Calderon, his scrubbed visage and hooded eyes nicely suited for squinting through blackened smoke, represents well the Mexico of Nafta, children of the wealthy gorging themselves into obesity at Taco Bell, children of dessimated corn farmers hurling themselves against the toxic invective of Lou Dobbs and the Minutemen.

The only advice I, as an American defrauded by fixed elections in 2000, would give to Mexicans is this:

Do not accept fraudulent rulings by a fixed court that never worked for you in the first place.

All the rest is an attempt to make you live in Fear, and continue the divide between the ultra-rich and the rest of the nation.

Now would we see protests and political instability such as this if Obrador had won? Leftists want to claim they can run a government, when the truth is that they don't even respect the rule of law. Accept defeat, and get over it.

As an American that witnesses the leftists of this country resorting to lies, Stupidity, and violence
to get their views stuffed down the necks of working class Americans. I suggest that they don't worry about the violence and stand firm against the Marxists.

Obrador, Calderon, and the rest of Mexico are symptoms of a failed society. The Mexicans have had more than 50 years to determine their destiny and to fix their economic and political problems. Yet, the Mexicans have utterly failed. Calderon represents the "haves", and Obrador represents the "half nots". Each politician represents roughly half of the failed Mexican society: each half does not give a damn about the other half.

Today, Mexico is awash in problems: an impoverished nation that cannot provide enough jobs to all its citizens, a corrupt judicial system that favors drug lords, politicians whose only political slogan is "I demand that Washington allow us superior Mexicans into inferior American society; the gringos owe us.", etc.

A close election that might result in violence is the very least of Mexico's problems.

By the way, the Czechs had barely 16 years to determine their destiny. The Czechs had lived under 40 years of Soviet oppression. Nonetheless, the quality of life in the Czech Republic is superior to life in Mexico.

What, the hell, is the problem with Mexico?

Obrador and the Mexican people are giving us a lesson in Democracy. I wish the Democratic Party had possessed their courage in the last two bitterly contested and fraudulent American elections.

Keven, Contrasting your unwelcome remarks against the truly substantive ones that preceeded yours fixes your position back to the days when we were in the grips of the Cold War with Russia. Please To Wake Up and smell the Toxic fumes of Now-a-days...

Mexico will remain a third world country unless it decides to prosecute criminals like Obrador. He has caused incalculable economic damage to the hard working people of Mexico City. The law is the law, enforce it.

Scores of people killed at Tlatelolco? Scores? Try hundreds. To write "scores" is either an act of deliberate ignorance, or deliberate deception.

It is not simply that the Mexican government denied responsibility. They actively blamed the demonstrators. And they denied that any more than a handful of people died.

Tlatelolco was Mexico's Tianmen Square. And the world just looked the other way and went on with the Mexico City Olympics. It was not only the Mexican government that hid the truth--it was the international press that hid from the truth.

Now, almost 38 years later, the Washington Post cannot even approximate the truth of what happened at Tlatelolco.

Scores? Shame on you.

When Al Gore lost by 500 votes in 2000, he did not say "To Hell with Institutions!", like López Obrador; he did not strangle ilegally the nation´s capital, like López Obrador; he did not accuse the U.S. Supreme Court of receving "truckloads of money" like López Obrador. The recount of almost 12,000 polling stations--handpicked by Obrador´s lawyers--, clearly showed that aritmetic errors where random and affected (or beneffited) every candidate, without altering the final result.
The election is over, and Obrador´s party, the PRD, has responsabilities in Congress, several states it goberns (inclding the Federal District) and hundreds of counties, all of them dependent on federal money.
The PRD cannot survive as a political institution that recieves generous public funding, while trying to undermine every other political institution with clownish, adolescent behavior that could turn to tragedy. The mexican left should not commit suicide to comply with the tantrums of a deeply authoritarian man who managed to blow a 10 point lead in two months.

Once again Washington's HAND has reached The Presidential Election in MEXICO.!
Just happens to be that El PAN is more pro-US and El PRD is NOT.

Watch the episode of South Park called "Trapper Keeper." Nuff said.

I believe Mexicans have been sold down the river by leaders such as Fox and Calderon. Mexico should get out of NAFTA, kick out foreign owned businesses, and throw up trade barriers. Free trade has been, and will always be, Economic Imperialism. Development for all the people of a country ONLY occurs behind trade barriers so that home grown industries will not be crushed by cheaper goods from developed nations. Every country should look to it's own national interest and the interests of its people.

P. J. Casey . . . . . You are onto something. Sounds like if more and more Country's South of the boarder kick-out the foreigners, things would be alot different.

There is no democracy in any capitalist controlled suedo-democracy, I support whatever the Mexican people and Obrador do. It's about time capitalists realize that we are not going to tolerate their fake, money influenced, money controlled suedo-democracies. To ignor the corrupting power and influence of money in Mexico's election is just being ignorant to what a real democracy is. America is the best example of a fake democracy controlled by money, propaganda/money/propaganda/money/, how long do you think the world capitalists can corruptly control Americas fake democracy, how long do you think capitalists can control Mexico?

How does the Mexican constitution provide for a descent into violence? This strikes me as an odd provision for a constitution, but I'm certainly no expert. Is there a "descent into violence" clause? Is this the clause to which AMLO refers when he exhorts his followers to "re-establish constitutional order"?

We don't need to jump so fast to protectionism and leftist economics.

Australia was a socialist country that
went through more than a decade of double-digit unemployment and failing standards of life when the socialist government decided that they had to accept Australia's place in a global economy, dropped trade barriers steadily over 10-15 years and turned the Australian economy into a "miracle" economy with 15 straight years of growth.

The workers of the country are getting richer, as are the entrepreneurs. Everyone wins.

Do not be afraid by some protesters in Mexico City, Mexico City is not the entire country,Proceso, la Jornada, does not reflect the entire Mexican´s opinion, this country is more complex than simple left and right newspapers.
Nobody in Mexico out of pay protesters want violence. Mexico needs to overcome poverty, unemployment, unfairnees, Obrador is too far to provide solutions to these problems, he is only the old retoric left promise.

Mexico had been under PRI control for 71 years, and thats an awful lot of time to make things wrong. Now after ONLY 6 years of PAN rule, the left is crying foul, screaming that they cannot take it anymore, and i wonder, what the hell are they talking about? its only been 6 years, what did they expect? to erase 71 years of wrong in only 6 years? I agree that Vicente Fox hasnt been an efective president, he could have done a whole lot more, but lets be fair and also accept the fact that Mexico currently enjoys unprecedented economic stability, foreign debt is down, interest rates at an all time low, and housing has seen an impressive boom.

Theres a lot of things that are wrong with our nation, and yes, they need inmediate attention, but what we do not need, is to start a "revolution" so we can go back 20 years in time and end up even more damaged than we already are.

I feel for the millions of poor people, i am glad most of my taxes go to states other than my own that need more help, but sometimes the "street" does not know better, and thats why i am angry at Lopez Obrador, he has fooled these people by making them believe everything is the same, and that they have no hope unless they vote for him, and that is completely false, this nation is improving, maybe some regions havent benefited from the path we are taking, but a lot of regions ARE benefiting, and i am happy to live in one. Thats why its imperative that we the citizens defend our goverment and institutions with force if necessary to stay on track and permit progress to eventually tricke to the poor.

Holy cow. People advocating the elimination of free trade? Countries should only look after their own self-interest? You're telling me you wouldn't be the first to complain if America started using more aggressive tariffs and embargos to look after its own self-interest? You're telling me THAT wouldn't lead to even deeper economic imperialism than we see today?

You say other countries should abandon free trade policies, but would freak if you saw America, England or the Netherlands do what you're advocating - you'd call the immediate barriers to market entry economic oppression, and frankly, so would I.

Remember that NAFTA was signed in by Clinton. Back then, Perot was worried about the costs American workers would suffer by loosening trade regulations with Mexico. Now you're saying the Mexicans are suffering because of NAFTA? Pure free trade means the rich countries sacrifice to find a middle-ground for everyone. If anything, middle-class Americans stand to loose more through free-trade, while the standard of living for others in poorer countries rises. Is it perfect and evenly distributed in those countries? No, but it's a start and offers more opportunity for success than a world of economic isolationists.

You all advocate violent overthrow simply because you can't understand how to function in the present framework, which I can empathize with, but you offer no better solutions or frameworks for functioning at the end of your revolution. All you offer are off-the-cuff remarks about an idea being bad and unfair, without any thought to how a new framework would still have to function in the same global economy and address the same problems. Isolationism is a throw-back, conservative and reactionary impulse, not a liberal economic or social policy. Your road leads to the famines and oppression in North Korea. This is called cutting your nose to spite your face.

Another poster admonishes another to wake up and smell the toxic realities of today. I would go a step further and admonish you all to recognize that living in a democracy doesn't mean everyone gets their way. It means rule by the majority of the people who bother to vote. You would hope that in a Republic, the leaders consider the minority position, but nothing compels them to other than the democratic election. Plunging into a world where either side threatens violent overthrow when a statistically irrelevant margin decides an election is chaos. Imagine if you were on the other side - you'd call the right-wing zealots smashing store windows one night psychopaths. Grin and bear the political term, do a better job convincing others that your way is correct, and get the numbers to turn out more decisively next time. Sure you'll have obstacles, but it's never easy. Murder is easy, but you're a psychopath if that's your replacement for democracy, even considering its shortcomings. That condemns the Mexican government's massacre as well!

Lopez Obrador has lost any real political future. In a way so did Al Gore did so too? Al Gore was a good example, Obrador is frightning right now.

frag em

Wow. Lots of leftists on this board, but let's look at the facts of this case...An election between multiple candidates (from multiple parties) that has been certified by both international observors (the EU) and the country's highest constitutional court as being valid; without any real demonstration of fraud to undermine an election. Yet, one of the losers refuses to acknowledge defeat and decides to form his own government? Yikes and good luck to the Mexican people.

The writer has shown his ignorance of Mexico's history by saying the government "denied all responsibility" after the Tlatelolco massacre. President Diaz Ordaz personally and publicly assumed the whole responsibility, though we now know he was not to blame. Second, there were not "hundreds" of deaths. Luis Gonzalez de Alba, leader of the movement, expert in it, and who actually was there that day, calculates something around 50.

As to Lopez Obrador, he is a scoundrel who ran the worst government Mexico City has ever had. Believe me, I live here two blocks away from the (by the way, almost empty) demonstration. He is unfit to run a block of houses, not to mention a 100+ million people country.

Oh, and he lost.

I spent 3 weeks in Mexico this summer, mostly in Oaxaca, but also a few days in Mexico City. The national and state crises in the federal district of Mexico and Oaxaca, respectively, were going on the whole time I was there. These are my impressions and questions of what's going on.

Mexico has a long history of tyranny, dictatorship, one-party rule, corruption, and fraud. It does not have a long history with smooth running democracy or transitions from party to party or election to election. Largely because of it's history, I guess, Mexicans seem very cynical and distrusting of the political process and elections. Both side allege fraud in this presidential election. In Oaxaca, the striking teachers allege fraud in the last election for governor of Oaxaca. I cannot say how honest, fair, or fraudulent the last gubernatorial or presidential elections were, but there is strong mistrust of the results in both cases. The motives and veracity of Obrador are also questioned by many Mexicans. My impression was that he is a demagogue who is tantruming because he did not get his way (to win the presidency). But if the election was fraudulent, I may be misreading that.

The impression I had was that the executive branch is too powerful in Mexico and there is vacuum in the courts, legislatures, and private sector. The people stand off directly against the executive with no helpful intermediaries to facilitate a dialogue. The charges and expectations seem so extreme as to preclude dialogue or compromise. In Oaxaca the teachers were calling for the ouster of the governor for his treatment of the strikers earlier in the summer (and corruption). Obrador is claiming he is president and threatening to set up a parallel government. The protesting groups have staked out significant presences in the city squares of Oaxaca and Mexico, which at times very much disrupt day to day business.

The bright side of all this seems to be that freedom of speech and political organization is alive and well in Mexico. With few exceptions, these political activities have been tolerated and accepted by the ruling state and local governments. I certainly felt a much stronger sense that people cared and were passionate about politics in Mexico than I do in the United States. What seemed to be a pity was that the process was so weak or distrusted that divergent views could not work out solutions, that the dispute could not be worked out within the political system, such as through state and federal legislatures. At the executive level, could Calderon not find a role for Obrador and work in some of his priorities. Would Obrador accept such an offer?

In summary, Mexico seems to have the heart and stomach for a healthy democratic system but little practice or faith in such a system to represent its people, serve their interests, and reach compromises in an orderly, lawful manner that does not bring the state to a halt.

Whatever happens in Mexico, let's stay as far away as possible. It's annoying to be constantly blamed for their problems as in the famous, "Poor Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States." Canada shares a much longer border with the US, and a much higher proportion of their population lives close to the US border, and they are part of NAFTA, and yet Canada is prosperous, democratic, stable, happy, and they provide universal health care of pretty good quality.

If you think that Canada is doing well because they're white and receive preferential treatment by the US, look at Japan; not long ago, we hated the Japs, even locked Japanese-Americans in internment camps. Still, they went from complete devastation in 1945 to their current position as the second largest economy in the world. Given that they possess very few natural resources, it is pretty obvious that their prosperity depended largely on trade, and up until the last few years, the US has been their biggest trading partner. In fact, the Japanese are killing US auto manufacturers through fair competition. If anyone could have blamed the US for their problems it was Japan (ignoring imperial Japanese atrocities before we nuked them), but instead, they are enjoying a happy, peaceful, very safe, prosperous country with decent universal health care.

Whatever Mexico's problems may be, obviously they are not proximity to the US, trade with the US, or capitalism, per se, since both Canada and Japan are capitalist countries. If the far left of Mexico, or of other faltering Latin American countries wants to adopt a model of government, why not choose the Canadas of the world instead of the Cubas? Or the Czech Republic, as pointed out by Atheist,Boston,USA's post?

By the way, can anyone name a country with no international trade that people would actually like to live in?

Just to clarify, I used the slur, "Japs," just as a reminder of the racial hostility toward ethnic Japanese that used to be common in the US. Sorry if it's offensive to anyone, my intention was quite the opposite.

The problem I see in most South and Central American nations is that they never really recovered from colonialism.

After they were finally able to cast off the European masters, they almost immediately fell into the hands of local dictators, who were later eclipsed by an imperialist America fresh off its major victory in WWII and flexing its muscles as a global powerhouse. They've never really had a shot at being their own masters in a free society, because it was never convenient to the world powers at any point along the way to appropriately empower the people. The idea of charismatic demogogues as ideal leaders has become generationally entrenched, and its going to take some doing to get them out of that mindset.

For all you Marxist bastards, I hate to break it to you, but your kind had their shot at the world stage, and it turns out the Proletariat has no clothes, either. So get off the Capitalists' backs, you failed at life.

Hey!!!! I can't vote as I am a rentista....retired ex-pat. If you have thousands of leftists blocking the main thrufare for 2 months...they just ain't going away without a punch up......Now BIG trouble...the Federales (army) will dispurse...they will use extreme force....not a water cannon.......I firmly believe Mr Obrador is very dangerous......watch were he ducks to when the S-----T hits the fan.....It will happen, I will take odds of 100 to 1...ZZzzzzzzz.

The first short posts by the leftists
reveal they have no valid arguments or
serious alternatives to the current state
of affairs in Mexico.

I was encouraged to read the thoughtful,
longer posts that followed.

As a Canadian who spends the winter in Mexico
and enjoys Mexican people and their Culture...I hope that the Mexican people can see a peaceful way through this current standoff.

Viva Mexico

This "crisis" as the right leaning media are portraying Obrador's and PRDs civil disobedience is actually a shatterpoint in Mexico's developing democracy. The new President has his party with plural majority in both houses. Calderon and the PAN cannot afford to simply ignore 1 million + protesters. They need to bipass Obrador and seek common ground with the elected congressional officials of the PRD and seek some sweeping social mesaures that provide the poorest class some relief. Let the PRD take credit for it and place Calderon in middle as the great pacifist negotiator. This is smart politics and at the heart of democratic republics. Let's see if Calderon and his party can take the next step as a mature sophisticated political party and show themselves capable of governing the country without corrupt or violent tactics.

I think evryone is missing the point here, fox has done a marvelous job in mexico. the real cause of poverty in mexico is the 70 years of unbridled coruption of the p.r.i.now lopez obrador wants to destroy evrything fox has done. The mexican people should not let him he is just another crooked politician like the ones we have here in belize.

I think Fox is a perfectly nice individual who was a relatively weak President considering his landslide victory 6 years ago. He and the PAN had to contend with a militant PRI party who had plural/absolute majorities in both houses of congress. Fox simply did not have the political skill to negotiate policies for approval through such a the legislature. I think as important as this confrontation/challenge from the left during this election season, the resounding defeat of all PRI presidential and congressional candidates destroyed the arrogent leaders of that patronizing party.

Again, I repeat, politics is war by other means. Let the negotiating/wheeling-dealing begin. Eventually, Calderon and the PAN led legislature will offer up SOMETHING that will turn the heads of the disenfranchised. The PAN/President simply have to acknowledge this large population and offer up relatively immediate solutions to their issues.

Contrary to what some have commented, capitalist economic ideas are not unilaterally opposed to assisting the poorest class. It happens in the U.S.A. every year from welfare reforms, healthcare to farm subsidies. Mind you the solutions are not absolute in my country but they are practically nonexistent in Mexico today. This is where the executive and legislative branches can show their maturity in dealing with what is basic to all democratic countries. The right to gather, express free speech, even pacifically protest injustice. Obrandor understands this and is utilizing it to one way or another move the institutions into proactively "showing their quality" to paraphrase my English literature professor.

Here is a Typical PRD Follower in USA:

Hi guys! I am a Mexican living in the USA. I fully support Lopez Obrador, he is a great leader and he will establish a real democracy. Obrador gathers the people at the zocalo everyday and he asks them: Do you agree with me? and they say: Yes!Yes!. This is real democracy, is the direct will of the people! the real people in the streets. Lopez Obrador has a special gift to communicate with the people, he senses what they want and he always guesses correctly what they want him to do. He is like Fidel Castro and like Hugo Chavez. We don't need tricky elections in our country. One man is enough if he is the right one.

I am so angry with Calderon, he is a false president. He was supported by the USA, I hate this stupid country, I wish Osama attacks them again. I really enjoyed very much when Osama killed all those americans in New York. Lopez Obrador will destroy the government of Mexico and will establish a real direct democracy, communist and based in the principles of Carl Marx. Only the socialist system works! Socialism will prevail with Lopez Obrador and PRD!

I came to this country some years ago and I really laugh at how stupid the people here are, they don't know I am socialist and the stupid helped me very much when I crossed the border and I was hungry and poor. But now I have a nice house and a ford lobo, brand new! And my family is ok too. Sometimes i travel to DF to show off to my friends there.

Lopez Obrador is the real leader and everybody in USA must support him if the believe in democracy, real democracy. He is not like that chicken of Al Gore, no Sir! He was not silenced with the millions of dirty USA Corporations. I hate this stupid country so much.

Cuba and Venezuela and Iran are real democracies and Lopez Obrador will liberate the Mexican people and will establish a real democracy! Viva Lopez Obrador! Viva Stalin! Viva Fidel Castro! Viva Hugo Chavez! Death to George Bush! Death to USA! Death to Calderon!

What do you think?

I remember when I was studying in Mexico, I wrote an essay for my roots of mexican politics class entitled "Ernesto Zedillo, Ratero, Titere". The teacher returned the paper with the words Articulo 33 circled in red, and explained that it was a very nice effort but that Article 33 of the Mexican constitution forbids foreigners from communicating anything negative about the government. She told me to take it home, burn it--and never do it again. That was a powerful lesson for me.

kt,

If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Your "jap" remark stays for all to read in amazement.

Just what is it that annoys you.

The "Poor Mexico" quote is by Porfirio Diaz, conmiscerating the Mexican people, not blaming Americans.

You say to stay away from Mexico's comings and goings and yet, here you are, opinionating about MEXICO.

If you had any worldly sophistication you would understand implicitly that Mexico and Mexicans are not a thing or an abstraction nor an "issue". You wish you had our millenary heritage, amazing indigenous arts, architecture, centuries old culinary traditions,etc. from centuries before the European settlers arrived. After the conquest Mexico became even wealthier, culturally and in all other aspects of two cosmos embracing.

Mexico is not about "national resources" "trade" or "killing" U.S. car makers.

If you had any idea of your article's blatant cultural bias and near racist implying of Mexicans as backward, lazy, unsavvy world trade ignorants, you'd wished you never posted the embarrassment of your opinion.

Here it is for all to see. I won't get any way near your kind of American pontificating.

rodolfo: You have to understand that many of these people have the slightest idea of what Mexico is. If you tell them Mexico is the 11 largest economy in the world they will not believe it, because they have built themselves an image of Mexico being a poor farming country. They actually think they learn about Mexico when they see movies like "El Mariachi".

I enjoyed this. We're trying to keep track of all the media attention the Mexico politicos are getting.

http://mexicanosyamericanos.blogspot.com

Adam, could you register at

http://arielorellana.net/forums/

and check us out. We would appreciate your contribution.

Rodolfo,

My use of "Jap" is as explained in the second post, which I added expressly because I suspected that not everyone who reads these comments would understand the use of irony. I guess I was right. If you misunderstood this because English is not your first language, then you certainly get a pass. Maybe I was too subtle, but the comments that Gene Weingarten got on his humor piece "Yo, Tony! I'm Talkin' About You!" suggests that being less subtle might not have helped. :-) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/22/AR2006082200007.html If you saw me, you would be embarassed at having accused me of racism towards the Japanese. To spell it out, I used "Jap" to emphasize that Japan has done amazingly well since their utter devastation during WWII in spite of the racial animosity of many Americans as expressed in the derogatory term, "Jap."

I don't understand why you are upset by the rest of my remarks. They are directed at the left, and are much kinder than your comments toward the left on Ceci Connolly's blog, where your comments are often pretty rabid. Maybe you're not the same rodolfo. If so, sorry.

Anyway, I think you are confused. This is a US newspaper. Your statement, "If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen," should be directed at yourself. We're going to continue to pontificate obnoxiously about our country and every other country in the world because we enjoy thinking about these things. This is what people do all over the world. As I wrote earlier, "It's annoying to be constantly blamed for [Mexico's] problems." If people in other countries can criticize Americans, surely Americans can sit in front of their computers and criticize others as well. If you want to read comments about Mexico only from Mexican nationals, don't read comments in US newspapers.

You wrote, "You say to stay away from Mexico's comings and goings and yet, here you are, opinionating about MEXICO." Actually, I wrote, "Whatever happens in Mexico, let's stay as far away as possible." In context, I think it should be clear that I was talking about intervention. Don't you think that there is a big difference between discussion and invasion?

You wrote, "The "Poor Mexico" quote is by Porfirio Diaz, conmiscerating the Mexican people, not blaming Americans." If Porfirio Diaz did not intend to blame the US, but only to commiserate with the Mexican people, than why did he write, "y tan cerca los Estados Unidos," at all? When people repeat this saying today, do they really not mean to cast some blame at the US?

You wrote, "Mexico is not about "national resources" "trade" or "killing" U.S. car makers." What does this mean? Mexico is somehow above economics? Obviously, this is not the case. Is there more to life than economics? Of course. But saying that doesn't pay for groceries.

You wrote, "You wish you had our millenary heritage, amazing indigenous arts, architecture, centuries old culinary traditions,etc. from centuries before the European settlers arrived." This is just chauvinism. The US, from Alaska to Hawaii, and indeed the entire world, is home to indigenous traditions no less valid than that of Mexico. The US is also host to people from every part of the world, each of whom brings with them their own traditions and history. Don't you think that people from Asia, Africa, Europe, Australia, and the Americas outside of Mexico have rich cultural traditions? As to "millenary heritage," I'm not sure what you mean, since the use of "millenary" here is kind of unconventional. If you mean thousand year heritage, well, all of our heritages go back a long way. If you mean military history, well, I actually don't envy it, not many people do outside Mexico. If you mean millinery history, well, I'm sure that the rest of the world is just as capable of producing fine women's hats as you!

You wrote, "If you had any idea of your article's blatant cultural bias and near racist implying of Mexicans as backward, lazy, unsavvy world trade ignorants, you'd wished you never posted the embarrassment of your opinion." My comments may be embarrassing, but not for the reasons you cite. All over the world, from every color and creed, are nations doing better than Mexico. Moreover, Mexicans immigrate to the US and do extremely well, and they have a well-earned reputation here for being hard working. Obviously, Mexico's political and economic problems are not due to the race or culture of its people. You are seeing racism where it does not exist. In fact, I think the odds are pretty good that my ethnic group suffers more discrimination in the US than your ethnic group suffers in Mexico.

You wrote, "Just what is it that annoys you." Your post consists entirely of personal attacks based on your misunderstanding of my comments. Nowhere do you address any of the points I raised. Therefore, your post is a perfect illustration of what annoys me.

Finally, you wrote, "I won't get any way near your kind of American pontificating." Hey, you're reading the Washington Post. This is the pope of American newpapers!

I don't think kt is degrading Mexico at all. I'll tell you though - most Americans see what's going on in Mexico right now and harbor a lot of concern that it could be the future of American politics, what with all the heat going on between right and left lately. Everyone's mentioned Gore, and the it's impossible to avoid the comparison. Everyone's 'outraged' about every issue. What Obrador's done is over the line, and nobody wants that to happen in America. Demogoguery (sic?) is a dangerous thing. That's why people talk about there being a lesson for America to keep in mind down in Mexico.

empty boxes,

Mexico is #13 by GDP, but #64 by GDP/capita at Purchasing Power Parity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

The common perception of Mexico is not that it is too small, but that there is too much poverty. Obrador and his many supporters would seem to agree.

It just amazes me to see these apologists for Mexico's corrupt elite contorting themselves with such far-fetched arguments against what makes such basic sense: that in a razor-close election taking place in a country with a long and recent history of pervasive electoral fraud, it only makes sense to re-count every vote in a transparent process if all of society is to have faith in the "results."
That Calderon and the right fought tooth and nail precisely to avoid any such vote-by-vote recount tells us all we need to know about how confident they themselves are in the legitimacy of this court-imposed "victory."
Before spouting indignantly about the rule of law, why don't these Calderon apologists consider how useful it would be if Mexican law had a modicum of legitimacy.
No, once again, Mexico has proved itself a society where everything is stacked against the underclass and in favor of the old corrupt elite.
This "victory" is a sham.
Until every vote has been re-counted in a transparent system, I and millions of others will consider Calderon a fraud and an imposter.
Mexico is today without a government.

Can anybody tell me the date President-elect Calderon will be sworn in????

How about a run-off between Obrador and Calderon? That it is not provided for legally is a good argument. But what if Calderon, said something like, "Officially, I won the election. But it was very close. The difference between Obrador and I was tiny and probably statistically insignificant. There were some election irregularities, and while I don't believe that they affected the election enough to change the outcome, I want a unified Mexico. Therefore, let's have a nationwide referendum. It will basically be a run-off election between Obrador and myself, but we will call it a referendum because a run-off election would be extra-legal. If I lose the run-off, for the sake of national unity, I will resign after making the necessary legal changes to allow Obrador to take over." Any objections?

I do not understand why they do not put Lopez Obrador in a straight jacket and commit him to an insane assylum. It doesn't take Ph.D. in psychiatry to see that the man is totally out of his mind.

In support of Larry Saltzman's post, I see the day coming when, even in our theoretically "democratic" countries, people will refuse to put up, repeatedly and for years on end, with liars and crooks in power, following rigged elections, "stolen" referendums, constitutional manoeuvres to remain in power for life, "regime changes", "national reconstructions" and other niceties.

"The government itself, which is only the mode which the people have chosen to execute their will, is equally liable to be abused and perverted before the people can act through it... I think that we should be men first, and subjects afterward. It is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law so much as for the right...

How does it become a man to behave toward this American government to-day? I answer, that he cannot without disgrace be associated with it. I cannot for an instant recognize that political organization as my government...

Action from principle, the perception and the performance of right, changes things and relations... if it (the government) is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law. Let your life be a counter friction to stop the machine. What I have to do is to see, at any rate, that I do not lend myself to the wrong which I condemn...

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also a prison... If the alternative is to keep all just men in prison, or give up war and slavery, the State will not hesitate which to choose... Is there not a sort of blood shed when the conscience is wounded? Through this wound a man's real manhood and immortality flow out, and he bleeds to an everlasting death. I see this blood flowing now." (Thoreau, "Civil Desobedience")

Was Henry David Thoreau (1818-1862) American, by any chance?

I have to laugh at the poor demented fools who decry the American people's rejection of the Democrat Party as being the result of "fradulent" elections. It merely confirms how detached these people are from reality. LOL!

Nice quote, Mr. Rose. He was quite a writer. Though his rhetoric is fiery, he exercised moderation in his actions. He spent only one night in jail, after all, for not paying his taxes to protest slavery and the Mexican-American War (rightly so, even Robert E. Lee thought it unjust). His aunt paid his back taxes over his objections, and he was released. He continued to write wonderfully, support noble causes, and live a life that we still admire today. He did not take up arms against his government. He managed to be a great force for good by persuation without killing, stealing from, or oppressing anyone. Thanks for reminding us of his example, Mr. Rose. He can also be embraced by the political right, for also in his essay, "On the Duty of Civil Disobedience," he writes, "That government is best which governs least." And just for fun, since Mr. Rose is from Canada, "I fear that I have not got much to say about Canada, not having seen much; what I got by going to Canada was a cold." --Thoreau from "A Yankee in Canada"

kt,

You should sit back, relax, take a deep breath, keep relaxing, close your eyes and keep relaxing.

Anyone that has to explain every sentence written in an opinion with the thoroughness of a barrister before Her Majesty's Court and go on and on and on until the whole audience falls asleep for lack of amusement, has a little problem.

You might think that you meant what you say you meant. Down here we read your comment as an undisguised put down on Mexicans. It's not just the word jap, which in itself is just a word, its the tactlessness of using it in the first place. You go on in your reply with your condescension towards a foreign person not understanding your drift. I understand your patronising. I must be a slow, uncultured philistine with no worldly exposure that has to be given a comeuppance.

You can explain endlessly about what you meant to say. You said what you said, if we need an instruction manual for your postings, serve your explanation first and then give us a piece of your mind unabridged and clear as water as your sep. 6 3:45 PM post.

It is repugnant to Mexicans and Latin- americans as a whole that color or ethnic ascendancy has to be mentioned at all, for any reason.

Just exactly what does color or ethnicity have to do with left or right leaning political persuasion?

If my posts on Ceci's blog are disagreeable to you, sorry, I'm having fun and keeping a lively rant going among like minded election madness junkies such as me and if we're lucky, also you.

Rodolfo,

I did not line-by-line explain what I wrote. I destroyed, line-by-line, what you wrote. Instead of seriously addressing even one point I raised, you are again willfully misinterpreting what I wrote, feigning offense, and hurling insult.

In post after post from you and like-minded individuals, your attitude toward the problems faced by those struggling in Mexico has been dismissive at best and often insulting. But this whole process has been very useful for me. I must thank you for waking me up. You have actually changed my attitude toward the current situation completely. It all boils down to trust, doesn't it? I had thought that Mexico's right was well-intentioned, and seeking the good of all Mexicans through a "rising tide floats all boats" approach to the economy. You have convinced me that the left is probably correct in believing that the right cannot be trusted.

You wrote, "You should sit back, relax, take a deep breath, keep relaxing, close your eyes and keep relaxing." Don't you get it? This is what people in your camp have been saying for generations to all those who struggle all day every day in Mexico and have nothing, while they see the rest of you getting fat and shopping in San Diego while you dismiss their struggles and look down on them as uneducated fools led by a madman. They are forced to come up here and work at the bottom of our economy, some are my relatives. After coming here, and getting away from you, they do very well, because the problem is not with Mexicans, the problem is with its political/economic elite. Do the rich suffer for their mismanagement and corruption? No, they just count their money and tell the poor to be patient. Obrador may not be the answer, but the left is correct in identifying you, on the right, as the problem.

Your comments on race are typical of the dominant class. The rest of us who are not of this class, seethe and wonder how long your willful ignorance will persist. Obrador may be leading the revolution, but he did not create it. You did.

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kt,

I am neither from the right or the left but all the contrary.

I will not put up with prissy nincompoops wherevah.

Your Sep.7 11:00 PM post delights me. I see passion. I see clarity. I see a vibrant person saying it like it is.

It is fun to read and shows a person that will not back down and at the same time make me want more, a lot more, of the same fire.

Next time I come back to this page I know I have a comrade in arms.

rodolfo,

Misrepresentation, evasion, and smear are tactics that quickly destroy the kind of trust necessary for people to accomplish anything difficult. Whether for the PAN or you, this is a quick way to lose credibility. Now the PAN makes conciliatory noises... This is the frightened man saying to the growling dog, "Nice dog, nice dog." Why should the dog believe him? His past actions lead us to believe that as soon as he gets that dog back on a leash, he'll go back to ignoring it, or beating it if it barks for food.

kt,

Exactly what or who is this dog you mention. I don't understand your simile.

kt,

To be creative, relax and let your mind go to work, otherwise the result is either a copy of something you did before or reads like an army manual.

- Kenneth H. Gordon, Jr.

Calderon, the phony "president" who seized office by insisting that all votes NOT be counted.
What a farce!

Calderon's motto: 'Please do not count all the votes. That would be dangerous.'