Yet another sign of the spread of Muslim intolerance in the West. Finally, though, the West may be waking up from its self-induced stupor of multiculturalism. The multi-cultis' great idea was that if you tear down Western civilization (to them, the root of all evil), and demand the growth of unassimilated, non-Western cultures in the West, that somehow everyone would embrace liberal values and become oh-so tolerant and open and peaceful.

It should come as no surprise that this experiment contained the same fatal flaw that afflicts most social-organization schemes dreamt up by ivory-tower types--the total disregard of human nature. If you do not insist that immigrants achieve some basic level of assimilation, the obvious outcome will be nations within nations--balkanization. They will not embrace your values, they'll keep theirs. And what if their values are diametrically opposed to yours? So the perverse outcome of multiculturalism is tolerance of intolerance. Madness.

Yes, now try to get any criticism of Israel or anything Israeli on front pages of anything Murdoch...
How about the Times story that top Israeli military brass has traditionaloy used female soldiers at will...(okay, bcause they don't want to be seen as "soft and bookish..." (I mean, it's in defense of their nation. as usual..).and Israel's president is accused of rape by several women but won't resign.
Murdoch missed that? And so did Fox. And nothing from Morley, there.

Gee, I never knew humans were like cats - unable to control their animal desires!

Oh! Maybe he meant MUSLIM men are unable to control themselves! That must be it! Muslim men have no ability to control themselves any more than does a hungry cat!

I guess I'd better warn my relatives they can't be trusted to control themselves... Perhaps we should poke out their eyes!?!

Why aren't Muslim men around the world getting pissed about being labeled as animalistic and incompetent in the mosque every day?

This is a very, very positive sign. The Muslim community has stepped up and dealt with one of their own, rather than making excuses. Makes it much easier to take claims that Islam respects women with a straight face.

This is getting ridiculous! We have our own nutcases who want to shoot Chavez and tell school boards that they will go to hell for not teaching intelligent design as a scientific fact. Religious leaders in any religion can make very weird statements. Are we going to run Pat Robertson out of the Country? I don't think that will happen. Muslims are allowed to be strange too, without being run out of the country. Many conservative Christians are not comfortable with exposed flesh.
Remember how Nuns use to dress with their winged white hats. We have the Amish dressing habits, and some Jewish men with braids, a big hat, and long coats. When I was a kid, a woman would not go downtown or to church without a hat or gloves. Sometimes these hats had a veil to add a little mystery. Look at the kids in school trying to define themselves with particular fashions.
Over time some Muslims, while retaining their basic faith, will dress in the Western fashion even in the Mosque. Catholic women use to cover their head on entering church, and, perhaps Muslim women will do similar things.
How people dress is unimportant. It is what is in their hearts that counts. These are false wedge issues designed to drive people apart. We need to work with people and create an inclusive atmosphere that solves problems, instead of creating them. People are different, and there is nothing wrong with being different.

On the one hand I believe people should be free to dress as they please. On the other, when I see someone living in the US and wearing the veil it makes me feel that here is someone who apparently wanted to live here instead of wherever they came from, to take advantage of the good things about the West, yet on the other hand with their dress they are announcing that they do not agree with the values that define us. It seems to me that someone who prefers to wear the veil would be more comfortable in a society in which that is the norm. In a sense it is a symbol that they are here to undermine and take over our culture. Religions always seem to want to control every aspect of existence. American freedom, including religious freedom, is the result of a limitation of the power of specific religions. In this sense it is totally incorrect to see the West as defined by Christianity, however informed it may be by Christian values. Rather, the modern West is characterized by secularism, science, democracy, and so on, values against which most religions have fought tooth and claw since the Renaissance.

I agree with the cleric's comments but for different reasons.
If you look at any American/Western women, she does treat herself as a piece of "Object" who should be chased by a man.

Women, here, have failed to take advantage of the open society.

"Religious leaders in any religion can make very weird statements. Are we going to run Pat Robertson out of the Country? I don't think that will happen."

We don't celebrate Robertson, and we certainly don't declare that anyone who challenges Robertson is "attacking Christianity."

Of course the Muslim community will have it's nutcases - every society does. But nutcases have become the most visible face of Islam, and have become a very real threat to the rest of the world. Until the Islamic community starts policing its own, the entire WORLD has a problem with Islamic nuts.

My family and I lived in Sweden for a time back in the 1990's. Of the many things I will never forget, two stand out in my mind. One is the dirty looks and muttered threats of Muslim immgants directed toward Swedish couples who walked down the street simply holding hands. The other was my wife and daughter being followed by mobs of Arab men, making suggestive remarks. Arab culture is very very diferent from Western culture. Women, to them, are simply animals, possessions meant to satisfy their sexual urge whenever and however the want. In the West, our tolerance of that attitude and of their culture is flat out insane. If they cannot or will not assimilate, expell them.

PJ is absolutely right, we do need to work with each other to foster a harmonious society. However, the reason Pat Robertson isn't run out of town, and neither was this Cleric by the way, is because his followers or people who share his views aren't murdering thousands of innocent citizens, often in their own countries. Fundamentalist Christians stopped trying to actively wipe out entire populations of people centuries ago while fundamentalist Muslims are trying to do it today. What is disturbing and I think very telling of the struggle yet to come was the Imam's defense of his comments. He defended them by saying that they were intended for an audience of Muslim men in the confines of his mosque. This is a problem because he, as well as other Muslim fundamentalists, have essentially said that their intolerant and hateful views are okay because they are expressed within a religious setting. In other words, what is said by men of God is beyond critique and therefore not withtin the realm of human moral or political judgement. What he said was right because of where and how he said it, not because of the structure and content of his arguments. This fundamental discord is a major stumbling block for reconciliation and coexistence between the western and the Islamic worlds. Our religious leaders are not only critiqueable, but accountable for what they say while theirs are not. They become angry when we ask them to modify their behaviors or practices when they come into our societies. How are we supposed to coexist peacefully when fundamentalist Muslims are unwilling to accept basic tenets of modernity? What exactly exmpts their religious leaders from accountability and judgement? How are we supposed to exist as one when fundamentalist Muslims want different rules for them. This cleric sadi ti very well when he said that his comments were not meant for the general public and certainly not the women of Australia in general. Then who exactly were they meant for? This is exactly my point, Muslim fundamentalists want their own special set of rules and norms and they want to dictate what those exceptions are going to be. They feel that they are exempt from societal standards and that they get to decide for themselves what they will do no matter where they live. In the face of this type of rigidity and exceptionalism, how are we supposed to not only coexist but evolve as the human race?

Trust always in Reason

Archimedes

Free speech has its limits.This Mufti's remarks were not only insulting but also "veiled" fundamentalism. And -- what's worse some luke warm excuse for criminals. Moreover,uncontrolled desire for sex is not the underlying reason for rape;it's the rapist's having total control over the terrified ,helpless victim. The Aussies ought to chuck that ignorant cleric out.

I'm glad to see that you are reporting that Muslims themselves have distanced themselves from Hilali. Muslim women were among the first who protested his vulgar remarks. Read more at

http://arabwomanprogressivevoice.blogspot.com/2006/10/australian-imam-controversy.html

Mike said:
"Arab culture is very very diferent from Western culture. Women, to them, are simply animals, possessions meant to satisfy their sexual urge whenever and however the want."

I respond:

That's just straight up bigotry and ignorance. It is inexcusable ignorance that were Mike a political figure, he should be forced to step down in disgrace and shame.
Can people see why that's bigotry and ignorance unworthy of tolerance?
The same reason the sheikh stepped down in disgrace.
The difference is mike's type of bigotry is tolerated, even championed among ritewing the bigot crowd that swell the ranks in most Anglo nations: Australia, America, Britain. In Britain, there have been several reports of Muslim women assaulted and their clothes torn off by Anglo men and the political leadership of Jack Straw instigated it. In America, there have been 24 attacks, arsons, bombings, or posted threats against mosques in America in 2006 alone. In Australia, the riots of 2006 led to violence between the Muslim and Anglo Aussie community which lasted for days and climaxed with 1000s of Anglo Aussie Christian men attacking anyone with olive to brown skin regardless.

Nearly every day in America, ritewing pundits use derogatory slang against Muslims, encourage violence and hatred on the radio and cable TV. A nationally syndicated radio slag, Michael Savage, called for all out massacre of 100 million Muslims by just bombing cities.

PJ Casey is right, good people must come together to denounce bigotry and hatred regardless of race, religion, nationality.

Its not just from the Muslim side. The sheikh put his foot in his mouth and left in shame.
Upright conservatives must distance themselves from and confront the ritewing extremists who instigate growing violence and terrorism against innocent Muslim people as well.

Archimedes, I don't know where you are, but here in Florida, Christian preachers and televangelists get on their radio and TV shows and broadcast raw, open hatred against Muslims, Muhammad, Islam. They call us devils and full of evil. There is no end to the hatred and they preach it with the TV sheen of smiles, slick hair, 3 piece suits, and sprinkles of praises for Jesus. They follow that up with calls for donations. All of this hatred is commonplace among the far rite Christian community. They are not hiding it. It is supported by black and white preachers who themselves are enriched by their flocks.

The point is, you do not see the bigger picture. The Muslim minority in Australia may have some work to do, but in reality, so does the ritewing crowd. With an American president, hte leader of the free world and the Anglo diaspora, who uses the threat of terrorism to whip up fears and political partisanship, who uses vague slurs against Muslim people, ignores his responsibility for killing 100s of 1000s of Muslim people- not even showing remorse over the death of Muslim children- there should be no surprise that ritewing Anglo men are increasingly percieving they are entitled to being violent, hateful, and threatening towards all Muslim people.

The Sheik hasn't stepped down. He is applauded by the congregation of his mosque. His comments respond directly to a recent gang-rape case in Sydney. He has called the holocaust a hoax, and he has responded to calls he quit by saying that the world should be cleansed of the white house before he steps down. His followers gave that statement a ringing Allah Akbar. The question is how widely his views represent his followers in Australia. Sadly, this sermon took place weeks ago and no one challenged it until the translation hit the mainstream Australian media. Both the Prime Minister and the leader of the opposition have rightly called for his ouster as the self-appointed Mufti of Australia. This still has to play out, as the Sheik seems determined to play sick, go on leave, and generally lay low until he can re-emerge as he has in the past when he has been caught out.

Would the reverse, an offensive slip of the toungue, by a non-muslim raise violent riots in the Muslim world? Most Americans are not deceived by naive newspeak terms of political correctness, diversity and tolerance. And you can be forgiven a slip of the tongue (unless you are a politician!) We will judge you by your actions. Will Muslims integrate into western society, or only after all the infidels are dead? Demonstrate peace, integrate into the societies you move to, and the statement-religion of peace- will have merit. Moving into Western culture and expecting it to accommodate YOU, is not how it works. Particularly in America. You dont move here for diversity, or to sell your prior nations views. You come to America to become an American. Proud of American history, citizenship, and ready to fight for freedom and the Constitution. Not a hyphenated American either.

The Mufti's comments incensed most Aussie women. Pru Goward, Sex Discrimination Commissioner, summed it up fairly well with her comments, "It is incitement to a crime. Young Muslim men who now rape women can cite this in court, can quote this man ... their leader in court," she told the Nine Network.

I'd be curious to hear the Sheik's view on homosexual rape? Are the men who are attacked and raped uncovered meat as well?

Kath - Sydney, AU

Usama whines that in America there have been over 24 attacks on terrorist training centers (excuse me, mosques) in 2006. There were over 24 attacks on Catholic churches in ONE DAY in Islamo-fascist countries after the pope mentioned in passing that Islamo-fascism is a violent religion. Muslims are not regularly beheaded or forcibly converted in America. When they are, Usama can whine. Until then, quit complaining.

I don't understand why western leaders are not issuing clear, definitive and final statements that they will never accept religious governance of any kind, that people who move to and live in their countries have no choice but to accept permanent secular governance, that they must leave the countries if they ever want to live under religious governance, and that this issue is not open to debate.

This must be said by all, and repeated often. But we don't hear it, ever, even though it is true. There is a dearth of leadership in the western world today.

I was in Australia last week when the controversy started. What is significant about the response is that the Australian Muslim community led the condemnation of his remarks and called for his resignation. Australian women who wear the head scarf were interviewed and found his remarks equally objectionable, stating that the head scarf is not and should not be considered protection from rape. It is a religious expression. Before we read "worldwide jihad" into this incident and assume Muslim communities are monolithic in their viewpoint, we should reflect on what actually happened in Australia. I was very heartened by the response of the Australian Muslim community and also the non-Muslim community, who expressed their outrage at the Imam and not at other Muslims.

The idea that rape of women who dress seductively is justified is of course abhorrent. On the other hand, dressing seductively in public has the effect of sexually stimulating people whose amorous attention you do not seek. It seems to me that is not considerate of them or yourself, despite the fact that most people so stimulated don't commit rape.

'I agree with the cleric's comments but for different reasons.
If you look at any American/Western women, she does treat herself as a piece of "Object" who should be chased by a man.

Women, here, have failed to take advantage of the open society."

This statement is disgusting. It's obvious you have no understanding of women, much less American/Western women. You should be ashamed of yourself--we do not tolerate misogyny or hate speech here in this country. Maybe you should study this country's culture a little better before spewing such hatred.

I dress as I please, according to what the law allows--if a man cannot control himself because of what he sees, he is not a human being but a base animal.

"The idea that rape of women who dress seductively is justified is of course abhorrent. On the other hand, dressing seductively in public has the effect of sexually stimulating people whose amorous attention you do not seek. It seems to me that is not considerate of them or yourself, despite the fact that most people so stimulated don't commit rape."

This is also disgusting. Please stop blaming your overactive imagination on how others dress. If you can't handle what you see, I suggest you move to a single-sex environment. Because the fact is, no matter how women dress, a certain kind of man will try to talk to her. I have been followed while I was wearing sweat pants and a sweat shirt, for God's sake. It's not them, it's you. You are the problem.

Jerry, don't be so afraid.

There weren't 24 churches attacked because of the pope's comment. There were a few in Palestine, no less. Palestine: the most densely populated, poorest, impoverished, worst managed, poorly enducated urban region of the world. Under embargoes and military conflicts for years, a people truly suffering from mass disorders is equal to America? Really?
Or Iraq: under sanctions for over a decade, suffering from 3 loosing wars, infrastructure destroyed (bombed to the Stone Age, remember), chaos and killing, war famine, poverty everywhere is equal to America? Really?
So low are your standards.
No wonder Bush is looking more and more like a Middle Eastern dictator each day- he and his followers accept their low standards.

I don't know much about the Muslim community in Australia. I know Eid wasn't weeks ago. Al Hilali really was wrong and disgraced himself and his community. He should have counselled people to indeed leave Australia if they found they couldn't cope with the public life. He himself should have left if he couldn't stand it. Sadly, his ignorance and inability to properly lead his community in a positive direction rather than negative (tolerating and excusing rape is definitely negative), was a disservice to all people. HE has indeed stepped down and left Australia.

But what now?
Keep heaping up the blame and attacks on Muslims? No one in their right mind wants to live peacefully with hateful condescending folk. They want to go live in their separate enclaves away from the hatred and condescension.
America went through centuries of prejudice and violence between European immigrant groups (Gangs of New York anyone?) It wasn't until the 1960s until America began to tolerate and engage with people of nonEuropean ethnicity.
After 40 years, America may have its first US Congressman who is Muslim. I wonder how far Australia is in this matter? Are Muslims actually part of Australia? Are their local Muslim public officials? Are there community relations?

The problem with Usama's whitewashing is that he overlooks the glaring fact that while yes, hatred of other is not confinfed to fundamentalist Muslims, it is Muslim fundamentalists who are murdering thousands of people around the world in the name of their religion. So when the televangelists, who people barely watch in this country, are bigoted and hateful their words are tolerated because that's all they are, words. Jerry Falwell's followers aren't blowing up mosques or planes heading to the Middle East on Muslim holidays. That is a key difference and one that you can't whitewash. The hatred and condecension Muslims perceive in Western society come mainly from Muslims' unwillingness to become part of thse western society. That is exactly what Jack Straw and Tony Blair are talking about. In Western society, hiding your face is considered rude and dishonest and a sign that you want nothing to do do with everyone else. When people immigrate into a society, any society, it is incumbent upon the immigrant to adapt to the local customs and societal norms. The immigrants have no right to demand that their new societies conform to them.

Trust always in Reason

Archimedes

Actually, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center website, Neo Nazis and white supremacists have been enlisting into the arms services in order to gain training, organize and network within the military, and ultimately gain experience in using violence against nonAryan, nonChristian people.
Having a volunteer taxed funded military starving for people willing to kill does wonders to extremist violent tendencies. Just like Bush says he's waging war in Iraq to confront terror there instead of in America, white Christian militants enlist in the military to kill and destroy there but in preparation for here. SPLC: 50 Congressmen respond to SPLC report on extremists in military This matter is not a joke, according to actual political leaders.

If one takes the 655,000 deaths in Iraq related to the war and the dozens of war crimes related to American and coalition forces (including American mercenaries), and you have a number far exceeding the violence of Muslim radicals. Again, for Americans to compare themselves to the Muslim world in terms of violence is a serious mistake. The Muslim world is a mess. There are indeed violent extremists, but they are a result of failed states, corrupt and oppressive societies, and backward's misguidance. What's America's excuse?

As far as immigrants integrating with customs and mores, that is certainly depending on the requirements of the host nation. If English law doesn't require women to expose their faces when in public, then that is that. If Jack Straw wants to see a person's face when talking to them, then he should stop using the phone, email, computer, postal service, radio to communicate or listen to people.
He certainly could have dealt with this matter relative to the people who actually visit him (i.e. usually, formal American visitors to their Congressmen have to follow a protocol in prior notification, communication, etc. Straw could have done the same). Instead, Straw pressed a private protocol into a public conflict where men are assaulting women. Good job.

"Trust in Reason"?

I would say one should "Use Reason".

Yet another example of the west's hypocracy regarding freedom of speech

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