about spending those $5 Billion here in NEW ORLEANS, how about OUR people here?, OUR tax money.If ISRAEL wants american weapons, they should pay for it.It's pathetic when I see all those senators and the sorry president we have ask ISRAEL how high they should jump.You should see Tony Snow making excuses for Israel is like they are working for Israel and not for the U.S.
Everytime I see opinion polls saying that we support Israel and blah,blah,They have never calle me and ask me.If the jews and the muslims want to kill each other,screw them let them do it. I don't see Switzerland getting involved.We need to stop getting involved in everybody else's business and worry about all the problems we have here.Health Care, Social Security,Education,Housing,Energy independence from those freaks,that should be our priority not Israel.

Posted by: Michael | August 3, 2006 12:31 AM

Michael,

Then please make your voice heard with your representative and friends.

AIPAC (Israel's arm in the US) might be strong at this point but only because not many people challenge it. We have to remember that they don't have 100 million followers.

A strong grassroots movement in America can easily bankrupt this vicious immoral organization that has sold America's interests in favor of the messianic ideology of Israel.


Posted by: Karim | August 3, 2006 12:45 AM

Michael-
I'm not going to address all of your points, but I will say one thing. One of the benefits of having a loyal, true and long-standing stable ally in the Middle East is use of the Navy base in Haifa whenever the U.S. needs it.

"If the jews and the muslims want to kill each other,screw them let them do it. I don't see Switzerland getting involved.We need to stop getting involved in everybody else's business and worry about all the problems we have here."

Sadly, your attitude reminds me of what I've read about the attitudes of people during WWII. Just substitute a few groups, and you have the same idea (i.e., Nazis, Jews, etc.) The U.S. didn't get involved early enough to save MILLIONS of people from dying. You don't care??? People SHOULD care about the stability of the Middle East. It's a very complicated situation, but there are powers that need to be kept in check. Don't think those factors can't someday soon have an effect on your cozy little life here.

Posted by: SM | August 3, 2006 03:12 AM

SM:

"One of the benefits of having a loyal, true and long-standing stable ally in the Middle East is use of the Navy base in Haifa whenever the U.S. needs it. "

Israel is costing America its image, lives, and money.

What makes you think the US would need some navy base in Israel? to engage in more killings?

America must divorces itself from this violent immoral state of Israel that was founded on injustice.

Arabs would sooner or later take care of this Israeli arrogance.

It is 300 million Arabs and growing. Make no mistake we will NEVER EVER forget Zionist crimes.

Posted by: Karim | August 3, 2006 03:32 AM

I hope that you include in your memories the crimes of Muslims against Muslims as well.

Say what you want about the "Zionist crimes." Israel was not founded on injustice. Israel was founded by the United Nations and the British as a legitimate country that most of the modern and evolved world recognizes. When the Arabs behave in uncivilized ways with suicide bombings, threats of violence, rockets being fired, etc., it's going to be difficult for them to make their voice heard in a legitimate arena. I refuse to believe that all Arabs/Muslims support the violence that the radicals promote. Are you proposing that Arabs use violence to achieve their means?

Once again, I will remind you that the overriding problem is Israel's existence at all. Even if the Israelis have the tiniest bit of land, the Arabs will attempt to take it away. Am I right? Can you be honest enough to admit that? This "land for peace" issue belies the truth.

Posted by: SM | August 3, 2006 03:40 AM

For one: "On Wednesday, both the Lebanese Health Ministry and the Human Rights Watch said that they could confirm only 28 of the originally reported 57 civilians who died in the building."* Given this, how can you believe the rest of the story of Qana? Not that this is the point. Israeli Jews are allowed to be killed at any expense, but if the IDF goes in and warns civilians to leave a building inhabited by Hizbullah, its sworn enemy who won't be satisfied unless all Jews leave the area of Israel, and are forced to defend themselves at the expense of the human shelters there, WOH UNTO THEM. Only Jews are allowed to be killed without the world in an uproar? Jews, who have claim to this land for thousands of years, not to mention in THE BIBLE, are not allowed to have even a PART OF IT. Its Arab enemies (which are not all Arabs!) won't be satisfied with a "Palestinian" State next door to it. If they would be, there would have been peace long ago. The Jews tried that (read: Sinai Withdrawal, Oslo Accords, Lebanon Withdrawal, Gaza "Disengagement"). The response? Only more fire. A nation cannot allow this. Would the US or any other Western nation allow such kidnaps and killings without a major response, after having GIVEN UP LAND TO TRY FOR PEACE? Admit it: NO.

*http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525796295&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Posted by: Chaya V | August 3, 2006 12:25 PM

Dear SM,
To be quite honest with you it comes down to one thing: The United States best interests should concern me more than Israel's interests.That stability crap and that stuff about millions of people dying,then tell me what about Darfur,and all of the other places where killing is wholesale? Is a jewish life,or arab life worth more than an african life.Of course I care, but what I am sick of is the fixation this goverment has with Israel.HOW, tell me HOW will we ever be seen as impartial an honest brokers of PEACE when american planes,american bombs are killing arabs,and then the president of the UNITED STATES has the audacity to go on TV and say that he cares about LEBANON,that my friend is laughable and that is one of the many reasons why we are seen as hypocrites throught the world.I'm concerned about where the money that I pay in taxes goes,it is my money and I should have a say in it.Israel cares first and foremost about Israel,then tell me why I should not care first and foremost about the U.S. A very small group in this country has way too much leverage on the goverment and that should stop.$5 Billion with a B, is alot of freaking money and I know I'm not getting my money's worth.The truth is that no matter what,that fighting over there will never stop, and nobody outside here buys that freedom and democracy crap that the white house is spinning,changes only happen when people want to change,you can not force change specially when you are an outsider and on top of that people don't like you or trust you.Enough is enough, we should maximize the return on OUR resources,we need to rethink our approach to foreign policy,the current approach is not working and we are throwing good money after bad money,sadly with this current president it's not going to happen.This president lives in LALA land and not in the real world.
michael.

Posted by: Michael | August 3, 2006 12:57 PM

SM:

The so-called peace process is dead. That is it.

I am waiting for both Jordan and Egypt to break diplomatic relations with this state of occupation and murder.

In Jordan, the association of writers is petitioning the government to severe Israeli ties and is collecting 1 million signiture to do so.

Also as a Moroccan myself, I will oppose any Moroccan normalization with Israel. I have also started boycotting Israeli goods again.

3 Moroccan lawyers in Morocco Rabat are suing Amir Peretz, Israeli defense Minister, who is Moroccan-born and still holds the Moroccan citizenship. This war-criminal should know that he can never set foot in Morocco again or else be arrested.

3 Jewish political figures (Serfaty, Elmaleh, Asidoun) in Morocco have also condemned the Israeli attacks.

Posted by: karim | August 3, 2006 01:01 PM

Saudi government says no oil embargo

http://www.tradearabia.com/tanews/newsdetails_snECO_article109126_cnt.html

Well what do you expect from cowards.

They are taking advantage of high-oil prices while Israel has sealed off Lebanon completely and many people don't even have enough food!

Saudi Arabia also just bought another round of killing machines from the US, with oil of course.

The Saudi people must sooner or later get rid off of the puppets in their government.

Posted by: Karim | August 3, 2006 01:33 PM

CHAYA....YOU AND YOUR POST ARE BENEATH CONTEMPT. DO YOU NEVER QUIT? PERHAPS, it is a glimmer of light to know the Jews are at least "embarassed" at being caught in a massacre. Not the massacre itself. The piling on by denial is obscene. But then, of course.

Posted by: Civilized world | August 3, 2006 02:08 PM

Karim-

Well, well. Imagine that. The Jordanians SIGN a peace treaty with Israel, and now they want to reneg on it. Even though the current conflict has nothing to do with Jordan. Beautiful. Shows exactly what kind of neighbors Israel really has. They are showing their true colors, and I'm never surprised.

Posted by: SM | August 3, 2006 02:39 PM

SM wrote:

"Well, well. Imagine that. The Jordanians SIGN a peace treaty with Israel, and now they want to reneg on it."

I know with 100% certainty that Israel has NEVER reneged on a promise - such an honorable and internation law-abiding country! I guess you must think that most of us on this blog have never read The Israel Lobby paper by Mearsheimer and Walt.

SM continues:
"Shows exactly what kind of neighbors Israel really has. They are showing their true colors, and I'm never surprised."

Ever heard of "The Clean Break" paper by American zionists written for Israel.

Posted by: RB | August 3, 2006 11:33 PM

RB:
What's your point? Regarding the Israel Lobby paper...When I read that David Duke offered great praise for this paper, I'm inclined to disregard it.

Here's what Christopher Hitchens wrote about the Israel Lobby paper in an article entitled "Overstating Jewish Power:
Mearsheimer and Walt give too much credit to the Israeli lobby.":

"Mearsheimer and Walt belong to that vapid school that essentially wishes that the war with jihadism had never started. Their wish is father to the thought that there must be some way, short of a fight, to get around this confrontation. Wishfulness has led them to seriously mischaracterize the origins of the problem and to produce an article that is redeemed from complete dullness and mediocrity only by being slightly but unmistakably smelly."

(http://www.slate.com/id/2138741/)

Many experts and commentators attribute anti-semitism to this paper. You're not going to win any points in this blog by bringing that up.

Plus, it still doesn't detract from the reactions of the governments in Jordan and Egypt that are considering a break in peaceful relations with Israel. This after Israel gave up the entire Sinai to have peace with Egypt. Some things never change.

Posted by: SM | August 4, 2006 12:01 AM

Dear SM, If you love Israel so much, why don't you give up your US citizenship,become an Israeli citizen,Join the IDF and get out of here.Do you work for the Israeli embassy?.MY loyalty is with the US,first,last and foremost,period.
If you want to have an argument,make valid points with evidence that can sustain your points.The points I tried to underscore have been proven with facts.Why do we need Israel, we need Mexico more than Israel,We need Canada more than Israel,We need the south American continent more than Israel,What do they offer US,please tell me why they should get $5Billion in Aid annually,military technology transfers,trade breaks,preferential treatment,Israel has no oil,We deal with the freaking Saudis because they have Oil,What is exactly the benefit of our one sided relations with Israel? Why should we kiss Israel's behind?
Because a few jews from Brooklin live there? There are a lot of Americans living in Costa Rica, Should we give Costa Rica $5 Billion in Aid yearly? Give me a response with proof and evidence please,Don't start ranting about terrorists and freedom and democracy? What is the difference when a suicide bomber kills 10 innocent women and children, than when an Israeli F-16 plane (OUR PLANE, given for free to Israel)kills 10 innocent women and children.To me Both cases are terrorism.Different means to achieve the same end result.Israel DOES NOT have the high moral ground all the time.Our goverment should not give Israel the green light all the time.OUR interest should allways come first.

Posted by: Michael | August 4, 2006 12:40 AM

Michael-
You wrote:
"What is the difference when a suicide bomber kills 10 innocent women and children, than when an Israeli F-16 plane (OUR PLANE, given for free to Israel)kills 10 innocent women and children.To me Both cases are terrorism."

If you think you can prove moral equivalency in the example you gave during your last ranting, then go right ahead and address your comments to everyone else who supports your thinking in this blog.

There is absolutely NO comparison between a suicide bomber blowing up innocent civilians in the course of their everyday life and the ACCIDENTAL death of civilians during a war.

In case you don't understand what's going on, let me spell it out for you. Israel is at war with a group of people (Hezbollah) who want to ensure its destruction. War is a horrible and messy operation. There is no clean way to wage war. People are going to die, and unfortunately, some of those people are innocent people caught in the crossfire on BOTH SIDES. This is a horrific tragedy. But don't you dare tell me that terrorists who specifically target civilians in order to kill them and incite psychological terror are equivalent to what Israel needs to do in order to secure its northern border from repeated attacks on its citizens.

Posted by: SM | August 4, 2006 12:57 AM

Dear SM, I am still awating your response with valid,substantiated,documented,proven proof of the reasons WHY we the US should blindly support ISRAEL.Don't try to change the subject, and What exactly is OUR benefit from it, not Israel's OUR benefit.Don't try to change the subject,stick with it.Give me a precise response, not an ideological or political point of view,Give me FACTS,or shut up.By the way how do you know when "Accidental" is not accidental.What about the U.N. observers that got killed by ISRAEL,even after they called on the Israeli authorithies to stop shelling the U.N. post over 10 times? But don't change the subject ANSWER my question with HARD EVIDENCE,not happy talk you take from the white house spin playbook.

Posted by: Michael | August 4, 2006 02:01 AM

SM,

Every time I read your posting it becomes more clear to me that we, the US, must stop supporting Israel.

Posted by: Bill | August 4, 2006 10:24 AM

Dear SM,
I have never said in any of my postings if you read them carefully that we should stop supporting Israel,I have nothing against Israel, as a matter of fact I am a devout Catholic,my best friend is a Jew, and my supplier and customers are Jews,I am of hispanic descent and my wife is Algerian so I have no bias whatsoever against Israel.My point is that we should be Proportionate to every country and that we should care about Our well being before any other country.Is that being unreasonable? Why you keep evading giving me a Direct answer to the questions I presented to you? I know why,is because you don't have an answer.I dare you to prove me wrong with Facts.I know you can't because there is no reason's why the US goverment gives Israel so much support, Please SM prove me wrong,I am begging you not to be evasive.Do you have investments,If you do wouldn't you want maximum return on them? I bet you would, unless you are insane. MY country the US comes first allways, no matter what.I'm sure the Israelis feel that way too, and that is fine, Are you Israeli, maybe that will explain why you care more about Israel than the US, and that would be an acceptable reason.If you are not an Israeli then why the US should not be your first concern.Please tell me I've been waiting for your response.

Posted by: Michael | August 4, 2006 11:57 AM

Michael:

"Dear SM, If you love Israel so much, why don't you give up your US citizenship,become an Israeli citizen,Join the IDF and get out of here.Do you work for the Israeli embassy?.MY loyalty is with the US,first,last and foremost,period."

Few do go Israel, join the Israeli forces and even fight with them. Only American-zionists immigrate to Israel because of ideology and fanaticsm. One can understand others who live in poor countries like Russians, etc.

I don't know anyone who would join a foreign's country armed forces in combat except Zionists.

But you know, when you are told "Israel is your homeland" all your life, taken to Israel on Israeli government sponsored programs every summer (read state indoctrination), then don't be surprised.

The real threat though is not this, it is AIPAC and its neo-con allies that must be bankrupt before it bankrupts America.

Posted by: Karim | August 4, 2006 10:03 PM

Karim-

Well, I have to inform you that Israel IS the Jewish homeland, as it always has been throughout history. As I've stated about 10 or more times in these blogs, there were Jewish people in that region for millenia. If we're all supposed to respect other religions (which I do) and also respect the right of people to believe in the tenets of their religion (which I do), then you cannot argue that the Jew's biblical claims to the area that is now present-day Israel are invalid. Well, you can certainly make that argument, but should you? Can you not comprehend the importance of Israel for the Jewish people as a group? Israel is the spiritual homeland for all Jews past, present and future.

One of the many reasons that the modern-day state of Israel became a reality for the Jewish people was the culmination of centuries of longing for a place where they could practice their religion free of the persecution that occurred in EVERY country they inhabited.

There are numerous majority-Muslim countries, some of which operate predominantly under Muslim law. Do you find it unfair that these countries are governed this way? Or, is it just Israel that is condemned because it is a Jewish state?

Let's face it and get the truth on the table. The MAIN reason for the Arab/Muslim conflicts with Israel is NOT the territories. It IS the fact that Israel exists in its present-day location. It IS the fact that it's a Jewish state in the midst of Muslim countries.

If you believe otherwise, I'd really like to hear why.

Posted by: SM | August 4, 2006 11:56 PM

Michael:

I am not evading you. I don't have time to spend all of my waking hours in front of my computer screen, which is why I haven't responded to your emails. You might look into an anger management class because you certainly convey an awful lot of rage.

I'm going to attempt to address your issues, but I doubt if you'll be satisfied with my answers. I have answers based in fact, but my guess is that you won't agree with them. I will continue with my "ranting about "terrorism and democracy and freedom" as you put it. I don't agree with your assessment of the "white house spin playbook." I truly believe that the U.S. has always supported Israel because of its role as a democracy. It's not a perfect democracy, but there really isn't one in the world. Nevertheless, it's a democracy in the midst of the manaical dictators and autocrats that surround it. (Well, there was hope for Lebanon to function as a democracy, but Hezbollah had already infiltrated it for years.) And whether you agree with the policies or not, Israel and the U.S. have always have solid political and military cooperation. Stability in the Middle East is of utmost importance, right?

Read below:
"The US was the first country to recognize Israel, only minutes after it was officially created in 1948, consistent with a 1922 Congressional resolution backing the League of Nations mandate for a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Since then, the two countries have developed a rock-solid friendship that does not depend on the parties in power either in Washington or Jerusalem. While there have certainly been ups and downs, the basic bond between the US and Israel, the only country in the Middle East that resembles the US in its values and democracy, is very strong. Both countries have long-recognized that their mutual interests of deterring war, promoting stability and eventually achieving peace are only possible if the United States continues to stand firmly behind Israel."
(http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_israel_us_support.php)

If you have time, I encourage you to read the following article as it gives a good explanation for the strong alliance between the U.S. and Israel:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/001/225tpziw.asp?pg=1

(continued in my next post)

Posted by: SM | August 5, 2006 01:08 AM

In addition, I agree with you that domestic problems are of utmost concern in the United States. But, we cannot afford to ignore the growing instabilities in various regions around the world (i.e., Iran, North Korea, etc.) It does affect the United States ultimately. The tragedy of 9/11 was a wake-up call to our country, and we need to deal with threats to our citizens and our security. In our role as a superpower, it is our responsibility to assist those people around the world who are persecuted or denied basic rights. I guess I'm just idealistic, but it seems to me that democracy is the form of government that offers people the greatest chance for freedom, economic stability and security. And, of course, I don't support the tactics used by terrorists to get what they want.

Finally, I want to add that I am aware of how much foreign assistance Israel receives. I will also remind you that Egypt also receives a significant amount of aid.

"Each year the United States provides Egypt with $1.3 billion in foreign military financing (FMF) and approximately $1.2 million for international military education training (IMET) programs, Coulter said."

(http://usinfo.state.gov/mena/Archive/2006/May/18-612461.html)

The Palestinians have been given almost three-quarters of a billion dollars by the U.S. in the last ten years. Where is the accountibility for all that money? How is it that the former Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, was a BILLIONAIRE while his people lived in abject poverty? Where is his money now? Apparently, no one has been able to track his great wealth. His wife does appear to be living lavishly in Paris. Tell me how he became so rich as the representative for the poor Palestinians.

Something else for you to read:
"U.S. to Provide Palestinians Additional $50 Million in Aid

State Department fact sheet May 11

"The United States will provide an additional $50 million in assistance to Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza, the State Department announced in a fact sheet May 11.

The additional funds, which will be used towards loans for businesses to create jobs and other economic initiatives, brings the total U.S. assistance to the Palestinians to $125 million for the year 2003.

According to the fact sheet, the United States has given over $700 million in assistance to the Palestinians since 1996."

(http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2003&m=May&x=20030512120752namfuaks0.7209436)

I realize that the aid given to the Palestinians is a mere fraction of the aid Israel receives. But, the Palestinians are still on the road to building their country (if that ever comes to fruition). They lack the established infrastructures of Israel. If the state of Palestine is created without leadership like Hamas, I am confident that the U.S. will continue to offer financial support in increasing amounts.

As an American citizen, you have every right to rant and rave and question your government's decision to stand by a loyal ally. But, don't you dare tell me where MY loyalties should lie. I am a very proud and patriotic American, and I support the U.S. in many more ways than numbers of the people who have posted on this blog.

I am not an Israeli, but I support any government that acts democratically towards its citizens, which is not something you'll easily find in the Middle East.

Posted by: SM | August 5, 2006 01:10 AM

Dear Sm,
Contrary to what you believe I don't spend "hours" on the computer ranting.I don't rant,I am a pretty level individual and consider myself a normal person. In your responses you have actually set yourself up.With all of those stats you have proven that the tiny state of Israel,population 6 or 6.5 million gets an unproporniate amount of help compared to many countries combined.That is unjustifiable.The United States is not the Savior of the world.You keep coming back to 9/11,Saddam and all that crap that the Israeli lobby very savvily uses to shape our foreign policy.We have many allies in the world,truth is Israel is one of them,BUT they benefit a lot more from US than WE do from THEM.From a pure economical point of view,there is no way you can prove me wrong with the numbers you provided yourself.Are you aware that because of our current foreign policies We are despised,hated and feared by over 85% of the world population, and not only muslims, but south americans,europeans,asians etc.Jews only account for maybe 15 million people and I am being very generous with that number.How can you spread "Democracy" and "Freedom" when we choose to deal with some dictators (Pakistan,Saudi Arabia,Jordan,Egypt) and we dare to call them moderates, We also helped arm Saddam before,Trained Bin Laden and his cadre.We have a long dirty list of political assasinations,we have removed or assisted removing DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED Goverments when they don't fit our interests (Dominican Republic,Nicaragua,Panama,Phillipines,Cuba,Haiti,Chile, I could go on...)Are you really that naive to believe that people from others parts of the world believe in us? I will tell you one thing,Just because they take our AID$$$, does not mean that they like us,they just have to deal with us until the next superpower emerges and is not if, is when.The tiny state of Israel is an occupying power,don't forget that.Last but not least let me inform you again that informed arguments are not ranting and raving,I have a brother serving in theather in the Middle east.His life is at stake and it bothers me that some idiots are running our foreign policy in a way that can cause a lot of pain to many families here.This is my country, and our blood and treasure should be spent to defend and preserve our country,not Israel.I also take offense at you saying that I have a cozy life, like I don't know jack about your life and I would not critizice it because it's none of my business I expect the same, you don't know jack about my life so don't call it cozy .I criticized the zealoutness that you express in your views and your one sidedness towards Israel like they can't do nothing wrong,I don't need anger management classes and who are you to tell me I do,just because I presented points that you don't have a valid answer or counter point, I'm full of rage?.You responded that way because you can not justify your position.Humility is strengh not weakness,arrogance is just a paper tiger that doesn't even know it is.I respect your views even thought I don't agree with them, I expect the same from you. Calling people you don't know personally full of rage is a mistake and you should own up to it.May God Bless You.

Posted by: Michael | August 5, 2006 09:56 PM

Petition: Demand an Immediate International Criminal Tribunal for Israel to Stop Global War!

To: The United Nations General Assembly

The brutal bombings and invasion of Lebanon and Gaza are acts of Israeli state terrorism. The U.S. invasion and occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq, and the present U.S.-Israeli threat to Syria and Iran indicate their ruthless struggle for hegemony in the oil-rich Middle East, which would escalate into a global war.

At least 900 people have been killed in Lebanon, more than one-third children, and 3,000 wounded. The number of refugees in Lebanon has already exceeded one million. Whole residential areas, roads, bridges, ports, power stations, factories and other infra-structure have been destroyed by Israeli precision bombing. Lebanon's economic and infrastructure damage tops $2.5B as of 4 August 2006.

In Gaza hundreds have been killed. Homes, greenhouses, bridges, water and sewerage treatment plants and electricity generators have been destroyed in the latest acts of Israeli genocide sadistically code-named 'Operation Summer Rain,' which began on 27 June 2006. Israel continues its brutal air strikes on the Gaza Strip almost daily.

Israel must be prosecuted immediately for its war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Peoples of Lebanon and Palestine to stop the war escalating into a global catastrophe. Frances A. Boyle, Professor of Law, University of Illinois, has asserted the legal framework for The United Nations General Assembly to immediately establish an International Criminal Tribunal for Israel (ICTI).

"The United Nations General Assembly must immediately establish an International Criminal Tribunal for Israel (ICTI) as a 'subsidiary organ' under U.N. Charter Article 22. The ICTI would be organized along the lines of the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia (ICTY), which was established by the Security Council.

"The purpose of the ICTI would be to investigate and prosecute Israeli war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Peoples of Lebanon and Palestine--just as the ICTY did for the victims of international crimes committed by Serbia and the Milosevic Regime throughout the Balkans.

"The establishment of ICTI would provide some small degree of justice to the victims of Israeli war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Peoples of Lebanon and Palestine--just as the ICTY has done in the Balkans. Furthermore, the establishment of ICTI by the U.N. General Assembly would serve as a deterrent effect upon Israeli leaders such as Prime Minister Olmert, Defense Minister Peretz, Chief of Staff Halutz and Israel's other top generals that they will be prosecuted for their further infliction of international crimes upon the Lebanese and the Palestinians.

"Without such a deterrent, Israel might be emboldened to attack Syria with the full support of the Likhudnik Bush Jr. Neoconservatives, who have always viewed Syria as 'low-hanging fruit' ready to be taken out by means of their joint aggression.

"The Israeli press has just reported that the Bush Jr administration is encouraging Israel to attack Syria. If Israel attacks Syria as it did when it invaded Lebanon in 1982, Iran has vowed to come to Syria's defense.

"And of course Israel and the Bush Jr administration very much want a pretext to attack Iran. This scenario could readily degenerate into World War III.

"For the U.N. General Assembly to establish ICTI could stop the further development of this momentum towards a regional if not global catastrophe."

We, the undersigned, demand that The United Nations General Assembly immediately establish an International Criminal Tribunal for Israel (ICTI) as a 'subsidiary organ' under U.N. Charter Article 22 to prosecute the Israeli Prime Minister Olmert, Defense Minister Peretz, Chief of Staff Halutz and Israel's other top generals and war criminals for their infliction of international war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Peoples of Lebanon and Palestine.

Sign the petition at
http://www.petitiononline.com/un040806/petition.html


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